Two ND's in a year

[HopetonBrown]

There's a YouTuber named Sootch00 who is very popular with the enthusiasts and does a bunch of gun review type videos. I watched a G-Code one once but never paid attention to anything further because the gun handling exhibited didn't inspire confidence. Someone recently linked to this video on another forum, where he shows 2 ND's (2,36 and just the aftermath of another at 4,52) and says they happened in the past year. I don't want to seem like I'm throwing stones/glass houses stuff, but that seems like a lot. And I'm doubtful this guy is taking a class or shooting a match every weekend.

Should he get a pat on the back for making this video so others can learn from his mistakes, or derided for his frequent lapses in gun safety?

http://youtu.be/sEgGiTVLUuM?t=2m36s

[Lomshek]

Should he get a pat on the back for making this video so others can learn from his mistakes, or derided for his frequent lapses in gun safety?

Maybe a little of both? I'm not gonna beat the guy up too much as he could have never shown those two incidences but chose to publicize his mistakes as a warning so kudos for that. Hope he's more careful in the future.

[GardoneVT]

There's a YouTuber named Sootch00 who is very popular with the enthusiasts and does a bunch of gun review type videos. I watched a G-Code one once but never paid attention to anything further because the gun handling exhibited didn't inspire confidence. Someone recently linked to this video on another forum, where he shows 2 ND's (2,36 and just the aftermath of another at 4,52) and says they happened in the past year. I don't want to seem like I'm throwing stones/glass houses stuff, but that seems like a lot. And I'm doubtful this guy is taking a class or shooting a match every weekend.

Should he get a pat on the back for making this video so others can learn from his mistakes, or derided for his frequent lapses in gun safety?

http://youtu.be/sEgGiTVLUuM?t=2m36s

Im certain the "edit" menu has a part in why there arent more "Tex Grebner :The SERPA!" sequel videos.

[ReverendMeat]

It takes some guts to upload a video like that. He doesn't get a pass for the NDs but he should be commended for letting the rest of us learn from his mistakes when it'd be far easier to pretend it never happened.

[Trooper224]

I've seen some people we'd all consider highly experienced and qualified do some pretty stupid things with firearms, if only from a moments lack of attention. I'll admit I've been on that list a couple of times over the years. If you handle weapons enough the law of averages will dictate that sooner or later it will happen. I don't consider Sootch to be a particularly knowledgeable SESM (Semi-Expert of the Subject Matter) as I've never seen one of his videos that wasn't full of factual errors. On the other hand, kudos to him for turning his Private Pyle moments into a PSA.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Don't flame me too much, but most folks out there shouldn't have guns, cars, tools, reproductive organs or oxygen. He's just a verification.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

No one can maintain perfect attention under all conditions. Even the best can falter at times. I've seen very high end folks make a mistake.

It happens in every performance domain. Why should gun usage be different?

[TGS]

A zero defect mentality (note: different than zero tolerance) is counterproductive to learning, and creates a feeling of superiority among those who have yet to make a mistake. Kinda similar mechanism, in my opinion, that people use to make pretend that Nazis or Soviets were incredibly evil beyond belief on a fundamental level we are not capable of....and so we can never have a genocide like them.

I despise those sorts of social stigmas.

Similarly, in technical diving the majority of us have a mentality that it's not if you get bent, it's a matter of when. In anything you do in life, regardless of doing everything right, you can still have problems. This is why we have multiple redundant safety rules.

He may have not been following them, but he should absolutely NOT be accosted for admitting to his mistakes and trying to use them to enlighten others. He's not exactly a saint or doing any groundbreaking research as techniques to safe gun handling are well known and easily accessible to those willing to learn.....but going back to my sentiments on detriments to learning, he shouldn't be punished for "nutting up."

[hufnagel]

his description on the first perfectly demonstrated how amazingly easy it is to have SHTF. Middle of a review, has to run an errand, tanks back up the review gun, comes home, drops mag and forgets to clear the chamber. I wouldn't personally beat the guy up too bad over it, for the simple fact that it could happen to any of us. His brain probably hadn't switched fully back into "review" mode and since it wasn't the start of the review but in the middle, didn't perform what I expect would be his normal "check" procedures for a review. I want to say it was Caleb that wrote about this exact type of thing years back when talking about dry fire practice: if you get interrupted for some reason, take a couple moments to get your head back in the right frame of mind, redo all your safety steps, then go on with your practice. I think it follows along with adherence to Rule #1... all guns are always loaded. If you put down a gun you've been holding, even if you KNOW it was unloaded when you put it down, you check it again for the simple fact it was out of your direct control for some period of time.

I agree with TGS: it's pretty much a matter of WHEN, not IF, something goes wrong.

