Getting used to a revolver trigger.

[Petrov]

Hey guys, I am still having trouble getting used to the revolver trigger.
I can shoot 3"-4" 10 shot groups all day at 25 yards with my Ruger Mk3, but when I shoot with my S&W 627 with 4" barrel the best I can do is 8" 8 shot group.
I stage the trigger and when the shot is about to break it always manages to shift, I dont have this problem shooting my CZ-75 or G19. Is it just the weight of the trigger that I have to get used to?

[Wheeler]

Hey guys, I am still having trouble getting used to the revolver trigger.
I can shoot 3"-4" 10 shot groups all day at 25 yards with my Ruger Mk3, but when I shoot with my S&W 627 with 4" barrel the best I can do is 8" 8 shot group.
I stage the trigger and when the shot is about to break it always manages to shift, I dont have this problem shooting my CZ-75 or G19. Is it just the weight of the trigger that I have to get used to?

Will the 627 shoot tighter groups single action with the same ammo? You need a baseline of accuracy before comparing it to another gun. Once you establish what the gun is capable of with your ammo at a specified range, I'd suggest dryfire and live fire at a 1" dot starting at 3' and continue to push it back until you get to 25 yards.

[Alpha Sierra]

Do not stage the trigger. Commit to the trigger in one continuous, aggressive pull.

[Petrov]

I only shot it a couple of times in single action mode with my load. I got a 4" group at 25 yard with a half assed attempt.

[1986s4]

Do not stage the trigger. Commit to the trigger in one continuous, aggressive pull.

This. I would add a good strong grip as well. The greater your maximum strength is the better your average.

[GJM]

Do not stage the trigger. Commit to the trigger in one continuous, aggressive pull.

This, although I might substitute "continuously increasing pressure" for aggressive, as it is more descriptive of the motion, than "aggressive," which better describes the attitude required.

You can always buy a Beretta as a practice aid. :)

[Wheeler]

Do not stage the trigger. Commit to the trigger in one continuous, aggressive pull.

I don't think one method is necessarily better than the other although working with a continuous pull might be better for Petrov, at least to experiment with. YMMV of course.

[LSP972]

You can always buy a Beretta as a practice aid. :)

Or an FEG PA-63. I "did" one of those this morning, and almost gave myself a hernia on the DA pull.

.

[Petrov]

I have a CZ-75 decocker with a stock mainspring :)

[Chuck Haggard]

As noted, staging is likely your issue.

[Hizzie]

How well does the gun/grips fit your hand? I cannot shoot N frames well DA due to the long trigger reach and poor finger placement it causes me.

[Petrov]

How well does the gun/grips fit your hand? I cannot shoot N frames well DA due to the long trigger reach and poor finger placement it causes me.

I have the stock houge rubber grip with finger grooves and I have small hands. I grip it high, the hammer often hits my thumb and the web between the index finger and the thumb and the lower 1/3rd of the grip is always exposed because I grip high and have small hands. My pinkie and ring finger tend to get jammed together due to large "finger" grooves being too large for me.

[Hizzie]

The answer to your problem might be a K/L frame. Or GP100 ;)

[Alpha Sierra]

Two thoughts after getting more information

1. The CZ 75's DA trigger stacks a little towards the end. If you are used to that sensation, it would seem to make sense to try to duplicate it with a S&W revolver by staging the trigger. A stacking trigger, and purposefully staging one that doesn't stack both lead to a pause that creates uncertainty about the sight picture/sight alignment; which then leads to a panic to try to get the shot off RFN, which leads to poor results.

2. The N frame's trigger reach may be too much depending on the grips you are using. Or it may be too much no matter what. In which case +1 to what Hizzie said.

[Petrov]

I dont think that the trigger reach is the problem, I am able to grasp the pistol so high I wind up using the joint instead the pad of the finger.

[Hizzie]

If you think your grip is not the problem please post a pic of it.

