HK VP9 vs Sig 320

[UNK]

I read on another thread here that the HK VP9 Sig 320 and a Walther??? were approximately the same in the trigger department. As I haven't seen much about the Sig 320 I went online searching for reviews and it seems like the Sig 320 trigger is liked more than the HK trigger when they are shot side by side. I was wondering if anyone from this site had the opportunity to shoot them side by side on a timer and if so what the thoughts were.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I will say, as soon as they come out in .45 ACP, I'll be all over it.

[1slow]

The HK VP9 or the Sig 320 ?

[UNK]

Has to be the 320.

The HK VP9 or the Sig 320 ?

[gtmtnbiker98]

The HK VP9 or the Sig 320 ?
320. It will be a decade before the VP45.

[LSP972]

320. It will be a decade before the VP45.

Infidel! Brand S???

Better keep that quiet over there on HKPro…:D

.

[Mike C]

Haha, LSP972's right. You'd better be careful gtmtnbiker98 they'll disown you. Heck you might even be burnt at the stake.

[HopetonBrown]

320. It will be a decade before the VP45.

Interestingly, a VP40 and VP45 are listed on the Maryland State Police website (https://www.mdsp.org/Organization/SupportServicesBureau/LicensingDivision/MainLicensingPage/HandgunRoster/HandgunModels.aspx?manu=18059).

[gtmtnbiker98]

Interestingly, a VP40 and VP45 are listed on the Maryland State Police website (https://www.mdsp.org/Organization/SupportServicesBureau/LicensingDivision/MainLicensingPage/HandgunRoster/HandgunModels.aspx?manu=18059).huh?

[psalms144.1]

I haven't been lucky enough to actually lay hands on a VP9 yet, so I can't do a direct comparison. I've been a Glock shooter for several decades, though, so I'll compare the P320 that I dry fired at the LGS to that.

The P320's trigger is DISTINCTLY heavier "breaking" than the Glock - the sample I played with had light, smooth take up (not as "springy" feeling as the Glock), then a DEFINITE wall that broke cleanly, but heavily. I didn't notice much if any overtravel.

Reset on the P320 is sick - VERY short, positive both in feel and in sound. If you're a "ride the reset" type of shooter, you will LOVE this trigger. Honestly, I didn't think anyone could beat Glock in the reset game, but the P320 is definitely "better" than the Glock in this aspect.

If the P320 Carry was closer in grip length to the G19, I'd have already bought one. But, that extra 3/10" in grip length worries me - it's not much shorter than the P30 that I found to be just "bigger" enough to be a PITA to conceal...

Regards,

Kevin

[JHC]

I've got 500 Rd through a new full size 320. I'm over 15 years on Glock. To echo Psalms point the reset is pretty damn short. I've found it remarkably easy to hit with.

My small handed shooters manage the med grip easier than a Glock and reach the controls easier. I've been surprised at the ease of shooting it fast and have found overall faster Bill Drills capable than with my Glocks. I am not sure why.

So far on a few other drills and plate racks, pretty even vs a G17. Trigger feels lighter but scales a pound heavier than my minus connector Glocks to my surprise. We think recoil feels lighter vs G17.

I'm pretty impressed so far.

[fixer]

After recently only handling and dry firing these two, I have a strong preference for the 320.

[BaiHu]

After a 3 month hiatus from shooting, I went to the range today. I've spent at least 3 years solidly shooting P30 V3 and then the last year V1. I've shot my buddy's PPQ and I've enjoyed it, but was not keen on its muzzle movement. It seemed "too light" and therefore moved too much for me. Today, knowing I'm a hammer/HK fan, they rented the VP9 to see "If Mikey like."

I don't know if it was "first try-itis" or what, but I out shot my P30 immediately on slow fire groups as well as a change up target with the 1" square, 2" circle and 3x5 card. Although I couldn't time my runs in the indoor range, it was obvious to 3 of us that I was making hits faster on the VP9 and missing slower on my P30. If only it took P30 mags and fit a P30 holster 😆

Yup, other than the lack of hammer, this is quite tempting. I won't dump my P30s, but I might be adding this to my small stable in the next 6 months if the itch doesn't leave me sooner.

ETA:
My impressions:
1. Muzzle rise is better than P30 and PPQ.
2. Sights out of the box were fine. Even on a rental that's been abused.
3. Trigger and reset were great.
4. Very soft shooting to me.
5. Easy sight tracking even though I run HDs on the P30.

[JBP55]

After a 3 month hiatus from shooting, I went to the range today. I've spent at least 3 years solidly shooting P30 V3 and then the last year V1. I've shot my buddy's PPQ and I've enjoyed it, but was not keen on its muzzle movement. It seemed "too light" and therefore moved too much for me. Today, knowing I'm a hammer/HK fan, they rented the VP9 to see "If Mikey like."

I don't know if it was "first try-itis" or what, but I out shot my P30 immediately on slow fire groups as well as a change up target with the 1" square, 2" circle and 3x5 card. Although I couldn't time my runs in the indoor range, it was obvious to 3 of us that I was making hits faster on the VP9 and missing slower on my P30. If only it took P30 mags and fit a P30 holster ��

Yup, other than the lack of hammer, this is quite tempting. I won't dump my P30s, but I might be adding this to my small stable in the next 6 months if the itch doesn't leave me sooner.

ETA:
My impressions:
1. Muzzle rise is better than P30 and PPQ.
2. Sights out of the box were fine. Even on a rental that's been abused.
3. Trigger and reset were great.
4. Very soft shooting to me.
5. Easy sight tracking even though I run HDs on the P30.

The VP9 uses the same magazines as the P30 and Some of the holsters for a P30 work with a VP9.

[BaiHu]

That was a sarcastic face. It's what's making this too tempting.

[UNK]

I went to one LGS and handled the VP9 then another store to handle the 320 C. The 320 C is what has piqued my interest. I'll have to see if I can rent and shoot them side by side.

[Dagga Boy]

BaiHu, you found sort of what I did. I still love the P30 LEM, and it is one of the best ergonomic guns for me. The reality is that it is likely a better pistol for me as a daily carry gun at this stage in life as anything else (with the P2000 LEM as a close second). It is a simple situation in that with the VP9 you get all the P30 "good" as far as reliability, mechanical accuaracy, QC, etc.....with a trigger that requires less work to shoot well. The P30 LEM is still what I consider to be one of the best pistols made for managing a high stress encounters, and problems. With that said, the VP 9 has a more forgiving trigger for "shooting problems".

[BaiHu]

Given that I can't carry in my own state, my thought would be to keep the LEM as my carry gun in states I can carry in and use the VP9 as a house gun since I'll never need to draw in my home.

[JSGlock34]

I have no direct experience (other than fondling a P320 at the gun store) with the SIG, but I've owned both the VP9 and PPQ and shot them extensively. I wrote below a few months back in another thread but I'll repeat my findings here.

It is really no wonder that whenever the PPQ is brought up the HK VP9 is not far behind. The PPQ and VP9 are unquestionably very similar pistols and therefore invite direct comparisons. In terms of dimensions, controls (especially the PPQ M1), capacity, style - they resemble each other closely. I even used a Raven Phantom molded for the PPQ as a range holster until I acquired a dedicated holster for the VP9. It was these very similarities that drove me to eliminate one so as to focus my efforts on improving with the other.

From that perspective, I recently sold my Walther PPQ in favor of focusing on my VP9. I found the VP9 more 'shootable' than the PPQ. Both pistols are very accurate and come out of the box with terrific triggers (in both categories they are a cut above Glock), but I find the VP9 trigger better suited for carry. The PPQ trigger is very light with an extremely short reset - and little margin for error. The PPQ felt top heavy in comparison to the VP9. I can get a higher grip on the VP9, and whereas I found the PPQ somewhat 'snappy', the VP9 is unremarkable in recoil. While the PPQ grip is excellent, there is no question that the VP9/P30 grip is the best available.

I'll note that I had two early malfunctions with the VP9 (both shooting support hand only with weak Blazer ammunition) but haven't had any further issues in over 2000 subsequent rounds. The PPQ never malfunctioned. Both the PPQ and VP9 are high quality pistols and merit consideration.

[WDW]

Bud's has NIB 320's w/2 mags for $470 right now with the make an offer feature

[BaiHu]

JSG, my thoughts exactly about PPQ and VP9. Thanks for the details.

[JBP55]

Bud's has NIB 320's w/2 mags for $470 right now with the make an offer feature
Just checked Buds and they are showing $543.

[JMorse]

I can't get my hands on a 320 with 10 round mags, so that kills it for us here in California. I was tempted, too.

[HopetonBrown]

I see plenty in California. You just have the dealer block the mags.

From my Motorola StarTAC.

[WDW]

Just checked Buds and they are showing $543.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_28/products_id/93510/SIG+320F9B+320+9MM+STRKR+BLK+14R
Your search fu is weak young grasshopper

[Mitchell, Esq.]

The first of these to make it to market in .45acp is the one I'm going with.
(Please be HK...)

[GJM]

I bet the intro of the 320 and VP9 cause shooters to game them in Production and SSP in 2015. By the end of 2015, I bet we have a good idea of how shootable they are compared to existing designs. Leaving aside sponsored shooters, most guys just want to win. If the 320 and VP9 help do that, there will be more shooting them. If not, they will be pushed aside for something that shoots better.

[YVK]

Dr. No is already shooting a VP9 in Prod and is pushing a GM with it. Gamer's world score: Peepee9 1, SIG 320 0.

[GJM]

Dr. No is already shooting a VP9 in Prod and is pushing a GM with it. Gamer's world score: Peepee9 1, SIG 320 0.

Hopefully he will report on how his classifier scores do with the VP9 compared to his DA/SA P30L. Thought I read Max M is shooting a 320 in 15?

[UNK]

http://www.sigevolution.com/p320
I would venture to guess Sig will be first with a .45. On the above website they have full size -subcompact and 9mm-.357 Sig with .45 coming soon


The first of these to make it to market in .45acp is the one I'm going with.
(Please be HK...)

[YVK]

Thought I read Max M is shooting a 320 in 15?

I'll believe it when I see it, unless they make an Open gun out of it. With EG killing it in Production, Max is poised to win every Open match. Frankly, even if Eric comes back to Open, I think Max can hang with him. I dunno if he can do it in Production.
This is a massive thread derail, I apologize.

[Savage Hands]

I see plenty in California. You just have the dealer block the mags.

From my Motorola StarTAC.

Too late to SSE one now, unless you go somewhere like TRAP who wants to push delivery past the first of the year which is risky IMO. We stopped selling SSE guns on the 20th and have a few hundred guns to deliver between now and the 31st lol.

[HopetonBrown]

Max recently posted pics of twin 320's on his Facebook with work by Bruce Grey to play in Production.

From my Motorola StarTAC.

[Comedian]

I had a P320 FS and the compact and i liked the FS better. The FS shot to POA and was extremely accurate. The compact was accurate but didnt shoot to POA for some reason. Shots were tracking left. Overall i liked the VP9 better than the Sig's and kept it. Advantages of the VP9 over the P320 are: Better grip ergo's, lighter and smoother trigger pull (the 320 has a shorter reset)better balance than the FS 320. I like both the Sig P320 and the VP9 better than any other striker fired brands that i have tried over the years, (Glock, PPQ, M&P, Xd). Its very close but the VP9 wins for me.

[JHC]

I had a P320 FS and the compact and i liked the FS better. The FS shot to POA and was extremely accurate. The compact was accurate but didnt shoot to POA for some reason. Shots were tracking left. Overall i liked the VP9 better than the Sig's and kept it. Advantages of the VP9 over the P320 are: Better grip ergo's, lighter and smoother trigger pull (the 320 has a shorter reset)better balance than the FS 320. I like both the Sig P320 and the VP9 better than any other striker fired brands that i have tried over the years, (Glock, PPQ, M&P, Xd). Its very close but the VP9 wins for me.

