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JDM
12-28-2014, 02:41 AM
Amongst LE patrol rifles?

I am not a cop and I know very little about what goes into making these sorts of decisions. What I do know is how incredibly easy it is to manipulate an AUG inside a vehicle.

To my un-initiated self, the bullpup seems like a fantastic patrol rifle. Why is it so uncommon in this role?

dbateman
12-28-2014, 03:55 AM
Bullpups are real good options for people who aren't going to be shooting a lot.

tanner
12-28-2014, 04:05 AM
Because the AR-15 excels at pretty much everything else besides manipulations in vehicles, and it isn't really all that bad at that.

The AR-15s (like Nyeti has said in other posts) are like Microsoft Windows. Tons of parts available, both factory and aftermarket. Very easy to wrench on. Cheaper than bullpups. Part of the US military supply chain.

Administratively, ARs are by far the easiest choice.

Artemas
12-28-2014, 08:20 AM
There was talk around a year ago about PA State Troopers going to the Tavor, but I have not heard/seen anything thing since.

John Hearne
12-28-2014, 09:44 AM
Given the large number already in private hands and their status as the U.S. service weapon, the AR-15/M-16 platform is the default combative rifle in this country. There are a lot of folks who are already "trained" on the system and agencies aren't willing to give that up.

There also seems to be a cultural bias against bullpups in the U.S.

gtmtnbiker98
12-28-2014, 10:14 AM
Training! A large portion of LEOs are former military and for those that aren't, there are severals people available to assist in training.

Dagga Boy
12-28-2014, 10:21 AM
Bullpups are real good options for people who aren't going to be shooting a lot.

How do you figure that? My AUG's have offered as good or better long term high round count reliability as any of my AR's and will run better than most of the AR' s you see. Did you read this somewhere or from personal experience and with what system?

As far as the LE side....constant import issues and lack of familiarity. See post quoted for what I am talking about.

czech6
12-28-2014, 10:48 AM
The military background factor. Cost and availability.

Most current patrol rifle programs are based on material that was developed following the Hollywood shoot out in 97and free 1033 rifles had a large influence on what was going to be used. At that time LAPD wielded a huge influence on policing, and if LAPD had M16's, there were going to be a lot of other agencies that followed suit.

Lon
12-28-2014, 10:59 AM
I can think of several reasons. First and foremost, when LE started getting back into the the rifle market for patrol after North Hollywood and Columbine, there weren't really any readily available, viable choices. Personally, I think if a company other than an AR company wanted to dominate the LE patrol rifle market that was there opportunity. Now the AR is too entrenched in the LE market for anything else to get a foothold, barring the .gov from passing out a bullpup like candy.

Second is cost. I haven't done a whole lot of research into Bullpup prices, but from what I have seen, a dept. with budget issues (which most of us have) are going to take that into consideration. A good LE AR rifle is cheaper than a bullpup and has a huge aftermarket of parts and accessories.

Those are the two biggest. Most LE admin I know would nix any proposal to switch platforms without a really good reason. To them, being a better platform to use in vehicles isn't enough.

LtDave
12-28-2014, 11:00 AM
Pricing. IMHO that is the killer right there. ARs can be had much cheaper than any of the bullpups.

JDM
12-28-2014, 12:22 PM
Thanks for the responses. I had not considered the price difference.

Dagga Boy
12-28-2014, 12:32 PM
Simple timing. Prior to the 89 ban, and later bans, the AR was not the most dominate rifle used by LE as it is today. US Customs ran the AUG, the HK guns were very popular, including at LAPD who used the HK 33 extensively along with a large number of LE agencies throughout the country. The 94 ban really sealed the deal. Had those import bans not occurred, the choices would be far greater.

Having talked to a lot of folks who actually ran the AUG's at both Customs and Phoenix PD, you will find they were very well liked. I was recently at Phoenix PD's firearm unit teaching and their Firearms guys were commenting that the older guys that had AUG's really did not want to give them up and tried to hang on to them as long as possible.

