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JDM
02-27-2011, 02:48 PM
What standard do you set? What does a gun have to do before it is put into a defensive role? Is there a widely accepted standard somewhere?

For me, 500 FMJ's and at least 200 of the JHP I'm going to carry have to run flawlessly before it gets considered for social purposes. Is this acceptable?

The guns that I apply the 500/200 standard to are guns with a well established track record I. E. Glock etc.

David
02-27-2011, 02:54 PM
The typical answer I've seen is 1000 rounds of your carry ammo without a gun related malfunction.

gtmtnbiker98
02-27-2011, 02:55 PM
The typical answer I've seen is 1000 rounds of your carry ammo without a gun related malfunction.For me, 1,000-rounds of range ammo and ~30-50 rounds of defense ammo. Then I call it good. Anymore, I run a new gun through a class and if it runs as expected, then it's good-to-go.

ToddG
02-27-2011, 03:03 PM
200-500rd of carry ammo and I'm happy. A gun I'm going to ccw is getting shot a lot the first day and the first week and the first month.

JDM
02-27-2011, 03:08 PM
The typical answer I've seen is 1000 rounds of your carry ammo without a gun related malfunction.

Holy expensive range trips Batman.

$30.00x20=$600 for 1000 GDHPs. Assuming 9mm and 50rd boxes. That's almost three cases of 9mm range ammo.

JodyH
02-27-2011, 03:23 PM
I don't have a problem carrying a service pistol from a top tier manufacturer after 100 rounds of FMJ and a 20 round box of carry ammo.
If I picked up another H&K P2000 tomorrow I'd have zero reservations about carrying it after a 120 round range session. Heck I'd carry it after running a magazine or two of carry ammo through it and not lose any sleep.

David
02-27-2011, 03:30 PM
Holy expensive range trips Batman.

$30.00x20=$600 for 1000 GDHPs. Assuming 9mm and 50rd boxes. That's almost three cases of 9mm range ammo.

Yes I agree, I can't afford to do it either but that is the typical answer I see given. I'm happy at 1,000 rounds of range ammo and 100 - 200 rounds of what I will carry in it.

David
02-27-2011, 04:29 PM
I went to try and find the source for the "1000 rounds of your carry ammo" rule, I could find quotes of the quote but once I found the source it seems those quotes weren't quoting the original source correctly. The original source seems to be from DocGKR but he doesn't say to fire 1000 rounds of your carry ammo thru the gun before carrying it. He says:


"Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to carrying it. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use."

Then followed by:

"Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance."

So am I correct to take it to be 1000 failure free rounds of any variety of ammo?


Source for DocGKR quotes: http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

Rverdi
02-27-2011, 04:50 PM
I'm in agreement on the 200-500 round area for carry, if it runs 100% thru that range I'm comfortable I've established reliability.
It takes me a whole lot more than that to be comfortable that I've established proficiency though. I'm a slow learner so I don't change much but when I do, that pistol gets lots of rounds before I'll carry it.

ToddG
02-27-2011, 04:52 PM
It takes me a whole lot more than that to be comfortable that I've established proficiency though. I'm a slow learner so I don't change much but when I do, that pistol gets lots of rounds before I'll carry it.

I just want to +1 this about ten thousand times.

YVK
02-27-2011, 05:30 PM
Add me too to a 200-300 rounds group. I do make a point of running several kinds of defensive ammo to be sure I can use them interchangeably, especially since my go-to source for HST ammo made it "LEO only purchase".

LittleLebowski
02-27-2011, 05:35 PM
500 rds without cleaning or additional lube, box or two of defensive ammo.

JodyH
02-27-2011, 07:10 PM
Along the same lines re: reliability.
I don't get too caught up in things like 500 rounds without lube or the 2000 round challenge being the reliability goal post for a carry gun.
If my carry gun will shoot every round I carry on my person without a hiccup, it's gtg.
While my current primary carry (H&K P2000Sk) would easily pass a 2k challenge, one of my previous carry guns (Colt LW Commander) would start bobbling after a long, hot, dirty range session.
No big deal because it was always 100% for the 3 magazines I had on my person.
My Kahr PM9 rarely goes more than 50 rounds between cleanings, no big deal because it has always been 100% and I only have 7 rounds on me for it anyway.
If it's 100% for my ammo loadout, it's gtg in my book.

