Rounds forward or rounds backward in Mag placement

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Looking at a silly ad for a two round mag holder, I saw one with one mag with rounds forward and the other with rounds backward. I've actually seen this at matches with beginners. They cited the ads and picture. Then, I was chatting with an officer that I know and saw he had the rounds facing backward.

I did that instinctively until a class. But I'm interested. The officer was taught and thought that the rounds back was ergonomically easier and instinctive using a full grip of the entire hand on the body of the mag. I was taught that with rounds forward you can check first round seating and it guides insertion better.

So - for my curiousity for those in the know:

How did the dichotomy in views of placement develop?

Is there any real empirical research on errors and speed?

Have competitors examined this - perhaps anecdotally? Are there real world incidents were position A or B led to better or worse outcomes?

[Lomshek]

Rounds forward is (for me) quicker and smoother and the same is true for the more serious competitors I see (I'm a small match director).

I don't know about checking the first round or making seating easier. It's just a less awkward wrist angle with bullets forward.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I do pistol reloads better if I have my index finger indexed on the front of the mag. Rounds forward.

[joshs]

I can only answer the third question, but IME competitive shooters, especially at higher levels, almost universally use rounds forward for pistol mags. Rounds forward takes advantage of the already existing ability of pointing at something with the index finger. I don't see a difference in the "fullness" of grip that rounds backwards would offer, at least with a mag pouch that is well designed for a rounds forward grip. For rifle mags (AR), I started with rounds forward because that's what I did with a pistol mag, but switched to rounds to the rear (at least for belt-mounted mags) because of the more secure grip it offers with larger mags.

[MVS]

There is one popular intsructor/personality who teaches rounds backward. Most others teach rounds forward or toward the centerline.

[Lon]

There is one popular intsructor/personality who teaches rounds backward. Most others teach rounds forward or toward the centerline.

Who? I'm curious because I have never seen anyone reload quicker with the bullets facing rearward when the mags are left of the centerline. Especially newer shooters under stress.

Discounting horizontal mags on a duty belt, I carry my spares with the bullets facing my centerline (in the front) if they are left of the centerline. When I was shootng limited class, I would generally have one mag to the right of the centerline. The bullets in that mag faced away from the centerline towards my pistol.

[psalms144.1]

I'm a bullets-forward guy, I find that it allows the most efficient, effective reload. I've attended training where the school taught bullets rear, with a full-fist grab of the magazine (thumb to the rear, rotating the magazine 180 degrees on the draw to align with the magwell). The logic there was that such a grip put the magazine in your hand in the best way to use it as a roll of quarters to punch someone if they closed while you reloaded.

Like I said, I'm still a bullets forward guy...

[Odin Bravo One]

I always place rounds pointed towards the front centerline of my body.

Unless I have a partial that has been placed back into a mag pouch, in which case, I place them backwards..........until partials are the only ones left, in which case, back to rounds forward.

I don't see where ammunition management to this degree is terribly applicable to domestic LE or the armed citizen, and don't know why anyone would choose to store magazines in any other way than rounds to centerline.

[orionz06]

When everyone who hates everyone in this little world I think people should take note on the things they all agree on. Bullets forward is one of them, except for one guy.

[JV_]

Who?Pincus.



Hey guys.. just got back form a road trip and saw this thread.. Waht Kor posted covers why I use the bullets back... it is not wrong by any stretch and I now find it quite entertaining when I am on a range and someone tells me that my mags are backwards.... At any rate, it is mechanically more efficient , but somewhat controversial because it goes against dogma, there is no other legitimate reason not to try it if you are a new shooter.... if you've been carrying bullets front forever, there is no significant reason to change.


As for the thumbs uncrosssed (layered), by crossing your thumbs at any point, you are keeping one thumb from touching the gun (and most likely a part of that thumb's hand), which lowers the overall surface area that you have touching the gun to control recoil, etc.... it has nothing to do with stance.


Thanks for watching, and discussing, the DVDs, by the way....

