Sealed case-mouths...necessary...or dogma?

[Unobtanium]

I have noticed that most duty rounds are NOT sealed at the case neck. NO pistol rounds are, and I noted that:

5.56 TAP loads are not (GMX)
Black Hills 50gr TSX is not
Gold Dot 55 and 64gr is not

I could list more, but these are all "on the list", and considered G2G.

Is it not a big deal? Is a sealed case-neck superflous as neck tension solves the issue? Why does the military persist with the requirement?

[joshs]

In my limited testing, (unsealed rounds accidentally going in the washing machine) unsealed rounds have still detonated after being fully submerged.

[Odin Bravo One]

Why does the military persist with the requirement?

Because the military predicts storage and use of ammunition in conditions not normally associated with the rest of the shooting world. Neck tension doesn't solve the issue as it is subject to change under certain conditions.

[DocGKR]

Bingo!

[Unobtanium]

Bingo!
Is this something that matters to a civilian or LE, or is it something similar to "could get soaked in jet fuel for 48 hours and survive..."?

[Odin Bravo One]

I don't get worked up about it unless it is:

A) Going to be hotter than two rats getting it on in a wool sock behind the dryer vent.
B) Altitude.
C) Submerged.

[Rich]

I like my loads to be sealed at both ends especially if being stored for future .

Back when I started reloading I ask a few about buying primer sealer? They said it wasn't really needed.

So I went and loaded up some 9mm 124 gr ball and set a cartridge in a glass of water. They next day I shot it off.

As a Hunter/trapper I've gotten wet from rain /crossing creeks, falling in and breaking through the ice . No big deal all hunters have had it happen.
Never had a problem with water and ammo that isn't sealed up at both ends .

Still I prefer my SD ammo to be sealed up at both ends.

Now I have had WD40 damage my 222rem 45gr HP ammo. From spraying of my Bolt Action 222rem with WD 40 and loading back up. Condensation, Cold weather / rain was a bitch at the cabin.
I'm well aware of painless test on WD40 and primers . Never the less it happen to me according to Remington and the ammo I sent them back in the 80S.

[Chuck Haggard]

FWIW, Hornady reports Critical Duty being sealed at the primer and case mouth;

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-duty/135-gr-9mm-lugerp

[Unobtanium]

I don't get worked up about it unless it is:

A) Going to be hotter than two rats getting it on in a wool sock behind the dryer vent.
B) Altitude.
C) Submerged.

What do you mean by Altitude? A hike up Pikes Peak, or a HALO jump?

[Unobtanium]

FWIW, Hornady reports Critical Duty being sealed at the primer and case mouth;

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-duty/135-gr-9mm-lugerp

I see that. They cheesed out on their TAP rifle ammo.

[Moonshot]

OK, in a perfect world sealed is better than not sealed. None of my Black Hills .223 (68gr and 75gr)*, my Spier SBGD .38, or my HST 9mm (124gr and 147gr) have sealed case mouths, while only the Gold Dots seem to have sealed primers (blue ring around primer pocket).

Is there any reason to use an after market sealer (or nail polish, as I've heard this will also work) and apply sealer myself? Any reason not to? Can it cause more harm that it prevents? Can it even be done to the case mouth "after the fact"?

I understand that it is not necessary for ammo stored under "normal" conditions, but for long-term storage? This ammo does not get cycled through training - I have training rounds for that.

* Some of my earlier BH .223 (in the all red box) had red primer sealer, while newer BH (in the new red and black box) does not. I called BH and asked them about this and was told that all their ammo was sealed at the primer, but the new sealent was clear. I took this to be BS as other BH bullet weights in .223 were still being released with the "old" red primer sealer, but the 75gr OTMs had nothing.

[Unobtanium]

OK, in a perfect world sealed is better than not sealed. None of my Black Hills .223 (68gr and 75gr)*, my Spier SBGD .38, or my HST 9mm (124gr and 147gr) have sealed case mouths, while only the Gold Dots seem to have sealed primers (blue ring around primer pocket).

