Todd Green and the HK VP9

[Comedian]

I may have missed it but i have yet to hear any feedback from Todd on the VP9. I am curious since he was such a fan of the P30. What say you Todd? Yay or nay?

[ToddG]

Haven't even touched one yet. In fact, I don't think I've seen one in person.

[JodyH]

So sad.

[ToddG]

If you're not carrying a 1911, get off my lawn!

[SLG]

If you're not carrying a 1911, get off my lawn!

Having fully aided and abetted in Todd's 1911 transformation, I still find it hard to believe I just read that.

I remember when we used to beat up on the guys shooting 1911's. We were both carrying Sig's back then. Now we're both carrying 1911's. Life imitating art, or something like that.

[JodyH]

Would that 1911 be chambered in 9mm?... *snicker*

[ToddG]

SLG -- You were the guy who put the idea in my head but I'm the one who pulled the trigger.

JodyH -- Yeah. What caliber are your HKs? :cool:

[JodyH]

I'm unashamedly, proudly, out of the closet 9mm.
I don't try to overcompensate with a 1911.

[ToddG]

Dude, I was 9x19 when 9x19 wasn't cool. I even own 9x19mm.com, bro.

And you don't need to compensate a 9mm 1911. They have very little recoil and muzzle flip.

[JHC]

The original Commander was a 9mm. It's retro.

[Comedian]

So not even curious Todd?

[JMorse]

This is shocking news. Haven't even seen one? Who are you and what have you done with Todd?

[ToddG]

So, I was sort of in and out of the hospital most of 2014. I think I went to the range maybe half a dozen times all year. I missed the VP9 and 320 going live. By the time I could shoot (which is still restricted even now), I had been able to read all about them.

If I were still teaching, I'd at least get familiarized with them. But since I just shoot for my own skill-building and enjoyment these days, they're more a curiosity than anything else.

[Surf]

Yep, I was / am an old school 1911 guy, but I ventured into the 9mike 1911 way back when it was despised in that platform. Hell I remember catching a lot of crap when I went to an STI double stack .40 2011. At least I could puff my chest with a higher capacity albeit a .40 short and weak roundas the .45 1911 snobs like to put it. At least it wasn't the even punier 9mm. Thought I would have to return my 1911 man card with a the 9x19 1911 and I kinda felt dirty waiting until the range was empty and no one around, so that I could shoot it. But now since they seem to have gained traction and more acceptance due to some of the cool kids out there sporting them, I don't have to wait until I have range space all to myself to shoot it. ;)

As for the VP9, it just doesn't fit me.

[JMorse]

I hear ya man, and am glad to hear you're getting back into the swing. Really curious to see what you think of it once you can check one out.

[Comedian]

Yeah im curious to see how Todd compares the VP9 with the P320 and the P30.

[Savage Hands]

Let the man heal and he'll let you know what he thinks if and when he can...

[Dagga Boy]

Todd is a 1911 snob now and has little need for soulless polymer service pistols.....which is good;)

[ToddG]

Todd is a 1911 snob now and has little need for soulless polymer service pistols.....which is good;)

Basically yeah. :cool:

[RAM Engineer]

Todd,

I always enjoyed how pragmatic your reviews and commentaries have been in the past. No brand or design loyalty, the only metrics of success are the timer, the group size, the reliability, durability, and conceal ability. I hope you haven't become a jingoistic 1911 fan now. I miss reading your analyses of the merits of various guns.

Get well soon!

Jason

[JHC]

Yep, I was / am an old school 1911 guy, but I ventured into the 9mike 1911 way back when it was despised in that platform. Hell I remember catching a lot of crap when I went to an STI double stack .40 2011. At least I could puff my chest with a higher capacity albeit a .40 short and weak roundas the .45 1911 snobs like to put it. At least it wasn't the even punier 9mm. Thought I would have to return my 1911 man card with a the 9x19 1911 and I kinda felt dirty waiting until the range was empty and no one around, so that I could shoot it. But now since they seem to have gained traction and more acceptance due to some of the cool kids out there sporting them, I don't have to wait until I have range space all to myself to shoot it. ;)

As for the VP9, it just doesn't fit me.