[Petrov]

Will do after the wife gets back home. I texted her and had to explain that I was literal when I said that I needed her to "take pictures of me holding my pistol show I can show it to strange men on the internet"

[Petrov]

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8598/15895979850_0f00658738_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qdF417)1222141821c (https://flic.kr/p/qdF417) by petrov1983 (https://www.flickr.com/people/25059829@N04/), on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7477/15463612803_71cae72683_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pyt4kR)1222141821 (https://flic.kr/p/pyt4kR) by petrov1983 (https://www.flickr.com/people/25059829@N04/), on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7548/16083277255_1b105cc589_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qvdZZH)1222141820a (https://flic.kr/p/qvdZZH) by petrov1983 (https://www.flickr.com/people/25059829@N04/), on Flickr




I would like to think that I do not have ego problems so if my shit looks all fucked up and I am retarded please tell me.



Oh and as a bonus I will throw in this picture here of NY legal 7 round assault clip(it was 8 but I made it complaint):
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8044/8390347897_aea8bbe071_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/dMqJ7D)20130117_185501 (https://flic.kr/p/dMqJ7D) by petrov1983 (https://www.flickr.com/people/25059829@N04/), on Flickr

[Jay Cunningham]

Dude, your thumb placement is doing NOTHING for you.

I recommend dropping your firing hand thumb straight down at the first joint and then locking your support hand thumb over top of it. Failing that you can do a thumbs-forward grip, but I'm not a fan of it with revolvers.

[Alpha Sierra]

I recommend dropping your firing hand thumb straight down at the first joint and then locking your support hand thumb over top of it.
Between this advice and not staging the trigger you should have some solid tools to work with.

Give those changes a fair shake.

[1slow]

Thumbs up can get very uncomfortable with .44 Magnum and up calibers.

[Hizzie]

It looks like you have the gun shifted in your grip to get trigger reach. The gun should line up straight with the bones in your forearm.

As stated above go thumbs down and smash the bottom one with the top.

[Jay Cunningham]

It looks like you have the gun shifted in your grip to get trigger reach. The gun should line up straight with the bones in your forearm.

I reject this premise. The gun should be where it needs to be so that when the trigger is pulled the gun doesn't move- this is determined during dry practice.

What you have stated may possibly be an important aspect of traditional bullseye shooting, but it's not a factor in defensive/practical shooting.

[Wheeler]

I reject this premise. The gun should be where it needs to be so that when the trigger is pulled the gun doesn't move- this is determined during dry practice.

What you have stated may possibly be an important aspect of traditional bullseye shooting, but it's not a factor in defensive/practical shooting.

It's actually a very important part of shooting a double action revolver properly. If the gun is canted or the wrist is not lined up the shots will not hit at PoA.

[Petrov]

I tried weak thumb over the strong thumb I could not get my weak hand to touch the grip, thumbs forward was simple enough though so I will try that. The idea behind me putting my thumbs on the blast shield was mostly because it felt comfortable and I thought that it would help with the recoil, now that I think about it due to geometry I am probably introducing alot of sideways pull pushing on he blast shield like that.

Weak thumb over strong thumb:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7517/16058397016_b8b0efa7d5_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qt2tY5)1222142107 (https://flic.kr/p/qt2tY5) by petrov1983 (https://www.flickr.com/people/25059829@N04/), on Flickr

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8679/16084196455_a24817b2c2_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qviHeZ)1222142107a (https://flic.kr/p/qviHeZ) by petrov1983 (https://www.flickr.com/people/25059829@N04/), on Flickr

[Petrov]

It looks like you have the gun shifted in your grip to get trigger reach. The gun should line up straight with the bones in your forearm.

As stated above go thumbs down and smash the bottom one with the top.

Do you mean that my trigger finger and the trigger not forming 90 degree angle i.e. pulling straight back? I cant grip it like that, when I grab the gun my hand naturally goes and grips the pistol high.
I have to have the gun gripped pretty darn low to have all of that stuff line up and it just levers REALLY badly not much recoil control at all.

[orionz06]

It's actually a very important part of shooting a double action revolver properly. If the gun is canted or the wrist is not lined up the shots will not hit at PoA.




Esplain me pleaze.

[GJM]

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK2/miculek2.html

[Malamute]

Jerry Miculeks ideas on gripping a revolver,

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK2/miculek2.html

ETA: good choice GJM. :D



Esplain me pleaze.

I think he means if the gun isnt lined up evenly (side to side wise) with the line of the arm, it recoils differently and can hit off line of the sights.

