2015 is the year to dump the .308?

[LittleLebowski]

Article: The 6.5mm solution (http://snipershide.scout.com/story/1496625-hello-2015-now-replace-your-308?s=541)

Article really needs editing but the data is solid.

[ranger]

Timely article - I want to spend more time on Precision Style Rifle this year.

[Chris Rhines]

Good as it goes, but I'd submit that 2010 was the year to dump the .308. The 6.5 Creedmore has been out for how long now?

[BobM]

Interesting. I've contemplated replacing our SRT 308 sniper rifles with something in the 260 range. I haven't explored what is available in ammo though.

[Failure2Stop]

2015 is the year to dump the bolt-action .308?

I would agree with my edit.
Personally, I have 0 need for a bolt .308.
Since all of my .308 use is built around a 16" or 14.5" semi-auto, in order to dump the cartridge I would need a superior 0-800 meter cartridge that feeds and shoots reliably from a 20+ round magazine, that gives equal or better performance in tissue, and for barrier defeat.
I think that the .260 and some other cartridges hold promise, but are hampered by minimum barrel length requirements to see the ballistic advantage and the lack of bulk high-density training/burner ammo and other specialty ammo natures.

[Odin Bravo One]

I guess I'll have to side with F2S (again).

[Sal Picante]

Helluva read... But... WTKitten to I know about rifles?!

;)

[LittleLebowski]

2015 is the year to dump the bolt-action .308?

I would agree with my edit.
Personally, I have 0 need for a bolt .308.
Since all of my .308 use is built around a 16" or 14.5" semi-auto, in order to dump the cartridge I would need a superior 0-800 meter cartridge that feeds and shoots reliably from a 20+ round magazine, that gives equal or better performance in tissue, and for barrier defeat.
I think that the .260 and some other cartridges hold promise, but are hampered by minimum barrel length requirements to see the ballistic advantage and the lack of bulk high-density training/burner ammo and other specialty ammo natures.

I'm very certain that the article was written from the perspective of the long range match shooter and those guys prefer bolt guns due to the extra bits of accuracy one can eke out from a bolt. From your perspective, what you posted makes absolute sense.

[Haraise]

The .308 definitely has some benefits... because of developed ammo in semi auto platforms. Almost all of the .308 drawbacks are irrelevant within 200m, which is the application used in carbines.

6.5 has benefits, but the ballistics of 7mm-08 are superior in energy, wounding potential, equal on wind and not far removed on drop (in well chosen ammo, like the Nosler ABLR as measured by Brian Litz for BC), so the article is a bit of a disservice.

[Chuck Haggard]

Pretty sure I won't be selling off my deer gun anytime soon.

[shane45]

F2S, I came to the same conclusion. I no longer own any bolt guns. I did this about 2 years ago. My "multi role" rifle is an SR25EMC with a USO 1-8 on it. my two precision Semi's are a Larue OBR in 308 with a 16" Barrel and a GA Precision in .260 rem with a 22" Barrel. All 3 are well below 1 moa rifles.

[SLG]

I've shot with Frank and know him a bit. Everything he said is spot on, and he absolutely knows his LR precision.

I also completely agree with F2S and Sean. But, different games, different guns, so to speak. To expand on F2S's idea, my version would be a 14.5 or 16" 308 semiauto, and for when I need more, a 300WM bolt gun. If you need more still, a 338 or a .50 are also options, but with a 230 Berger, the 300WM is not your granddad's magnum anymore.

[LittleLebowski]

The .308 definitely has some benefits... because of developed ammo in semi auto platforms. Almost all of the .308 drawbacks are irrelevant within 200m, which is the application used in carbines.

6.5 has benefits, but the ballistics of 7mm-08 are superior in energy, wounding potential, equal on wind and not far removed on drop (in well chosen ammo, like the Nosler ABLR as measured by Brian Litz for BC), so the article is a bit of a disservice.

Are you saying that the 7-08 is superior for hunting? That would make some sense to me as opposed to saying it's superior for competition as well.

[LittleLebowski]

Pretty sure I won't be selling off my deer gun anytime soon.

Same here :D

[Haraise]

Are you saying that the 7-08 is superior for hunting? That would make some sense to me as opposed to saying it's superior for competition as well.

Pretty sure my positives of energy and wounding don't count for much on paper. ;)

[LittleLebowski]

Pretty sure my positives of energy and wounding don't count for much on paper. ;)

I'm not the smartest guy :D

[MDS]

In my ignorance, I've been operating under the assumption that for practicing LR technique, the 308 seems like a good round to do high-volume practice. Price, availability, and performance that mimics the other "serious" calibers much better than 22lr, which is great practice when the range distance is limited. At this stage, I'm less worried about performance because there are so many gains yet to be had by improving the systems behind the rifle. I could be convinced to switch calibers if there was another round that was better for high-volume practice. (Not that I do nearly as much volume as I'd like to or should do...)

[SLG]

The 7-08 is "superior" to the 308 in about every regard, but not enough to make it worth switching to for competition. It was tried, and now that time is over. The 6's is where it is at now, no doubt. For hunting in NA, there is nothing you can't do cleanly with a 308 that you can do with a 7-08, so pick what you like.

MDS,

the 308 doesn't really "mimic" anything else much. It is a great round for learning on for a few reasons, but the 6.5 Creedmore is probably the smarter choice today, unless you have specific circumstances that dictate the 308. Like 10,000 rds of 175 GMM sitting around. Otherwise, the 6.5 probably makes more sense to start with.

fwiw, I'm pretty seriously into LR shooting and I mostly still use 308. Not because its the best choice though.

[Alpha Sierra]

The only reason my current bolt rifle is 308 is because I haven't gotten around to rebarreling it. When I do it will be a 260 Remington.

Yeah, 6 mm bla bla bla, yeah, 6.5 Creedmoor bla bla bla.... I've used the 260 R in NRA HP before, I have the tools, have the load data, and I know the performance. Not going to change.

