12GA slug vs armor?

[ASH556]

So I have a nice supply of Federal Truball Deep Penetrator (PB127 DPRS) slugs. I'm thinking about my HD shotgun setup and was wondering if these slugs will defeat armor. For a home invasion scenario I like the shotgun over the AR for it's single round incapacitation capabilities. However, I do wonder about bad guys wearing armor. Would one of these slugs defeat it? What about strategically loading the gun with the Fed LE1321B #1 buck in the chamber and the slug behind it. Then alternating throughout the tube after that. That way, if you do encounter an armored threat, you simply double-tap him and the second round (slug) is definitely effective.

[Peally]

I've never heard anyone advocate loading different shells in a single magazine load. I've never heard of a home invasion involving body armor either but that doesn't mean it's never happened. Considering the advantages of the AR and the crazy amount of ammo out for them I'd personally go that route, but that doesn't help you too much so I'll shut up now ;)

[DocGKR]

Most slugs will not defeat most soft armor.

[JodyH]

I'd rather shoot them in the face or crotch with #00.
I haven't seen a home invader yet with anything more than a vest on, and that's usually drug cartel hit squads.
A slug will probably temporarily take the fight out of them and break some ribs but it's not going to penetrate.

[ASH556]

Most slugs will not defeat most soft armor.

Well that answers that. Thanks guys. Jody, that was/is my plan. Guess it still is.

[Suvorov]

Most slugs will not defeat most soft armor.

That said, what are the effects of the blunt force trauma to a hit in the chest cavity?

[DocGKR]

About like getting hit with a fast pitch.

[Paul]

I shot an old kevlar Second Chance level II vest with DPRS at 10ft and the slugs did not penetrate. I also shot the same vest with regular breneke slugs and they did not penetrate either, but they cut and frayed a lot more kevlar.

A 1oz foster slug at 1300fps has 1640ft-lbs of energy.
A 5.25oz baseball and 95mph has 100ft-lbs of energy.
A 600gr load of 1 buckshot (15 pellets @ 40gr ea) at 1150fps has 1762lb-ft of energy.

At most home defense distances flite control buckshot will still be in the shot cup. That doesn't make it a substitute for a slug, but at personal distances it should put a similar thumpin on bad company.

[Jeep]

About like getting hit with a fast pitch.

That sounds like a pretty good temporary stop to me.

[Jeep]

I've never heard anyone advocate loading different shells in a single magazine load. I've never heard of a home invasion involving body armor either but that doesn't mean it's never happened. Considering the advantages of the AR and the crazy amount of ammo out for them I'd personally go that route, but that doesn't help you too much so I'll shut up now ;)

Peally: Some units in Vietnam put a shotgun guy right behind the point man for patrols in thick jungle. A typical load was buckshot in the chamber (for a first quick shot), followed by a slug or two (for more accuracy), followed by buckshot (on the theory that at that point things might be going south and you needed as many projectiles downrange as you could get). So it isn't unknown. Is it a good idea? As always, that will probably depend on the tactical situation.

[TGS]

Immediate incapacitation? Physiologically unlikely.

There is a strong chance of recieving a life threatening hemothorax, however. Lots of Russians died in Afghanistan due to hemothoraces from 7.62x54r armor hits while waiting 3 days for definitive care.

[David Armstrong]

Peally: Some units in Vietnam put a shotgun guy right behind the point man for patrols in thick jungle. A typical load was buckshot in the chamber (for a first quick shot), followed by a slug or two (for more accuracy), followed by buckshot (on the theory that at that point things might be going south and you needed as many projectiles downrange as you could get). So it isn't unknown. Is it a good idea? As always, that will probably depend on the tactical situation.
I heard of that, but as to how typical it was I'd have to question. IME the buckshot-only load was the common and accepted option. If you want accuracy with a single round you have the rifles from the other troops. The idea of the mixed mag for pretty much anything sounds good in theory but seems to fall apart on closer inspection.

[Joe Mamma]

I've never heard anyone advocate loading different shells in a single magazine load.

People have done it for a long time. But that's not saying it's a good idea. They used to call it "candy cane" loading.

Joe Mamma

[jetfire]

About like getting hit with a fast pitch.