If other systems had the resources to grow those systems in the US, the market would be very competitive. You will note that now that many companies are making their guns in the US, inroads are being made again. A lot of the guys at LAPD Metro and other places are using HK 416's. Steyr is finally in a pretty good place as far as having a great company making the guns in the U.S. Probably too late for any mass acceptance for both the AUG and the TAVOR for US LE where to much has already been invested in training and with budgets slashed to the bare minimum and the b.s. "anti-militarization" crap, I don't see a whole lot of progress or changes occurring any time soon. It is essentially a case of the guns not being bad, or better suited to a domestic urban LE mission, but a case of convenience and timing. Personally, if I was the guy running marketing at Steyr, I would be pushing the "It's not an AR/M16" campaign with all the current hate for LEO's using anything the military does. If I was outfitting a "Non-militarized" P.D. the AUG would be at top of my list for a police carbine that does not look like what is being used by the military. On paper, and with no emotion involved, the AUG is a near ideal patrol carbine for urban LE use within the parameters of how they are used.

I just took my AUG A3 along with one of my AR's to a LE shooting demo for the new Aimpoint T2 optic. The AUG was a hit amongst the SWAT cops there. Most had never seen one, but loved the thing once they began running and shooting it. Again, exposure and culture.

Beat Trash
12-28-2014, 02:01 PM
The military background factor. Cost and availability.

Most current patrol rifle programs are based on material that was developed following the Hollywood shoot out in 97and free 1033 rifles had a large influence on what was going to be used. At that time LAPD wielded a huge influence on policing, and if LAPD had M16's, there were going to be a lot of other agencies that followed suit.

All of this applies. In addition, I might add that for many agencies like mine, it was an uphill battle to convince senior command staff that a Patrol Rifle program, outside of SWAT was needed, wasn't going to offend the public, and wan't going to turn into a liability nightmare. Especially for urban and inter-city agencies. This was an easier sale to command staff when discussing the same weapon platform that is already being fielded by other agencies, to wit the AR platform.

You can't understatement the cost factor. Buying a couple of rifles, not such a big deal, But buying 100+ and the difference is substantial. I also think that there is merit to common training of military veterans who are with your agency.

I carry a personally owned, departmentally approved AR while at work. Our newest vehicles (Ford Explorer cross overs) are the first in the fleet to be outfitted with duel weapon mounts up front for shotgun and rifle. Prior to this, rifles were kept in the trunk. I do not know if these types of mounts exist for a bull pup such as a Tavor or an AUG. That is another consideration that must be taken into account.

Chuck Haggard
12-28-2014, 04:08 PM
On top of the noted issues and considerations above, only one bullpup I am aware of allows one to shoot bilaterally as needed, and that is the FN2000. That FN has the ergonomics of a suitcase and is a PITA to clear if a stoppage does happen.

jnc36rcpd
12-28-2014, 04:20 PM
Artemas, I believe Pennsylvania Capitol Police did go with the Tavor. I don't know if PSP joined in that purchase,

nyeti, interesting the concept of selling an AUG as a non-military weapon. Only a few years ago, I pitched the AR-15. One of the arguments was that it was seen as an American rifle and was carried by the military as well as law enforcement. Of course, since Malvo and Mohammad had recently shot up the landscape just outside my jurisdiction, I probably could have sold the chief on Stinger missiles.

If your Customs buddies are wondering what happened to their AUG rifles, I believe at least some ended up with the National Institutes of Standards and Technology Police. At least I saw some (with an odd VFG) in their station a few years ago.

czech6
12-28-2014, 04:38 PM
duel weapon mounts up front for shotgun and rifle

Those must be mounts for fighting guns.


On top of the noted issues and considerations above, only one bullpup I am aware of allows one to shoot bilaterally as needed, and that is the FN2000. That FN has the ergonomics of a suitcase and is a PITA to clear if a stoppage does happen.

For the most cops and agencies, having a weapon that can be shot on either side sounds good in theory, but generally isn't a skill that is realistically taught, trained or practiced. It's a good skill to have, but on a general issue agency gun it'd be pretty low on my list of considerations. Guys shoot so much better on the strong side, that I think the time is better spent on other things. I shot an AUG clone with a brass deflector, it wasn't too terrible off hand. The Tavor I shot ejected brass almost 90 degrees and was shootable, the brass to face was unpleasant and the gas blow back was pretty bad, but in a pinch it would work. I think due better to weight distribution, the bull pups would be significantly more workable in an one hand, off side, injured officer scenario. There are very few guys that are strong enough to run an AR one handed on the off side for more than a moment and maintain decent accuracy.

