Importance of simple gun internals

[iakdrago]

This has been a thought that has been bothering me for some time. My M&P is full of little springs--some are smaller than a rice grain. It's put together with roll pins that are a PITA to punch out, which is not a big deal, but the one that i'm thinking of in particular holds the extractor claw in place. The block on the other hand can be completely taken apart with basically a ball point pen.

Now, i've never had an issue with the reliability of the m&p. Nevertheless it definitely harder to work on, and has more things that can go wrong. On the flip side, the simple Yugo is less reliable than a BMW 6 series.

How important is the simplicity of the internals in the number of parts (and their size) as well the ability to easily swap/replace them is to you?

[Jeep]

This has been a thought that has been bothering me for some time. My M&P is full of little springs--some are smaller than a rice grain. It's put together with roll pins that are a PITA to punch out, which is not a big deal, but the one that i'm thinking of in particular holds the extractor claw in place. The block on the other hand can be completely taken apart with basically a ball point pen.

Now, i've never had an issue with the reliability of the m&p. Nevertheless it definitely harder to work on, and has more things that can go wrong. On the flip side, the simple Yugo is less reliable than a BMW 6 series.


How important is the simplicity of the internals in the number of parts (and their size) as well the ability to easily swap/replace them is to you?

Some very nice and reliable guns are complex. Others are simple. Overall, I like simple because I can work on them easier, and there are less parts that can break. But a well made and reliable gun is well made and reliable even if it is complex.

[Chuck Haggard]

The springs aren't that small. And the M&P is a big improvement from most, if not all, traditional pistols, especially the DA/SA designs.

[ToddG]

The theory that more parts = fail, or smaller parts = fail, is faulty logic. The reliability and longevity of parts needs to be assessed based on the parts themselves.

The Yugo/BMW example is a very good one. Fewer parts and simpler design doesn't automatically equate to better ... anything. Quality of parts and design is what matters far more.

Now as others have said, simplicity can make armorer duty easy. And if I lived somehwere that no spare guns/parts would be available any time soon, having a small collection of critical parts would be a lot easier and cheaper than needing a larger collection of critical parts.

IOW, God bless 'Merica!

[farscott]

The theory that more parts = fail, or smaller parts = fail, is faulty logic. The reliability and longevity of parts needs to be assessed based on the parts themselves.

The Yugo/BMW example is a very good one. Fewer parts and simpler design doesn't automatically equate to better ... anything. Quality of parts and design is what matters far more.

Now as others have said, simplicity can make armorer duty easy. And if I lived somehwere that no spare guns/parts would be available any time soon, having a small collection of critical parts would be a lot easier and cheaper than needing a larger collection of critical parts.

IOW, God bless 'Merica!

Sorta. The reliability of the parts has more to do with the overall system than the parts themselves. When I was with one of the Big 3, a design was done with all "best in class" parts. The resulting vehicle, however, was much closer to "worst in class" than "best in class". In other words, do not evaluate parts in a vacuum.

[JHC]

All else being equal or equal enough, simplicity wins for me.

[LSP552]

Simple is a factor, but not everything. I want my social pistols to be user serviceable and without hand-fitted parts. P series SIGs for example require more effort than a Glock to detail strip, but good design offsets the "disadvantage" of more parts. Design and quality play large roles for me. Slightly more effort to detail strip wouldn't keep me from selecting a platform with other advantages or features I desired.

At some point, the aggravation factor of a complicated design could override any other advantage for a cary pistol. That's what I tell myself every time I see one of LSP972's HKs…...

[5pins]

Fewer parts don’t equate to better. Just look at the Hi-Point and their like. I would rather have a pistol with more parts that has been properly designed, assembled, tested, and manufactured then one with fewer parts that has not.

[Alpha Sierra]

How important is the simplicity of the internals in the number of parts (and their size) as well the ability to easily swap/replace them is to you?

Not important at all.

[45dotACP]

The value to me, is in availability of parts...I can work on most of my guns because the parts are available. My Caspian is far from simple, but it's durable and is easier for me to repair than a gun for which I cannot source parts...

[psalms144.1]

All the important points have been hit, but I will tell you that as a factory certified armorer for both the P-series Sigs and the GLOCK, I would MUCH rather be in an agency that issues GLOCKS, just from a workload perspective.

That may sound like laziness speaking, and, if it does, you're ears are working fine. From the ARMORER perspective, at least, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. As a point of interest, I've been armorer certified for the Sig for about the same time as the Glock. In that time, I've had precisely NO other Glock shooters come to me for armorer assistance outside of drifting or installing sights. I've lost count of the number of Sigs I've worked on, for everything from grip screw replacement to full tear down for rebuild.

I've also probably related the story of when I jacked up my (then) issued G19 while OCONUS on a mission by bending the slide release lever spring beyond repair. I had all the parts needed to service our Glocks in a small ziplock baggie in my go-bag - but no armorers tool (duh). Went to the lunchroom of the Embassy we were visiting, liberated a cheap fork, bent one tine to 90 degrees and got the part swapped in about three minutes, total. I could just as easily taken care of ANY broken part in the Glock (less the slide and frame, obviously).

