The speed of lethal force

[TCinVA]

In discussions of lethal force with the untrained, one of the most difficult things for me to communicate to them is the speed they happen at. This lapel video, sadly, illustrates the concept better than any words I can come up with:


http://youtu.be/VAcLOO0vOko

Officer Tyler Stewart
EOW: 12-27-14

[Beat Trash]

I trust in God.

Everyone else, I want to see their hands....

[Chuck Haggard]

Our last three LODs have been with very similar dynamics.

My trainer brain was screaming while watching that video, so very, very much wrong going on there.

[41magfan]

The unfortunate reality is that he could have pulled that right hand out of his pocket casually and had the exact same effect.

[Coyotesfan97]

The sad thing was the suspect had his hand on a cocked pistol the whole contact.

[Artemas]

Our last three LODs have been with very similar dynamics.

My trainer brain was screaming while watching that video, so very, very much wrong going on there.
Would you be able to say how an LEO could handle this more safely? Maybe even how to deal with someone who refuses to show their hands.


I don't mean to armchair the murder of an LE officer, so I am also open to a "piss off" response.

[Chuck Haggard]

One thing that jumps out is that it appears the officer was by himself. How a guy expects to work a domestic by himself, safely, is beyond me. This sort of contact would require "contact-cover" with a second officer to safely work, optimally at least. Bad guy is ordered to get his hands clear of his pockets, refusal to do so ups the tactics rather quickly.

The half-assed pat down has gotten tons of coppers killed. This was also in play in the Trooper Coates incident.

At these distances going for the bad guy's gun is the best bet, no way you have time to make distance and draw your own gun. Knowing how to do a disarm is a VERY important skill to have.

Failure to note danger signs was also a thing here, note bad guy has one hand out of his pocket, the right hand is obviously pinned into the pocket and not moving. People don't generally gesture one handed.

[Artemas]

Thank you for clarifying. The amount of details you guys have to keep in mind is boggling.

[Paul]

Would you be able to say how an LEO could handle this more safely? Maybe even how to deal with someone who refuses to show their hands.


I don't mean to armchair the murder of an LE officer, so I am also open to a "piss off" response.

The unwillingness to MMQB to protect someone's feeling or dignity is why so many cops get killed making the same stupid mistakes.

The biggest mistake I see is no cover. It's usually a bullshit deal, until it ain't. Just handle your business and save your buddy a trip across the city is not a good SOP.

I don't have a time machine and I can't predict the future or recreate the past, but in my experience the guys that are wishy-washy about fighting won't pull any shenanigans if there are multiple officers present.

[TCinVA]

People don't generally gesture one handed.

That was the one that leaped out at me.

[CanineCombatives]

In due time this will turn out to be one of the most valuable videos for officer safety we have, I have zero time to get into it now but I just want to drop a sentence related to this now, to the guys still answering the calls and working the streets, and ESPECIALLY the ones who have never been in a lethal encounter.
When your in the spot that rookie was in, and it's simply too late, and you have not tenths of seconds but hundredths of seconds to react, if you remember nothing else remember this; FIGHT THE GUN, NOT THE GUY.....
Most of us can see all the mistakes that led up to the point the pistol came out, I'll let others dissect that, but once the officer visually saw the pistol he had only one chance to stay alive, and that was to fight for control of that pistol, and he had hundredths of seconds to do it, instead, he put up his hand in a blocking type gesture, that's game over.

Be back for more on this later guys.

[WobblyPossum]

The first red flag for me was when the officer asked the suspect if they could go outside to speak. The officer goes outside and the suspect goes somewhere into the house, is gone for a few seconds and comes back with the right hand in the pocket. I can only guess because I wasn't there but that might be when the suspect got the gun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Chuck Haggard]

One handed gestures as a "tell"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1ZONEK-_A

Crappy pat-down and generally poor tactics; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD578ESQAtU


FWIW, not MMQBing this stuff means the lessons learned are lost, and that a good guy's blood has been shed in vain.

