My kingdom for a modern 6-shot .38 snubbie - anyone else?

[ILoveSigs]

I would absolutely kill for a modern 6-shot .38 snubbie, +P rated, with a 2-inch barrel, lightweight alloy frame, internal hammer, and night sights. Basically a current Smith 640 Pro Series (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_766365_-1_757768_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y)

http://i.imgur.com/lHWzNpI.jpg

...but holding 6 shots instead of just 5.

What a fantastic little carry piece that would be. Anyone else feel the same way? I really wish Smith or...(yes, I dare) Colt (it's possible!) would get on this and make it. Oh, and I've always felt Ruger was making a massive mistake by not offering the SP101 as a 6-shot .38+P - if that cylinder can easily handle 5 rounds of full-power .357 Magnum (which it can) then it's plenty big enough to be able to handle 6 rounds of .38+P, no they wouldn't have to make it (or the frame) any bigger.

[Bigghoss]

I'd rather have mine in .357. I'm hoping Smith & Wesson makes a 2" or 3" model 66.

[ILoveSigs]

I'd rather have mine in .357. I'm hoping Smith & Wesson makes a 2" or 3" model 66.

In a snubbie?! No thank you. Of all the people who own a snubbie chambered in .357 (like the 640 above) I'd say 75% of them never have and never will fire even a single round of .357 Magnum in it (it'll be all .38 all the time), 90% will never once actually carry it with .357 (they'll use .38+P), and 95% won't carry it the majority of the time loaded with .357 (meaning that of those that do carry .357 in it, most will only do so occasionally, it won't be their usual carry load).

Also, what you want already exists: it's called the 686, and you can get those with 7 round capacities!

[WDW]

The differences between .38 & .357 are in length, not width. So saying a 5 shot .357 could be a 6 shot .38 doesnt really make sense. You sacrifice concealability when you widen that cylinder out to accept that 6th round. The closest thing to what you're wanting would be a snub model 10, 66, 19 or even a 2" 686.

[LSP972]

You sacrifice concealability when you widen that cylinder out to accept that 6th round.

Exactly. I have all three 'sizes' of super-light S&W wheel guns designed for concealed carry; a 342, a 12, and a 242, all with 2 or 2.5" barrels. The second two (especially the 242 L frame) are nowhere NEAR as concealable as the J frame.

The Colt Agent, with its shortened grip, is about as small as you're going to get a six-shooter. And it isn't in the same league, in terms of concealability, as a J frame. Simple physics applies here.

.

[jetfire]

Every night when I say my prayers I ask the Wheelgun Fairy for Ruger to please make a medium frame LCR-style revolver that holds six (or seven!) rounds of 38 and has a three inch barrel and a DAO hammer.

[Dagga Boy]

Every night when I say my prayers I ask the Wheelgun Fairy for Ruger to please make a medium frame LCR-style revolver that holds six (or seven!) rounds of 38 and has a three inch barrel and a DAO hammer.

Me too....:cool:

[ILoveSigs]

The differences between .38 & .357 are in length, not width. So saying a 5 shot .357 could be a 6 shot .38 doesnt really make sense. You sacrifice concealability when you widen that cylinder out to accept that 6th round. The closest thing to what you're wanting would be a snub model 10, 66, 19 or even a 2" 686.

You don't need anywhere near as much metal between rounds or between the rounds and the outside of the cylinder with .38 as you do with .357 due to the significant difference in pressure between the two cartridges, was my point. Maybe it would need to be a bit larger, but a 6-shot .357 cylinder will be noticeably bigger than an otherwise identical 6-shot .38+P cylinder due to the increased amount of metal needed to contain the significantly higher pressures of .357 Magnum.

[RevolverRob]

I'm going to tell you straight up - I have pocket carried a Colt Agent (alloy frame, six shots, 2" barrel) and I've pocket carried a 642. Dimensionally the guns are so close...but the difference between them is night and day. The thing is that extra round in the cylinder? It adds bulk in just the wrong place for pocket or ankle carry and it adds just enough weight to make a noticeable difference. And frankly, that's what 2" guns are best at, is the hideout/unconventional type of concealed carry. The J-Frame works better than any 6-shot gun could. Sorry, I know it's a bit of a downer, but it's the truth.

The 6-7 shot gun Caleb and Nyeti are wishing for, the 3" LCR67 - That is a damn near perfect belt revolver in medium caliber, something that is the screaming successor to the 3" heavy barrel, fixed sight, K-Frame. Or maybe a little more like a 3" Model 12 or 3" Colt D-Frame, not as chunky as the 3" GP100, 3" L-Frame. I have a 3" D-Frame and a 3" K-Frame and the differences between them, again, you almost need a pair of calipers to detect, but they make all the difference in the world, in the way the guns carry, with the Colt being that much nicer, because it is just a little bit smaller, in all the right ways.

-Rob

[ILoveSigs]

I'm going to tell you straight up - I have pocket carried a Colt Agent (alloy frame, six shots, 2" barrel) and I've pocket carried a 642. Dimensionally the guns are so close...but the difference between them is night and day. The thing is that extra round in the cylinder? It adds bulk in just the wrong place for pocket or ankle carry and it adds just enough weight to make a noticeable difference. And frankly, that's what 2" guns are best at, is the hideout/unconventional type of concealed carry. The J-Frame works better than any 6-shot gun could. Sorry, I know it's a bit of a downer, but it's the truth.

The 6-7 shot gun Caleb and Nyeti are wishing for, the 3" LCR67 - That is a damn near perfect belt revolver in medium caliber, something that is the screaming successor to the 3" heavy barrel, fixed sight, K-Frame. Or maybe a little more like a 3" Model 12 or 3" Colt D-Frame, not as chunky as the 3" GP100, 3" L-Frame. I have a 3" D-Frame and a 3" K-Frame and the differences between them, again, you almost need a pair of calipers to detect, but they make all the difference in the world, in the way the guns carry, with the Colt being that much nicer, because it is just a little bit smaller, in all the right ways.

-Rob

I would be interested in carrying this on my belt, so none of that's a problem. I wouldn't be carrying it on my ankle or in my pocket. I actually have a Colt DS (1978) I've carried a bit in a Bell Charter Oak Chicago Rocker and I've been very pleased with it, it's just that I'd like essentially a modern version of that as described in my original post (alloy frame, night sites, internal hammer, etc.).

[pangloss]

Well if you are willing to compromise on caliber, you can get a 6 shot J frame in 32H&R mag. I think it is ballistically superior to 380ACP by a small margin. I like my 432PD but ammo can be hard to find at times.

[Totem Polar]

Every night when I say my prayers I ask the Wheelgun Fairy for Ruger to please make a medium frame LCR-style revolver that holds six (or seven!) rounds of 38 and has a three inch barrel and a DAO hammer.

Me three. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: this (assuming it shoots to POA).

[jetfire]

Me three. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: this (assuming it shoots to POA).

Adjustable sights would be a good idea for a medium frame gun.

[Hambo]

Every night when I say my prayers I ask the Wheelgun Fairy for Ruger to please make a medium frame LCR-style revolver that holds six (or seven!) rounds of 38 and has a three inch barrel and a DAO hammer.

I just pray that S&W's PC will make their 8 shot 627 with a 3" barrel and that somebody will make speedloaders...

but back on topic, there were 6 shot .327s if you absolutely had to have another round.

[1986s4]

Since S&W has decided to re-introduce the M66 how hard would it be to put a 3" barrel on it? If they were really dipping in the crazy sauce they could make one with a 3" barrel and fixed sights.. Same frame improvements.

Come on S&W, that's a current S&W I would buy.

[BN]

http://charterfirearms.com/products/Charter_Undercover_73840.asp

Here you go. ;)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

There are 6 shot 327 J frames in SS out there. Just not made anymore. Also, 432s - but in 32 HR mag. I saw someone say there was another run of 432's recently made - but I don't know. The 32 HRs and 327 are in the SW archives the last time I looked. I have a 432 and it is a very nice light pocket gun. I also have a SS 632 (with the hammer out) and comp'ed. 3 " barrel - and it is very sweet 6 shot revolver for my little hands. It is a world of difference from a K frame for me.

I also have a Colt Cobra snubby and it's a fun shooter. My daughter likes it - but it's not a pocket gun.

[ILoveSigs]

Since S&W has decided to re-introduce the M66 how hard would it be to put a 3" barrel on it? If they were really dipping in the crazy sauce they could make one with a 3" barrel and fixed sights.. Same frame improvements.