SecondsCount
02-27-2011, 10:30 PM
After owning quite a few guns since 1988, I think 200 rounds is a good starting point. Any problems that I have had with a gun have revealed themselves in less than 100 rounds. After that I just keep shooting them for proficiency and if any problems come up I make a note of it. If the problem is persistent then I know that the issue is probably the gun and not the ammo.

For carry ammo I try to pick something that is quality and shoot at least 50 rounds through the gun before carrying it. I also run a variety of my reloads to see how the gun reacts. For instance, my M&P45c chokes on semi-wadcutters but runs fine on truncated, hollow point, and ball ammo, as well as Winchester Ranger T without an issue.

l8apex
02-27-2011, 10:36 PM
500 rounds of carry ammo = GTG for me.

fuse
02-27-2011, 10:40 PM
I don't have a problem carrying a service pistol from a top tier manufacturer after 100 rounds of FMJ and a 20 round box of carry ammo.
If I picked up another H&K P2000 tomorrow I'd have zero reservations about carrying it after a 120 round range session. Heck I'd carry it after running a magazine or two of carry ammo through it and not lose any sleep.

ditto glock

sqeeler
02-28-2011, 03:13 AM
i usually run about 500 rds of my reloads for break in , then 50 fact fmj and 50 fact jhp to be good 2 go

JohnN
02-28-2011, 11:18 PM
What standard do you set? What does a gun have to do before it is put into a defensive role? Is there a widely accepted standard somewhere?

For me, 500 FMJ's and at least 200 of the JHP I'm going to carry have to run flawlessly before it gets considered for social purposes. Is this acceptable?

The guns that I apply the 500/200 standard to are guns with a well established track record I. E. Glock etc.

This seems about right to me.

mgobel
03-01-2011, 08:29 AM
With a SIG / Glock / S and W etc.

200 rounds carry ammo

1000+ overall

Mark

mlk18
03-01-2011, 02:26 PM
I will jump on the 300-500 rounds of FMJ and 100 rounds or so of JHP bandwagon, minimally speaking of course. But you can expect about an equal number of dry fires, mag changes and holster presentations to that mix as well. Reliability is not just about function of a round firing and automatically loading another. I need to know if the mags will drop, slide will shut, slide will lock open, levers are not going to bend or break, what may snag, etc., etc.

JonInWA
03-01-2011, 02:48 PM
It depends upon the gun; for example, with a contemporary Glock/SIG/Beretta/HK I'm comfortable with 200 rounds of quality factory ammunition, followed by at least a magazine, preferably a box of the carry ammunition of choice.

For any 1911-platform pistol, I really think that prudence calls for an 800-1000 round probationary period, followed by a recoil spring replacement, followed by a further 200 round probationary period-with both probationary periods covering both the gun and all of the magazines- followed by testing of one's carry ammunition of choice in every magazine to be used.

For a revolver, to establish reliable functioning, probably 100 rounds are acceptable, followed by sufficient carry cartridges to accurately zero the gun. Speeedloaders should be tested for fit vis-a-vis the grips used on the revolver also during the probationary period.

Best, Jon

Ed L
03-02-2011, 12:15 AM
[QUOTE=JonInWA;2059]It depends upon the gun; for example, with a contemporary Glock/SIG/Beretta/HK I'm comfortable with 200 rounds of quality factory ammunition, followed by at least a magazine, preferably a box of the carry ammunition of choice.[quote]

I pretty much agree with a modern gun with a reputation for reliability. I recently bought a used Glock 17 and ran about 200 rounds of hardball and 100 rounds of HP through it. I used some new and some relatively new magazines rather than the used mags that came with it.

If it is a 1911 I want to fire more rounds before feeling good about it with about 200 rounds of problem-free carry ammo.

I think it is essential to use several different magazines and have them numbered.

