The Humbler

[okie john]

Just saw this on Kyle DeFoor's blog: http://kyledefoor.tumblr.com/page/3

Stage 1- 10 rds slow fire in 10 min
Stage 2- 5 rds in 20 sec from the draw X 2
Stage 3- 5 rds in 10 sec from the draw X 2
Stage 4- 5 rds strong hand in 5 min
Stage 5- 5 rds in 20 sec strong hand from the draw
Stage 6- 5 rds in 10 sec strong hand from the draw
Stage 7- 5 rds weak hand in 5 min
Stage 8- 5 rds kneeling in 5 min
Stage 9- 5 rds in 20 sec standing to kneel with the draw
Stage 10-5 rds prone in 5 min
Stage 11-5 rds in 20 sec standing to prone with the draw

Anyone shooting this? I shot a modified version of it a couple of times this weekend and it's a lot of fun. I scored 628/2X with a Gen3 G17 and 610/2x with a Gen4 G26.


Okie John

[psalms144.1]

We used to shoot it once a month. The name of the drill is VERY accurate. Great drill if you want to really know how your fundamentals are working...

[Wayne Dobbs]

It's well named and that's a nickname for the official "700 Point Aggregate", which is an old time Delta/CAG course. Start out shooting it at 15-20 yards to develop some confidence and then move to 25 yards. It was envisioned around a well set up 1911, so some of the looser shooting striker guns will struggle to get there. When you can consistently shoot a 650/700 at 25 yards, your fundamentals are getting there.

I believe Pat McNamara uses a 500 point version in his classes in which the kneeling and prone stages (all four) are omitted.

[Suvorov]

I used to shoot it fairly often when I was restricted to 25 yards at my range. I modified it a bit so it only used 50 rounds to be a standard yard stick test for me. I still use my 50 round version occasionally when I want to see how I'm doing at distance. Last full 70 round one I show with my Beretta was a 613 about 3 years ago. I should go back and see if I have gotten any better.

[Lyonsgrid]

Shot a version with Vickers this past weekend. Humbler indeed.

[JohnO]

Shot a version with Vickers this past weekend. Humbler indeed.

Yup! I shot Vickers' version in his Advanced Pistol Class I was -8 for the entire drill. There were 30+ in the class and at the end Vickers asked if anyone was in the single digits. I raised my hand and most in the class thought my response was for the last stage and were kind of surprised that it was cumulative for all stages. To be fair Vickers version is easier than the original since a hit anywhere in the black on a B-8 repair center is -0. Larry told me I needed to use the scoring circles.

Northern Red runs the Humbler too. Since JD Potynsky and Kyle Defoor are buds and instructed together it's no surprise JD incorporates the drill. Funny thing was that all our scores were tabulated as we progressed through the stages but we never received our totals. I guess things got busy and I was not keeping track myself.

[DocGKR]

At PMac's classes, we shot the 50 round 500 point aggregate on 25 yd NRA B8 bull's at 25 yards: 10 shots freestyle (two handed) slow fire, two sets of 5 shots freestyle timed fire in 20 sec, 2 sets of 5 shots freestyle rapid fire in 10 sec, 10 shots strong hand slow fire, 10 shots weak hand slow fire. Minimum recommended score of 400, preferably over 450.

[GJM]

I am not sure I understand the logic of having 5 of the 11 tests having a 5 or 10 minute time allotment?

[okie john]

I am not sure I understand the logic of having 5 of the 11 tests having a 5 or 10 minute time allotment?

Probably a legacy from NRA Bullseye shooting, like the 10- and 20-second stages.


Okie John

[mizer67]

If foresee myself losing points in stages 6-7.

[KevinB]

I am not sure I understand the logic of having 5 of the 11 tests having a 5 or 10 minute time allotment?

Part as I understand was mental -- giving folks lots of time can psych some out striving to make the perfect shot.

It is a Drill - not THE drill

[ToddG]

I am not sure I understand the logic of having 5 of the 11 tests having a 5 or 10 minute time allotment?

It is, as said, basically a modified version of a standard NRA/PPC type shooting course. The ridiculously long times are necessary given the (original) precise target. It's pretty unrealistic but comes from a time (and place) that thought accuracy was everything and speed meant one shot every two seconds. Terrorist hostage takers apparently stand very, very still in gunfights. :cool:


It is a Drill - not THE drill

In fairness, there are more than a few folks who hold it out as the pinnacle of practical/defensive/combat pistol shooting.