-RJP

[Lon]

.... At any rate, it is mechanically more efficient.....

Interesting. I'd love to hear his reasons for believing that.

Never could get through any of his videos/shows.....

[Casual Friday]

I was gonna guess Pincus or Yeager. I wouldn't be surprised to hear one of them endorse pulling the trigger with your support hand thumb.

Rounds forward for me.

[Frank75]

We had several instances, when a shooter with rounds facing backwards was able to push the frist round some millimeters out of the magazine, when he hit the upper part/edge of the pouch while drawing the magazine out of it. Then he could not load the magazine in the pistol of course, because the frist round sticked out to much. Therefore we teach rounds facing forward, because now this failure is not possible anymore.

[pdb]

Pistol mags: bullets forward. Rifle mags: bullets to the rear. Am I weird?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ever get confused between the two? Serious question. I don't shoot enough rifle to have thought about this. I keep the latter forward.

[MVS]

Pistol mags: bullets forward. Rifle mags: bullets to the rear. Am I weird?

I dont think so. That is how I run them. For me it is because I use a different grip for a rifle mag than I do a pistol mag.

As to the earlier question as to who. Those who answered RJP are correct. That is who I was referring to.

[HopetonBrown]

Luckily for Pincus he doesn't believe in shot timers, either. A lot of USPSA guys like Stoeger run bullets out.

From my Motorola StarTAC.

[MVS]

Luckily for Pincus he doesn't believe in shot timers, either. A lot of USPSA guys like Stoeger run bullets out.

From my Motorola StarTAC.

That is a bit misleading since he runs his mags 90 degrees to the belt not in parallel. I wouldn't run that way because I cant conceal them, but if I did bullets out would be the correct orientation.

[HopetonBrown]

What's "misleading"?

From my Motorola StarTAC.

[orionz06]

Luckily for Pincus he doesn't believe in shot timers, either. A lot of USPSA guys like Stoeger run bullets out.

From my Motorola StarTAC.

If I am not mistaken bullets out, with the mag rotated 90 degrees to what we call normal, still uses the same grip as bullets forward.

[MVS]

What's "misleading"?

From my Motorola StarTAC.

Maybe it is just misleading to me because I am not as smart as some. I read it as you advocating for the bullets rearward crowd.

[ReverendMeat]

Ever get confused between the two? Serious question. I don't shoot enough rifle to have thought about this. I keep the latter forward.

I do the same as pdb, hasn't presented any issues. When I saw all the cool kids doing rifle bullets forward I gave it a try, just didn't work at all for me. Went back to my "beer can grip" (as I was taught).

[nwhpfan]

Pistol mags: bullets forward. Rifle mags: bullets to the rear. Am I weird?

Seems natural to do it that way... And it helps an AR mag is curved.


Luckily for Pincus he doesn't believe in shot timers, either. A lot of USPSA guys like Stoeger run bullets out.

From my Motorola StarTAC.

Target grades your accuracy, timer grades your time. You can take so long your accuracy wont' matter....even in bullseye!

Bullets out is popular in competition and it may add bulk to concealed carry. It's probably not as popular because not many (if anyone) is making concealed carry bullets out magazine carriers. The ghost mag pouches for bullets out now are pretty bulky..

[dbateman]

I'm a rounds forward guy, I'v tried mags facing rearward it seemed very awkward to me.

[HCM]

If I am not mistaken bullets out, with the mag rotated 90 degrees to what we call normal, still uses the same grip as bullets forward.

Yes, this has been my experience with the Safariland "bullets out" duty belt carriers.

I run and we teach bullets forward / facing centerline for pistol using the index finger for reloads and bullets to the rear/away from centerline with a "beer can" grip for rifle. The different grips seem to prevent any confusion.

For those running horizontal pistol mag carriers we teach strong side with bullets facing up and the same index finger reload technique.

For those who don't follow the foregoing we at least try to get the to face all of their mags the same way.

[Clobbersaurus]

Ever get confused between the two? Serious question. I don't shoot enough rifle to have thought about this. I keep the latter forward.