As for dumping bolt actions for precision work, I'm not feeling the love.

[GJM]

Interesting info here. The .260, .300WM and .375H&H have morphed into my three rifles to cover all of AK and lower 48. Evaluating the 9.3x62 to possibly displace the .375.

[MDS]

fwiw, I'm pretty seriously into LR shooting and I mostly still use 308. Not because its the best choice though.

Well, as if I needed another reason to stick with 308, now I learn that it makes me just like SLG! More seriously, thanks for the pointer. I'll look into 6.5 ... but understand: when I say "LR" I mean anything over 300yd, usually after a hike in the mountains. :)

[LittleLebowski]

As for dumping bolt actions for precision work, I'm not feeling the love.

I simply can't afford the cost of a gas gun that may or may not outshoot my $1k (cost with aftermarket B&C stock, KRG bolt lift, Harris bipod, and a scope a generous friend gave me) Remmy 700. Plus, I like bolt guns.

[Failure2Stop]

As for dumping bolt actions for precision work, I'm not feeling the love.

I'm not arguing that.
My position is that unless I am trying to stack holes in the V-Ring, a semi auto will generally meet my needs. A 1.3 minute rifle is good for CNS hits out to 400 meters under good conditions. That, however, won't get you very far in F class.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Interesting. I've contemplated replacing our SRT 308 sniper rifles with something in the 260 range. I haven't explored what is available in ammo though.
The great .308 Match depression as me looking.

[BobM]

The great .308 Match depression as me looking.

Fortunately I stocked up a couple years ago.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm not arguing that.
My position is that unless I am trying to stack holes in the V-Ring, a semi auto will generally meet my needs. A 1.3 minute rifle is good for CNS hits out to 400 meters under good conditions. That, however, won't get you very far in F class.

Nor in the tactical long range competitions the author of the article wrote his article for.

[JV_]

Gas guns are much harder on brass too.

[Odin Bravo One]

Nor in the tactical long range competitions the author of the article wrote his article for.

Perhaps, but the 260's can't do shit against a .300 and someone who knows how to shoot it.

If we are talking about true long range, as in beyond 1k, the 6mm's and .308 both come up short.

Apparently I am missing the point.

[LittleLebowski]

Apparently I am missing the point.

I sincerely doubt that :D I need to look at the matches he hosts and helps run but it sounds like a very certain distance is set?

[Failure2Stop]

Nor in the tactical long range competitions the author of the article wrote his article for.
The problem is that those type of competitions don't have a strong regulating body like USPSA, High Power, F-Class, 3-GN, or even USCA. I drew the comparison between extremes of application with decent consistency.

[Failure2Stop]

I sincerely doubt that :D I need to look at the matches he hosts and helps run but it sounds like a very certain distance is set?
Generally a variety of conditions, from known distance, to competitor ranged, to unknown distance.

[JV_]

I need to look at the matches he hosts and helps run but it sounds like a very certain distance is set?

Go shoot the ASC, it's even local. I wouldn't go unless you're pretty good at mil'ing a target, no lasers allowed.

And don't bring a .308, you only get 2 shots per target. With a .308, the slightest error in mil'ing the far off targets, or ones that run from ridge top to ridge top (lots of odd winds), means you're more likely to miss.

[LittleLebowski]

Go shoot the ASC, it's even local. I wouldn't go unless you're pretty good at mil'ing a target, no lasers allowed.

And don't bring a .308, you only get 2 shots per target. With a .308, the slightest error in mil'ing the far off targets, or ones that run from ridge top to ridge top (lots of odd winds), means you're more likely to miss.

Basically, you're saying "don't go" :D

[LittleLebowski]

The problem is that those type of competitions don't have a strong regulating body like USPSA, High Power, F-Class, 3-GN, or even USCA. I drew the comparison between extremes of application with decent consistency.

I think that the author is working on that but ever since he sold the Hide and they went to the new forum, I don't know what's going on anymore.

[JV_]

Take a good scope, sling, and a 6mm/6.5mm and you'll have a really good time. Even when I bomb'd there, because my scope lost it's zero and I had no idea, I still had a good time. It wasn't until the last day where we had KD @ 300Y did I realize my zero was off. I took it to the range the day after and saw just how bad it was .... it lost its zero and wasn't even consistent in the movements.

It's run by very generous/good people. If they had one day events, I'd go back, but I can't see myself doing them again in the near future with my family obligations.

[MDS]

Basically, you're saying "don't go" :D

No, he's saying 308 is good for learning to call wind. ;)

[LittleLebowski]

No, he's saying 308 is good for learning to call wind. ;)

I'd still need a different scope, I have a BDC job right now. Works great for hunting and it's a fine scope but not really good for competition.

[Alpha Sierra]

I'm not arguing that.
My position is that unless I am trying to stack holes in the V-Ring, a semi auto will generally meet my needs. A 1.3 minute rifle is good for CNS hits out to 400 meters under good conditions. That, however, won't get you very far in F class.
Concur. It's all about one's critical self reflection of needs and gear that will meet it.

[SLG]

Perhaps, but the 260's can't do shit against a .300 and someone who knows how to shoot it.

If we are talking about true long range, as in beyond 1k, the 6mm's and .308 both come up short.

Apparently I am missing the point.

Galli is more into field sniper type competitions than known range stuff, but they generally don't go past 1200 yards or so, often not past 900 or 1000. At those ranges, nobody wants to put up with the recoil and short barrel life of the 300, so the 6/6.5's rule the roost. Real ELR matches are few and far between, though a 230gr/300Wm would be a pretty competitive entry point.

[DocGKR]

For punching paper at say 500-1000 or so, the 6.5C is a great option and what I would likely now choose should I go back in the those type of matches. With the right bullet, 6.5C will also work for any lower 48 hunting needs.

