Jackets and Guns don't mix part II

[Paul]

We're issued a plain old Gerber jacket, This one from Galls (http://www.galls.com/gerber-enforcer-sx-interchangeable-outershell-jacket?PMSRCE=92350001&SESSIONID=000000120473378#.VLqNai551qQ), that has a bellow pockets on the front and a hand warmer pocket underneath.

Last night an officer found that he had been nominated to be a rather large pit bull's next meal, well the officer is rather skinny and might have just been a snack. Fortunately it was just one dog and not one of our infamous herds of urban cattle. Skinny officer, with a mace can in front of his pistol, and a bellow pocket with hand warmer pocket, is a perfect combination for a hand-warmer pocket that has turned into a wide open net.

The pit bull charges the officer. The officer draws, drives his pistol towards the threat, with the muzzle of the pistol going into the hand warmer pocket of the jacket. He fires a round through his pocket and shoots the street, the pit bull decides that there are easier meals out there and runs off. The pistol malfunctioned and the officer cleared it and called it in to dispatch. He's going to be the laughing stock of everything for a while, but had then been a gunfight or pack of dogs he would have been in some serious trouble.

I'm rather portly so this being an issue I've thought about. If you're one of those officers that's into eating healthy and that running nonsense, make sure your winter jacket isn't in a position to screw you over.

[Malamute]

Good point.

I took one jacket I had and stitched the hand warmer pockets shut. When pockets can zip, you can keep them zipped. The split six type speed loader carriers sit high enough to potentially catch the barrel. I try to keep them slid far enough forward to avoid that when I use them.

One parka I bought had a huge wind baffle flap all around the middle at about waist level. I sent it back.

[KevinB]

Very few jackets and other cold weather garments are built with gunfighting in mind.

Indoor in-service qual's will not show you the issues with your gear like an outdoor range will.

In addition to pocket issues, a lot of fleeces and jackets have exterior drawstrings that can snag holsters - or triggers upon re-holster.

Any of your gear permutations should be tested and trained with.

[ToddG]

He's going to be the laughing stock of everything for a while...

I would suggest that whoever decided to issue those jackets without testing them for safety & suitability with regard to firearms should be the laughingstock and might in fact be due some instruction on how to do his job properly before an officer loses his life from inattention to detail on the procurement side's part.

PA State Police had a similar type of problem when they switched to Glocks. They discovered that their issued gloves were soft enough that the trigger safety of a Glock may not disengage when a Trooper tried to press his trigger.

Every jacket, shirt, gloves, etc. that I buy I test to make sure it's compatible with my carry gear. And I'm only responsible for myself, not an entire legion of sworn personnel.

[Paul]

I wish it were that simple. I don't think I've ever meet anyone is the police equipment procurement that was qualified for the job, every now then you'll hear about a guy that sneaks into the position and does amazing things for his department, but it's pretty rare. There's very little done at my department with facilitating police work, let alone gunfighting, in mind. I'm far from an expert on anything, but nowadays I do try to learn from my own mistakes and the mistakes of others.

That's the first I've heard about Glocks and winter gloves. I never wear anything thicker than tacti-cool ninja gloves, but I am going to mention that to a couple guys that I know wear heavier gloves in the winter.

[Haraise]

Very few jackets and other cold weather garments are built with gunfighting in mind.

Well that makes me curious. Which are the few?

[DocGKR]

Beware of large zippers...

[SLG]

NYPD had a major issue with their jackets some years ago. Guys were coming in the precinct with their hammers cocked (S&W M10's, 64's and such). After they got tired of yelling at the guys for walking around with their hammers cocked, the city realized that the nifty new split leather zipper pulls were catching the hammer spur and cocking the hammer while the gun was in the holster. Those jackets were ditched (I think) and at some point after that, hammers were bobbed.

[ToddG]

NYPD had a major issue with their jackets some years ago. Guys were coming in the precinct with their hammers cocked (S&W M10's, 64's and such). After they got tired of yelling at the guys for walking around with their hammers cocked, the city realized that the nifty new split leather zipper pulls were catching the hammer spur and cocking the hammer while the gun was in the holster. Those jackets were ditched (I think) and at some point after that, hammers were bobbed.

Mayor DeBlasio wants those jackets found, dry cleaned, and given out to the homeless (only those with voting privileges) right now!

[GJM]

Well that makes me curious. Which are the few?