I wear bullets forward with my rifle mags. It just seems more natural to me. But I have long fingers and gripping the rifle mag properly in that position is probably easier for me.

[Jay Cunningham]

This perhaps is a good topic to employ some critical thinking on and explain the "why" and "why not" instead of making fun of minority-opinion instructors or just parroting dogma or reporting what you see.

So...

WHY?

:)

[Artemas]

This perhaps is a good topic to employ some critical thinking on and explain the "why" and "why not" instead of making fun of minority-opinion instructors or just parroting dogma or reporting what you see.

So...

WHY?

:)

I was a bullets rear person for years. One trip to the range I forgot my mag pouch and had to borrow a friend's, which happened to be BF. After I figured out how to grab them, my fumbles reduced and my speed averaged out a little better. That's my "why":D

[Maple Syrup Actual]

In my case, I found that the grip I had on rear-facing mags - the beer-can grip - gave me less control on insertion than indexing my finger along the front of the mag. Occasionally I'd blow a reload, getting the mag in on an angle and having to wiggle it a bit on the way in.

Going to a forward-facing mag and indexing my finger solved that. I also find it a little easier to transition to the palm to drive the mag in from the finger index than the beer-can as I'm not slowing down to get my thumb out of the way. That aspect could probably be addressed if I kept my thumb flagged and just grabbed the mag with my fingers but at that point I think you've really lost any "it's more ergonomic" argument.


So I can't specifically quantify data on the subject but my reloads are cleaner and better with the index finger approach than otherwise.

[joshs]

Why bullets forward:


pointing with index finger is more "natural"
allows for easier trap and grab of closed front concealment garment
can be done with locked or nearly locked wrists
provides more positive method of seating magazine
more seamless transition to "freestyle" grip. I guess this wouldn't matter if you rack the slide to send it forward.

[Casual Friday]

This perhaps is a good topic to employ some critical thinking on and explain the "why" and "why not" instead of making fun of minority-opinion instructors or just parroting dogma or reporting what you see.

So...

WHY?

:)

Ok I'll bite since I made fun of Pincus and Yeager.

When I bought my first handgun in 2001, a Glock 19, in my very early 20's, I knew nothing about shooting or reloading a pistol. I didn't have a shot timer, the internet, and I'd never heard of Jeff Cooper, Mas Ayoob, or really any other well known self defense experts. I could only learn from trial by error so to speak. I started using a Buck knife sheath with the flap cut off for a mag pouch, bullets rearward because it seemed like the most natural way to reach around, grasp the mag with my pinkie and thumb and pull it out until I could wrap the rest of my hand around the mag, then roll the mag up and into the mag well and seat it. One day at the gravel pit, I couldn't seat the mag back in the pouch all way. I looked inside and there were two rounds laying in the bottom that had been stripped out of the magazine as I was attempting my sloppy reload. I found a handful more rounds loose in the gravel around my feet. The light bulb went on that I was doing something wrong. I tried changing up my technique a bit and pull the mag straight up and out but it didn't feel "right". I decided to try running the mags bullets forward and after a few reloads I could tell by the seat of my pants timer that it was at least smoother, required less motion, and it didn't turn my Clinton era mags into 8 rounders.

I still didn't know if it was THE correct way, but I knew it was the easiest way for me. It wasn't until probably 2004 or so when I got dial up and discovered Glock Talk, that I learned that the bullets forward method that I had invented(thinly veiled sarcasm) was the norm. Dave Spaulding once said that efficiency is the absence of wasted movement. That kinda sums up the "why" bullets forward and the "why not" bullets rearward reasoning to the best of my ability. No dogma parroting here for me, at least on this subject.;)

ETA: Don't even ask about my holster selection back then lol.

[45dotACP]

This perhaps is a good topic to employ some critical thinking on and explain the "why" and "why not" instead of making fun of minority-opinion instructors or just parroting dogma or reporting what you see.

So...

WHY?