[Jay Cunningham]

I tried weak thumb over the strong thumb I could not get my weak hand to touch the grip, thumbs forward was simple enough though so I will try that. The idea behind me putting my thumbs on the blast shield was mostly because it felt comfortable and I thought that it would help with the recoil, now that I think about it due to geometry I am probably introducing alot of sideways pull pushing on he blast shield like that.

Weak thumb over strong thumb:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7517/16058397016_b8b0efa7d5_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qt2tY5)1222142107 (https://flic.kr/p/qt2tY5) by petrov1983 (https://www.flickr.com/people/25059829@N04/), on Flickr

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8679/16084196455_a24817b2c2_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qviHeZ)1222142107a (https://flic.kr/p/qviHeZ) by petrov1983 (https://www.flickr.com/people/25059829@N04/), on Flickr

Dude, not that way.

While the following pic isn't perfect, it's pretty close to what I was referring to:

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/22/149bce0a70f525329c4dc02200576efc.jpg

[orionz06]

Jerry Miculeks ideas on gripping a revolver,

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK2/miculek2.html

ETA: good choice GJM. :D




I think he means if the gun isnt lined up evenly (side to side wise) with the line of the arm, it recoils differently and can hit off line of the sights.

That sounds like a potential issue for follow up shots, not the problem in this thread as I understand it.

[Malamute]

What Jay said.

Petrov, would add, your support hand looks rolled forward with the palm out and wrist out. Pull it back so it contacts the firing hand and helps support more on the side rather than the fingers just wrapped around the front without much else happening with the palm and heel of the hand.

[Jay Cunningham]

Jerry Miculeks ideas on gripping a revolver,

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK2/miculek2.html


Does his revolver look aligned with his forearm?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/22/00ea19dd3c76061e5241be6396d406fd.jpg


What about this pic?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/22/83bf46afa1fa8bdb17c4ff4ed4a5a76d.jpg


Is his revolver in line with his forearm in this pic?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/22/8d668e0ce91cdc94525f8234c47834c9.jpg


Straight line?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/22/dd4c9f6d1cc72a0031010e95a00ddedb.jpg


What about now?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/22/c5a782f770ae2c929755bc70889ba4e8.jpg


Does the revolver appear to line up straight with the bones in his forearm?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/22/af4605d8387fc4c04ea59181adedfa5d.jpg

[Malamute]

I wasnt referencing the alignment, I was addressing the grip/hand placement.

The other comment was attempting to figure out what somebody else meant. Orion06 was asking about wheelers comment about alignment.

[Petrov]

Dude, not that way.

While the following pic isn't perfect, it's pretty close to what I was referring to:

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/22/149bce0a70f525329c4dc02200576efc.jpg

Ok I tried the way you showed in the picture, my and moved it around and tried a bunch of positions, I just cant get my support hand on the grip when I am putting weak hand thumb over the trigger hand thumb.

But I did notice improvement in the left to right sight wandering in the thumbs forwards position vs me parking my thumbs behind the blast shield.

[Jay Cunningham]

I wasnt referencing the alignment, I was addressing the grip/hand placement.

The other comment was attempting to figure out what somebody else meant.

I was directing this more towards two previous posters. Bringing up Miculek was convenient for illustration purposes.

[Malamute]

:D

Good pictures!

Miculek is great! I'm waiting for him to come up in a trigger discussion.

[GJM]

:D

Good pictures!

Miculek is great! I'm waiting for him to come up in a trigger discussion.

As I recall, he doesn't stage the trigger DA -- just presses straight through.

[Malamute]

That too.

Something else though.

[Wheeler]

I was directing this more towards two previous posters. Bringing up Miculek was convenient for illustration purposes.

Bringing up Jerry in a semi auto vs revolver debate is verboten but ok here? It's long been established that he's a force of nature and not a mere human. Why not review Grant Cunningham's guide for those of us that aren't superhuman?

[Hizzie]

Ok. We have a misunderstanding. Now I get the bullseye reference.

http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae322/strangler366/Revolvers/image_zps139a1884.jpg (http://s984.photobucket.com/user/strangler366/media/Revolvers/image_zps139a1884.jpg.html)

I was talking specifically how the gun sits in the hand. Obviously it would be impossible to use an isosceles stance and maintain a wrist straight with the forearm.