I've been pretty much dedicated to Glocks for over 15 years and have zero complaints. But dang if this new 320 FS (about 500 rds so far) doesn't appear to be easier to hit with; fast or slow. To me and most who've tried it; it's trigger feels lighter than my minus connector Glocks. But on my RCBS scale is measures a pound heavier. That has me scratching my head. I wonder if I'm just botching the scale's hook placement on the trigger.

The reset of the 320 is pretty sick. Early measurements indicate I can blaze faster with it than my Glocks. FWIW.

When I have the time to shoot and score a complete 99 Drill, I'll have one of the most relevant data points for me. I don't doubt it's mechanical precision. In addition to the insane groups Bruce Gray has been sharing on FB, one of the better 50 yard groups I've shot with a striker gun was yesterday's 5 shots into a group about the size of my open hand centered in the high chest of an IPSC silo target. That's pretty strong for me with other than a custom 1911 or 6" revolver.

The medium grip module it came with has pleased the one small handed shooter who tried it so far. This is one of my chief reasons to the gun is for some of my family members to handle. A plus is that this heavy slide (seems to me) or combo of other factors makes for a softer shooting pistol IMO.

I'm also pretty hot for a $300 upper kit to convert it to a mechanically precise .357 Sig which is a caliber I've long been curious to try out.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

http://www.sigevolution.com/p320
I would venture to guess Sig will be first with a .45. On the above website they have full size -subcompact and 9mm-.357 Sig with .45 coming soon

OK by me.

I'm still bitter about Connecticut's new goat-screw regarding normal mags for 9mm's, so I comfort myself with normal capacity magazines holding larger bullets.

[BaiHu]

OK by me.

I'm still bitter about Connecticut's new goat-screw regarding normal mags for 9mm's, so I comfort myself with normal capacity magazines holding larger bullets.
Separate thread, but do you think it will get overturned ever?

[UNK]

I saw a shot show pic that had the 320F with a SIG holographic milled into the slide. Has anybody figured this out for HK?
I really like how Sig has jumped into this wholeheartedly with calibers and three sizes of pistol. At a LGS they told me they are still selling the VP9 as quick as they get them in. What the heck is wrong with HK? They need to offer a smaller size VP9 and calibers.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I saw a shot show pic that had the 320F with a SIG holographic milled into the slide. Has anybody figured this out for HK?
I really like how Sig has jumped into this wholeheartedly with calibers and three sizes of pistol. At a LGS they told me they are still selling the VP9 as quick as they get them in. What the heck is wrong with HK? They need to offer a smaller size VP9 and calibers.

No they don't. They need to keep it simple and do it right the first time as compared to offering various sizes, unicorn trim, rainblow titanium, tribal, etc. crap.

[JBP55]

It should be no problem for HK to offer a VP9C and a VP9L.

[UNK]

It should be no problem for HK to offer a VP9C and a VP9L.

Exactly. Or a sk.

[UNK]

If Sig were to offer the 239 in a modern polymer striker fired package I'd be all over it.

[psalms144.1]

No they don't. They need to keep it simple and do it right the first time as compared to offering various sizes, unicorn trim, rainblow titanium, tribal, etc. crap.As much as I DESPISE Sig's descent into the cosmetic "gun of the month club" marketing cesspool, I don't think people asking HK to come out with a couple of MINOR variations to pistol size would be asking them to NOT "do it right".

For how many years have we heard people say "I'd switch to the M&P IF ONLY they'd make one sized like a G19?" For a very large segment of the firearms community, the G19 is "perfection" when it comes to carry size/weight/capacity. The VP9 could be the same if HK just shortened the grip and switched to P2000 magazines (vice P30 magazines). Wouldn't require much, if any "tuning" to make that work - just shrink the length of the grip. There's nothing down there except polymer and one roll pin holding on the backstrap - how hard would the "redesign" be?

A VP9L would require a little more thought WRT spring weights, etc, but, I would think with the already mature P30L, it wouldn't take the big brains at HQ World Domination Central long to make that work at all.

A VP9sk would, I agree, require significant redesign, and should, in fact, be a deliberate undertaking.

Of course, none of this is likely to ever be seen, as even a die-hard HK fanatic like myself can admit, they're not the most customer-focused design company in the world. IF the VP9 takes hold in large numbers in the US LE community, and there's a MAJOR contract for a more compact version, then I think we'll see it. I'm thinking the MHS program, which specifically calls for full size and compact versions of the base pistol, might push HK to bring out a "C" or "sk" of the VP9 soon. But, I'm not holding my breath...

Regards,

Kevin

[Vinh]

It's not that HK isn't customer-focused, they simply cannot afford to be as agile as the main players. HK already has too many pistol models with a lot of redundancy.

[JBP55]

It's not that HK isn't customer-focused, they simply cannot afford to be as agile as the main players. HK already has too many pistol models with a lot of redundancy.

I agree, HK needs to drop the slow sellers from the line up and concentrate on the ones that will sell well and a complete line of VP pistols in 9mm/.40/.45 would be a great start.

[GJM]

Which models would they axe?

[taadski]

Max recently posted pics of twin 320's on his Facebook with work by Bruce Grey to play in Production.

From my Motorola StarTAC.

It was my understanding that Robert Burke (http://thesigarmorer.com) was the smith who was working on Michel's P320s. Regardless though, I'll be excited to see the pistol in the Production mix next year, as it appears there are several M/GM caliber competitors looking at giving it a shake.


If Sig were to offer the 239 in a modern polymer striker fired package I'd be all over it.

The P250 subcompact frame with the business parts from the P320 Compact would come really close in all dimensions but length. It'd, in effect, be pretty similar size-wise to a G19 with a chopped 26 length grip. While I certainly don't like the manner in which the 250 was brought to market, I (still) think the modularity is pretty ingenious. I look forward to spending some more quality time with the P320 sometime soon.

t

[Savage Hands]

Which models would they axe?

They could axe the USP line IMO.

[gtmtnbiker98]

They could axe the USP line IMO."Thems fighten' words in some parts."

[Savage Hands]

"Thems fighten' words in some parts."

:cool:

[psalms144.1]

If I were in charge of running a "lean" HK lineup, it would be:

P30L
P30sk
VP(X)L
VP(X)C
VP(X)sk
HK45
HK45C

And, of course, the P7M8.

All of the "standard" models would be available as is, or in "T" versions for superninjas

Just my opinion, of course. I think the above list would handily cover the spectrum of serious uses for HKs...

[gtmtnbiker98]

If I were in charge of running a "lean" HK lineup, it would be:

P30L
P30sk
VP(X)L
VP(X)C
VP(X)sk
HK45
HK45C

And, of course, the P7M8.

All of the "standard" models would be available as is, or in "T" versions for superninjas

Just my opinion, of course. I think the above list would handily cover the spectrum of serious uses for HKs...
Where does that leave CBP?

[psalms144.1]

Where does that leave CBP?Upgraded to P30Ls

[gtmtnbiker98]

Upgraded to P30Ls
Do the know this, lol?

[GJM]

How about the USP .45 I just bought to shoot .45 Super in -- surely the .45 Super market is thriving and growing?

[JodyH]

If I were in charge of running a "lean" HK lineup, it would be:
I bet the USP series outsells the P30 and the P7M8 is a money pit for H&K.

[UNK]

I bet that the VP9 will be their top individual profit gun easily beating out the P30. 2015 competition wise is going to be an interesting year.

[GJM]

I bet that the VP9 will be their top individual profit gun easily beating out the P30. 2015 competition wise is going to be an interesting year.

Define what you mean by "top profit?"

[UNK]

Define what you mean by "top profit?"

Total profit per model for the year.
ETA I should have said pistol.

[GJM]

Total profit per model for the year.

Easily the most units sold. I don't know their finances, and what their margin is on the P2000 contract to even guess on profit.

[UNK]

Easily the most units sold. I don't know their finances, and what their margin is on the P2000 contract to even guess on profit.
Me either. I'd be willing to make a bet though if I knew I could get an honest reliable answer. And that would include any models in the VP9 line.
My whole point is if it's that successful why not introduce other models. As I mentioned earlier the LGS said they are still selling them as fast as they get them in.

[WOLFIE]

If Sig were to offer the 239 in a modern polymer striker fired package I'd be all over it.

I concur

[CanineCombatives]

Having had the VP9 for some time before starting T&E on the P320 I can only say that the VP9 was sold to a friend and the P320's
became my primary work pistol platform after 23 years with glocks.
I'm not one for bold predictions but in the last year I've seen enough to make me believe the P320 will go on to become the #2 LE
pistol in the US right behind glock in a very short timeframe and eventually edge it out in the longer term.

[Savage Hands]

Having had the VP9 for some time before starting T&E on the P320 I can only say that the VP9 was sold to a friend and the P320's
became my primary work pistol platform after 23 years with glocks.
I'm not one for bold predictions but in the last year I've seen enough to make me believe the P320 will go on to become the #2 LE
pistol in the US right behind glock in a very short timeframe and eventually edge it out in the longer term.


Sorry but that's funny to me and I doubt the P320 will become a serious contender at Glock, in fact I believe the VP9 will have way more issued guns than the Sig. But I guess time will tell.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Having had the VP9 for some time before starting T&E on the P320 I can only say that the VP9 was sold to a friend and the P320's
became my primary work pistol platform after 23 years with glocks.
I'm not one for bold predictions but in the last year I've seen enough to make me believe the P320 will go on to become the #2 LE
pistol in the US right behind glock in a very short timeframe and eventually edge it out in the longer term.Are you being serious, here?

[UNK]

OK You are going to have to educate me because I don't honestly see what the VP9 has over the 320.
If I understand correctly the 320 is offered in two sizes now the full and compact with a sub compact to follow. In addition each size has three different size grips small medium and large. Right now it's offered in 9mm .40 .357 Sig and .45 to follow soon. The Sig Slide can easily be modified to accept a holographic sight and that will be offered from the factory at some point.. Sigs night sights are good to go out of the box.
The trigger housing group is transferrable between frames and calibers. The compact model has the same capacity as the full size HK.
HK has one pistol in one caliber. Substandard sights, and low capacity for the size.
What am I missing?

Are you being serious, here?

[gtmtnbiker98]

OK You are going to have to educate me because I don't honestly see what the VP9 has over the 320.
If I understand correctly the 320 is offered in two sizes now the full and compact with a sub compact to follow. In addition each size has three different size grips small medium and large. Right now it's offered in 9mm .40 .357 Sig and .45 to follow soon. The Sig Slide can easily be modified to accept a holographic sight and that will be offered from the factory at some point.. Sigs night sights are good to go out of the box.
The trigger housing group is transferrable between frames and calibers.
HK has one pistol in one caliber.
What am I missing?Not missing anything, other than the P320 miraculously becoming the main competitor with Glock in LE. Simply will not happen. It will take years for many to forget the P250 debacle.

The P320 has an uphill battle to gain market share.

[JHC]

Not missing anything, other than the P320 miraculously becoming the main competitor with Glock in LE. Simply will not happen. It will take years for many to forget the P250 debacle.

The P320 has an uphill battle to gain market share.

Gen 4 issues haven't slowed Glock down much.

[Savage Hands]

Not missing anything, other than the P320 miraculously becoming the main competitor with Glock in LE. Simply will not happen. It will take years for many to forget the P250 debacle.

The P320 has an uphill battle to gain market share.


We will not forget this quickly:
http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/4023393.htm
Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III. In this regard, Sig Sauer argues that reliability was only one of a number of elements to be considered in the live-fire assessment, and notes that reliability was not identified as having any more importance than the other elements.[11] We disagree.

[Savage Hands]

Gen 4 issues haven't slowed Glock down much.


You mean some 2010-2012 Glock 9mm's, not many will forget they made a small percentage of bad guns.

[psalms144.1]

You mean some 2010-2012 Glock 9mm's, not many will forget they made a small percentage of bad guns.Without wanting to pour gasoline on a fire, I had 100% non-repairable failure rate on 5x G19s in that time frame - the last three of which were "hand picked" replacements. My 2013-vintage Gen4 G19 is back at Smyrna right now for a number of issues, and won't eject properly without an Apex extractor.

So, yeah, the "small percentage of bad guns" thing is REALLY a matter of perspective.