Come on S&W, that's a current S&W I would buy.

Absolutely, my only issue with that would be the inevitable internal lock it would have which, to me, makes it entirely unsuitable for a defensive gun and therefore pointless (what else are you going to use a 3" M66 for?).

[Hambo]

If they were really dipping in the crazy sauce they could make one with a 3" barrel and fixed sights.. Same frame improvements.

That's called a 3" M65.

[Tamara]

Find you a Model 242.

[Hizzie]

Find you a Model 242.

Had one. Sold it. Shoulda been a K instead of an L.

[RevolverRob]

I would be interested in carrying this on my belt, so none of that's a problem. I wouldn't be carrying it on my ankle or in my pocket. I actually have a Colt DS (1978) I've carried a bit in a Bell Charter Oak Chicago Rocker and I've been very pleased with it, it's just that I'd like essentially a modern version of that as described in my original post (alloy frame, night sites, internal hammer, etc.).

Well we're split there. If I belt carry a gun, I go to a 3" gun, because easier to shoot, at least for me. And the trade off in concealed carry size is very minimal (unlike the difference between a 3" gun and a 4" gun).

But still close to what you are are describing is the the LCR-67 that Caleb described above. I honestly think a 6-shot, .38 +P, 3" LCR, with concealed hammer and night sights, would be the bees knees when it comes to concealed carry revolvers. But I wonder if they don't make it, because it would eat up the share of the Wiley Clapp GP100s...Or maybe I am wrong and they are thinking of making it, because of the sales of those WC GP100s.

-Rob

[jetfire]

The Clapp guns are special editions though, not really regular catalog models. I honestly think the reason Ruger won't make an LCR--67 like we're describing is that they'd probably only sell them to the few remaining diehard wheelgun guys. Selling 500 guns doesn't really justify the r&d costs.

[Totem Polar]

^^^harshing my mellow, dude. So what you're saying is the idea of extending your line even further to include the 5-shot .44 special version of the same is "unicorn and open carry in NYC" territory...

[jetfire]

^^^harshing my mellow, dude. So what you're saying is the idea of extending your line even further to include the 5-shot .44 special version of the same is "unicorn and open carry in NYC" territory...

On the gripping hand, Smif is selling the Model 69 as fast as they can make them.

[Wheeler]

Get a 2" Model 12, have the hammer bobbed, problem solved.

[LSP972]

Had one. Sold it. Shoulda been a K instead of an L.

Yup. I have kept mine, but only because it so... special snow flakish?

It would make a good parka (as in, BIG coat) pocket piece, but since one needs a heavy coat maybe three days per year around here...

OTOH, I think it would make a splendid belt gun. I very well may put that to the test before it's all over.

.

[Totem Polar]

Get a 2" Model 12, have the hammer bobbed, problem solved.

Funny that: I have a 2" model 12-3. Love that gun; one of the great EDC wheelies of old. Mine is not a monogamous revolver lifestyle, however. :D

[Alpha Sierra]

Absolutely, my only issue with that would be the inevitable internal lock it would have which, to me, makes it entirely unsuitable for a defensive gun and therefore pointless (what else are you going to use a 3" M66 for?).

You do know that removing the locking arm out of the gun is relatively easy, right? And that removal creates zero unintended fuctional problems?

I'd buy a new 3" Model 66 with adjustable sights in a flash.

[Tamara]

Funny that: I have a 2" model 12-3. Love that gun; one of the great EDC wheelies of old. Mine is not a monogamous revolver lifestyle, however. :D

Sadly, my 12-2 dates to roughly 1966 and I just don't trust older Airweights that much. I know it would probably be fine, but I've seen too many really old ones crack their frames where the barrel shank screws in. Mine's likely plenty safe for standard pressure ammo, but why take chances on an older gun when I have newer shooters that fill pretty much the same niche? My 296 fits all the same holsters, after all...

[LSP972]

You do know that removing the locking arm out of the gun is relatively easy, right? And that removal creates zero unintended fuctional problems?



Actually, it sets the gun up for catastrophic failure. Removal of the "flag" (what you refer to as the locking arm) does indeed render the lock inoperative. It also leaves 1.5mm of empty space between the remaining mechanism and the hammer. If the gun is fired much after this, the remaining mechanism can become dislodged from its place in the frame, actually fall into the action, and lock the gun up just as surely as if the lock was intact and activated.

This is not speculation on my part; it happened to my M-360PD, and I know of two other instances of it happening. There are two, and ONLY two, ways to get rid of that communist lock that do not present other potential hazards.

1) Remove the flag like you said, grind off the nub that locks the hammer, and re-install the flag. Without that nub, no locking of the hammer can occur. And the rest of the mechanism is still supported. It can still work loose, but all that will happen is the flag/lever/locking arm, whatever you choose to call it, will rub against the hammer. This will certainly negatively affect your trigger pull, but if the nub has been ground smooth, it won't stop the hammer from moving.

2) Remove the entire mechanism and install The Plug. You must be VERY careful when knocking out the circular lock mechanism that is pressed into the frame, but other than that it is a no-brainer.

Not trying to bust your chops here, but I see this bad advice from time to time, and its a recipe for trouble. Fortunately, it happened on the range with my piece. Approximate round count was 3K; almost all of which were wadcutters. And I fell into the old "I'm an armorer, I know what I'm doing" trick. When I purchased that revolver in 2002, I had not bought a new gun in almost ten years. The lock was new, I'd never heard of it; I purchased the revolver sight unseen/NIB from a colleague with an FFL, and when I saw the lock I was like... ?????

And rather than looking at it closely, studying it, I saw immediately that removing the flag would deactivate it... so that's what I did. I carried that thing daily, shot it monthly, and five years later got a very nasty surprise.

FYI, YMMV, etc., etc.

.

[LSP972]

Sadly, my 12-2 dates to roughly 1966 and I just don't trust older Airweights that much. I know it would probably be fine, but I've seen too many really old ones crack their frames where the barrel shank screws in. .

Truth. Mine sees very little "action" for the same reasons.

And S&W won't touch it with a ten foot pole (as far as repairing it). Found that out when I inquired about having a three inch M-13 barrel put on mine. If it cracks, they will replace the gun with something comparable... and with a lock.

.

[Malamute]

Actually, it sets the gun up for catastrophic failure. Removal of the "flag" (what you refer to as the locking arm) does indeed render the lock inoperative. It also leaves 1.5mm of empty space between the remaining mechanism and the hammer. If the gun is fired much after this, the remaining mechanism can become dislodged from its place in the frame, actually fall into the action, and lock the gun up just as surely as if the lock was intact and activated.

This is not speculation on my part; it happened to my M-360PD, and I know of two other instances of it happening. There are two, and ONLY two, ways to get rid of that communist lock that do not present other potential hazards.

.


I wonder if the proper lubricant (http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/10/15/t_lkr_red/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Red-271.htm) product were applied to the lock if it would stay in position more reliably?

[oldtexan]

I would absolutely kill for a modern 6-shot .38 snubbie, +P rated, with a 2-inch barrel, lightweight alloy frame, internal hammer, and night sights. Basically a current Smith 640 Pro Series (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_766365_-1_757768_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y)

http://i.imgur.com/lHWzNpI.jpg

...but holding 6 shots instead of just 5.

What a fantastic little carry piece that would be. Anyone else feel the same way? I really wish Smith or...(yes, I dare) Colt (it's possible!) would get on this and make it. Oh, and I've always felt Ruger was making a massive mistake by not offering the SP101 as a 6-shot .38+P - if that cylinder can easily handle 5 rounds of full-power .357 Magnum (which it can) then it's plenty big enough to be able to handle 6 rounds of .38+P, no they wouldn't have to make it (or the frame) any bigger.


I don't understand why S&W hasn't put that superb dovetail rear sight on some of its lighter weight j frames.

[LSP972]

I wonder if the proper lubricant (http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/10/15/t_lkr_red/overview/Loctite-Threadlocker-Red-271.htm) product were applied to the lock if it would stay in position more reliably?

I wouldn't trust it. Threadlocker stuff is designed hold against tension; what knocks that circular mechanism loose is shear force (from recoil).

.

[Alpha Sierra]

Actually, it sets the gun up for catastrophic failure. Removal of the "flag" (what you refer to as the locking arm) does indeed render the lock inoperative. It also leaves 1.5mm of empty space between the remaining mechanism and the hammer. If the gun is fired much after this, the remaining mechanism can become dislodged from its place in the frame, actually fall into the action, and lock the gun up just as surely as if the lock was intact and activated.