For the average citizen firearms owner, I don't think this is worth the time to worry about, frankly, but there ARE times when simpler is better, in my experience.

Regards,

Kevin

[LSP972]

At some point, the aggravation factor of a complicated design could override any other advantage for a cary pistol. That's what I tell myself every time I see one of LSP972's HKs…...

It certainly is a factor. And that (the fact that HKs are indeed more involved than Glocks or Sigs; although not by much in terms of classic Sigs), along with the fact that no .22 kits, affordable or otherwise, exist for the P-series and HK45 series, are the only drawbacks I find with HKs. And as you know, I've gotten out of the Sig business, but have kept the Glocks in live storage. And like you, I would choose a Glock 17 or 19 for a "walk the earth" pistol… because one would be far more likely to find magazines and pieces/parts for a Glock than anything else.

But until The Revolution, zombie apocalypse, whatever iteration of dark days may befall us, I'll be using the superb HK45C and big bullets as long as I'm able. I do, however, have plenty of little bullets and suitable high capacity launchers to hand…;)

.

[JHC]

All the important points have been hit, but I will tell you that as a factory certified armorer for both the P-series Sigs and the GLOCK, I would MUCH rather be in an agency that issues GLOCKS, just from a workload perspective.

That may sound like laziness speaking, and, if it does, you're ears are working fine. From the ARMORER perspective, at least, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. As a point of interest, I've been armorer certified for the Sig for about the same time as the Glock. In that time, I've had precisely NO other Glock shooters come to me for armorer assistance outside of drifting or installing sights. I've lost count of the number of Sigs I've worked on, for everything from grip screw replacement to full tear down for rebuild.

I've also probably related the story of when I jacked up my (then) issued G19 while OCONUS on a mission by bending the slide release lever spring beyond repair. I had all the parts needed to service our Glocks in a small ziplock baggie in my go-bag - but no armorers tool (duh). Went to the lunchroom of the Embassy we were visiting, liberated a cheap fork, bent one tine to 90 degrees and got the part swapped in about three minutes, total. I could just as easily taken care of ANY broken part in the Glock (less the slide and frame, obviously).

For the average citizen firearms owner, I don't think this is worth the time to worry about, frankly, but there ARE times when simpler is better, in my experience.

Regards,

Kevin

And the fork ain't your primary until it's your primary. It takes a lot of capability advantage to make up simplicity on my scorecard.

[David Armstrong]

All things being equal, although they never are, I'll go for the simplicity. After S&W armorer school, working on 1911s and HKs, etc, one of the selling points to me for Glock was simplicity.

[GardoneVT]

All things being equal, although they never are, I'll go for the simplicity. After S&W armorer school, working on 1911s and HKs, etc, one of the selling points to me for Glock was simplicity.

Yet, simplicity is no guarantee of reliability.

Ergo, a series of relatively complicated Beretta 92 pistols shooting 15,000 rounds collectively with zero failures.

[David Armstrong]

Right, which is why I said "all thing being equal." Given similar reliability and such, I'll take the simpler version over the more complicated version pretty much every time.

[psalms144.1]

Yet, simplicity is no guarantee of reliability.

Ergo, a series of relatively complicated Beretta 92 pistols shooting 15,000 rounds collectively with zero failures.And a statistically unimportant data point. I was assigned to a team where we had M9s that, in the course of 8 months, we dead-lined over 90% of them for a variety of part breakages. Also statistically insignificant (under a dozen guns), but there was nothing we could do in the field to address broken safety levers and the cracked slide we had. Of course, we also fired close to 1,500 rounds a MONTH through those guns, and took them to some fairly hard-use training/operational environments, so they definitely got rode hard and put up wet.

I've had 1911s with ponies on the grips that wouldn't feed FMJ for love or money, and Glocks that beaned me in the grape (HARD) with nearly every piece of brass. Complicated or not, didn't matter, a lemon is a lemon. To Mr. Armstrong's point "all things being equal..." Given the option to deploy with my (previously) issued (2005-vintage 3rd Generation) G19 or any of the M9s I was issued over the years, I'd take the G19, even though I suck, and GLOCK hates me...

Regards,

Kevin

[GardoneVT]

And a statistically unimportant data point. I was assigned to a team where we had M9s that, in the course of 8 months, we dead-lined over 90% of them for a variety of part breakages. Also statistically insignificant (under a dozen guns), but there was nothing we could do in the field to address broken safety levers and the cracked slide we had. Of course, we also fired close to 1,500 rounds a MONTH through those guns, and took them to some fairly hard-use training/operational environments, so they definitely got rode hard and put up wet.