[41magfan]

We addressed this “hands in the pocket” conundrum several decades ago and I remain convinced the tactics is the only response that will produce a predictable outcome, not skill at arms.

When an officer is encumbered with having to ID what’s in a suspect’s hand, it puts him too far behind the curve to gain first shot advantage. In our examinations and realistic role plays of this often encountered dilemma, an officer is usually required to react solely to a furtive movement if he reasonably hopes to get the first round off, and even then he must often times already have his gun in-hand to pull that off.

Obviously you can’t shoot everyone that makes a threatening move you don’t like, so your tactics better address it before gunplay is injected as a remedy.

[Chuck Haggard]

At touching distances I pin the hand into the pocket, and bring it out under physical control. Four times this has led to me stripping a pistol out of a bad guy's grip during the course of the fight that just started.

[GardoneVT]

A good lesson for armed citizens also. When I was sized up for a carjacking/robbery , the Big Clue Of Trouble was the bad guy walking directly toward me with his right hand in the hoodie pocket.

A strategic reveal of my carry gun defused contact before it started,but that 'tell' saved my ass that day.As for this specific tragedy, its occured to me that the shooter could have very well fired the pistol right through the coat pocket.

[Mr_White]

At touching distances I pin the hand into the pocket, and bring it out under physical control. Four times this has led to me stripping a pistol out of a bad guy's grip during the course of the fight that just started.

There was an old cop saying I heard a long time ago and it has stuck with me because it just seems so wise and logical, even though I don't have much occasion to use it:

If his hands are not in his pockets, don't let him put his hands into his pockets.

If his hands are in his pockets, don't let him take his hands out.

[jnc36rcpd]

One or more back-up officers may well have prevented this murder. The suspect may have decided that he could take on one cop, but not two or three. Even if he was able to draw and fire, back-up officers may well have engaged him and prevented the additional shots fired at the officer.

Back-up is the responsibility of the investigating officer, other shift members, and the chain of command. Everyone should realize that there is no shame in asking for additional units. Shift members (and officers from other units) need to make it clear that backing each other up is everyone's responsibility. Supervisors and the chain of command need to enforce this. If someone states "I'll advise for back-up" when the call indicates back-up is needed, someone with stripes or bars needs to be getting on the air to ensure that back-up is dispatched.

I am also a believer that we need to stage for some calls, especially domestics where there is no indication of imminent violence. Over thirty-four years, I have saved almost no one from injury or death because I arrived first and fast on a domestic call. If the domestic entailed an ongoing assault, the victim would be running out the door rather than sitting on the couch sulking. Once an officer arrives on scene, the dynamics change. All parties become more animated and things can go sideways. If we wait for that second or third unit, we have a much greater chance of accomplishing our mission without anyone getting hurt.

The search was when things went bad. I have to agree that these half-baked searches get officers killed. You either search or frisk or you don't search or frisk. "I'm just going to pat you down" coupled with a few desultory pats does nothing but put you at risk.

In my younger days, I attempted a variety of search and handcuffing techniques before realizing that some variation of "put your hands behind your back" was best for cuffing and that you can only safely search or frisk a subject when he is handcuffed and/or you have a cover officer. The various martial arts stances often require a degree of strength, balance, and/or flexibility that you or the suspect may not have. Moreover, many control techniques entail inflicting some degree of pain to the suspect. Apart from that being a use of force, it certainly doesn't encourage consent to search or frisk if you're hanging your hat on that. Moreover, effectively searching someone requires two hands which you won't have if you've got the suspect bent over like a pretzel.

