Stoppages & Malfunctions ... What?

[Erick Gelhaus]

This past Monday we were running a range for the office – last short of the quarter and the year. One portion included the following drill:

Each shooter had three magazines loaded with three rounds of frangible and one dummy round in in either the second or third spot;
The procedure to clear failures to fire and eject were verbally reviewed and demonstrated before we started.
On the start signal, draw and fire three rounds in the upper A zone on the torso. When the shooter encounters a failure to fire, induced by the dummy round, deal with the stoppage via Tap, Rack & Roll before finishing off those three rounds. As the slide will then be locked back, do a speed reload and assess before holstering. Then jog up range and back before repeating the cycle two more times.
Total: 9 rounds plus 3 failures to fire induced by dummy rounds.

There was no minimum time, although we told them it was being timed - other than that, no external stressors were added in any way, shape or form. Nothing had been done to elevate heart rates.

Note: While we issue Glock pistols, .40S&W transitioning into 9mm, we allow a number of other pistols / calibers to be carried. As a result, certain model centric techniques are not generally taught.

What we saw …

When he had his first failure to fire, a left-handed shooter transferred the pistol to his right hand and then cleared the stoppage via Tap, Rack& Roll. No, he has never been a right-handed shooter;
Several would execute a speed reload upon getting the failure to fire, ejecting a magazine with live round(s);
Racking after bypassing the tapping;
Ceasing to shoot after the stoppage clearance;
Grabbing forward on the slide and cupping the ejection port so that they end up having to throw the dummy round to the ground because they caught it.

I videoed the last three shooters to be able to show the shooters, and other instructors at the office, what was happening. I can’t share them given that the videos would ID the organization – policy prevents us from doing that. I wish I had used video all day.

Because of planned re-modeling and upgrades on our range, we lost one quarter of live fire training during the past year; though actual training involving Sims and blue guns was done during that quarter. The last time the whole organization had a block on stoppages, malfunctions was fall of 2013.

Throwing this out for discussion … thoughts?

[Chuck Haggard]

I'm not at all shocked.

In general, almost all of the studies I have seen on agency/organizational training shows that it degrades with time, and the less dedicated the person the quicker it does so.

An example would be an Army experiment that involved donning the issued pro mask (aka; gas mask) where units didn't get sustainment training for 6 months, a year, a year and a half, etc.
After a year about 85-90% of the troops could do this simple task to standard. After a year and a half the percentage dropped to just above 50%

[Wayne Dobbs]

I feel your pain. I did an "undercover" skills test on my old agency (~160 sworn) years ago and through the use of about five dry fire events proved that our competence level in terms of percentage of success was way under 40%. When that was written up (pre-email days) and sent up the line, it started an absolute shitstorm. It did get us a baby steps training program that was later killed (after my retirement).

Chuck is right and his position about how recent your training is being most important. I think it's more valuable in real world terms to have training in small "bites" on a very frequent basis than it is to have a large "show" once or twice a year. I'd even proposed that there be three mandatory 15 minute dry practice session per WEEK over pistol manipulations, handcuffing and DT skills but you know how that fared. I still believe that if we simply did a well structured, recurring and variable skills maintenance program in those small bites, it would pay huge dividends in field performances.

[DNW]

I have seen the same type of performance. What you tell officers to do has far less impact on how they perform than how they ACTUALLY practice. What I see most often is freezing and staring at the gun, followed by repeating techniques that don't fix the problem over and over.

I am focusing more on trying to change training behaviors in the officers I work with, in addition to challenging them to meet higher standards.

[czech6]

I'm not surprised, we have the same problems.

I think you're doing way too much way too fast. Many officers will think you are a showoff for putting on that block of instruction, and won't get much useful out of it. It's information and Ego overload. I get that, in terms of time and ammo, you have unrealistic expectations for the resources provided. If you have problems with basic "tap, back, bang/assess/roll/etc", there's no reason to have reloads and especially running as part of the drill. Sometimes you have to take baby steps. Most guys will be flustered by malfunction clearance procedures and if the goal is clearing stoppages and malfunctions, don't dilute the basic lesson with unnecessary outside stressors.


Grabbing forward on the slide and cupping the ejection port so that they end up having to throw the dummy round to the ground because they caught it.
That's a range procedure issue and a trained habit. That's one of the easier ones to fix when unloading just have the officers eject the round. If it's at the range, it can be picked up during police call and if it's a duty round they can get a new round from the range staff.


Several would execute a speed reload upon getting the failure to fire, ejecting a magazine with live round(s)
Let me guess, they shoot a Sig or have carried a Sig. Or their thumb ride the slide stop while shooting.