:)

It's faster. Even faster for me is bullets out, but I only do that for USPSA :D

I'm sure Pincus and Yeager have their reasons. I saw a cop carrying his mags that way, but I thought that he might have his reasons, and if he got training from someone like Pincus, it's better than him not having training at all and I'd not want him to be in doubts about his training when he needed it.

That's why I never say anything to people to make them doubt. I'd sooner invite them to come train with me with a different instructor. But then again, I always invite other people to come train with me. My local instructor is a surprisingly good resource and does a lot to advance training and shooting sports in my state.

[RJ]

This perhaps is a good topic to employ some critical thinking on and explain the "why" and "why not" instead of making fun of minority-opinion instructors or just parroting dogma or reporting what you see.

So...

WHY?

:)

Representing the noob point of view:

Not having a clue, I actually tried it both ways before my very first 'action pistol' class last fall.

To me, what made sense was:

Lowering my reload hand (right for me) downward, palm facing back. My middle finger seems to automatically index on the front of the mag body with my palm wrapping around the top.

I then withdraw the mag, rotating my hand from 'down' to 'up', about an axis of my wrist.

By the time my mag hand meets my now empty pistol, my reload hand middle finger is aligned with the butt.

When I stared at the way I was doing this, they only way it would work would be to have the bullets face forward, in the mag pouch. So that's how I took the class.

[Casual Friday]

I'm sure Pincus and Yeager have their reasons.

I don't know that Yeager does run rounds rearward, he was just one of two likely subjects when we were playing the guessing game.

[Wendell]

Interesting. I'd love to hear his reasons for believing that. Never could get through any of his videos/shows.....

(~4:50)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJlhV3BnlS8

It's not easy to shoot with only one hand at a dynamic target 180 degrees from the direction you're running to...blind...and at top speed.

Maybe the reasoning behind that reload method is something like that.

[MVS]

This perhaps is a good topic to employ some critical thinking on and explain the "why" and "why not" instead of making fun of minority-opinion instructors or just parroting dogma or reporting what you see.

So...

WHY?

:)

Not sure who was making fun. I have met Rob a few times and actually like him, though I disagree with a lot of his training doctrine. I brought him up because he is one of the few "name" people I know that actually supports the bullet rearward approach.

[Luke]

I've wanted to make this thread for a while now. Thought I'd get laughed at! Glad it was asked!!

[dbateman]

When I carry mags on my belt, I carry pistol mags on my left side and rifle mags on my right.

Both pistol and rifle mags are bullets forward, the reasons are pistol mags are forward because I just sweep my hand back until it runs into the next mag.
I wrap my pinky ring finger and middle fingers around the mag index with my index finger (fancy that) and drive the mag into the pistol with the palm of my hand.
It seems very natural to me.

Rifle mags are carried on my right side bullets forward and the reload is very much the same as a pistol reload. I still index with my index finger, the reason for me carrying them like that is for me at least it requires less movement to reload when prone. The mag is oriented in the right way to be inserted into the rifle when I take it out of the pouch.
I just drop the empty mag reach back retrieve a loaded mag and keep on trucking.

[orionz06]

My thought process:

Rounds forward is the overwhelming standard. Seeing how my support hand is oriented off the gun and the effort required to rotate the wrist around to grab a mag with bullets backwards was enough to rule it out. Following the directions of proponents of rounds the other way was not helpful.

Bullets outward requires even less rotation of the wrist. Pair this with the support of the worlds best shooters and that is a strong enough set of anecdotal evidence for me to call it settled. I continue to read things that challenge conventional wisdom and fail to see a reason to change.

[Smaug]

Pincus demos his reload technique here;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Rv8IU2tFk

Personally, I run rounds forward for pistol mags and rounds back for rifle mags.

[Drang]

How much of a time difference are we talking about for bullets-forward v. bullets rearward? Enough that a solider, a cop, or an armed citizen needs to worry about it? Or is it mainly a "gamer" consideration?