[okie john]

P
It is a Drill - not THE drill

Based on what I've read, I see it more as a test of fundamentals than a drill.


Okie John

[GJM]

This dovetails with some thinking I have been doing about shooting groups over the last six or nine months, a discussion with Robbie Leatham, and something I heard about the AMU.

1) I heard the AMU is disbanding their bullseye team. The given reason is the purpose of the AMU is to develop methods that are used by the overall Army, and bullseye is not perceived as being as relevant as other shooting skills.

2) My belief that slow fire group shooting is not relevant to me in practical shooting competition, not useful to me in the hunting field, and not useful to me in defensive shooting.

3) Robbie's belief that shooting at SLOW fire pace is actually counterproductive, because it can cause your brain to think you can only make a tough shot without meaningful time pressure.

I get slow fire when you are first learning. I get bullseye as a pursuit in itself. What I don't get is 5 and 10 minute time limits for making shots that have a defensive purpose.

[GJM]

And, lest it be unclear, I am a major proponent of shooting groups, as should be obvious from all I have posted about shooting at 25-100 yards. I just think you should pull the trigger at a pace that is relevant to most of what we expect to do with a handgun.

[ToddG]

I have absolutely no problem shooting slow groups and think it has a lot of benefits for anyone who hasn't perfected -- and I mean perfected -- sights and trigger. With all due respect to TGO, I don't know many people who are hindered by getting better at the sights & trigger fundamentals. Saying that going slow = bad habit is no different to my mind than all the people who claim practicing fast = bad habit. At the end of the day it comes down to understanding what you want out of each shot and utilizing the appropriate amount of trigger & sights to make that happen.

[Kevin B.]

I shoot the first three stages as my warm-up. While I am interested in my overall score, I am more interested in my consistency across each of the stages. The slow-fire establishes my "baseline" accuracy. I am much more interested in how much I deviate from my baseline as I increase my the speed at which I shoot.

In other words, a total score of 270 resulting from 90 points on each stage is a lot better from my perspective than a 270 that results from a 100, a 90 and an 80. I used the same evaluative technique when I shot the 700-point aggregate with some regularity.

While shooting a 700 on the 700-Point Aggregate is an admirable goal, I would be far more interested in being able to deliver a high degree on accuracy on the slow-fire stages and seeing only a slight loss in accuracy when shooting the timed and rapid fire stages.

[okie john]

This dovetails with some thinking I have been doing about shooting groups over the last six or nine months, a discussion with Robbie Leatham, and something I heard about the AMU.

1) I heard the AMU is disbanding their bullseye team. The given reason is the purpose of the AMU is to develop methods that are used by the overall Army, and bullseye is not perceived as being as relevant as other shooting skills.

2) My belief that slow fire group shooting is not relevant to me in practical shooting competition, not useful to me in the hunting field, and not useful to me in defensive shooting.

3) Robbie's belief that shooting at SLOW fire pace is actually counterproductive, because it can cause your brain to think you can only make a tough shot without meaningful time pressure.

I get slow fire when you are first learning. I get bullseye as a pursuit in itself. What I don't get is 5 and 10 minute time limits for making shots that have a defensive purpose.

You’re right—bullseye shooting and gunfighting are pretty much chalk and cheese. Bullseye tests your ability to make small groups on targets that are basically circular rulers at unrealistic distances using outmoded technique. Rules, gear, targets, ammo, even range design are all meant to help you shoot smaller groups and get higher scores, and the game itself hasn't changed much since before the Great Depression.

Slow fire (one shot per minute) lets you shoot/fiddle with gear at your leisure while still posing an administrative time limit. Timed fire (five shots in 20 seconds) is a lot like slow fire, but with slight time pressure. The 20-second limit is psychologically challenging at first, but you soon realize that it's plenty of time to fire five accurate shots, even one-handed. Rapid fire (5 shots in 10 seconds) is just enough faster than timed fire to change the game psychologically yet again.

When I was doing it, I focused on Service Pistol, which meant shooting an accurized 1911 one-handed at 25 yards with GI ball ammo, trying to keep my shots in a 10 ring just over three inches wide. It had nothing to do with gunfighting and everything to do with nailing the fundamentals on every shot with one hand behind my back.

