Good Rifle Plate options for LEO

[firecop019]

Given the current state of events I've begun to put more thought into purchasing my own plates for my vest. There are just so many to choose from and I have no clue what is good and what is bad. I need something that doesn't have to be xray'd, will take a fall with my fat butt on top of it (the fat butt is a work in progress) and will stop the 5.56 and the 7.62x39. I don't have a lot of money to throw at this but I'd like a few options to research.

Thanks, and be safe everyone!
Dan

[KeeFus]

Ive been looking into these lately for the same reason.

http://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-body-armor.html

Their YouTube channel.

https://m.youtube.com/user/AR500Armor

[Chuck Haggard]

My only worry about steel plates are the number of them that I have seen fail when hit with M193. M193 is rather, well, common.

[Jay Cunningham]

M193 is a steel punch, no doubt about it.

[KeeFus]

My only worry about steel plates sre the number of them that I have seen fail when hit with M193. M193 is rather, well, common.

Yeap.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w1K3wCRjcdM

[jc000]

I don't own these but they seem to be well-regarded. I had called before with some questions and they were very helpful, maybe worth reaching out to them: http://armoredmobility.com/products_tac3s.php

[Shellback]

SKD is having 15% off everything and has some pretty good prices to begin with. I've had nothing but great customer service from them as well.

http://www.skdtac.com/Tactical-Armor-Plates-s/290.htm

[mark7]

While not the least expensive, after comparing pros/cons, reading Doc's advice, I chose a set of 11X14 SAPI3 plates from armored mobility to protect my fat @ss.

http://armoredmobility.com/products_sapi3.php

My dept is in the process of purcasing a few more from them.

Everyone we've encountered at armored mobility has been great.

YMMV

M

[Chuck Haggard]

Personally I also worry about M855, it's common enough locally that we have seen it on the street. Wal Mart sells 420 round cans for $179

[Erick Gelhaus]

Are you talking about setting up a plate carrier that you can put on, given sufficient notice, or are you looking at adding some additional protection to your current (concealed?) soft armor?

True rifle rated plates would be a PITA to wear all day, daily, especially in concealed armor.

If aren't going the plate carrier route, you might take a look at Paraclete's SPEED plate line. They are rated for most of the special threat loads as well as .30 carbine and 12ga slug. But if you are going the plate carrier route, I'd look at what ammunition is available locally and what ammunition is actually being seized from the bad guys in your area. That knowledge might help your decisions.

[DocGKR]

http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/level-iii-patrol-armor-test

Uniformed LE officers typically wear concealable soft armor, typically Level II or IIIa, on a daily basis. However, in high risk situations, including Tactical and Special Operations, active shooter incidents, and violent felony warrant service there is a significant risk of injury from common center fire rifle threats that can easily defeat concealable soft armor, irrespective of whether the rifles are chambered in traditional civilian hunting or military calibers (ex. 5.56 mm, 6.5 mm, .270, .30 carbine, 7.62x39 mm, .30-30, .308, 7.62x54 mm, .30-06, .300 Win Mag, .45-70). In these situations, it is imperative that law enforcement officers have Level III or IV hard armor plates to protect against rifle caliber threats.

Some LE agencies have been guilty of only purchasing front plates for officers in order to save costs, however, only providing rifle protection to the officer’s front is asinine, as has been demonstrated in many tragic fatalities when rifle shots have come from unexpected directions other than the front. Officers MUST have both front and rear plates. For those officers routinely involved in high risk missions, additional side armor plates might also be appropriate.
For SWAT and other Special Operations use, purchasing dedicated tactical armor carriers without hard armor rifle protection is ludicrous.
When looking at hard body armor, LE Agencies need to assess what threats they anticipate in their area of operations, local geography, environmental concerns, as well as mobility needs.

For OCONUS military and para-military settings, level IV plates capable of stopping AP rounds may be a critical requirement. In some settings, the most important rounds to stop are 7.62x39 mm steel core M43 FMJ and 7.62x54 mm Type-L FMJ; in other areas, the ability to stop AP rounds in those calibers is also crucial.
For the typical LE officer within CONUS, it is highly unusual to be confronted by opponents using AP ammo; it is much more likely to be hit with FMJ and expanding hunting rounds from rifles in calibers from .223 to .30-06, as well as 12 ga. shotguns. In addition, LE agencies need to ensure their armor provides protection against all issued duty and training ammo.

Thus for CONUS LE use, multi-hit capable Level III plates capable of stopping 5.56 mm M193 and M855 are a good choice.

For uniformed LE officers already wearing concealed soft armor, a simple hard armor plate carrier without cummerbund, like those available from many vendors, is the most cost effective and simplest way to add Level III or IV armor protection. In addition, in an active shooter incident, a simple plate carrier is the most rapid type of hard armor for officers to don that offers protection from rifle threats. Simple hard armor plate carriers with Level III multi-hit 5.56 mm tested plates are perfect for uniformed patrol officers and should ideally be available in every patrol car in America. For a planned event that offers some preparation time like a high risk warrant service or Tactical/Special Operations assignment, dedicated tactical armor worn with Level IIIa soft armor inserts and appropriate Level III or IV hard armor plates are quite common, however, these take a fair amount of time to don and cannot be worn by uniformed personnel already wearing concealed soft armor. Thus, these are not ideal or effective for uniformed patrol personnel. Low profile hard armor carriers look similar to normal soft armor carriers, but are designed to carry not only the soft armor, but also hard armor plates. These are great for many high threat situations, especially during extended field use, vehicle operations, or in environments where hard armor needs to be concealed with a large jacket or other outer garment. Low profile hard armor carriers can be worn alone or are often combined with low profile chest rigs. These systems allow protection from rifle fire and a much reduced kit signature with good mobility and easy access into/egress from vehicles. In high threat areas, they can be worn instead of typical soft armor carriers.

