View Full Version : Beretta 92 Armorer Course?
LockedBreech
12-19-2014, 01:38 AM
As I've discussed elsewhere, I am committed to becoming an expert with the Beretta 92 platform. I will put many thousands of rounds downrange and I want to learn the platform as much as possible. That said, my Google searches are always clogged full of dubious-looking junk.
So, my question is simply this: who is considered, currently, to offer the most "legitimate" 92 armorer course? Or armorer courses, in general?
I could swear that BUSA put some on at various locations around the country maybe 8 or 10 years ago. I'm not sure if they still do such or not, but I can ask around. I kind of want to do one as well.
5pins
12-19-2014, 07:02 AM
I don’t see any courses listed past 2013 on their website so I’m not sure what’s going on. IIRC you had to be Mil/Le to take the class.
http://www.berettausa.com/en-us/customer-service/law-enforcement-training/
arcticlightfighter
12-25-2014, 10:10 AM
I tried to host a Beretta 92 series armorer course at my PD this past year but not a single officer enrolled so it had to be cancelled. It is closed to non-LE .gov
David B.
12-25-2014, 10:45 AM
I don't believe Beretta makes the armorers course available to civilians and non-Beretta employees.
God Bless,
David
Someone should convince Ernest Langdon to teach one.
LockedBreech
12-25-2014, 02:08 PM
Someone should convince Ernest Langdon to teach one.
That's the stuff
David B.
12-25-2014, 05:36 PM
Someone should convince Ernest Langdon to teach one.
where do I sign up? :)
God Bless,
David
When I did the Langdon Beretta course, it was like a mini armorer course. He felt the trigger on my SD, frowned and took it apart. Heat treated the trigger bar, reworked the trigger, and put it back together. On my compact, he did the burnish (sp) trick, without even taking it apart. Lots of discussion about the maintenance side of the 92.
He can shoot them, fix them, improve them and teach them!
David B.
12-25-2014, 07:47 PM
He can shoot them, fix them, improve them and teach them!
He certainly is a Beretta guru and overall savant in our beloved area of interest.
God Bless,
David
stinx
12-25-2014, 08:30 PM
I tried hosting an armorers class at my PD about 7 years ago, We did not get a single officer or dept response. The best Beretta smiths I can think of would be Ernest Langdon, Wilson combat or Josh at Allegany armory in Pa, he does a lot of Beretta 92 series work.
ToddG
12-25-2014, 08:37 PM
FWIW, at least back when the Beretta Academy reported to me, the armorer course was LE/mil only and it took five days; and it did not cover the G-series slides. You could probably reduce it two two long serious days of work if you only covered the 90-series pistols, it still takes:
A beater gun per student; smart people don't practice armorer chores on their own guns.
A number of tools per student.
Enough students in one geographical location interested in the class.
IMHO, this is another thing that has come from the Glock world: the idea that you need to know how to detail strip the gun and replace every part in order to keep the gun running the way you want. There are a handful of things you should definitely know how to do with the Beretta beyond basic field stripping (changing the trigger return spring being by far the most useful). But otherwise I doubt the benefit is worth the effort.
If one wanted to do it purely out of love for the gun, I totally get that. But again, that leaves you back to the difficulty of getting enough of those people in one area willing to pay for a class and an instructor who had enough demand that he could afford to buy 20 guns, 20 sets of tools, etc.
I'd imagine if anyone could do it, Ernest could. He'd probably find a dozen or two cheap beater trade-in LE guns and (if he was smart) tell students what tools they needed to bring on their own dime. As long as the class was somewhere in the DC area I'm sure he'd be willing to do the teaching. It's all about whether the numbers make it reasonable for him to dedicate the time.
I can also tell you from personal (though very limited) experience that teaching an armorer class can be a major pain in the butt because not everyone has as much mechanical aptitude as, say, your typical pile of fly feces. Teaching someone with two left thumbs how to install a Beretta sear spring is enough to make many instructors consider ritual suicide.
and it did not cover the G-series slides.
Effin G slides. I broke two punches and bent a third one removing and installing G levers. Never again.
David B.
12-25-2014, 11:10 PM
IMHO, this is another thing that has come from the Glock world: the idea that you need to know how to detail strip the gun and replace every part in order to keep the gun running the way you want. There are a handful of things you should definitely know how to do with the Beretta beyond basic field stripping (changing the trigger return spring being by far the most useful). But otherwise I doubt the benefit is worth the effort.