I've had 1911s with ponies on the grips that wouldn't feed FMJ for love or money, and Glocks that beaned me in the grape (HARD) with nearly every piece of brass. Complicated or not, didn't matter, a lemon is a lemon. To Mr. Armstrong's point "all things being equal..." Given the option to deploy with my (previously) issued (2005-vintage 3rd Generation) G19 or any of the M9s I was issued over the years, I'd take the G19, even though I suck, and GLOCK hates me...

Regards,

Kevin

To be fair, .mil Berettas are =/= to civilian Berettas. The militarys maintenance practices are so atrocious its a miracle any M9s work at all. The ones used in the Langdon class weren't military issue far as I know-a critical point when evaluating reliability.

As to whether we can draw any conclusions on this thread,I'd have to plead "No Contest". There are guns which are complex and work great, and firearms which are simple that are total dogs. Theres just no data to conclusively prove an answer-just a series of scattered anecdotes on both sides.

Worse, end user treatment complicates the issue immensely. Is it better to have a complex gun in the hands of an educated user who maintains it well, thus avoiding problems-or is it better to have a simple one in the hands of a user who abuses their gear and thus may fail more often? There isnt enough true data to conclude either way.

[ToddG]

A thought about the # of parts/simplicity argument: the extended slide stop lever on a Glock is the exact same number of parts as the standard one. Yet, it causes many people to have operational issues with the gun. Same can be said for the extended mag release. Number of parts isn't the issue.

Except from an armorer standpoint, I think the whole thing is more psychological than real. A rock has a lot fewer parts than a gun. It doesn't make the rock superior as a weapon.

[psalms144.1]

Except from an armorer standpoint, I think the whole thing is more psychological than real. A rock has a lot fewer parts than a gun. It doesn't make the rock superior as a weapon.Says the guy who just switched to 1911s with desperation... ;)

Just kidding, I think for 99.9% of applications, it's nothing to worry about at all...

Regards,

Kevin

[5pins]

Even from an armorer’s standpoint, more complex pistols with lots of parts still have certain parts that break at a higher rate than others. Take the P2000 for instance. Most people consider it a complex design with lots of small parts, yet the trigger spring, flat spring, and the trigger bar detent spring easily make up 90% of the broken parts.

[1canvas]

for me simplicity is king and thats why I went to Glocks. I just sold a Sig 229 a while ago after stripping it for just that reason. it was a beautiful gun but also the trigger reach was just too long on the first shot. I sold it and bought a 10mm G20 for a woods gun. I can do everything to my Glock quickly and cheaply. so for me simplicity is a number one requirement.

[TiroFijo]

Even though "not all things are equal" yadda, yadda... if possible I prefer simplicity and find it amusing that newer design such as the HK VP9 have DOUBLE the number of parts of a G17 Gen3, and much more parts than most earlier designs. Is such complexity really needed?

[Dagga Boy]

Even though "not all things are equal" yadda, yadda... if possible I prefer simplicity and find it amusing that newer design such as the HK VP9 have DOUBLE the number of parts of a G17 Gen3, and much more parts than most earlier designs. Is such complexity really needed?

Read something interesting lately about one of those "engineering guys" who didn't get it named John Browning. He would often use three times the number of parts as needed to perform a specific function. The reason for these was by dividing the labor so to speak, those parts would last far longer and have far less wear and stress put on them. Simple guns are great for people like me who suck as armorers and like to be home parts installers. I don't know if less automatically makes a gun better or more. I think the big issue is overall longevity and performance. I think if we look at Todd's complicated P30, that was a good indicator of more, but seemed to fall into "it sure lasts a long time". There are other systems that have weak links that are hard to get to. THis to me is the biggest issue.

I also look at where I am. If I can get to a bench and have proper tools, most of this is irrelevent. If I was trying to support a pistol in a third world crap hole, without a doubt my Gen 2 9mm Glock and a baggie of parts and a punch would be my first choice. With my lifelong rules about not sleeping in dirt and three stars being my idea of "roughing it", I am probably okay with my HK's and my HK factory tool bag with its metric punches.........;)

[TiroFijo]

I have a preference for guns that are easy to disassemble and mantain, with as fewer tools as possible, with fewer/stronger/larger parts as possible, even if total disassembly is seldom needed.

Got enough time working on my own guns, some needing a very clean and orderly bench, lots of light, slave pins, a good set of tools, and soft ambient music to sooth the spirit and keep the cursing rate slow... :)

[JonnyVain]

Sorta. The reliability of the parts has more to do with the overall system than the parts themselves. When I was with one of the Big 3, a design was done with all "best in class" parts. The resulting vehicle, however, was much closer to "worst in class" than "best in class". In other words, do not evaluate parts in a vacuum.

Actually its both. You test each part individually, then in a subsystem, then full system. It can be either the part or the system that is the issue. The main issues in the full system are compounding tolerances. So more parts means higher compounding tolerances.

Quality design and manufacturing are most important. I personally like fewer parts which is one reason I picked Glock.

[ToddG]

I like fewer parts when I am detail stripping the gun.

The other 99.999999999% of the time, I really just care if the gun works well. I've yet to see any evidence that guns with more parts are less reliable or less durable. The steering mechanism in your car probably has far more parts than your pistol. How many times has your steering system failed?