Seems like the most important thing is to stick to the same method. (Note the ad photo mentioned in the original post in which someone had placed two mags in the holder, one forward and one rearward, no doubt for the more eye-pleasing symmetry.)

[Kyle Reese]

Let's see a FAST Drill from Backward Mag Guy.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ToddG]

WHY?

There are multiple ways to do the bullets-to-the-rear reload. All of them end up being less efficient overall.

First, you can grab the mag by wrapping your hand around the tube or by putting your palm on the floorplate.

One commonly taught method is to be AR/AK-esque (or at least one common method for those rifles) and grab around the mag tube. It can work in the rifles because the middle of the mag tube doesn't go inside the gun. You can keep a consistent grip on the mag from beginning of reload to end. With a pistol mag, that's not the case. Starting with your hand wrapped around the mag tube means either pinching your fingers as you drive the mag into the gun or changing your grip halfway through the reload.

If you palm the floorplate, you have to choose where to put your index finger. Your choices are the bullet-front edge of the mag, the outward facing side of the mag, or the rear edge of the mag.

If you put your index finger along the front edge where the bullet noses are (the edge that is pointig toward your backside) then you are getting the same grip that front-facing-bullet people use. But you're having to reach farther behind yourself and torque your hand to get an ideal grip on the mag. The argument is that you don't have to change the orientation of the mag once it comes out of the pouch, and that's true. But most people find it far harder to get that proper initial grip. And by "most" I mean every single person who has put serious effort into both methods. (edited to add: with the normal bullets-forward reload technique, your other fingers can wrap around the outside facing side of the mag; with the bullets-backward reload technique your other fingers have to wrap in between your mag tube and the body which is one of the reasons it's harder, slower, and less comfortable to do)

If you run your index finger down the outward facing flat of the mag, the initial grip on the magazine is easy to achieve. But as you insert the magazine into the gun, your index finger can't move out of the way easily without pulling the mag in the same direction, which leads to pulling the mag away from the orientation of the magwell. This causes a lot of fumbles unless you're going very slowly. It can also result in you jamming your finger into the bottom of the magazine well.

If you put your index finger along the rear of the mag (the edge that is facing toward your centerline when you're running bullets-backward), you end up with just about the most complicated combination of all these problems simultaneously. I don't think I've ever seen anyone teach that technique, but it is often the way "bullets forward" people try to experiment with "bullets backward" that leads them to think "bullets backward" is even more screwed up than it is.

The greatest sin, in my experience, is running one mag one way and another the opposite way. I have seen so many people trying to load mags into the gun backward that I just expect it now anytime I see the forward/backward combo.

[rob_s]

Ever get confused between the two? Serious question. I don't shoot enough rifle to have thought about this. I keep the latter forward.

I do pistol mags bullets front, rifle mags bullets rear, and have never confused the two. But, when I was using a chest rig more often, I had the rifle mags bullets front on the belt because it resulted in the same hand placement and motion when inserting the mags into the gun regardless of which location held the magazine. When I had them bullets back I would sometimes bobble the reload.

[DNW]

How much of a time difference are we talking about for bullets-forward v. bullets rearward? Enough that a solider, a cop, or an armed citizen needs to worry about it? Or is it mainly a "gamer" consideration?

Seems like the most important thing is to stick to the same method. (Note the ad photo mentioned in the original post in which someone had placed two mags in the holder, one forward and one rearward, no doubt for the more eye-pleasing symmetry.)

From the LEO perspective, it absolutely matters. Gunfights start and finish in fractions of seconds. The average rate of fire in a police gunfight based on a couple studies is about 4-6 rounds per second. If you are serious about working and fighting with guns, you should train to eliminate wasted motions, and always seek the most efficient techniques wherever you can. All of these fractions of seconds add up.