Is the "fit" thing around placement of controls? I've run into a little of that with the 320. Delightful pistol. But I've got to shoot it "thumbs down" for when my high thumbs get all Glock placed, they will impair the slide lock lever for doing its right thing at the right time.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Basically yeah. :cool:Wait, what? Who are you and what did you do to ToddG? Next you'll say how you dislike Chipotle and Taco Bell.

[mizer67]

Is the "fit" thing around placement of controls? I've run into a little of that with the 320. Delightful pistol. But I've got to shoot it "thumbs down" for when my high thumbs get all Glock placed, they will impair the slide lock lever for doing its right thing at the right time.

That's the VP9's fit and me, but being I'm left handed, I'm just glad there is a right side slide release.

You get used to the "correct" thumb placement after 3K rounds or so. I'm wrapping mine around the outside of my W/H thumb. I only run into issues now with odd shooting positions. I might end up doing some surgery on that lever to shorten it though, once I can get some spares from HK to cut and weld up.

[JV_]

Next you'll say how you dislike Chipotle and Taco Bell.We had a staff dinner last month and he didn't even recommend Chili's.

This is ToddG 2.0

[JHC]

That's the VP9's fit and me, but being I'm left handed, I'm just glad there is a right side slide release.

You get used to the "correct" thumb placement after 3K rounds or so. I'm wrapping mine around the outside of my W/H thumb. I only run into issues now with odd shooting positions. I might end up doing some surgery on that lever to shorten it though, once I can get some spares from HK to cut and weld up.

I should be able to adapt ok. In my decade of the 1911 (the '80's) I shot it thumbs locked down just fine. Only relatively recently started thumb on the safety to match up with Glock style. But it won't be a deal breaker as its an "R&D" sort of project, not an EDC alternative to 26,19,17.

[ToddG]

,
I hope you haven't become a jingoistic 1911 fan now.

Magic Eight Ball says "outlook not so good" on that one.


Next you'll say how you dislike Chipotle and Taco Bell.

Can't eat spicy food anymore. Worst. Side effect. Ever.


We had a staff dinner last month and he didn't even recommend Chili's.

The Chili's near there closed. I take no responsibility on that one.

[orionz06]

The Chili's near there closed. I take no responsibility on that one.


Dod a good restaurant take its place?

[ToddG]

PF Chang's. I liked it.

[JV_]

Dod a good restaurant take its place?

If you're referring to the physical location, I think it's now a Chuy's (Tex-Mex).
http://www.chuys.com/

[Up1911Fan]

PF Chang's. I liked it.

Love me some PF Changs!

[Surf]

Is the "fit" thing around placement of controls? I've run into a little of that with the 320. Delightful pistol. But I've got to shoot it "thumbs down" for when my high thumbs get all Glock placed, they will impair the slide lock lever for doing its right thing at the right time. I almost hate to comment further as saying anything negative about this pistol seems to cause a tear in the cosmos. But yes, placement and type of controls, or overall ergo's does not make the pistol efficient for me. I have smaller sized hands, or more so short fingers.

I will first admit that just like about everyone I was drooling to get my hands on one and would have pretty much purchased it sight unseen. Good thing I wasn't able to get one without handling it. As things calmed down and when I first handled the VP9 at the local shop, I played with it back to back with the P30 and PPQ. I was left completely underwhelmed by the VP9 at that initial introduction. It was immediately clear where the trade-offs were made in order to cut costs and put the VP9 at its current price point. Personally I have never cared for this style of magazine release and the VP9 ergo's do not fit me. I have small hands or short fingers and I cannot effectively release the slide with my primary hands thumb on the VP9 and the recessed release makes it worse, whereas the P30 and PPQ is much more conducive, however that is a personal issue / preference of mine on how I release a slide. I will note that the durability of the levers, especially the ambi side of the weapon seems to be lacking in thought and engineering, for cost savings, but true durability we be played out with time and may put that concern to bed. Also while I do like a striker fired pistol, I do not care for a hard reset so I felt left down or again "underwhelmed" when I dry fired it, but again that is just another personal preference.