Keep in mind that the NIJ Level III test only uses 6 hits of 7.62 x 51 mm M80 FMJ. The NIJ Level III test does NOT use ANY 5.56 mm threats. While some Level III plates may stop 55 gr FMJ M193, 62 gr FMJ M855 “green tip”, and other 5.56 mm loads, other Level III plates may not. LE agencies must be sure to get the specific threat caliber and exact ammunition loads and velocities that Level III hard plates have been tested against in WRITING from the armor vendor, as the NIJ Level III rating does NOT certify hard armor plates against ANY 5.56 mm threats. Likewise, the NIJ Level IV test only uses from 1 to 6 hits of WWII era .30-06 M2 Black Tip AP. It does NOT assess armor capability against ANY modern AP threats like 5.56 mm M995 and 7.62 x 51 mm M993. Nor does it test against any Level III threats. Again, LE agencies must ensure they get the specific threat caliber and exact ammunition loads and velocities that Level IV hard plates have been tested against in WRITING from the armor vendor, as the NIJ Level IV rating does NOT certify hard armor plates against ANY modern AP threats.

Currently there are four common options for Level III plates:

5-6 mm steel (AR500/R50c/AR46100) plates: Level III steel plates offer a very thin profile, but are a bit heavier (6.5-7.5 lbs for a 10x12 plate) than some other options. They are very durable and offer inexpensive multi-hit capability against even closely spaced non-AP 7.62 x 39 mm and 7.62 x 51 mm projectiles, as well as for heavier 5.56 mm loads, including 62 gr M855 “green-tip”. Unfortunately, many lightweight (55 gr or less) 5.56 mm loads will defeat steel plates, including the extremely common 55 gr FMJ loads like M193. It is a VERY good idea to wear level IIIa soft armor underneath steel plates. These are likely NOT a good option for CONUS LE officers.

Hard compressed polyethelene (Dyneema/Spectra) plates: These are very lightweight (3-4 lbs for a 10 x 12 plate) multi- hit capable level III plates that will stop closely spaced hits of both the lightweight 5.56 mm ammo that defeats steel, along with the 7.62 mm threats stopped by steel, as well expanding rifle ammunition in many hunting calibers. Unfortunately, hard polyethelene plates are often perforated by current military issue 5.56 mm 62 gr M855 FMJ “green-tip” and 5.56 mm M855A1 62 gr ammunition. While not necessarily required, it is not a bad idea for compressed polyethelene plates to be worn in conjunction with soft level IIIa armor underneath. These are NOT an ideal option for CONUS LE use.

Non-ceramic hybrid plates: These combine several non-ceramic materials, for example both steel and hard polyethelene layers, and appear to offer the most robust protection of any current level III plates. They are very durable and stop multiple closely spaced hits of almost all non-AP ammo, including high velocity 5.56 mm threats, as well as M855; however they are typically a bit heavier (7-7.5 lbs for a 10 x 12 plate) than some other types of hard armor. These are typically NIJ stand- alone capable, so soft armor is usually not required underneath. These plates typically are quite durable and generally do not require annual non-destructive testing.

Ceramic plates: These plates are relatively lightweight (4-6 lbs for a 10 x 12 plate) for the protection provided, but can be more susceptible to occult damage in day-to-day use, and usually cannot withstand as many closely spaced hits as other plate types. Ceramic plates should ideally undergo non-destructive testing (x-ray, ultrasound, etc...) each year to ensure that hidden cracks are not present. Ceramic plates are available in both in-conjunction and stand-alone configurations. Note that almost all level IV plates use ceramic elements in order to stop AP rounds.

Ceramic hybrid plates: Most ceramic hybrid plates combine ceramic materials like silicone carbide, aluminum oxide, or boron carbide along with various other materials, including metal, compressed polyethelene, etc... These plates are often heavier than pure ceramic plates, but are a bit more robust, with potentially better multi-hit protection and greater durability. Nonetheless, periodic non-destructive analysis is recommended because of the ceramic elements. Ceramic hybrid designs are often used in stand-alone level IV plates intended to stop AP projectiles.

[KevinB]

With Armor - Velocity Systems -- they have a decent LEO deal ;)
http://www.velsyst.com/store/236/0/ARMOR---Hard-Armor.html

Highly recommend the 7.62x39 (API-BZ) plates -- they will stop pretty much anything CONUS.

[DI1]

With Armor - Velocity Systems -- they have a decent LEO deal ;)
http://www.velsyst.com/store/236/0/ARMOR---Hard-Armor.html

Highly recommend the 7.62x39 (API-BZ) plates -- they will stop pretty much anything CONUS.

Velocity Systems plates are excellent!

[Surf]

I have several old school AR500 steel rifle plates, coated and non-coated, sitting around. The big downside, they are heavy. If you are going to be in a plate carrier for any amount of time, the weight is very noticed. If not or if the weight is no big deal then they work well, definitely a quality coated plate. I am currently running MSA, triple curve, shooter cut, multi-hits in both my full kit and my plate carrier set up. A bit thicker in profile, but a good trade for weight savings in multi-hit plates.

[firecop019]

I'm looking for a plate to supplement my soft armor on duty. We have a level IV shield if need be but given all this ambush stuff I'd like something else to place in my uniform carrier. We wear external uniform carriers now and will take the 10x12 plates.

[firecop019]

Thanks Doc, I couldnt for the life of me remember where you had your armor info at?

[Lon]

Just before I went back to the dick section I was seriously contemplating buying a 6x8 plate (III or IV) and putting it into the trauma pocket on the front of my patrol vest under my uniform. If/when I go back to the street, I'll probably follow through with that idea. A little heavier than the extra little plates they put in there now (what are they called "special threats"?), but much better protection. Just wasn't sure how comfortable they'd be.