On the other hand, for real world LE and mil defensive use, there is a lot to be said for a 16" .308 semi-auto--so much so that I would also argue that the day of the .308 bolt gun is over for such pursuits. Save the bolt guns for .300 WM or .338. Keep in mind that there are a lot of readily available good barrier blind military and LE loads in .308, not so much for the 6.5/.260's.

[Alpha Sierra]

for real world LE and mil defensive use, there is a lot to be said for a 16" .308 semi-auto--so much so that I would also argue that the day of the .308 bolt gun is over for such pursuits. Save the bolt guns for .300 WM or .338.
When the USMC stops spending time and money on developing the M40, sure.....

[Haraise]

When the government stops dumping time and money on an outdated system kept in place through inertia, sure.....

Might be a while there.

[gtmtnbiker98]

When the USMC stops spending time and money on developing the M40, sure.....The buzz word was defensive, the M40 is offensive, backed by a spotter with an M4.

[SLG]

The buzz word was defensive, the M40 is offensive, backed by a spotter with an M4.

I'm not speaking for Doc, but that is not the issue. In either case, the bolt 308 is dead, its just that not everyone has gotten the word yet. Also, the day of the spotter is rapidly ending too. Anyone carrying a full weight 308 bolt gun is not carrying the most bang they can.

[JV_]

Anyone carrying a full weight 308 bolt gun is not carrying the most bang they can.

What's the full weight of an M40A5? 17 lbs?

[SLG]

JV,

Something like that. I know all the arguments for it, but that is just silly, imo. Is a bolt more accurate than a semi? Sure, but not in a meaningful way, given 308 ballistics. We are talking about fighting now, and not F class. Once you need more reach or power, then a bolt really makes sense.

[JV_]

but that is just silly, imo. Oh I agree. There's no way I want to lug around a 17# rifle, unless it's just to the firing line and to my car.

For my general use rifles, I never went more than Remington Varmint / Med Palma profile, and I really liked the lighter Manners stocks.

[Odin Bravo One]

I'm thinking 18" NEMO for my next semi-auto, semi-precision rifle.

[SLG]

I'm thinking 18" NEMO for my next semi-auto, semi-precision rifle.

Its been over a year since I've shot one, are they running reliably now? Great concept.

[JodyH]

When R.O'ing our unknown distance field precision matches (300Y-1200Y on 4" to man sized steel) I've observed that inaccurate rangefinding or wind calls account for far more misses than the accuracy differences between a bolt gun and a semi.
With both guns those who accurately ranged hit, those who missed their rangefinding missed the target as well.
We're talking moa and sub-moa targets at 500+ yards.

[Odin Bravo One]

Its been over a year since I've shot one, are they running reliably now? Great concept.

No. The ones they brought out this year ran fine......but..........

I'm waiting a bit longer still. Perhaps next year.

I have my 300 bolt gun........don't need a gas operated one.

SBR that sucker, toss a suppressor on it.........WIN!!!

[TGS]

Genuine question:

If 300WM is the needed caliber for long range, but 338 is better still.....why not just carry a 338? Is there an appreciable difference in some other qualities that make a 300WM a much more desirable caliber unless the ballistics of the 338 are absolutely required?

I ask because I figured the 300 and 338 weren't that far off from each other in the platform you'd be using.

[Odin Bravo One]

$$$$$

[SecondsCount]

I switched from 308 to 6.5x47 Lapua a couple years ago. Then my gunsmith talked me into necking the 6.5 down to 6x47L. Sending a 105 A-Max with a .252 G7 BC at over 3000 FPS keeps things supersonic out to 1500 yards. Comparatively, a .308 178 A-Max at 2650 will go subsonic around 1200 and will have less energy at 1000.

The downside is that my barrel life will be shorter than the 308 (2500 compared to 4000), but less dope, flatter trajectory, lower cost of bullets, and less recoil are all worth it. The Lapua brass isn't cheap but it lasts a long time. I have some cases that have been reloaded 12 times and guys I am shooting with are getting close to 20 from theirs.

[ldunnmobile]

This all goes back to application. If your shooting steel in competition then duh, there are better options than 308. If your using it in field applications, I would say it's still extremely viable considering cost, bullet selection, availability etc...

Sometimes a Camry is a better choice than the Mustang.

My bolt 308 isn't going anywhere and Im thinking about buying another.

[SecondsCount]

This all goes back to application. If your shooting steel in competition then duh, there are better options than 308. If your using it in field applications, I would say it's still extremely viable considering cost, bullet selection, availability etc...

Sometimes a Camry is a better choice than the Mustang.

My bolt 308 isn't going anywhere and Im thinking about buying another.

You make a valid point as I still own a 308. :)

The nice part about the 6mm setup for me is that I can hunt varmints with the 87 V-Max, or shoot larger game or steel at long range with the heavier bullets. My gunsmith's daughter shot her deer last year at 440 yards with a 6x47 Lapua. It was a precision heart shot that dropped the deer after a couple steps.

If you don't reload then you have to rely on what is available off the shelf and 308 really shines in that area.

[Odin Bravo One]

I was wrong in previous posts of this thread.

I still don't buy into one round to rule them all.....however, I would be lying if I said there was not a 6mm that made me take interest.

But it won't be in 2015. Spent all of that money to take the family on vacation to TX. Pretty sure I spent 2016, 2017, and 2018 6mm money too.

[SeriousStudent]

I was wrong in previous posts of this thread.

I still don't buy into one round to rule them all.....however, I would be lying if I said there was not a 6mm that made me take interest.

But it won't be in 2015. Spent all of that money to take the family on vacation to TX. Pretty sure I spent 2016, 2017, and 2018 6mm money too.

I hope we treated you well, and everyone had a good time.

[ToddG]

While I didn't shoot it, I did handle SLG's 6.5 carbine last weekend. A deer a couple miles away dropped dead the moment I picked it up. Coincidence?