[Jay Cunningham]

Bringing up Jerry in a semi auto vs revolver debate is verboten but ok here?

What do you mean? I don't recall a semi-auto vs. revolver debate.



Why not review Grant Cunningham's guide for those of us that aren't superhuman?

Does Grant Cunningham shoot with his revolver directly in line with his forearm?

[Jay Cunningham]

Obviously it would be impossible to use an isosceles stance and maintain a wrist straight with the forearm.

Well... of course it would. But why do people keep insisting on this trope?

[Malamute]

I think the main idea with the arm and hand relationship is having the gun centered in the hand side to side (not twisted or rolled offcenter), not that you can have the gun and forearm lined up in two hand shooting. Thats my take away from it. In that context I think its a reasonable idea.

The Grant Cunningham reference is interesting to read. Was related to my trigger comments also.

[Jay Cunningham]

Can you link to it?

[Malamute]

Sure.

http://www.grantcunningham.com/good_trigger.html

Dont know if thats the exact same one Wheeler was refering to.

[Hizzie]

Todd Jarrett on grip.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9egs6_ipsc-todd-jarrett-pistol-grip-lesso_sport

[Jay Cunningham]

I read it but it didn't really speak to me... way too much nuance about triggers to be truly useful IMO.

Me, I'm going to grab that revolver hard and high, lock that grip in with my thumbs, and smash that trigger without moving the gun.

That will keep me in the A Zone within 15 yards - I can finesse tighter or longer shots as necessary.

[Malamute]

The trigger stuff is interesting to me. I dont mash them so much, unless just wanting to go fast. Which I dont do that much. Not primarily anyway. I shoot longer distance more than anything.

The part I've been waiting to come up in discussion is most like smooth triggers. I dont care for them. It seems Miculek doesnt either.

I'm with you on the gripping the gun.

[Jay Cunningham]

I - like many others claim to - prefer a trigger with a "rolling break"... but I've found that not a lot of people know what it is that they're trying to describe.

*My* definition of "rolling break" is that a constant pressure applied to the trigger results in a constant trigger speed.

[Dagga Boy]

What is funny on the ISO vs. Weaver thing is that I am a Weaverish shooter, but when I started shooting competitively and as a young cop with revolvers I shot a very hard ISO as it was more about "shooting" than fighting with a handgun (not wanting to start that argument on stances, just a point about where I was). Often when I start running a revolver hard, I slip back to my roots with the ISO platform. I don't find wrist alignment nearly as much an issue with revolvers than with auto's with a reciprocating slide.

[Wheeler]

I read it but it didn't really speak to me... way too much nuance about triggers to be truly useful IMO.

Me, I'm going to grab that revolver hard and high, lock that grip in with my thumbs, and smash that trigger without moving the gun.

That will keep me in the A Zone within 15 yards - I can finesse tighter or longer shots as necessary.

Therein lies part of the problem. The OP was asking about shooting better groups at 25 yards, not your ability to get A zone hits at 15. All you've done thus far is deflect from the original question with your perception of how things should be done.

[Jay Cunningham]

His pictured grip is not going to help him shoot tighter groups at 25 yards. Slowly staging the trigger generally leads to anticipation.

A strong, proper grip on the revolver will allow the OP a more aggressive trigger manipulation without moving the gun at the moment of discharge.

[Wheeler]

His pictured grip is not going to help him shoot tighter groups at 25 yards. Slowly staging the trigger generally leads to anticipation.

A strong, proper grip on the revolver will allow the OP a more aggressive trigger manipulation without moving the gun at the moment of discharge.

I agree about the grip. Staging the trigger does not necessarily lead to anticipation a note than knowing where the trigger break is on a striker fired gun. While it can lead to anticipation the recommendation of dryfire will help the OP work through that, especially when doing dot drills.

Staging the trigger for precise shots works well for me. The blanket assessment that it's a Bad Thing shows a decided lack of open mindedness across the board.

[Jay Cunningham]

I agree that staging the trigger can work, and often does. I also strongly believe that in many cases it creates anticipation problems, even with experienced shooters who have more or less mastered this methodology.

While we're talking about open minds, do me a favor next time you dry practice and try accelerating your trigger manipulation while holding your sights still; ensure your grip supports this. Let me know your results!