This is not speculation on my part; it happened to my M-360PD, and I know of two other instances of it happening. There are two, and ONLY two, ways to get rid of that communist lock that do not present other potential hazards.

1) Remove the flag like you said, grind off the nub that locks the hammer, and re-install the flag. Without that nub, no locking of the hammer can occur. And the rest of the mechanism is still supported. It can still work loose, but all that will happen is the flag/lever/locking arm, whatever you choose to call it, will rub against the hammer. This will certainly negatively affect your trigger pull, but if the nub has been ground smooth, it won't stop the hammer from moving.

2) Remove the entire mechanism and install The Plug. You must be VERY careful when knocking out the circular lock mechanism that is pressed into the frame, but other than that it is a no-brainer.

Not trying to bust your chops here, but I see this bad advice from time to time, and its a recipe for trouble. Fortunately, it happened on the range with my piece. Approximate round count was 3K; almost all of which were wadcutters. And I fell into the old "I'm an armorer, I know what I'm doing" trick. When I purchased that revolver in 2002, I had not bought a new gun in almost ten years. The lock was new, I'd never heard of it; I purchased the revolver sight unseen/NIB from a colleague with an FFL, and when I saw the lock I was like... ?????

And rather than looking at it closely, studying it, I saw immediately that removing the flag would deactivate it... so that's what I did. I carried that thing daily, shot it monthly, and five years later got a very nasty surprise.

FYI, YMMV, etc., etc.

.
Understood.

I've done it both ways. A 65-8 that I used to have got the lock arm and lock arm spring removed and got shot for thousands of rounds in IDPA without a failure. My occasional carry 637-2 has had the stud ground off the lock arm with the arm and return spring re-installed.

I think the reason my 65 did not have the problem that happened to you is luck. Being a much heavier pistol and with the key cylinder pressed into stainless steel instead of aluminum.

But I agree, if there is a chance the lock cylinder will fall out of its hole it's best to either keep the lock arm with the stud ground off or remove everything.

BTW, where can I find "The Plug"?

[LSP972]

BTW, where can I find "The Plug"?

Check the S&W Forum. Guy used to have an ad there, but its referenced in several stickies, I think. He's old school (no web site, but I seem to recall a "blog" or some such with photos); I know I had to send him the coin via snail mail.

Stupid simple, and durable. I've had one in that 360PD since 2008, and about 2K more rounds; still doing the job.

.

[serialsolver]

Look in the for sale section were accessories and part is listed.


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[Alpha Sierra]

OK thanks.

[Bigghoss]

In a snubbie?! No thank you. Of all the people who own a snubbie chambered in .357 (like the 640 above) I'd say 75% of them never have and never will fire even a single round of .357 Magnum in it (it'll be all .38 all the time), 90% will never once actually carry it with .357 (they'll use .38+P), and 95% won't carry it the majority of the time loaded with .357 (meaning that of those that do carry .357 in it, most will only do so occasionally, it won't be their usual carry load).

Also, what you want already exists: it's called the 686, and you can get those with 7 round capacities!

I carry and shoot my SP101 with .357 loads plenty. Used to have a S&W 19-3, which is about as small as you can make a 6-shot .38 or.357 cylinder, that I shot .357's out of and it wasn't a problem for me.

The 686 is not a K-frame, 7 shots = larger cylinder.

[Tamara]

Used to have a S&W 19-3, which is about as small as you can make a 6-shot .38 or.357 cylinder...

Which barrel length? I've found that even with the lack of an underlug to add weight to the muzzle, full rock'n'roll .357 loads are sportier out of a 2.5" K than a 4" or 6" gun, if only due to the increase in muzzle blast.

[Malamute]

Which barrel length? I've found that even with the lack of an underlug to add weight to the muzzle, full rock'n'roll .357 loads are sportier out of a 2.5" K than a 4" or 6" gun, if only due to the increase in muzzle blast.

A 2 1/2" 19 was what pretty well got me out of the 357 mood. The only way I choose to describe the muzzle blast with 125 gr factory magnums is hideous. I'd much rather shoot a 44 mag in a 4" gun.

Guess it doesnt bother some. I sold the gun. I miss it because its cute, I really dont miss shooting it.

[Tamara]

A 2 1/2" 19 was what pretty well got me out of the 357 mood. The only way I choose to describe the muzzle blast with 125 gr factory magnums is hideous. I'd much rather shoot a 44 mag in a 4" gun.

It's funny you should mention those two bbl lengths, because I still remember the time Marko and I took his 2.5" 686 and 4" Anaconda to the range many years ago, and the only ammo we had was some relatively tepid American Eagle .44 Mag and full house Remington 110gr SJHPs. The muzzle blast from the .44 was muted compared to the noisy, white flash-bang grenade every time you pulled the trigger on the Smif.

[Chuck Haggard]

I used to carry the 110gr WWB magnums in my 640 when I used that for a BUG, because flash-bang

[Jeep]

I used to carry the 110gr WWB magnums in my 640 when I used that for a BUG, because flash-bang

Flash-bang is good, but how are your wrists and hands these days after shooting 110 magnums in a 640?

[Chuck Haggard]

Flash-bang is good, but how are your wrists and hands these days after shooting 110 magnums in a 640?

Those were rather low recoil actually. It was the cases of 125gr, the bunches of 158-180gr, the .44s, .45s.............. that did me in.

[RevolverRob]

I used to carry the 110gr WWB magnums in my 640 when I used that for a BUG, because flash-bang

If you're going to carry a magnum snubbie, loaded with magnums, you might as well get the full effect. Shoot the bad guy and set him on fire.

[Bigghoss]

Which barrel length? I've found that even with the lack of an underlug to add weight to the muzzle, full rock'n'roll .357 loads are sportier out of a 2.5" K than a 4" or 6" gun, if only due to the increase in muzzle blast.

My 19 was a 4" but as I mentioned I also shoot an SP101 and have shot others. Used to have a POS Taurus 605 that I shot a good bit with full power loads. Until it broke. Twice.

I'm hoping S&W brings out a snub 66.

[wsr]

You don't need anywhere near as much metal between rounds or between the rounds and the outside of the cylinder with .38 as you do with .357 due to the significant difference in pressure between the two cartridges, was my point. Maybe it would need to be a bit larger, but a 6-shot .357 cylinder will be noticeably bigger than an otherwise identical 6-shot .38+P cylinder due to the increased amount of metal needed to contain the significantly higher pressures of .357 Magnum.

Ever compared a K frame cylinder in 38 special to a K frame cylinder in 357 mag???

[jh9]

Ever compared a K frame cylinder in 38 special to a K frame cylinder in 357 mag???

I think he was implying if you start with a clean sheet of paper you can make the .38 cylinder smaller since the round is lower pressure. I guess the go-to example would be the LCR. Not only does the magnum use steel instead of aluminum for the upper frame but I think the cylinder is fatter across the length of it. The 38 LCR cylinder is, TBH, almost too skinny looking toward the front. They shaved a *lot* of metal off that thing compared to a comparable S&W J-frame cylinder, and the final product shows it.

[Wheeler]

Ever compared a K frame cylinder in 38 special to a K frame cylinder in 357 mag???

Or a J frame for that matter...

[serialsolver]

All that drama with the 125 mags is why I keep 158 mags in my m66 snubby.


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[ragnar_d]

I don't understand why S&W hasn't put that superb dovetail rear sight on some of its lighter weight j frames.
I've thought the same thing many, many times.

[Chuck Haggard]

If you're going to carry a magnum snubbie, loaded with magnums, you might as well get the full effect. Shoot the bad guy and set him on fire.

I was running that gun and ammo combo during the '90s, I was also doing a LOT of car stops after dark, and during a time where we had a LOT of violent crime locally. As in a higher per capita crime rate than LA

The 640 was my left hand gun, and was often being gripped when I made a driver's side approach. My plan was to start with the 640 as I backed out of the oh shit zone, and drop it for my duty gun if I needed to.

Anyway, I liked that plan rather well at the time.

[serialsolver]

That sounded like my plan also but I was gonna use a 340pd.


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[Jeep]

Those were rather low recoil actually. It was the cases of 125gr, the bunches of 158-180gr, the .44s, .45s.............. that did me in.


Yep. You probably hardly noticed them at the time, but years later they start taking their revenge. Funny how that works.