[orionz06]

Hi Points are comprised of few parts relative to other guns.

[Drang]

"Those wheellocks will never catch on, too many parts compared to a good old matchlock!"

[Maple Syrup Actual]

It's not a deal-breaker if a gun is complicated, but here is why I prefer simple guns:

If something goes really wrong with my car, I take it to a friend who is a master mechanic. He has no trouble at all diagnosing issues with a 7-speed automatic transmission, pulling it, fixing it, and popping it back in. I actually used to work in a transmission shop, but if it's more complicated than a TH350 I don't want to touch it. Or even think about it.

If something goes wrong with my gun, I'm fixing it myself. So the simpler it is, the easier it is for me to understand the problem and fix it.

So I don't think low parts count necessarily correlates well with reliability. But two reliable guns, one of which I can see in my mind's eye, working, all of the parts doing their thing, and one of which is a mess of springs, levers, and transfers bars?

Yeah, I'll take the one I can intuitively grasp well enough to understand the effects of altering the geometry of any given part, and run a 3D model in my head. I'm a writer, not an engineer. I wasn't a great mechanic.

I like Glocks and 1911s. I understand what they do. That suits me fine.

[Dagga Boy]

I like fewer parts when I am detail stripping the gun.

The other 99.999999999% of the time, I really just care if the gun works well. I've yet to see any evidence that guns with more parts are less reliable or less durable. The steering mechanism in your car probably has far more parts than your pistol. How many times has your steering system failed?

LIKE button...:)

[JHC]

Bad analogy. ;) The R&D, engineering and safety regulations that go into launching a new cars steering system probably dwarf the engineering budget of the top 5 pistol manufacturers.

But whatever. So long as a gun is working great and you have no reason or desire to tear it down; golden.

[GJM]

Parts count is most useful for trying to dominate the interwebZ, following a variation of "I like my gun because it has so few parts," or "your gun sucks because it has too many parts."

Way off topic, but would anyone guess that when Nyeti and I went cruising gun shops last week, he spent more time in the train shop than all the gun shops combined. Fortunately no multiple form was necessary for buying three locomotives.

[5pins]

Parts count is most useful for trying to dominate the interwebZ, following a variation of "I like my gun because it has so few parts," or "your gun sucks because it has too many parts."

Way off topic, but would anyone guess that when Nyeti and I went cruising gun shops last week, he spent more time in the train shop than all the gun shops combined. Fortunately no multiple form was necessary for buying three locomotives.

Dude, I can’t believe you outed him like that.

[Suvorov]

While the BMW vs Yugo comparison I apt, I have seen countless Yugos maintained with nothing more than wire and rakia. And what those gypsies can do to them is bind blowing....

However in the 1st world, I'd much rather have a BMW.


Dude, I can’t believe you outed him like that.

I knew there was something likable about him! I'll admit it is my only interest that either is not tied to my livelyhood or doesn't have armies of statists trying to take from me. As such, it brings me a large degree of relaxation.

[Dagga Boy]

Dude, I can’t believe you outed him like that.

I was there two weeks earlier and already cleaned the gun shops out of the good stuff........:cool:. Those three locomotives were a STEAL and worth 5 times what I paid, so I was really happy.

[Tamara]

I'll admit it is my only interest that either is not tied to my livelyhood or doesn't have armies of statists trying to take from me. As such, it brings me a large degree of relaxation.

I wondered why I was enjoying this camera bug that bit me so much, and you just hit the nail on the head. Thank you. :)

[GJM]

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsgut52ifj.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsgut52ifj.jpg.html)

[Tamara]

Once again I find myself pining for a "Like" button. :)

[Dagga Boy]

Once again I find myself pining for a "Like" button. :)

Because my favorite person on the internet gets it........:cool:

Lionel made HO trains are pretty rare..........three running matched Texas Lines locomotives in the box for $30.00, SCORE!!!!

Oh yea, I am carrying a high parts count HK VP9 with an X300 IWB under my shirt.........just so we don't get too far off track.:rolleyes:

[LSP972]

.. it is my only interest that either is not tied to my livelyhood or doesn't have armies of statists trying to take from me.

My radio control model airplanes and helicopters used to be that for me. Now, any tard with the money can get a "drone" (electric quad-copter) and fly it into a crowd or next to a landing commercial airplane full of people. The national association is doing a good job of keeping a leash on the FCC (who controls our radio frequencies) and the FAA, but its only a matter of time before the next near-disaster by some mouth-breather occurs, and the cries for banning will arise yet again.

.

[LSP972]

Lionel made HO trains are pretty rare.........

Yeah, they mainly did O scale, right?

Loves me some HO scale; I was huge into the RoCo MiniTanks as a youngster. Had several HO race tracks too, that covered the ping pong table.

.

[ToddG]

We have a big ole section called "Romper Room" for discussion of things that aren't related to guns. Thank you.