[rathos]

I bought a set of these and an extra to shoot. They used to be about $20 cheaper, but I think they are still a good deal.

max pro plates (http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=18147&tabid=137)

Shot it with m193, 55 grain FMJ, .308 FMJ and 168 grain match and some 30 '06 armor piercing. It held up to all of those. So far the plates have held up to 3 years of being taken in and out of a patrol car. I get them xrayed each year when the SWAT team does theirs and no cracks. I will also say that I am a reserve deputy so they aren't in a patrol car all the time, but when I go on patrol they get loaded in and out of the patrol car and my truck.

I do know of some officers in the city that bought the same plates and they have held up pretty well to constant riding in a patrol car.

[jnc36rcpd]

I know that our rulers intend to ensure we are not doing anything militarized and/or evil with surplus gear, but are plates and/or helmets available through the military surplus program? I'm tasked with developing a proposal to improve our armor. I think a transition to Level IIIA that is approved by NIJ and FBI tests standards will sail through without a fight. Plates, plate carriers, and helmets will be more of a fight. Thanks and be safe.

[CanineCombatives]

In soft armor solutions, point blank moved back to the front of the pack recently with this> www.eliteproven.com

In rifle plates you end up asking two questions, first is the NIJ cert, once that's determined the next question is
what is the absolute lightest plate that meets the required standard, at least to the guys who are going to be wearing
the gear for hours on end in training and deployment that's the question.
If your able to buy your own or your with a well funded agency that wants the latest and greatest these plates are it> www.midwestarmor.com/venture-force-multiplier-armor

[DocGKR]

NIJ certification of LIII hard armor is less than helpful, as they do NOT test against any 5.56 mm threats. None. The FBI does a much better test protocol.

[DocGKR]

Regarding soft body armor:

For LE patrol use where the risk of contact shots is high, you want a vest tested and warranted to stop at least your own duty handgun round. The best soft armor choices remain vests that have passed either the FBI Soft Body Armor Test Protocol or any 100% all WOVEN p-aramid soft armor.

Current vests that meet the FBI test protocol include:
DBT/First Choice Armor: NForce2 S6x-06.1 (level II)
DBT/First Choice Armor: SynergyXS6X (level IIIa)
KDH: LTST-102-IIIA (level IIIa)
Point Blank/PACA/Paraclete/PPE: AX (level II and IIIa)
Point Blank/PACA/Paraclete/PPE: AIIIA-1 (level IIIa)
Point Blank/PACA/Paraclete/PPE: DX (level II and IIIa)
Point Blank/PACA/Paraclete/PPE: FLXIIIA (level IIIa)
Point Blank/PACA/Paraclete/PPE: SP+2LE (level II)
Survival Armor: Paragon6 LWIIIa (level IIIa)

Previous soft armor that has meet the FBI spec includes the level IIIa DBT/CAT RVA3A fabricated with Kevlar XLT over backing layers of Kevlar XP, the level IIIa DBT/CAT QVA3A-1 built using approximately a 50/50 mix of Twaron backed by Dyneema, the level IIIa Paraclete KNX3A made using Twaron and Goldflex, as well as the level IIIa Pinnacle Armor S2000-3A-01 all Twaron armor). 100% all WOVEN p-aramid soft armor that has worked well includes armor like the level IIIa U.S. Armor Enforcer Classic and the level IIIa Paraclete K3K3A all Twaron armor). In addition, although built using a Kevlar polyethelene laminate material, the the level IIIa Velocity Systems VS13A has demonstrated the ability to stop service caliber contact shots in independent testing. (Note--buyers should be wary, as there are laminated aramids, such as Gold Flex, that can be called 100% aramids, that are NOT the same as 100% WOVEN p-aramids.)

Remember--armor that passes the FBI Body Armor Test Protocol and 100% woven p-aramid vests may be a bit thicker, but they offer substantially more protection than many other vests on the market. Officer's need to know that lighter, thinner, more expensive vests are NOT necessarily offering better protection. In addition, 100% woven p-aramid armor has demonstrated very long service lives—we have tested numerous older Kevlar vests, including one that was 25 years old, a few that were 15 to 18 years old, and numerous vests in the 9-12 year range, that ALL continued to easily stop the threats they were rated for, including multiple contact shots from the same 9 mm and .44 Mag loads that perforated brand new polyethelene laminate vests. Obviously, if you are NOT likely to get hit with a contact shot, for example military personnel on the battlefield, then contact shot performance is not as critical as for end-users, like U.S. LE patrol officers, who are likely to face contact shot threats.

Progressive LE agencies are beginning to require that all vests purchased for uniformed patrol MUST pass the FBI Body Armor Test Protocol. Vest purchasing contracts should always specify that each new vest come with TWO (2) vest carriers; in addition, going with one (1) wide side closure strap on each side rather than two (2) smaller ones is a good idea. Also, savvy agencies are inserting contractual requirements authorizing unannounced visits to the armor vendor's manufacturing facility to observe how the raw armor materials are stored and inspect the armor while it is being assembled.

This is a good example of an acceptable LE agency body armor procurement: http://www.bidsync.com/DPX?ac=view&auc=108034.

At the moment, my first choice in soft armor would likely be an FBI compliant Point Blank Armor package or one by KDH--perhaps even an LII vest, as some of the current FBI compliant LII soft armor offers as much protection as LIIIa panels did 10 years ago.

[firecop019]

Has anyone tested any of the Paraclete plates yet? I'm curious how those hold up. I think our biggest threat here is the green tip 5.56 and the 7.72x39. I intend to wear these plates inside my external uniform carrier with my soft armor as the backstop.

[JDM]

Armor Express offers a lot of appealing options. Any reason to avoid them?

[Default.mp3]

Armor Express offers a lot of appealing options. Any reason to avoid them?