PLEASE NOTE - I'm still TRYING to use a G19 as my primary pistol, if Glock will ever send mine back (or a replacement for it...)

Regards,

Kevin

[nwhpfan]

Not missing anything, other than the P320 miraculously becoming the main competitor with Glock in LE. Simply will not happen. It will take years for many to forget the P250 debacle.

The P320 has an uphill battle to gain market share.

What is the debacle? Besides it was a lame pistol. Personally, I doubt many people in the LE world even knew of the 250.

I think Sig and HK have the same problem. No (few) sales teams or product reps. When S&W worked to get back in the LE business with the M&P they sent guys all over the nation with a suitcase of pistols making cold calls at police stations. Maybe HK and Sig will do that too; but that's what it will take.

There is no LE rep for Sig or HK in my area. I can't find an HK LE contact on HK website. Sig does have one. FWIW, I have a VP9 and I like it very much. I think it has potential but there is more to sales than having the right product.

[JBP55]

I will be surprised if all P320 models available calendar year 2015 outsell all VP models available calendar year 2015.

[UNK]

I'm not a LEO and I've never been a Sig fan so I didn't follow the 250. I am interested in what they have right now. It seems to me that HK and Sig have brought a new standard to ergonomics and trigger. It also seems to me that the Glock grip and trigger is a bit outdated in comparison to the current Sig and HK. I say this because I have read about good shooters who have set personal records with both the Sig and HK. Glock has also had their recent problems. I was aware of that and steered a family member to a P2000SK instead of the Glock which incidentally she shot better than the LEM trigger.
I don't see it as miraculous but simply based on merit.

[Savage Hands]

Without wanting to pour gasoline on a fire, I had 100% non-repairable failure rate on 5x G19s in that time frame - the last three of which were "hand picked" replacements. My 2013-vintage Gen4 G19 is back at Smyrna right now for a number of issues, and won't eject properly without an Apex extractor.

So, yeah, the "small percentage of bad guns" thing is REALLY a matter of perspective.

PLEASE NOTE - I'm still TRYING to use a G19 as my primary pistol, if Glock will ever send mine back (or a replacement for it...)

Regards,

Kevin


That's truly terrible and would leave a bad taste in my mouth as well, I've had one horribly ejecting Gen 4 9mm which was the first Gen 4 G19 I bought in early 2012. I was fortunate enough to be a beta tester for Apex's extractor and it solved the majority of my erratic ejection and I have not received brass to my eye ever since. The two Gen 4 G17's, another G19 and G42 have not had any problems my first Gen 4 G19 had fortunately. I've also sold well over 100 Glocks from 2013 to now both commercial and Blue Label and have not had a customer complaint of erratic ejection minus the guy who's girlfriend was most likely limp wristing from what we gathered. I'm not denying it didn't exist, but I don't think the percentage of a problem Glock is very high IMG.

[JHC]

That's truly terrible and would leave a bad taste in my mouth as well, I've had one horribly ejecting Gen 4 9mm which was the first Gen 4 G19 I bought in early 2012. I was fortunate enough to be a beta tester for Apex's extractor and it solved the majority of my erratic ejection and I have not received brass to my eye ever since. The two Gen 4 G17's, another G19 and G42 have not had any problems my first Gen 4 G19 had fortunately. I've also sold well over 100 Glocks from 2013 to now both commercial and Blue Label and have not had a customer complaint of erratic ejection minus the guy who's girlfriend was most likely limp wristing from what we gathered. I'm not denying it didn't exist, but I don't think the percentage of a problem Glock is very high IMG.

Considering their volumes I suspect your right. Psalms and LL and nyeti got hosed.

I won't write off either. From Bruce Grays info Sig sounds pretty serious about this one. Time will tell. I got a 320 for small handed shooters. I didnt want my own socks knocked off but there they are, over there.

[UNK]

JHC Im really interested to hear more about your 320 experiences. Have you had the opportunity to shoot the VP9?


Considering their volumes I suspect your right. Psalms and LL and nyeti got hosed.

I won't right off either. From Bruce Grays info Sig sounds pretty serious about this one. Time will tell. I got a 320 for small handed shooters. I didnt want my own socks knocked off but there they are, over there.

[Savage Hands]

Considering their volumes I suspect your right. Psalms and LL and nyeti got hosed.

I won't right off either. From Bruce Grays info Sig sounds pretty serious about this one. Time will tell. I got a 320 for small handed shooters. I didnt want my own socks knocked off but there they are, over there.


Info from a month or so ago was that Sig was still deciding on offering the 45 if they sold enough P320's which the release of the VP9 seriously dented. I know we probably sold 20 to 1 VP9's to Sig P320's this year.

[Kyle Reese]

I'm picking up a full sized P320 in 9mm in the future for grins. If it sucks I'm blaming you guys. :)

[JodyH]

On the LEO side of things, Sig and H&K both will be sucking hind teat to Glock and S&W for years to come.
I'd expect the M&P to knock Glock off its pedestal long before the Sig 320 or H&K VP9.

[JHC]

Info from a month or so ago was that Sig was still deciding on offering the 45 if they sold enough P320's which the release of the VP9 seriously dented. I know we probably sold 20 to 1 VP9's to Sig P320's this year.

For whatever reason VP9s were in my stores long before I saw a 320.

[UNK]

http://www.sigevolution.com/ At the chart at the bottom where it lists calibers it says .45 ACP coming soon

QUOTE=Shenaniguns;282403]Info from a month or so ago was that Sig was still deciding on offering the 45 if they sold enough P320's which the release of the VP9 seriously dented. I know we probably sold 20 to 1 VP9's to Sig P320's this year.[/QUOTE]

[Savage Hands]

For whatever reason VP9s were in my stores long before I saw a 320.

Due to California's silly laws and not being able to buy either of those handguns new (or Gen 4 Glocks for that matter ) unless you are a full time peace officer in 2015, we put some orders as big 50 VP9's at once and sold almost all of them by the end of the year. Only a few P320's were ordered at a time. I hope both guns succeed and give Glock a kick in the rump to wake them up.

[Clay]

On the LEO side of things, Sig and H&K both will be sucking hind teat to Glock and S&W for years to come.
I'd expect the M&P to knock Glock off its pedestal long before the Sig 320 or H&K VP9.
Agree. If S&W would've gotten their shit together, this would have already occured, IMO. I think most folks, LE especially, would rather buy American, if given the chance - reliability and other such characteristics being equal.

[JHC]

I've only dry fired three VP9s. I'm not a fine tuned trigger connoisseur. I think it and the 320 are very similiar
trigger wise. So far my 50 yard slow fire and bill drill scored better with the 320 than my trusty G17s. El Prez and DERP about the same.

99 Drill will tell me more.

I think it shoots softer than my G17. My wife managed the med grip and controls easier.

My thumbs need to find a new home shooting two handed. ;)

It points much flatter than my G17 and I am not sure what I think about that. I like how Glocks index but that's been my primary for more than 15 yrs

[Savage Hands]

http://www.sigevolution.com/ At the chart at the bottom where it lists calibers it says .45 ACP coming soon

QUOTE=Shenaniguns;282403]Info from a month or so ago was that Sig was still deciding on offering the 45 if they sold enough P320's which the release of the VP9 seriously dented. I know we probably sold 20 to 1 VP9's to Sig P320's this year.[/QUOTE]

Yes I see that, I'm going off of info provided by some reps, but I did disclose that the info was from a month or so ago. Hell maybe longer, since everything is a blur with a newborn.

[Savage Hands]

I've only dry fired three VP9s. I'm not a fine tuned trigger connoisseur. I think it and the 320 are very similiar
trigger wise. So far my 50 yard slow fire and bill drill scored better with the 320 than my trusty G17s. El Prez and DERP about the same.

99 Drill will tell me more.

I think it shoots softer than my G17. My wife managed the med grip and controls easier.

My thumbs need to find a new home shooting two handed. ;)

It points much flatter than my G17 and I am not sure what I think about that. I like how Glocks index but that's been my primary for more than 15 yrs

I guess I'll shoot one live fire and give it a chance, just handling them in the shop leaves me underwhelmed. Even the VP9 didn't wow me enough to buy one, but I did just pick up a P30L V1 :cool:

[UNK]

I posted this earlier it is an interesting read. " After taking a break from accuracy drills, Dot Torture was attempted again, this time getting a clean score of 50/50. On the 99 Drill, I shot a 92/99, which is a PR on that drill for me. The VP9 turned in excellent groups with all types of ammo used." Its from Caleb at Gun Nuts Media. Heres the link. http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/06/13/heckler-koch-vp9-review/


I guess I'll shoot one live fire and give it a chance, just handling them in the shop leaves me underwhelmed. Even the VP9 didn't wow me enough to buy one, but I did just pick up a P30L V1 :cool:

[UNK]

Only a few hundred rounds into the 320 and in two areas you have bested a pistol you have 15 years experience with. Sounds like a pretty damn good pistol to me
I've only dry fired three VP9s. I'm not a fine tuned trigger connoisseur. I think it and the 320 are very similiar
trigger wise. So far my 50 yard slow fire and bill drill scored better with the 320 than my trusty G17s. El Prez and DERP about the same.

99 Drill will tell me more.

I think it shoots softer than my G17. My wife managed the med grip and controls easier.

My thumbs need to find a new home shooting two handed. ;)

It points much flatter than my G17 and I am not sure what I think about that. I like how Glocks index but that's been my primary for more than 15 yrs

[Savage Hands]

I know the VP9 is capable from many who shoot it and the P320's capable from Bruce's work. But handling them in the shop just doesn't make me want one and I can't buy one new at cost anymore regardless in this state. I'm fine with a handful of Gen 4 Glocks and a sole P30L for the next few years until the California roster is gone.

[GJM]

I bet that the VP9 will be their top individual profit gun easily beating out the P30. 2015 competition wise is going to be an interesting year.

Interesting chatter on HK Pro about $600'ish new P2000 and SK pistols now.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/210956-p2000sk-price-drop.html

Something is happening at HK -- it is just I don't know what it is. :rolleyes:

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Hopefully it is not an indication of subcontracting out parts to cut costs, and therefore quality...

[UNK]

Fighting for survival? Or perhaps the VP9 trigger or some variant thereof is the wave of the future.


Interesting chatter on HK Pro about $600'ish new P2000 and SK pistols now.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/210956-p2000sk-price-drop.html

Something is happening at HK -- it is just I don't know what it is. :rolleyes:

[LSP972]

Psalms and LL and nyeti got hosed.



As did I.

I've heard lots of folks trying to soft-soap the issues (as recently as in this thread), but the fact remains that Glock had a very serious set of problems with several very popular pistols- in enough quantity to alarm a lot of qualified people… and never publicly acknowledged ANYTHING regarding that. Those of us who clearly remember this, and therefore have most likely purchased their last Glock product, certainly pose no danger to Glock's bottom line. I, for one, have seven (four G19s, two G17s, one G26) Glock pistols from prior to the 'troubled time' that are utterly dependable and will remain in my stable. But I would have to think long and hard (and do some personal testing) before dropping any money on a new-production Glock example… or recommending that anyone else do so.

As for the Sig 320; I handled one, and managed to suppress a yawn. This underwhelming first impression may change once I shoot one… but since I'm making absolutely zero effort to arrange that, I believe my P30 pistols will handle my 9mm chores for the forseeable future. And while I had a recent-production P229 Scorpion that was vey nice, and reliable for the few hundred rounds I put through it, I find it a bit difficult to take seriously the firm that produces the various bling that it does. And the P250 was supposed to have been thoroughly vetted and de-bugged for the LE market; we saw how that turned out.

FWIW, I was a dyed-in-the-wool Sig fan while many folks here were still trying to get their girlfriend's bra unhooked in junior high school. My point being, Sig was once a great company with solid values and, until the introduction of the HK USP, the hands-down best 9mm service pistol extant.

These days, it appears to me that Sig/USA is all about profit margins and bottom lines. So, pardon my lack of confidence in the new Sig combat tupperware.

