The BEST bang-for-the-buck 45 ACP ever?? I think so. (WARNING - PIC HEAVY)

[Flight Medic]

Just purchased a Turkish Sarsilmaz K2 (CZ clone) 45 ACP pistol from Buds Gun Shop for $398. For that small price, I got an ALL-STEEL, SA/DA, HIGH CAP (14+1 round), 45 ACP...and I can say with NO hesitation that it is the finest sub-$400 pistol I have ever had the pleasure to shoot!!

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/r/673/VfaLC9.jpg


The fit and finish on this thing is good...I mean REALLY GOOD (any imperfections you see in the photos are most likely oil and fingerprints from my hands...the finish was truly superb). Coloration was even (blue-black) with no dark spots, and no visible machine marks anywhere on the exterior. In my hands, it feels every bit as nice as my "Made in Italy" Beretta 92FS.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/r/538/SccN3A.jpg

Then again, Sarsilmaz is licensed by CZ to copy their weapon, so its no doubt the standards are a bit higher than other CZ-clones (Sarsilmaz also made the ArmaLite AR-24 CZ75 clone).




https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/450x600q90/r/661/jpOZCb.jpg
OK, I'll admit the plastic grip panels feel a bit cheap, but they kept the weapon planted firmly in my hands (as did the front strap serrations)...and again, for the price point, its really hard to complain.



Both the slide-to-frame fit and barrel-to-frame fit had excellent tolerances, with no play or rattle (clean rails, NO grease)...as good as any sub-$1000 1911 I've seen.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/450x600q90/r/673/uajcg9.jpg

Lockup was solid, slide action was smooth and the trigger was crisp with minimal take-up and overtravel, and nice audible reset. I did not measure trigger pull, but Sarsilmaz states 9lbs in DA (and I'm going to guess about 4.5lbs in SA). There was no grit whatsoever. Safety switch was nice and firm, I would have no reservations about carrying this cocked-n-locked (IF, that is, I ever decide I need 15-rounds of 45 ACP on my hip).




The barrel and guide rod are hard chromed, which makes cleaning a bit easier...

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/r/673/Fbjo7j.jpg



and the barrels are fitted to the gun and serialized.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/r/540/DYaknk.jpg




The rear sight is adjustable for both windage and elevation...

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/r/538/QgAS0P.jpg


The double-stack, 14-round magazines are manufactured by MEC-GAR, and operate flawlessly...

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/450x600q90/r/910/yA6w1a.jpg

And seat flush in the frame...

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/320x240q90/r/904/ylnZmF.jpg

[Flight Medic]

Here is the K2 side-by-side with my Sig P220 (my only other non-1911 45)...

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/450x600q90/r/904/bdnTuf.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/450x600q90/r/901/Y2bxNZ.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/r/538/FHpAjN.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/450x600q90/r/538/ZmG99l.jpg


The pistols are very similar (aside from night sights and decocker on P220), when holding them next to each other it was hard to believe I paid more than twice the price (of the K2) for the P220...not that I'm complaining, I love my Sig Sauer. But what truly surprised me was, even though the K2 holds six more rounds than the P220, its girth (grip) is only 1/8" larger in circumference...



K2 (at widest point) = 6.25"
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/r/661/iqnPQz.jpg



P220 (at widest point) = 6.125"
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/r/538/m8hgVX.jpg




SAR K2
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/r/537/fLHXh8.jpg




SIG P220
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/r/537/CnIp9N.jpg


My hands are small (7.5" from tip of middle finger to wrist), and you can see that I get a better grip on the P220...but its not a HUGE difference, and I really like the extended beaver tail on the K2.



Performance wise, recoil was much softer with the heavier K2 (as to be expected), and the K2 was every bit as accurate (in my hands) as the P220. Now granted, I'm no IPSC National Champion...but I'm no Parkinson's patient either. I feel my marksmanship is an accurate representation of an average EXPERIENCED shooter, and the K2 performed magnificently!!

Sorry I meant to include photographs of my groupings with each weapon, but accidently left the targets at the range. However, anyone in the DFW area who is willing to meet me at my gun club, you're welcome to shoot the K2. Better yet, buy one for yourself...you WONT be disappointed!!


Thanks for letting me share.

[GardoneVT]

Some words to offer here.