Finally, I think the correct response is a handshake for manning up and showing what can happen, so as to help remind the rest of us to BE CAREFUL... and a friendly slap upside the head to remind HIM to not do it again. :)

[JV_]

A zero defect mentality (note: different than zero tolerance) is counterproductive to learning, and creates a feeling of superiority among those who have yet to make a mistake.

A friend of mine works in IT at a big GSE. If they make 3 mistakes that impact operations, they're gone. It's a great way to freeze all infrastructure in time, and make everyone scared to make any changes, even if it's good for the organization.

[GardoneVT]

A friend of mine works in IT at a big GSE. If they make 3 mistakes that impact operations, they're gone. It's a great way to freeze all infrastructure in time, and make everyone scared to make any changes, even if it's good for the organization.

Or worse, the other consequence-folks screw up and then become motivated to lie about it. Good luck learning from a mistake that's not even acknowledged.

[JV_]

There's very little room to lie because of the monitoring systems in place. Every key click is recorded, so is your display.

[GardoneVT]

There's very little room to lie because of the monitoring systems in place. Every key click is recorded, so is your display.

In your specific instance and in many others, true. I was referring to negligent discharges specifically though.Its a safe wager most of the DerpTube folks making vids have at least as many as Sootch if not more. Not long ago someone here freeze-framed a "Range Time" vid where the channel uploader clearly had his finger on the trigger before engaging the target.

[TGS]

Or worse, the other consequence-folks screw up and then become motivated to lie about it. Good luck learning from a mistake that's not even acknowledged.

Absolutely.

Root-cause analysis is lacking in most industries/communities. The result is people getting punished instead of problems getting fixed, and the vicious cycle you mention.

[JohnO]

If you handle weapons enough the law of averages will dictate that sooner or later it will happen.

I would not consider that a factually correct statement. I understand the premise but in actuality statistics don't work that way.

Example: If it is a proven fact that for every ten thousand times a gun is handled there is One Negligent Discharge does not mean that sometime between now and your 10,000th time you will have a ND. The statistical distribution of outcomes among society does not reflect the distribution of outcomes associated with an individual.

It bothers me when I hear people say it is only a matter of time before I, you or they have X happen because statistics say so.

[Trooper224]

I would not consider that a factually correct statement. I understand the premise but in actuality statistics don't work that way.

Example: If it is a proven fact that for every ten thousand times a gun is handled there is One Negligent Discharge does not mean that sometime between now and your 10,000th time you will have a ND. The statistical distribution of outcomes among society does not reflect the distribution of outcomes associated with an individual.

It bothers me when I hear people say it is only a matter of time before I, you or they have X happen because statistics say so.

Okay

[JodyH]

Ive heard the same thing about riding a motorcycle and wrecks being inevitable.
Bullshit.

[Wheeler]

I believe Cooper was credited with saying "there are two types of gun owners, those that have had and ND and those that are going to have an ND." I never thought I'd have one until I did. That's why we follow the 4 Rules.

[Haraise]

Ive heard the same thing about riding a motorcycle and wrecks being inevitable.
Bullshit.

There are always statistical outliers, and ways to minimize risk... but it's still a good rule of thumb.

Every time I think of riding again, I feel where I got third degree burns after hitting a patch of nearly invisible oil...

[Malamute]

Ive heard the same thing about riding a motorcycle and wrecks being inevitable.
Bullshit.

I had several near misses, and only a couple low speed slides on the pavement. I stopped before anything else happened. I rode a fair bit, 20-25K/year for several years, cross country, and lots of exploring around the state I lived in. I had several friends get killed or seriously hurt riding. I dont know if its different peoples reaction time, awareness, luck, or all of the above.

And yes, I've had a couple ND's. Nothing died and nothing expensive was hit.

[Al T.]

The video guy lives about an hour north of me. I watched a few of his videos in hopes of gaining some insight on local trainers. His lack of expertise and sloppy gun handling drove me away. I also felt that he just didn't have much of a handle on training events in any meaningful way, I.E., any event he attended he complimented, though the drills shown had little value, IMHO.

[psalms144.1]

I have a VERY wicked scar and diminished functioning in one hand from my ND. I've gone over it a million times in my head, and know precisely what I did that led to my injuries. I don't hide the story from my co-workers or the people I train, and most of them take it in the light it's intended - if it can happen to a senior FI, it can happen to anyone in a moment of lapsed attention.

I applaud this guy's willingness to share his experiences as learning points, but was actually cringing as I watched him discussing his G26 mishap. Did anyone else notice that the whole time there was a magazine in the pistol and the trigger was forward (indicating a ready-to-fire status)? I would have HOPED that, after NDing the PCR on camera, he would have learned to CLEAR THE KITTENING PISTOLS before reaching for the video camera again.

So, kudos to him for sharing his stories, but, I think he's probably in DESPERATE need of "intervention" before it happens again...