Lon
12-28-2014, 04:55 PM
For the most cops and agencies, having a weapon that can be shot on either side sounds good in theory, but generally isn't a skill that is realistically taught, trained or practiced.

Don't forget leftys. Pool rifles (like car rifles) need to be able to be used by anyone driving, regardless of whether they're RH or LH.

dbateman
12-28-2014, 04:56 PM
How do you figure that? My AUG's have offered as good or better long term high round count reliability as any of my AR's and will run better than most of the AR' s you see. Did you read this somewhere or from personal experience and with what system?

As far as the LE side....constant import issues and lack of familiarity. See post quoted for what I am talking about.


Personal opinion of mine and a lot of other Aussies who were issued them.

There's a reason our SF and LE don't use them when we manufacture them in country.

Maple Syrup Actual
12-28-2014, 05:05 PM
Since we've covered all the serious stuff, here's my half-serious take: the bullpup is inherently unAmerican.

They're a clever but overcomplicated piece of engineering with a lousy trigger. They're fundamentally Teutonic.


There are too many Americans who shoot to ever embrace the bullpup. You have enough people who know what triggers are supposed to feel like that they will never make it in the US.

czech6
12-28-2014, 05:15 PM
Don't forget leftys. Pool rifles (like car rifles) need to be able to be used by anyone driving, regardless of whether they're RH or LH.

Lefty schmefty, first it's accommodate the left handed shooters and let them carry left handed holsters, and then rifles they can shoot. Next thing you know the lady officers want to wear pants, carry a gun and drive a squad car.

The bull pups can be set up for left handed shooters. IMO pooled weapons need to be checked in and out of an armory at every shift. Even in a police parking lot, leaving rifles and shotguns in cars is inviting theft and accountability problems.

Dagga Boy
12-28-2014, 05:51 PM
Personal opinion of mine and a lot of other Aussies who were issued them.

There's a reason our SF and LE don't use them when we manufacture them in country.

And if they had bought Steyr's instead of making them themselves, they would have been much better off. If we listened to every American GI about the M-16, it would sound VERY similar. It's like here........special forces use the HK 416 because the M4 is SOOOO BAAAAADDDD. Same with the SCAR. I have talked to actually SME on the system from Australia, and it is a different story, and most will place blame on the manufacturing issues as opposed to the design. I am pretty tight with the SME for the Austrian SF on the AUG, and you will hear a very different story on longevity. Same with those Customs guns that were heavily used and shot a ton with very little support. Same with Phoenix. I have found that sticking with the stock Austrian AUG and not messing with them, they tend to be very much like the GEN 2 Glock......efficiently simple and reliable.

Triggers.......again, I remember when the Glock trigger was considered totally unworkable.

Again, the window for the AUG and other guns was long closed by the Feds and stupid import bans (protecting the US gun companies while screwing the foreign ones like the 68 GCA......yet the foriegn companies are "anti 2nd Amendment:mad:).

For me......I have enough Colt and LMT guns that work (and a custom Centurion Arms). I am familiar with the AR, use the AR, pushed the AR for LE LONG before it was cool (and it was shot down by our "I was in NAM" brass who considered them totally unreliable:confused:) and have trained hundreds of officers on them and deployed them extensively in the LE world. I "get it". With that said, now that I am making my own decisions I am usually carrying an AUG and my home gun is an AUG. For others, as we addressed elsewhere, the AR pistol with a SIG brace is the gun of choice and I am an idiot with all my concern's about legalities and things. I am very okay with the internet thinking I am an idiot.........VERY okay.

orionz06
12-28-2014, 05:58 PM
Since we've covered all the serious stuff, here's my half-serious take: the bullpup is inherently unAmerican.

They're a clever but overcomplicated piece of engineering with a lousy trigger. They're fundamentally Teutonic.
.

I would agree. Put a bunch of engineers who don't shoot into a room and tell them to design something without a clue as to the needs of the user or how it's used and you'll get another bullpup.