I still attempted to keep an open mind and recently got to live fire the P30, PPQ and VP9 all back to back. Spent some reasonable time shooting them. Even after live fire and various drills / manipulations, my opinion remained the same. I so much wanted it to change from my initial impressions, but I had to be honest with myself. IMO, price out of the way, I would take a P30 or a PPQ over the VP9 hands down. I also don't like the cost of mags, lack of holster support, etc... Just wasn't my thing. For myself it was not a step forward from my current preference in a striker fired pistol, that fits my needs much better and is significantly less expensive for me.

It is a great gun, no doubt, just does not fit me.

[Trooper224]

I finally got my hands on a VP9 this evening. I was not overly impressed. For me personally, the grip is too small although ergonomically it felt all right. I was completely underwhelmed by the trigger. The PPQ triggers I've tried are far superior in every way. Pretty much a Glock-like trigger on this sample of one. It seemed like a good solid piece and I'm sure it is. If I was issued one I wouldn't complain, but hardly anything I'll be spending my own money on. My brief impressions after a few rounds down range tell me it's just another plastic fantastic and hardly worth the orgasmic adulation it's fanboys have heaped upon it.

[JodyH]

I think the VP9 has a better take up and break than the Glock and PPQ but the reset isn't as short and crisp and the reset is nowhere near as nice as the PPQ. For me the Glock trigger isn't as smooth as the VP9 nor as crisp as the PPQ.
Ergonomics wise I can work with all three.

[JBP55]

I think the VP9 has a better take up and break than the Glock and PPQ but the reset isn't as short and crisp and the reset is nowhere near as nice as the PPQ. For me the Glock trigger isn't as smooth as the VP9 nor as crisp as the PPQ.
Ergonomics wise I can work with all three.

I agree and will add the Glock trigger can easily be enhanced where it will compete with any striker fired pistol.

[breakingtime91]

The size makes a no go for me. The perfect size gun for me is a glock 19, still have not found a pistol in the same size category

[Dagga Boy]

I d like to know about the cost savings and cost cutting in the VP9 vs. The P30. I know exactly how the cost was attained, so I am curious as to what you guys are seeing different and the obvious areas of savings. This should be interesting.

Edited to add: I could care less if people like the VP9 or not. There are good guns out there that I hate the ergonomics on (Beretta 92F comes to mind). I could also give a care if someone likes something else better "just cuse", but I do get concerned about folks posting issues that are not based on fact that turn into fact because it is on the net.

[runcible]

It was immediately clear where the trade-offs were made in order to cut costs and put the VP9 at its current price point. Personally I have never cared for this style of magazine release and the VP9 ergo's do not fit me.

Could you elaborate on the first part, please? I was also curious why you gave such consideration to the P30 and PPQ as well, given the second part; or was that just to best consider what the VP9 brought?

[JHC]

Sorry Surf. :o

[JodyH]

I d like to know about the cost savings and cost cutting in the VP9 vs. The P30. I know exactly how the cost was attained, so I am curious as to what you guys are seeing different and the obvious areas of savings. This should be interesting.
I'm holding a VP9 and a PPQ in my grubby little paws right this minute.
For striker fired pistols that have street prices in the same range their quality is also pretty much identical.
Both are obviously well engineered and well executed.

I've heard a lot of people complaining about the VP9's thinner slide release lever, especially on the right side versus the P30.
On the VP9 this isn't a loaded, stressed part like the P30. The VP9 has a locking block insert for the barrel to cam off of and the P30 barrel cams on the slide release axle.
The recoil assembly on the VP9 isn't as complex as the P30 either but then again they have different levels of energy to control (the P30 recoil spring shares the load with the hammer spring).
The VP9 appears to be a well designed and well executed striker fired pistol that is on par or better than similarly priced competitors.

[Sasage]

I traded my PPQ for the VP9 and I like the initial HK trigger pull and the reset of the PPQ.

[Beat Trash]

Now that you've made the trade, are you satisfied with your VP9? Or do you wish you still had the PPQ?