I also runs bullets forward with my pistol mags and bullets back with my rifle mags. I use the index finger grip with pistol mags, and the beer-can grip with rifle mags. I used to use a sort of index finger grip with rifle mags as well, but I would tend to fumble the reloads a little more and switched to the beer-can grip. As Todd mentioned, the size and ergonomics of the rifle mag are different. Take a look at the relationships and distances between your hands when doing an index finger reload with a pistol mag vs. a rifle mag. For me, I have more control over the magazine entering the mag well with a rifle when I have more hand on the magazine.

[1slow]

I first saw the front mag bullets forward back mag bullets backward for pistol in the 1970s. If memory serves there are some pictures of Colonel Cooper with the 1 forward 1 back setup. I think the idea was 1 ready mag 1 reserve.
I have at least one old Milt Sparks 2 mag carrier for a 1911 .45 (model # IPD I think) that loads that way.
I have always found both pistol mags bullets forward to be less confusing and faster.

[KevinB]

Years ago - several noteworthy .Mil entities taught the beercan method for reloading rifle mags - with closed flap pocket and the older 'high cut' mag pouches -- to fish the mag out one almost ended in that grip.

However since the introduction of low cut mag pouches, open top kydex pouches etc - as well as a focus on getting guns back into the fight as fast as one can, the bullets forward to the centerline has come to be 'standard' due to the economy of motion, and resultant speed increase from that.

[ToddG]

Almost 50 posts on this subject and no pictures of HK mags loaded wrong. Impressive!

Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk

[John Hearne]

Just one data point to consider:
For years, I carried my AR magazines bullets forward. I liked it because it matched how I carried my pistol magazines.

Several years ago, I changed out all of my duty magazines with new ones and fresh magazine springs. Suddenly, I could not seat the magazines using a bullets forward grip. Using a beer can grip, I could generate sufficient force to get the magazine to lock into my AR and the magazines were loaded 28 in a 30.

[ST911]

How much of a time difference are we talking about for bullets-forward v. bullets rearward? Enough that a solider, a cop, or an armed citizen needs to worry about it? Or is it mainly a "gamer" consideration?

I put some cops on a timer and gathered some data on the effect of pistol spares carry methods and reload times. The differences are quantifiable, can be substantial, and are instructive. More importantly, certain reload methods were much more fumble prone than others, especially at lower skill levels and less frequent practice intervals. Best results in time and mag control were with vertical pouches, bullets forward (or out), open tops.

Lots of butt-hurt followed from those who value tradition and parades more than performance.

[HCM]

Years ago - several noteworthy .Mil entities taught the beercan method for reloading rifle mags - with closed flap pocket and the older 'high cut' mag pouches -- to fish the mag out one almost ended in that grip.

However since the introduction of low cut mag pouches, open top kydex pouches etc - as well as a focus on getting guns back into the fight as fast as one can, the bullets forward to the centerline has come to be 'standard' due to the economy of motion, and resultant speed increase from that.

Kevin, do you have a video or further info on how they are doing the rifle reloads from bullets forward?

[HCM]

This past quarter, one of our training exercises was an emergency reload drill. Officers would start with one round in the chamber and an empty Mag, when the targets faced they fire one round perform an emergency reload and fire two more. We started at 10 second facings and work down a second each facing. No one using anything other than support side bullets forward facing centerline made it beyond five or six seconds. Sample size was approximately 200 shooters using SIG 229 DAK 40s and Glock 9 mms.

[45dotACP]

Almost 50 posts on this subject and no pictures of HK mags loaded wrong. Impressive!

Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk
At first I thought I was being trolled. What with the wording of the title and all. :D

[SAWBONES]

Leather double magazines carriers were routinely made with one mag bullets-forward and the other bullets-backward in the '80s, cf., makers Milt Sparks and Bruce Nelson back then.

[Drang]

How much of a time difference are we talking about for bullets-forward v. bullets rearward? Enough that a solider, a cop, or an armed citizen needs to worry about it? Or is it mainly a "gamer" consideration?


From the LEO perspective, it absolutely matters. Gunfights start and finish in fractions of seconds. The average rate of fire in a police gunfight based on a couple studies is about 4-6 rounds per second. If you are serious about working and fighting with guns, you should train to eliminate wasted motions, and always seek the most efficient techniques wherever you can. All of these fractions of seconds add up.