And I'm not genuflecting at the HK altar, either. I had a VP9, and traded it for another 9mm P30. As far as I'm concerned, the VP9 is just a Glock with lipstick, make-up, and bigger boobs.

And more parts than a P30. YMMV….

.

[UNK]

As did I.

I've heard lots of folks trying to soft-soap the issues (as recently as in this thread), but the fact remains that Glock had a very serious set of problems with several very popular pistols- in enough quantity to alarm a lot of qualified people… and never publicly acknowledged ANYTHING regarding that. Those of us who clearly remember this, and therefore have most likely purchased their last Glock product, certainly pose no danger to Glock's bottom line. I, for one, have seven (four G19s, two G17s, one G26) Glock pistols from prior to the 'troubled time' that are utterly dependable and will remain in my stable. But I would have to think long and hard (and do some personal testing) before dropping any money on a new-production Glock example… or recommending that anyone else do so.

As for the Sig 320; I handled one, and managed to suppress a yawn. This underwhelming first impression may change once I shoot one… but since I'm making absolutely zero effort to arrange that, I believe my P30 pistols will handle my 9mm chores for the forseeable future. And while I had a recent-production P229 Scorpion that was vey nice, and reliable for the few hundred rounds I put through it, I find it a bit difficult to take seriously the firm that produces the various bling that it does. And the P250 was supposed to have been thoroughly vetted and de-bugged for the LE market; we saw how that turned out.

FWIW, I was a dyed-in-the-wool Sig fan while many folks here were still trying to get their girlfriend's bra unhooked in junior high school. My point being, Sig was once a great company with solid values and, until the introduction of the HK USP, the hands-down best 9mm service pistol extant.

These days, it appears to me that Sig/USA is all about profit margins and bottom lines. So, pardon my lack of confidence in the new Sig combat tupperware.

And I'm not genuflecting at the HK altar, either. I had a VP9, and traded it for another 9mm P30. As far as I'm concerned, the VP9 is just a Glock with lipstick, make-up, and bigger boobs.

And more parts than a P30. YMMV….

.

[CanineCombatives]

Sorry but that's funny to me and I doubt the P320 will become a serious contender at Glock, in fact I believe the VP9 will have way more issued guns than the Sig. But I guess time will tell.

Your looking at it from a commercial standpoint, LE is a different animal, whoever said that LE isn't even aware of the P250 debacle is correct, the VP9 will never gain any real traction in LE due to a few factors, one is the retraining involved with the paddle mag release, the other is the massive logistic backing and support structure required to make a serious run at the LE market which isn't there, third is the complexity and parts count of the pistol and armorer training needed as compared to the much simpler design of the P320.
But what makes the P320 a game changer is how it increases operator proficiency at all skill levels over the legacy system, which is glock about 85% of the time, it's become boringly repeatable with every agency that has evaluated and ultimately adopted or approved the P320 system. Along with a superior LE pistol, SIG has the logistical machine to back it up with anything agencies need from parts support to armorer training to transition training to trade in programs.
This is not inside information, the pistol has only been out a year and the list and scope of agencies already on board is pretty amazing.

[JBP55]

CC, Would you show us the amazing list of LEA's that have adopted the P320?

[gtmtnbiker98]

Your looking at it from a commercial standpoint, LE is a different animal, whoever said that LE isn't even aware of the P250 debacle is correct, the VP9 will never gain any real traction in LE due to a few factors, one is the retraining involved with the paddle mag release, the other is the massive logistic backing and support structure required to make a serious run at the LE market which isn't there, third is the complexity and parts count of the pistol and armorer training needed as compared to the much simpler design of the P320.
But what makes the P320 a game changer is how it increases operator proficiency at all skill levels over the legacy system, which is glock about 85% of the time, it's become boringly repeatable with every agency that has evaluated and ultimately adopted or approved the P320 system. Along with a superior LE pistol, SIG has the logistical machine to back it up with anything agencies need from parts support to armorer training to transition training to trade in programs.
This is not inside information, the pistol has only been out a year and the list and scope of agencies already on board is pretty amazing.
Are you in LE? Curious. You've made these same declarations on another forum. Just trying to gain a baseline.

My agency switched to the P30 V1 9mm from the P229 DAK .40 back in 2013. Do you know how long it took me to transition our officers to the paddle release? One 6-hr range day. Know how many complaints I received? Zero. Most cops don't shoot enough to gain much of what we consider muscle memory.

As for HK in LE in terms of market share? They have a presence, just not as large as Glock oe S&W.

[UNK]

I don't follow the thought that if a company produces a product that has issues I will never buy from that company again. I agree they are in the business of manufacturing firearms, and these are products that have utmost significance as a tool of last resort. However if we follow that logic who could we buy firearms from? Just recently we have had reliability/accuracy/manufacturing issues from S&W Glock and SIG. And that's just recent history. I would think that someone who is more knowledgeable than I into the history of firearms manufacturing could point out models that had problems with virtually any manufacture.
My current thought is that it should be on the market long enough to have proved itself, I should have enough rounds through my particular model to trust it before I carry it, and I shouldn't have to put any aftermarket parts on it, or have to send it to a gunsmith, to make it how it should have been before it left the factory

One of the chief complaints I have heard about the VP9 is that it is too complicated. And that for it's size it should hold more bullets.

But on the flip side when a grand master shooter takes one out and sets a personal record on a drill..it gets my attention. I've had people disagree with this statement before but my thought is the closer it is to a 1911 trigger the closer it is to perfection.

[LSP972]

I don't follow the thought that if a company produces a product that has issues I will never buy from that company again.

How about multiple issues? How about purple slides? Blue slides? "Diamond Plate"?

If you are referring to my comments re Glock, do you follow that the fact that this firm has never, to my knowledge, ever admitted that there was a fault/problem/issue with any of their pistols? Sure they work feverishly behind the scenes to isolate and fix it… all the while blaming poor training/bad ammo/incompetent users. If you follow that, does it not make you just a bit hesitant or uneasy?

Hey, I'm not trying to "convert" anyone, nor change anyone's opinions. But I find it difficult to swallow that some folks on this forum down-play what was a serious design/QC/whatever issue with a previously sterling product. You expect that sort of thing on GlockTalk, etc. Here, I have come to expect total objectivity and truth.

.

[GardoneVT]

Your looking at it from a commercial standpoint, LE is a different animal, whoever said that LE isn't even aware of the P250 debacle is correct, the VP9 will never gain any real traction in LE due to a few factors, one is the retraining involved with the paddle mag release, the other is the massive logistic backing and support structure required to make a serious run at the LE market which isn't there, third is the complexity and parts count of the pistol and armorer training needed as compared to the much simpler design of the P320.
But what makes the P320 a game changer is how it increases operator proficiency at all skill levels over the legacy system, which is glock about 85% of the time, it's become boringly repeatable with every agency that has evaluated and ultimately adopted or approved the P320 system. Along with a superior LE pistol, SIG has the logistical machine to back it up with anything agencies need from parts support to armorer training to transition training to trade in programs.
This is not inside information, the pistol has only been out a year and the list and scope of agencies already on board is pretty amazing.

The Steyr M series was touted to trump the Glock. Where are they now?

The Caracal 9 series was intended to beat Glock by this time. Where are they now?

The Sig 320 is a decent gun, but the only game it's changing is Cabela's display planogram.

[gtmtnbiker98]

The Sig 320 is a decent gun, but the only game it's changing is Cabela's display planogram.
Now that was funny. When somebody mentions the phrase "game changer" in a serious context, I typically stop reading or listening. I'm also curious to learn how the 320 increases operator proficiency? It's not like we haven't had striker fired actions since the 70's.

[ReverendMeat]

How about multiple issues? How about purple slides? Blue slides? "Diamond Plate"?

Been seeing this sentiment a lot in this thread. I think a lot of their variations are beyond silly but I fail to see how that affects the quality of their other products. If you don't like the zombie green tribal glitter tramp stamp gun don't buy it, so what difference does it make?

I did ask our SIG rep about all the ostentatious crap in their lineup and he pretty much said "yeah, it's stupid, but there's enough people out there who are into that kind of stuff that it lets us put more money into R&D." Ain't nothin' wrong with that IMO as long as their QC is back up to snuff.

Edit: I just checked SIGs website and now it seems they only list diamond plate as an option for their poly frame guns. No longer an option for any of their metal framed guns, and neither is the tribal pattern. Good to see

[CanineCombatives]

The only folks that can supply a complete agency list is SIG LE, their contact info is public.

Mtb'er, call it what you will, but when instructor level guys are retiring their trusty glocks after 20+ years of flawless
service in favor of a brand new design thats only a year old it's pretty significant, it's what put me onto the P320 to begin with.

About the 6 hour retraining you did and everyone was up to speed on the paddles, all I can say is if you think 6 hours on the
square range will prevent the officer from reverting back to already learned behavior in an OIS you should consult some guys who's word
you would accept when they tell you otherwise, been there done it guys, they are scattered all over the country, IALEFI is a good resource.

[John Hearne]

Disclaimer: I have not live fired the P320 or the VP9 but I have fondled both.

My take is that Sig has the opportunity to recapture the LE market in a significant way.

The first set of reasons are tied to Glock and S&W dropping the ball with their 9mm offerings. Glock has had noted reliability problems with their 9's. These seem to be remedied now but the issues are recent enough to still be in the collective memory. The Glock also suffers from its overall grip size. Since it's running plastic magazines, the grip can only be so small so it really isn't friendly for the really small handed folks. S&W is obviously still having accuracy problems with their 9mm offerings.

To me, the P320 has some major positives. It is ambi friendly. It appears to be very accurate. The trigger doesn't have to be pulled to disassemble. The trigger seems to have been designed for shooters. The "small" modular grip makes for a very friendly weapon for those with small hands. Sig does have a history of QC issues BUT, their 9mm's seem to have run the best, even when SIg was at its worst. I suspect that most agency sales will be in 9mmm, the caliber least likely to cause problems. Some folks are worried about the 250 but, the 250 never gained any momentum and has largely been forgotten except for the gun nerds.

So why not the H&K? I suspect that it will come down to price. I suspect that Sig will be able to sell P320's at a price point that beats H&K every time. Price and holster availability will really keep the VP-9 out of the hands of most American LE. (Realistically, what percent of the LE market does H&K have now? I don't know the number, but H&K could double their share and not be a big player in the LE gun market)

Edited to add: And, the modularity of the 320 is the kind of feature that will appeal to the bean counters who will get involved in the selection of a new duty pistol.

[Clay]

A quick Google search yielded several hometown news articles as well as SIG's LE Facebook page mentioning different LE agencies across the country adopting the P320 - which to me is good news in that the more of them out there, the more we'll find out down the road.

I put 400 rounds through a friend's VP9 a few weeks ago, and didn't feel the need to buy one. I do have a Gen4 Glock 19 that works, though - and that gun with the new beavertail backstrap is as close to "Perfection" that Glock has ever came, IMHO.

[Savage Hands]

As did I.

I've heard lots of folks trying to soft-soap the issues (as recently as in this thread), but the fact remains that Glock had a very serious set of problems with several very popular pistols- in enough quantity to alarm a lot of qualified people… and never publicly acknowledged ANYTHING regarding that. Those of us who clearly remember this, and therefore have most likely purchased their last Glock product, certainly pose no danger to Glock's bottom line.

.


Not sure what you're trying to imply about soft-soap the issues. I've owned 15 Glocks so far and only one mentioned had anything serious which is the erratic ejection so I'm not denying there was a problem. My H&K USP I bought new in 1998 was the worst handgun I've owned that had stove pipes and double feeds like crazy. My M&P had failures to fire with the original black colored striker. My XDs had a recall that made me lose confidence in carrying it. My Father's large department had a ton of issues switching to Sig 226 and 229's in the mid 2000's and so on. So I guess I shouldn't really trust any major brand.

[LSP972]

Been seeing this sentiment a lot in this thread. I think a lot of their variations are beyond silly but I fail to see how that affects the quality of their other products. If you don't like the zombie green tribal glitter tramp stamp gun don't buy it, so what difference does it make?

e

You answered that question with the statement that ended with "... if their QC is up to snuff."