[Hambo]

I agree with czech6. You ran a drill and found out you've got some people that couldn't handle it. Next time back up and don't tell them you're timing if you're not. Run malfunction clearance only until they can do it. If they get it quick you can always add to the drill and pick up the pace.

Do you run other malfunction drills with empty brass or just use dummy rounds?

[KevinB]

I've run Multi Agency In-service range training, where some officers run dry and look at the gun...

[psalms144.1]

I've run Multi Agency In-service range training, where some officers run dry and look at the gun...If I had a nickle for every time I had to "encourage" someone to reload when they were holding their pistol out at full extension with the slide locked to the rear on an empty magazine, NYistan would tax away 4.5 cents of the nickle, and I'd STILL be rich.

Seriously, this is on a qualification in which EVERY string of fire is six rounds, and EVERY magazine is loaded with six rounds, so EVERY 6th round, you have to do a slide-lock reload. And folks still stand there with their empty pistol pointed at the target, CLUELESS as to their weapon state.

I have seen experienced agents REHOLSTER their empty, slide-locked pistol, with no clue that there was a "problem" (TM pending)...

[CanineCombatives]

This is a big deal guys, from an officer safety standpoint it's the 800lb gorilla in the room, pistol is the most perishable skill of any weapons system.
It's also the primary tool of officer survival in a lethal encounter about 96% of the time.
Bottom line we have to do better, that starts at the top, with a fresh administrative perspective on pistol training and qualification, and trickles all
the way down to the officer who has to realize that they will need to invest their own time and their own dime to get better.
Fact is, it is their responsibility to be better skilled with the pistol that's on their hip than the bad guys, we have to rethink the entire historically
imbedded system of police sidearm proficiency, how we have failed and what we need to do to fix it.
Hearing stories like the original post both infuriates me and breaks my heart, we have to collectively come together on this and change it from within.

[KevinB]

Sadly with all POST training I am aware of - its not going to happen at least on a national scale.

It's to painful to bare when one of the idiots then gets annoyed he zero'd a drill on a re-cert as his weapon was dry.

The other problem is on the majority of OIS's LE does well, and is further used to justify maintaining or reducing the already inadequate training.

[CanineCombatives]

The latest national stats show a 20% hits to shots fired ratio, ie. 2 out of every ten rounds. I don't see how anyone could
make the argument that is "doing well". But your right, there's tons of roadblocks in place, maybe it does all fall back to
individual responsibility, if the number one goal is making it home at the end of the shift then shouldn't it be an absolute
solemn obligation to one's family and self to be as proficient with the pistol as possible?

[KevinB]

Until the 80% misses start putting Nun's and baby's in the morgue - the bureaucracies are going to keep smiling and say all is good.
My Chief requires more than the state mandated % on the quals - but I think those are few and far between. Mind you he's been in a gunfight, so...

[KeeFus]

Until the 80% misses start putting Nun's and baby's in the morgue - the bureaucracies are going to keep smiling and say all is good.
My Chief requires more than the state mandated % on the quals - but I think those are few and far between. Mind you he's been in a gunfight, so...

Very few and far between. We have to pass the states minimum score of 70%.

[heyscooter]

Because of planned re-modeling and upgrades on our range, we lost one quarter of live fire training during the past year; though actual training involving Sims and blue guns was done during that quarter. The last time the whole organization had a block on stoppages, malfunctions was fall of 2013.


It's worth trying to combine some concepts and induce stoppages during scenarios with sim guns. It's one thing to have someone work through a stoppage on a one way range, but you'll reaaallllly start seeing the pitfalls of lack of training with sim guns. You add in what else the brain is trying to assess, judge and decide on, you'll start seeing some weirdo ways to clear a stoppage. Ironically, depending on the sim rounds you're using (coughFXcough), shooters will get plenty of practice doing malfunction drills during exercises cause of their lack of reliability.



When he had his first failure to fire, a left-handed shooter transferred the pistol to his right hand and then cleared the stoppage via Tap, Rack& Roll. No, he has never been a right-handed shooter;


huh. I used to change hands (I'm wrong handed) when I was doing an admin load. Even with my bear paws I can't seem to actuate the slide stop to upload the gun, so I always end up switching hands. Maybe you're seeing some wacky training scar or something. Just pointing this out.

[czech6]

It's worth trying to combine some concepts and induce stoppages during scenarios with sim guns. It's one thing to have someone work through a stoppage on a one way range, but you'll reaaallllly start seeing the pitfalls of lack of training with sim guns. You add in what else the brain is trying to assess, judge and decide on, you'll start seeing some weirdo ways to clear a stoppage. Ironically, depending on the sim rounds you're using (coughFXcough), shooters will get plenty of practice doing malfunction drills during exercises cause of their lack of reliability.