[CanineCombatives]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/OMEGANOX/flagstaffrookie_zps96c781bd.jpg


Ok a little more on this, all the glaring mistakes that were made up to the point where it turned deadly are things that are addressed at the most basic academy levels of instruction, I'm only going to address the lethal part. This officers death boils down to his actions that can be measured in miliseconds, the photo above tells the whole story of why he is no longer with us. His inherent, dare I say "genetically" instinctive reaction was to put his hand up as a shielding or blocking gesture, as we all know that will have the same result 100% of the time in this kind of situation. This is one of the few times when there are no variables, no differing opinions or approaches, once the gun appeared in that moment the option of going for his own pistol was off the table. The only chance of survival left is/was to attack the weapon with a ferocity that there are no words in the English language to describe, the kind of ferocity that an animal exhibits when they chew off their own leg to escape a trap.
I hope and pray that this may just open some decision makers eyes to the fact that FOF combatives dealing specifically with weapon retention needs to be an absolutely mandated block of training in every academy all the way down to the municipal level, one on one retention drills with protective gear so the students can go full out 100% without worry about injury is simply the only way to properly prepare officers for this kind of lethal situation.
Looking further at the larger picture of officer survival training, just like the firearms topic about instinctive malfunction clearance in that other thread, we are sorely lacking in how we prepare officers to deal with lethal encounters, even a basic 11b infantry guy has a vastly better base of training in combatives than the street cop who is infinitely more likely to need it, like 100/1 more likely.
I've had what you might call a vision or just simply an idea for many years of putting together a consortium of sorts comprised of veteran street cops both active and retired who have survived lethal encounters, preferably multiple times, pulling from any state nationally. Eventually leading to a think tank if you will, both as a training resource and as an advisory and review entity, I have a solid group already on board and just need to nail down the logistics of how to formulate things and launch it, the key as always being TIME. But seeing things like this occur reminds me that time must be made even if it means sacrificing other things.

[Chuck Haggard]

There was an old cop saying I heard a long time ago and it has stuck with me because it just seems so wise and logical, even though I don't have much occasion to use it:

If his hands are not in his pockets, don't let him put his hands into his pockets.

If his hands are in his pockets, don't let him take his hands out.

The very common "SHOW ME YOUR HANDS!!!!!" thing is an excuse for the bad guy to move, which puts the copper at an initiative deficit. I specifically taught guys to never do that.

[BJJ]

The first major red flag to me is a lone officer going to investigate a domestic disturbance. The second major red flag is when the killer agrees to come outside and then is allowed to retreat to his bedroom. Under no circumstances will I allow someone who is detained or under arrest to do that. If you're being detained pursuant to an investigation or I've told you you're under arrest for a warrant and you need to grab your shoes, grab your smokes, get a number out of your phone, call your mama, etc. that is fine that you need those things but you're going in cuffs first and then we will work all of that out. I put people's shoes on their feet if I have to after they're in cuffs. I have adopted that policy based on a personal experience from when I was new where I delayed handcuffing someone who managed to get away and also the experience of another officer who used to work at my department. The other officer's experience was that he went to arrest someone on a relatively minor warrant. The guy didn't have a shirt on and said he needed to go in his bedroom to put on a shirt. He came back out wearing a shirt but also had retrieved a gun. The officer was able to react quickly enough to shoot and kill the suspect. I would prefer to not have to go through all that. The other red flags from the video are trying to search from the side instead of behind and once the search started the guy was reacting in a way consistent with people who have something on them.

I am very very sorry that the officer was killed. When I think back to the way I handled some calls when I had only been on the job as long as him, I get chills thinking about how easily I could have been had.

[Paul]

Back-up is the responsibility of the investigating officer, other shift members, and the chain of command. Everyone should realize that there is no shame in asking for additional units. Shift members (and officers from other units) need to make it clear that backing each other up is everyone's responsibility. Supervisors and the chain of command need to enforce this. If someone states "I'll advise for back-up" when the call indicates back-up is needed, someone with stripes or bars needs to be getting on the air to ensure that back-up is dispatched.