Given that I'm still seeing complaints about Sig QC... well, to my mind it's like Kimber. Maybe if that firm diverted some of those huge advertising dollars they spend into QC efforts, perhaps we wouldn't see so many complaints about their guns.

Agreed, Philistines have the right to buy their bling. But to my mind, be it right or wrong, the effort and resources diverted to producing that bling would be better spent assuring flawless execution on the real (i.e., bread and butter) guns.

Just my opinion, of course.

.

[GardoneVT]

Disclaimer: I have not live fired the P320 or the VP9 but I have fondled both.

My take is that Sig has the opportunity to recapture the LE market in a significant way.

The first set of reasons are tied to Glock and S&W dropping the ball with their 9mm offerings. Glock has had noted reliability problems with their 9's. These seem to be remedied now but the issues are recent enough to still be in the collective memory. The Glock also suffers from its overall grip size. Since it's running plastic magazines, the grip can only be so small so it really isn't friendly for the really small handed folks. S&W is obviously still having accuracy problems with their 9mm offerings.

To me, the P320 has some major positives. It is ambi friendly. It appears to be very accurate. The trigger doesn't have to be pulled to disassemble. The trigger seems to have been designed for shooters. The "small" modular grip makes for a very friendly weapon for those with small hands. Sig does have a history of QC issues BUT, their 9mm's seem to have run the best, even when SIg was at its worst. I suspect that most agency sales will be in 9mmm, the caliber least likely to cause problems. Some folks are worried about the 250 but, the 250 never gained any momentum and has largely been forgotten except for the gun nerds.

So why not the H&K? I suspect that it will come down to price. I suspect that Sig will be able to sell P320's at a price point that beats H&K every time. Price and holster availability will really keep the VP-9 out of the hands of most American LE. (Realistically, what percent of the LE market does H&K have now? I don't know the number, but H&K could double their share and not be a big player in the LE gun market)

Not to trivialize the negative experiences some have had with Glock, but we must remember the vastly different production levels between HK ,Sig, and Glocks.

Let us assume 5% of each brands final goods are lemons. Because Glock ships more pistols then HK , we will see more prolific broken Glocks then we will HKs despite both brands having a numerically equal QC metric.

Edit-companies also have to make a buck, and that's tough when the typical customer mag dumps a pistol once every six months into a five-yard target. At an NRA basic class, the one HK owner asked how long she could keep a pistol without needing to maintain it. It's hard to sell the need for premium QC to management as a capital investment when 90% of your customers won't notice or care about the difference.

[LSP972]

Not sure what you're trying to imply about soft-soap the issues...

I'm not trying to imply anything. I'm stating that it looks to me like some folks are down-playing what was a known, serious problem.

I didn't mention any names, but since you commented I'll direct you to the last two sentences in post #75 of this thread. To me, you are saying "I only know of one instance, so it wasn't that big of a deal."

Right, wrong, or indifferent, that's the way your words came across to me. In fact, it was a very big deal.

.

[UNK]

How you cannot see that this incremental change in ergonomics and trigger quality is a monumental advancement is beyond me. Did you see the article I posted where Caleb, a GRAND MASTER shooter set a personal record with a VP9 his first time out with the pistol? Contrary to popular opinion it shouldn't take months of sacrifice and thousands of bullets down range to become an above average shooter. The 1911 is a perfect example of that. It rewards you and brings out your best quickly. The glock could never cover the entire spectrum...from combat to bullseye that the 1911 did.


Now that was funny. When somebody mentions the phrase "game changer" in a serious context, I typically stop reading or listening. I'm also curious to learn how the 320 increases operator proficiency? It's not like we haven't had striker fired actions since the 70's.

[Savage Hands]

How about multiple issues? How about purple slides? Blue slides? "Diamond Plate"?

If you are referring to my comments re Glock, do you follow that the fact that this firm has never, to my knowledge, ever admitted that there was a fault/problem/issue with any of their pistols? Sure they work feverishly behind the scenes to isolate and fix it… all the while blaming poor training/bad ammo/incompetent users. If you follow that, does it not make you just a bit hesitant or uneasy?

Hey, I'm not trying to "convert" anyone, nor change anyone's opinions. But I find it difficult to swallow that some folks on this forum down-play what was a serious design/QC/whatever issue with a previously sterling product. You expect that sort of thing on GlockTalk, etc. Here, I have come to expect total objectivity and truth.

.



You seem to be offended pretty easily over other people's experience , maybe you had too much Internet for today.

[Savage Hands]

I'm not trying to imply anything. I'm stating that it looks to me like some folks are down-playing what was a known, serious problem.

I didn't mention any names, but since you commented I'll direct you to the last two sentences in post #75 of this thread. To me, you are saying "I only know of one instance, so it wasn't that big of a deal."

Right, wrong, or indifferent, that's the way your words came across to me. In fact, it was a very big deal.

.


Funny how you didn't post the whole quote. A new 95 pound female shooter having failures to feed on a Glock 19 but doesn't happen with her more proficient boyfriend who owns it? Stop the presses...

I'd rather you tell me that you have a problem with my post instead of the passive aggressive bs.

[HCM]

Are you in LE? Curious. You've made these same declarations on another forum. Just trying to gain a baseline.

My agency switched to the P30 V1 9mm from the P229 DAK .40 back in 2013. Do you know how long it took me to transition our officers to the paddle release? One 6-hr range day. Know how many complaints I received? Zero. Most cops don't shoot enough to gain much of what we consider muscle memory.

As for HK in LE in terms of market share? They have a presence, just not as large as Glock oe S&W.

In the late 1990's my agency transitioned from the Beretta 96D Brigadier with a button mag release to the HK USPC LEM with a paddle release. We subsequently transitioned back to button releases on the P229R DAK. We have a 4 hour transition class and have had zero issues with mag release manipulation with any of these platforms.

[gtmtnbiker98]

How you cannot see that this incremental change in ergonomics and trigger quality is a monumental advancement is beyond me. Did you see the article I posted where Caleb, a GRAND MASTER shooter set a personal record with a VP9 his first time out with the pistol? Contrary to popular opinion it shouldn't take months of sacrifice and thousands of bullets down range to become an above average shooter. The 1911 is a perfect example of that. It rewards you and brings out your best quickly. The glock could never cover the entire spectrum...from combat to bullseye that the 1911 did.
Who is this Caleb the GM and why should I be concerned with him? Yes, it takes time to become above average, but my definition of above average may differ from yours.

[LSP972]

Funny how you didn't post the whole quote. A new 95 pound female shooter having failures to feed on a Glock 19 but doesn't happen with her more proficient boyfriend who owns it? Stop the presses...

I'd rather you tell me that you have a problem with my post instead of the passive aggressive bs.

Passive agressive BS? Right. Good attempt at deflection, but fail. I didn't post ANY of the quote.

Your entire tone in that post suggests (again, MY perception) that you think the BTF issue -one that you specifically mentioned- was/is overblown. Statements like 'I'm not denying it exists, but…'

Whatever. What you don't understand is that I don't care what your personal feelings on the topic are, one way or another. You think it was much ado about nothing, fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

I am not offended, easily or otherwise, by other people's experiences. I AM somewhat perturbed with folks who dismiss things outside their range of experience as not important. And that is what I think you and some others have done in this particular case. It doesn't offend me; it surprises me to see it here.

If I'm wrong about you, well… my bad, as they say. But you asked…

.

[YVK]

Contrary to popular opinion it shouldn't take months of sacrifice and thousands of bullets down range to become an above average shooter.

Daum, I was having a feel good about myself day unil I read this. I consider myself just above average, based on parameters available to me and what I've seen people do with pistols on both ends of a spectrum, and I am tens of thousands rounds and hundreds, maybe thousands of hours in this. Now my night sleep is ruined.

Another thing that 1911 rewards you with is 45 oz of a disk-herniating weight and realization that a lowest capacity service pistol is also a hardest one to reload fast.


Otherwise it is fun to watch all of you getting into a pissing match about stuff that doesn't matter. I am going to pour myself some fine whiskey now, I suggest you all do the same.

[LSP972]

You're right.

To hell with the drink, I'm going to bed.

.

[Savage Hands]

Passive agressive BS? Right. Good attempt at deflection, but fail. I didn't post ANY of the quote.

Your entire tone in that post suggests (again, MY perception) that you think the BTF issue -one that you specifically mentioned- was/is overblown. Statements like 'I'm not denying it exists, but…'

Whatever. What you don't understand is that I don't care what your personal feelings on the topic are, one way or another. You think it was much ado about nothing, fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

I am not offended, easily or otherwise, by other people's experiences. I AM somewhat perturbed with folks who dismiss things outside their range of experience as not important. And that is what I think you and some others have done in this particular case. It doesn't offend me; it surprises me to see it here.

If I'm wrong about you, well… my bad, as they say. But you asked…

.


It's a real problem for a small percentage of Glocks, and when I was beta testing with Apex and learned from their testing, personal experience and experience of their own customers it didn't seem like a large percentage from the limited information I gathered considering a company like Glock pumping out up to a million guns a year. But even at 1/2 percent of one million guns is 5,000. I'm not down playing anything, my gun had the problem and was corrected. I'm just comfortable enough with those odds. YMMV

[HopetonBrown]

Caleb is a Master in IDPA. And A class in USPSA, for the record.

From my Motorola StarTAC.

[Jay Cunningham]

Does the membership desire that this thread be moved to Romper Room?

[JBP55]

If the HK/Sig comparison continues to drift lock it and maybe the new thread will stay on track.

[GardoneVT]

https://forum-s3.pinside.com/201311/1239538/152702.jpg

[GJM]

Now that was funny. When somebody mentions the phrase "game changer" in a serious context, I typically stop reading or listening. I'm also curious to learn how the 320 increases operator proficiency? It's not like we haven't had striker fired actions since the 70's.

Don't know about operator proficiency, but I bet one of those proverbial PF dollars, that when the next history of Sig and HK is written, the VP9 and 320 will be products that turn out to have had major impact on the overall success of the two respective organizations. Considering the market share and future prospects for the other HK and Sig handgun products, I think the VP9 and 320 are that important to both organizations.

I hope folks that have both pistols do some quantitative testing on various drills and post that data in this thread.

[JBP55]

Don't know about operator proficiency, but I bet one of those proverbial PF dollars, that when the next history of Sig and HK is written, the VP9 and 320 will be products that turn out to have had major impact on the overall success of the two respective organizations. Considering the market share and future prospects for the other HK and Sig handgun products, I think the VP9 and 320 are that important to both organizations.

I hope folks that have both pistols do some quantitative testing on various drills and post that data in this thread.

What GJM said.

[LSP972]

I'm just comfortable enough with those odds. YMMV

Fair enough.

.

[UNK]

Yes exactly. Well put.
I see no point in closing this thread

Don't know about operator proficiency, but I bet one of those proverbial PF dollars, that when the next history of Sig and HK is written, the VP9 and 320 will be products that turn out to have had major impact on the overall success of the two respective organizations. Considering the market share and future prospects for the other HK and Sig handgun products, I think the VP9 and 320 are that important to both organizations.

I hope folks that have both pistols do some quantitative testing on various drills and post that data in this thread.

[psalms144.1]

Don't know about operator proficiency, but I bet one of those proverbial PF dollars, that when the next history of Sig and HK is written, the VP9 and 320 will be products that turn out to have had major impact on the overall success of the two respective organizations. Considering the market share and future prospects for the other HK and Sig handgun products, I think the VP9 and 320 are that important to both organizations.

I hope folks that have both pistols do some quantitative testing on various drills and post that data in this thread.GJM - I completely agree. I think the real determining factors for both companies on success will be:

1. Sig: Reliability - they cannot have another P250 fiasco with this pistol, or it will likewise die on the vine. Modularity - the thing that the P320 does significantly better than any competitor is offer flexibility - one frame, large number of sizes, calibers, etc to mix and match with. Sig had a lot of trouble bringing conversion kits and other accessories to market in a timely fashion with the P250 - they cannot afford that same problem again.