[TiroFijo]

I agree about the grip. Staging the trigger does not necessarily lead to anticipation a note than knowing where the trigger break is on a striker fired gun. While it can lead to anticipation the recommendation of dryfire will help the OP work through that, especially when doing dot drills.

Staging the trigger for precise shots works well for me. The blanket assessment that it's a Bad Thing shows a decided lack of open mindedness across the board.

I can shoot very accurately staging the trigger, and I can stage it is slow motion or a more fluid movement. For me, it does not lead to anticipation/trigger jerk, in fact I often shoot groups just as small (sometimes smaller) in DA than in SA. For magnum calibers, shooting DA two handed gives me a very consistent grip, something that is very useful for consistent POI. My grip is just like the Miculek videos.

When shooting really fast DA, of course I don't stage the trigger.

[Jay Cunningham]

Guys, I think you're starting to chase down a rabbit hole with the trigger manipulation.

I'm trying to help the OP with his issues. His pictured grip on his revolver is a big problem. Once he gets a much more workable grip figured out, he needs to test it in dry practice. The test is: operating the trigger without the gun appreciably moving. A slow, staged, trigger manipulation is not going to give much useful feedback in this regard.

If the OP can aggressively manipulate his trigger (dry) without disturbing his sights (moving the gun) then his grip is good to go. During live fire he can use whatever methodology works for him and his particular trigger, *now that he's got his grip issues sorted out*.

[Petrov]

Guys I appreciate all the help, I will hit up the gun range today and shoot some groups and come back with the results.
Strange for me to see so many people do strong thumb under weak thumb, I cant get any appreciable amount of my weak hand on the grip if I do that.

[Wheeler]

I agree that staging the trigger can work, and often does. I also strongly believe that in many cases it creates anticipation problems, even with experienced shooters who have more or less mastered this methodology.

While we're talking about open minds, do me a favor next time you dry practice and try accelerating your trigger manipulation while holding your sights still; ensure your grip supports this. Let me know your results!

I'll start a new thread. This leads to an interesting discussion. I concur that we've moved past the OP's original intent.

[Petrov]

Also I think I will add to this tangent, will try staging and not staging the trigger too.

[Jay Cunningham]

I cant get any appreciable amount of my weak hand on the grip if I do that.

Does your Ruger Mk3 have bigger grips (stocks) than your S&W 627?

[Petrov]

Does your Ruger Mk3 have bigger grips (stocks) than your S&W 627?

Honestly, that is kinda hard to quantify due to different shapes but I would have to say yes. I have the pachmayar grips on the Ruger mk3 and I pull the trigger using the pad of my finger.
If I try to shoot the 627 with the pad of my finger it slides into my joint.

[Jay Cunningham]

Honestly, that is kinda hard to quantify due to different shapes but I would have to say yes. I have the pachmayar grips on the Ruger mk3 and I pull the trigger using the pad of my finger.
If I try to shoot the 627 with the pad of my finger it slides into my joint.

Okay dude, this is going to sound pretty far out, but...

...you may want to consider putting bigger grips on your 627.

:cool:

[Alpha Sierra]

Petrov, I can lend you a pair of Ahrends round butt N frame stocks and you can see if they make the pistol fit you better. I would need them back, but now you would know, risk free, if they are worth buying your own.

One other thing, I never use the pad of my trigger finger to work my revolvers. I always stick the finger in to the first joint.

[Petrov]

Petrov, I can lend you a pair of Ahrends round butt N frame stocks and you can see if they make the pistol fit you better. I would need them back, but now you would know, risk free, if they are worth buying your own.

One other thing, I never use the pad of my trigger finger to work my revolvers. I always stick the finger in to the first joint.

Thanks for the offer, I got to hold them once and that divot/transition on top of the stocks really bothers me and I didnt like it.
I am actually looking at getting thse Nil grips: http://cdn3.volusion.com/mzvdh.xdarg/v/vspfiles/photos/SW0151-2.jpg

[Petrov]

Okay dude, this is going to sound pretty far out, but...

...you may want to consider putting bigger grips on your 627.

:cool:

Doesnt sound crazy at all. I tried a pair of Trausch rubber grips and I managed to get a hold of the pistol much better, the problem was the had a ridge on top of the stocks that did not allow you to grip the revolver higher.