Does that serve some sort of training purpose, or is it to massage the instructors' douchebag ego and make them feel superior to the morons they are training?

Regardless of intent, most cops will leave training like that with feelings of the latter about the instructors. We know most officers will have trouble doing malfunction clearance on the square range, why do we need to confirm what we already know is going to happen in a high pressure scenario? How does the student benefit from that? What's the value of having a guy leave training with the mindset of "sims guns are crap, the instructors are douchebags, and my entire day got wasted on this crap". Once the students feel like they are getting screwed with, they start coming up with excuses and playing the blame game, and nothing gets retained from training.

Most cops have egos the size of the moon that are about as tough as a porcelain doll. Successful training is about assessing a student's needs, challenging the student, and toeing (but not crossing) the line that turns the student into an insolent butt hurt 5 year old.

[heyscooter]

Does that serve some sort of training purpose, or is it to massage the instructors' douchebag ego and make them feel superior to the morons they are training?

Regardless of intent, most cops will leave training like that with feelings of the latter about the instructors. We know most officers will have trouble doing malfunction clearance on the square range, why do we need to confirm what we already know is going to happen in a high pressure scenario? How does the student benefit from that? What's the value of having a guy leave training with the mindset of "sims guns are crap, the instructors are douchebags, and my entire day got wasted on this crap". Once the students feel like they are getting screwed with, they start coming up with excuses and playing the blame game, and nothing gets retained from training.

Most cops have egos the size of the moon that are about as tough as a porcelain doll. Successful training is about assessing a student's needs, challenging the student, and toeing (but not crossing) the line that turns the student into an insolent butt hurt 5 year old.


You make a valid point, but you're reading a bit too much into what I'm trying to say. When I said "it's worth trying" I meant it just like that. It's not a proven or tested technique. I agree with you, instructors need to get a read on their students to analyze what will work best, but figuring out what your salty dog student will react to is a separate issue from my point.

How I came to my suggestion was through the last time I was going through some firearms training with sim guns. The class ran between intermediate and advanced skill levels of shooters with one or two outliers. Even so, I'd say the first half of the day we all looked pretty goofy. Deer in the headlights moments, performing actions out of order, etc. But by the end of the course we were going through immediate action drills with relative ease. Yes, while we weren't enthralled that the sim guns weren't running at 100% reliability, we were at least getting the malfunction clearing procedures down without really thinking about them (this was enumerated at the end of the day too).

[David Armstrong]

I take a different tack. After a few decades of training less-than-dedicated shooter I have gone to the very basic KISS process. Teach one thing that will solve almost all problems, teach it well, teach it over and over. If your gun doesn't work, reload your gun. Take out the old mag, put in a new mag, rack the slide. Those that want to learn more will learn more, those that don't care will at least have a skill that will cover almost all scenarios.

[nwhpfan]

I'm glad I don't work in the type of area described in posts like this. Where I work we train once a month...being instructed, learning something based on a year long curriculum set each year. As said earlier regarding small doses frequently - it works from my observations. My agency does the same with DT's as well - once a month.

Hit rate; our guys hit all the time. Minus one "tactical blind fire" incident, our hit rate is probably in the 70% range. And that's total rounds fired from behind shot at, on the move, moving targets, etc.

Bu at one point do we not look at the students and look at the teachers, instruction, and the overall environment.

I can only speak from what I see at my agency using the system it uses. I've never seen anyone look at an empty pistol, I've never seen anyone not know how to clear a malfunction and not get back to it. I've never seen anyone that can't hit the target from 25 yards, or reload fast (relatively speaking).

But I believe firearms training (and training in general) is important where I work and 15 years ago we were pretty progressive in how we were going to run our training program -and the results have been good.

[jnc36rcpd]

We have similiar issues in my organization...as I imagine most of do unless the agency has a solid commitment to taining such as nwhpfan's outfit.

Angus, given that you're identified a problem, I'm sure you will find ways to address the issue. I would suggest running simpler drills until your officers are proficient in both clearing malfunctions and reloading on heir own. Qualification drills have an unfortunate habit of teaching officers to follow the directions of the range officer rather than solving problems on their own.

While I like the idea of using force on force drills, we have found that most malfunctions in our SigSauer 226 Simunition weapons cannot be cleared by tap/rack/assess. That said, force-on-force can teach officers to manage ammunition.

Training officers to simply reload when the weapon stops working is something I read in a Larry Nichols article many years ago. While it's simplicity has its appeal, I think most officers can and should be trained in other clearance techniques. Reloading won't work if the officer is not carrying a spare magazine when off duty or in plainclohes. I agree that a spare magazine should always be carried, but many simply will not do so (or may be down o their last magazine in a firefight).