Dagga Boy
12-28-2014, 11:17 PM
I would agree. Put a bunch of engineers who don't shoot into a room and tell them to design something without a clue as to the needs of the user or how it's used and you'll get another bullpup.

Or.....maybe guys who have actually worked in tight urban areas. Note the Israeli's left both the Ak system and AR for a bullpup that works well for those deployed from vehicles into tight urban areas. Same with the Irish army. We can laugh at the Malaysians, but this is an area that have bought a system for use in tropical climate, but deployed extensively in Africa with the UN (until a business falling out with Steyr). We are in a very much "vehicle based" world where the ability to deploy and work from the protection of vehicles and aircraft is critical.

I would suggest that "yes" there is a ton of bias here for things we don't like and are not like what we have always done.....the same thing that got us the M16A2 and those A2 sights....how is the 20" rifle working out? The 20" long stocked rifle with complex 800 meter sights is what the engineers did when they listened to the "needs of the users".......just sayin.

JDM
12-28-2014, 11:26 PM
Or.....maybe guys who have actually worked in tight urban areas. Note the Israeli's left both the Ak system and AR for a bullpup that works well for those deployed from vehicles into tight urban areas. Same with the Irish army. We can laugh at the Malaysians, but this is an area that have bought a system for use in tropical climate, but deployed extensively in Africa with the UN. We are in a very much "vehicle based" world where the ability to deploy and work from the protection of vehicles and aircraft is critical.

I would suggest that "yes" there is a ton of bias here for things we don't like and are not like what we have always done.....the same thing that got us the M16A2 and those A2 sights....how is the 20" rifle working out? The 20" long stocked rifle with complex 800 meter sights is what the engineers did when they listened to the "needs of the users".......just sayin.

Not only did the Israelis stick with a BP, they are, if I am not mistaken, standardizing on the X95 variant which has a 13" barrel and and OAL of 23".

I'd like an X95 :).

Dagga Boy
12-28-2014, 11:31 PM
In the big picture, logistics and politics make a ton of these decisions more than tool for a job.

JDM
12-28-2014, 11:49 PM
In the big picture, logistics and politics make a ton of these decisions more than tool for a job.

What an unfortunate thing.

dbateman
12-29-2014, 05:05 AM
And if they had bought Steyr's instead of making them themselves, they would have been much better off. If we listened to every American GI about the M-16, it would sound VERY similar. It's like here........special forces use the HK 416 because the M4 is SOOOO BAAAAADDDD. Same with the SCAR. I have talked to actually SME on the system from Australia, and it is a different story, and most will place blame on the manufacturing issues as opposed to the design. I am pretty tight with the SME for the Austrian SF on the AUG, and you will hear a very different story on longevity. Same with those Customs guns that were heavily used and shot a ton with very little support. Same with Phoenix. I have found that sticking with the stock Austrian AUG and not messing with them, they tend to be very much like the GEN 2 Glock......efficiently simple and reliable.

Triggers.......again, I remember when the Glock trigger was considered totally unworkable.

Again, the window for the AUG and other guns was long closed by the Feds and stupid import bans (protecting the US gun companies while screwing the foreign ones like the 68 GCA......yet the foriegn companies are "anti 2nd Amendment:mad:).

For me......I have enough Colt and LMT guns that work (and a custom Centurion Arms). I am familiar with the AR, use the AR, pushed the AR for LE LONG before it was cool (and it was shot down by our "I was in NAM" brass who considered them totally unreliable:confused:) and have trained hundreds of officers on them and deployed them extensively in the LE world. I "get it". With that said, now that I am making my own decisions I am usually carrying an AUG and my home gun is an AUG. For others, as we addressed elsewhere, the AR pistol with a SIG brace is the gun of choice and I am an idiot with all my concern's about legalities and things. I am very okay with the internet thinking I am an idiot.........VERY okay.



You have completely misinterpreted my statement...

Yeah we had manufacturing issues 20 something years ago. I wasn't referring to that.

You know an Aussie "sme" ? Cool story dude, every second person you run into claims to know somone in SAS or Commandos. Don't start rabbiting on about SMEs unless you want to come across as a tryhard.

You trained a few people ? Man there's so many people instructing that shouldn't even be teaching people to push broom it ain't funny... Those that can do. Those that can't teach.