I put some cops on a timer and gathered some data on the effect of pistol spares carry methods and reload times. The differences are quantifiable, can be substantial, and are instructive. More importantly, certain reload methods were much more fumble prone than others, especially at lower skill levels and less frequent practice intervals. Best results in time and mag control were with vertical pouches, bullets forward (or out), open tops.

Thank you gentlemen. I suppose the question I should have asked is, how much of a difference is there for one who does not practice?

Seems like the key phrase is "If you are serious about working and fighting with guns..."

When I wrote my original post, I was thinking in terms of shaves tenths or hundredths of a second off of scores. It is well known that most cops and most lawfully-armed citizens spend little time shooting, let alone practicing drills like reloads; things have certainly changed, but when I hung up my soldier suit 14 years ago, we certainly spent little time practicing such things either, even when I was a semi-HSLD Light Fighter. (It was regarded at the time to be the height of .mil geekery to insist that all M16 mags be carried bullets out.)

[KevinB]

I'd say it is even more important for those who do not practice - as its easily, smoother and less manipulations to be buggered up.

[abu fitna]

Years ago - several noteworthy .Mil entities taught the beercan method for reloading rifle mags - with closed flap pocket and the older 'high cut' mag pouches -- to fish the mag out one almost ended in that grip.

However since the introduction of low cut mag pouches, open top kydex pouches etc - as well as a focus on getting guns back into the fight as fast as one can, the bullets forward to the centerline has come to be 'standard' due to the economy of motion, and resultant speed increase from that.

I had to re-learn a bullet forward reload after making the transition to open top mag pouches well over a decade ago now (along with re-learning quite a few other things along the way); and I know I was at the further end of the re-training curve of my cohort (most folks made that transition quite a bit earlier, just took me a while to wind up someplace where I was going to be learning again versus just doing).

While I am / was certainly not noteworthy, the influences you speak to Kevin had definitely propagated around. But like many things of the era, changes were a good thing.

[KevinB]

My real only Pat Rogers quote is "we have learned more about gunfighting since 911 than in all the previous times combined" or words to that affect.

Stuff has been tried, changed and rehashed a number to times to give the best possible outcomes - and unlike previous conflicts - its been well documented and studied.

[rob_s]

Most 3-gunners seem to go bullets rear. Is there some because:gunfighter reason for bullets forward? Presumably the competitive shooters are doing whatever is faster...

[orionz06]

Most 3-gunners seem to go bullets rear. Is there some because:gunfighter reason for bullets forward? Presumably the competitive shooters are doing whatever is faster...

I'd bet money it has to do with how they grab their mag.

[1slow]

Most 3-gunners seem to go bullets rear. Is there some because:gunfighter reason for bullets forward? Presumably the competitive shooters are doing whatever is faster...

I would guess it has a lot to do with where the rifle mags are carried and wrist articulation.

[David Armstrong]

I first saw the front mag bullets forward back mag bullets backward for pistol in the 1970s. If memory serves there are some pictures of Colonel Cooper with the 1 forward 1 back setup. I think the idea was 1 ready mag 1 reserve.
That was the way I was taught in the military and initially for LE/non-military training. In fact, some of my mag holders from back then did not even work properly unless you put the front mag bullets forward and the rear mag bullets back. IIRC (and the memory is having to go back over 30 years, so I won't swear to it) the doctrine at the time was to use the rear mag for normal mag changes and to save the front mag mag for emergency reloads.

[drummer]

It sounds like I'm in the same boat as a lot of you guys. I've always carried rifle and pistol mags bullet foward for simplicity sake. I switched maybe a year and a half or two years ago to bullets rearward for my primary and secondary rifle mags only ( belt mounted). Because they are mounted behind my double pistol pouch, I found that it makes more sense to let the wrist articulate and use the beer can technique for my belt mounted rifle mags. I also find that the beer can technique gives me more control over the magazine and let's me do the push/pull thing with ARs if I need to (tac loads).