I picked up a drill at an IALEFI RTC some years ago that reinforced skills and was both fun and challenging. Five or so weapons were set up across the range. The weapons were in various stages of inoperability (unloaded, stovepipe, manual safety engaged). At the go signal, the officer moves acoss the range, gets the weapon operational, and delivers a required number of shots to a target. You can run variations such as setting up two mirror courses and have officers compete. In most organizations, running some malfunction drills before this exercise is probably a good idea.

Fom running the "malfunction junction" course, I note that many officers skip the tap aspect of tap/rack/threat, often repeatedly and with an instructor yelling "Tap, rack, threat!" behind them. Those who only qualify with the shotgun when mandated have tremendous dificulty loading them. Lastly, these odd handguns that go round and round are a mystery to many, including those who started their careers with them.

[ToddG]

The other problem is on the majority of OIS's LE does well, and is further used to justify maintaining or reducing the already inadequate training.

I would take that comment and, in combination with what David said, challenge folks to look at this more critically in terms of what works as opposed to what all good shooters should know.

I did a class a few years ago for a large LE agency where many of the instructors had never done SHO or WHO reloads or malf clearances. Obviously, they didn't teach such techniques in the Academy. Now admittedly I was flabbergasted by the lack of at least covering that at a basic level but ... in all the years of the agency's existence, an agency that gets in a fair number of 2-way gunfights each year, it had been an issue zero times.

If officers are missing 80% of their shots, perhaps figuring out why that is happening and addressing that should be a higher priority than worrying if they know how to do the almost-never-necessary things like WHO backflip reloads. Stoppages, IMHO, are best addressed by having quality weapons, mags, and ammo. Will there still be occasional stoppages? Yes. Should officers be taught the best way to do that? Yes. They should never have to figure stuff out on their own in the middle of a fight if that can be helped. But letting them see the movie once or twice so they can recall it later on down the line might be enough in the grand spectrum of things they could be spending their time & ammo allotments on.

The issue gets worse when there is a high profile wild event. The guy who gets his right hand blown off and needs to shoot, reload, etc with his weak hand is going to be a story that gets around in our circles really, really fast... much faster than the "officers draws, fires six, hits twice, bad guy DRT" story that happens every day will get around. So we become tuned to seeing the far outlier events as a serious problem when in fact the guy who threw four rounds into the no-safe-area "backstop" in the middle of the street is probably worth more concern.

If you have infinite training resources, you teach everything to the nth degree. Once that infinite resource starts to dwindle, you need to prioritize. In a .mil unit with old, poorly maintained, worn out M9s maybe malf clearances are more relevant than to the agency that just bought all new G17s. The agency issuing NY+++ Glock triggers might need to give up some of the rare OBE training to make sure guys can press the trigger without throwing the sights into the next zip code.

Looking at what is relevant to your specific audience is important.

As instructors, we often want everyone to be great at everything. No one wants to see an officer killed or injured and think, "If only I had taught him how to XYZ." I've never been in that situation and cannot even imagine what it must feel like. But at the end of the day, again when resources are limited, the goal has to be giving the most people the most valuable training even if it means you cannot give every shooter everything.

Probably the subject for another thread, but when I teach/taught at agencies one of the things I'd discuss with FIs was how to motivate non-gunny cops to practice more. Motivating guys to be more serious about using the resources they can manage is better than trying to force them to drink from a firehouse once a year. IMHO (never been a cop, solider, Marine, or even mall ninja).

[John Hearne]

While I like the idea of using force on force drills, we have found that most malfunctions in our SigSauer 226 Simunition weapons cannot be cleared by tap/rack/assess.

Those are caused by bad feeding and can be prevented by making sure the gun is lubed and bore-snaking them after every scenario.

A tip I picked up in the Simunitions Instructor school was to make you own inert Sims rounds. Simply get a fired case off the ground, force the "piston" back in to the case and put a bullet on top. This round will feed fine but will not fire, generating a click instead of a bang.

Something else worth doing, is to load make sure the round in the chamber is a different color than everything in the magazine. This allows you to evaluate whether they're getting first round hits or not.

[jnc36rcpd]

The armorers do clean the weapons between scenarios, but I'm not sure if any of them know what a Bore-snake is.
I do like the idea of using a different colored round for the first shot.

[Chuck Haggard]

An unmentioned part of why LEOs often have such a poor hit rate is that the bad guys initiate the gunfight. As noted in the "Violent Encounters" study, most of the coppers looked at were wounded in the initial exchange of shots. Getting shot just might fuck with your being able to shoot good.