[wsr]

I think he was implying if you start with a clean sheet of paper you can make the .38 cylinder smaller since the round is lower pressure. I guess the go-to example would be the LCR. Not only does the magnum use steel instead of aluminum for the upper frame but I think the cylinder is fatter across the length of it. The 38 LCR cylinder is, TBH, almost too skinny looking toward the front. They shaved a *lot* of metal off that thing compared to a comparable S&W J-frame cylinder, and the final product shows it.

look at the rear of a loaded 38/357 K frame cylinder the rims are almost touching...the K frame is about as small of a form factor as you are gonna git with a six shot 38/357

[Wheeler]

I think he was implying if you start with a clean sheet of paper you can make the .38 cylinder smaller since the round is lower pressure. I guess the go-to example would be the LCR. Not only does the magnum use steel instead of aluminum for the upper frame but I think the cylinder is fatter across the length of it. The 38 LCR cylinder is, TBH, almost too skinny looking toward the front. They shaved a *lot* of metal off that thing compared to a comparable S&W J-frame cylinder, and the final product shows it.

Those particular types of cylinder flutes are not unique to the LCR, nor is Ruger the first to use that design style. High Standard did that about 55 years ago.
The pressure issues on the cylinders are not in the cosmetic features of the cylinders, but calculated into the thickness of the steel between the cylinder walls and the outside of the cylinder as well as the type of steel used.

[Ad Orientem]

Sadly they are no longer in production, but if you are looking for a six shot snubby and can find one, I'd snap it up....

http://www.taurususa.com/images/imagesMain/856SS2.jpg
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=614&category=Pistol

[jetfire]

Sadly they are no longer in production, but if you are looking for a six shot snubby and can find one, I'd snap it up....

http://www.taurususa.com/images/imagesMain/856SS2.jpg
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=614&category=Pistol

Lol, of course. Why is it that Taurus has so many neat ideas, but is so incompetent they'd fuck up a wet dream?

[Totem Polar]

Sadly they are no longer in production, but if you are looking for a six shot snubby and can find one, I'd snap it up....

http://www.taurususa.com/images/imagesMain/856SS2.jpg
http://www.taurususa.com/product-details.cfm?id=614&category=Pistol
Apropos of not much, but I remember the ad campaign: "The all-important 6th shot" and Mas Ayoob's tongue-in-cheek response "if any shot is going to be all-important, it's probably the first one..."
:D

[Chuck Haggard]

That would be a good sized gun for carry, if it wasn't a Taurus

[1slow]

Lately unfortunately, Tauri = Cleti.

[Trajan]

That 640 Pro is hot. Never seen that one before. I too wish S&W put a real rear sight on their J-frames. Granted for the job most use them for, only seeing the front sight is sufficient I guess.

Is it me, or do the new Smiths not have the same solid feel as the older ones?

[LSP972]

Is it me, or do the new Smiths not have the same solid feel as the older ones?

Its not you.

.

[Jeep]

Its not you.

.

^^^^^This^^^^^

[ILoveSigs]

I think he was implying if you start with a clean sheet of paper you can make the .38 cylinder smaller since the round is lower pressure. I guess the go-to example would be the LCR. Not only does the magnum use steel instead of aluminum for the upper frame but I think the cylinder is fatter across the length of it. The 38 LCR cylinder is, TBH, almost too skinny looking toward the front. They shaved a *lot* of metal off that thing compared to a comparable S&W J-frame cylinder, and the final product shows it.

Correct.

[NEPAKevin]

If its of any interest, saw an ad on the Pennsy forum for a 2" model 64-4 (http://forum.pafoa.org/firearms-6/275369-s-w-model-64-stainless-38-spl-2-barrel-box.html)

[Captain]

As a non-revolver owner, is the issue at hand here being able to pocket carry the gun? Because there are definitely medium frame revolvers on S&W's website with a sub 3" barrel and 6 shots of .357.

Serious question - I'm trying to learn about revolvers and what people look for in them. Personally I can't fathom carrying any gun in my pocket, but that's probably because they're full of so much other crap.

[Wheeler]

As a non-revolver owner, is the issue at hand here being able to pocket carry the gun? Because there are definitely medium frame revolvers on S&W's website with a sub 3" barrel and 6 shots of .357.

Serious question - I'm trying to learn about revolvers and what people look for in them. Personally I can't fathom carrying any gun in my pocket, but that's probably because they're full of so much other crap.

In my personal order of preference:
Reliability
Accuracy
Acceptable sights
What niche does it fit into?
Caliber
Aesthetics

Pocket carry is another form of carry that one should determine what needs to be arranged to accommodate the gun and holster.

[iveschris]

I've been struggling with this issue ("Hi, my name's Chris and I have a revolver problem…"). Saw a pristine S&W 15-3 nickel today (with no drag line; looked unfired) snubbie (square butt) at the LGS. The shop had $499 on it. "Great!" my first response was: no lock; great shape; real sights. But….

I found out running my two snubbies hard a while ago (needed a seated gun - ankle holster - or overcoat gun (pocket) capability for some surveillance) that I suck with any guns like this without both a front and rear sight unless the task only requires shooting someone off of me. My lessons learned from those range sessions at first made the '15 attractive but then the opportunity cost equation kicked in, you know, in the rational part of the brain. That investment also could represent a good, used Glock 30 (primary EDC is a '21SF), for example.

What's a guy to do?

I have come up with a rationale for carrying wheel guns - outside of griz' country out West; different issue - but that's not been enough actually to go retro for wheel gun carry. The wheel guns are out there (witness the shoot ability and relative value of the Ruger WC GP100s and Match Champions), but other than because you can why should you?

Obviously your operational environment, threat levels, legal requirements to use deadly force (or not), and such greatly vary. But any sort of tactical calculus like looking at Tom Givens' students outcomes in their Memphis deadly force encounters would lead you to conclude that the gun handling advantages of semi auto seem to trump those of a wheel gun.

[LSP972]

... to conclude that the gun handling advantages of semi auto seem to trump those of a wheel gun.

Until the range shortens to bad-breath distance. There is a reason many folks choose a revolver for their "car gun".

You mentioned seated surveillance. Some of the reasons you desire a handy, quickly-deployable handgun for that purpose also apply when your assailant is within arm's reach. You need something that will fire repeatedly if in actual contact- as in, pressed against his body, or yours- with the bad guy (a semi-auto will usually give you ONE round before it pukes here), AND something that will fire repeatedly despite a less-than-optimum grip on the gun. Remember, a semi-auto requires a firm "platform" to push against for reliable cycling.

No one here will dispute that, for straight-up trading shots with somebody, the semi-auto is almost always superior. But the revolver has its niche, and in fact today is limited as a general-purpose fighting tool only by its lack of capacity. Back when I first carried a revolver on duty, that wasn't seen as an issue; multiple assailant gunfights were quite rare. Once the 80s got to rolling along, that viewpoint changed. Bad guys began to run in packs, and started carrying (and using against the cops) serious iron, instead of the once-usual "Saturday Night Special" junk guns.

You will hear a lot of die-hard revolver guys poo-poohing that logic for the armed citizen, saying it doesn't apply to them, etc. And it probably doesn't. Until it does.

I can tell you this… I work at a large state crime lab as a firearms technician. I've been there five years; its a primo retirement gig. Daily, I see exactly what kinds of guns the local cops/troopers/deputies are taking off the street. And it ain't junk. It USED to be… not any more. In fact, I saw my first RG-10 in over two years the other day. That POS personifies the term Saturday Night Special, and used to be a staple of common street thugs. Nowadays, its S&W Sigmas, Glocks, and Ruger P-series leading the pack… and over NINETY PERCENT of seized handguns passing through our facility are semi-autos.

No self-respecting gang banger would be caught dead with a wheel gun. The "automatic" is what they want… and our local street trash disguised as wanna-be rappers have, over the past six months, begun to prefer .45 ACP for some reason. Before, it was 9mm and "fo-tay".

Anyway… if I KNEW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that any lethal force encounter I would have, as a retiree/citizen (IOW, no aggressive pursuit of criminals like I used to do) would be one-on-one, or even two-on-one, I would have no qualms about carrying a revolver as a primary. Those days are gone, despite what some "experts" will have you believe.