[Odin Bravo One]

I hope we treated you well, and everyone had a good time.

We shall see...........trip starts tomorrow.

[SecondsCount]

While I didn't shoot it, I did handle SLG's 6.5 carbine last weekend. A deer a couple miles away dropped dead the moment I picked it up. Coincidence?

Yes. If you had said 357 Sig then maybe that would be a believable story. :cool:

[Failure2Stop]

When the USMC stops spending time and money on developing the M40, sure.....

They are going in a different direction.

[shane45]

I indeed believe you will see the military largely move to a semi for the 308 and the bolt gun for magnum applications. Likely the 338LM.

[rudy99]

This article just about summarizes the things a few of the top shooters in the Precision Rifle Series (http://www.precisionrifleseries.com/) told me about 3-4 years ago when I attended a local-ish match. At the time I was contemplating long-range competition shooting (like the PRS, not bench-rest, etc) and was told that nobody shoots .308 unless they have to and for the non-reloader 6.5 Creed is the way to go. This might be further confirmed today by this blog that does an equipment survey of the PRS shooters: http://precisionrifleblog.com/

My take-away from that experience was that the serious players have a lot of disposable income ($5k custom rifles, $2k scopes and $3k range-finders) and I just don't want to commit that much capital to something I wanted to just dabble in. The other thing I noticed was that it was difficult to find an off-the-shelf rifle in a caliber that was actually used in competition. At that time (and I think still today) Savage was the only rifle manufacture who had a heavy-barrel 6.5 creed. While I think Ruger, Savage and Weatherby all seem to make a 6.5 Creed option in a lightweight barrel.

With that said, I wonder why some of the 6-6.5mm calibers are not being sold by more manufacturers given the high BC and the potential to market it as a good long-range hunting option. Perhaps the bullets aren't optimal for terminal performance from a hunting perspective? I just don't know.

[shane45]

I know there's the exception here and there but off the shelf rifles don't really offer the features and accuracy a custom does. If the rifles isn't capitalizing on shooting an ultra accurate caliber, then it might as well just be 308. And frankly, if someone is dabbling, id say the 308 is just fine. I cant speak on the hunting topic but an educated guess would be that it would be a very narrow scope of people in the hunting world that might recognize the benefit. And to that end, how much benefit is it? Is hunting beyond 300 yds common? 500 Yds? I know there are those that do it, but Im thinking its a very small percent, who probably have custom rifles too!

[SecondsCount]

....
With that said, I wonder why some of the 6-6.5mm calibers are not being sold by more manufacturers given the high BC and the potential to market it as a good long-range hunting option. Perhaps the bullets aren't optimal for terminal performance from a hunting perspective? I just don't know.

Because most of the customers look at ammo availability and the long range hunters shoot 300 or 7mm Mag because they are not shooting that much ammo. I don't think I would really want a factory gun anyway.

My budget build is based on a Remington action, Broughton barrel, and a Vortex PST 6-24 FFP scope and it came at $1600. Eventually I would like to go all the way with a Deviant action, Manners stock, and Nightforce scope but for now I am having fun with this build.

[LittleLebowski]

I know there's the exception here and there but off the shelf rifles don't really offer the features and accuracy a custom does. If the rifles isn't capitalizing on shooting an ultra accurate caliber, then it might as well just be 308. And frankly, if someone is dabbling, id say the 308 is just fine. I cant speak on the hunting topic but an educated guess would be that it would be a very narrow scope of people in the hunting world that might recognize the benefit. And to that end, how much benefit is it? Is hunting beyond 300 yds common? 500 Yds? I know there are those that do it, but Im thinking its a very small percent, who probably have custom rifles too!

An AI can easily hang with the customs.

[SecondsCount]

I know there's the exception here and there but off the shelf rifles don't really offer the features and accuracy a custom does. If the rifles isn't capitalizing on shooting an ultra accurate caliber, then it might as well just be 308. And frankly, if someone is dabbling, id say the 308 is just fine. I cant speak on the hunting topic but an educated guess would be that it would be a very narrow scope of people in the hunting world that might recognize the benefit. And to that end, how much benefit is it? Is hunting beyond 300 yds common? 500 Yds? I know there are those that do it, but Im thinking its a very small percent, who probably have custom rifles too!

You are making a valid point. In the West we have a lot of open area so 300-500 yard shots are not uncommon but the reality is that the most hunters are not trained nor do they practice for those shots.


An AI can easily hang with the customs.

An AI costs as much as a custom. ;)

[Chris Rhines]

An AI costs as much as a custom. ;)

An AI is a custom. Just one with very limited options available. :)

[ldunnmobile]

AI's are definitely the hotness right now in precision bolts. I would love to have one of the new ATs.

[LittleLebowski]

An AI costs as much as a custom. ;)

I am well aware of that as my brother has an AI. I was directly responding to this: "off the shelf rifles don't really offer the features and accuracy a custom does."

Below is a group from my brother's factory AI AW using factory ammo.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/100_0013.jpg

[Alpha Sierra]

In the West we have a lot of open area so 300-500 yard shots are not uncommon

That's just not that far away in the realm of the type of competition shooting that we're talking about. 700 - 1000 yards is far.

[Alpha Sierra]

They are going in a different direction.
I'm curious, which way is that?

[JodyH]

That's just not that far away in the realm of the type of competition shooting that we're talking about. 700 - 1000 yards is far.
We're going out to 1500Y on standard USPSA target sized steel silhouettes in our precision matches next year.
We've started setting 6" steel carbine targets out to 500Y.

[Odin Bravo One]

I can bang an IPSC plate at 1500 with a little bit of effort and a .300 Win Mag..... Custom yes. But COTS available ammunition. I'm well below the class of shooters with whom I shoot long range with, and even shooting a Tubb's 2000 and 6mmXC with hand crafted, ridiculous attention to detail, and all of the higher math details built into the $4k glass....... It is not my gun, or lack of custom ammo that prevents routinely dinging beyond my max "on demand" range.