In our shootings locally we have a very high hit rate, at one point we had nine in a row in the space of about 18 months, with 100% hits. Gunfighting is a bit tougher.

[Wayne Dobbs]

An unmentioned part of why LEOs often have such a poor hit rate is that the bad guys initiate the gunfight. As noted in the "Violent Encounters" study, most of the coppers looked at were wounded in the initial exchange of shots. Getting shot just might fuck with your being able to shoot good.

In our shootings locally we have a very high hit rate, at one point we had nine in a row in the space of about 18 months, with 100% hits. Gunfighting is a bit tougher.

Very true, Chuck. To borrow a couple of Ken Hackathorn's thoughts, you want to be in a shooting, NOT a gunfight. If we can set up things for a non-spontaneous shooting, we normally hit at much higher percentages with much better hits. When a two way exchange takes place, usually with the BG firing first, things start looking ugly very quickly.

It's hard to get across to lots of cops, but if we will teach (and they will learn) pre-combat non-verbal signals that most of the turds display and IF they will get tools in hand BEFORE "kickoff", we will see much better results with regard to officer performance and less risk to whomever and whatever is serving as the backstop that night.

[psalms144.1]

Very true, Chuck. To borrow a couple of Ken Hackathorn's thoughts, you want to be in a shooting, NOT a gunfight. If we can set up things for a non-spontaneous shooting, we normally hit at much higher percentages with much better hits. When a two way exchange takes place, usually with the BG firing first, things start looking ugly very quickly.

It's hard to get across to lots of cops, but if we will teach (and they will learn) pre-combat non-verbal signals that most of the turds display and IF they will get tools in hand BEFORE "kickoff", we will see much better results with regard to officer performance and less risk to whomever and whatever is serving as the backstop that night.Wayne/Chuck - fantastic observations. Without pushing this into Romper Room territory, current political climate makes me concerned that folks are going to be less and less willing to be prepared and watchful for warning signs, and will instead err more towards the side of trying to de-escalate so as to not be the next person burned in effigy. I'm very concerned with the report out of NYPD of the mutt shooting out windows who them pointed his pistol at police and PULLED THE TRIGGER but did not get shot.

And, Todd, as always, thanks for the spot-on thoughts. My biggest concern whenever I set up FOF training is avoiding role players going ninja. I've literally been in FOF scenarios where BGs were hidden in the rafters behind a short wall and shot trainees in the back after they cleared (successfully) the first floor, stair well, and hallway of the second floor. Has it happened, and have officers lost their lives, yes. I believe it was Tampa or St. Pete a couple years ago when a BG sniped responders from the attic crawl space, shooting through a partially-opened ladderway.

I'd be VERY happy if I could get the guys in my "squad" (about 15 folks spread over four states in the NE) to the point where they could CONSISTENTLY draw and fire one GOOD hit from concealment in under 1.5 seconds inside 7 yards. Then I'd work retention shooting and firearms retention drills - because, as plain clothes guys, we're most likely to have issues up close. Next I'd work on getting their "splits" into the .2ish range without loss of accuracy, followed by recognition of, moving to, and shooting from cover. After that I'd like to see folks consistently able to hit discrete targets at 15-50 yards from cover.

I usually try to work in a "oh kitten" drill once or twice a year. I have everyone throw their mags in an ammo can, then their buddies load three magazines with a random number of live and dummy rounds. The shooters then grab three magazines, head to the line, and execute a pre-set drill, and have to recognize and work through the problems they encounter. Surprisingly, the folks who stand there with an empty pistol at full extension during quals do fairly well on these drills, so I attribute SOME of their non-performance during qualification to the training scar of "I'm on the line, I only do what I'm told to do, because SAFETY!"

I also teach, demo, and dry-fire drill strong and weak hand weapon manipulation, but it's a couple of minutes each quarter as a "think about this" drill.

Regards,

Kevin

[Erick Gelhaus]

Thanks for the responses. I talked with Nyeti before posting this. As a left hander, I was surprised that I missed the first thought he had ... the left hander who swapped hands had seen clearance drills demonstrated by right handers more oft than not. True, the last training with repeatedly working through the various stoppages was fall 2013 and there weren't any left hand instructors teaching in that cycle.

That training cycle, other training and the qual course includes SHO and WHO work, courtesy of Uncle Scotty's influence.

Other insight that I hadn't considered was that this might have been too much material, too quickly. None of these were new shooters, they've all been in our program for 7 to 25 + years.

Last fall and again this spring, most everyone got the joy of Sims stoppages, albeit unintentionally. I'll take another look for commentary I need to respond to, again, thank you all.

[Chuck Haggard]

The instructors not doing a left handed demo was the first thing I also thought of.