With that focus on fundamentals in mind, consider where The Humbler came from. Most people from that unit will tell you that when it comes to shooting, there are no advanced techniques, only fundamentals executed under increasingly difficult conditions.

As I understand it, The Humbler is a test of fundamentals. I'd guess that the folks who created it keep records of how well their people can shoot it, and that they're very interested in how that looks after a full night’s sleep and a good breakfast versus in pouring rain after making a high-altitude night parachute jump and moving for 40 or 50 hours across rough terrain with minimal sleep and chow. I'd also guess that anyone who shoots the Humbler well after being exhausted to the verge of hallucinating is probably a good person to have around in a fight, and that separating the wheat from the chaff might be the whole unstated point of it. Again, this is just my understanding of one possible use of The Humbler. I could be completely off base.

I agree that The Humbler has limited utility for regular shooters like us. I see it as a well-documented way to measure our ability to execute the fundamentals, while the Hack standards and other tests address more fighting-related skills. It’s up to each of us to identify key variables that might affect how well we shoot The Humbler and incorporate them accordingly, if that makes sense.


Okie John

[Kevin B.]

You’re right—bullseye shooting and gunfighting are pretty much chalk and cheese. Bullseye tests your ability to make small groups on targets that are basically circular rulers at unrealistic distances using outmoded technique. Rules, gear, targets, ammo, even range design are all meant to help you shoot smaller groups and get higher scores, and the game itself hasn't changed much since before the Great Depression.

I am not sure about that. I see a lot of the National Match CoF here:

http://kxan.com/2014/12/01/chief-on-austin-gunman-hate-was-in-his-heart/

[Sal Picante]

I'm going to try this one sometime soon... Maybe I'll do the 500 Agg.

[BWT]

I was practicing head shots at 25 last week. I realized two things, every lapse in the fundamentals was obvious after the trigger break and factory Glock sights are awful. I redeemed myself shooting Warren tactical sights after the factory Glock. I just couldn't get my act together at 25 with the factory sights. The sight blade was as wide or wider than the head but still.

I found it was encouraging for me. Shooting at distance requires your fundamentals be solid. I'm having to learn to shoot more accurately, speed is usually not my concern at competitions. It's waiting to see if I failed to neutralize.

ETA: I brought two Glocks to the range. A 17 and a 19 to test out. The 19 had no hiccups with a mix of about 200 of Blazer brass, Remington FMJ, or Federal FMJ 115 grain 9mm. I was pleased.

[NickDrak]

Shot this for the first time ever last night running my RMR'd G17.

Scored 566

SHO needs work.

I'm gonna try to shoot this or the 500pt version on the 1st of each month to see how I improve.

[Jeff22]

I took a class with Pat McNamara in 2012. His training focuses a LOT on accuracy.

One of the drills we shot was the 500 point aggregate on a NRA B8 target.

I haven't shot that drill in a couple of years. I'm going to do so in the next few weeks and see how it goes. Shooting accuracy drills can be a good way to check your basic skills.

[Gray222]

I took a class with Pat McNamara in 2012. His training focuses a LOT on accuracy.

One of the drills we shot was the 500 point aggregate on a NRA B8 target.

I haven't shot that drill in a couple of years. I'm going to do so in the next few weeks and see how it goes. Shooting accuracy drills can be a good way to check your basic skills.

Do the 700 and make sure you score between every stage.

[okie john]

I've shot this one several times since my original post. Results are

20 DEC 2014 623
21 DEC 2014 610
26 DEC 2014 638
28 DEC 2014 638

23 JAN 2015 605
07 FEB 2015 584
17 APR 2015 618
18 APR 2015 578
01 NOV 2015 587
01 NOV 2015 596

04 FEB 2016 618

I shot all of the scores reported for 2014 and 2015 with Glocks. 2014 was mostly Gen3 G17s. 2015 was Gen3 G17s in the beginning, plus one run with a G26, finishing with a strong skew towards a Gen4 G17 and a Gen4 G19. The 2016 run was with a VP9. Once I get my G43 regulated and zeroed, I'll probably make a run with that, too.

There are a couple of administrative issues with this drill. First is that it requires a 25-yard range that lets you work from the holster. The range where I shoot this drill prohibits holster work as a general rule, but the rangemaster will let me and a couple of other guys do whatever we want if no one else is there. As a result, most of the winter runs were shot in failing light on rainy days, which may have affected my scores.