It is me.

Fact is, very very few shooters will benefit from wrapping themselves up in a $5-8k or more rifle set up in a caliber that is not COTS. I don't shoot F Class or precision rifle/tactical matches, but see a handful of long range shooters once in awhile. Most of whom are shooting custom rifles with top end optics and sub-minute ammo at a minimum. The performance of the majority does not lead me to believe it is the caliber that is making the difference in whether or not they have the ability to hit targets at extended ranges either.

I see zero confirmation groups in the 1/2-3/4 minute range, at mid-range start seeing the uncalled, off center hits, and by the time we get into ranges where a .308 struggles to keep up with the new kids on the block, the rifle and caliber are capable of keeping up 70-80% of the time. Those that are not keeping up, it's not the caliber or the zillion dollar set up that is preventing them from being competitive with the new hotness.

It is the shooter. And these are guys I would consider "good marksmen". Well above the average rifle shooters.

Exceptional shooters can stretch the legs of the .308 & .300 WM, and would benefit from upgrading to something where caliber performance matches or exceeds their abilities. But there is a reason we see the same names at the top of the score cards match after match, year after year. They didn't climb to the top because of technology. They climbed to the top on the old .30 calibers and when the guns and ammo could not match their abilities, set off in search of tech that would push them into new levels of performance. It wasn't the other way around.

[JodyH]

Wind and range calls are the determining factor in our matches (known target size, unknown distance, field positions). .308 is much less forgiving of a missed call than some of the flatter shooting calibers.

[Failure2Stop]

Wind and range calls are the determining factor in our matches (known target size, unknown distance, field positions). .308 is much less forgiving of a missed call than some of the flatter shooting calibers.

I was talking with some guys from a unit that had (at the time of the discussion) recently adopted .338 LM, discussing engagement ranges, ID ranges, and the effect on qualifying students during the precision marksmanship portion of their school.
The thing that most stuck with me was this (not verbatim) statement:
"It is't that we are seeing the same drop at 1k as we normally see at 600, but rather that the drop and wind at 600 is half as much as the 7.62. Getting hits at 1500 is cool and all, but guaranteed success at 600 is where we need these guys to be."

Shooting long range is fun, but outside of very specialized units, with impressive training budgets, there is a significant difference in application.

[JodyH]

The LE snipers that shoot our matches do it for the confidence boost. That's probably the biggest benefit to making difficult shots at extreme ranges. That and it reinforces the need for accurate range and wind data.

[Jay Cunningham]

The LE snipers that shoot our matches do it for the confidence boost. That's probably the biggest benefit to making difficult shots at extreme ranges.

There's a lot to be said for shooting pistols at long range too, and for the same reason.

[shane45]

Sean M, I agree with your statements thoroughly.
F2S, in my view that is the point of the 6.5's, thus why they get called the cheater cartridge :)
LL indeed I consider the AI in the Custom category as I do the FN Ballista etc etc. Hell its even got a Bartlain barrel! WHen I say off the shelf Im talking mass production, Remy 700, Savage 110, etc etc in line with the response to the post about hunting level low cost rifles.

[TGS]

The LE snipers that shoot our matches do it for the confidence boost. That's probably the biggest benefit to making difficult shots at extreme ranges. That and it reinforces the need for accurate range and wind data.

Quick question:

What's the distance that LE are planning/training to use their marksmen? I was always under the impression that it's just about always 100 yards, max. Do you guys know of LE in some specific role or region that are going to 400, 600, or even longer?

[JodyH]

The guys who work the desert border areas are often monitoring drug smugglers from 500+ yards and pulling overwatch on apprehension teams from extended ranges.
If you're 500Y from where the action is happening and the bad guys have their own overwatch 300Y behind them you're easily into extended shooting distances.

[Surf]

Not a competition guy, but enjoy shooting long range stuff and do it from time to time with a bunch of the bench rest guys and a few F Classers, so I will stick to what I know. I have access to .308 so it isn't going anywhere. I am an old school bolt gun guy and honestly if I am going for extreme precision, I just like my bolt rifles. I prefer my .308 bolts in about an 18"-18.5" range as I didn't see much appreciable change in dope in a 168 or 175 comparatively (load dependant) in a longer barrel until about 500 yards. Even at around 1K, dialing another 8 or so mins (adjustment available) is not a big deal when you're dialing that much dope anyway. Realistically if I were going for consistent distances past 600-800 for critical use I would opt for my 300wm.

The ballistic / environmental challenge is where it lies and I like shooting .308 out to 1000-1200 in training because you learn a lot of valuable information. Just like I enjoy shooting pistols at long distance, I think the longer distances stuff helps greatly in that ranging and wind calls need to be right on the money. It also makes the up close stuff, stupid simple. Heck I like shooting 5.56 out to 1000.

Now I wholeheartedly agree in the 300wm comments and find the same plus that F2S mentions. I like my bolt Rem300wm, not just due to the distances that I can shoot, but with how flat it shoots, with that punch, anything within 600 yards requires minimal adjustment and is less affected by elements. Not much need to dial anything at these distances if you didn't have the time. Easier or more so, less of a mil hold provides less room for error and more margin for success and be highly effective, especially if you only need to be torso accurate to be effective. I can see how that is a big plus on a broader scale for effectiveness for the military.

If I had a lot of targets and / or needed to put out a lot of fire without the concern for extreme precision, 16"-18" in my gas 308's do the job very nicely. Actually my gas .308's and many out there now are not the gas guns of yesterday and are highly accurate. My pig of a Noveske N6 (ok she is 14lbs dressed) is still .5 MOA all day long.