Detail striping the 92 was necessary for me to keep the gun running the way I want. I don't like paying people (a gunsmith) to do something that I could learn to do myself, i.e., replace any part on the gun.
I install my own sights, replace broken locking blocks, replace dockers with low-profile ones, etc. The only thing I'd use a competent gunsmith for is machine work because I don't have the machines.
If one wanted to do it purely out of love for the gun, I totally get that.
That's why I would do it. I just enjoy Berettas and hopefully I could pickup some nuance about the platform to help me improve its function and maybe my performance with it (or at least make me think it will :)).
The biggest challenge for an armorer's course for me is the time in which it's conducted. Weekends are almost impossible (at least saturday/sabbath is since it's a religious/spiritual observance). However, make it during the week with enough time for planing and I'll start saving and looking for the best airfare.
God Bless,
David
LangdonTactical
12-26-2014, 09:18 AM
I'd imagine if anyone could do it, Ernest could.
So I would be interested in the discussion on doing an class. As Todd says, it would take everyone having a beater gun that they did not mind taking apart several times and making mistakes on, not to mention the tools. I have no issues in teaching the G safety as i have gotten pretty good at taking that safety system apart and putting it back. If I remember correctly, the Beretta factory class included a 90 series Armorers tool kit. I have done that class twice as a student, once when i worked there and once when I was on the team years later.
I could have the conversation with Beretta about using their guns for the class. Maybe even hosting it at the Accokeek factory??? Don't get your hopes up!
Ernest
LSP972
12-26-2014, 09:35 AM
Teaching someone with two left thumbs how to install a Beretta sear spring is enough to make many instructors consider ritual suicide.
I feel your pain. During one recruit class, my predecessor at the FTU went full retard and insisted that we teach EVERY cadet how to detail strip and reassemble- properly- their issue S&W revolver. I BEGGED him to re-consider; nope.
While I never considered seppuku during that ordeal, I damn sure wanted to open HIS guts up a few times… talk about the proverbial monkey and the football…
.
Chuck Haggard
12-26-2014, 09:48 AM
I recall the Beretta class I attended was five days. They covered the 92 series standard guns, spent half a day on the shotgun they were selling at the time (I don't even recall which model it's been so long), and there was an after class bit where the instructor helped a student with his 21 while we looked over his shoulder.
There are a LOT of wee little bits in a Beretta
Matt O
12-26-2014, 09:52 AM
So I would be interested in the discussion on doing an class. As Todd says, it would take everyone having a beater gun that they did not mind taking apart several times and making mistakes on, not to mention the tools. I have no issues in teaching the G safety as i have gotten pretty good at taking that safety system apart and putting it back. If I remember correctly, the Beretta factory class included a 90 series Armorers tool kit. I have done that class twice as a student, once when i worked there and once when I was on the team years later.
I could have the conversation with Beretta about using their guns for the class. Maybe even hosting it at the Accokeek factory??? Don't get your hopes up!
Ernest
I would be very interested in this. Sourcing a beater gun might be difficult if Beretta wouldn't have any loaners, but perhaps we'll get lucky and there will be another large police trade-in sale soon. :D
JSGlock34
12-26-2014, 10:43 AM
I would be very interested in this. Sourcing a beater gun might be difficult if Beretta wouldn't have any loaners, but perhaps we'll get lucky and there will be another large police trade-in sale soon. :D
I'd be interested in a class too. As for police trade-in beater guns, there are still these 92S pistols (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/beretta-92s-italian-police-trade-in-s-9mm.html) floating around...still, if Beretta could provide...
David B.
12-26-2014, 10:56 AM
I could have the conversation with Beretta about using their guns for the class. Maybe even hosting it at the Accokeek factory??? Don't get your hopes up!
Ernest
Too late! :)
If this comes to fruition, please don't schedule the class on the weekend. Thanks for the consideration.
God Bless,
David
GJM told me that he saw Ernest actually heat up a trigger bar and hammer it, forging a shape or something.
Where do I sign up for this? 'Cause after 30 min working with a Beretta slide, be it sights, levers or what have you, I really want to hammer the $#@& out of it.
ST911
12-26-2014, 02:57 PM
I feel your pain. During one recruit class, my predecessor at the FTU went full retard and insisted that we teach EVERY cadet how to detail strip and reassemble- properly- their issue S&W revolver. I BEGGED him to re-consider; nope.
Holy. Cow.