IIRC, Armor Express is owned by Richard Davis and other ethically challenged folks from Second Chance who ruined that company...these are the same individuals who knowingly sold defective armor that lead to the death of Officer Tony Zeppetella and the wounding of two others.

From an LF post circa 2008, so I'm not sure how accurate it is still.

[heyscooter]

With Armor - Velocity Systems -- they have a decent LEO deal ;)
http://www.velsyst.com/store/236/0/ARMOR---Hard-Armor.html

Highly recommend the 7.62x39 (API-BZ) plates -- they will stop pretty much anything CONUS.

Have to echo this. They make a great product that is plenty comfortable. And yes they are pricy. Still worth it.

[Motorcopm4]

Personally I also worry about M855, it's common enough locally that we have seen it on the street. Wal Mart sells 420 round cans for $179

Apparently SAPI plates won't stop a M855 but will a 7.62

[Doug MacRay]

I thought I would resurrect this thread to ask about a new type of plate I saw recently. I've always been a big fan of the level III+ polyethylene plates with soft IIIa backing due to cost and weight, however as Doc points out, these are a poor choice due to their susceptibility to penetration by 5.56 rounds, notably the common M855 'green tip.' Recently I saw a product test of a polyethylene plate with a ceramic strike face that will stop M855 as well as other common 5.56 rounds. It was labeled "level III++." Obviously, this is not an actual NIJ specification, just the label they've given to it. Is this ceramic strike face/polyethylene combo a viable concept or a more of a gimmick? Does anyone have experience with these types of plates? The price and weight seem decent if it provides the protection that it claims to. Would this make polyethylene a viable CONUS option?

**NOTE** I am NOT affiliated with this company at all, just curious as to whether this would make for adequate CONUS protection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9rEqx3DcIA

http://www.dfndrarmor.com/product/level-iii-plus-plus-rifle-plate-body-armor/

[Jason M]

Who makes their plates for them? There are lots of sellers but only a few makers. Tencate and Hesco are two such makers.

It looks, from what I can see in the video, similar to a Speed Plate Plus from Paraclete.

If you are looking for proven armor choices, contact AT Armor. Only quality products at very reasonable prices and the staff know what they are talking about.

http://store.atarmor.com/

[Dr. No]

Please for the love of god, do not buy AR500 plates.

I've had the pleasure of working with a crew out of socal that are putting out some really impressive products:

http://americanblastsystems.com/

They are offering several "in conjunction with" plates, which are perfect for LE purposes when you're running soft armor anyway. The level III ICW offering they have is 1.5 pounds a plate. 1.5 pounds!! They also have a "level III green tip" which will stop 855 ammunition which weighs in at about 3.5 pounds.

These are not stand alone plates. That is important to note.

However, at $299 for the III ICW, it offers you an unbelievably light up-armor capability that you can throw in a carrier and still maintain mobility. The price is worth every penny.

[DocGKR]

Hmmm....see post #11 above:


"Ceramic hybrid plates: Most ceramic hybrid plates combine ceramic materials like silicone carbide, aluminum oxide, or boron carbide along with various other materials, including metal, compressed polyethelene, etc... These plates are often heavier than pure ceramic plates, but are a bit more robust, with potentially better multi-hit protection and greater durability. Nonetheless, periodic non-destructive analysis is recommended because of the ceramic elements. Ceramic hybrid designs are often used in stand-alone level IV plates intended to stop AP projectiles."

[Rex G]

Timely thread; I am net-shopping for a potential plate purchase, and weighing my threat profile.

FWIW, my largest perceived threat, in the near-north-side Houston area, is 7.62x39. AK weapons are very popular with the Hispanic gang types, based upon what I am seeing. (My assigned district is gentrified/wealthy near-southwest, inside Loop 610, but I often back-up units riding near-north.) This does not mean I would not want to be ready to face more-penetrative ammo; US-59/I-69, a major corridor linking the Mexican border with points north and east, runs through my assigned district.

[John Hearne]

FWIW, my largest perceived threat, in the near-north-side Houston area, is 7.62x39

We bought sets of the Tencate 2000SA to replace a singe Dyneema plate we previously issued. This is the same plate as Point Blanks Speed Plate Plus. This is a special threat rate plate designed to stop 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 threats. So far everyone really likes them. They are only 0.5" thick and are much more comfortable and conforming to wear.

While not rated for them, I bought a spare plate to test with common hunting rounds. My suspicion is that the plates will stop them but with some excessive backface deformation. I also have some M855A1 to test which should be real interesting.

[Rex G]

We bought sets of the Tencate 2000SA to replace a singe Dyneema plate we previously issued. This is the same plate as Point Blanks Speed Plate Plus. This is a special threat rate plate designed to stop 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 threats. So far everyone really likes them. They are only 0.5" thick and are much more comfortable and conforming to wear.

While not rated for them, I bought a spare plate to test with common hunting rounds. My suspicion is that the plates will stop them but with some excessive backface deformation. I also have some M855A1 to test which should be real interesting.

Thanks. I reckon that "excessive backface deformation" is better than complete penetration!

[fwrun]

I went on my own dime and purchased the First Spear First On (version w/ med pocket) combo that included triple curve level IV plates. The carrier is fine, but the plates are ridiculously heavy. Like obsurdly. If I could go back, I would have gone a different route plate-wise, likely with level iii, as I always have the iiia soft armor on at work.

Really, a special threat plate fits my needs more directly, and may begin exploring those options.

[DocGKR]

What is "excessive backface deformation"?

When does that matter?

[Rex G]

My patrol division now issues each of us a generic-looking carrier with a pair of Hesco Level IV plates, at the beginning of each shift, and of course we give them back at the end of the shift, so the next shift can use them. I am concerned that such shared plates will be dropped and otherwise roughly handled, and that, plus the weight, mean I am not likely to use them much, if ever. (If I am going to have to bail out, run to the tailgate, and pull armor from the rear of the vehicle, I think I would rather have a ballistic shield, than a pair of heavy Level IV plates.)