[KevinB]

I got the wife a VP9 for an anniversary gift last year -- we both have a few hundred rounds thru it - and I am still underwhelmed.
Its the pistol I really wanted to like - but couldn't.

Trigger bit me like my old (1990's vintage) Glock21 -- the trigger safety just loves to pinch my finger on reset/firing

Accuracy has been okay - but worse than my M&P's and wife's Glock/M&P's
and I have some failures to lock on the last round

[JBP55]

First accuracy issue I have heard about on a VP9.

[David S.]

and I have some failures to lock on the last round

Self induced or mechanical failure?

[KevinB]

First accuracy issue I have heard about on a VP9.

Not accuracy issues -- just I was not as accurate with it than others.




Self induced or mechanical failure?

First three mags did not lock.

After than it never happened to my wife - but has happened to others (me included) so it may be the grip getting in the way of the slide stop coming up correctly.

I don't Not like the gun, but that just after everyone's initial impressions, I had expected more, and came away disappointed to what I had been expecting. Given the option of it or a Glock, I would take it -- and plan on putting a RDS on one this year, and trying to find some love.

[Surf]

Sorry Surf. :oNot a problem, I knew what would happen if I said anything unflattering, yet I did it anyway. I tend not to get wrapped up, or emotionally attached to my purchases, so if someone does not like my own preference no big deal as no two people are alike and no pistol will fit every single person.

Again I don't hate the pistol, but as Kevin mentioned maybe I was expecting too much with all the hype. It is the best $550 pistol that you can buy for $650. I am just going to leave this one alone from now on. ;)

[runcible]

Not a problem, I knew what would happen if I said anything unflattering, yet I did it anyway. I tend not to get wrapped up, or emotionally attached to my purchases, so if someone does not like my own preference no big deal as no two people are alike and no pistol will fit every single person.

Again I don't hate the pistol, but as Kevin mentioned maybe I was expecting too much with all the hype. It is the best $550 pistol that you can buy for $650. I am just going to leave this one alone from now on. ;)

I'm not emotionally attached to the VP9; I didn't understand what you were writing, so I asked for elaboration.

It stands to reason that cost-cutting measures are something we can/should all be able to recognize.

[JonInWA]

I thought it was a neat gun, and a good direction for HK. I also did not consider that it offered significant enough reasons/incentive to move from my primary platform of Glock. For someone initially choosing which platform to choose/commit to, the playing ground would be more level.

Best, Jon

[Dagga Boy]

Again, I could care less if folks like the gun or not. Doesn't even need to be a logical reason. Doesn't bother me at all. What I am still waiting to have identified are the "obvious" cost cutting issues. I am curious as to what they are, that is all. Trigger sucks, in reliable, slide is crooked, barrel cants went it is locked open, high bore line and slick grips that make it impossible to hold on to, whatever.....heard it all, don't care. Obvious cost cutting, I care.

[Trooper224]

I have no dog in the fight, but for the sake of edification I'd like to hear about the obvious cost cutting measures. I didn't see anything cheap or slipshod about the VP9 I handled.

[GJM]

Anyone have an idea, excluding overhead, what HK's direct cost to make the VP9 is, and how that compares to the P30?

[Dcowboyscr]

I to am curious about the obvious cost cutting on the VP9. It seems every bit as HK quality as my USPs, P30, HK45. $650 gun? I see the standard sight model everywhere for $600 and Glock Gen-4's for $550 in my area.

[JBP55]

I to am curious about the obvious cost cutting on the VP9. It seems every bit as HK quality as my USPs, P30, HK45. $650 gun? I see the standard sight model everywhere for $600 and Glock Gen-4's for $550 in my area.

The Gen 4 Glocks.come with 3 magazines and a VP9 with 3 magazines will cost approximately $100 more after tax which is still a good price for a HK pistol.

[Dagga Boy]

The Gen 4 Glocks.come with 3 magazines and a VP9 with 3 magazines will cost approximately $100 more after tax which is still a good price for a HK pistol.

It also comes with Night Sights on the model with the extra magazine, which is where most of that extra cost is.

[JBP55]

It also comes with Night Sights on the model with the extra magazine, which is where most of that extra cost is.