Is there any reason to use an after market sealer (or nail polish, as I've heard this will also work) and apply sealer myself? Any reason not to? Can it cause more harm that it prevents? Can it even be done to the case mouth "after the fact"?

I understand that it is not necessary for ammo stored under "normal" conditions, but for long-term storage? This ammo does not get cycled through training - I have training rounds for that.

* Some of my earlier BH .223 (in the all red box) had red primer sealer, while newer BH (in the new red and black box) does not. I called BH and asked them about this and was told that all their ammo was sealed at the primer, but the new sealent was clear. I took this to be BS as other BH bullet weights in .223 were still being released with the "old" red primer sealer, but the 75gr OTMs had nothing.
BH used winchester pre-sealed cases. I don't know what they use, now. I suspect it varies.

[Rich]

OK, in a perfect world sealed is better than not sealed. None of my Black Hills .223 (68gr and 75gr)*, my Spier SBGD .38, or my HST 9mm (124gr and 147gr) have sealed case mouths, while only the Gold Dots seem to have sealed primers (blue ring around primer pocket).

Is there any reason to use an after market sealer (or nail polish, as I've heard this will also work) and apply sealer myself? Any reason not to? Can it cause more harm that it prevents? Can it even be done to the case mouth "after the fact"?

I understand that it is not necessary for ammo stored under "normal" conditions, but for long-term storage? This ammo does not get cycled through training - I have training rounds for that.

* Some of my earlier BH .223 (in the all red box) had red primer sealer, while newer BH (in the new red and black box) does not. I called BH and asked them about this and was told that all their ammo was sealed at the primer, but the new sealent was clear. I took this to be BS as other BH bullet weights in .223 were still being released with the "old" red primer sealer, but the 75gr OTMs had nothing.

One can buy primer sealer. I gave away a bottle of George & Roy blue. Don't know about the Black Lucas ( the black looking tar that's seals the bullet /CM bullet.

Yes one can use nail polish

[Jeep]

Is this something that matters to a civilian or LE, or is it something similar to "could get soaked in jet fuel for 48 hours and survive..."?

LTC John George in his book "Shots Fired in Anger," reported on the difference between US and Japanese ammo on Guadalcanal. Basically, all the US ammo fired. A lot of the Japanese ammo didn't because it wasn't sealed, wasn't packed in metal cans with a rubber seal, etc.

You can soak unsealed ammo in water for a long time and most of it will still work. Some won't, though, and that is the critical thing. By contrast, you can go wading in a river with GI ammo and it will still work essentially all the time, and a belt of .50 cal. covered in snow for days will work as well.

I don't know about GI ammo and salt water; Sean or the Marines here can speak to that, but my guess is that it works fine if it hasn't been submerged long enough for the salt to corrode the metal seriously.

It strikes me that none of this will usually matter to a civilian or LE, but sealing also isn't going to hurt.

[Moonshot]

It strikes me that none of this will usually matter to a civilian or LE, but sealing also isn't going to hurt. Buying it sealed isn't going to hurt, but what about a "do it yourself" approach? Could the primer be killed? Could sealant harm the powder or burn characteristics if it seeps in past the case head? The .mil uses one product for the primer and another for the case head. Will primer sealer or nail polish work on both?

I've got some top end (and somewhat expensive) self-defense ammo. I don't want to risk destroying it in an effort to make it marginally better.

[Jeep]

Buying it sealed isn't going to hurt, but what about a "do it yourself" approach? Could the primer be killed? Could sealant harm the powder or burn characteristics if it seeps in past the case head? The .mil uses one product for the primer and another for the case head. Will primer sealer or nail polish work on both?

I've got some top end (and somewhat expensive) self-defense ammo. I don't want to risk destroying it in an effort to make it marginally better.

I wouldn't try sealing already manufactured unsealed ammunition precisely because something could go wrong with the process.

[Hambo]

In my limited testing, (unsealed rounds accidentally going in the washing machine) unsealed rounds have still detonated after being fully submerged.