I just ordered a Mayflower plate carrier, and will be shopping for suitable 10x12" plates, probably III or III+, and then seeing if I can get used to patrolling with them for a whole shift. A new circular was just released, specifically allowing us to wear our own plates, in external carriers, if they are Level III or higher, and the carrier is black in color, with suitable lettering identifying us as police.

[DpdG]

(If I am going to have to bail out, run to the tailgate, and pull armor from the rear of the vehicle, I think I would rather have a ballistic shield, than a pair of heavy Level IV plates.)

Not that a shield is a bad thing, but many/most shields that are designed to be carried are IIIA, so they offer little to no protection against rifle calibers. Most rifle rated shields are on wheels and weigh 50+ pounds. I've heard of a few Level III shields that weigh around 20lbs, but they are not commonplace.

I have no idea what your threat environment is, but the three major factors in wearable plates are 1) weight, 2) protection, and 3) cost. The general guideline is you can pick any 2. Most plates light enough to be tolerable for entire shifts are some form of polyethylene, which usually are not rated for M855. If M855 is a common threat in your area, perhaps another material would be a better choice?

Regarding handling abuse, would it be feasible for the issued carriers to be assigned to the vehicle and stay there, outside of deployment? If the plates are ceramic, I think they would be ok with the heat, although I would certainly double check before implementing such a change. It seems they are most likely to be dropped/abused while in transit from station to vehicle at shift change.

[Rex G]

Not that a shield is a bad thing, but many/most shields that are designed to be carried are IIIA, so they offer little to no protection against rifle calibers. Most rifle rated shields are on wheels and weigh 50+ pounds. I've heard of a few Level III shields that weigh around 20lbs, but they are not commonplace.

I have no idea what your threat environment is, but the three major factors in wearable plates are 1) weight, 2) protection, and 3) cost. The general guideline is you can pick any 2. Most plates light enough to be tolerable for entire shifts are some form of polyethylene, which usually are not rated for M855. If M855 is a common threat in your area, perhaps another material would be a better choice?

Regarding handling abuse, would it be feasible for the issued carriers to be assigned to the vehicle and stay there, outside of deployment? If the plates are ceramic, I think they would be ok with the heat, although I would certainly double check before implementing such a change. It seems they are most likely to be dropped/abused while in transit from station to vehicle at shift change.

1. I will admit that I have not yet done much homework regarding shields, but vividly recall the image of the shield used by the heroic French good guys who entered the Bataclan. That shield stopped AK fire, though I am not sure whether it was 7.62x39, or the smaller-bore AK-74 round. (7.62x36 is my major perceived threat.)

Notably, in conversations with my fellow officers, several have said they plan to use the issued plates as improvised shields, or portable cover, rather than try to take the time to don them.

2. AR15 weapons are popular here, but more so among good guys than bad guys, thus far, thankfully. We did, however, have one active shooter in the west part of the city, in 2016, who used an AR15 type of weapon, and did injure a deputy constable, and kill one citizen. IIRC, one of our SWAT snipers nailed this bad guy, from long range. Interestingly, this incident received less press than the lawyer, who had a melt-down, and shot-up his neighborhood, with .45 ACP, in a much more affluent area of town, in 2016. The only death was the actor, himself, hit my multiple LEOs, and no LEOs were hit.

3. We had asked for the vests/plates to be assigned to the vehicles, when we had just one or two sets to issue to each district, but that apparently fell on deaf ears. I have seen officers drop these earlier plates, intentionally or not, and some have then dragged them down the hallway. The newer plates, that are now issued to each unit, are in smaller cases, with short handles, so cannot readily be dragged, and thus far, I have not seen any of them being dropped and dragged.

I am interested in acquiring my own Level III/III+ plates, because they are notably lighter, and I hope to wear them. The light weight is not just a strength issue, but my gimpy knee constantly teeters on the edge of disaster, and really feels it when I ascend and descend the three flights of stairs in the parking garage each shift, toting the pair of Hesco Level IV plates. If I can show that I own a pair of Level III or higher plates, that are within their "warranty" period, I can opt to forego being issued a set of plates.

FWIW, I noticed, while doing my home-work, that Level IV plates are not necessarily constructed to withstand multiple hits of anything, being designed to take ONE hit of armor-piercing 30.06, whereas a Level III plate is certified to take multiple hits of 147-grain 7.62 NATO. Interesting. Of course, Level III will not stop all .223/5.56, and I wonder whether some of this penetrative .223/5.56 would woodpecker its way through Level IV.

[DpdG]

The heroism of those French cops cannot be overstated. I think their shields were on wheels though, or at least that's what I think was shown in some images.

I'm stretching my lane badly, but I believe the issue with many level III plates is they are either poly or steel. Poly (light weight) generally can stop 7.62x39 and M193, but not M855. Steel (heavy) can stop 7.62x39 and M855, but not M193. 5.56 (and maybe 5.45?) is a bitch to stop because of the velocity. Most IV are ceramic (or ceramic combo) and are rated for 30-06 single hit, but not multi-hit by NIJ definition. The plates advertised as III+ or III++ are generally within the CONUS LE threat envelope- problem is they are often heavy-ish and expensive. Finally, I don't think III+ and ++ are formal NIJ ratings, so you need to check the ratings for each specific model.

There is a thread on here from about 9 months ago where Doc gave me some great advice on plates for CONUS LE. Unfortunately I cannot find a link while on my phone.

[Rex G]

The heroism of those French cops cannot be overstated. I think their shields were on wheels though, or at least that's what I think was shown in some images.