The LE version with night sights and 3 magazines costs approximately $100 more than a Gen 4 Glock with night sights and 3 magazines.

[OhioFinance]

Not that it matters but the base version VP9 can be found for $545 or so on gunbroker. Mags are 38 bucks. Again total cost unless you get blue label price is so close to a Glock that it shouldn't matter. Not buying because of the sunk cost on the Glock platform I get. Not buying because of the initial cost is simply not accurate. For the record I have both the VP9 and G17.

[cornstalker]

Not that it matters but the base version VP9 can be found for $545 or so on gunbroker. Mags are 38 bucks. Again total cost unless you get blue label price is so close to a Glock that it shouldn't matter. Not buying because of the sunk cost on the Glock platform I get. Not buying because of the initial cost is simply not accurate. For the record I have both the VP9 and G17.

Please forgive the sidetrack, but where did you see the $38 magazines?

I am certainly no expert, but I sure can't see any corners that were cut to cheapen the VP9. In fact, compared to the M&P45c I once had, my VP9 looks amazing inside and out.

[Default.mp3]

Please forgive the sidetrack, but where did you see the $38 magazines?

Probably direct from H&K USA. Whenever they have stuff in stock, it's actually a pretty damn good price, compared to the outside vendors.

[ToddG]

Without having two guns in front of me to examine part by part, my guess is that the cost cutting is more a factor of (a) design and (b) profit margin than anything else.

A SFA is significantly cheaper to build that a hammer fired gun. The mechanism is simpler, requires fewer parts, and many of the parts that the DA needs are more complex and more expensive to create.

[orionz06]

Look at that logic!

[GJM]

Without having two guns in front of me to examine part by part, my guess is that the cost cutting is more a factor of (a) design and (b) profit margin than anything else.

A SFA is significantly cheaper to build that a hammer fired gun. The mechanism is simpler, requires fewer parts, and many of the parts that the DA needs are more complex and more expensive to create.

Gives me an idea of a marketing slogan for HK -- "the VP9 costs no more per part than a Glock."

[Dagga Boy]

Not a problem, I knew what would happen if I said anything unflattering, yet I did it anyway. I tend not to get wrapped up, or emotionally attached to my purchases, so if someone does not like my own preference no big deal as no two people are alike and no pistol will fit every single person.

Again I don't hate the pistol, but as Kevin mentioned maybe I was expecting too much with all the hype. It is the best $550 pistol that you can buy for $650. I am just going to leave this one alone from now on. ;)

I could care less about liking a purchase, as I 100% agree with you that no two people may like the same thing. I have owned plenty of guns I really wanted too like but they just don't work for me (I have bought no less than 10 Glock 21's and 30's over the years trying to figure out a way for them to fit me....just not to be, but I don't fault Glock for that). Again, also not having an issue with not overwhelmed with the gun and it doesn't float your boat ( I have also bought plenty of the "newest hot thing" that I didn't give me the warm and fuzzy's others got). I do have an issue with a claim of obvious cost cutting statements that don't get backed up with anything and then going with the "I am going to leave this one alone". I expect this with some of the new posters at HKPro (which is why I am left that forum) or other bubble gum hobby forums, but not from folks with an SME title on this forum. So is this a "don't question an SME" thing, or am I just too stupid to figure out what those obvious cheap parts or processes are and an answer isn't necesary?

[ffhounddog]

Without having two guns in front of me to examine part by part, my guess is that the cost cutting is more a factor of (a) design and (b) profit margin than anything else.

A SFA is significantly cheaper to build that a hammer fired gun. The mechanism is simpler, requires fewer parts, and many of the parts that the DA needs are more complex and more expensive to create.

I said that on 3 gun hobby forums and got told by 3 long time blah blah blah 10k postd folks I was wrong. If you have less parts to make then you have less money to put into the gun.

As soon as I get a holster for the VP9 with light (hurry up safariland...) I do wish it was more the size of the Glock 19 vice the M&P9. I understand why, just thought it was going to be the great Unicorn for me.