If you're driving around in ya automobile not looking for trouble a bullpup is a good choice if you're impersonating a rock not so much.

But hey what would I know anyway. I'm not an sme.

John Hearne
12-29-2014, 10:56 AM
You trained a few people ? Man there's so many people instructing that shouldn't even be teaching people to push broom it ain't funny... Those that can do. Those that can't teach.


http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc299/falconwagon62/smiley-face-eating-popcorn.png

Haraise
12-29-2014, 11:00 AM
The 20" long stocked rifle with complex 800 meter sights is what the engineers did when they listened to the "needs of the users".......just sayin.

Have any details on how the design of the M16 was primarily driven by the end user? I haven't seen this, in my research through SALVO, SPIW or DTIC paperwork.

KeeFus
12-29-2014, 11:04 AM
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc299/falconwagon62/smiley-face-eating-popcorn.png

Beat me to it.

Lon
12-29-2014, 11:10 AM
Have any details on how the design of the M16 was primarily driven by the end user? I haven't seen this, in my research through SALVO, SPIW or DTIC paperwork.

I won't swear to this, but IIRC the A2 mods (longer stock and 800M sights) were a direct request from one of the services (USMC maybe?) marksmanship people. Great for Camp Perry matches, not so much for combat.

Dagga Boy
12-29-2014, 11:19 AM
You have completely misinterpreted my statement...

Yeah we had manufacturing issues 20 something years ago. I wasn't referring to that.

You know an Aussie "sme" ? Cool story dude, every second person you run into claims to know somone in SAS or Commandos. Don't start rabbiting on about SMEs unless you want to come across as a tryhard.

You trained a few people ? Man there's so many people instructing that shouldn't even be teaching people to push broom it ain't funny... Those that can do. Those that can't teach.

If you're driving around in ya automobile not looking for trouble a bullpup is a good choice if you're impersonating a rock not so much.

But hey what would I know anyway. I'm not an sme.

You're right, just a never been try-hard poser. You win the Internet.

Dagga Boy
12-29-2014, 11:22 AM
I won't swear to this, but IIRC the A2 mods (longer stock and 800M sights) were a direct request from one of the services (USMC maybe?) marksmanship people. Great for Camp Perry matches, not so much for combat.

This is my exact point. Most of the end users don't know what they want. All depends on who you talk to. This is the part where "politics", both internal and external fit in.

This also fits in to the original post (imagine that on P-F). Why are the bullpup a not more prevelent system in LE...politics. Forget abilities and applicability, we have to use it because it's what the military uses..?????. Most are "familiar" with it???? It reloads faster (find the critical speed reload situation in US LE after 30-40 rounds of 5.56 were fired and the reload speed was the deciding issue in the fight). Heck, even the guy who doesn't like them and thinks I am a try hard says they are better for driving around in a car versus being a rock....you know, US cop stuff.

The reality is this, if I were designing a ground up "Police Carbine" based on actual mission needs, with no pre conceived ideas and just built for the purpose of Police Patrol Rifle, it would likely end up being a 6.8 SPC Bullpup of some variation.

orionz06
12-29-2014, 11:33 AM
So they don't know they want a bullpup?

What about the smaller groups that are able to buy whatever they want?



All of this is not to say that bullpups are wrong. If that's what you're reading you're letting your emotions interfere.

czech6
12-29-2014, 11:37 AM
The M16A2 was exactly what it was meant to be, a combat rifle designed by POGs on the drill field and romantics at the KD range in a stagnant, missionless, late 70's Marine Corps. (There were some other chefs in the kitchen sprinkling fairy dust requirements too.) To that extent the M16A2 was largely a success. Which isn't surprising given the history of the Marine Corps and letting the wrong people decide on service rifles, it mirrors the mindset that lead up to the Marines landing on Guadalcanal with bolt action Springfields instead of Garands and why they adopted the long barrel, fixed stock M16A4 despite combat "end user" demands for a collapsible stock and short barrel.

It really highlights the importance of identifying the correct group of "end users" for a product to provide specs for a product. Engineers usually take most of the blame for a screwed up product but are rarely the problem.