One, Sarsilmaz never had a license from CZ. That company partnered with Tanfoglio , but the partnership fell through . Sarsilmaz now makes clones of Tanfoglios, though the K2 differs in using a Sig type lockup instead of the Tanfoglio design.

While they can build a gun decently, Sarsilmaz is imported through EAA, which means you're totally on your own for parts and service. Need a new safety? Don't count on it fitting. Need a new hammer? You may or may not get what your ordered . Need anything more in depth then a magazine? You're basically hosed. Owning their imports is like driving a grey market Japanese R34 Skyline- there is no 'going to the dealer' for service.

Now I'm not trying to knock your buying choice. But I ran 1000 rounds through two Tanfoglio 10mm pistols before being fed up with EAAs non-service. Glocks and HKs dont break stuff often, but at least those companies you can order parts to rectify matters if they do .

[WDW]

There is just no way someone would be better served with this, than by buying a used G19 or new/used M&P .45. If you like it, great, but I would never recommend this to anyone. Questionable quality, no holsters, no sights, no parts. No thanks.

[SLG]

I don't know the OP, but I took his post differently then the previous posters. They are correct, but I don't think the OP intended to say we should abandon our proven weapons. Just that he bought a sub $400 gun on a bit of a whim, and was pleasantly surprised with how well it was put together. I've been wrong before though...

It is awfully tough to by an inexpensive weapon and have it be pretty nice. Something has to give somewhere.

[LSP972]

It is awfully tough to by an inexpensive weapon and have it be pretty nice. Something has to give somewhere.

Indeed… and in the case of some eastern European products, its durability.

On the one hand, I can understand joy at a low price. On the other hand, we're not talking about a blender. Personally, I think Sam Walton did more to mess up the head of the average American consumer than any other factor. We are obsessed with the lowest possible price; and who cares about quality? As long as it is "good enough"; but of course, good enough rarely is.

I see this same phenomena in my radio-controlled model aircraft hobby; who cares how good it is, all I want to know is will it work, and who sells it the cheapest??? That, and standing in line like a dumb-ass for the next iteration of the iPhone or designer felony flyers, seems to be our new favorite activities.

OP, I hope you aren't feeling too slammed about these replies… but you did basically come onto a Formula One forum promoting a Yugo…;)

.

[WDW]

I think it's actually pretty easy to get quality at a very low price. Used Glocks are available at sub $400 prices all day long along with a host of other high quality guns. Anytime something is promoted as "built on the same machinery or under license or partnership of", I automatically quit listening & forget I ever saw it. That's just asking to be disappointed in the long run.

[Jeep]

I think it's actually pretty easy to get quality at a very low price. Used Glocks are available at sub $400 prices all day long along with a host of other high quality guns. Anytime something is promoted as "built on the same machinery or under license or partnership of", I automatically quit listening & forget I ever saw it. That's just asking to be disappointed in the long run.

Indeed. I bought a used Gen 2, G19 for less than $400 a year or two ago. I cleaned it, removed the heavy oil someone thought belonged in the striker channel, put in new springs and it has gone the better part of 10,000 rounds without an issue. The Sarsilmaz looks nice, but personally I am through buying guns for which you can't easily get spare parts.

[Casual Friday]

It is awfully tough to by an inexpensive weapon and have it be pretty nice. Something has to give somewhere.

Agreed. If the gun was a polymer frame at that price, it would be easier for me to say it might not have as many corners cut in manufacturing, but being all steel at that price, something's got to give for sure. I work at a steel and aluminum machining and fab shop, and with the price of steel and the cost of machine time and labor the $398 price tag doesn't inspire confidence in the build quality.

[LSP972]

I think it's actually pretty easy to get quality at a very low price. Used Glocks are available at sub $400 prices all day long...

Yes, but I took this to be a discussion of NIB pistols. Buying used changes the game tremendously.

.

[GardoneVT]

Agreed. If the gun was a polymer frame at that price, it would be easier for me to say it might not have as many corners cut in manufacturing, but being all steel at that price, something's got to give for sure. I work at a steel and aluminum machining and fab shop, and with the price of steel and the cost of machine time and labor the $398 price tag doesn't inspire confidence in the build quality.

The cost of labor for a nation like Turkey isn't the same as it is in nations like Germany, US, etc.