2. HK: Options. HK has a long history of giving us what they think we need, or ONLY responding to the possibility of large agency/military contracts. If they want to get the VP9 off the ground, they need to, with a sense of urgency, offer other size options and calibers. As I stated earlier, it would seem to be a VERY simple thing to offer the VP9 in a compact (13-shot, G19-equivalent size), and as a VP40. If they brought those two options to the table, followed closely by a VPXsk and VP45 in various sizes, they'll get a lot of business.

Of course, this is one man's opinion, and worth precisely what you paid for it. And I'd also LOVE to hear some unbiased side-by-side shooting evaluations for the VP9 and P320...

[Casual Friday]

I'm excited to see both companies putting out striker fired guns. I think Sig was smart in offering the pistol in two sizes, and I hope that HK brings a P2000/Glock 19 size VP9 to market. That size pistol seems to be what a lot of folks want in a concealed carry gun. For years people have been saying they wish S&W would make a Glock 19 sized M&P, if HK does I think it will sell like hotcakes.

[LOKNLOD]

Sig makes a big deal about the modularity of the 320 system. But it looks to me that while you can swap frame and slides around the same trigger group assembly, you still need a separate slide/barrel and frame for each size. Just how modular is that? Basically I have to buy a whole new pistol (slide and grip frame) to change sizes. Am I correctly understanding that? I don't see how that's really any more modular than a Glock at that point, except perhaps for the serialized nature of the trigger pack (if I lived somewhere I was legally limited on number of weapons I can have registered to me).

If you can buy just the carry grip to put on your full size slide, or the subcompact grip on your carry slide, that would be a more useful degree of modularity to me. Otherwise I don't see much reason for the average person to not just buy 1 of each pistol. Surely the price doesn't work out to be that much cheaper.

[John Hearne]

Several additional thoughts.

Getting picked up as an LE duty weapon isn't about having the singularly "best" product. It is more about having a competitive price point, that address admin fears (no trigger pull to disassemble), and offers broad ranging solutions (full-size guns for uniformed guys, compact guns for plain clothes guys, and a sub-compact for backup)

Sig has spent the last 10 years learning how to make pistols as cheaply as possible while maintaining acceptable quality. This was a nasty learning curve, especially for the public that was used as the beta testers, but I think they are almost there. I suspect that Sig has figured out how to appropriately integrate MIM parts into their designs, something that H&K has known for years.

Sig seems to be listening to the marketplace as well. While we can argue whether the P320 has the best striker fired trigger, I think that we can certainly agree that it is totally acceptable for good work. Their guns are ambidextrous and they are arguably the best size for small hands. The only negative I see is that Sig's grip swap paradigm is more expensive than what the other makers have implemented.

Look at the Sig submission for the modular handgun project. It has a manual safety and the slide catch lever is "bent" forward to alleviate the lock back issues. Let's be honest, is there any PF shooter who wouldn't want this pistol with manual safety for appendix carry, especially in a long slide, compact grip configuration?

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/IMG_8283.jpg

[joshs]

I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of a full size slide on the 320 Carry frame, so I think that is possible.

One aspect of the 320 that appeals to my inner OCD gun dork is the fact that the gun seems to be effectively pin-less. Like a Glock, all the parts of the slide are retained by the rear plate, but, in addition, the takedown lever is the only thing that has to be removed to get the chassis out of the "frame." Having had pins walk on a number of different guns, especially in polymer frames, this seems like an improvement in polymer frame pistol design.

The 320 design also makes it much less stressful to perform grip work on the "frame." Stippling and reshaping an easily replaced piece of plastic sure beats worrying about effectively destroying the frame on competing pistols.

[UNK]

I personally don't want any manual safeties on a carry pistol regardless of where I carry it. What I do want is a pistol that is 50 yard capable for relatively precise shots. A compact double stack Glock 19 size and a single stack of the same size or maybe a subcompact and the same trigger. I prefer a single stack for AIWB Tucked and a jframe front pocket or a double stack compact sized carried strong side in a vertical high ride under a jacket also accompanied by a j frame in front pocket carry.
I'm not LE so their restrictions don't apply to me.

It was mentioned earlier that the SIG Trigger is much simpler than the HK. Can anybody comment on this?

[Drang]

...it looks to me that while you can swap frame and slides around the same trigger group assembly, you still need a separate slide/barrel and frame for each size. Just how modular is that? Basically I have to buy a whole new pistol (slide and grip frame) to change sizes. Am I correctly understanding that?
No.

If you can buy just the carry grip to put on your full size slide, or the subcompact grip on your carry slide, that would be a more useful degree of modularity to me.
I watched a SIG sales rep demonstrate putting a full-length slide on a carry size grip. Buy a full-size 320 and a carry size frame.

Annoying that you can't seem to buy one with a small or large size frame, though. (Not yet, maybe when production gets fully ramped up...?)

[LOKNLOD]

It appears I stand corrected then, and in that case, I do see the benefits. :cool:

[Drang]

It appears I stand corrected then, and in that case, I do see the benefits. :cool:

He got me -- and then HH6 -- when we realized that we could have the same pistol, only sized properly for each of us, without sending them off to Robar or something. (The comment about retired military qualifying for the LE discount may have helped...)

[John Hearne]

https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/248/9086/10h/origin-d4.scene7.com/is/image/GanderMountainOvertons/GM447568_L1?$product$

As I understand it, this is the compact frame and the 4.7" slide assembly. Just a matter of swapping the grip module and remembering that the longer magazines can go in the shorter frames but not the other way around. (It says 250 but the grip modules are the same across the 250/320 line)

[Drang]

... (It says 250 but the grip modules are the same across the 250/320 line)

And that's one piece of information I've been trying to find, but wasn't able to. Thank you.

I have a co-worker with a 250, but he's obsessed with getting caliber conversions, and I can't seem to get him convinced that top end-swapping within the same caliber has benefits.

[JodyH]

One of Sigs biggest problems is the "gun of the month" thing they do.
I don't know of anybody who can keep up with what's new and what just a warmed over blinged version of another product.
You release a "new" product every month and when you finally do release something that's really new, nobody knows it.
H&K has the opposite problem, releasing one new gun every 5 or 10 years that's really just a more refined (and expensive) USP lulls people to sleep as well.
The VP9 is a notable exception but you see the cold reception it's getting from the "HK Pro's".
The OCD9 crowd is doing their best to kill the VP9 as well.

I really don't see either one of them making major inroads into the civilian or LEO markets.
I have a feeling that the S&W M&P 9mm is going to break out big time in the next year or two, I wouldn't be surprised to see them get some major Fed LEO contracts.

[UNK]

I'm not sure what you are looking for. A LGS has a compact with the compact frame size large. I specifically asked what size frame it was and they told me it was the size large.

No.

I watched a SIG sales rep demonstrate putting a full-length slide on a carry size grip. Buy a full-size 320 and a carry size frame.

Annoying that you can't seem to buy one with a small or large size frame, though. (Not yet, maybe when production gets fully ramped up...?)

[Drang]

I'm not sure what you are looking for. A LGS has a compact with the compact frame size large. I specifically asked what size frame it was and they told me it was the size large.
At the heel of the grip it will be marked with "F", "C" or "S" indicating Full, Carry, or Sub-Com[pact size, a dash, and "L", "M", or "S" for Large, Medium, or Small. It is my understanding that all 320s are shipped with a medium size frame; maybe that's just because I was looking at the LE/MIL price list (retired military qualifies) and that's how they have them listed there.

Also, found a photo on SIG's Facebook page of a Full length slide on a Carry size frame, with full size mag:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10308803_10154084447350532_4652132688397204203_n.j pg?oh=fa0d68c1871be48816c57e5843710877&oe=5537A15F&__gda__=1429527306_27c96e39116c96f94fceeb914bc0c02 b

[YVK]

Maybe my aging eyes, or optical illusion of photography, but on this pic ^^^^ it seems like beavertail isn't super conducive to a high strong hand placement. Am I imagining it, and has anyone put this thing through a Bill or FAST, like, on a timer?

[GJM]

Maybe my aging eyes, or optical illusion of photography, but on this pic ^^^^ it seems like beavertail isn't super conducive to a high strong hand placement. Am I imagining it, and has anyone put this thing through a Bill or FAST, like, on a timer?

I got back to my VP9 and 320 today, and shot them just before dark. It was pretty cold. No chance for timed drills, but I shot them on an 8 inch plate at 50. Both feel accurate, although the 320 seems easier to shoot the steel with at distance. HD sights on the HK and OEM on the 320. For its barrel length, the VP9 is a very long pistol, making its sight radius very close to the Sig despite the Sig's longer barrel. I don't notice the hand placement issue, and prefer how the 320 recoils. It is easy to see how HK fans would prefer the shoot ability of the VP9 over LEM or HK DA/SA options on the rest of their pistol line up. I can also see how Sig fans would like the 320, as it feels very solid and businesslike. I will try to shoot some Bill and other drills tomorrow.

After shooting them, my Glock 19 that I strapped on for the evening hike felt like it pointed high. May pull out a GFA to stay in synch with Gabe.

[UNK]

OP HK VP9 vs Sig 320
I read on another thread here that the HK VP9 Sig 320 and a Walther??? were approximately the same in the trigger department. As I haven't seen much about the Sig 320 I went online searching for reviews and it seems like the Sig 320 trigger is liked more than the HK trigger when they are shot side by side. I was wondering if anyone from this site had the opportunity to shoot them side by side on a timer and if so what the thoughts were.


Maybe my aging eyes, or optical illusion of photography, but on this pic ^^^^ it seems like beavertail isn't super conducive to a high strong hand placement. Am I imagining it, and has anyone put this thing through a Bill or FAST, like, on a timer?


I've got 500 Rd through a new full size 320. I'm over 15 years on Glock. To echo Psalms point the reset is pretty damn short. I've found it remarkably easy to hit with.

My small handed shooters manage the med grip easier than a Glock and reach the controls easier. I've been surprised at the ease of shooting it fast and have found overall faster Bill Drills capable than with my Glocks. I am not sure why.

So far on a few other drills and plate racks, pretty even vs a G17. Trigger feels lighter but scales a pound heavier than my minus connector Glocks to my surprise. We think recoil feels lighter vs G17.

I'm pretty impressed so far.

[CanineCombatives]

One of Sigs biggest problems is the "gun of the month" thing they do.
I don't know of anybody who can keep up with what's new and what just a warmed over blinged version of another product.
You release a "new" product every month and when you finally do release something that's really new, nobody knows it.
H&K has the opposite problem, releasing one new gun every 5 or 10 years that's really just a more refined (and expensive) USP lulls people to sleep as well.
The VP9 is a notable exception but you see the cold reception it's getting from the "HK Pro's".
The OCD9 crowd is doing their best to kill the VP9 as well.

The P320 is already making major inroads in the LE market and it's been out less than a year.

I really don't see either one of them making major inroads into the civilian or LEO markets.
I have a feeling that the S&W M&P 9mm is going to break out big time in the next year or two, I wouldn't be surprised to see them get some major Fed LEO contracts.

The P320 is already making major inroads in LE.

[JBP55]

The P320 is already making major inroads in LE.

You keep saying that and it may be true but you are not willing to share any details on what LEA's are already issuing the P320.

[JHC]

Maybe my aging eyes, or optical illusion of photography, but on this pic ^^^^ it seems like beavertail isn't super conducive to a high strong hand placement. Am I imagining it, and has anyone put this thing through a Bill or FAST, like, on a timer?

On 12-22 on A/C steel I shot 2.29 Bill Drill and 6-7 sec DERPs with all hits. I matched the DERPs with my G17 but the Bill Drill is something else. About 2.5 is the fastest I've managed with a Glock. Even shooting into a birm I struggle to run a trigger any faster. FWIW I did not perceive the degree of front sight lift I've had with a P226.

To GJM's observation - Glocks point/index much higher. After an extended run shooting the 320 from the draw I switched to a G17 and went straight to a Bill Drill and went to blazing because I didn't want to shoot it better with the 320. My sight picture looked like Ayoob's Stressfire index and I missed high. Mixing the two guns concerns me.