[SLG]

We have a big ole section called "Romper Room" for discussion of things that aren't related to guns. Thank you.

Plenty of trains have been robbed by people with guns...:-)

[ToddG]

Plenty of trains have been robbed by people with guns...:-)

Only someone your height would think of robbing a HO-scale train. :cool:

[Chuck Haggard]

While detailing out a 6906 before sending it off to George I was reminded again how much I like Glocks for a program pistol over the 3rd gen S&Ws.

On a personal level I never had issues with taking care of my 3rd gen S&Ws, but take 350 of them apart once or more a year and it starts to suck. Then, there is the issue with some guns of parts that have to be hand fitted,......... or you can't use that part again-you gotta throw it away and use a new one............

[LSP972]

While detailing out a 6906 before sending it off to George I was reminded again how much I like Glocks for a program pistol over the 3rd gen S&Ws.

........

Which is why I dreaded having to work on one. I am firmly convinced that, if S&W designed a fork, it would have three moving parts.

We had in excess of 300 sundry 5096s, 5904s, and a few 659s and 59s on the street at one point. Giving credit where it is due, I rarely had to go deep into one; they are actually a pretty solid pistol, all things considered. But when I did, I was not a happy camper.

.

[Tamara]

3rd Gen Smiths are fine pistols for other people to work on. ;)

[Chuck Haggard]

3rd Gen Smiths are fine pistols for other people to work on. ;)

I actually find them easier to detail than many of their competitors, the Beretta being an example.

[GJM]

While detailing out a 6906 before sending it off to George I was reminded again how much I like Glocks for a program pistol over the 3rd gen S&Ws.

On a personal level I never had issues with taking care of my 3rd gen S&Ws, but take 350 of them apart once or more a year and it starts to suck. Then, there is the issue with some guns of parts that have to be hand fitted,......... or you can't use that part again-you gotta throw it away and use a new one............

Hey that pistol came with a no Haggard, I mean no hassle lifetime guarantee?

[Tamara]

I actually find them easier to detail than many of their competitors, the Beretta being an example.

I'll be honest, most TDA guns fall into the "No User Serviceable Parts Inside" category for me. With handguns, my level of detail-stripping interest runs about as far as Glocks, 1911s, and Smith revolvers. DA autos are why gunsmiths exist.

3069

[98z28]

I like fewer parts when I am detail stripping the gun.

The other 99.999999999% of the time, I really just care if the gun works well. I've yet to see any evidence that guns with more parts are less reliable or less durable...

While I don't think fewer parts = more reliable, there is something wonderful that happens when you have a relatively simple design that is robust and popular: you get multiple sources of spare parts (which are probably inexpensive) and you can can probably replace those parts yourself when something goes wrong.

Glocks, M&Ps, and P-series Sigs are great examples. All three are relatively simple designs for what they are, but they have also been popular with serious end users for a while. Anyone mechanically inclined can watch an armorer's video, detail strip the slide and frame, and clean or replace any parts needed. And because they've been popular for a while, you can probably get the parts you need.

I had a chance to play with a couple of Sig P320s recently. I managed to knock one of the P320s off of the bench and into a pile of beach-like sand we have all over south Mississippi. The action was open and sand/dirt got into everything: the striker channel, the extractor channel, and the fire control unit. The gun was locked up hard. The slide wouldn't go into battery and the trigger wouldn't move. I got it home and attempted to detail strip the gun. The slide was no problem. I got it apart and blew everything out with compressed air. The fire control unit was not so fine. There are a crap ton of pins and tiny, tiny springs in there. I took it apart until I encountered a coiled roll pin that looked like it might be a one-time use pin. I called Sig to find out if it was a one-time use pin and see if I could order some spares. I also needed another recoil spring assembly because I couldn't get all of the sand out. No dice.

I cleaned the FCU out with compressed air, but the trigger still had a lot of grit in the action. There was still sand in tiny crevasses that wouldn't come out unless the FCU was completely apart. I futzed with it for a coupe of days to see if I could get it apart without damaging or losing any of the tiny pins and springs. I ended up sending it back to Sig to let them unkitten it. If it were a Glock, M&P, or P-Series Sig, I could have fixed the problem myself. But since it was a relatively complex design without a source of spare parts, I was unwilling to try and fix it myself.

I would argue that a simple design with a robust parts pipeline is a huge advantage. One I am willing to compromise a few things to have. Of course, I also got rid of an Infiniti G37 and bought a Honda Civic for the same reasons, so I might be a bit extreme on this issue.

[Chuck Haggard]

^That^ is why I got all kinds of hinky about the FNS when I was attending the armorer school.

The striker alone has eleventy-seven parts. The fire control module is supposed to be sent back to the factory where they have a special widget operated by four trained Swiss watch makers and a cyborg orangutan working as a team to get it back together.

[LSP972]

I actually find them easier to detail than many of their competitors, the Beretta being an example.

No kidding. Every time I clean grandson #2's M9 commercial, I marvel at all the nooks and crannies that pistol has.

.