Regards,

Kevin

[LSP552]

his description on the first perfectly demonstrated how amazingly easy it is to have SHTF. Middle of a review, has to run an errand, tanks back up the review gun, comes home, drops mag and forgets to clear the chamber. I wouldn't personally beat the guy up too bad over it, for the simple fact that it could happen to any of us. His brain probably hadn't switched fully back into "review" mode and since it wasn't the start of the review but in the middle, didn't perform what I expect would be his normal "check" procedures for a review. I want to say it was Caleb that wrote about this exact type of thing years back when talking about dry fire practice: if you get interrupted for some reason, take a couple moments to get your head back in the right frame of mind, redo all your safety steps, then go on with your practice. I think it follows along with adherence to Rule #1... all guns are always loaded. If you put down a gun you've been holding, even if you KNOW it was unloaded when you put it down, you check it again for the simple fact it was out of your direct control for some period of time.


Distraction or interruption is a key factor in many NDs. The closest I came to actually being killed in the line of duty was by another trooper who launched a 125 gr. .357 bullet into the space my chest occupied 1 second before. We had worked an anti-crime plainclothes detail in New Orleans during Mardi Gras, finished early and was back in the hotel. I knocked on his door and when he opened said he had dropped his revolver, thought it was broken, and asked me to take a look at it. I stepped into the room and noticed a 2 1/2" model 66 and a pile of cartridges on the bed. He sat down on the bed and picket up the revolver. I said I'd take a look after I used the restroom, turned and stepped toward the bathroom. As I turned and stepped he raised the revolver and fired a round when I was standing as I stepped away.

He had dropped his revolver, unloaded it and was dry firing to see if the cylinder was binding just prior to me knocking on the door. He had started to reload, dropping 1 round into the cylinder when i interrupted him by knocking on the door. He closed the cylinder, indexing the single round perfectly.

When he sat back down and picked the revolver up, it was still empty in his mind and he squeezed another "dry fire" stroke, nearly killing me in the process.

[johnm]

A friend of mine works in IT at a big GSE. If they make 3 mistakes that impact operations, they're gone. It's a great way to freeze all infrastructure in time, and make everyone scared to make any changes, even if it's good for the organization.

That sounds like management and process failure.

The rule in ops is: "Don't trust anyone who hasn't brought down the site."
If they make the same mistake more than once then management has failed and it's almost always a combination of attitude, capability, training, and process.

In the shooting world, it seems like it is (should be) the same. If you've never had a true "oh shit" moment then either you're a (paranoid) machine or you're dangerously overconfident about the possible failure modes.

Catastrophic failures are usually a sequence of failures that happen together.

Shooting example: The lady who was just shot by her 2-year old son.

[johnm]

Ive heard the same thing about riding a motorcycle and wrecks being inevitable.
Bullshit.

Ah but in terms of assessing the statistics, the "why" of someone who hasn't had a serious accident yet matters. Are they people who train to deal with the atypical occurrences, take care of their equipment, etc. or are they the obliviously unaware and are therefore both overconfident and unprepared? If you're a betting person, which way are you gonna bet?

[Wheeler]

We have a saying at work. "If you're not screwing up, you're not getting anything done. Anyone that claims they are productive and doesn't make mistakes is a liar." There's a fine line between screwing up and playing it safe. Prudence comes from experience if we're wise enough to learn from our mistakes and can move past them.

[Bigguy]

Ive heard the same thing about riding a motorcycle and wrecks being inevitable.
Bullshit.

Yep. I've heard that there are two kinds of riders, those who have had a wreck and those who are going to have a wreck. Like you, I don't buy it. I've had two wrecks on a motorcycle, and they were both completely preventable. I got lucky both times. Though they could have been bad, both times I escaped serious injury. And more importantly, I didn't hurt anybody else with my stupidity. I've also heard that a biker starts out with two bags. One, labeled experience, is completely empty. The other, labeled luck, if full. You hope to fill the first one before the second one is empty. Those wrecks were early in my riding career, and convinced me to stop taking short cuts with safety.
I've also experienced some NDs. The last one I was still a teenager, more years ago than I car to contemplate. That one scared me because I almost took off a friends foot. A vine caught and dropped the hammer on my single shot, break action .410. I was carrying it with the barrel pointed toward the ground, but not mindful of barrel sweeping the legs of the guys with me.
With bikes and guns, I was lucky enough that my epiphanial moments didn't cost dearly. It's possible that most people are enough like me that they require something to get their attention before safety as a foundational mindset kicks in. But I believe that there are some people, simply squared away enough to get it right with out those brushes with disaster. I don't think that a wreck is an inevitable event in a riders life, and I don't buy that an ND is an inevitable event in a shooters life. I will say that most riders I've know have had at least on attention getting wreck, but not all. I haven't been hanging out with shooters long enough to have a feel for the percentage of those who have experienced NDs, but I wouldn't be surprised to discover that most have. I would be surprised to discover they were inevitable.