In this day and age of computerized dispatch, very few command staffs are willing to put the safety of their troops above response times. I always try to explain to guys that you get paid by the hour not by the call, either it's BS and it doesn't matter if it simmers a little longer while you wait for cover, or it's going to be mess and you really need your cover their with you.

http://www.odmp.org/officer/22313-police-officer-tyler-jacob-stewart

What's really disgust me looking at the ODMP page is that this kid had one year of service and is exhibiting laziness that I'd expect out a 10+ year officer. He's fresh out of training. Whoever FTO'd this kid should be ashamed of themselves. How many blind eyes were turned to let someone that fucked up on the streets.

[fixer]

Man...that was almost like...an ambush. Tough to watch.

I grew up in this area of AZ and I can tell you folks are really eager to delude themselves that the area is practically nirvana when it comes to any crime.

Edit: A question: I noticed this bad guy was at someone else's apt. Would it have made a material impact if say the officer requested the friend stand outside with them?

[KeeFus]

The first major red flag to me is a lone officer going to investigate a domestic disturbance.

Sadly, this happens more than we want to admit it. At my last agency, which covers one of the largest counties in the state, it was and still is common place to go on a domestic by yourself. One officer would easily cover 100 square miles by themselves so you can imagine how far off back-up was/is.

[41magfan]

I suspect most COPs in America working for an agency of less than a hundred sworn have/will work calls like that solo thousands of times in an average career; I know I certainly have. Most of the country isn't policed like you see on TV with multiple officers showing up for every minor CFS, and in my jurisdiction a situation like that (from what I could tell by the phone conversation) was a fairly benign call and wouldn't have garnered any particular threat warranting a multiple officer response.

[Mr_White]

The very common "SHOW ME YOUR HANDS!!!!!" thing is an excuse for the bad guy to move, which puts the copper at an initiative deficit. I specifically taught guys to never do that.

Yep, definitely. Pretty hard to react very quickly and decisively if you have to differentiate between moving his hands because he is complying with the 'show me your hands' command you just gave, and moving his hands because he is bringing out a weapon.

[RoyGBiv]

In due time this will turn out to be one of the most valuable videos for officer safety we have, I have zero time to get into it now but I just want to drop a sentence related to this now, to the guys still answering the calls and working the streets, and ESPECIALLY the ones who have never been in a lethal encounter.
When your in the spot that rookie was in, and it's simply too late, and you have not tenths of seconds but hundredths of seconds to react, if you remember nothing else remember this; FIGHT THE GUN, NOT THE GUY.....
Most of us can see all the mistakes that led up to the point the pistol came out, I'll let others dissect that, but once the officer visually saw the pistol he had only one chance to stay alive, and that was to fight for control of that pistol, and he had hundredths of seconds to do it, instead, he put up his hand in a blocking type gesture, that's game over.

Be back for more on this later guys.
Thanks very much for the tactical mindset adjustment.

[Paul]

I suspect most COPs in America working for an agency of less than a hundred sworn have/will work calls like that solo thousands of times in an average career; I know I certainly have. Most of the country isn't policed like you see on TV with multiple officers showing up for every minor CFS, and in my jurisdiction a situation like that (from what I could tell by the phone conversation) was a fairly benign call and wouldn't have garnered any particular threat warranting a multiple officer response.

It happens at large agencies too. Very few officers get murdered in seemingly "dangerous" situations. No offense, but a the mindset of going to a "fairly benign" call is outright complacency. If it's "fairly benign" then it be still be "fairly benign" when sits a little longer and you wait for cover, and if it isn't benign then at least you'll have cover with you. It's not how many times we can get away with it that matters, it what happens that one time we get caught.