Any instructor that can't teach basic students to work the gun left and right handed shouldn't be teaching IMHO

[Erick Gelhaus]

Unload / Reload the Gun vs Tap, Rack & Roll &/or Lock, Rip, Rack, Reload ....

Have seen it done with Glocks in all manner of dirty, filthiness and it seems that it works every time. Seems. Have gotten it to work with my own and a few other M&Ps, in similar states. Not sure sure it is a big enough sample.

What about ... the various H&K polymer frames? 1911 pattern guns? Sigs? Browning HiPowers? Berettas? 4 digit Smiths? Ruger LCPs?
If you've got insight on those, please share.

Those are most, but not all of the pistols we've got in service with just shy of 300 cops. IF we change from what we've taught, we've got to ensure it works that wide of a spread. Fwiw, none of the outside instructors we've brought in for our staff have suggested a switch.

[Chuck Haggard]

I was teaching "Tap-Roll/Rack-Bang (or to be politically correct -Reassess/Whatever/YouKnowWhatIMean...) and Rip-Rack-Reload towards the end of my time as our rangemaster, that was from working with a group of shooters in the 325ish range.

It worked.

I also taught running the side instead of hitting the slide stop on reloads. Not because of "fine motor" and all that stuff, but because that reload and "Tap-Roll-Rack..." malf immediate action both fed off of the palm heel smacking the magazine baseplate. In my observation it was easier for the non-dedicated shooters to work both issues from that start point.

I know for a WELL trained shooter the slide stop is faster, but I have also noted that needing to reload isn't any more common in OISs than needing to get the gun working again when it chokes. I'm actually finding that needing to reload in a police shooting seems to be a rather rare event, and although I can't put numbers on it, since semi-autos have come into being the major police issued sidearm it looks like malfs may be at least as common as needing to reload, if not more so.

I talked to Keith Jones awhile back and one of the topics of discussion was his history of the cop gunfights in Hoosieropolis. He tracked like 143 of them, and even in the revolver days they only had one guy that needed to reload to finish the deal.

Anyway, a theory I am working on.........

[heyscooter]

Last fall and again this spring, most everyone got the joy of Sims stoppages, albeit unintentionally. I'll take another look for commentary I need to respond to, again, thank you all.

Just as an addendum to my original post, my agency switched to UTM sim rounds, which perform remarkably better, and last time I played with them did not seem to have the same amount of problems. Your mileage may vary, etc etc.


Those are caused by bad feeding and can be prevented by making sure the gun is lubed and bore-snaking them after every scenario.

Totally valid point, sim guns can definitely go belly up pretty quickly.

[JF1]

"Regardless of intent, most cops will leave training like that with feelings of the latter about the instructors. We know most officers will have trouble doing malfunction clearance on the square range, why do we need to confirm what we already know is going to happen in a high pressure scenario? How does the student benefit from that? What's the value of having a guy leave training with the mindset of "sims guns are crap, the instructors are douchebags, and my entire day got wasted on this crap". Once the students feel like they are getting screwed with, they start coming up with excuses and playing the blame game, and nothing gets retained from training."

I get we can't control how others think/feel, but if the message being taken away by most of the students was "That scenario was BS," then the instructors need to look at how the scenario was designed, objectives, and how the debrief was handled. At some point the training needs to progress to pushing the student's comfort envelope so they can improve. You're not going to get past some folks' egos, but how well do your instructors design and sell the training from the square range/tactics onto force on force?

We have instructors that teach firearms manipulations in a dry setting at the beginning of the academy firearms training and then expect the students to remember how to fix the problem when they encounter a malfunction later on during live fire training even though they may not have experienced a malfunction for the past several training sessions. Our use of force instructor lectures/tests the academy in a classroom setting, but doesn't follow up with any simulator, use of force report writing, or force on force scenarios. How well do you think these students fair on their own to do these tasks? The problems I see with training consists of lack of time/frequency dedicated to train, inexperienced instructors (been/still there) and fragmented staff with different agendas. Trying to maintain a staff of arrest and control, patrol procedures, and firearms instructors that are on the same page and having a supervisory and command structure that supports putting a quality product out there vs a "check the box warm body in the seat" officer is hard to do. Passing a watered down test is the bench mark for administrators.

[John Hearne]

And, if you already have Simunitions conversion kits, the Speer force-on-force ammo seems to be a marked improvement over the Simunitions brand rounds.

[Chuck Haggard]

Concur with John ref the Speer FOF ammo, that proved to be vastly more reliable in our Glock Sim guns

[heyscooter]

And, if you already have Simunitions conversion kits, the Speer force-on-force ammo seems to be a marked improvement over the Simunitions brand rounds.