[LSP972]

I'll be honest, most TDA guns fall into the "No User Serviceable Parts Inside" category for me. With handguns, my level of detail-stripping interest runs about as far as Glocks, 1911s, and Smith revolvers. DA autos are why gunsmiths exist.



The Sig classic P-series are actually pretty simple, once you figure out exactly how to hold your mouth while getting the trigger bar in or out... ;)

.

[LSP552]

I'll be honest, most TDA guns fall into the "No User Serviceable Parts Inside" category for me. With handguns, my level of detail-stripping interest runs about as far as Glocks, 1911s, and Smith revolvers. DA autos are why gunsmiths exist.

I would include the SIG P series in the user friendly category, but that's my limit for fun.

[LSP552]

The Sig classic P-series are actually pretty simple, once you figure out exactly how to hold your mouth while getting the trigger bar in or out... ;)

.

Or which direction the FPPP goes in from……...

[LSP972]

I cleaned the FCU out with compressed air, but the trigger still had a lot of grit in the action. There was still sand in tiny crevasses that wouldn't come out unless the FCU was completely apart. .

Did you try a shot (or multiples thereof) of brake cleaner? FWIW, the NON-chlorinated variety is usually okay to use around plastic or polymer; I use it to blow out HK frames when I'm too lazy to do a detail-strip.

.

[Jeep]

Or which direction the FPPP goes in from……...

I think anyone with 3 hands will have no problem with a Sig. Some of the other makes require a 4th or 5th hand.

[RevolverRob]

This thread reminds me of why I like 1911s and carbureted V8s linked to manual transmissions. Sure, you could build more complicated things that work just as well. Some may even be more efficient, but you can fix the simple things with damn near any tool and any part. The fact that "Filipino Slag" 1911s, built in huts that aren't fit to serve as a condemned building in the US, run as well as they do is a testament to the simple engineering of the design.

-Rob

[JTQ]

I'll be honest, most TDA guns fall into the "No User Serviceable Parts Inside" category for me. With handguns, my level of detail-stripping interest runs about as far as Glocks, 1911s, and Smith revolvers. DA autos are why gunsmiths exist.

I agree.

I'm always intrigued by the great importance some 1911 folks put on detail stripping their guns. One quote I recall from my early days on 1911 forums was, "do we detail strip our 1911's because we need to, or because we can?" I often wonder how many S&W 4506's and Ruger P90's have been detail stripped by their owners and if they ever stopped working because they were never detail stripped.

[45dotACP]

Well...now that I think of it, detail stripping probably isn't such a big deal. Because I was stupid, however, learning how to detail strip, function test, and perform most armorer related functions on a 1911 was imperative to me.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have seen 3rd gen S&Ws, and other firearms, lock up from hard use or weather/conditions when the gun has not been detailed out.

Our bike guys were really hard on their guns, due to sweat, rain, etc. Just one example.

[RevolverRob]

I have seen 3rd gen S&Ws, and other firearms, lock up from hard use or weather/conditions when the gun has not been detailed out.

Our bike guys were really hard on their guns, due to sweat, rain, etc. Just one example.

Chuck was it your or Doc that mentioned having a Glock take a swim in the river/marsh and then needing to strip it down and blow it out again? I recall whoever it was remarking on the nicety of the Glock's simplicity, because it made that particular task very easy.

I have worked in the past in the desert and gotten guns filled with sand, it isn't that difficult to do actually. I used to carry a 1911 for that reason. My old mentor always carries a 1911 for that reason too. This is all reminding me that I am gearing up for work in arid montane regions potentially starting this summer and definitely starting next year and continuing for 3+ years and I no longer have a 1911 handy...

-Rob

[Tamara]

I have seen 3rd gen S&Ws, and other firearms, lock up from hard use or weather/conditions when the gun has not been detailed out.

Our bike guys were really hard on their guns, due to sweat, rain, etc. Just one example.

Stop me if you've heard this one:

When Shootin' Buddy was doing an intern-type gig at IMPD's planning office, he'd sneak off to the armory every chance he got because what gun nut wouldn't?

So he's down there while the armorer is trying to clean out a Model... 66? I think they carried back then? Anyway the gun is crusted with this dried reddish brown substance that's even gotten up inside the works and was preventing the cylinder from opening.

Dried blood? No, no! It was a mo'cycle cop's gat, and he would get lunch from the hot dog vendor every day and eat the dawg while still astride his trusty steed, but he'd twist to the right so the ketchup and mustard dripping from the dog wouldn't get on his uniform...

[Chuck Haggard]

Chuck was it your or Doc that mentioned having a Glock take a swim in the river/marsh and then needing to strip it down and blow it out again? I recall whoever it was remarking on the nicety of the Glock's simplicity, because it made that particular task very easy.

I have worked in the past in the desert and gotten guns filled with sand, it isn't that difficult to do actually. I used to carry a 1911 for that reason. My old mentor always carries a 1911 for that reason too. This is all reminding me that I am gearing up for work in arid montane regions potentially starting this summer and definitely starting next year and continuing for 3+ years and I no longer have a 1911 handy...