If a problem crops up you then have to decide if it was that particular magazine, the ammo, or the gun. I can see the value of firing more rounds before considering the gun good to go. With the S&W M&P9 I would encounter a failure to extract every 300-500 rounds where the rim of the case was just barely out of the chamber. After the first time I thought it was a fluke, then I noticed a pattern that occurred with different ammo and different magazines. Ultimately I found out that S&W uses the same extractor on the 9mm & 40 S&W, and the 9mm sometimes has issues. I replaced it with with an Apex Tactical 9mm extractor and had no further problems. I also encountered a few instances of the rounds getting wedged together inside the magazines so they would not feed due to lack of spring pressure. It happened about 4-5 times over 7000 rounds in different magazines with different ammo. I replaced the followers with newer followers and used stronger extra market springs. I thought I had the issue licked when it resurfaced again in a new mag with an updated follower and spring. I also had the slide release break off on the right side after 6000 rounds.

The above issues are things that would not be discovered by firing firing 200 rounds of hardball and 100 rounds of HPs.

I think we are incredibly lucky these days in terms of what is available and the level of reliability and durability. At one time such guns were not commonly available and most tuned in shooters did not expect the mean rounds between failure as they expect nowadays.

I guess another question would be at what point do you not consider it reliable enough. I guess your perspective would depend on your knowledge level, experience, and what you can afford in terms of firearms and how much you can afford to test them.

WBower
03-03-2011, 01:01 PM
On my brand new new P30 LEM I will feel comfortable that the weapon has sufficient reliability for carry after 500 +/- rounds of ball, and 20-40 rounds of JHP carry ammo. I think that while this may prove the mechanical soundness of said weapon, it would only be an applicable trial if the gun in question were a duplicate of a weapon which the shooter is already proficient with.

As was stated earlier in the thread, I fully agree with the assessment that 500 rounds is not enough to reach the level of proficiency which one should be at in order to carry the piece for defensive purposes.

I know for me personally after coming from a M&P9C with a DCAEK to V2 LEM trigger no way would I feel comfortable enough about my competency level to carry the pistol after a mere 5 or 6 hundred rounds down the pipe. Maybe after 1000 - 1500 rounds and successfully passing the numerous timed standardized drills would I consider myself "ready" with the new pistol. YMMV and all that...

LittleLebowski
03-03-2011, 01:05 PM
Great first post, WBower. I may have to start a thread using that as inspiration.

cdunn
03-06-2011, 06:45 AM
I just want to +1 this about ten thousand times.

yeah, I'll shoot it until I feel confident with myself being able to run the gun efficiently not so much a round count, I mean most guns are going to go bang that I buy,I'm beyond buying something that might or might not work.And I'm a slow learner so most likely several hundred before that happens.

JodyH
03-06-2011, 08:31 AM
The thread is reliability not competency, two COMPLETELY different subjects.

Frank B
03-06-2011, 10:20 AM
I consider a gun as reliable for ccw/duty, if the gun passes a two day shooting class without malfunctions. If the gun require a break in period, the class should happen after that.

cdunn
03-06-2011, 10:34 AM
The thread is reliability not competency, two COMPLETELY different subjects.

maybe I was unclear.with me both happen about the same time with something new,several hundred rds. no set amount.

JodyH
03-06-2011, 11:14 AM
maybe I was unclear.with me both happen about the same time with something new,several hundred rds. no set amount.
I wasn't addressing your post specifically, but addressing several posts that were adding competency in to the discussion.
I have around 20k rounds through a P2000 over the past 6 months and have become fairly competent with that platform.
If tomorrow I bought another P2000 or another P2000Sk I'd be 100% comfortable with the new pistols RELIABILITY after a couple magazines of carry ammo and a field strip cleaning and inspection.
My experience with the platform and H&K's reputation are what gives me the confidence in a low round count to establish reliability.
I feel the same way about 2nd and 3rd Gen Glocks.
I'd carry a 3rd Gen Glock 19 with zero reservations after 25 rounds of carry ammo and a field strip inspection.
If I went out and bought a Springfield 1911 it'd be a different story, I can shoot a 1911 but I don't inherently trust the platform.