I'm stretching my lane badly, but I believe the issue with many level III plates is they are either poly or steel. Poly (light weight) generally can stop 7.62x39 and M193, but not M855. Steel (heavy) can stop 7.62x39 and M855, but not M193. 5.56 (and maybe 5.45?) is a bitch to stop because of the velocity. Most IV are ceramic (or ceramic combo) and are rated for 30-06 single hit, but not multi-hit by NIJ definition. The plates advertised as III+ or III++ are generally within the CONUS LE threat envelope- problem is they are often heavy-ish and expensive. Finally, I don't think III+ and ++ are formal NIJ ratings, so you need to check the ratings for each specific model.

There is a thread on here from about 9 months ago where Doc gave me some great advice on plates for CONUS LE. Unfortunately I cannot find a link while on my phone.

It is quite true that the "+" and "++" are not official NIJ terms, and are merely manufacturer terminology for what they say are better-than-plain-vanilla-III. Some manufacturers have made some very interesting claims about the performance of their III+ and III++ plates, with such ammo as M855A1.

I will try searching for Doc's thread. Thanks for the head's-up on it.

[DocGKR]

LIII shields do not have to weigh 50 lbs: http://armoredmobility.com/products_shield.php

[Jason M]

The heroism of those French cops cannot be overstated. I think their shields were on wheels though, or at least that's what I think was shown in some images.

I'm stretching my lane badly, but I believe the issue with many level III plates is they are either poly or steel. Poly (light weight) generally can stop 7.62x39 and M193, but not M855. Steel (heavy) can stop 7.62x39 and M855, but not M193. 5.56 (and maybe 5.45?) is a bitch to stop because of the velocity. Most IV are ceramic (or ceramic combo) and are rated for 30-06 single hit, but not multi-hit by NIJ definition. The plates advertised as III+ or III++ are generally within the CONUS LE threat envelope- problem is they are often heavy-ish and expensive. Finally, I don't think III+ and ++ are formal NIJ ratings, so you need to check the ratings for each specific model.

There is a thread on here from about 9 months ago where Doc gave me some great advice on plates for CONUS LE. Unfortunately I cannot find a link while on my phone.

Post #11 in this thread is what I think you are looking for?

[Rex G]

LIII shields do not have to weigh 50 lbs: http://armoredmobility.com/products_shield.php

Thanks! I had seen this site, some time ago, but then forgotten it. (That seems to happen too much, these days.)

I wonder how a Level III shield, plus a Level II concealed vest, and/or a Level III plate, would stop some of the more-penetrative 5.56. I do know that one cannot simply add the numbers together.

[Rex G]

With Armor - Velocity Systems -- they have a decent LEO deal ;)
http://www.velsyst.com/store/236/0/ARMOR---Hard-Armor.html

Highly recommend the 7.62x39 (API-BZ) plates -- they will stop pretty much anything CONUS.

This one seems the most interesting, due to its claimed performance and the reputation of the manufacturer/seller, but at $2400 for a pair of them, I am going to have to change some major budget priorities.

[PearTree]

This one seems the most interesting, due to its claimed performance and the reputation of the manufacturer/seller, but at $2400 for a pair of them, I am going to have to change some major budget priorities.
https://store.atarmor.com/category_s/1909.htm
They have whatever you need. They are also a reputable company with a well respected owner.

[Rick62]

This one seems the most interesting, due to its claimed performance and the reputation of the manufacturer/seller, but at $2400 for a pair of them, I am going to have to change some major budget priorities.

Rex,
Velocity Systems has been a pleasure to deal with during a recent Departmental purchase. I can't comment on the their plates specifically, but based on my interactions with them over the last few months, I would absolutely recommend that you reach out to them directly.

Edited to add Tyr Tactical as another recommendation. We did buy plates from them, and they were willing to go the extra mile for us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DocGKR]

The Velocity PBZ/AT Armor Stop-BZ/Tencate 6400 is a nice plate with all the advantages and disadvantages of a plate containing ceramics...

[Rex G]

Well, last night they issued both me, and my PPO, sets of Level IV plates. This removes the urgency of my buying plates, as one reason I was shopping for plates is because there had not been enough plates for everyone; just one set per unit. Now, it seems there are enough for each officer.

Of course, I would still like to have a set of personal III+ plates that are lighter than these Level IV Hesco plates.

[Rex G]

The local assasination of Assistant Chief Deputy Constable Clint Greenwood has, sadly, shown us that we can armor-up, but then we must arrange for the bad guys to shoot our fancy armor. A GSW to his neck killed him. As I understand it, one round also hit his vest, and was stopped. I do not know the level of his armor, or the cartridge of the shooter's weapon; my sources of insider information have retired or found greener pastures elsewhere.

He had previously worked as a high-profile prosecutor for the D.A., and then as a head public integrity investigator as a Major in the Sheriff's office, and was aware of specific and credible threats to himself and his family. Known as a savvy shooter and skilled rifle builder, he may well have up-armored his presumably concealed vest. I had only conversed with him by phone, but my wife, in her time working at the Harris County M.E., and interacting with the OEM, was acquainted with him. May he rest in peace.

I have little doubt that Clint Greenwood's assassin was intentionally aiming for the neck or head, being cognizant of armor. Let's all be careful out there!

I do not work many "big" cases, but am frequently on TV, as I am video-ed while photographing crime scenes. Also, I have been told that my very clear photographs of domestic violence injuries have caused defendants to plea, rather than let my images tell jurors a thousand words. I could easily be seen as a target for a cold dish of revenge. Again, let's all be careful out there!

My wife worked twenty-one years as a death scene investigator for the M.E., in one of the most-populous counties in the USA, so she could be a target, too. Again, let's all be careful out there.

[Rex G]

I ordered a new Mayflower plate carrier, and obtained one pristine pre-owned Velocity Systems Level III plate. Then, I bought a pre-owned First Spear Strandhogg MBAV with Velocity Systems IIIA soft armor in the front, rear, and sides. The Strandhogg system will, I believe, become my on-duty "tactical" vest, when I have two new Level III plates. The Strandhogg has separate pockets for the soft and hard armor, and the MBAV-cut soft armor panels are larger than the plates. I think the Mayflower carrier will be good for times I may want to wear plates alone, such as while attending rifle training, or perhaps I will re-home it with a colleague.