[Petrov]

Ok back from the range my single action and double action groups were the same size. I was able to shrink my groups using the thumbs forward position and it reduced my vertical stringing vs when I was shooting with my thumbs on the blast shield.
Wasnt staging the trigger either. My best group(8shots):

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7560/16088542061_d60fd63bce_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qvFZ3e)1223141607 (https://flic.kr/p/qvFZ3e) by petrov1983 (https://www.flickr.com/people/25059829@N04/), on Flickr

I did have 2 or 3 shots out of 100 that looked like key holes though.

[Petrov]

Dragged out my Dan Wesson 6" target gun got 1.5" inch group with the same ammo. I think there is something up with my S&W revolver.

[Wheeler]

Dragged out my Dan Wesson 6" target gun got 1.5" inch group with the same ammo. I think there is something up with my S&W revolver.

This goes back to my original suggestion to establish a baseline of accuracy. You have to know what the gun is capable of with the ammo you're using before you can diagnose any problems you might have.

[rsa-otc]

I agree with Wheeler. Get someone else who is a good shot to ring the gun out. The keyhole shots may just be a hint that the gun has a couple of Chambers that are out of time and are deforming or shaving the bullet when it makes the transition between the cylinder and forcing cone.

[tcRenegade]

You're reading too much BS out there! Forget about "staging" the trigger, it's BS! One fluid, smooth pull.

[Petrov]

Cleaned the barrel and the cone, I have a large triangular "smear"/mark that extends from the forcing cone to the rifling.

[TiroFijo]

You're reading too much BS out there! Forget about "staging" the trigger, it's BS! One fluid, smooth pull.

Stagging a trigger is just another tool in the box, and it works very well if you master it. Don't just take my word for it:

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK4/miculek4.html

"The next method of shooting a revolver is called staging a trigger and what that entails is that you grab the revolver in a standard firing mode, but you work your trigger really quick to the rear and that will index the cylinder fully and it will cock the hammer about three quarter of the way and with the last of the trigger pull, get a perfect sight of a alignment, and you press the trigger straight to the rear. This technique is really good on a hard shot or a long range target. It takes up about three quarters of the trigger pull and all you have to do is finish it off and make a real accurate shot."

[jetfire]

Thoughts: staging the trigger is great for making single shots on low percentage targets under no time pressure. It sucks for anything else.

Further thoughts: revo triggers aren't hard - like Jay said, just pull it to the rear as fast as possible without disturbing the sights.

And finally, I wouldn't take free shooting advice from Grant. He's a good gunsmith, but as shooter leaves a lot to be desired.

[RevolverRob]

So much angsty rage in this thread...

Petrov, let me see if I can help a bit.



https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8598/15895979850_0f00658738_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qdF417)1222141821c (https://flic.kr/p/qdF417) by petrov1983 (https://www.flickr.com/people/25059829@N04/), on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7477/15463612803_71cae72683_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pyt4kR)1222141821 (https://flic.kr/p/pyt4kR) by petrov1983 (https://www.flickr.com/people/25059829@N04/), on Flickr

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7548/16083277255_1b105cc589_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qvdZZH)1222141820a (https://flic.kr/p/qvdZZH) by petrov1983 (https://www.flickr.com/people/25059829@N04/), on Flickr

I would like to think that I do not have ego problems so if my shit looks all fucked up and I am retarded please tell me.


Okay, your strong hand is way too high on the gun. Drop it down a bit so the top of the web of your hand is flush with the top of the revolver hump, no higher. Flag your strong hand thumb down, so it rolls over and touches the stock.


I tried weak thumb over the strong thumb I could not get my weak hand to touch the grip, thumbs forward was simple enough though so I will try that. The idea behind me putting my thumbs on the blast shield was mostly because it felt comfortable and I thought that it would help with the recoil, now that I think about it due to geometry I am probably introducing alot of sideways pull pushing on he blast shield like that.