[YVK]

Well done, JHC.

Mixing two guns is nooo-nooo, but OK at times.. I've only done it a little :).



Mixing a gun and a Glock is what would really concern me.

[JHC]

Well done, JHC.

Mixing two guns is nooo-nooo, but OK at times.. I've only done it a little :).



Mixing a gun and a Glock is what would really concern me.

Please note the correction - my 320 BD was 2.36. My son shot the 2.29. All else stands.

[UNK]

Can you expound on the complexity issue? I'm pretty sure the LGS is not going to let me break one down at the counter.

... third is the complexity and parts count of the pistol and armorer training needed as compared to the much simpler design of the P320.

[CanineCombatives]

To the first question, I don't work for SIG so I don't have an up to the minute list of agencies that have adopted/approved the P320's
that I can copy and paste here, I do know it's growing if not by the day then by the week, there's an article in the jan 2015 issue of
law officer mag about this and it echoes all the same sentiments of every other department who have tested the P320, the agency
mentioned in the article is Carlsbad PD in cal.

To the second, there has to be an exploded parts diagram for the VP9 somewhere that will illustrate the point, with the P320 it looks to me
on inspection to be an even simpler design than glock, with not only a smaller parts count but also less tiny springs and plastic retainers.



eta: section 9 exploded parts diagram

http://hk-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/VP9-Operators-Manual-08122014.pdf


section 13 for the P320

http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/CmsContent/documents/SIG_P320MiniManual_8501300-01REV00_LR.pdf

[Salamander]

How about multiple issues? How about purple slides? Blue slides? "Diamond Plate"?

If you are referring to my comments re Glock, do you follow that the fact that this firm has never, to my knowledge, ever admitted that there was a fault/problem/issue with any of their pistols? Sure they work feverishly behind the scenes to isolate and fix it… all the while blaming poor training/bad ammo/incompetent users. If you follow that, does it not make you just a bit hesitant or uneasy?

Hey, I'm not trying to "convert" anyone, nor change anyone's opinions. But I find it difficult to swallow that some folks on this forum down-play what was a serious design/QC/whatever issue with a previously sterling product. You expect that sort of thing on GlockTalk, etc. Here, I have come to expect total objectivity and truth.

.

Bad experiences with ca. 2011-2012 gen 3 Glocks are what pushed me to switch to HK in the first place. You're correct that corporate denial contributed a lot to my distaste over that situation, and I certainly have not forgotten it.

I still have an utterly reliable gen 2 G19. That hasn't made me rush out to buy any brand new ones. Being burned before has made me risk averse.

As for the VP9 and P320, it's a moot point until California's roster is gone. Ironic that a law originally written to get cheap Saturday night specials off the street (according to a friend of mine who was in the General Assembly at that time) has been abused to the point that it's keeping newer technology off the shelves.

[LSP972]

As for the VP9 and P320, it's a moot point until California's roster is gone.

Man, I feel for you guys and that communist BS.

.

[psalms144.1]

eta: section 9 exploded parts diagram

http://hk-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/VP9-Operators-Manual-08122014.pdf


section 13 for the P320

http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/CmsContent/documents/SIG_P320MiniManual_8501300-01REV00_LR.pdfSo, P320 has 48 parts not counting the magazine. VP9 has 58, not counting the magazine, but four of those are grip panels, backstrap, and backstrap pin; and two of them are the trigger safety and spring (which the P320 doesn't offer yet, but will in the future). So, when we're looking apples to apples, 48 parts to 52-4. Both comfortably more than Glock's design, neither, IMHO, is wildly far apart in complexity, from a parts perspective.

Doing a true side-by-side comparison, it would seem that the VP9 is measurably larger than the P320 Carry (figured I'd use the two with similar magazine capacity) in all dimensions except width. The VP9 offers an extra .2" of barrel, though, while only being .14" longer - so wouldn't that be an advantage?

I could go down this rabbit hole all night, and I hope y'all take the above in the friendly jest mode in which it's intended. I think they're both great options for different reasons, and I'm really just glad that someone appears to be doing things right while working in Glock's playground. Time will tell what happens in the future...

Regards,

Kevin

[Savage Hands]

Man, I feel for you guys and that communist BS.

.


That's OK, I picked up plenty of off roster Glocks and a P30L to last me the next few years until the roster is gone. Private party transfers are not affected but there's no way I'm paying $1k plus for a VP9 or P320 used when I get guns at cost.

[MVS]

Maybe my aging eyes, or optical illusion of photography, but on this pic ^^^^ it seems like beavertail isn't super conducive to a high strong hand placement. Am I imagining it, and has anyone put this thing through a Bill or FAST, like, on a timer?

Well this guy from Police magazine sure thought the high bore axis effected the way he shot it. http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2014/07/sig-sauer-p320-duty-pistol.aspx

Even in 9mm, the muzzle rise on the P320 was significant. Normally, this kind of recoil is found in high-pressure rounds like the .40 or a 10mm. If the 9mm P320 is difficult to control, I'm afraid the .40 version would be even more so. Managing the recoil was a constant concern of mine throughout my time on the range, and I would have to say it definitely slowed down my follow-up shots.

[GJM]

Well this guy from Police magazine sure thought the high bore axis effected the way he shot it. http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2014/07/sig-sauer-p320-duty-pistol.aspx

Even in 9mm, the muzzle rise on the P320 was significant. Normally, this kind of recoil is found in high-pressure rounds like the .40 or a 10mm. If the 9mm P320 is difficult to control, I'm afraid the .40 version would be even more so. Managing the recoil was a constant concern of mine throughout my time on the range, and I would have to say it definitely slowed down my follow-up shots.

I find the timer a better measure than feel. When it warms up, I have VP9 and 320 out in holsters, and plan to shoot some Bill drills later this morning when it warms up.

[MVS]

I find the timer a better measure than feel. When it warms up, I have VP9 and 320 out in holsters, and plan to shoot some Bill drills later this morning when it warms up.

I am sure we all look forward to the report. I for one would value your input more than someone who to me is random writing a review for Police magazine.

[BigT]

Well this guy from Police magazine sure thought the high bore axis effected the way he shot it. http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2014/07/sig-sauer-p320-duty-pistol.aspx

Even in 9mm, the muzzle rise on the P320 was significant. Normally, this kind of recoil is found in high-pressure rounds like the .40 or a 10mm. If the 9mm P320 is difficult to control, I'm afraid the .40 version would be even more so. Managing the recoil was a constant concern of mine throughout my time on the range, and I would have to say it definitely slowed down my follow-up shots.


Haven't run drills with a 320 against a timer but have shot an IDPA match with one. Subjectively it strongly reminded me of shooting a P226. A little more flip than a G17 but softer perceived recoil. Short of 3m Bill Drills I don't foresee the gun being any less shoot able practically.

[GJM]

OK, what I do for PF. 8F and blowing 20, and I just went out in my crocs and longies to shoot both pistols. Did I say it was cold?

I did a Leatham exercise of shooting some rounds through each pistol, just looking and feeling. I was using a MGM B/C at 25 yards, but not worrying whether each round was a hit -- focusing on the cycling over five round strings. Both times with the VP9, I ended up at .21 splits. The first run with the 320, I ended up at .22 and the second run, .19.

What does it mean -- beats me, although I think preference is going to be determined by attributes other than bore axis/recoil control.

[UNK]

Your efforts are much appreciated.

OK, what I do for PF. 8F and blowing 20, and I just went out in my crocs and longies to shoot both pistols. Did I say it was cold?

I did a Leatham exercise of shooting some rounds through each pistol, just looking and feeling. I was using a MGM B/C at 25 yards, but not worrying whether each round was a hit -- focusing on the cycling over five round strings. Both times with the VP9, I ended up at .21 splits. The first run with the 320, I ended up at .22 and the second run, .19.

What does it mean -- beats me, although I think preference is going to be determined by attributes other than bore axis/recoil control.

[UNK]

It seems to me a thread drift from VP9 vs 320 to VP9 vs 320 and also vs your best previous on the same drills regardless of platform would be a good move or should we start a new thread?
Or some variation of this?

[farscott]

Interesting chatter on HK Pro about $600'ish new P2000 and SK pistols now.

http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/210956-p2000sk-price-drop.html

Something is happening at HK -- it is just I don't know what it is. :rolleyes:

Part of the price drop, just like gas prices, may be related to the relative strength of the US dollar to the Euro. HK costs are set in Euros, so the stronger dollar can buy more Euros. It takes about 10% less to buy a Euro than it did last year.

However, fx rates are not enough to explain $650 P2000 and SK prices. That suggests there may a new gun coming or HK has decided to accept decreased margins in the hope of increasing profits due to higher volume.

[UNK]

I went back to the LGS. It is indeed marked C-M. That is rather remarkable because I have fairly large hands and the fit seemed very good. I would have fully expected to need a large.


At the heel of the grip it will be marked with "F", "C" or "S" indicating Full, Carry, or Sub-Com[pact size, a dash, and "L", "M", or "S" for Large, Medium, or Small. It is my understanding that all 320s are shipped with a medium size frame; maybe that's just because I was looking at the LE/MIL price list (retired military qualifies) and that's how they have them listed there.

[JHC]

Well this guy from Police magazine sure thought the high bore axis effected the way he shot it. http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2014/07/sig-sauer-p320-duty-pistol.aspx

Even in 9mm, the muzzle rise on the P320 was significant. Normally, this kind of recoil is found in high-pressure rounds like the .40 or a 10mm. If the 9mm P320 is difficult to control, I'm afraid the .40 version would be even more so. Managing the recoil was a constant concern of mine throughout my time on the range, and I would have to say it definitely slowed down my follow-up shots.

With a relaxed grip this would be more prominent, I'm weak on bill drills in general and if it was hard to control I'd have not PR'd with the gun. Pretty amazing review. My recoil shy wife found it easier to shoot rapidly than my Glocks. Wow. Just . . .wow.

FWIW I don't prefer the 320 to a Glock yet. But it's a swell pistol.

[MVS]

Went to Gander Mountain today. (That is a whole nother story) They had a 320c on sale for $599.00. I did look at it as it has been a couple of weeks since I handled one. They do feel good and the trigger is nice though heavy. When I read where Mas Ayoob had weighed one at 7.75 lbs I am not doubting that. What I didn't care for about the gun is its size. Even the compact medium that I checked out is quite a bit taller and chunkier than my G19. The Sig seems decent but I am currently leaning towards the VP9.
it is

[JHC]

Went to Gander Mountain today. (That is a whole nother story) They had a 320c on sale for $599.00. I did look at it as it has been a couple of weeks since I handled one. They do feel good and the trigger is nice though heavy. When I read where Mas Ayoob had weighed one at 7.75 lbs I am not doubting that. What I didn't care for about the gun is its size. Even the compact medium that I checked out is quite a bit taller and chunkier than my G19. The Sig seems decent but I am currently leaning towards the VP9.
it is

Lol yeah the bitch does tie up some cubic.

[Luke]

Took my VP9 to our first class today. Not a high round count class but lots of rain and mud, no failures of any kind and the grip did surprisingly OK when wet.

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp81/hook_setter/Mobile%20Uploads/B038A8D8-92F5-44C0-BB5B-78C529FF13BF_zpsmcgvvceq.jpg (http://s400.photobucket.com/user/hook_setter/media/Mobile%20Uploads/B038A8D8-92F5-44C0-BB5B-78C529FF13BF_zpsmcgvvceq.jpg.html)

[LSP972]

Went to Gander Mountain today. (That is a whole nother story) They had a 320c on sale for $599.00. I did look at it as it has been a couple of weeks since I handled one. They do feel good and the trigger is nice though heavy. When I read where Mas Ayoob had weighed one at 7.75 lbs I am not doubting that. What I didn't care for about the gun is its size. Even the compact medium that I checked out is quite a bit taller and chunkier than my G19. The Sig seems decent but I am currently leaning towards the VP9.
it is

If you're looking for G19 size, you won't be happy with the VP9 either. Its G17 size.