The plate I have now is "expired," but can be useful until I get a pair of new plates. The reason to buy two new plates, is so I can be exempted from being issued a pair of the horrendously heavy Level IV Hesco plates at the beginning of each shift, and also be exempt from having to wear my ill-fitting concealed armor under the uniform shirt. We are required to wear armor while on patrol, either concealed or outside the shirt, and it must be within the warranty period. We can wear a "tactical" vest if the plates are at least Level III, and it is suitably marked with "POLICE" lettering front and rear.

[jnc36rcpd]

Rex, did you obtain the standard NATO-sized soft body armor or was the SBA custom fit? I've grown frustrated with both our issue PT armor as well as my personally purchased Point Blank.

[Rex G]

Rex, did you obtain the standard NATO-sized soft body armor or was the SBA custom fit? I've grown frustrated with both our issue PT armor as well as my personally purchased Point Blank.

My First Spear Strandhogg plate carrier accomodates MBAV soft panels. "MBAV" is a specific cut and size, as I understand it. I am not sure if it is a military designation, or properietary to First Spear. Front and back MBAV panels, alone, cover an bit more than medium SAPI plates, so there is little side protection unless the cummerbund has its own armor panels. The First Spear Strandhogg cummerbund accommodates armor that is 6" high and about 11" long, so the side armor is overlapped, a bit, by the front and back panels. I have the matching front, back, and side panels, Level IIIA, made by Velocity Systems, a very reputable company.

You have my empathy. My new PD-issued concealed armor is cut too tall; if I sit, my belt shoves the bottom of the front panel, so that the top of the panel chokes me. (It is, just, tolerable while standing.) Getting my previously-issued, well-fitted, much-loved Safariland IIA armor back from Supply was not an allowed option, so I started wearing a somewhat-oversized Safariland Level II vest that I had, earlier, bought from a guy who was getting out of law enforcement. This was OK during the winter, but with the SE Texas summer being most of the year, it is time to do something. That is what started my consideration of the newly-approved option of warranteed Level III (or IV) armor plates worn in a "tactical" style vest. My personal plates would need to be approved by Supply Division, presumably with the documentation to show they are still under warranty.

We are now issued a pair of Level IV plates at the beginning of each shift, in a generic carrier. My gimpy knee protests overly much on the three flights of stairs in the parking garage. Plus, I do not know if, or how often, these issued plates have been dropped. My own tac vest, with my own lighter-weight III or "III+" plates, is preferable, because I can, then, opt-out of being issued the Level IV plates, and also opt-out of wearing the issued soft concealed armor.

My next hurdle is saving for the pair of plates. I may throw in the towel, and retire, due to multiple other factors in my work and private life, and not need the pair of warranteed plates. That is OK; soft IIIA coverage, supplemented by my out-of-warranty Level III plate, in front, will remain useful when stalking trespassers and poachers on family-owned land. I can add another plate, eventually. Actually, the Strandhogg can be donned rather quickly, and be good for a home-defense scenario, too.

[John Hearne]

Actually, the Strandhogg can be donned rather quickly, and be good for a home-defense scenario, too.

I LOVE the First Spear Tubes system. I'm playing around with the First Spear STT Plate Carrier that is sold by SKD Tac. I've timed it and I can go from no armor to armor on in 8 seconds. I just leave on side closed and stick my arm in and close that side. It beats the traditional lift the flap and insert the cumberbund system by miles. The only problem I see is that you are limited in the size range each option support. Going from just a t-shirt to multiple layers of clothing in the winter could be hard.

[jnc36rcpd]

Thanks for the reply, Rex. Velociy has a great reputation and is on the other side of the Capital Beltway from me. It might be worth a drive.

[Rex G]

Thanks for the reply, Rex. Velociy has a great reputation and is on the other side of the Capital Beltway from me. It might be worth a drive.

I wish we lived closer to the Virginia coast, so I could put my eager hands on some of the cool stuff I have been recently seeing while internettin', at Velocity Systems and elsewhere.

[Rex G]

I noticed that my new P.A.C.A. concealable vest carrier has two front pockets for additional inserts, the larger of which seems able to accomodate a 6"x8" insert. Paraclete offers a 6"x8" Speed Plate Plus, at 2.2 pounds (one kilo) in weight. I may well be speaking to my local cop shops this week. A smaller top-tier plate, always worn with my soft armor, (and out-of-sight,) might be a better next step, if anyone has them in stock. Donning exterior plates takes precious time, which a first-responder may not have, and of course, external armor will be obvious to an observant opponent.

This detour would not preclude my eventual completion of full Level III exterior plates/armor. 10"x12" is notably more area than 6"x8", and of course, the concealable carrier has no rear pockets for inserts. (OTOH, I just learned that another grandbaby is due, perhaps before the first one is walking, so I may be retiring sooner than I thought, being the only available grandparent to help with two infants.)

[Rex G]

I just ordered a Safariland/Protech 5"x9" IMPAC-RT Plus rifle plate, to insert into one of my concealed vest's plate pockets. While no mention is made of M855A1, it is advertised to stop three impacts of M193 or M855, or two impacts of 7.62x39 MSC, or one impact of 7.62 M80. This will always be there, concealed, while on patrol, so seemed a higher priority than buying a second 10"x12" plate for my externally-worn plate carrier.

[txdpd]

I just ordered a Safariland/Protech 5"x9" IMPAC-RT Plus rifle plate, to insert into one of my concealed vest's plate pockets. While no mention is made of M855A1, it is advertised to stop three impacts of M193 or M855, or two impacts of 7.62x39 MSC, or one impact of 7.62 M80. This will always be there, concealed, while on patrol, so seemed a higher priority than buying a second 10"x12" plate for my externally-worn plate carrier.