Further, I find the beer can technique easier with rock-in loading rifles such as an AK. Especially if doing a speed reload with a standard AK.

However, the spare rifle mags on my vest/pc are still pointed bullets foward because they are too high up for my wrist to fully articulate and in theory, they are only there to backfill my primary belt mounted pouches. As a LEO, if I've gone through the mag in the rifle and the ones on my belt and have to reload from my vest, it's a real bad day.

[rob_s]

It sounds like I'm in the same boat as a lot of you guys. I've always carried rifle and pistol mags bullet foward for simplicity sake. I switched maybe a year and a half or two years ago to bullets rearward for my primary and secondary rifle mags only ( belt mounted). Because they are mounted behind my double pistol pouch, I found that it makes more sense to let the wrist articulate and use the beer can technique for my belt mounted rifle mags. I also find that the beer can technique gives me more control over the magazine and let's me do the push/pull thing with ARs if I need to (tac loads).

Further, I find the beer can technique easier with rock-in loading rifles such as an AK. Especially if doing a speed reload with a standard AK.

However, the spare rifle mags on my vest/pc are still pointed bullets foward because they are too high up for my wrist to fully articulate and in theory, they are only there to backfill my primary belt mounted pouches. As a LEO, if I've gone through the mag in the rifle and the ones on my belt and have to reload from my vest, it's a real bad day.

That's more or less what I found, but in classes and matches I've found myself having to go for the chest-mounted mags, or having ONLY the chest-mounted mags when I am doing certain things. That's why I wanted uniformity in the way I had my magazines facing.

This past week I've been setting up my gamer belt with the Safariland ELS system. With that system, which hopefully will allow me to change out pouches for a stage/match-specific load, I'm so far finding the rifle mags easier to grab with them bullets-front but less interference with the pistol mag(s) when they are bullets-rear. In spending some time going through various gyrations, I can also see how some people's wrist and elby could bend differently than one another, and that coupled with the rotational location of the magazine as well as the height could make the front/rear issue one simply of preference and comfort, not some because:ninja or because:gamer kind of catch-all.

[LittleLebowski]

That's more or less what I found, but in classes and matches I've found myself having to go for the chest-mounted mags, or having ONLY the chest-mounted mags when I am doing certain things. That's why I wanted uniformity in the way I had my magazines facing.

This past week I've been setting up my gamer belt with the Safariland ELS system. With that system, which hopefully will allow me to change out pouches for a stage/match-specific load, I'm so far finding the rifle mags easier to grab with them bullets-front but less interference with the pistol mag(s) when they are bullets-rear. In spending some time going through various gyrations, I can also see how some people's wrist and elbow could bend differently than one another, and that coupled with the rotational location of the magazine as well as the height could make the front/rear issue one simply of preference and comfort, not some because:ninja or because:gamer kind of catch-all.

Looking forward to hearing more about your journey into gaming, I hope you write about it. It's a hell of a thing, seeing your score and name public.

[Mr_White]

Looking forward to hearing more about your journey into gaming, I hope you write about it. It's a hell of a thing, seeing your score and name public.

Yes, definitely. I thought rob_s has done a bunch of competition shooting though? Is that right, Rob? Maybe I am remembering wrong.

[rob_s]

Yes, definitely. I thought rob_s has done a bunch of competition shooting though? Is that right, Rob? Maybe I am remembering wrong.

Oh yeah, I've been shooting off and on for over a decade. IDPA, USPSA, founded my own carbine match that's been going for 7 or 8 years, etc. Just never for long enough to get "good" by competition standards. Then one day I realized that "fair to middlin" by competition standards is actually top <1% by just about any other standard, and decided to embrace the mediocrity.

What is probably new(ish) is my attitude that it's just gaming, that gaming doesn't hurt my because:ninja skills, and is more about entertainment than any kind of delusion that I need to do it "tactically".

[Mr_White]

Makes sense, thanks Rob.