That being said, what the OPs losing with the K2 is effective local support-and that's worth a premium. Shoot often enough, and you'll wear something out or need a part. Without logistical support, that guns a paperweight waiting to happen.

[Casual Friday]

The cost of labor for a nation like Turkey isn't the same as it is in nations like Germany, US, etc.

That being said, what the OPs losing with the K2 is effective local support-and that's worth a premium. Shoot often enough, and you'll wear something out or need a part. Without logistical support, that guns a paperweight waiting to happen.

I'm aware of the difference in labor cost, as well as the propensity to use extremely low grade materials by foreign companies, both of which are a bit disconcerting when it comes to firearms, even if they are just a range blaster.

[Odin Bravo One]

Meh.

I've paid much for, for much worse. And log support is only as good as the company is willing to make it. No shortage of issues with support from the "big guys".

[hufnagel]

Feels like an awful lot of jumping on the guy for presenting his opinion. Unless you're all thinking he shilling for the company. If that's the case then just say so.

[Casual Friday]

I didn't see anyone jumping on the guy. He gave the opinion that it's the best bang for you buck 45acp and in true internet forum fashion, other people gave their opinions as well.

[GardoneVT]

Feels like an awful lot of jumping on the guy for presenting his opinion. Unless you're all thinking he shilling for the company. If that's the case then just say so.

The trouble is, his post says "Bang for the Buck".

Such does not exist in the World of Guns. If a handgun is priced below market value given its features, there's a reason why. The OP may have saved physical up front cash, but he'll pay in the long run when EAA botches an order or can't/won't fix his gun, or he has to pay a premium to get a holster , etc.

Its a lesson I re-learned very recently.Even a range toy is no fun if it goes down and you can't fix it.

[hufnagel]

I see his post as, he posted his feeling and impressions. I didn't take anything more than that from his writing. I will admit my "shill" meter twitches a bit though, but I have no data to back it up so it remains merely a twitch. I've learned to ignore buzz words like "bang for the buck" a long time ago and focus on the merits (and detriments) of an item.

[SLG]

… but you did basically come onto a Formula One forum promoting a Yugo…;)

.

One of my new favorite lines.

[David S.]

I'm interested to see a 2000 round challenge and then some long term testing.

Cheers,
D

[Bigghoss]

OP, I honestly hope the gun works out well for you and I'm sure everyone else feels the same. I'm interested to see how it hold up with use.

I can understand some of the other folks here who are concerned with what seems like people crapping on this thread but the reason I joined PF is because these guys are dead serious about guns, literally. When they talk guns it's life-or-death and when you expect to be able to trust your life to a tool you have to be skeptical of anything unfamiliar. I don't want to hear from dudes that think one friggen box of ammo is a luxury, and use "100 rounds" and "trouble-free" when talking about a gun they've had for two years. (not that anyone in this thread is.)

In the end it's more important to offer dissenting opinions so everyone who sees this can be better informed than to preserve someone's feelings.

[45dotACP]

OP, I honestly hope the gun works out well for you and I'm sure everyone else feels the same. I'm interested to see how it hold up with use.

I can understand some of the other folks here who are concerned with what seems like people crapping on this thread but the reason I joined PF is because these guys are dead serious about guns, literally. When they talk guns it's life-or-death and when you expect to be able to trust your life to a tool you have to be skeptical of anything unfamiliar. I don't want to hear from dudes that think one friggen box of ammo is a luxury, and use "100 rounds" and "trouble-free" when talking about a gun they've had for two years. (not that anyone in this thread is.)

In the end it's more important to offer dissenting opinions so everyone who sees this can be better informed than to preserve someone's feelings.

Well in that case, here's my take: The gun is not at all going to be a better choice than a G21 or M&P45, which can be found for hardly a few bucks more. If you want the best bang for your buck in .45 ACP, a Glock or Smith is absolutely the way to go if you are carrying a .45 and seek to offend the great and mighty JMB by not carrying a 1911...

The review was written like it was made for a gun rag, with everything from measuring the width of the grip, to the ever present "I have small-ish hands, but this gun fits me just right ZOMG!". Sorry, but I seriously thought it might have been plagiarized from a Guns and Ammo back issue...to the point where I began looking through my back issues ;)

I truly wasn't sure if this was a troll or a shill or whatever, but that anybody would treat some Turkish gun made out of recycled lawnchairs and hubcaps as if it were a quality defensive arm makes my eyes bug for a little bit. I've heard some of the Turkish stuff isn't too bad for a toy, but toys break too, and as mentioned, it's a pain in the booty getting repairs done. EAA's legendarily terrible customer service would give me pause right then and there.