I've seen a couple officers with these. Quite a few have problems with the weight of the plates pulling the front of their vest down, and leaving quite a bit of real estate between the top of their hearts and base of the throats exposed. A plate in the back will counter balance, but I don't know anyone that used a back plate for very long due to discomfort. Our vest come with elastic cummerbunds but no one uses them due to poor design and discomfort. I'm not saying it won't work for you, but I'd keep a eye on vest fit throughout the day to make sure I wasn't losing coverage where I needed it.

[Sixgun_Symphony]

https://www.dfndrarmor.com/rifle-protection-2/


Doc or anyone...Thoughts??

[Rex G]

I've seen a couple officers with these. Quite a few have problems with the weight of the plates pulling the front of their vest down, and leaving quite a bit of real estate between the top of their hearts and base of the throats exposed. A plate in the back will counter balance, but I don't know anyone that used a back plate for very long due to discomfort. Our vest come with elastic cummerbunds but no one uses them due to poor design and discomfort. I'm not saying it won't work for you, but I'd keep a eye on vest fit throughout the day to make sure I wasn't losing coverage where I needed it.

Thanks for the heads-up. My front (concealed) vest panel tends to creep upward and choke me, so perhaps a bit of weight will help counter-act that. (This creeping-upward is not due to my belt pushing upward; I bought this "S" torso-length vest because my city-issued "L" length was being pushed upward into my neck by my belt.)

[Rex G]

My pre-owned Safariland/Pro-tech IMPAC-RT PLUS plate arrived. (My previous post was in error, regarding size; this one is actually 7"x9".) The weight does, indeed, as txdpd warned, pull the front panel of the (concealed) vest outward and downward, but, as I had hoped, it does so in a good way, only slightly, curing my P.A.C.A. concealed vest's tendency to ride-up and abrade my neck. Now, to hope the elastic straps maintain their integrity, though if not, they are easily replaced, as they are hook-and-loop at both ends, not sewn to the carrier.

I still plan to complete my set of externally-worn plates, which will be nice to have if there is time to take advantage of them.

Edited to add: The added weight and bulk of this IMPAC-RT plate will probably reduce the service life of my P.A.C.A. concealed front carrier, but it only has to last me a relatively short while, as my career is in its twilight.

[Default.mp3]

https://www.dfndrarmor.com/rifle-protection-2/


Doc or anyone...Thoughts??Any particular plate out of the line up you're looking at? First two look like your typical UHMWPE plates that don't offer any rated protection against M855, while the second two appears to be rather thick hybrid plates. Nothing special as best I can tell from a cursory glance.

Here's a new item being marketed: http://store.atarmor.com/product_p/vs-ptbl.htm

Specs look good, good brand and good reseller. Not sure who the OEM is, though.

[ffhounddog]

From what I saw at the factory they were making plates in Virginia. I don't know if it's only certain plates they make and contract out others but they provided me great customer service when I got my last set of plates from them 7 years ago.

[Rex G]

My pre-owned Safariland/Pro-tech IMPAC-RT PLUS plate arrived. (My previous post was in error, regarding size; this one is actually 7"x9".) The weight does, indeed, as txdpd warned, pull the front panel of the (concealed) vest outward and downward, but, as I had hoped, it does so in a good way, only slightly, curing my P.A.C.A. concealed vest's tendency to ride-up and abrade my neck. Now, to hope the elastic straps maintain their integrity, though if not, they are easily replaced, as they are hook-and-loop at both ends, not sewn to the carrier.

I still plan to complete my set of externally-worn plates, which will be nice to have if there is time to take advantage of them.

Edited to add: The added weight and bulk of this IMPAC-RT plate will probably reduce the service life of my P.A.C.A. concealed front carrier, but it only has to last me a relatively short while, as my career is in its twilight.

I am still using this IMPAC-RT plate, nightly, in the plate pocket of my concealed P.A.C.A. IIIA vest. The vest, and its straps, are still supporting the weight of the plate. (The pocket can accept a slightly larger 8x10" plate.)

[Rex G]

Shortly before Harvey came to visit, I completed my hard plate set-up. The carrier is a Mayflower APC with IIIA that I had bought/completed months ago, with Velocity Systems IIIA panels in the cummerbund side pockets, and Stealth Armor Systems 10x12 Kevlar IIIA plate backers. The recent addition was a set of pre-owned, but unfielded, Velocity Systems multi-curved III/IV ICW ceramic plates. I had not worn the carrier minus the hard plates, due to uniform regulations; a uniformed officer here can only wear a "tactical" external carrier if it contain Level III or IV plates; lesser levels must be worn concealed, or in one of the trendy carriers that appear to be part of the uniform shirt.

If I counted correctly, I wore this set-up for twelve consecutive nights, with the worst of the storm being one long 26-hour work period. Somewhere, I read that one cannot expect to wear Level IV armor for more than a few hours at a time. Well, I did a bit better than that. I am not sure I could have done it with my concealed Point Blank IIIA vest with Protech IMPAC-RT 7x9" plate, as that plate becomes really uncomfortable a few hours into an 8-hour shift.

I believe I will keep wearing this plate set-up for the remainder of the hurricane emergency 12-hours shifts, and may well keep using it indefinitely when we return to working eights. If the weight is factored-out, it irritates me less than my concealed armor, and if my knees can continue to bear the weight OK, I might as well wear the improved level of protection. I will not win any foot pursuits, but I have never been a sprinter, anyway.

Thanks to Harvey, there was no time to gradually break-in my 55-year-old body, as we went to 12-hour shifts, with our down time being at a staging area, and the unexpected level of flooding kept me from going home for several days to get my concealed armor.