Weak thumb over strong thumb:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7517/16058397016_b8b0efa7d5_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qt2tY5)1222142107 (https://flic.kr/p/qt2tY5) by petrov1983 (https://www.flickr.com/people/25059829@N04/), on Flickr

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8679/16084196455_a24817b2c2_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qviHeZ)1222142107a (https://flic.kr/p/qviHeZ) by petrov1983 (https://www.flickr.com/people/25059829@N04/), on Flickr

Right this is better, but the strong hand still needs to be lower. To fix the weak hand, start with the weak hand fingers, clasp them over the strong hand fingers, roll the weak hand around and lock the thumb behind your strong hand. Note: the weak thumb doesn't have to ride up against the hump. Get it anywhere on the strong hand, where your weak hand contacts the strong fingers and stock first, and then press in with the weak hand thumb to firm up the grip. (I don't have a revolver on hand to show you exactly what I mean, but I will find something to grip and have my wife take a picture when she gets home for reference).

__

Regarding the trigger pull. I agree with Caleb, staging is useful for low percentage shots with no time limit. For the vast majority of double action shots, you want a straight back pull. I default to the language Clint Smith uses to describe a DA revolver pull - it's not a pull or squeeze, it's a S-T-R-O-K-E. Breath in, breath out, stroke that trigger straight on back. If you imagine a stroke as a longer more deliberate move, it helps a lot in the timing. When training new revolver shooters, I always lengthen the word "stroke" to be approximately the same steady length it takes to work a DA trigger of about 12 pounds of weight. You can figure this out and practice it yourself. - It helps.

Regarding accuracy -

1) I think you might have a mechanical issue as well. Shoot the gun with lead bullets and inspect after firing each chamber individually to look for splatter on the forcing cone, indicating you have a mechanical issue (Caleb had a great post on something to this effect he was seeing in a Taurus on Gun Nuts a few months ago, it had great pictures of what to look for, it might also be on here? I admittedly haven't had a chance to check his Taurus thread to see if it is there. None-the-less you can find it on Gun Nuts if you search Revolver or Taurus, I believe).

2) You might also and/or instead have an accuracy issue from poorly regulated sights - 627s have adjustable sights, have you adjusted them? Importantly, have you adjusted them to the bullet weight you are shooting? Most .357 magnums from Smith come factory regulated against 125-grain bullets, .38 specials are regulated against 158-grain bullets. At 10-15 yards you probably won't notice a difference, but at 25 you probably will. If you have not touched the sights and are running 158-grain .38 specials for accuracy testing I bet swapping to 125-grain .357s tightens your groups considerably, in a hurry. You can try 130-grain .38 special FMJs if you can find them.

___

Most importantly - ONLY change ONE thing at a time so we can help you diagnose the issues you are having.

Best,

-Rob

[RevolverRob]

Okay - grip thoughts, by me, using not a revolver. Also, note I am not left handed, but I demonstrated these lefty for you, Petrov, in hopes that it helps.

http://i.imgur.com/hajbc5Y.jpg

Okay, here I am pointing out my revolver "hump", for reference.

http://i.imgur.com/wD4qUb0.jpg

My hand is stretched out here, but the important thing to note is the height of the web of my hand relative to the "hump", and how I have flagged my thumb down to touch the "stock".

http://i.imgur.com/EqqVOnh.jpg

Now, the support hand. Bringing the fingers in and grasping in this way....

http://i.imgur.com/jH9SDVM.jpg

I can roll the palm over and press it in. Here is how I normally hold my revolver, with the support thumb flagging the shooting hand thumb. However...we can go one step further, the behind the hand grasp. Which is very strong...

http://i.imgur.com/KDZinxG.jpg

Shown here. I can then squeeze the support hand, against the strong hand, hard. By compressing everything with both hands I am easily able to compress this 15-pound hand grip and hold it steady for 60 seconds. Importantly, and it is a bit hard to see here, sorry, but my support thumb is below the hump. It is wherever it needs to be to allow my palm to compress against the stock and hand.

---

I hope this helps with grip issues. I do think part of your accuracy issues are grip related. They intimately relate to how you stroke the trigger. Note: I am not saying this is the way to do it. It is a way of doing it, that works for me. When working with a new gun, I try to start here and adjust until I have firm and clear control over the trigger. While trying to keep the basics, thumbs down, wrists locked, both palms in contact with the stocks, intact.