[LostDuke]

Without having two guns in front of me to examine part by part, my guess is that the cost cutting is more a factor of (a) design and (b) profit margin than anything else.

A SFA is significantly cheaper to build that a hammer fired gun. The mechanism is simpler, requires fewer parts, and many of the parts that the DA needs are more complex and more expensive to create.


That explains it for me, because after using the VP9 not only I felt the same level of quality than other H&K's, but in the back of my mind I started to consider the P30 overpriced, not the VP9.

[JHC]

Would the method of anchoring the S shaped trigger spring thing be an example of a cheaper shortcut? Much is made of how the big HK23 uses that design too but it anchors differently per pics of both displayed side by side. So there's one thing that has been aired out previously.

[SteveK]

That explains it for me, because after using the VP9 not only I felt the same level of quality than other H&K's, but in the back of my mind I started to consider the P30 overpriced, not the VP9.

That's my take on it. My guess is that if HK really wanted to compete with Glock they knew they were going to have to price the VP9 accordingly. I really don't see a company like HK lowering quality for any reason, that's their hallmark. My bet is they are willing to make less profit per unit in an attempt to grab a bigger share of the SFA market. My .02 worth.

[Peally]

Well I finally got to shoot one of these on Wednesday and I will say I was pleasantly surprised at it's performance. I normally shoot an HK45 for IDPA and USPSA so the different grip and thus magazine release location really threw me for a loop but compared to the usual .45 that thing spit out 9mm with pin point precision. It's also more compact than what I expected, like an idiot I actually asked if it was some sort of compact model since it felt like a baby 45 in my hands :D

I also thought the trigger was pretty impressive. I'm really used to the HK45 so the VP9 was really crisp in comparison.

[pr1042]

I said that on 3 gun hobby forums and got told by 3 long time blah blah blah 10k postd folks I was wrong. If you have less parts to make then you have less money to put into the gun.

As soon as I get a holster for the VP9 with light (hurry up safariland...) I do wish it was more the size of the Glock 19 vice the M&P9. I understand why, just thought it was going to be the great Unicorn for me.

Latest ETA on VP9 holsters has moved from mid January to March 15 :( This is all I'm waiting on to sell my last Glock

[Casual Friday]

Fondled and coonfingered a VP9 today at the fun store. I couldn't see any obvious signs of cutting any corners. It seemed really well made, and it felt like it was making sweet, passionate love to my hand. It also didn't appear to be as large as it seems on the internet, which was also true for me with the P30L when I first laid hold of one of those. If they'd had a VP9 to rent, I would have today. The nice young lady behind the counter had no problems with me dry firing it, and the trigger was nice.

[Jared]

I played with another one at a gun store today. I noticed that when I dry fired it, the slide would move forward a tiny amount. This was very repeatable, every time. I went home and checked against a Glock I have, and it doesn't do this.

I'm really not sure what to make of it, and it might not do it if there was a snap cap in place. Anyone else noticed his with the VP9, or any other striker fired gun for that matter?

[catatonic]

I played with another one at a gun store today. I noticed that when I dry fired it, the slide would move forward a tiny amount. This was very repeatable, every time. I went home and checked against a Glock I have, and it doesn't do this.

I'm really not sure what to make of it, and it might not do it if there was a snap cap in place. Anyone else noticed his with the VP9, or any other striker fired gun for that matter?
My G19 slide moves vertically during dry fire while my VP9 does not... I don't know if it's a result of tolerance stacking in some weapons.

[Hambo]

I fondled a VP9 last week...and I liked it. Felt good and the trigger was great. Here's my question though: anybody know if there's enough real estate to mill the slide for an RDS?

[LSP972]

Working off memory here (I traded mine for another P30), but IIRC the peculiar FPB mechanism of this pistol is right where the slide would need to be milled; and there's a pretty big void on the other side, a'la P30.

I have no doubt that somebody will dfigure out how to do it, but it ain't going to be as easy as a Glock, for sure.

.

[Default.mp3]

Here's my question though: anybody know if there's enough real estate to mill the slide for an RDS?
Mark Housel of L&M Precision:
http://i.imgur.com/C1FGJNs.jpg