To the OP, if you're not shilling, or trolling or whatever, I do apologize, I hope the gun works for you and that you enjoy it thoroughly. I'd be interested in seeing any reports after 5,000 or 10,000 rounds. I hope you need never trust your life to it. Also, You're gonna get laughed at for bringing in that eastern European stuff to this forum. Remember, this forum took a little while to even get used to the notion that CZ's could be relied upon ;)

[Malamute]

The BEST bang-for-the-buck 45 ACP ever??

I was pretty happy buying a real live 1911 (not A-1) Colt for about that. It wasnt quite pristine, but for whats now a 101 year old gun, I felt I did pretty good. I chose to buy a few more parts to get it closer to original, some better sights, and have it blued. Overall though, I think it was one of my better purchases.

[cjb1911]

Looks like the best thing to come out of Turkey, since "Turkish Star Wars"!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ToddG]

Well in that case, here's my take: The gun is not at all going to be a better choice than a G21 or M&P45, which can be found for hardly a few bucks more.

He wanted a DA/SA gun.


The review was written like...

I understand where you're coming from and don't disagree, but the writing style isn't an issue. Let's keep the discussion about the gun and not about the writer/style, please.


I'd be interested in seeing any reports after 5,000 or 10,000 rounds.

Ditto. Though I think many of us will have egg on our faces if it is running well at 5k.

For the record, I wouldn't have purchased that gun myself. But the OP seemed pretty specific about what he wanted and his goal of spending as little as possible while getting those features. It could just be a range toy for him or a game gun in which case its "street" reliability and such may be of little worry. I do agree about the Formula One forum/yugo thing (which, as SLG said, was utterly hilarious) but as you said yourself, the forum went from strongly anti-CZ to being pretty pro-CZ over time.

I still don't like CZs either. :cool:

[Flight Medic]

Well in that case, here's my take: The gun is not at all going to be a better choice than a G21 or M&P45, which can be found for hardly a few bucks more. If you want the best bang for your buck in .45 ACP, a Glock or Smith is absolutely the way to go if you are carrying a .45 and seek to offend the great and mighty JMB by not carrying a 1911...

The review was written like it was made for a gun rag, with everything from measuring the width of the grip, to the ever present "I have small-ish hands, but this gun fits me just right ZOMG!". Sorry, but I seriously thought it might have been plagiarized from a Guns and Ammo back issue...to the point where I began looking through my back issues ;)

I truly wasn't sure if this was a troll or a shill or whatever, but that anybody would treat some Turkish gun made out of recycled lawnchairs and hubcaps as if it were a quality defensive arm makes my eyes bug for a little bit. I've heard some of the Turkish stuff isn't too bad for a toy, but toys break too, and as mentioned, it's a pain in the booty getting repairs done. EAA's legendarily terrible customer service would give me pause right then and there.

To the OP, if you're not shilling, or trolling or whatever, I do apologize, I hope the gun works for you and that you enjoy it thoroughly. I'd be interested in seeing any reports after 5,000 or 10,000 rounds. I hope you need never trust your life to it. Also, You're gonna get laughed at for bringing in that eastern European stuff to this forum. Remember, this forum took a little while to even get used to the notion that CZ's could be relied upon ;)

I apologize if my review was a bit too enthusiastic...I was just really impressed.

First off, I'm a flight paramedic by profession...I have NO affiliation with ANY gun dealer, manufacturer or importer. I simply LOVE all-metal pistols and the low price allowed me to take a chance an unproven import. I guess my title should have read "best all-metal bang-for-the-buck pistol to take a chance on" LOL. I am well aware of the AMAZING reliability and performance of polymer pistols such as Glock and M&P (I own a few Tactical Tupperware guns my self).

I appreciate the input from all of you on the issue of reliability and customer support. I did not address the issue because I cannot speak to it...this is my FIRST Turkish gun and I have not had ANY dealings with EAA. Quite frankly, at this price point, it won't break my heart (or my wallet) if its a toss-away if anything happens to it (and if it does, lesson learned). But from what I've read...Sarsilmaz is the third largest weapons manufacturer in Europe, and they produce for the Turkish military...so I assumed it was a quality gun. It "appears" to be very well built, anyway.