I feel your pain. During one recruit class, my predecessor at the FTU went full retard and insisted that we teach EVERY cadet how to detail strip and reassemble- properly- their issue S&W revolver. I BEGGED him to re-consider; nope.
While I never considered seppuku during that ordeal, I damn sure wanted to open HIS guts up a few times… talk about the proverbial monkey and the football…
.
I take it that you refrained from telling him that real men detail-strip their S&W .357's left-handed and blindfolded out of concern that he would have thought that was a good idea also?
GJM told me that he saw Ernest actually heat up a trigger bar and hammer it, forging a shape or something.
Where do I sign up for this? 'Cause after 30 min working with a Beretta slide, be it sights, levers or what have you, I really want to hammer the $#@& out of it.
You got that half right. He definitely heat treated it, but the only hammering I recall was him on the plate rack.
You've just destroyed a very potent image in my head: Ernest forging a perfect trigger bar out of commercially available mediocrity. Thanks, bro.
[QUOTE=YVK;281008]GJM told me that he saw Ernest actually heat up a trigger bar and hammer it, forging a shape or something.
Where do I sign up for this? 'Cause after 30 min working with a Beretta slide, be it sights, levers or what have you, I really want to hammer the $#@& out of it
If the class is anything like this I'm in !
http://youtu.be/GVx4LafsvSU
Hambo
12-27-2014, 08:37 AM
GJM told me that he saw Ernest actually heat up a trigger bar and hammer it, forging a shape or something.
Where do I sign up for this? 'Cause after 30 min working with a Beretta slide, be it sights, levers or what have you, I really want to hammer the $#@& out of it.
I recently had a firing pin break, so I had to learn how to take everything out of the slide. I found one reasonably useful video on Youtube and the first time it was a PITA, but now that I've done it a few times it's really not that hard.
Still, schedule permitting I'd be in on a Langdon class.
LSP972
12-27-2014, 01:17 PM
Holy. Cow.
Yeah. I was getting dangerously homicidal before it was over.
.
LSP972
12-27-2014, 01:21 PM
I take it that you refrained from telling him that real men detail-strip their S&W .357's left-handed and blindfolded out of concern that he would have thought that was a good idea also?
Actually, he was a very knowledgeable and practical guy. He designed our semi-auto program, along with the concurrent semi-annual re-training program on those guns, and that was an extremely successful operation that made the department-wide transition, some 7-8 years later, rather seamless.
He just went off the deep end on that class; I never did figure out why.
.
So I would be interested in the discussion on doing an class. As Todd says, it would take everyone having a beater gun that they did not mind taking apart several times and making mistakes on, not to mention the tools. I have no issues in teaching the G safety as i have gotten pretty good at taking that safety system apart and putting it back. If I remember correctly, the Beretta factory class included a 90 series Armorers tool kit. I have done that class twice as a student, once when i worked there and once when I was on the team years later.
I could have the conversation with Beretta about using their guns for the class. Maybe even hosting it at the Accokeek factory??? Don't get your hopes up!
Ernest
Sorry to keep digging some of these older threads but I was searching the forums and could not help but resurrect this one since we are in the golden age of Beretta 92 with the release of your LTT.
Just wanted to bring the discussion to the forefront. Even if a class is not a possibility. I would happily pay money for a high quality download video of Ernest walking through the important areas of consideration on a 92 and how to address them. I think it would be a great idea and again would be happy to buy a download of something of that nature.
LockedBreech
08-14-2018, 10:47 PM
Hey, my thread from back when I was a P-F newbie! Look how committed I was to the 92. 2014 LB would be flipping over in his grave about how much I've gravitated to strikers. At least I still love the 92.
And would still be totally interested in a class like this.
Dagga Boy
08-14-2018, 11:01 PM
Ernest and I have talked about HiTS hosting a two day 92 class. One day running the guns and one working on them. We have a perfect facility for it along with a Beretta Gallery in the area. DALLAS is 3 hours from most folks. I hope we can book this in 2019.
Shipwreck
08-14-2018, 11:03 PM
Ernest and I have talked about HiTS hosting a two day 92 class. One day running the guns and one working on them. We have a perfect facility for it along with a Beretta Gallery in the area. DALLAS is 3 hours from most folks. I hope we can book this in 2019.
That mighy be something I would go to. It is 3 hours from me....
LockedBreech
08-14-2018, 11:27 PM
Ernest and I have talked about HiTS hosting a two day 92 class. One day running the guns and one working on them. We have a perfect facility for it along with a Beretta Gallery in the area. DALLAS is 3 hours from most folks. I hope we can book this in 2019.