That said… I also carry a revolver every day… but as a secondary. Part of the reason is because I've had one or another flavor of S&W J frame strapped to my ass almost every day since coming on the job in 1978; old habits being hard to break, and all of that. But I have resisted the "new deal"/conventional wisdom/etc. that says small, flat .380s are the new wave in back-up guns. The reasons are involved and beyond the scope of this post; besides, that's one of those topics that can get heated, and I avoid controversy these days. Everybody has to decide for themselves, etc., etc.

I guess the point of this barely-coherent rambling is that revolvers still are indeed VERY viable as a self defense piece, within the parameters of their pluses and minuses. But as Tom Givens says, these days the aware, armed citizen needs a "three-bad-guy gun"… and his studies have shown that determined attackers can absorb up to three rounds before stopping (that might include misses by the defender, don't remember exactly). But, if you choose a revolver as your primary… best carry at least two…;)

.

[Jeep]

Until the range shortens to bad-breath distance. There is a reason many folks choose a revolver for their "car gun".

You mentioned seated surveillance. Some of the reasons you desire a handy, quickly-deployable handgun for that purpose also apply when your assailant is within arm's reach. You need something that will fire repeatedly if in actual contact- as in, pressed against his body, or yours- with the bad guy (a semi-auto will usually give you ONE round before it pukes here), AND something that will fire repeatedly despite a less-than-optimum grip on the gun. Remember, a semi-auto requires a firm "platform" to push against for reliable cycling.

No one here will dispute that, for straight-up trading shots with somebody, the semi-auto is almost always superior. But the revolver has its niche, and in fact today is limited as a general-purpose fighting tool only by its lack of capacity. Back when I first carried a revolver on duty, that wasn't seen as an issue; multiple assailant gunfights were quite rare. Once the 80s got to rolling along, that viewpoint changed. Bad guys began to run in packs, and started carrying (and using against the cops) serious iron, instead of the once-usual "Saturday Night Special" junk guns.

You will hear a lot of die-hard revolver guys poo-poohing that logic for the armed citizen, saying it doesn't apply to them, etc. And it probably doesn't. Until it does.

I can tell you this… I work at a large state crime lab as a firearms technician. I've been there five years; its a primo retirement gig. Daily, I see exactly what kinds of guns the local cops/troopers/deputies are taking off the street. And it ain't junk. It USED to be… not any more. In fact, I saw my first RG-10 in over two years the other day. That POS personifies the term Saturday Night Special, and used to be a staple of common street thugs. Nowadays, its S&W Sigmas, Glocks, and Ruger P-series leading the pack… and over NINETY PERCENT of seized handguns passing through our facility are semi-autos.

No self-respecting gang banger would be caught dead with a wheel gun. The "automatic" is what they want… and our local street trash disguised as wanna-be rappers have, over the past six months, begun to prefer .45 ACP for some reason. Before, it was 9mm and "fo-tay".

Anyway… if I KNEW, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that any lethal force encounter I would have, as a retiree/citizen (IOW, no aggressive pursuit of criminals like I used to do) would be one-on-one, or even two-on-one, I would have no qualms about carrying a revolver as a primary. Those days are gone, despite what some "experts" will have you believe.

That said… I also carry a revolver every day… but as a secondary. Part of the reason is because I've had one or another flavor of S&W J frame strapped to my ass almost every day since coming on the job in 1978; old habits being hard to break, and all of that. But I have resisted the "new deal"/conventional wisdom/etc. that says small, flat .380s are the new wave in back-up guns. The reasons are involved and beyond the scope of this post; besides, that's one of those topics that can get heated, and I avoid controversy these days. Everybody has to decide for themselves, etc., etc.

I guess the point of this barely-coherent rambling is that revolvers still are indeed VERY viable as a self defense piece, within the parameters of their pluses and minuses. But as Tom Givens says, these days the aware, armed citizen needs a "three-bad-guy gun"… and his studies have shown that determined attackers can absorb up to three rounds before stopping (that might include misses by the defender, don't remember exactly). But, if you choose a revolver as your primary… best carry at least two…;)

.

LSP: That was an outstanding summary of a lot of data but let me ask a question. How much of your analysis is driven by Baton Rogue (or in Tom Given's case, Memphis)? I ask, because where I live we have a lot of kids in drug gangs killing each other, but surprisingly enough, not a lot of armed robberies. So long as I stay out of certain neighborhoods my chance of an armed confrontation is effectively zero.

Now, there is also a college town nearby, and like most college towns, it has a lot of street crime, often with packs of 3-5 thugs who are sometimes armed. The threat there is far greater than where I live and I would adjust my calculus accordingly.

Anyway, does your local crime environment drive your conclusions?

[Chuck Haggard]

We all weight our chances through the lens of experience.

I had an interesting conversation with one of the most experienced gunfighters on the planet right now, a guy that has worked for a three letter agency overseas for better than 33 years, and a serious gun guy with serious training, he "gets it". He is carrying a J frame CONUS now as it fits his needs. He does put 2000-3000 rounds through it a year though.

I in no way discount Tom Givens' CCW student shooting data, or what I have seen locally, and I tend to carry as Tom would suggest, I just find some folks experiences and decisions interesting.

[LSP972]

Anyway, does your local crime environment drive your conclusions?

For the most part. What is most illuminating, to me, is the change in "tactics", if you will, by the roaches.

In the past (in venues I was familiar with, basically the state of Louisiana), the roaches tended to "stay in their lane". IOW, there was their turf, there was "decent citizen" turf, and there were a few free-fire zones where both societal elements co-mingled (shopping malls, etc.). But over the past few years, they seem to have become emboldened- by what, I'll leave unsaid, but you know what I'm talking about- and have begun showing up at places we never used to see them.

A prime example here in Baton Rouge is a new development called Perkins Rowe. Its a several-acre tract of upscale shops/restaurants, smack in the middle of Yuppie Central. Needless to say, Chip and Muffy are primo targets. Not long after it opened, there were several incidents that were... well, "hushed up" isn't exactly correct, but the actual circumstances as officially reported were, shall we say, cloudy (I'd never heard a gunshot explained away as an exploding golf cart tire, but hey, whatever works, right???). An immediate and agressive response by our local, very capable sheriff's office, did the trick... for now. By that, I mean they convinced the opportunists they might have better luck elsewhere.

In other news, a very nice movie theater complex, not far from Perkins Rowe, recently shut down because the crowds of... lets use the term "shady characters"... hanging about, holding up walls and columns (via leaning against them) and doing some harassment of the paying customers. So said paying customers stopped going there. A new movie complex opened at the "good mall", and our intrepid opportunists now infest that place on week-end nights. There have been numerous gang fights and several shootings there; all perpetrated by the savages.

My point to all of this is that the oft-repeated mantra that "I don't go to dangerous/undesirable places, therefore I have little to worry about" is, at best, a hollow refrain these days... at least, it is around here. I think I've mentioned this before, but my retirement dream was shorts, flip-flops, a J frame and a Speed Strip. Katrina blew all of that out of the water, because much of the flotsam, jetsam, and downright trash that was swept into here as a result... stayed. And they're snapping to the fact that the cops have been double-gloved in regards to what they can do to ensure the savages behave themselves around everybody else.

PC bullshit prevents me from saying any more, but I hope that answered your question.

.

[Jeep]

We all weight our chances through the lens of experience.

I had an interesting conversation with one of the most experienced gunfighters on the planet right now, a guy that has worked for a three letter agency overseas for better than 33 years, and a serious gun guy with serious training, he "gets it". He is carrying a J frame CONUS now as it fits his needs. He does put 2000-3000 rounds through it a year though.

I in no way discount Tom Givens' CCW student shooting data, or what I have seen locally, and I tend to carry as Tom would suggest, I just find some folks experiences and decisions interesting.

I didn't know that a lightweight J frame could take a diet of 2-3,000 rounds per year. Is he carrying a steel gun by any chance?

[Jeep]

For the most part. What is most illuminating, to me, is the change in "tactics", if you will, by the roaches.

In the past (in venues I was familiar with, basically the state of Louisiana), the roaches tended to "stay in their lane". IOW, there was their turf, there was "decent citizen" turf, and there were a few free-fire zones where both societal elements co-mingled (shopping malls, etc.). But over the past few years, they seem to have become emboldened- by what, I'll leave unsaid, but you know what I'm talking about- and have begun showing up at places we never used to see them.