As for the LE side of things, yes most distances are not nearly as far as what you would see overseas and the norm average would more likely be in that 100 yard or less range, but as mentioned that is depending on your locale or specific situation. I have deployed at 268 yards in an urban (high rise) area. I have held overwatch on several occasions for green harvest situations up to 400 or so yards. I have also done overwatch for man hunts in areas that have stretched out to around 600 or so. While perhaps not as common but I can potentially envision many realistic situations that call for longer distances in LE, even though that may not be the norm. Bottom line and IMO a good shooter should train and be able to shoot out to long distances. It builds skill and confidence that makes everything up close simple again with high levels of confidence. If you don't train at distance and understand not just your dope but how to read conditions, your confidence is in the toilet and your skills may not be what they should be. Field craft considerations aside and just pure shooting, I can put any of our non-trained long gun guys behind my rifle and with 5 mins of instruction they can run the rifle efficiently and easily keep 1moa, if not less, all day long at 100 yards. But the field craft, observational skills and overall knowledge required to perform the job is the difference. As for pure trigger pulling, when we stretch distance a bit, marksmanship skills is where we start seeing the big difference in a good shooter and a great shooter. Understanding how to measure distance and reading the conditions comes with training and experience and I will add natural ability.

[SecondsCount]

I am well aware of that as my brother has an AI. I was directly responding to this: "off the shelf rifles don't really offer the features and accuracy a custom does."

Below is a group from my brother's factory AI AW using factory ammo.

Which is why there was a winky at the end of my statement. Is your brother still offering training classes?


That's just not that far away in the realm of the type of competition shooting that we're talking about. 700 - 1000 yards is far.

I am sorry if I was unclear, I was speaking of the average hunter which is the largest purchaser of rifles, not the competition shooters.

Defining far really depends on the target that you are shooting and the gun you are using. I have a 5" steel circle at 188 yards that I use to practice with a 22LR and while that would be a chipshot for my AR-15, the 22LR makes it nice and difficult on windy days. Engaging reduced IPSC targets at 600 is for the AR and depending on the wind and the ammo, can also be a challenge but is easy with the 6x47 where things really only begin to get difficult at 1000.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

The guys who work the desert border areas are often monitoring drug smugglers from 500+ yards and pulling overwatch on apprehension teams from extended ranges.
If you're 500Y from where the action is happening and the bad guys have their own overwatch 300Y behind them you're easily into extended shooting distances.

Jesus, I am going to be way more careful in eastern Washington state from now on.

[Failure2Stop]

The LE snipers that shoot our matches do it for the confidence boost. That's probably the biggest benefit to making difficult shots at extreme ranges. That and it reinforces the need for accurate range and wind data.

Absolutely agreed.
I shoot my 16" 7.62 out to 1200 whenever I can, however, I don't realistically see myself using that setup for anything that I need to guarantee a first round hit outside of a 1.5 MOA target in steady wind conditions (usually a solid center torso out to 800m, or a head out to 350).

[Odin Bravo One]

The guys who work the desert border areas are often monitoring drug smugglers from 500+ yards and pulling overwatch on apprehension teams from extended ranges.
If you're 500Y from where the action is happening and the bad guys have their own overwatch 300Y behind them you're easily into extended shooting distances.

Can you give us an example of an actual engagement? I ask because some of my long range shooting buddies live in the region, work in the field, and I have never heard this before.

[Chuck Haggard]

I recall a manhunt awhile back in the SW where the bad guy was engaging the trackers at extended range, like 400 yards IIRC. The bad guy was using a .308 loaded with one of the big game premium rounds, like the Barnes or similar, I forget which brand, but the shots were from far enough out that one of the coppers that was shot got hit with a bullet going too slow to expand. I'll try and find the story.

[Peally]

Crazier things have happened, I believe it. Doesn't hurt to get into long range shooting even if it's just for kicks, it's still another tool in the toolbox.

[JodyH]

Can you give us an example of an actual engagement? I ask because some of my long range shooting buddies live in the region, work in the field, and I have never heard this before.
I haven't heard of any actual shootings. I have heard them talk about glassing and ranging potential targets at long ranges.

[Odin Bravo One]

If any come up, I'd love to know.

Thanks.

[223AI]

I'm late to the game on this, but I've been loading ammo for the Vegas Precision Rifle Match this weekend. The fact of the matter is that I'll likely not see any .308's this weekend at the match, or at any other PRS matches that I shoot this year. There will be a good mix of 6.5 and 6mm's, and almost every single shooter will be running a bolt gun. The wind difference, followed closely by the recoil difference is significant.

Set up properly, a bolt gun can run just fine with a gas gun in a competition setting. At Rifles Only, we shoot a short timed drill called Moving Chaos, which has you shoot two at the 400 yard mover, two at a 210 yard 1 MOA target, two at a 350 yard 1.5 moa target, 2 at a 550 yard target, and 2 more at the mover....if you hit on the first round, then move on to the next target. The time constraints have it to where you are better of holding, rather than dialing, unless you really know what you are doing with the scope and stress management. Gas gunners run it just as fast and/or slow as the bolt gun guys. Same thing can be said on the mover stages and stages with movement from position to position.

The 308 is very clearly outclassed by just about everything 6.5/6mm...from start to finish. Heck, even my .223 bolt gun, sending pointed 82 bergers at 2900, outclasses my 308's in every way except downrange energy.

[shane45]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZcNAq8eOGo

[223AI]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ApXBHfUWQy0#t=262

Here is a video of me running the same stage during a competition course at Rifles Only. It should start at 4:22 into the video. I'm shooting pointed 82 Bergers at 2900 out of a .223 with a Brux 6.5 twist barrel, and a stiller action. I usually dial that stage, but holding worked fine too...