-Rob

I dumped my Glock 19 (might have been my 26, whatever...) into about 20 feet of Atlantic Ocean on a trip to Puerto Rico when I had an unfortunate kayak mishap. Detailed it out late that night at the hotel. I had a pen, towels, tap water and some WD40. Gun and ammo worked fine when I got back home.

I had a bad night in Topeka one time when the Shunganunga came over it's banks badly and we were evacuating kids and little old people via hand pushed john boat from the neighborhood I was working. My G17s was in in flood water in my holster for the entire night. I shot all of my duty ammo out of the gun and mags the next day, then detailed it out, fresh water rinse, clean and relube.

[Chuck Haggard]

Stop me if you've heard this one:

When Shootin' Buddy was doing an intern-type gig at IMPD's planning office, he'd sneak off to the armory every chance he got because what gun nut wouldn't?

So he's down there while the armorer is trying to clean out a Model... 66? I think they carried back then? Anyway the gun is crusted with this dried reddish brown substance that's even gotten up inside the works and was preventing the cylinder from opening.

Dried blood? No, no! It was a mo'cycle cop's gat, and he would get lunch from the hot dog vendor every day and eat the dawg while still astride his trusty steed, but he'd twist to the right so the ketchup and mustard dripping from the dog wouldn't get on his uniform...

In my experience few things lock up a gun harder than congealed Coke syrup from a Big Gulp being spilled on the gun and left for about 6 months.

[HCM]

In my experience few things lock up a gun harder than congealed Coke syrup from a Big Gulp being spilled on the gun and left for about 6 months.

Don't tell Bloomberg.

[RevolverRob]

Don't tell Bloomberg.

No, you do tell Bloomberg. Then wait to see if his head explodes while trying to decide if it's better to get Big Gulps unbanned to ruin guns or if its better to get guns unbanned to ruin Big Gulps...

[LSP552]

In my experience few things lock up a gun harder than congealed Coke syrup from a Big Gulp being spilled on the gun and left for about 6 months.

You can see some amazing gun stuff with a decent sample size of law enforcement users….

[Dagga Boy]

You can see some amazing gun stuff with a decent sample size of law enforcement users….

Truth!

[psalms144.1]

When my daughter was about 18 months old, she decided she could swim on her own, and proved it by flinging herself into the deep end of my buddy's pool (where he was hosting a bbq, of course). I went in right behind her, with my G26 on my hip and my work cell phone in my pocket. The Glock was stipped, blow dried, and back in business in a couple of minutes. The cell phone never did recover...

[Maple Syrup Actual]

In my experience few things lock up a gun harder than congealed Coke syrup from a Big Gulp being spilled on the gun and left for about 6 months.

On the other end of the spectrum, I recently helped a guy burn every drop of lube out of an SKS and run it on maple syrup. We got the gun smoking hot and I thought for sure the syrup would crystallize and lock up the action.

Nope, ran until we got bored. Wasted a lot of good maple syrup though. And we eventually wrecked the SKS, mainly because hate mail from bubbas is pretty entertaining stuff.

[Byron]

On the other end of the spectrum...
Please tell me there is video of this event.


Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

[GJM]

Please tell me there is video of this event.


Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

Appeals to the same demographic buying season tickets to curling contests.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Extensive video. Also when we set it on fire, and when we blew it up with binary explosives which I detonated from about a hundred metres back with an old m14 of mine.

But the maple syrup was the best part in a lot of ways.

[Trooper224]

You can see some amazing gun stuff with a decent sample size of law enforcement users….

Seen an HK P7M13 turned into the armorer because it was rusted shut.

[DocGKR]

I am a fan of simpler, more easily serviced designs--particularly for agency guns. I find the Glock and then M&P to be the most easily maintained current duty handguns--much more so than the HK's, Sigs, 3rd gen S&W's, & Beretta's I have had to previously deal with.

[Byron]

Appeals to the same demographic buying season tickets to curling contests.
Thanks for reminding me to renew my season tickets!


Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

[ToddG]

Please tell me there is video of this event.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/69/1c/c0/691cc02778849cf4e3fa19524e4e90bd.jpg

[Beat Trash]

I had a Glock 19 inside of a fanny pack strapped to the support of a rental canoe. My daughter and I collided with another canoe in some rapids and we got turned sideways and the canoe flipped. I grabbed the daughter (about 7 at the time) and got her to shore. The canoe was stuck as the full force of the current and rapids were going into the sideways canoe. After about 30 minutes, the canoe was able to be pulled out with the help of a few guys stopping to assist. ,

The entire time, an unknown amount of water washed into the canoe. Picture a firehose about 20' wide dousing the interior of your canoe.

The fanny pack was still attached, as was the gun. This alone amazed me as I fully expected to have to write off the gun as being lost.