Might look here:

http://leaf.arcteryx.com/Home.aspx?language=EN

[Redhat]

Have at least pondered some range testing with these jackets since the incident? At the least will they let you sew it shut or something?

I had a similar type issue not involving a firearm the other day. I removed my spiffy new wonder jacket and later discovered the waist draw string had "lifted" my pocket clip equipped pocket knife right out of my pocket. Found it hanging off of the jacket.

[LSP972]

...the nifty new split leather zipper pulls were catching the hammer spur and cocking the hammer while the gun was in the holster.

Yet another reason those cheap-jack JayPee holsters were a complete waste of leather. There were a few gun-savvy NYPD cops who showed up to help during Katrina; I had some really interesting conversations with one of them.

.

[Chuck Haggard]

It's not just jackets, as noted by Todd, it's everything.

Our last issued uniform shirts were the 5.11s, those have a sort of split in the middle of the shirt pocket that allows the pockets to bellows out when it's loaded but lay flat when it's empty. That split will snag a dude's thumb on a fast transition from a high 2 to the 3, and potentially cause dude to spontaneously self disarm. In a fight we could categorize this as "a very bad thing".

[SLG]

Yet another reason those cheap-jack JayPee holsters were a complete waste of leather. There were a few gun-savvy NYPD cops who showed up to help during Katrina; I had some really interesting conversations with one of them.

.

No joke. Yet those holsters were considered cool, and if you had a swivel holster, you were really cool. Go figure.

[SLG]

It's not just jackets, as noted by Todd, it's everything.

Our last issued uniform shirts were the 5.11s, those have a sort of split in the middle of the shirt pocket that allows the pockets to bellows out when it's loaded but lay flat when it's empty. That split will snag a dude's thumb on a fast transition from a high 2 to the 3, and potentially cause dude to spontaneously self disarm. In a fight we could categorize this as "a very bad thing".

I actually had this happen yesterday with a cover garment that hasn't given me trouble in years of use and thousands of rds in training. I didn't lose my gun, but my strong hand thumb got caught in my shirt several times. Still can't say for sure why that happened. Just to be safe, I switched to a Jay-Pee holster;-)

[Chuck Haggard]

I actually had this happen yesterday with a cover garment that hasn't given me trouble in years of use and thousands of rds in training. I didn't lose my gun, but my strong hand thumb got caught in my shirt several times. Still can't say for sure why that happened. Just to be safe, I switched to a Jay-Pee holster;-)

Your draw will be much safer using a holster that often disallows you to draw the gun.

[SLG]

Your draw will be much safer using a holster that often disallows you to draw the gun.

I half believe that's why it was approved.

[Chuck Haggard]

I half believe that's why it was approved.

It's for the children!

[Haraise]

Might look here:

http://leaf.arcteryx.com/Home.aspx?language=EN

I might, but I figure Kevin would know. LEAF has never advertised 'gunfighter pockets' that I've known of... and last I looked, specifically asked anyone not on deployment to not buy LEAF products (lightfighter). Not sure if that's changed.

[SLG]

I might, but I figure Kevin would know. LEAF has never advertised 'gunfighter pockets' that I've known of... and last I looked, specifically asked anyone not on deployment to not buy LEAF products (lightfighter). Not sure if that's changed.

I can't speak for Kevin, but I don't think he was referring to a particular jacket, just making an observation. I use a lot of LEAF stuff, and though it is "built for gunfighting", it is more for military use, not CCW. Uniform LE crosses over pretty well, but most departments can't and won't dress their guys in LEAF, so its kinda a moot point. Once you've been carrying for any length of time, you pretty quickly figure out if any given garment you want to buy is appropriate or not.

[EM_]

When I worked patrol we were authorized to wear a sweater in winter uniform. I rarely put a coat on over it so long as I used correct base layers I was good to go and it eliminated any of these issues.

The coat would always be in the car for those rare times when you had to be out of the car for extended periods. The other plus was that we wore light blue uniform shirts, but the sweater was dark blue, which helped blend on nights. Too many guys shunned the sweater (esp the young guys) for fashion reasons. I found it a really useful piece of kit in cold weather.

Something to think about...