[rob_s]

Fact is, very very few shooters will benefit from wrapping themselves up in a $5-8k or more rifle set up in a caliber that is not COTS.
I see zero confirmation groups in the 1/2-3/4 minute range, at mid-range start seeing the uncalled, off center hits, and by the time we get into ranges where a .308 struggles to keep up with the new kids on the block, the rifle and caliber are capable of keeping up 70-80% of the time. Those that are not keeping up, it's not the caliber or the zillion dollar set up that is preventing them from being competitive with the new hotness.
Exceptional shooters can stretch the legs of the .308 & .300 WM, and would benefit from upgrading to something where caliber performance matches or exceeds their abilities. But there is a reason we see the same names at the top of the score cards match after match, year after year. They didn't climb to the top because of technology. They climbed to the top on the old .30 calibers and when the guns and ammo could not match their abilities, set off in search of tech that would push them into new levels of performance. It wasn't the other way around.

So, then, is the original premise of the thread, that this is the year to dump the .308, really accurate for more than the top 1% of shooters?

[LittleLebowski]

I'm late to the game on this, but I've been loading ammo for the Vegas Precision Rifle Match this weekend. The fact of the matter is that I'll likely not see any .308's this weekend at the match, or at any other PRS matches that I shoot this year. There will be a good mix of 6.5 and 6mm's, and almost every single shooter will be running a bolt gun. The wind difference, followed closely by the recoil difference is significant.

Set up properly, a bolt gun can run just fine with a gas gun in a competition setting. At Rifles Only, we shoot a short timed drill called Moving Chaos, which has you shoot two at the 400 yard mover, two at a 210 yard 1 MOA target, two at a 350 yard 1.5 moa target, 2 at a 550 yard target, and 2 more at the mover....if you hit on the first round, then move on to the next target. The time constraints have it to where you are better of holding, rather than dialing, unless you really know what you are doing with the scope and stress management. Gas gunners run it just as fast and/or slow as the bolt gun guys. Same thing can be said on the mover stages and stages with movement from position to position.

The 308 is very clearly outclassed by just about everything 6.5/6mm...from start to finish. Heck, even my .223 bolt gun, sending pointed 82 bergers at 2900, outclasses my 308's in every way except downrange energy.

Excellent post, thank you for sharing, and welcome to the forum.

[Mitch]

How long is the barrel on your 223? 2900 for an 82 gr bullet is pretty impressive. What kind of brass do you use, and how many loads is it good for?

[223AI]

How long is the barrel on your 223? 2900 for an 82 gr bullet is pretty impressive. What kind of brass do you use, and how many loads is it good for?

Thanks! That barrel was 26" plus the can (a cheapie C3 Defense). They key to that velocity is to have an excellent gunsmith (Aaron Roberts at Roberts Precision Rifles), have the barrel throated for the long bullet, to use good brass ( I used virgin lake city in that barrel), and use 8208XBR. Varget and 4895 almost got me there, but 8208 was like magic. Plus it meters like water, and is very temperature stable.

I think I had 9-10 firings on the brass before I tossed it for looser primer pockets than I like. I switched to Lapua brass on my new barrel, and have 4 firings so far with no issues.

[Odin Bravo One]

I'm late to the game on this, but I've been loading ammo for the Vegas Precision Rifle Match this weekend. The fact of the matter is that I'll likely not see any .308's this weekend at the match, or at any other PRS matches that I shoot this year. There will be a good mix of 6.5 and 6mm's, and almost every single shooter will be running a bolt gun. The wind difference, followed closely by the recoil difference is significant.

Set up properly, a bolt gun can run just fine with a gas gun in a competition setting. At Rifles Only, we shoot a short timed drill called Moving Chaos, which has you shoot two at the 400 yard mover, two at a 210 yard 1 MOA target, two at a 350 yard 1.5 moa target, 2 at a 550 yard target, and 2 more at the mover....if you hit on the first round, then move on to the next target. The time constraints have it to where you are better of holding, rather than dialing, unless you really know what you are doing with the scope and stress management. Gas gunners run it just as fast and/or slow as the bolt gun guys. Same thing can be said on the mover stages and stages with movement from position to position.

The 308 is very clearly outclassed by just about everything 6.5/6mm...from start to finish. Heck, even my .223 bolt gun, sending pointed 82 bergers at 2900, outclasses my 308's in every way except downrange energy.

My perspective and purpose is not for matches......... I get it that for most people it is, and that is certainly fine. But there is a big difference between snaps and movers on a range, and snaps and movers that are human.

[223AI]

My perspective and purpose is not for matches......... I get it that for most people it is, and that is certainly fine. But there is a big difference between snaps and movers on a range, and snaps and movers that are human.

I'd agree with you, but I've thankfully never been on a two way range to offer any insight in that regard. I wholeheartedly defer to your expertise on that subject.

[SecondsCount]

Thanks! That barrel was 26" plus the can (a cheapie C3 Defense). They key to that velocity is to have an excellent gunsmith (Aaron Roberts at Roberts Precision Rifles), have the barrel throated for the long bullet, to use good brass ( I used virgin lake city in that barrel), and use 8208XBR. Varget and 4895 almost got me there, but 8208 was like magic. Plus it meters like water, and is very temperature stable.

I think I had 9-10 firings on the brass before I tossed it for looser primer pockets than I like. I switched to Lapua brass on my new barrel, and have 4 firings so far with no issues.

Sounds like a cool setup. Is this 223 or 223AI? Do the heavy bullets cause a shorter barrel life?

Do you find Lapua 223 brass to have thicker necks and do you do anything in your reloading to compensate for it? The recent batch that I have seems to be at least .001" thicker and was wondering if I should change my sizing bushing to compensate for it. Do you anneal your brass periodically?

[Mitch]

Thanks! That barrel was 26" plus the can (a cheapie C3 Defense). They key to that velocity is to have an excellent gunsmith (Aaron Roberts at Roberts Precision Rifles), have the barrel throated for the long bullet, to use good brass ( I used virgin lake city in that barrel), and use 8208XBR. Varget and 4895 almost got me there, but 8208 was like magic. Plus it meters like water, and is very temperature stable.