I took the Glock home, stripped it and wiped it down and let it airdrop before reassembling. A couple of weeks later, I received a copy of the Glock armors manual from a friend and detail stripped the gun for the first time. I never went to Glock armors school. But I can read a manual, especially one with lots of pictures.

A more complicated design with more parts, and I doubt that an untrained person like myself could just detail strip a gun and put it back together without issue. This really sold me on the simplicity of the design.

And the ammunition? The gun and spare magazine was loaded with some of the first Winchester RA9T I ever obtained. I dried the ammo on a towel and let it air dry. That ammo was set aside. About 6 months later I remembered the ammo and took it to the range. Every single round fired without issue!

[Chuck Haggard]

Ranger-T is advertised by Winchester as being sealed.

[98z28]

Did you try a shot (or multiples thereof) of brake cleaner? FWIW, the NON-chlorinated variety is usually okay to use around plastic or polymer; I use it to blow out HK frames when I'm too lazy to do a detail-strip.

I did not. Even if I had managed to get it clean, I was afraid of damaging some of the small springs I'd taken out. Everything came apart easily, but I couldn't seem to get it back together without using significant force. The CS rep made it sound like I wouldn't be able to get spare parts if I tore something up. I sent the disassembled FCU back to Sig in a baggie. Proud moment, that.

Probably should have tried using brake cleaner before taking the FCU apart. Curiosity always gets me into trouble.

[JHC]

I did not. Even if I had managed to get it clean, I was afraid of damaging some of the small springs I'd taken out. Everything came apart easily, but I couldn't seem to get it back together without using significant force. The CS rep made it sound like I wouldn't be able to get spare parts if I tore something up. I sent the disassembled FCU back to Sig in a baggie. Proud moment, that.

Probably should have tried using brake cleaner before taking the FCU apart. Curiosity always gets me into trouble.

"Proud moment that" - lol awesome humor, kudos. You dared go deeper than I. BTW I deadlined my custom 1911 Sunday while trying to depress the recoil spring plug while turning a bushing wrench - when I slipped and launched the plug somewhere in the landscaping. Two more inbound from Brownells. Proud moment that.
I shouldna been outdoors and no 1911 should be built that tight to need a damn wrench. (None I own anyway )


Yours was a very interesting datapoint. I had simplistically thought the 320 of simple design.

[98z28]

I wouldn't read too much into it. It mostly demonstrates my ignorance. Maybe we can get Bruce Gray to make an armorer's video sooner rather than later.

It does bother me that the FCU is so exposed to the elements. Particularly through the trigger opening in the grip module. I'd be interested in the trigger Sig shows in their new 320 video. It seems to include some protection for this area.

http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd128/stelks98z28/Post/ScreenHunter_01Feb031205_zps8caaf5d6.jpg (http://s220.photobucket.com/user/stelks98z28/media/Post/ScreenHunter_01Feb031205_zps8caaf5d6.jpg.html)

Full video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_qStEMQPts#t=77

[Jeep]

"Proud moment that" - lol awesome humor, kudos. You dared go deeper than I. BTW I deadlined my custom 1911 Sunday while trying to depress the recoil spring plug while turning a bushing wrench - when I slipped and launched the plug somewhere in the landscaping. Two more inbound from Brownells. Proud moment that.
I shouldna been outdoors and no 1911 should be built that tight to need a damn wrench. (None I own anyway )


Yours was a very interesting datapoint. I had simplistically thought the 320 of simple design.

I managed to shoot out an overhead light the first time I fieldstripped a Kimber. As it turned out, I should have taken that as an omen and ditched the gun then.

[LSP972]

... a Kimber. As it turned out, I should have taken that as an omen and ditched the gun then.

LOL.

Gotta pay attention to them thar omens...:D

.

[JonInWA]

One of my retrospectively hilarious moments came the day after I went through the Glock Armorers course-I launched one of the springs (probably the one for the extractor depressor plunger) due to poor hand positioning on my part. there was no way I was going to go, eyes downcast to our LE Rep, who's also a personal friend...after a hour search of my workshop area, I found that it had achieved a perfect launch and re-entry trajectory, right into the garbage can at my feet....And yeah, I later told my friend-he cracked up.

On a more serious note, my thoughts are that there are merits in both simplicity and efficiency/durability of design. The genius of a Glock is that it's a combination of simple, efficient, and easily worked on by virtually anyone capable of fogging a mirror. Conversely, the genius (and attractiveness) inherent to more component/design intensive platforms is the efficiency and durability inherent to their design and materials. My Ruger P89 is overbuilt, both in overall execution and in individual components. And while it's far more difficult to detail disassemble/reassemble than my Glock, I'm not too concerned about it, due to the lack of perceived fragility of both the overall gun and its specific components.

Best, Jon

[GJM]

Probably should have tried using brake cleaner before taking the FCU apart. Curiosity always gets me into trouble.

Admit it, you wanted to take your 320 apart.

How does it shoot?

[98z28]

Admit it, you wanted to take your 320 apart.

How does it shoot?

Guilty.

I'll put some impressions in the P320 thread.