MDS
03-06-2011, 12:39 PM
The thread is reliability not competency, two COMPLETELY different subjects.

I don't know if they're completely different. I know I was causing failures to lock back on empty because of my grip on my USPc. I became more competent with training and practice, and now that pistol reliably locks back. While that doesn't reflect on the purely mechanical reliability of the USPc, you could argue that operator error is just one more source of malfunction. I agree with you - in the absence of operator error, reliability is all about the gun, not the user. But it seems worthwhile to consider competency as some part of the overall reliability equation.

JodyH
03-06-2011, 12:44 PM
Actually, any discussion about reliability of a carry gun should assume competency with that gun has already been established.
Why would you be testing the reliability of a carry gun that you aren't competent in shooting?
:cool:

MDS
03-06-2011, 01:07 PM
Actually, any discussion about reliability of a carry gun should assume competency with that gun has already been established.
Why would you be testing the reliability of a carry gun that you aren't competent in shooting?
:cool:

LOL, fair enough. As a noob, I guess I worry more about my own reliability than the gun's.

cdunn
03-06-2011, 01:23 PM
Actually, any discussion about reliability of a carry gun should assume competency with that gun has already been established.
Why would you be testing the reliability of a carry gun that you aren't competent in shooting?
:cool:
that sounds good

VolGrad
03-30-2011, 08:07 AM
We've got some good responses already so let's take this thread in a slightly different direction. MODs if you feel it is appropriate feel free to split this into a new thread.

What do you do if your new gun doesn't pass your "reliability" test?

Specifically, what if your new pistol continues to get malfs occasionally that can't be 100% determined as to the cause?

Do you continue to dump ammo (read $ and time) into it hoping the problems will resolve themselves?

For example, Todd is having issues with his Gen4 G17. His experience, including his attempts to fiddle with it to fix it himself (replacing extractors, springs, etc.) is all VERY interesting to me. However, I don't care to repeat it with mine. I would rather put my $/ammo/time into something I can be 100% confident in.

At what point do you, as we say here in the South, "drop back and punt"?

YVK
03-30-2011, 09:25 AM
We've got some good responses already so let's take this thread in a slightly different direction. MODs if you feel it is appropriate feel free to split this into a new thread.

What do you do if your new gun doesn't pass your "reliability" test?

Specifically, what if your new pistol continues to get malfs occasionally that can't be 100% determined as to the cause?

Do you continue to dump ammo (read $ and time) into it hoping the problems will resolve themselves?

For example, Todd is having issues with his Gen4 G17. His experience, including his attempts to fiddle with it to fix it himself (replacing extractors, springs, etc.) is all VERY interesting to me. However, I don't care to repeat it with mine. I would rather put my $/ammo/time into something I can be 100% confident in.

At what point do you, as we say here in the South, "drop back and punt"?

Depends on a gun. If it is a 1911, I ask a good gunsmith to look it over, and I replace springs and rebuild/replace mags.

If it is a modern design pistol, then one, at most two, trips to the factory.

The key for me is that the offending cause has to be identified with 100% certainty and beyond any reasonable doubt. If I don't know what's causing it - the gun is gone. If I know the cause and corrective measures are undertaken - it stays; if there is a single recurrence of a problem - it's gone.

VolGrad
03-30-2011, 09:32 AM
If it is a modern design pistol, then one, at most two, trips to the factory.
The issue with this is the factory generally requires you to send the gun back on your dime for inspection prior to any corrective action. With overnight shipping that's no small fee, especially if you and the factory don't agree if/when it's "fixed". Each time you get it back you are forced to spend more ammo (again, read $ and time) "testing" it again. Again .... note Todd has had to go back to the drawing board a couple of times already with the Gen4 G17. If this had required overnight shipping each time to GLOCK we would be talking a lot of $ and time expended just to have back a gun that was still not reliable.

It's a tough call.

ToddG
03-30-2011, 09:52 AM
If a gun doesn't work, it needs to go back to the manufacturer. That's what a warranty is for. Most will require you to pick up the tab to return it. That sucks, but having worked the other side of the issue it also keeps the manufacturer from spending a fortune each year on whimsical returns for things like "a scratch on the underside of the slide approximately 0.5mm long that ruins the intrinsic value of the piece" yadda yadda.