If we're talking a fast pitch softball, that would be about 7 oz moving at 60 mph, so we'd be looking at a power factor of 269.456 for a good softball pitch. If we're talking baseball, a good fastball at 95 MPH works out to 139.33 FPS, and a baseball weighs about ~3000 grains. So a baseball's power factor from a decent fastball pitcher would be about 417.99.

For the non-shooting sports people, Power Factor is an arbitrary measure of a projectile's energy that's reached by multiplying projectile weight by velocity and then dividing by 1000 to make the number a little easier to manage. And it has nothing to do with this conversation, I just decided I'd rather do the math on what the PF of a softball vs a baseball would be instead of replying to pre-SHOT Show emails.

[Rich]

I saw a video of a guy wearing armor and being shot at close range range ( couple feet)with a 308.
He stood on one leg to prove you cant be knocked down by the force.

I got the video from a IN. Dentist who was into that sort of stuff. Doc Lawyer

[DocGKR]

That was likely Richard Davis firing an FAL at Alexander Jason who was wearing LIV Second Chance armor....

[dbateman]

I've never heard anyone advocate loading different shells in a single magazine load. I've never heard of a home invasion involving body armor either but that doesn't mean it's never happened. Considering the advantages of the AR and the crazy amount of ammo out for them I'd personally go that route, but that doesn't help you too much so I'll shut up now ;)


In regards to loading different rounds in the one mag I have heard a few people mention in over the years. I have also done it myself. But then just got lazy and went with SGs and single loading slugs if needed.

That being said there is one place I still load different rounds and thats hunting dangerous game. You typically see people load softpoints followed by solids, the idea being usually you have time to make a well aimed shot for your first shot and follow up shots may be an animal running away or charging ect.

[Wendell]

Peally: Some units in Vietnam put a shotgun guy right behind the point man for patrols in thick jungle. A typical load was buckshot in the chamber (for a first quick shot), followed by a slug or two (for more accuracy), followed by buckshot (on the theory that at that point things might be going south and you needed as many projectiles downrange as you could get). So it isn't unknown. Is it a good idea? As always, that will probably depend on the tactical situation.

Nobody seems to be talking about this (http://www.winchester.com/Products/New-Products/Pages/pdx1-12.aspx). I don't know why not.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ42rmBLf3U

[Chuck Haggard]

Nobody seems to be talking about this (http://www.winchester.com/Products/New-Products/Pages/pdx1-12.aspx). I don't know why not.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ42rmBLf3U

"Buck and Ball" has been around since at least the Revolutionary War, not sure that it ever worked out that great in real life vs theory.

[Sigfan26]

Nobody seems to be talking about this (http://www.winchester.com/Products/New-Products/Pages/pdx1-12.aspx). I don't know why not.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ42rmBLf3U

It's like the engineers at Winchester have begun saying, "Let's see how much different s@&t we can cram into a shotgun shell!". Next thing you know, 12ga rounds will have 4 copper discs, 5 buckshot pellets, and 15 birdshot pellets in them... Can you say, "Game Chaynjuh"!!!

[gj4740]

I have used several types of slugs, including brenneke barrier penetration slugs, against IIIA body armor backed by 1/2" plywood. They tend to suck a portion of the vest through the plywood when shot within ten yards. None of the slugs penetrated the vest. I don't know if the trauma could kill but I certainly wouldn't count on it to end the fight without follow up shots to other vital areas.

[BLR]

I have used several types of slugs, including brenneke barrier penetration slugs, against IIIA body armor backed by 1/2" plywood. They tend to suck a portion of the vest through the plywood when shot within ten yards. None of the slugs penetrated the vest. I don't know if the trauma could kill but I certainly wouldn't count on it to end the fight without follow up shots to other vital areas.

plywood is hurting your simulation. You need something more elastic.

[gj4740]

I would think something elastic wouldn't show much of anything. Perhaps a large clay block since it should leave a permanent deformation. Either way the point was to demonstrate the lack of penetration through the vest rather than insisting that it would cause a serious injury.