I test them that way too. My wife returns any ammo that went through the washer (and sometimes the dryer). FWIW it has all fired.

I've also been shooting some of my reloaded rifle and pistol ammo from '92-'94 and it has all been good go. None of it is sealed and it was stored under normal conditions, mas o menos.

Sealed or not, if I dunked ammo in the swamp I'd make sure it was for practice only after that. I've got plenty of good stuff for hunting or carry.

[Odin Bravo One]

By Altitude, I mean a hike up Pike's Peak, especially if it was stored at sea level, or similar........the change in pressure and temperatures is enough, along with condensation to create a concern of moisture. HALO and HAHO jumps also require the sealed necks.

The only time I have ever really had issues, however, is coming from a High Altitude jump, and going into a 1 ATA depth dive in sea water.........unsealed ammo failed 100% when attempted to be shot at sea level following this event.

All of that said, I do not seal my hand loads, with the exception of my precision .300 BLK loads.

[Unobtanium]

By Altitude, I mean a hike up Pike's Peak, especially if it was stored at sea level, or similar........the change in pressure and temperatures is enough, along with condensation to create a concern of moisture. HALO and HAHO jumps also require the sealed necks.

The only time I have ever really had issues, however, is coming from a High Altitude jump, and going into a 1 ATA depth dive in sea water.........unsealed ammo failed 100% when attempted to be shot at sea level following this event.

All of that said, I do not seal my hand loads, with the exception of my precision .300 BLK loads.

Thanks! Unique data-points!

[LSP972]

Buying it sealed isn't going to hurt, but what about a "do it yourself" approach?.

Doable; but if you do the bullets too (assuming you're reloading them), the tedium factor is off the chart. Doing loaded factory ammo on both ends isn't quite so bad.

I do it for my "shower gun" ammunition. The primers are a no-brainer; invert the cartridges in a loading block, put a dollop of lacquer-based nail polish over each primer, let it sit for a few seconds, then wipe the excess clear. The bullet end takes a bit more time, because you don't want any excess lacquer around the case mouth/bullet juncture. Serious tedium here, folks... but if you've got an 8 YOA granddaughter who loves to 'help granddad load burrets', and who has abnormally good dexterity for her age... you're golden.

I've been doing this for years now, with various factory .38 and .357 offerings. I change 'em out every six months, like my carry ammunition, and shoot them in practice. No duds so far. Whether the "sealing" process contributes to that, I couldn't say for sure.

But it makes me feel better...

FWIW, a bloody looonnnggg time ago I did an article on this very topic for Combat Handguns magazine. Virginia Commander was the editor (and still a hammer; that's "attractive", for you Yankees), if that tells you how long ago it was. Basically, I took some .38 rounds, sealed them using the technique described above, then put them in various mediums in baby food jars. I think water, Break-Free, and WD-40 were my "test mediums". I left them to soak for a week, I think it was.

All of the rounds exposed to water fired. Some of the rounds exposed to Break-Free fired. None of the round exposed to WD-40 fired. But that latter was not news, because the dangers of WD-40 around ammunition were well-known by then. Well, by some, anyway...

.

[DBR]

IIRC on military ammo the bullet is sealed with "asphaltum varnish". The inside of the case neck is coated with the varnish and allowed to partially dry before the bullet is seated. I found it available here: http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Asphaltum-Varnish/118003.

This method is much faster for hand loads and works better than trying to seal the case mouth after the bullet is seated. IME unsealed ammo can "breath" with changes in barometric pressure and/or altitude.

[Rich]

Will primer sealer or nail polish work on both?



Again one can buy primer sealer on the internet . like George & Roys or use nail polish. The Black Lucas seals the bullet at the case mouth! I Don't know where to buy it?

Putting primmer sealant on the primer isn't going to hurt anything. BTW I wouldn't pull a bullet just to add Black Lucas.