I don't want sound all high and mighty because for the first 8 years of my career I would have gone to that call by myself without a second thought. Answering 10-20 of those calls a week, it took 8 years before it bit me in the butt, and I was in a 4 on 1 fight for my life that resulted in a OIS. That was lesson learned in and of itself. To pile on to it, the guy I shot sued the city and department and part of the lawsuit was that I violated the department's call response policy. I had been cleared on the shooting by IA, there was a new internal investigation I was recommended for termination for violating the call response policy. Fortunately the city attorney at the time was pro-police and issued an opinion that accepted practices superseded policy and that it would be a wrongful termination. Instead I ended up with a demotion and suspension, and spending the next two years getting bounced between the property room, auto pound and dispatch. I never got a thank you for the years of hard work and keeping the stats favorable, at great risk to my own safety. When things when south there was no shortage of people waiting to throw me under the bus. It's not just officer safety it's also career safety.

[Chuck Haggard]

A domestic is NOT a "routine" call for service. Anyone that thinks so needs to get their head straight.


Yes, I totally get the issues with rural and small agency law enforcement.

[Wayne Dobbs]

A domestic is NOT a "routine" call for service. Anyone that thinks so needs to get their head straight.


Yes, I totally get the issues with rural and small agency law enforcement.

Like the other old guys around here, I saw things looking wrong when the guy left to get a jacket. And just like the murder of Trooper Coates, the lame ass pat down began on the side that was showing an empty hand! If you're going to do a search, do the job correctly and not half assed. Use some kind of ruse to get around on that pocketed hand, trap it and then announce the search. We have been getting killed by the same old losers, the same old ways, for many years. Can we believe that it can happen to us in our wonderful towns?

From another perspective, it shows those of us carrying concealed in pockets just how fast we can process a bad guy at close range if that need arises and we have a gun in hand.

[babypanther]

Watching this drives home the fact that Situational Awareness needs to be worked on minute to minute, no matter where you are in your LE career. Even though I knew the outcome of the video, the killer gave me the chills. There was something definitely off with that POS.

[NH Shooter]

Mods, my apologies if this has already been posted or not posted in the correct forum.

This sad video reminded me of one of the points covered in SN's managing unknown contacts: at 45 seconds into the video, the killer displayed the "grooming behavior" - touching his face - one of the signs that an attack is imminent. The fact that this POS had his hands in his pockets is something I'm surprised didn't draw a stronger (and more quick) reaction from the officer. Here's the link to the video;

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/15/arizona-cop-body-cam-captures-fatal-encounter-with-suspect/?intcmp=latestnews

RIP Officer Stewart.




Mod Note: I copied this post from a thread in Mindset and Tactics to prevent redundant threads.-- BOM

[LSP552]

These lessons are not new, and every officer has heard them before. The problem is that most don't believe "it" will every happen to them. "It" always happens to others. This is the mind set killer and why officers ignore pre-assault clues, do half ass pat downs, and fail to immediately gain control of a situation instead of reacting. They just aren't thinking worst case. It's a sad thing, but most officers really don't have a warrior/gun fighter mind set. And unfortunately, that's just how most administrations like it.

The speed that life and death encounters occur at makes prevention and action better strategies than reaction. But you have to believe that bad things will happen to you before you try and get ahead of them.

[railfancwb]

A somewhat related video with a happier ending.

http://bearingarms.com/hands-dont-shoot-activist-guns-unarmed-man-thankful-experience/?utm_source=bafbp&utm_medium=fbpage&utm_campaign=baupdate

[Chuck Haggard]

These lessons are not new, and every officer has heard them before. The problem is that most don't believe "it" will every happen to them. "It" always happens to others. This is the mind set killer and why officers ignore pre-assault clues, do half ass pat downs, and fail to immediately gain control of a situation instead of reacting. They just aren't thinking worst case. It's a sad thing, but most officers really don't have a warrior/gun fighter mind set. And unfortunately, that's just how most administrations like it.

The speed that life and death encounters occur at makes prevention and action better strategies than reaction. But you have to believe that bad things will happen to you before you try and get ahead of them.

Quoted for truth.

[Beat Trash]

These lessons are not new, and every officer has heard them before. The problem is that most don't believe "it" will every happen to them. "It" always happens to others. This is the mind set killer and why officers ignore pre-assault clues, do half ass pat downs, and fail to immediately gain control of a situation instead of reacting. They just aren't thinking worst case. It's a sad thing, but most officers really don't have a warrior/gun fighter mind set. And unfortunately, that's just how most administrations like it.