.

[MVS]

If you're looking for G19 size, you won't be happy with the VP9 either. Its G17 size.

.

Right you are sir. That is the main reason I haven't purchased one yet. G19 size is about the limit of what I can conceal well.

[CanineCombatives]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/OMEGANOX/G19-P320C_zpse94ae070.jpg



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/OMEGANOX/G19-320Cgrips_zps606444d4.jpg

[davisj]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/OMEGANOX/G19-P320C_zpse94ae070.jpg



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/OMEGANOX/G19-320Cgrips_zps606444d4.jpg
The bottom photo is deceiving as the height of the G19 is centered beside the 320. How about a picture of both such as this photo, G19 on the left and VP9 on the right.

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww65/jdavis6576/imagejpg1_zps61608b14.jpg

[psalms144.1]

On a different forum a member did a 5-way size comparison, G19, P07, P320, VP9 and one other (can't remember the model right now, but not something I'm interested in, obviously). The G19's was clearly the smallest of the three, followed fairly closely by the P07. The P320 was surprisingly bigger - both in OAH and width - both slide and grip noticeably "thicker" than the Glock's. The VP9's slide was thinner than the P320's, and the grip was slimmer as well, but it was noticeably longer in OAH than any other model.

Unfortunately, those photos are down, or I'd cross-reference them for you...

[JBP55]

It is pretty simple, the slide of a VP9 is the length of a G19 and the receiver is the length of a G17.

[Salamander]

Man, I feel for you guys and that communist BS.

.

I'm choosing to look at the bright side; there's a high probability that DOJ is going to lose this one. Just a matter of waiting out the probable endless appeals.

In the meantime, just think how much money I'm saving that can go toward ammo and training instead.... :)

[UNK]

Yes considering the membership on this board I should have said proficient.

Who is this Caleb the GM and why should I be concerned with him? Yes, it takes time to become above average, but my definition of above average may differ from yours.

[Rich]

I'm not trying to imply anything. I'm stating that it looks to me like some folks are down-playing what was a known, serious problem.

I didn't mention any names, but since you commented I'll direct you to the last two sentences in post #75 of this thread. To me, you are saying "I only know of one instance, so it wasn't that big of a deal."

Right, wrong, or indifferent, that's the way your words came across to me. In fact, it was a very big deal.

.

A few years ago I was wanting to buy a G19. But after all the reports of extraction problems I passed on it. I waited another year and still hearing reports of issues. Also M&P 9mm had accuracy issues so I passed on it as well and bought a P30S V3 9mm>

I remember.

[OhioFinance]

To the first question, I don't work for SIG so I don't have an up to the minute list of agencies that have adopted/approved the P320's
that I can copy and paste here, I do know it's growing if not by the day then by the week, there's an article in the jan 2015 issue of
law officer mag about this and it echoes all the same sentiments of every other department who have tested the P320, the agency
mentioned in the article is Carlsbad PD in cal.

To the second, there has to be an exploded parts diagram for the VP9 somewhere that will illustrate the point, with the P320 it looks to me
on inspection to be an even simpler design than glock, with not only a smaller parts count but also less tiny springs and plastic retainers.



eta: section 9 exploded parts diagram

http://hk-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/VP9-Operators-Manual-08122014.pdf


section 13 for the P320

http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/CmsContent/documents/SIG_P320MiniManual_8501300-01REV00_LR.pdf



Unless I'm mistaken from another board, while you do not work for Sig you do have some variety of marketing arrangement/agreement right?

[CanineCombatives]

nope, none.

[OhioFinance]

My mistake.

[GJM]

Thread could have been VP9 vs PPQ. In some ways those pistols are close enough that Walther could have sued. On closer inspection, they are very different in subtle ways that favor the PPQ in pure shooting.

[LOKNLOD]

Thread could have been VP9 vs PPQ. In some ways those pistols are close enough that Walther could have sued. On closer inspection, they are very different in subtle ways that favor the PPQ in pure shooting.

Start a new thread if you must (or revive an old one?) but I'd be interested in hearing more of your thoughts on those two if you're messing with them side by side.

[TORCH2J]

My LGS has FS P320s priced at $519. Is that what you guys are seeing them for?

[JHC]

My LGS has FS P320s priced at $519. Is that what you guys are seeing them for?

I bought a FS with factory tritium sights for $539 in Dec.

[Sensei]

I grabbed a P320c at Gander Mnt last month that was originally priced at $650 but on sell for $500. That means about $530 with tax.

[CanineCombatives]

Try the small grip module, it's pretty amazing.

[JHC]

Try the small grip module, it's pretty amazing.

That's what I'm holding onto my 320 for. To set it up for some specific family members. Have to find some of those; hoping the pipeline will get moving.

[GJM]

That's what I'm holding onto my 320 for. To set it up for some specific family members. Have to find some of those; hoping the pipeline will get moving.

Phrasing -- Grandkids on the way?

[JHC]

Phrasing -- Grandkids on the way?

NO the lads have each just married. But my wife, daughters in law; the women folk in general. They have some really tiny fingers. Separately I'm having profound strong hand thumb conflicts alternating guns. After a while on the 320 where I'm tucking my strong hand thumb down out of the way; it's jacked up when I go back to Glock. To overcome it, I'd really have to want to. So I shoot Glock grip and just accept some slide lock interference on the 320.

I would also like to intro friends shopping for their first defense handgun - to the 320 early before they convince themselves they have to have the main brand. ;)

[JHC]

Phrasing -- Grandkids on the way?

OHHHHH "pipeline". Now I get it! :D

Yeah I meant the Sig parts pipeline. lol

[RAM Engineer]

OHHHHH "pipeline". Now I get it! :D

Yeah I meant the Sig parts pipeline. lol

The promised modularity of the P320 is just vaporware until I'm actually able to go on Midway or Brownells, etc. and buy slides, barrels and grip frames easily. And mags.

[JBP55]

I prefer complete pistols.

[PPGMD]

The promised modularity of the P320 is just vaporware until I'm actually able to go on Midway or Brownells, etc. and buy slides, barrels and grip frames easily. And mags.

They are available from Sig, it is just a wait because they are out of stock. On the Book of Faces there are numerous posting about receiving the caliber conversion kits, and frames. I would hardly consider that vaporware, it is a product that is selling out a rate out pacing production.

Vaporware is the M&P SIRT.

[CanineCombatives]

I order directly from the SIG academy pro shop in NH, they had the grips out to me the next day, $36.00 and change per unit.

[WOLFIE]

Has anyone else seen the you tube video of a 1000 round test of a P320? 1000 rounds were fired as fast as possible with multiple shooters. The frame melted a little in specific places.

[PPGMD]

Has anyone else seen the you tube video of a 1000 round test of a P320? 1000 rounds were fired as fast as possible with multiple shooters. The frame melted a little in specific places.

Yes, and that frame melting is pretty common in polymer guns.

[John Hearne]

Has anyone else seen the you tube video of a 1000 round test of a P320? 1000 rounds were fired as fast as possible with multiple shooters. The frame melted a little in specific places.

Outside of "stupid internet tricks" why would I care? If it was water cooled and belt fed, I'd be concerned.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[MVS]

NO the lads have each just married. Separately I'm having profound strong hand thumb conflicts alternating guns. After a while on the 320 where I'm tucking my strong hand thumb down out of the way; it's jacked up when I go back to Glock. To overcome it, I'd really have to want to. So I shoot Glock grip and just accept some slide lock interference on the 320.

;)

This same thing is happening to me on the VP9. Being left handed it has never been an issue before.

[davisj]

I stopped by a local shop to grab a few boxes of HSTs and was able to compare a 320 compact to a VP9. While the 320 looks smaller the two are virtually identical in height. The official measurements reflect that but the Sig still feels smaller. I have a VP9 and will be getting a 320 compact at some point even though they both fill the same role.

VP9 and 320 Compact

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww65/jdavis6576/image.jpg1_zpsiscpsnbk.jpg

[crossrifles]

I find the timer a better measure than feel. When it warms up, I have VP9 and 320 out in holsters, and plan to shoot some Bill drills later this morning when it warms up.


This is a stock P320 full size in 9mm, HD night sights. Running 124gr rounds. I think you'll be happy with your results. My P320's trigger is 7.65lbs on the digital Lyman scale.

http://youtu.be/GTcnTxmDEHs

[Comedian]

This is a stock P320 full size in 9mm, HD night sights. Running 124gr rounds. I think you'll be happy with your results.

http://youtu.be/GTcnTxmDEHs

The high bore axis doesn't seem to be slowing you down much.

[crossrifles]

The high bore axis doesn't seem to be slowing you down much.

I honestly don't think it can be considered an issue for me. I've often heard it's a problem but there's really no data to show otherwise. I remember watching a manufacturer showing a video of recoil to show how their pistols degree of muzzle rise was the least, due to low bore axis. It looks great, but more important is the shooters capability to control the recoil. Think back to Ernest Langdon at the 2003 IDPA nationals using a Sig P220. Yes I understand Mr. Langdon's skill level is among the best. I think understanding the control of recoil (using grip) and how well the gun tracks allowing for fast follow up shots is far more important than bore axis.

[WOLFIE]

I honestly don't think it can be considered an issue for me. I've often heard it's a problem but there's really no data to show otherwise. I remember watching a manufacturer showing a video of recoil to show how their pistols degree of muzzle rise was the least, due to low bore axis. It looks great, but more important is the shooters capability to control the recoil. Think back to Ernest Langdon at the 2003 IDPA nationals using a Sig P220. Yes I understand Mr. Langdon's skill level is among the best. I think understanding the control of recoil (using grip) and how well the gun tracks allowing for fast follow up shots is far more important than bore axis.

That makes sense. I have seen an accomplished shooter shoot a p226 9mm with extremely fast splits and good accuracy.

[GJM]

That makes sense. I have seen an accomplished shooter shoot a p226 9mm with extremely fast splits and good accuracy.

Me too!

[CanineCombatives]

Bore axis, another one of Gaston's brilliant marketing ruse's.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

If H&K ever releases a P30L length VP9, or even a Glock 34 length model, I won't the able to resist buying one.

[PPGMD]

If H&K ever releases a P30L length VP9, or even a Glock 34 length model, I won't the able to resist buying one.

If history is a guide, you might be in for quite a wait.

[ffhounddog]

How hard is it to go from a VP9 to a Sig P320c. We are ordering custom Sig P320c's for this deployment and it would seem that the price point is lower than we originally thought. I am just wondering if anyone has gone from the VP9 or Glock 19 to a Sig p320c in recent years

[JHC]

How hard is it to go from a VP9 to a Sig P320c. We are ordering custom Sig P320c's for this deployment and it would seem that the price point is lower than we originally thought. I am just wondering if anyone has gone from the VP9 or Glock 19 to a Sig p320c in recent years

I don't think Glock to 320 is a tough switch. Now in my case this was only a 800 round switch when I experimented with a 320 full size when they first came out. I did have a bit of an issue with my high thumbs preventing slide lock from time to time. But before I got that grip change wired I concluded it was not a game changer for me and I divested from it.

It hit index pointing a little differently than the Glock, flatter and lower. Returning to Glock I was way high for a very short spell. But not a big deal.

Grip, trigger, and hits were we least difficult part, with the above exceptions.

[LOKNLOD]

Glock to 320, only thing I found was at first I "felt" my recoil control suffered because I was used to using a much more aggressive support hand wrist angle with the glock. I had to adjust that a bit.

One thing I would encourage if possible is to actually get a chance to choose which grip frame works for each individual. It can make a difference for the large/small handed folks.

[ADKilla]

How hard is it to go from a VP9 to a Sig P320c

I switched last year while awaiting the VP9c. Having shot SIGs before, I had no issues. Reset seemed a tad shorter with the SIG. No overtravel. Bore axis is a myth. I did replace the factory trigger for the Apex flat one. I stippled the front and back straps for a little more control, but that was personal preference. If you can go with the flat slide release to ensure the slide locks back on the last round.