KevinB
12-29-2014, 11:49 AM
Aussie SASR sends folks out to line units to teach them why the AUG sucks...
I know a few of them and no one I know would touch and AUG.

Heck AUSSOF writes specifications to ensure the AUG type guns cant compete...

Glenn E. Meyer
12-29-2014, 11:55 AM
Some butter for John's popcorn.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/01/gun-trouble/383508/?single_page=true

The debate that never ends.

orionz06
12-29-2014, 12:00 PM
Some butter for John's popcorn.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/01/gun-trouble/383508/?single_page=true

The debate that never ends.

Grip pod, EOTech, and AFG?!?!?

No words.

Haraise
12-29-2014, 12:03 PM
Grip pod, EOTech, and AFG?!?!?

No words.

Bumpfire stock is what got me.

orionz06
12-29-2014, 12:07 PM
I closed the window too fast to notice.

Dagga Boy
12-29-2014, 12:11 PM
Aussie SASR sends folks out to line units to teach them why the AUG sucks...
I know a few of them and no one I know would touch and AUG.

Heck AUSSOF writes specifications to ensure the AUG type guns cant compete...

The one group of folks I have not talked to about the AUG are the Aussie SAS guys.

I have totally accepted that the bullpup is not going to happen in LE or the military. The reasons are a mix of timing, circumstance, and institutional traditions. Got it. Non-emotional....I have run both in te urban LE type environment and prefer the AUG. Doesn't mean I can't, won't or don't know how to run the AR. Likely, I have probably hunted more felons with the AR in the US than most to base MY OPINION on. How many people making "non-emotional" observations have actually run an AUG or Tavor in the US professionally?

This is a lot like the Shotgun. I love the things. My business partner doesn't. Doesn't mean he hasn't run them, can't run them can't teach on them or hasn't hunted humans and animals with them....just means he prefers the AR. I am in a similar boat, with both the AUG and the 12ga. versus the AR. In the end, just tools and we need to make them work for us for the right job.

David Armstrong
12-29-2014, 12:18 PM
I won't swear to this, but IIRC the A2 mods (longer stock and 800M sights) were a direct request from one of the services (USMC maybe?) marksmanship people. Great for Camp Perry matches, not so much for combat.
Depends on the combat. Remember, much of our doctrine at the time was based on the idea we would be fighting a traditional war with someone like the Soviets involving a fair amount of long-range shooting, and we had experienced a lot of functioning problems with the short ARs. Of course, we moved into a LIC battle framework with emphasis on urban combat and the bugs got worked out of the short barrel which sort of ruined that whole idea<G>! Personally I still prefer the 20" gun for my needs, although given my druthers I'd go back to the A1 design. Regarding why the bullpup didn't catch on, my $.02:
1. Cost was significantly higher.
2. Familiarity with design of the more traditional gun.
3. Limited availability during initial growth of long guns for LE.
4. Reliability. Until recently the only thing that could be counted on, IMO, was the AUG.
5. Ergonomics. For many the bullpup design is just not as user friendly/comfortable. I liked my AUG and wish I hadn't sold it, but if it was a push come to shove situation I would take my AR over the AUG for 90% of whatever might be coming. I've tried some of the new designs out there and just don't find them to be all that comfortable to use and I've heard that from many others.

Dagga Boy
12-29-2014, 12:44 PM
Good observations David. The only issue I found is the ergonomics. The key is to NOT try to run it like the AR.
The reason I have sought out guys in other countries or places that actually use and like the system is to find out how I run them, versus being a try-hard. It is what professional instructors do....seek knowledge. Going to a typical class with an AUG is sort of futile to learn much versus just running AR drills with an AUG. I have grown to love the ergonomic as of the AUG.

Here is one thing I totally give the AR and why it is a better choice in many military environments...dumping lots of accessories on them. I have a DBAL on one of my AUG's....not optimal. Start hanging sophisticated IR stuff, grenade launchers, etc, the long front rail gun is the way to go. Again tools. These days, I am running a stripped down gun with a red dot, sling and small white light. I don't need a ton of free rail space for that. It is also typical of most LE set ups.

KevinB
12-29-2014, 12:48 PM
Their biggest issue with the AUG is cross shoulder shooting. Now I will grant that requirement is limited in LE, but it does pop up.