The speed that life and death encounters occur at makes prevention and action better strategies than reaction. But you have to believe that bad things will happen to you before you try and get ahead of them.

And this is my greatest challenge as a Relief Sergeant, trying to convince young officers that bad things can happen to them. And that they need to be ready to act appropriately if things are heading in a bad direction.

[Corlissimo]

Like the other old guys around here, I saw things looking wrong when the guy left to get a jacket. And just like the murder of Trooper Coates, the lame ass pat down began on the side that was showing an empty hand! If you're going to do a search, do the job correctly and not half assed. Use some kind of ruse to get around on that pocketed hand, trap it and then announce the search. We have been getting killed by the same old losers, the same old ways, for many years. Can we believe that it can happen to us in our wonderful towns?

From another perspective, it shows those of us carrying concealed in pockets just how fast we can process a bad guy at close range if that need arises and we have a gun in hand.

It seems that this (bold above) might have been the last point at which the officer could have pre-empted the attack.
As a civilian, I didn't really "flag" the shooter's going back to get something before coming out. But, the blading away of the shooter during the interview coupled with that right hand in the pocket scared the crap out of me.

As others have expressed, I feel kind of funny MMQB'ing things like this, but I definitely see the value as well as the need to do so.

Rest in Peace Officer Stewart.

[Chuck Haggard]

One never, ever, allows someone to go into another room and not monitor what they are doing. That is Cop 101 stuff.

[Coyotesfan97]

Last Thursday night I was just leaving some dog training and was driving to a local QT for a break. There is a mental health/detox center across the street from it. I was at the light for the QT when a call came out for unknown trouble at the center. It was a transfer from a neighboring agency and all they had was a male was on a cell phone asking for help.

When I pulled into the center I saw a counselor talking to a male who appeared somewhat agitated. As I got out of my car the counselor pointed to the male. I saw he was wearing a brown vest and I noticed right away he had his right hand in the vest pocket and the pocket had a rectangular bulge. He was shaking and moving his left hand all over the place. His right arm wasn't moving at all.

I stopped about 12 yards away from him and challenged him telling him not to move and asking if he had any guns or weapons on him. I hadn't drawn my pistol but my hand was on it and I remember feeling like my stance was "pre draw" mode. I was squared off on him and I was even lifting my heels slightly (old HK sub gun training coming through). He said no. I told him to turn around, keep his right hand in his pocket, and put his left hand on the back of his neck. He complied with my orders. I started to walk up to him and the counselor told me he was in a Meth psychosis. I stopped and considered that I was still by myself and did I really want to go hands on with a guy who might have a weapon in his hand in his pocket.

I stopped and waited for backup which didn't take to long to arrive. When the other Officer arrived I told him what was going on and had him cover me while I took hold of the suspect's right wrist and removed it from his pocket. I immediately saw he had a semi-auto pistol in his pocket. I took the pistol and my backup cuffed him up. It turned out to be a Jimenez 9mm with a round in the chamber. He also had a second magazine in one of his pockets.

Afterwards I talked to the counselor. This guy had been there for an hour and a half. He didn't think the guy had the gun on him when he was in the center but who knows. The counselor thought he'd stashed it in the parking lot. About 40 minutes before there was a prior call for the same guy at the center. Fire had been checking him and there were Officers out with him too. Did he have the gun on him or have it stashed nearby. Who knows. Under Miranda the suspect said he lied because he was trying to hide the gun from me because he had fired two shots twenty minutes before. We couldn't find any casings but two patients told us they thought they heard two shots earlier.

I think this thread was a great help to me to have disarmed this suspect without getting involved in a shooting. It reminded me of a couple tactics I might not have remembered if not for the freshness of reading this one. This guy, while compliant, wasn't in a right state of mind. It makes you think about the what ifs. What if I hadn't challenged him from a distance? What if I hadn't waited for another Officer? I have the feeling if I had let my guard down on this guy it might have ended badly.