I also know a cute girl who lives there and I love Mexican food, so, you know, multitasking.
Jokes aside that sounds awesome.
LangdonTactical
08-15-2018, 03:28 PM
Sorry to keep digging some of these older threads but I was searching the forums and could not help but resurrect this one since we are in the golden age of Beretta 92 with the release of your LTT.
Just wanted to bring the discussion to the forefront. Even if a class is not a possibility. I would happily pay money for a high-quality download video of Ernest walking through the important areas of consideration on a 92 and how to address them. I think it would be a great idea and again would be happy to buy a download of something of that nature.
I have had the discussion with several people over the years. Beretta has the kits and the guns, but they are reserved for LE only classes.
I just did a class in California for an LE agency. One day Armorer's school and one day TDA shooting skills. It was very well received and I enjoyed doing the class.
To really do it correctly, I would need to provide tools to the student (I simply could not rely on everyone bringing the right stuff). The smart way to do that is the student gets to keep the tools, but that would drive up the cost of the class. Also, everyone would need a gun that they were willing to take apart and possibly scratch up.
It could be done, but it would be an expensive class I think because of the tools.
The video idea is a good one. I just need to clone myself so I can get more done.
Ernest and I have talked about HiTS hosting a two day 92 class. One day running the guns and one working on them. We have a perfect facility for it along with a Beretta Gallery in the area. DALLAS is 3 hours from most folks. I hope we can book this in 2019.
Now that'd be interesting.
I have had the discussion with several people over the years. Beretta has the kits and the guns, but they are reserved for LE only classes.
I just did a class in California for an LE agency. One day Armorer's school and one day TDA shooting skills. It was very well received and I enjoyed doing the class.
To really do it correctly, I would need to provide tools to the student (I simply could not rely on everyone bringing the right stuff). The smart way to do that is the student gets to keep the tools, but that would drive up the cost of the class. Also, everyone would need a gun that they were willing to take apart and possibly scratch up.
It could be done, but it would be an expensive class I think because of the tools.
The video idea is a good one. I just need to clone myself so I can get more done.
Cloning is good! Seriously, your video on how to strip and put back together a 92 is terrific--it got my courage up about reinstalling the sear and I found that it wasn't too difficult after all. You have a gift for these things and it is generally a good idea to go with one's gifts.
I wonder if a group buy of LE trade in pistols could be arranged so the class could all get into a beater pistol somewhat cheap, and refurb it over the course of the class, and then shoot it day 2 (or 3?). Kinda like what Jim Fuller does with his AK builder classes.
Dagga Boy
08-15-2018, 09:16 PM
I have had the discussion with several people over the years. Beretta has the kits and the guns, but they are reserved for LE only classes.
I just did a class in California for an LE agency. One day Armorer's school and one day TDA shooting skills. It was very well received and I enjoyed doing the class.
To really do it correctly, I would need to provide tools to the student (I simply could not rely on everyone bringing the right stuff). The smart way to do that is the student gets to keep the tools, but that would drive up the cost of the class. Also, everyone would need a gun that they were willing to take apart and possibly scratch up.
It could be done, but it would be an expensive class I think because of the tools.
The video idea is a good one. I just need to clone myself so I can get more done.
I think you would be surprised. Vickers fills his 1911 classes and this would be far less money.
LangdonTactical
08-16-2018, 09:02 AM
I wonder if a group buy of LE trade in pistols could be arranged so the class could all get into a beater pistol somewhat cheap, and refurb it over the course of the class, and then shoot it day 2 (or 3?). Kinda like what Jim Fuller does with his AK builder classes.
That sounds great, it would be the FFL transfer issue. Everyone would have to come with their own gun, or we would have to ship the guns to you after.
We would need to put some thought into the logistics of this one.
But, it would let people tweak the LE trade-in gun. Say, add the G conversion kit, new springs, and firing pin, extended mag button, grips, etc.
Interesting!
Dagga Boy
08-16-2018, 09:14 AM
That sounds great, it would be the FFL transfer issue. Everyone would have to come with their own gun, or we would have to ship the guns to you after.
We would need to put some thought into the logistics of this one.
But, it would let people tweak the LE trade-in gun. Say, add the G conversion kit, new springs, and firing pin, extended mag button, grips, etc.
Interesting!
We’ll talk......I have an idea.
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