A prime example here in Baton Rouge is a new development called Perkins Rowe. Its a several-acre tract of upscale shops/restaurants, smack in the middle of Yuppie Central. Needless to say, Chip and Muffy are primo targets. Not long after it opened, there were several incidents that were... well, "hushed up" isn't exactly correct, but the actual circumstances as officially reported were, shall we say, cloudy (I'd never heard a gunshot explained away as an exploding golf cart tire, but hey, whatever works, right???). An immediate and agressive response by our local, very capable sheriff's office, did the trick... for now. By that, I mean they convinced the opportunists they might have better luck elsewhere.

In other news, a very nice movie theater complex, not far from Perkins Rowe, recently shut down because the crowds of... lets use the term "shady characters"... hanging about, holding up walls and columns (via leaning against them) and doing some harassment of the paying customers. So said paying customers stopped going there. A new movie complex opened at the "good mall", and our intrepid opportunists now infest that place on week-end nights. There have been numerous gang fights and several shootings there; all perpetrated by the savages.

My point to all of this is that the oft-repeated mantra that "I don't go to dangerous/undesirable places, therefore I have little to worry about" is, at best, a hollow refrain these days... at least, it is around here. I think I've mentioned this before, but my retirement dream was shorts, flip-flops, a J frame and a Speed Strip. Katrina blew all of that out of the water, because much of the flotsam, jetsam, and downright trash that was swept into here as a result... stayed. And they're snapping to the fact that the cops have been double-gloved in regards to what they can do to ensure the savages behave themselves around everybody else.

PC bullshit prevents me from saying any more, but I hope that answered your question.

.

LSP: Yes, thanks much. I'm on the east coast so we don't have Katrina refugees. We have had malls closed down because they became magnets for the thugs element, but I probably haven't been in a mall except for once or twice in ten years.

Is it possible that the wonderful Utopian leftists at your local housing agency have been pursuing a policy of moving criminals out of crime ridden areas into middle class and upscale neighborhoods?

I recently read a report about Memphis. Crime started spreading all over the city and it took awhile for law enforcement to realize it was all part of a deliberate plan by the local housing department working with the feds. Their idea is that it was unfair to unmarried mothers and their six kids to only have section 8 housing (or whatever it is called today) in crime-ridden neighborhoods. So, they gave these families vouchers to rent nice middle class houses in middle class neighborhoods and sometimes to rent really nice houses in really nice neighborhoods. Unfortunately, it turned out that the reason that their former neighborhoods had been crime ridden because they were criminals, and they continued with criminal behavior in their new neighborhoods.

Nor would the government housing people back down when they were caught. They had their Utopian theories; equality demanded providing criminals with really nice houses (well, until the criminals destroyed them, that is), and lots of middle class people started moving out of Memphis to the surrounding area to get away from the crime. (The bureaucrats called this "racism" but middle class blacks were moving out also, which really frosted the bureaucrats).

Anyway, the report said that HUD and local housing department were going to be rolling out this highly successful model to the rest of the country, and I was wondering if Baton Rogue was part of its experiment in teaching the American people the joys of diversity.

[Chuck Haggard]

Topeka had a similar model where the folks on section 8 were being put up all over town, because being in a blighted section of town was bad for their self esteem or something. As noted, criminals were criminals wherever they went. We were lucky that we had enough resources to counter the bad guys and keep things from going over the edge. Not everywhere has that advantage going on.

[Chuck Haggard]

I didn't know that a lightweight J frame could take a diet of 2-3,000 rounds per year. Is he carrying a steel gun by any chance?

He adds a lot of time in on a .22 J frame, and is very serious with training with his full sized pistols as well.

[LSP972]

Is it possible that the wonderful Utopian leftists at your local housing agency have been pursuing a policy of moving criminals out of crime ridden areas into middle class and upscale neighborhoods?

.

Oh, yeah, plenty of that going on.

And a new twist; "special" folks qualify for more loan money to buy a nice crib in brand-new subdivisions.

Don't get me started on THAT shit...

.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It was standard theory years ago that prejudice could be reduced in folks had more contact with each other. The well-behaving folks would act as role models for the those who might learn and move up the social ladder. Thus, moving folks into the nicer neighborhoods was attempted. In fact, it did help those who moved who already had an attitude to move up the social ladder. However, we know know that for reduction of prejudice you need folks to work together for a common goal AND have a relatively close SES and educational level. If you don't do this - you increase prejudice and tension.

If not, you get tipping point effects where as a certain percentage rises to a level - the majority population bails out and the neighborhood sinks. In fact, this happen to my childhood area under Mayor Lindsay.

In some areas of private homes - this was exacerbated by real estate types who would pick an area and seed it with minority folks (who legitimately were trying to get into a nice area). Previously, they were denied loans (that they could afford) but all of a sudden, they qualified. The agents then started to call around saying that the area was sinking and while these people might be good - the next wave wasn't. They made sure they hit the tipping point to roll the houses.

[Jeep]

Oh, yeah, plenty of that going on.

And a new twist; "special" folks qualify for more loan money to buy a nice crib in brand-new subdivisions.

Don't get me started on THAT shit...

.

I can guarantee you two things. First, most of those nice new houses will be wrecks in a few years. Second, none of the people behind these programs will know or care about the people who become crime victims after the feds import criminals into their neighborhoods. Because people who have worked hard their whole lives, taken care of their property, and been good citizens no longer count for much to our government.

[Dagga Boy]

I believe that the modern service pistol is optimal for use as a tool for dealing with modern criminals, especially robbery crews. It is why I carry one. I also often carry a second gun and numerous edged weapons. I am not like most folks. I also believe that if you cannot safely and competently confirm the loaded status of the modern service pistol, you shouldn't be carrying one. If you can't perform the most basic of manipulations on that modern service pistol under stress, you shouldn't be carrying one. If you cannot trust yourself to carry a pistol with a round in the chamber, you shouldn't be carrying one. Most folks shouldn't be carrying one from what I have seen at most of the public ranges I have been to...........and those are the people who are actually shooting.

The revolver is administratively easy to operate. They are easy to run to their capacity. They run with a compromised grip (that often occurs). Their ammo source is attached and has no part of functioning the gun. The key is that you have to get the work done early or carry a couple. The key to working multiple suspects with them is to be aggressive on leadership quickly. A good example is the off-duty cop getting robbed at the gas station video. Shoot the main guy in the face out of the gate, and the others were literally teleported elsewhere. We dealt with a ton of serious bad guys with revolvers back in the days at times when crime was much worse, it can be done.

Personally, I take advantage of the strong points of both systems. As a cop hunting criminals, I set my stuff up to have the back up run off the primary magazines. Different time, different expectations, different goals. Today as a retired guy, my primary is a service size pistol when I can or a sub compact version when I can't. I also tend to supplement with a revolver as a close range "awe crap" and often have one very accessible in the car. I also have to live in a communist country over the summer.........I'll be using several revolvers.

[Gadfly]

I worked in apartment management before I became a LEO. This was close to 20 years ago, and I worked in some so-so areas, and in some really upscale apartments.

We were forced to accept payment no matter where it came from, by law. So if you had a HUD voucher/section 8 check, we had to accept it. The solution in our cooperate office was to say we accept HUD payment as long as you meet ALL OTHER APPLICANT REQUIERMENTS. Those requirements included a credit check, with no outstanding collection or bankruptcies, AND a felony background check for all residents in the apartment, AND a rental history check with no prior evections, skips or history of late payments... If the criminal record did not disqualify, the credit check always did.

Of course, even with all those checks, good quality parents sometimes had real turd 17yr old kids that caused all kinds of problems.

[NEPAKevin]

Of course, even with all those checks, good quality parents sometimes had real turd 17yr old kids that caused all kinds of problems.

Earlier today, I had the pleasure of escorting a guy along with his daughter and her tweaker boyfriend. While she looked "too thin," he had the rotten teethe, sores on his face and hands and was bouncing off non-existent walls. While listening to the father bemoan his offspring's life's choices for a good fifteen minutes, I notice the BF has a full sized combat style knife strapped to his leg. ( Meth-head fashion? ) Made me miss the Charter Pug 44 special that I used to keep either in my vest or jacket hand warmer pocket so I could discreetly have it at hand.

[Dagga Boy]

Can we break housing off to a romper room thread?

[luckyman]

I also have to live in a communist country over the summer.........I'll be using several revolvers.

California? Going to be giving any classes while you are out here?