So thank you for all the great tips in this thread!

[Chuck Haggard]

Perfectly handled Coyotesfan. Well done.

[SeriousStudent]

Coyotesfan97, I am delighted that you are safe, and removed a threat.

Good people are always in my prayers, whether they are in Anbar or Arizona.

Please, all of you, stay safe.

[RoyGBiv]

Coyotesfan97, I am delighted that you are safe, and removed a threat.

Good people are always in my prayers, whether they are in Anbar or Arizona.

Please, all of you, stay safe.
+ many,many.
Well done.

[LHS]

Very glad to see things turned out well. Stay safe out there!

[BaiHu]

Great thread and very educational. I appreciate all of the info. One question/comment , specifically for you veterans or retired guys:

I feel like political correctness has groomed a certain behavior that makes it very difficult to train people of the last generation or so out of. Do you all think that that is one of the major contributors to a) crappy training standards and b) not wanting to offend anyone?

[Paul]

I feel like political correctness has groomed a certain behavior that makes it very difficult to train people of the last generation or so out of. Do you all think that that is one of the major contributors to a) crappy training standards and b) not wanting to offend anyone?

Overall training standards are pretty high compared to the past, but they've always been crappy. As far as not wanting to offend people, Verbal Judo been around for 33 or 34 years and since day one administrators have latched on to the system thinking it's a magically way to do police work without offending anyone.

The problems are the same as they've ever been, they just have to be addressed differently. Times change, either you get with the program and learn how to make things work, or you're in a constant battle against the system. I'm not going to pretend that it's easy to do police work anymore, but it can still be done.

[BaiHu]

Thanks for your response.

[DNW]

I also think Blauer's "theory of presumed compliance" comes into play. When you experience positive outcomes, you expect them in the future. The "nicer" an area you work, and the more positive outcomes you experience, the more likely your brain expects them every time.

[BaiHu]

Thanks for that too DNW. I've never heard of Blauer's theory, but I've experienced it on both sides.

[Chuck Haggard]

This one went down VERY quickly, as they normally do;

http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/8219950-Video-SC-officer-killed-in-traffic-stop-shooter-gets-life

[BaiHu]

This one went down VERY quickly, as they normally do;

http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/8219950-Video-SC-officer-killed-in-traffic-stop-shooter-gets-life

They totally had time to put on the gun dildo before they approached the car :mad:

I decided to have this conversation with some non-gun friends of mine about officer safety/gun dildo stupidity. Trying to pry this stupid train off the tracks of their mindset is proving to be a Herculean effort. Sad...

[John Hearne]

I saw that one and the shooting from Illinois earlier this week. They both had something in common: three officers on-scene and an air of confidence about the officers. Very few people can conceive of how little advantage these numbers confer when someone else bring the surprise, speed, and violence of action to the fight.

[LSP552]

I saw that one and the shooting from Illinois earlier this week. They both had something in common: three officers on-scene and an air of confidence about the officers. Very few people can conceive of how little advantage these numbers confer when someone else bring the surprise, speed, and violence of action to the fight.

Agree John. It's because most officers just aren't thinking worst case/lethal threat.

[Chuck Haggard]

I saw that one and the shooting from Illinois earlier this week. They both had something in common: three officers on-scene and an air of confidence about the officers. Very few people can conceive of how little advantage these numbers confer when someone else bring the surprise, speed, and violence of action to the fight.

Which is exactly how we ended up with two murdered officers a couple of years ago.

Contact/cover is preached a lot in LE circles, I hardly ever see it applied in real life.