Another problem is that you have to shoot this drill cold. I seem to remember Kyle DeFoor defining cold as a week without shooting a pistol. I'm on the range often enough that I have trouble getting cold, which explains the gap between April and November in 2015. It also explains the higher scores toward the end of 2014--I was not shooting them cold.

I REALLY like this drill. It's kind of a bitch, but it shows me exactly where I am on fundamentals and where I need to improve. It doesn't cover reloads or real speed work, but we have the Hackathorn Standards and other things for that.


Okie John

[Gray222]

I've shot this one several times since my original post. Results are

20 DEC 2014 623
21 DEC 2014 610
26 DEC 2014 638
28 DEC 2014 638

23 JAN 2015 605
07 FEB 2015 584
17 APR 2015 618
18 APR 2015 578
01 NOV 2015 587
01 NOV 2015 596

04 FEB 2016 618

I shot all of the scores reported for 2014 and 2015 with Glocks. 2014 was mostly Gen3 G17s. 2015 was Gen3 G17s in the beginning, plus one run with a G26, finishing with a strong skew towards a Gen4 G17 and a Gen4 G19. The 2016 run was with a VP9. Once I get my G43 regulated and zeroed, I'll probably make a run with that, too.

There are a couple of administrative issues with this drill. First is that it requires a 25-yard range that lets you work from the holster. The range where I shoot this drill prohibits holster work as a general rule, but the rangemaster will let me and a couple of other guys do whatever we want if no one else is there. As a result, most of the winter runs were shot in failing light on rainy days, which may have affected my scores.

Another problem is that you have to shoot this drill cold. I seem to remember Kyle DeFoor defining cold as a week without shooting a pistol. I'm on the range often enough that I have trouble getting cold, which explains the gap between April and November in 2015. It also explains the higher scores toward the end of 2014--I was not shooting them cold.

I REALLY like this drill. It's kind of a bitch, but it shows me exactly where I am on fundamentals and where I need to improve. It doesn't cover reloads or real speed work, but we have the Hackathorn Standards and other things for that.


Okie John

Good numbers!

It is recommended to run the 700 at least once every 3-4 months to see where you are and run smaller 100/200 drills to set you up for the next time you run the 700.

[victran]

Shot this test back in October at Northern Red class, scored a 492. Suffered greatly from single hand shooting (support hand only was a nightmare). Since then, practicing 25m freestyle at least every range trip since. Freestyle has been aggregated at the 60s-70s. Long way to go.

[Duces Tecum]

2) My belief that slow fire group shooting is not relevant to me in practical shooting competition, not useful to me in the hunting field, and not useful to me in defensive shooting.

True, if it's thought of as a "slow fire group". But if it's considered as (example) "10 singles", then it becomes "10 first shots". The training value increases if the student waits as long as he can (but no longer) as the 60 second mark approaches to begin his reply. There's training value there, if we truly believe the fist shot is the most important.

[JHC]

Hey Okie! The DoW for the Humbler closed before I finally got around to shooting my first Humbler this week. Yeah, it's aptly named.

I shot a G19 for a 562.

1. 95
2. 85
3. 85
4. 39
5. 38
6. 17 (whoa, SHO rapid fire)
7. 43
8. 43
9. 40
10. 38
11. 39

It really illustrates where one needs work! I'll be hitting this again soon. I've got to get my time management under control. Timed fire I was alway done by 14-15 sec. Heck, slowfire I was wrapped up in 2 min max out of patience issues!

[ASH556]

I haven't shot a pistol since Thanksgiving and so to get back in the game I decided to run the Humbler for the first time.

1. 87, 46 sec
2. 89, 14 sec each
3. 71, 7.36 (dropped too many points) and 9.74
4. 46, 80.06 sec
5. 43, 9.81 sec
6. 30, 8.43 sec
7. 25, 31.46 sec
8. 45, 18.51 sec
9. 35, 13.74 sec
10. 43, 24.37 sec
11. 41, 11.76 sec

555/700

Aggregate target (I layered a new b8 for each string):

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/C0623D04-BE4F-4586-A163-2142E9D4F03D.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/C0623D04-BE4F-4586-A163-2142E9D4F03D.jpg.html)