(Apologies for the thread derail)

[Dagga Boy]

No NY. I will make this thread relevant. In many places where magazine restrictions and ammunition restrictions are a way of life, a good revolver and solid skills are a very good option. I find they bring out less hysteria and this is even more important when you are not a resident with the time and effort to work through a pissing contest. This is where A good mid size 6 shot (or more) in conjunction with a five shot J frame is a good option.

[ILoveSigs]

As a non-revolver owner, is the issue at hand here being able to pocket carry the gun? Because there are definitely medium frame revolvers on S&W's website with a sub 3" barrel and 6 shots of .357.

Serious question - I'm trying to learn about revolvers and what people look for in them. Personally I can't fathom carrying any gun in my pocket, but that's probably because they're full of so much other crap.

No. Those medium frame (K/L frame) revolvers with 6 shots you speak of are all far too big for pocket carry. About the biggest you can go is a Colt Detective Special (which I have and is no longer made) and a J-frame (5 shots) is the only thing currently made that will work for it (and the Ruger LCR which is the same size as a J-frame and also 5 shots). I'd be looking at carrying it IWB most of the time, and it's not that you can't carry a K/L-frame IWB it's that something smaller (like a Detective Special) would be easier to carry that way and why have it be any bigger than it needs to? I don't need .357, .38+P will do, and in that case, if all you're going to use is .38+P, then all the K/L frames are bigger than they need to be. In other words, I'd like to see a modern version of the Colt Detective Special made, I don't care if it's Colt or S&W who does it.

[jh9]

In other words, I'd like to see a modern version of the Colt Detective Special made, I don't care if it's Colt or S&W who does it.

Ruger is more likely to go there first. I'd like to see the LCR expanded to a mid-size frame, and it seems more likely than getting S&W to do anything beyond drilling a different number of holes (or different size) in an existing product.

The Single Seven cylinder didn't seem that big when I handled one. That was traditionally a .22 and they fit 7 .327s (and 9 .22 magnums) in it. I bet a LCR wrapped around that would carry nicely.

[Chuck Haggard]

Ruger is more likely to go there first. I'd like to see the LCR expanded to a mid-size frame, and it seems more likely than getting S&W to do anything beyond drilling a different number of holes (or different size) in an existing product.

The Single Seven cylinder didn't seem that big when I handled one. That was traditionally a .22 and they fit 7 .327s (and 9 .22 magnums) in it. I bet a LCR wrapped around that would carry nicely.

I'd buy a nine shot .22mag LCR, even if the cylinder was a tad fatter. Same-same for a six shot .38special

[Wheeler]

I'd buy a nine shot .22mag LCR, even if the cylinder was a tad fatter. Same-same for a six shot .38special

I'm holding out hope for a 3" LCRx in .22 Mag.

[Captain]

Topeka had a similar model where the folks on section 8 were being put up all over town, because being in a blighted section of town was bad for their self esteem or something. As noted, criminals were criminals wherever they went. We were lucky that we had enough resources to counter the bad guys and keep things from going over the edge. Not everywhere has that advantage going on.

Several suburbs in the Chicago area required all landlords to take Section 8. The neighborhood I lived in was going down hill when I left. I bought my 60 year old house (my very first house that I owned) in an okay neighborhood for a little over $100k. A decade later I decided to look it up on line and noticed that the house last sold a year ago for $25k and that was in line with everything else in the neighborhood. Guess I won't be going back there to reminisce any time soon...

[Captain]

Yeah, I didn't word my original question that well, I meant to say that if pocket carry isn't the issue, there are multiple medium frame revolvers... etc, etc. I know the medium frames are too big to pocket carry - I was just wondering if that was what you weren't seeing produced that you wanted - something to pocket carry that had six shots. I have briefly pocket carried my father-in-law's S&W (Bodyguard maybe? M&P line with a laser on it) and I just hated that form of carry, I'd much rather have a belt mounted holster/gun. That said, I've never even held a medium frame revolver, so I don't know if that's still unwieldy or not. The only other revolver I've shot/carried was a Ruger Super Redhawk or some such thing in .44mag while camping with my brother-in-law (it was his), and I definitely wouldn't carry that every day.


No. Those medium frame (K/L frame) revolvers with 6 shots you speak of are all far too big for pocket carry. About the biggest you can go is a Colt Detective Special (which I have and is no longer made) and a J-frame (5 shots) is the only thing currently made that will work for it (and the Ruger LCR which is the same size as a J-frame and also 5 shots). I'd be looking at carrying it IWB most of the time, and it's not that you can't carry a K/L-frame IWB it's that something smaller (like a Detective Special) would be easier to carry that way and why have it be any bigger than it needs to? I don't need .357, .38+P will do, and in that case, if all you're going to use is .38+P, then all the K/L frames are bigger than they need to be. In other words, I'd like to see a modern version of the Colt Detective Special made, I don't care if it's Colt or S&W who does it.

[jh9]

I'd buy a nine shot .22mag LCR, even if the cylinder was a tad fatter. Same-same for a six shot .38special

Yeah, I'd buy that for a dollar.

I've been tempted by the S&W 43C but it's the price of two Rugers.

[Lost River]

For the most part. What is most illuminating, to me, is the change in "tactics", if you will, by the roaches.

In the past (in venues I was familiar with, basically the state of Louisiana), the roaches tended to "stay in their lane". IOW, there was their turf, there was "decent citizen" turf, and there were a few free-fire zones where both societal elements co-mingled (shopping malls, etc.). But over the past few years, they seem to have become emboldened- by what, I'll leave unsaid, but you know what I'm talking about- and have begun showing up at places we never used to see them.

A prime example here in Baton Rouge is a new development called Perkins Rowe. Its a several-acre tract of upscale shops/restaurants, smack in the middle of Yuppie Central. Needless to say, Chip and Muffy are primo targets. Not long after it opened, there were several incidents that were... well, "hushed up" isn't exactly correct, but the actual circumstances as officially reported were, shall we say, cloudy (I'd never heard a gunshot explained away as an exploding golf cart tire, but hey, whatever works, right???). An immediate and agressive response by our local, very capable sheriff's office, did the trick... for now. By that, I mean they convinced the opportunists they might have better luck elsewhere.

In other news, a very nice movie theater complex, not far from Perkins Rowe, recently shut down because the crowds of... lets use the term "shady characters"... hanging about, holding up walls and columns (via leaning against them) and doing some harassment of the paying customers. So said paying customers stopped going there. A new movie complex opened at the "good mall", and our intrepid opportunists now infest that place on week-end nights. There have been numerous gang fights and several shootings there; all perpetrated by the savages.

My point to all of this is that the oft-repeated mantra that "I don't go to dangerous/undesirable places, therefore I have little to worry about" is, at best, a hollow refrain these days... at least, it is around here. I think I've mentioned this before, but my retirement dream was shorts, flip-flops, a J frame and a Speed Strip. Katrina blew all of that out of the water, because much of the flotsam, jetsam, and downright trash that was swept into here as a result... stayed. And they're snapping to the fact that the cops have been double-gloved in regards to what they can do to ensure the savages behave themselves around everybody else.

PC bullshit prevents me from saying any more, but I hope that answered your question.

.

An excellent commentary, and very accurate from my experience/perspective.

Today we are a substantially more mobile society than ever before and the thugs are easily found in places that used to be "low threat level" and just a j frame snubby was considered enough by many.

As a related example, I flew into baton rouge a few years back, and spent some weeks at the JESTC facility, doing a firearms instructor train up for an agency that primarily operates OCONUS.

The high level of thuggery was immediately apparent, as compared to my local AO. Normally when carrying a G19, I will only carry a single spare mag. The societal underbelly of the baton rouge area (and pack mentality of the aspiring rappers)had me carrying multiple reloads. Had I had the opportunity to have a second gun, this certainly would have been an appropriate situation for it.

On a side note. A person asked if I'd be interested in a full time training opportunity at the facility, training guys heading downrange. While it would have been a substantial increase in pay, there was not a chance in hell that I would relocate a wife and little girls into that mess.


As much as I enjoy both J frames and big bore revolvers, there are places that a higher volume of fire, with less non firing manipulation is simply more practical.

[LSP972]

On a side note. A person asked if I'd be interested in a full time training opportunity at the facility, training guys heading downrange. While it would have been a substantial increase in pay, there was not a chance in hell that I would relocate a wife and little girls into that mess.



You made the right choice, but not for the reasons you think. There are various "good" areas to live in and raise a family here, and most of them are very convenient to JESTEC.