[John Hearne]

The Illinois shooting I referenced:
http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/8211680-Video-Ill-cop-suffers-career-ending-wounds-in-shootout/?utm_source=8208635&utm_medium=email&utm_content=TopNewsMainTitle&utm_campaign=P1Member&nlid=8208635

And, for giggles, another community organizer attends force-on-force training:
http://www.khou.com/story/news/local/2015/02/04/quanell-x-trains-with-the-missouri-city-police-department/22901953/

[Wayne Dobbs]

Which is exactly how we ended up with two murdered officers a couple of years ago.

Contact/cover is preached a lot in LE circles, I hardly ever see it applied in real life.

When I saw the SC shooting video, I immediately thought of your two guys Chuck. And, if that asshole had been tried in TX, there wouldn't have been a problem empaneling a jury to give him the needle.

Regarding contact/cover, I have taught it, preached it and seen it taught over and over, but it clearly wasn't in play there and these cops KNEW they were dealing with shooting suspects! John is right that numbers don't always provide safety, especially when you have an offender willing to make the play.

Turning things around (and using Tom Givens' analogy), if we are a street robbery victim, those same dynamics are in play that we have a brief advantage that can be expanded with audacity, speed and determination to deal with a deadly threat. And, pocket carry can be very useful...

[Chuck Haggard]

Santayana's admonition exists for good reason.


Where the idea of contact/cover really took off;

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/contact-cover-0

[DNW]

I have a philosophical issue with how contact/cover is sometimes applied. "Cover" can be applied very passively, and from too great a distance to be able to intervene given the speed at which violence can unfold. I prefer the concept of "control", and with this mindset position and distance is based on your ability to apply force if needed.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have a philosophical issue with how contact/cover is sometimes applied. "Cover" can be applied very passively, and from too great a distance to be able to intervene given the speed at which violence can unfold. I prefer the concept of "control", and with this mindset position and distance is based on your ability to apply force if needed.

Then arguably the cover officer ain't covering, which is different than everybody being a contact officer with no one playing cover, which is pretty much the norm for what I see.

[Chuck Haggard]

When I saw the SC shooting video, I immediately thought of your two guys Chuck. And, if that asshole had been tried in TX, there wouldn't have been a problem empaneling a jury to give him the needle.

Regarding contact/cover, I have taught it, preached it and seen it taught over and over, but it clearly wasn't in play there and these cops KNEW they were dealing with shooting suspects! John is right that numbers don't always provide safety, especially when you have an offender willing to make the play.

Turning things around (and using Tom Givens' analogy), if we are a street robbery victim, those same dynamics are in play that we have a brief advantage that can be expanded with audacity, speed and determination to deal with a deadly threat. And, pocket carry can be very useful...


The guy that murdered our two officers caught a 168gr BTHP in the neck while trying to aggress the team that had him surrounded in a house, that was a rather sudden turn of justice.

Ref the dynamics of what we see in this video, I concur that the roles change during a CCW/criminal contact, and this is where the CCW person being robbed or whatever has the advantage, they often get to take the initiative.

Lots of people wonder why the hit rate in police gunfights is so low, this video is a prime example, the issue is not marksmanship, it's tactics, and that the coppers often start their fight by getting shot up. That substantially changes the shooting problem.

[Paul]

From an admin perspective one of the best selling points one of contact and cover is significantly reducing embarrassing clerical errors. Team efforts in report writing usually result in settling lawsuits, tossed cases, lengthy IA investigations and general sloppiness. You may not be able to get it training time with officer safety in mind, but reducing liability and avoiding embarrassment in the media tend to be strong motivators.

[Casual Friday]

The Illinois shooting I referenced:
http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/8211680-Video-Ill-cop-suffers-career-ending-wounds-in-shootout/?utm_source=8208635&utm_medium=email&utm_content=TopNewsMainTitle&utm_campaign=P1Member&nlid=8208635

And, for giggles, another community organizer attends force-on-force training:
http://www.khou.com/story/news/local/2015/02/04/quanell-x-trains-with-the-missouri-city-police-department/22901953/

Oh Quanell X, hadn't heard that name in a couple years.