Some of my main loads I use for SD in my LMT Defender 2000 Carbine aren't sealed at both ends. Black Hills 5.56mm TSX 50gr., Black Hills Blue box 75gr/77gr .
The only one load that I have that is sealed at both ends is the lot of MK262 I have. Unless I count M193/M855/SS109 and I don't. That's range only ammo.

I use Remington GSB9MMD in my P30S and its is sealed at both ends. Unlike certain lots of Win Ranger and Federal HST.


Back in the 90`s I shot up all my grandfathers 12GA ammo . back then Hull was made of PAPER not plastic.
I shot it all up using the passed down to me Ithaca M37 . Ammo was stored in a sock drawer.

If you store it dry it should out last you.

BTW I also don't mind if my 5.56/223rem ammo bullet lacks a cannalure.
At the range I would check for set back often. Fired 2 cases of Black Hills Blue box 77grw/cnl.

[Rich]

IIRC on military ammo the bullet is sealed with "asphaltum varnish". The inside of the case neck is coated with the varnish and allowed to partially dry before the bullet is seated. I found it available here: http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Asphaltum-Varnish/118003.

This method is much faster for hand loads and works better than trying to seal the case mouth after the bullet is seated. IME unsealed ammo can "breath" with changes in barometric pressure and/or altitude.


For reloading one could use Black Lucas to seal the bullet. That's what Winchester is using for there ranger line.

Or the asphaltum varnish as you say.

Buy factory loaded ammo and pulling the bullet to add the sealant doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

[167]

Remington Golden Saber is sealed at both ends too.

[Unobtanium]

Kindof frustrating, the only ammo (5.56) I have found that is sealed at both ends is MK318,M855, M193, X135 (hard to get somtimes), XM556FBIT3 and RA556B.

XM556FBIT3 and RA556B are softpoints, and Dr Roberts and Sean M have both said that they have caused issues, IIRC, with feeding.

That leaves me with X135 and MK318 can be...a bit penetrative...for lack of a better word, although over-penetration isn't my biggest fear, really.

[Odin Bravo One]

I'll toss this out there just for consideration........obviously each person has their own perspective of what they need.

You are probably over-thinking this issue.

My SHTF ammo is a grab bag of green tip and 75-77 grain OTM. No shit, it's just a gunfight. The type of ammo being used is not the deciding factor.

[Unobtanium]

I'll toss this out there just for consideration........obviously each person has their own perspective of what they need.

You are probably over-thinking this issue.

My SHTF ammo is a grab bag of green tip and 75-77 grain OTM. No shit, it's just a gunfight. The type of ammo being used is not the deciding factor.

I hear rumor you've been in a few...

No arguments from me. My angle is more hunting than gunfight though, and why stock up on more than 1 round/deal with multiple zero's. I'd like a "do all".

[Odin Bravo One]

Fair enough...........

I just don't see it as THAT big of an issue in most circumstances. Given mil ammo is often used, shipped, and stored at extremes, it makes sense. For practical purposes in most scenarios I can envision, it isn't a deal breaker.

[Unobtanium]

Fair enough...........

I just don't see it as THAT big of an issue in most circumstances. Given mil ammo is often used, shipped, and stored at extremes, it makes sense. For practical purposes in most scenarios I can envision, it isn't a deal breaker.

Understood. I have heard of several people taking deer very effectively with MK318 MOD 0 SOST, and the gel shots I have seen of it indicate that it should do decent on a deer. It has proven accurate for me, and I am tempted to try it. This is what it did to a piece of pork I shot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFVtZsSCSdI
Every test I have seen shows nasty amounts of frags from 2-12 inches depth, and the copper wad-cutter of a base keeps on going.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'll toss this out there just for consideration........obviously each person has their own perspective of what they need.

You are probably over-thinking this issue.

My SHTF ammo is a grab bag of green tip and 75-77 grain OTM. No shit, it's just a gunfight. The type of ammo being used is not the deciding factor.

At my retirement party a few days ago I had occasion to compare notes with some dudes that have been around awhile, are very experienced shooters, and have seen some serious work OCONUS over the past few years. Each of them has seen zero issues with using standard issued ammo, and had no idea what the fuss was by so many people.