If a gun comes back from the manufacturer and still doesn't work, then insist they pay shipping to get it back a second time for further warranty work.

The only time I've had the gun come back a second time and still not work, I insisted on a replacement or refund, and received a replacement... which I promptly sold NIB.

VolGrad
03-30-2011, 10:27 AM
The only time I've had the gun come back a second time and still not work, I insisted on a replacement or refund, and received a replacement... which I promptly sold NIB.
I understand why companies don't want to pay return shipping for a first inspection. They don't know me from Adam and have no idea what my knowledge/experience base is.

However, it sucks when you know your issue isn't just petty crap but a real issue that needs to be addressed. My concern is when a particular issue (such as you are having with your personal Gen4 G19 AND the Gen4 G17 test gun) is still an issue after multiple attempts by the mfg to fix it.

I am guessing the first trip back to a mfg goes something like this;

gun rec'd from customer
gun detail stripped for inspection
nothing really stands out as out of spec/broken/overly worn/etc
small parts that might cause this issue replaced JIC
if it was test fired at all it was prob just a handful of rounds to make sure it functioned at all
gun sent back to customer hoping this will suffice


If this doesn't fix the issue I do agree most mfgs would take it back a second time, perhaps at their own expense. However, how much time has elapsed? How much inconvenience has the customer been through? How much ammo (read $ and time) has the consumer spent only to realize there is still an issue?

I am not sure how much of my posts are really questions vs a rant. Sorry for that. :confused:

SecondsCount
03-30-2011, 10:33 AM
I have never purchased a gun that gave me reliability issues but if I did, it would be going back to the factory for sure. One gun that I purchased needed warranty work and I sent it back to the factory via USPS through the FFL that it was purchased. This only cost about $25 compared to the $75 that UPS wanted.

ToddG
03-30-2011, 10:37 AM
SecondsCount make a very good suggestion, and in fact when my thrice-cursed G23 needed to go back to Glock so many times, I did in fact use the gun shop to do all the shipping.

As for the time, expense, and aggravation involved in returning and re-testing the gun, I'm with you 100%. I've now put over 5,000 rounds through two Glocks that I paid for out of pocket, and am essentially at square one. It's beyond frustrating.

VolGrad
03-30-2011, 10:37 AM
I have never purchased a gun that gave me reliability issues ....
Sadly I've sent guns back to SIG, GLOCK, Mossberg, and even Ed Brown. These are the ones I can think of off top of my head.

SIG and Mossy paid return shipping to them. GLOCK and EB did not. It is notable all these guns came back functioning 100%.

VolGrad
03-30-2011, 10:40 AM
SecondsCount make a very good suggestion, and in fact when my thrice-cursed G23 needed to go back to Glock so many times, I did in fact use the gun shop to do all the shipping.

As for the time, expense, and aggravation involved in returning and re-testing the gun, I'm with you 100%. I've now put over 5,000 rounds through two Glocks that I paid for out of pocket, and am essentially at square one. It's beyond frustrating.

My LGS won't ship guns for me. I have to use FedEx overnight for handguns. Our local UPS hub acts nutty every time I've tried to use them so I avoid them like the plague.

YVK
03-30-2011, 11:20 AM
If a gun comes back from the manufacturer and still doesn't work, then insist they pay shipping to get it back a second time for further warranty work.



I had zero luck making HK to pick up a tab for a second trip when my P7 stopped working immediately after returning from the first trip. This is just FYI...

JodyH
03-30-2011, 04:22 PM
I don't have the patience to mess around with a malfunctioning gun.
If they don't work to my satisfaction they're replaced with a gun that does work.
That way I'm not rushed or frustrated if it takes a long time to repair.
It also gives me more time to "service rep shop" until I find one willing to pay the shipping.
I've found that pics or video of your problem emailed to the rep go a long ways towards establishing that you have a serious issue and they are more likely to pick up the shipping tab.
:cool: