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View Full Version : 686 is a bug?



Glenn E. Meyer
01-16-2015, 11:53 AM
So I decide the watch the SW Indoor Bug match on Shooting something with Jim Scouten. Looks like fun and we've tried to do that here.

Folks were shooting Shields, 642s, LCRs, G26s - reasonable. Then, Jim made an interesting comment. Well, for folks who want to win we see Jerry M. shooting a 3 inch 686 as it fits in the box. Oh, well.

As an side, I go to talk our retirement guy and I mention I want to have enough money to survive the Zombie apocalypse (like money would help - just a joke). He says you need guns. I say - those I got. So he says do you know anything about them. A touch. Well, he wants to get a gun for himself and his wife for home SD and his sons suggest a Glock 19 (fine gun) but he wants a revolver and we spend some of my financial counseling time explaining different revolvers and ammo. Now that's a good TX conversation.

Chuck Haggard
01-16-2015, 11:56 AM
My 4" 681 has been a "BUG", to my .308, while deer hunting...........

2983

LittleLebowski
01-16-2015, 12:05 PM
My 4" 681 has been a "BUG", to my .308, while deer hunting...........

2983

I love that pic, much respect.

Glenn E. Meyer
01-16-2015, 12:07 PM
I don't think we have run a deer scenario at a local match. However, the berms are built into a wooded hill and every once in awhile a deer runs across the top of the berm cut. Must like to live dangerously.

Lon
01-16-2015, 12:39 PM
I don't think we have run a deer scenario at a local match. However, the berms are built into a wooded hill and every once in awhile a deer runs across the top of the berm cut. Must like to live dangerously.

One day 7 or 8 years ago, my team was doing subgun quals at SWAT training. So there's a dozen guys on line with MP-5s and a deer decided to prance across the range between us and the targets. I was surprised no one shot the damn thing. We just looked at each other like, WTF?

Chuck Haggard
01-16-2015, 01:09 PM
The deer at our local gun club are just as bad. They consistently ignore rifle fire to wander out onto the high power range.

jetfire
01-16-2015, 02:04 PM
To the OP: the original BUG rules said that any revolver with a 3 inch or shorter barrel is a BUG. That meant that Jerry's 686+ with a three inch tube was 100% legal. A lot of guys at the BUG match also ran 3 inch K-frames as their "BUGs."

According to HQ, they're going to rejigger the BUG rules before this winter's match to bring them more in line with what the spirit of the BUG is.

ADulay
01-16-2015, 02:22 PM
The deer at our local gun club are just as bad. They consistently ignore rifle fire to wander out onto the high power range.

While out at the NRA's Whittington (sp?) Center in New Mexico, we had several "range deer" wander around downrange pretty much all day long.

We also had a group of about 6 or 7 just sitting on some grass behind us and they never even flinched as we shot off a few hundred rounds that afternoon.

The rule is "Don't shoot the range deer"!!

All we get at our local outdoor range is raccoons in the trees and things like that.

AD

taadski
01-16-2015, 02:25 PM
To the OP: the original BUG rules said that any revolver with a 3 inch or shorter barrel is a BUG. That meant that Jerry's 686+ with a three inch tube was 100% legal. A lot of guys at the BUG match also ran 3 inch K-frames as their "BUGs."

According to HQ, they're going to rejigger the BUG rules before this winter's match to bring them more in line with what the spirit of the BUG is.

…and any semi with a 3.8" barrel or less. I wasn't there at the BUG Nationals but listening to the wingeing around the interwebs, it seemed folks were more put off by a couple mini-STI carry variants than the shorter barreled wheel guns. I don't know what "spirit of the BUG" is in IDPA's mind but I know a ton of coppers that carry G26/P9/239/MP9Cs sized pistols as BUGs daily to think the current rules express it pretty well.

It'd be a shame if they neuter it into a key-fob competition.

t

jetfire
01-16-2015, 04:44 PM
…and any semi with a 3.8" barrel or less. I wasn't there at the BUG Nationals but listening to the wingeing around the interwebs, it seemed folks were more put off by a couple mini-STI carry variants than the shorter barreled wheel guns. I don't know what "spirit of the BUG" is in IDPA's mind but I know a ton of coppers that carry G26/P9/239/MP9Cs sized pistols as BUGs daily to think the current rules express it pretty well.

It'd be a shame if they neuter it into a key-fob competition.

t

I think the idea is to get rid of the obvious cheater guns like a 3 inch 686 while still leaving room for guns like G26s.

taadski
01-17-2015, 12:13 AM
Yeah, I get that Caleb. That's fair. Although I know a good number of folks that would likely argue something like the 26 is darn near as shootable as its larger counterparts and as shootable as a snubbed K or L frame. I guess maybe I'm just whining because the word was that they were going to change the limit to 3.5" barreled semis which would take my personal BUG (the 239) out of the class while leaving the mini-STIs in.

Whaaaaa! :D



t

Chuck Haggard
01-17-2015, 06:27 AM
Yeah, I get that Caleb. That's fair. Although I know a good number of folks that would likely argue something like the 26 is darn near as shootable as its larger counterparts and as shootable as a snubbed K or L frame. I guess maybe I'm just whining because the word was that they were going to change the limit to 3.5" barreled semis which would take my personal BUG (the 239) out of the class while leaving the mini-STIs in.

Whaaaaa! :D



t

I'm thinking there should be a weight limit in there somewhere.

I haven't seen a mini STI, but I'd guess it would make a poor ankle gun.

Hambo
01-17-2015, 08:15 AM
"Spirit of BUG", meh. The spirit of IDPA went out the window when the first shots went downrange. If you shoot IDPA as though your life is on the line you might get an attaboy from the SO, but you'll be dead last in the results. It's a game with arbitrary rules, nothing more. Play it by the "spirit" and forget you're competing against others, or play it to win with every advantage you can use.

taadski
01-17-2015, 08:34 AM
I'm thinking there should be a weight limit in there somewhere.

I haven't seen a mini STI, but I'd guess it would make a poor ankle gun.

True enough perhaps, although my 239 isn't an ideal ankle gun either, but that didn't keep me from carrying it there for a number of years. I think it's a reasonable size for a BUG. [shrug] But agreed, the line has to be drawn somewhere I suppose.

The Lawman 3.0 (one example of a compact STI model) weighs in almost 5 ounces lighter than my compact Sig with a similar overall size profile and a sub 3.5" barrel. FWIW.

http://www.stiguns.com/the-sti-lawman-3-0/

olstyn
01-17-2015, 08:52 AM
a good number of folks that would likely argue something like the 26 is darn near as shootable as its larger counterparts

As someone who shoots a Walther P99c (3.5" barrel, basically spec-wise identical to a G26 apart from being DA/SA w/decocker) in USPSA Production because it's what I have, I tend to agree with that sentiment. Sure, if I had a full-size P99 or a PPQ, it'd be a bit easier to get a consistent grip out of the holster, and a bit easier to control recoil, but for truly competitive level shooters, I bet the speed difference would be pretty small. Me, on the other hand, I dunno. I did win a stage last month, but at least one of the people who usually beats me totally blew it on that stage, so...am I trying to talk myself into or out of buying a full-size P99 here? I'll quit clogging up/drifting the thread now... :P

Chuck Haggard
01-17-2015, 11:22 PM
True enough perhaps, although my 239 isn't an ideal ankle gun either, but that didn't keep me from carrying it there for a number of years. I think it's a reasonable size for a BUG. [shrug] But agreed, the line has to be drawn somewhere I suppose.

The Lawman 3.0 (one example of a compact STI model) weighs in almost 5 ounces lighter than my compact Sig with a similar overall size profile and a sub 3.5" barrel. FWIW.

http://www.stiguns.com/the-sti-lawman-3-0/

Yup, I get it. I've worn guns as big as Glock 26/27s and S&W 6906s as ankle guns in the past.

Sigfan26
01-17-2015, 11:45 PM
Yup, I get it. I've worn guns as big as Glock 26/27s and S&W 6906s as ankle guns in the past.

I remember using a G19 as an ankle gun just to prove it was possible... And it didn't carry too bad.

SLG
01-18-2015, 12:35 AM
I hate carrying any gun on my ankle, but I know a surprising number of guys and gals who carry G23's and even 1 who carries a G22 on their ankle.

fwiw, I shot a 3" SS K frame at the first BUG nationals. I chose it for a variety of reasons, one of which was that it was firmly within the rules. If its in the rules, it isn't a cheater gun. Period. Its a game.

Also, fwiw, I found the all SS construction to be a big detriment in many of the lighting situations that were presented. Given the power, or lack thereof, of the ammo I was shooting (also within the rules), I wish I had chosen my blued 442 instead. I've won money with that gun shooting plates at 50 yards, and I'm convinced I would have shot a higher score with it. But, as long as its within the rules, to each his own.

Wheeler
01-18-2015, 09:36 AM
I hate carrying any gun on my ankle, but I know a surprising number of guys and gals who carry G23's and even 1 who carries a G22 on their ankle.

fwiw, I shot a 3" SS K frame at the first BUG nationals. I chose it for a variety of reasons, one of which was that it was firmly within the rules. If its in the rules, it isn't a cheater gun. Period. Its a game.

Also, fwiw, I found the all SS construction to be a big detriment in many of the lighting situations that were presented. Given the power, or lack thereof, of the ammo I was shooting (also within the rules), I wish I had chosen my blued 442 instead. I've won money with that gun shooting plates at 50 yards, and I'm convinced I would have shot a higher score with it. But, as long as its within the rules, to each his own.

Highlighted and quoted for truth. It's no different than the old days of IDPA where guys were running 5" 625's with ammo that would make a 125PF just barely. It was legal, I found a way to beat a few of them with a 3" 686 and Comp2 speedloaders. It made me step up my game. For that matter,it's no different than a shooter now running an L frame sized gun with a slicked up action against folks shooting K frame sized guns with stock triggers. Ever since he won I've sensed quite a bit of angst aimed at his choice of firearm, or maybe it's just the fact that he won....again....with a revolver.

ST911
01-18-2015, 10:08 AM
I ankle carried a G27 in an Alessi for years, as well as G19s and G23s. What constitutes a BUG is certainly subject to definition and mission. We've wrestled with this in local clubs trying to get BUG/pocket gun matches together. As we kicked around rules, it was obvious that having a match truer to its spirit and intent required a well crafted guest list more than rule book.

If we were to construct such a set of rules though, what does it look like?

MGW
01-18-2015, 11:15 AM
If we were to construct such a set of rules though, what does it look like?

Seems difficult to do with out eliminating something like the 26. Just thinking out loud here but what if criteria was created for size, capacity, and weight? Create a box the size of a 26. Restrict magazine capacity of automatics to 10 rounds or less and revolvers to 6 rounds or less. Restrict unloaded weight to around 23 oz or less. The rest of the rules would match up with SSP and SSR.

I think the key is restricting the weight and size of the firearm used.

Wheeler
01-18-2015, 11:58 AM
I ankle carried a G27 in an Alessi for years, as well as G19s and G23s. What constitutes a BUG is certainly subject to definition and mission. We've wrestled with this in local clubs trying to get BUG/pocket gun matches together. As we kicked around rules, it was obvious that having a match truer to its spirit and intent required a well crafted guest list more than rule book.

If we were to construct such a set of rules though, what does it look like?

Much like these:
http://https://sites.google.com/a/lewistownpistolclub.com/home/pocket-carry-competition-association

taadski
01-18-2015, 12:47 PM
Much like these:
http://https://sites.google.com/a/lewistownpistolclub.com/home/pocket-carry-competition-association

Link is broken. I suspect you were linking these?

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo324/taadski/Mobile%20Uploads/photo_zps18f6884c.jpg (http://s388.photobucket.com/user/taadski/media/Mobile%20Uploads/photo_zps18f6884c.jpg.html)

jetfire
01-18-2015, 04:23 PM
I hate carrying any gun on my ankle, but I know a surprising number of guys and gals who carry G23's and even 1 who carries a G22 on their ankle.

fwiw, I shot a 3" SS K frame at the first BUG nationals. I chose it for a variety of reasons, one of which was that it was firmly within the rules. If its in the rules, it isn't a cheater gun. Period. Its a game.

Also, fwiw, I found the all SS construction to be a big detriment in many of the lighting situations that were presented. Given the power, or lack thereof, of the ammo I was shooting (also within the rules), I wish I had chosen my blued 442 instead. I've won money with that gun shooting plates at 50 yards, and I'm convinced I would have shot a higher score with it. But, as long as its within the rules, to each his own.

I was really glad my gun had night sights on it that year. I thought you shot a steel j-frame, though, not a k-frame.

Edwin
01-18-2015, 04:43 PM
I think the idea is to get rid of the obvious cheater guns like a 3 inch 686 while still leaving room for guns like G26s.

Any word if they are going to change the semi-auto length rules too (3.8")? Hopefully my idea of using my FM Detective (Hi Power Compact) with a 3.7" barrel isn't in jeopardy.

SLG
01-18-2015, 06:21 PM
I was really glad my gun had night sights on it that year. I thought you shot a steel j-frame, though, not a k-frame.

If I had a steel J frame, that might have gotten the nod. Instead I used an old NYPD M64 that a good friend carried on duty (as a BUG, no less). Night sights would have been nice, but at the rate I was going, plain black was looking really good. I'll never use an all SS gun again, even for nostalgia.