I would be happy to come back with a long term test result, but I seriously doubt I will EVER put 10,000 rounds through this gun unless ammo starts falling off trees. However, I will be happy to let anyone in my area borrow it for a 5000 round test...as long as you're not purposely trying to blow it up with funky, over-pressured ammo!!

All I can tell you is, so far I've put 200 rounds (Speer Lawman 230gr) through it...and it went bang EVERY TIME with zero malfs. I know 200 doesn't say much, but its all I got for ya right now.

Again, thanks for letting me share.

[Suvorov]

Seriously, outside of this forum, how many pistols are likely to see 10,000 rounds in its lifetime? How likely is the person who is looking to buy a low priced European military gun like this to put 10,000 rounds though their gun?

I think a successful 1000-2000 round challenge would vet this pistol for the intent that 99% of its buyers purchased it for. Maybe the "bang for the buck" comment was a little misleading, but I appreciate any real world (not gun rag) feedback on pistols like these Turkish guns or any of the Serbo/Hungarian/Spainish/ect auto guns. I would much rather point the extremely price conscious gun buyer who wants something to throw lead down range and maybe serve as a magical talisman to drive away goblins in the night towards something like this than a High Point.

[Flight Medic]

<SNIP>The review was written like it was made for a gun rag, with everything from measuring the width of the grip, to the ever present "I have small-ish hands, but this gun fits me just right ZOMG!". </SNIP>



To be fair, I DID say the Sig Sauer fits me better. ;-)




<SNIP> but that anybody would treat some Turkish gun made out of recycled lawnchairs and hubcaps as if it were a quality defensive arm makes my eyes bug for a little bit. </SNIP>

Well, from what I understand, the Turkish military relies upon them...but whatever.




You're gonna get laughed at for bringing in that eastern European stuff to this forum.



LESSON LEARNED!!

[GardoneVT]

Seriously, outside of this forum, how many pistols are likely to see 10,000 rounds in its lifetime? How likely is the person who is looking to buy a low priced European military gun like this to put 10,000 rounds though their gun?



Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Sarsilmaz product makes it through a 2K challenge.

That still leaves us with the monumental logistics problem. Buy a police trade in Sig, Beretta, HK ,Glock etc. and you'll get a professional human being when you contact those companies for factory assistance.With Sarsilmaz or any other EAA import, you own a grey market import with zero US support. When I owned my Tanfoglio, here's what EAA kittened up:

Order for two speed safeties. One fit, the other did not and was so out of spec Stevie Wonder could tell it wasn't sized right. Two hours of remedial work on my part fixed that.It was a better option then *gulp* returning it and hoping they'd get it right the second time.

Order for two upgraded hammers. One arrived at my door.

EAAs website spontaneously "forgot" my login and account.

EAA directed me to a nonexistent vendor during a phone conversation for grip options.

Out of four contacts for basic stuff, they've totaled every single interaction. If I needed a replacement part out of necessity versus just upgrades-or if warranty work was needed- I'd be royally boned. As is the OP if his Sarsilmaz goes down.

That's why I now use the OTHER gun company in Gardone Val Trompia, Italy (By way of Ackokeek,MD) .

[Flight Medic]

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the Sarsilmaz product makes it through a 2K challenge.

That still leaves us with the monumental logistics problem. Buy a police trade in Sig, Beretta, HK ,Glock etc. and you'll get a professional human being when you contact those companies for factory assistance.With Sarsilmaz or any other EAA import, you own a grey market import with zero US support.

<SNIP>




That IS disheartening. I must admit, I'm not so enthusiastic about my shiny new toy now.

Oh well, it was never meant as a carry weapon...just something I purchased on a whim because it was inexpensive. I will continue to shoot it until it can no longer shoot...and then turn it into an art project or something.

[Flight Medic]

Hugh, please check your PMs.


Replied. Thanks

[Mudmarine]

Its been a while. Can you update us on your Turk pistol?





That IS disheartening. I must admit, I'm not so enthusiastic about my shiny new toy now.

Oh well, it was never meant as a carry weapon...just something I purchased on a whim because it was inexpensive. I will continue to shoot it until it can no longer shoot...and then turn it into an art project or something.