-Rob

[TiroFijo]

Regarding the trigger pull. I agree with Caleb, staging is useful for low percentage shots with no time limit. For the vast majority of double action shots, you want a straight back pull. I default to the language Clint Smith uses to describe a DA revolver pull - it's not a pull or squeeze, it's a S-T-R-O-K-E. Breath in, breath out, stroke that trigger straight on back. If you imagine a stroke as a longer more deliberate move, it helps a lot in the timing. When training new revolver shooters, I always lengthen the word "stroke" to be approximately the same steady length it takes to work a DA trigger of about 12 pounds of weight. You can figure this out and practice it yourself. - It helps.
___

Most importantly - ONLY change ONE thing at a time so we can help you diagnose the issues you are having. -Rob

Great description of the DA trigger stroke, and good advice, Rob :)

[Petrov]

thanks for the advice I tried it your way, strong hand thumb under weak hand thumb just doesnt work for me. I have large square thumbs I just get get any appreciable amount of my support hand on the pistol/grip for this grip style to work.
I ordered a nil grip that I was talking about before. Texted my friend (who is an insane S&W revolver hoarder erm I mean collector), he had a nil grip like that so I came over and tried it.
I had a grip that was too small, the current black rubber one, another grip that was too large causing the whole gun to wobble when I release/reset the trigger. Nil felt very well, better than either actually.
On a side not I am sending the gun back to S&W, after cleaning and examination I found a strange "smear" that went from the forcing cone all the way back to the rifling. The mark is very smooth part of it is in the rifiling and part of it is in the forcing cone, it is really smooth and there is no jaggedness to.

[jh9]

On a side not I am sending the gun back to S&W, after cleaning and examination I found a strange "smear" that went from the forcing cone all the way back to the rifling. The mark is very smooth part of it is in the rifiling and part of it is in the forcing cone, it is really smooth and there is no jaggedness to.

If you've shot the gun with soft lead bullets, the smear is just lead. It won't come out with just scrubbing if you're using solvent that's designed for copper (i.e.jacketed bullets). Which is most solvent on the shelf. Even if you sat there and counted out 100 passes with the brush. It'll still be there.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/398676/shooters-choice-lead-remover-bore-cleaning-solvent-4-oz-liquid

Ask people that used to shoot a lot of lead in revolvers in PPC/Ipsc/Idpa. Most will tell you the same thing. It's a pain to get out sometimes, depending on how soft the bullet was, how many rounds fired, etc. I've never used the lewis lead remover, but people have said good things about it.

Normally I do a deep clean on the bore when I'm done shooting revolver for the year. Soak several patches in lead solvent and let it sit for a few hours. 50 or so passes with a NEW .38 cal brozne brush. Repeat once or twice until the bore is actually clean.

Used to be I would shoot revolver for about 6-8 months, do the horribly disgusting task of removing what felt like a pound of lead from the bore, and then shoot the plastic gun for about the same amount of time. Rinse and repeat. Personally, I don't like the idea of only shooting one gun. Too easy to get into a rut. But other people disagree.

My current USPSA revolver (627 pro like yours) has a filthy bore. I expect I won't care until around April.

[Petrov]

If you've shot the gun with soft lead bullets, the smear is just lead. It won't come out with just scrubbing if you're using solvent that's designed for copper (i.e.jacketed bullets). Which is most solvent on the shelf. Even if you sat there and counted out 100 passes with the brush. It'll still be there.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/398676/shooters-choice-lead-remover-bore-cleaning-solvent-4-oz-liquid

Ask people that used to shoot a lot of lead in revolvers in PPC/Ipsc/Idpa. Most will tell you the same thing. It's a pain to get out sometimes, depending on how soft the bullet was, how many rounds fired, etc. I've never used the lewis lead remover, but people have said good things about it.

Normally I do a deep clean on the bore when I'm done shooting revolver for the year. Soak several patches in lead solvent and let it sit for a few hours. 50 or so passes with a NEW .38 cal brozne brush. Repeat once or twice until the bore is actually clean.

Used to be I would shoot revolver for about 6-8 months, do the horribly disgusting task of removing what felt like a pound of lead from the bore, and then shoot the plastic gun for about the same amount of time. Rinse and repeat. Personally, I don't like the idea of only shooting one gun. Too easy to get into a rut. But other people disagree.

My current USPSA revolver (627 pro like yours) has a filthy bore. I expect I won't care until around April.

No, I used lead solvent and Lewis lead remover.