I see what you did there. *golfclap*

[Surf]

I will first note that I know Randy and Gene fairly well and I am certified from both ATK and SIMUNITIONS but I have no dog in the fight for either company. Supposedly my employer is one of and at times the largest account with SIMS and my unit uses a good majority of that, so our exposure is heavy. Great training tools. As for ATK, it has been a couple of years or more since I went through the 3 day ATK FoF instructor course and my unit did heavy trials, so these were my observations on the ATK FoF ammo.

ATK has an interesting back story on development of this round and when in development was costly and from an engineering standpoint one of the most complicated munitions, live or otherwise that the ATK engineers tackled. Sounds odd as ATK is huge, but the round presented interesting problems due to its gel marking component. Because of this never drying out, easily cleaned marking gel the balance between velocity and keeping the head of the round intact during firing and the ability of the rounds outer skin to rupture on impact was a tough balance. In back to back heavy testing trials, we personally found that the ATK needed a more rigid surface in order to rupture and leave a mark. On the upside, due to the lack of wax on the round, barrel fouling, cleaning and weapon function reliability increased. The 5.56 rounds were amazingly accurate with the o-ring. The other downside is we actually like the smell of the powder. Besides casings, power burn smell is a valuable indicator and there isn't one with ATK. This is a positive for some agencies when indoors, or at least touted as being "green" or more "environment friendly" as there is no primer powder smell. It was claimed that the ATK round had less force on impact. Myself and my partner ran 3 days of pure T-shirts and took the initial hits on the rib cage and back of the thigh for the introduction. It felt about the same to me and my partner. We were pretty damn tore up after 3 days. Maybe improvements were made since then, but it was a wash in that area IMO.

At that time ATK safety gear was still in development and many of our ideas got sent to the design guys and improvements were made. Randy had just went to ATK and the program was in the early stages at that time, so I can only expect great things from ATK, if they choose, because they are a giant.

[Surf]

Oh, sorry as far as the original topic, I just spent a good majority of the past year training several hundreds of Officers. I don't normally interact with your average Officer in the firearms training topic and this was an interesting experience. I have many years in so I am fully aware of the issues faced, especially from a very large agency, however as mentioned, this experience was eye opening. I found many experiences to be the exact same as mentioned by others in this thread. We had 2 separate training groups and myself and my 2 guys put a good bit of emphasis on the remedial, type I and II stuff into our 2 day courses. While we had a schedule to follow, it was at the least an eye opener for many Officers on how lacking they were skill wise. It is up to those who choose, to do something about it from here. Invitation was left wide open for ongoing training at no expense to them, just their own time. Of course, like any agency you have those who shrug it off an just drive on. Sad, but none the less a reality.

[JustOneGun]

Just as an addendum to my original post, my agency switched to UTM sim rounds, which perform remarkably better, and last time I played with them did not seem to have the same amount of problems. Your mileage may vary, etc etc.



Totally valid point, sim guns can definitely go belly up pretty quickly.

I did like the UTM rounds because they malf a lot less and are much more accurate. They do however have a small cross section and hurt a lot when you get shot at close range. Definitely need to have good range safety when you shoot them. The rounds (at least a few years ago) have an aluminum base. They sometimes go under the skin if you are shot from close range. Mandatory long-sleeved shirts stopped this.

[John Hearne]

At that time ATK safety gear was still in development and many of our ideas got sent to the design guys and improvements were made. Randy had just went to ATK and the program was in the early stages at that time, so I can only expect great things from ATK, if they choose, because they are a giant.

You may want to look at the Phoenix RBT protective gear. It took them forever to get their helmet on line but I really like the design. Basically the face mask tips up allowing you to debrief very comfortably. The headgear will allow cheekweld with long guns if you push your cheek down. I haven't had a chance to see how durable they are but the basic design is very solid.

[heyscooter]

I did like the UTM rounds because they malf a lot less and are much more accurate. They do however have a small cross section and hurt a lot when you get shot at close range. Definitely need to have good range safety when you shoot them. The rounds (at least a few years ago) have an aluminum base. They sometimes go under the skin if you are shot from close range. Mandatory long-sleeved shirts stopped this.

Allegedly the T&E guys also found out what you found out the hard way. They were digging them out of skin and everything.

The pain isn't that bad with their pistol rounds. With their 5.56 it's not as fun for sure, but we get on with it. Also the way UTM works is pretty fascinating. All of this discussion about the genesis of how sim rounds came about is pretty interesting as far as the engineering; it's no wonder they cost more than normal ammo.

Also, you haven't lived until you've tried out an M249 with sim rounds. WOOF.