What you may not be aware of is the fact these "OCONUS" firms' tenure at "satellite facilities" such as JESTEC are nebulous, at best. As in, here today, gone tomorrow... all at the whim of the feds, who are actually funding much of that training. When the State Department up-rooted the ATAP program away from here, there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth, and a lot of contract instructors were left holding the bag.

Anyway... just sayin'...

.

[Lost River]

I believe what you are talking about. The organization that is running the training for new overseas PSD operators is one I worked for down range. Excellent outfit, but there is pretty much nothing appealing about living in the swamps of Louisiana, compared to the rural Rocky Mountain West. The money just wasn't worth the total lifestyle change. Not to mention the change in demographics and threat level to my girls.

Having conducted way too many crimes against children investigations, I'm more than a little hyper protective when it comes to my little girls..

[LSP972]

Excellent outfit, but there is pretty much nothing appealing about living in the swamps of Louisiana, compared to the rural Rocky Mountain West. .


That says it all, right there.

Many times, I have wondered why I ever came back to this miserable state after my military time was up.

Then again, I had a decent career with LSP, retired with a full (as in, 100%) pension at a relatively young age, and have been afforded the opportunity of a marvelous retirement gig.

So maybe I should shut up and count my blessings...

.

[Lost River]

You have done quite well my friend. These days it's very tough to survive in many agencies to retirement age. What most don't realize is its not the bad guys you have you worry about, but "vindictive/self righteous/ burn others to advance" coworkers and chain of command that will snipe you
Generally back shooting you...

A field I would recommend to nobody I like.

[LSP972]

What most don't realize is its not the bad guys you have you worry about, but "vindictive/self righteous/ burn others to advance" coworkers and chain of command that will snipe you


So, so true.

.

[Chuck Haggard]

These days it's very tough to survive in many agencies to retirement age. What most don't realize is its not the bad guys you have you worry about, but "vindictive/self righteous/ burn others to advance" coworkers and chain of command that will snipe you


Hence me leaving two-four years earlier than planned.

[Hizzie]

You have done quite well my friend. These days it's very tough to survive in many agencies to retirement age. What most don't realize is its not the bad guys you have you worry about, but "vindictive/self righteous/ burn others to advance" coworkers and chain of command that will snipe you
Generally back shooting you...

A field I would recommend to nobody I like.

Honestly, that is the very reason I didn't push the issue with TCLEOSE when I moved to Texas. Ultimately Blue Falcons are why I left public safety altogether. It just wasn't worth it.

[SeriousStudent]

These comments make me very sad. They really do. I have listened to far too many men and women who I greatly respect say these things, and it scares me. I really do fear for law enforcement, and for our nation. For if we cannot attract the best and brightest to such a critical field, then we shall truly get what we deserve.

[Wayne Dobbs]

These comments make me very sad. They really do. I have listened to far too many men and women who I greatly respect say these things, and it scares me. I really do fear for law enforcement, and for our nation. For if we cannot attract the best and brightest to such a critical field, then we shall truly get what we deserve.

And Bill, you're all getting a heaping helping of gold plated mediocrity most places. Some agencies aren't that way, but most are watered down and involved in pathological approval seeking games and ill credentialed social work activities. One very big suburban agency near us routinely rejects candidates that express a desire to interdict criminal behavior. Fancy that!

[LtDave]

The vast majority of retirements from my former department were disabilty retirements. There were very few service retirements during my tenure. I got out the minute I was eligible to retire and immediately fled California.

[Hizzie]

These comments make me very sad. They really do. I have listened to far too many men and women who I greatly respect say these things, and it scares me. I really do fear for law enforcement, and for our nation. For if we cannot attract the best and brightest to such a critical field, then we shall truly get what we deserve.

Bill,

It's not just LE. EMS is heading down that path too. I'm done. I took a clinical job. Office politics are easy compared to the idiots out there trying to get me killed.

[serialsolver]

My agency was timidly striving for mediocrity down the path of least resistance.


I'm going back to lurking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dagga Boy]

Spent yesterday training at an agency where the range is within 50 yards of Mexico, and later was with Texas DPS's marine unit and their big gun boats. It warmed my heart on the devotion of these officers working so hard in a real war on the border. I met a lot of hard dedicated LEO's. They are having to work hard to pick up slack from current policies, so they are still allowed to do "police work". In the areas they work, the pendulum is still on the side of citizens wanting LEO's to be Cops. In many places the citizenry have sided with the criminal population and made law enforcement the bad guys. Essentially, many places are getting the law enforcement they deserve.

[SeriousStudent]

Bill,

It's not just LE. EMS is heading down that path too. I'm done. I took a clinical job. Office politics are easy compared to the idiots out there trying to get me killed.

Understood. I left EMS work over 30 years ago. I loved the work, but it did not love me.

[SAWBONES]

Carrying J-frame "snubbies" in .357 Magnum is largely a sort of fantasy, IMNSHO and IME.
I've shot lots of .357 Magnum loads in any number of J-frame guns.

Sure, you can shoot .357 Magnum loads in them, but it's neither fun :(, nor practical, nor fast.

Many years ago, having gotten older and having tired of long carrying relatively heavy semiautomatic higher capacity pistols, I decided to try carrying just a S&W 340PD as a sort of best balance between a "most easily carried" and "most powerful" sidearm.

In anticipation of this, and to hopefully choose a "best load", I shot ALL available premium factory .357 Magnum loads in the guns, in bullet weights from 110 to 158 gr.

As an aside, I'm not "recoil-sensitive".

I shot a minimum of 20 rounds and a maximum of 50 rounds of each load.

IME, NONE of the .357 Magnum loads were either particularly consistent nor precise in these little featherweight guns, though I had really hoped to find a "best choice" example in that loading.

As it turned out, the most accurate and most precise load, in my hands, was the Speer Gold Dot 135gr Short Barrel .38 Special +P 135gr round.

Well and good, but since I'm less than sanguine about carrying just a 5 shot J-frame revolver as a primary CCW gun nowadays, I simply don't feel confidant that it's my best CCW option (especially given the slow shot-to-shot recovery with shooting .357 Magnum loads in these little guns), and I opt instead for carrying either a Colt 1911 CCO or a Glock 26 for CCW.

[Gary1911A1]

I have no hands on experience with Armscor Revolvers. I just throwing this out there. I'm sure someone will say to throw it back at me.:D

https://youtu.be/qrY9r4XxKt4

[LSP972]

I have examined/fired a dozen or so of them at the lab. In my opinion, they are like Tauri revolvers... generally decent product, but one that should be kept as a limited-firing firearm. A stash revolver in the utility room/bathroom/vehicle/etc. would be perfect.

The reason is, they are not built very sturdily. You want a hardcore shooter? Get a Ruger or a steel-frame S&W.

.

[Buckshot]

No. Those medium frame (K/L frame) revolvers with 6 shots you speak of are all far too big for pocket carry. About the biggest you can go is a Colt Detective Special (which I have and is no longer made) and a J-frame (5 shots) is the only thing currently made that will work for it (and the Ruger LCR which is the same size as a J-frame and also 5 shots). I'd be looking at carrying it IWB most of the time, and it's not that you can't carry a K/L-frame IWB it's that something smaller (like a Detective Special) would be easier to carry that way and why have it be any bigger than it needs to? I don't need .357, .38+P will do, and in that case, if all you're going to use is .38+P, then all the K/L frames are bigger than they need to be. In other words, I'd like to see a modern version of the Colt Detective Special made, I don't care if it's Colt or S&W who does it.

Strong disagree on your FAR too big comment - totally depends on the cut of your clothing as I've carried a Model 12 in my front pocket many times in certain pairs of pants.

[LSP972]

Strong disagree on your FAR too big comment - totally depends on the cut of your clothing as I've carried a Model 12 in my front pocket many times in certain pairs of pants.

Yeah. He also said that the Ruger LCR was the same size as the J frame.

Wrong again...;)

.

[Jeep]

I have examined/fired a dozen or so of them at the lab. In my opinion, they are like Tauri revolvers... generally decent product, but one that should be kept as a limited-firing firearm. A stash revolver in the utility room/bathroom/vehicle/etc. would be perfect.

The reason is, they are not built very sturdily. You want a hardcore shooter? Get a Ruger or a steel-frame S&W.

.

Very much agree with this. Fire a box of not-too-hard recoiling .38's through it to find how it shoots; clean it and then set it aside as an emergency gun. My guess is that they will take 500 rounds but I wouldn't bet on 1,000. Still, they are cheap and can serve a useful function.