One, who might pipe in here, told me he has seen at least 20 bad guys shot with 9mm ball, and noted that "none of them were unimpressed with the cartridge".

Pat Rogers advised in his observation that the old NYPD .38 duty load, a standard LSWC, worked pretty good on bad guys, "if you could shoot".

I increasingly note that the most experienced guys worry the least about the type of ammo they have, as long at it's reliable and accurate.

[LSP552]

At my retirement party a few days ago……….

Congratulations Chuck!

[Jeep]

Yes, congratulations! What are you planning to do now?

[Unobtanium]

Yes, congratulations! What are you planning to do now?

I'm not in LE, and I'm only 28, but when I retire from healthcare, I plan on avoiding people as much as I possibly can while still hanging out with my friends. The way LE is now, I seriously have my hat off to anyone who is in it and is still a people person!

[Jim Watson]

I ran an inadvertent uncontrolled experiment on ammunition sealing. My house burned and the fire department got everything wet with very dirty water.
After everything dried out externally, I testfired a magazine of each. No or one misfire, I saved for practice, more and I pulled them down to reclaim bullets and brass.
Real USGI .45 ACP out of the 1960s with asphaltum neck seal held up fine.
US factory loads were very variable, some shot, some didn't.
When pulled down, most of the duds had dry powder but corroded primers.

You know that Sellier & Belot ammo with the pretty red stuff around the primer and case mouth? Awful. I pulled bullets, dumped soggy powder out of about 1/3 of them, cleaned and dried bullets and brass for reuse.

Remember Academy Sports selling 9mm aluminum Blazer for $3.87? Dangerous. The boxes and the full case looked barely wrinkled from damp. A few of the bottom boxes had a white powdery buildup but no pitting. I was kind of ignoring the split cases of the majority that fired at all but then had a BRIGHT flash out the ejection port and picked up an empty with a large hole burned through just ahead of the extractor groove. There was a matching score in the chamber. That polished up well enough to not affect extraction but there is still a divot looking back at me every time I clean the gun. I pulled the rest of that case and a half for the bullets.

Reloads with jacketed bullets were a dead loss, if 1/3 fired it was a lot.
Reloads with cast bullets were a lot better, I still have two large baggies good enough for plinking that I will be working my way though this season.

.22s held up amazingly well. I had a couple of the most exposed boxes ruined but most are fine, I can go a box without a misfire.

[Unobtanium]

Very interesting! Especially the .22. I had left some CCI Stringers outside by accident once (a box of 30 left or so). They were very poorly represented.

[Sensei]

I see that. They cheesed out on their TAP rifle ammo.

Interesting since they seal TAP T2 from what I recall.

[LSP972]

Remember Academy Sports selling 9mm aluminum Blazer for $3.87?

Not only do I remember it, I still have two cases of that stuff; but it was $3.86 here, for some reason. Eighty-three bucks and change per case, OTD. I was buying a case of it per pay period... if I'd only known...

Very disturbing re your report. You think the aluminum case was corroded/weakened at that blow-out point by the water?

.

[Chuck Haggard]

I recall the older Blazer having issues with corrosion, before they got the coating right. I'd guess if the coating was breached, or it's older stuff from before that time, corrosion was exactly the issue.

In my experience the Blazer that we have now is really good training ammo, if it's well stored. We probably ran 4-5 million rounds of the 124gr 9mm through our program back when that ammo was consistently getting our ammo bids.

[LSP972]

We ran a huge amount of the 147gr TMC ball, and the only issues were with the squirt guns; the MP-5's fluted chamber did NOT like the aluminum case.

Never saw any corrosion problems; the stuff was kept in an outdoor magazine with no special dehumidifiers, etc. That magazine was out of direct sunlight, however.

The time frame we're talking here is early-to-mid 90's.

.

[Chuck Haggard]

Our ammo was/is stored in a caged area in a large Morton building type garage at our range. No temp or humidity control. Ammo generally doesn't get to sit more than a year at any one time.