[Wayne Dobbs]

During service on one DoS contract, I was fortunate/unfortunate enough to be an OPFOR role player. I've been shot dozens of times with UTM from 5.56 platforms. They are very accurate and hurt like hell and can penetrate. We had a 5 meter "do not shoot the nice OPFOR guys" rule but it didn't always get followed. I've seen some bloody OPFOR dudes from UTM and therefore, I think it's the preferred choice. As noted, the pistol rounds don't hurt as bad but seem to be more accurate to distance and more durable than Sims ammo.

[Chuck Haggard]

Not that the Sim rounds can't also get to be a pain. I once caught a hot round from a carbine that penetrated my BDU sleeve and was deep enough into my left tricep that a bud had to pull it out with a set of needlenose pliers.

I think some people like the UTM simply due to the F up the OPFOR factor.

[JustOneGun]

Not that the Sim rounds can't also get to be a pain. I once caught a hot round from a carbine that penetrated my BDU sleeve and was deep enough into my left tricep that a bud had to pull it out with a set of needlenose pliers.

I think some people like the UTM simply due to the F up the OPFOR factor.

You could be correct. As long as the department understand the ranges that they can be used at and avoid hurting officers unnecessarily there really isn't a problem. I guess safety is just one problem of poorly constructed FoF training. As you suggest, if you push the minimum usable range of a round, be it UTM or Sim there are going to be problems. And UTM rifle ammo is particularly difficult to use close in.

Although I do have many more sore knuckles from UTM than Sims. Those small rounds just tend to find their way between the panels of the gloves and cracks in the torso padding. Not only are they higher velocity but they sometimes strike with the metal base first instead of the marker portion of the round.

Never-the-less what a wonderful way to teach and what a great job to have. It also is quite a laboratory to learn what works and what doesn't for the instructor too. I was always amazed at instructors just blasting away at officers instead of giving the required stimulus (good teaching) and then watching how they all reacted to the particular stimulus in a given technique (good learning). I still believe that I learned more from being a bad guy than I ever did at officer training.

[Chuck Haggard]

Seeing a tactic used from both the good guy and the bad guy perspective is VERY educational.

[John Hearne]

FWIW, I've run both Sims FX and Speed Force-on-Force through carbines. I recently picked up several of the KWA PTR's and will never use anything else unless I need marking. They are a 100% stand in for a real gun and are accurate out to 35 yards.

[David Armstrong]

I was teaching "Tap-Roll/Rack-Bang (or to be politically correct -Reassess/Whatever/YouKnowWhatIMean...) and Rip-Rack-Reload towards the end of my time as our rangemaster, that was from working with a group of shooters in the 325ish range.

It worked.

I also taught running the side instead of hitting the slide stop on reloads. Not because of "fine motor" and all that stuff, but because that reload and "Tap-Roll-Rack..." malf immediate action both fed off of the palm heel smacking the magazine baseplate. In my observation it was easier for the non-dedicated shooters to work both issues from that start point.

I know for a WELL trained shooter the slide stop is faster, but I have also noted that needing to reload isn't any more common in OISs than needing to get the gun working again when it chokes. I'm actually finding that needing to reload in a police shooting seems to be a rather rare event, and although I can't put numbers on it, since semi-autos have come into being the major police issued sidearm it looks like malfs may be at least as common as needing to reload, if not more so.

I talked to Keith Jones awhile back and one of the topics of discussion was his history of the cop gunfights in Hoosieropolis. He tracked like 143 of them, and even in the revolver days they only had one guy that needed to reload to finish the deal.

Anyway, a theory I am working on.........
That info seems to agree with what I've seen, that the need for a reload in a fight is extremely rare and the need for a fast reload is a rarity among the rare. I tend to advocate it (reload) as a malfunction response for the non-dedicated simply because it is an action that is already trained into the folks and is probably one of the more common manipulations they do on a regular basis, thus they get regular reinforcement of the skill. Certainly not the ideal solution, just a way to address what are sadly some of the realities of the business.

[Surf]

Seeing a tactic used from both the good guy and the bad guy perspective is VERY educational.Agreed and I learn more about the efficacy of any tactic and wring things out by being the bad guy. Over the years I have taken more SIMS rounds than probably all of our other instructors combined, but that is because I like to place myself square within the crosshairs so to speak. Some think I am just sadistic and like to get hit and like to shoot others, but besides that, it really is IMO the best way to try to find chinks in the armor. In addition it also makes you a much better tactician on the giving end of things. Your "rolodex" gets so filled by the "what ifs" from the bad guys perspective it is invaluable. I often take students who may have issues in grasping something and let them view things from the perps view. You will often see that proverbial light bulb go on much sooner.