[BLR]

I would think something elastic wouldn't show much of anything. Perhaps a large clay block since it should leave a permanent deformation. Either way the point was to demonstrate the lack of penetration through the vest rather than insisting that it would cause a serious injury.

Elastic, like flesh?

[SJC3081]

http://ddupleks.com/index.php/en/1270-cal/monolit-28.html
I wonder how these steel slugs might do against soft body armor.

[Beat Trash]

I'd rather shoot them in the face or crotch with #00.
I haven't seen a home invader yet with anything more than a vest on, and that's usually drug cartel hit squads.
A slug will probably temporarily take the fight out of them and break some ribs but it's not going to penetrate.

I think that Jody is on the right track. I also think some may be over thinking the situation by looking for slugs to be used against body armor.

In my city, we are starting to see more suspects with soft body armor. Still rare though, and usually it is only recovered off of major players who are much more concerned about being shot at by competing "thugs".

What we are not seeing is home invasions, of victims who are NOT into the illegal drug trade, by suspects wearing level IIIA body armor. Suspects hitting someone else stash house, maybe. But "Joe Q Citizen's" house? Nope.

I would strongly suggest that if you face an opponent who is wearing soft body armor, you will most likely not notice the armor, as you will be more focused on the gun they have instead. Your first indication of an adversary wearing armor would be when the rounds to the upper chest are not taking effect. I would then suggest you go to some type of "failure drill", such as walking rounds from the upper center chest area to the throat, neck and head. At my agency, we refer to this in training as, "Unzipping".

The time frame for you to notice the rounds not taking effect during a critical incident and transition to some type of failure drill is short. Very short.

I would offer that the indicators you would receive letting you know that your rounds are not having the desired effect, due to the suspect wearing soft body armor, would be striking similar to engaging suspects who are:

Mentally ill and psychotic
Have a lot of illegal drugs in their system
Are heavily intoxicated
Have a lot of adrenaline in their system
Are really, really motivated and determined to kill you

I would suggest the response be the same for all of the above.

If a load of OO buck to the upper chest fails, a load or two to the face usually gets their undivided attention.

[DocGKR]

Well said.

[breakingtime91]

I think that Jody is on the right track. I also think some may be over thinking the situation by looking for slugs to be used against body armor.

In my city, we are starting to see more suspects with soft body armor. Still rare though, and usually it is only recovered off of major players who are much more concerned about being shot at by competing "thugs".

What we are not seeing is home invasions, of victims who are NOT into the illegal drug trade, by suspects wearing level IIIA body armor. Suspects hitting someone else stash house, maybe. But "Joe Q Citizen's" house? Nope.

I would strongly suggest that if you face an opponent who is wearing soft body armor, you will most likely not notice the armor, as you will be more focused on the gun they have instead. Your first indication of an adversary wearing armor would be when the rounds to the upper chest are not taking effect. I would then suggest you go to some type of "failure drill", such as walking rounds from the upper center chest area to the throat, neck and head. At my agency, we refer to this in training as, "Unzipping".

The time frame for you to notice the rounds not taking effect during a critical incident and transition to some type of failure drill is short. Very short.

I would offer that the indicators you would receive letting you know that your rounds are not having the desired effect, due to the suspect wearing soft body armor, would be striking similar to engaging suspects who are:

Mentally ill and psychotic
Have a lot of illegal drugs in their system
Are heavily intoxicated
Have a lot of adrenaline in their system
Are really, really motivated and determined to kill you

I would suggest the response be the same for all of the above.

If a load of OO buck to the upper chest fails, a load or two to the face usually gets their undivided attention.

nice. I like your mindset.

[Sigfan26]

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/max-barrier-pen.html
This is about the best I could find (the PDF gives testing they've done)... But, I wouldn't even consider it for general use. Super specialized (punches through 2a Kevlar and then 37.5" of gel).

[JDM]

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/max-barrier-pen.html
This is about the best I could find (the PDF gives testing they've done)... But, I wouldn't even consider it for general use. Super specialized (punches through 2a Kevlar and then 37.5" of gel).

I've shot quite a few of these.

They are...potent.

[Sigfan26]

I've shot quite a few of these.

They are...potent.

I got a couple boxes... But, at $4-$5 a round, I won't be shooting many!