I think I had 9-10 firings on the brass before I tossed it for looser primer pockets than I like. I switched to Lapua brass on my new barrel, and have 4 firings so far with no issues.

Very interesting, thanks for the reply.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

I haven't had the chance to read the whole thread, so I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this...

I've been asking our Remington reps for years to do a factory heavy barrel 700 in 260 with a twist rate that will stabilize the heavy, long high BC bullets. Apparently, someone was listening.

At a recent trade show, a little birdie told me that Remington will soon be offering a 26" 1-8 twist 700 SPS Varmint in 260 as well as a distributor exclusive 700 SS, long-action, 5R, 1-8.25 twist, threaded 260 in an HS stock.

[Alpha Sierra]

At a recent trade show, a little birdie told me that Remington will soon be offering a 26" 1-8 twist 700 SPS Varmint in 260 as well as a distributor exclusive 700 SS, long-action, 5R, 1-8.25 twist, threaded 260 in an HS stock.

They all will be gone as soon as word spreads on SH.

[Crews]

I am getting a facelift on my hunting rifle... An already very capable and useful FN in .308. New stock, bottom metal and trigger, but more importantly.... A shorter, heavier profile barrel. The gunsmith is desperately trying to convince me to switch over to 6.5C for this short barrel 800 yard rifle. It's a difficult decision to make!

[SecondsCount]

I am getting a facelift on my hunting rifle... An already very capable and useful FN in .308. New stock, bottom metal and trigger, but more importantly.... A shorter, heavier profile barrel. The gunsmith is desperately trying to convince me to switch over to 6.5C for this short barrel 800 yard rifle. It's a difficult decision to make!

Have you had issues making 800 yard shots with your 308?

[Haraise]

Have you had issues making 800 yard shots with your 308?

*cough* http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/25/how-much-does-cartridge-matter/

[Crews]

Have you had issues making 800 yard shots with your 308?

I've never made a shot at 800 yards. Up until recently, I have only ever used a rifle for hunting scenarios, out to 500 yards. I'd like to expand my abilities and be proficient a little bit further out. Could 308 do it? Absolutely! Would 6.5 maybe offer a few slight advantages? Probably. Just weighing my options for a practical type hunting rifle.

[LittleLebowski]

I've never made a shot at 800 yards. Up until recently, I have only ever used a rifle for hunting scenarios, out to 500 yards. I'd like to expand my abilities and be proficient a little bit further out. Could 308 do it? Absolutely! Would 6.5 maybe offer a few slight advantages? Probably. Just weighing my options for a practical type hunting rifle.

The 6.5 would make it easier for certain.

[JV_]

Especially if there's some wind, or your ranging ability is lacking.

[SecondsCount]

*cough* http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/0...tridge-matter/

No need to question my response, I am a 308, 6.5, and 6mm shooter. :cool:


I've never made a shot at 800 yards. Up until recently, I have only ever used a rifle for hunting scenarios, out to 500 yards. I'd like to expand my abilities and be proficient a little bit further out. Could 308 do it? Absolutely! Would 6.5 maybe offer a few slight advantages? Probably. Just weighing my options for a practical type hunting rifle.

You will have an advantage with the 6.5C but do you have the training and practice to make the shot happen?

Unless you are waist deep in 308 ammo or reloading components, I would make the switch, and then spend as much time and ammo as possible learning the new caliber.

[Crews]

No need to question my response, I am a 308, 6.5, and 6mm shooter. :cool:



You will have an advantage with the 6.5C but do you have the training and practice to make the shot happen?

Unless you are waist deep in 308 ammo or reloading components, I would make the switch, and then spend as much time and ammo as possible learning the new caliber.

No, I absolutely do not have the training, and I am not stockpiled in .308. I really am starting from scratch. My only real concern is ammo availability... I'd like to stick to standard stuff because I am not a reloader. However, I would guess that in times of crisis, 6.5C ammo is probably more available off the shelf.

[DocGKR]

I suspect .260 Rem is going to become quite popular with better availability in the relatively near future.

[Failure2Stop]

I suspect .260 Rem is going to become quite popular with better availability in the relatively near future.

Heh.
I an inclined to agree.

[JM Campbell]

I suspect .260 Rem is going to become quite popular with better availability in the relatively near future.

What's the scoop on this? Benefits over 6.5c? I do not know anything about this round, if you find the time please school me/pf on it at your convenience of course.


I suspect .260 Rem is going to become quite popular with better availability in the relatively near future.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

What's the scoop on this? Benefits over 6.5c? I do not know anything about this round, if you find the time please school me/pf on it at your convenience of course.

I'm not Doc, but here's the situation as I understand it:

From it's inception, Hornady has offered 6.5 Creed in high-quality, (relatively) inexpensive match-grade ammunition. Match-grade .260 on the other hand, has pretty much been a handloader's proposition until relatively recently. Even then, finding high-quality brass was an issue. Federal is now offering .260 in it's Gold Medal Match line at a reasonable price and Lapua is offering .260 brass. I suspect that other manufacturers will follow suit as the .260 increases in popularity.

Here's a link that pretty well outlines the difference between the popular short-action 6.5 cal rounds:

http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/

[shane45]

I agree. I don't reload for rifle, yet anyway. .260 has been a pain to get. And when you can, its expensive! Contrast that with price and availability of 6.5CM and Im ready to get my chamber recut!

[HCM]

Some new developments on the 6.5 Creedmore front.

Ruger has a new precision rifle in 6.5C - http://www.scout.com/military/snipers-hide/story/1564384-the-ruger-precision-rifle-6-5-cm#.ValpkptlPPc.facebook

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/07/18/ruger-precision-rifle-high-end-almost-ar/

And now Howa is releasing a rifle in 6.5C. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/07/08/howa-rifles-in-6-5-creedmoor/