[Trooper224]

It has to be truly harsh before most of our people will wear our issue coat. With the thing on, you can't access most of your gear in any kind of quick fashion and the thing binds up, making quick movement problematic. Most of us would rather freeze than wear the things. Unfortunately, back in the 80's we won a national award for being the prettiest agency in the country so admin wouldn't dream of changing anything. They're happy to keep us looking like we stepped out of the 30's rather than wear anything practical.

[LSP552]

It has to be truly harsh before most of our people will wear our issue coat. With the thing on, you can't access most of your gear in any kind of quick fashion and the thing binds up, making quick movement problematic. Most of us would rather freeze than wear the things. Unfortunately, back in the 80's we won a national award for being the prettiest agency in the country so admin wouldn't dream of changing anything. They're happy to keep us looking like we stepped out of the 30's rather than wear anything practical.

As we would say down here: Fifty years of tradition untouched by progress.

[Paul]

It's not just jackets, as noted by Todd, it's everything.

Our last issued uniform shirts were the 5.11s, those have a sort of split in the middle of the shirt pocket that allows the pockets to bellows out when it's loaded but lay flat when it's empty. That split will snag a dude's thumb on a fast transition from a high 2 to the 3, and potentially cause dude to spontaneously self disarm. In a fight we could categorize this as "a very bad thing".

Good to know, there have been a couple folks trying to get 5.11 uniforms to replace our Flying Cross class-b's. I think that has more to do with operators wear 5.11 (just look at the ads), so if we wear 5.11 we can operate.

Sewing down the pockets will probably be a best case solution. I'm pretty sure the command staff will chalk this up to officer error, and nothing meaningful will come out of it. We don't fix problems, we just blame the officer.

We had two documented Serpa ND's before they were banned. One was in FoF training and the officer shot himself in the leg. There was no injury, but it should have been a clue. The second was at the range and the officer missed shooting himself in the heel by a couple inches. There were two camps in the argument. The Range Sergeant, who had been trying to get them banned and the chief's buddies, who decided that Serpas were what cool guys used and the ND's were entirely the officers' fault. Safety took a backseat the the good ol' boy network, and Serpas were still authorized. The Range Sergeant ended up giving the city's Workers Comp administrator a friendly heads up about a potential future claim and suddenly all things Serpa were banned.

[Hambo]

We don't fix problems, we just blame the officer.


You don't expect command staff to blame themselves, do you? It's cheaper, easier, and more palatable to write up the officer.

[Paul]

You don't expect command staff to blame themselves, do you? It's cheaper, easier, and more palatable to write up the officer.

I can't complain too much, it could be much worse. Prior to our chief being hired, the rumor was that the city manager wanted a Hispanic chief and Danny Garcia (Phoenix's now ex chief) was the name being batted around, fortunately (unless you work in Phoenix) he took the Phoenix job. I'd say we dodged a bullet on that one.

[Trooper224]

As we would say down here: Fifty years of tradition untouched by progress.

Indeed. The quality of the uniforms keeps declining, yet the price keeps climbing. No matter what though, the brass insists on us looking like we're going to invade Poland. Mention BDU's or something more practical and you get the eye daggers of death.

[Coyotesfan97]

I can't complain too much, it could be much worse. Prior to our chief being hired, the rumor was that the city manager wanted a Hispanic chief and Danny Garcia (Phoenix's now ex chief) was the name being batted around, fortunately (unless you work in Phoenix) he took the Phoenix job. I'd say we dodged a bullet on that one.

I work in the Valley. You dodged a huge one.

[Paul]

I work in the Valley. You dodged a huge one.

We've hired a couple Dallas PD officers, who say that he was known as "My way or the highway" Danny and that he was a sadistic jerk. As bad as they make Dallas sound, they wouldn't have left to work for him.

I heard he did something like make patrol guys wear long sleeve class a dark blue uniforms in the summer?

[Coyotesfan97]

They were authorized to wear BDU style pants and polo shirts with soft patches. He "deauthorized" them and patrol had to go back to dark blue polyester with metal. No long sleeves in the summer though.


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[Coyotesfan97]

He was fired for insubordination after he held a press conference touting himself after being ordered not to hold it by the City Manager.


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[Paul]

He was fired for insubordination after he held a press conference touting himself after being ordered not to hold it by the City Manager.


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Well hopefully that was rock bottom for you guys, things start looking up and the damage is undone in a few years.

[Coyotesfan97]

Fortunately I didn't work for him but our prior Chief had the same type of management style.


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