I really wanted to like bullpups -- and I trust someday that someone will make one that has all the desired features without the cons.

JAD
12-29-2014, 12:50 PM
Nyeti, please take a picture of your cross side technique. I saw it first hand in Irving and it baked my noodle pretty good.

David Armstrong
12-30-2014, 11:48 AM
Good observations David. The only issue I found is the ergonomics. The key is to NOT try to run it like the AR.
The reason I have sought out guys in other countries or places that actually use and like the system is to find out how I run them, versus being a try-hard. It is what professional instructors do....seek knowledge. Going to a typical class with an AUG is sort of futile to learn much versus just running AR drills with an AUG. I have grown to love the ergonomic as of the AUG.
Of all the bullpups I've tried, I did like the ergos of the AUG best. Some of the others have felt much like a 2x8 board. I still find the AR preferable as do others, but for a different group of others various other designs, including the bullpups, may be better. Probably not so much an "issue" as a "difference" based on different body sizes and builds. As an example, I find the collapsible stocks on ARs to be a poor fit for me, while the fixed A1 stock is nearly perfect.

dbateman
12-30-2014, 06:32 PM
This is my exact point. Most of the end users don't know what they want. All depends on who you talk to. This is the part where "politics", both internal and external fit in.

This also fits in to the original post (imagine that on P-F). Why are the bullpup a not more prevelent system in LE...politics. Forget abilities and applicability, we have to use it because it's what the military uses..?????. Most are "familiar" with it???? It reloads faster (find the critical speed reload situation in US LE after 30-40 rounds of 5.56 were fired and the reload speed was the deciding issue in the fight). Heck, even the guy who doesn't like them and thinks I am a try hard says they are better for driving around in a car versus being a rock....you know, US cop stuff.

The reality is this, if I were designing a ground up "Police Carbine" based on actual mission needs, with no pre conceived ideas and just built for the purpose of Police Patrol Rifle, it would likely end up being a 6.8 SPC Bullpup of some variation.


To be clear it's not that I don't like them, they do exactly what they're designed to do.

Chuck Whitlock
01-05-2015, 10:16 AM
I won't swear to this, but IIRC the A2 mods (longer stock and 800M sights) were a direct request from one of the services (USMC maybe?) marksmanship people. Great for Camp Perry matches, not so much for combat.


This is my exact point. Most of the end users don't know what they want. All depends on who you talk to. This is the part where "politics", both internal and external fit in.

Reminds me of a Pat Rogers article, where he mentioned a senior USMC Non-Com poo-pooing the idea of standardizing on the M4.......because they couldn't do close order drill with it.

Chuck Whitlock
01-05-2015, 10:19 AM
The reality is this, if I were designing a ground up "Police Carbine" based on actual mission needs, with no pre conceived ideas and just built for the purpose of Police Patrol Rifle, it would likely end up being a 6.8 SPC Bullpup of some variation.

An AUG in 6.8 SPC?

I'll be in my bunk.

LittleLebowski
01-05-2015, 10:32 AM
The M16A2 was exactly what it was meant to be, a combat rifle designed by POGs on the drill field and romantics at the KD range in a stagnant, missionless, late 70's Marine Corps. (There were some other chefs in the kitchen sprinkling fairy dust requirements too.) To that extent the M16A2 was largely a success. Which isn't surprising given the history of the Marine Corps and letting the wrong people decide on service rifles, it mirrors the mindset that lead up to the Marines landing on Guadalcanal with bolt action Springfields instead of Garands and why they adopted the long barrel, fixed stock M16A4 despite combat "end user" demands for a collapsible stock and short barrel.

It really highlights the importance of identifying the correct group of "end users" for a product to provide specs for a product. Engineers usually take most of the blame for a screwed up product but are rarely the problem.

I believe that the Garand failed Marine Corps reliability testing.

Andrew E
01-12-2015, 07:01 AM
I believe that the Garand failed Marine Corps reliability testing.

I wish I could verify this, but I could swear I remember reading something wherein an officer later commented, after seeing the Garand used in several beach assaults (which were the ostensible reason for the Garand's failure--the salt bath and sand portions) that "troops who were on the beach that long became casualties before their rifles ever reached the point of failure."