Boberg Arms XR-9

[TGS]

Now that the first production batch is shipping/has shipped, it will be interesting to see how this little monster works out. Does anyone here plan on buying one?

I don't think the gain in velocity is a huge reason to go buy one.......we all know that velocity/energy is not a great measurement of incapacitation ability in handguns. And I know that 90% of the people here cringe when they see a pocket-pistol, but I wanted to start a thread on this little guy to see what everyone has to say about it's mechanism....not the applicability of a pocket-9mm.

Boberg Arm's website for those who haven't seen this:
http://www.bobergarms.com/

[JDM]

It looks like a fantastic piece of engineering, from what I gathered on the website.

A fantastic piece of engineering that I want nothing to do with. Firstly, and enough to keep me away from it-when my finger is in register, it would very likely be at or over the muzzle. No thanks.

[TGS]

Like this?

http://www.bobergarms.com/photo/boberg-xr9s-incorrect-grip?context=latest

[JDM]

No.

It looks-and this is pure speculation on my part, as this is the first exposure to this pistol that I've ever had-like when the shooting hand trigger finger is along the slide, it would be real close to the muzzle.

It is a cool looking pistol however.

ETA: who actually holds a gun like the guy in the picture is?

[jslaker]

ETA: who actually holds a gun like the guy in the picture is?

Lots of casual shooters I know tend to opt for the thumbs-locked, index-on-the-trigger-guard grip.

[JDM]

Lots of casual shooters I know tend to opt for the thumbs-locked, index-on-the-trigger-guard grip.

I could definitely see where that would cause a problem here.

[jslaker]

I could definitely see where that would cause a problem here.

Took me a minute, but demonstrating the technique is Internet super star Nutnfancy:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVjHNSXNLXQ

Skip to about 2:45 to avoid windbaggery.

[JDM]

Took me a minute, but demonstrating the technique is Internet super star Nutnfancy:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVjHNSXNLXQ

Skip to about 2:45 to avoid windbaggery.

I like his stroke face.


Also, he should be banned...from everything.

[Tamara]

Ah, the Boberg XR9:

Because when I'm rolling around on the ground with some 250-lb felon atop me, trying to drag me into the van with no windows, and I'm trying to crank a round into his ribcage to keep him from beating me unconscious against the asphalt, I often think to myself "Gosh, if only my pocket nine's barrel were a half-inch longer; that'd be another 25fps, easy! Even if we have to replace the simple and proven push-feed design with a bunch of levers and lifters and stuff, it would totally be worth it."

/sarcasm

From all I can tell, the guns are well-made and reliable (my buddy Oleg is tight with Arne and has gotten to shoot several of them), but the very mindset behind the design is completely frickin' alien to me.

[LittleLebowski]

The Walther PPS seems so much better......

[jetfire]

Someday, Glock will stop deleting all my emails about making a 9mm version of the G36, then all this nonsense about tiny 9mms will be solved, because there will be a single-stack Glock 9mm.

[LittleLebowski]

Someday, Glock will stop deleting all my emails about making a 9mm version of the G36, then all this nonsense about tiny 9mms will be solved, because there will be a single-stack Glock 9mm.

Walther PPS..... Seriously.

[jslaker]

but the very mindset behind the design is completely frickin' alien to me.

Personally, I've always viewed it as less about "get an extra few FPS from my pocket nine" and more "get that pocket nine down to a size that obviates the perceived need for pocket .380s like the LCP."

The gun has only a slightly larger footprint than the LCP given that this overlay (http://www.bobergarms.com/photo/boberg-xr9s-9mmp-vs-ruger-lcp?context=album&albumId=2312567%3AAlbum%3A1249) is accurate. I'm firmly in the "give me something G19 sized or better" camp, but the Boberg does at least manage to get a 9mm into a package that's fairly popular right now.

I don't really have any personal need for a pocket gun, but if I did, there'd certainly be an appeal to a 9mm versus a .380 ACP.

If nothing else, I do think it's a neat piece of engineering.

ETA:

Since the PPS was mentioned, here's the overlay for that one:

http://www.bobergarms.com/photo/boberg-xr9s-vs-walther-pps?context=album&albumId=2312567%3AAlbum%3A1249

[LittleLebowski]

The PPS can be given the "25 cent" trigger job ala Glocks. I'll bet money it costs less and though the mags are expensive, you can get the mags in just about whatever length/capacity (single stack) that you want. It boggles my mind how many of those folks looking for a single stack G26 haven't checked out the Walther PPS.

[jslaker]

The PPS can be given the "25 cent" trigger job ala Glocks. I'll bet money it costs less and though the mags are expensive, you can get the mags in just about whatever length/capacity (single stack) that you want. It boggles my mind how many of those folks looking for a single stack G26 haven't checked out the Walther PPS.

I think it's a great gun, and I've been tempted by it on more than one occasion. The two things that stopped me are that A. I couldn't think of a situation where the slightly smaller size would allow me to carry it where I couldn't carry one of the slightly larger guns I already have since I don't feel it's quite small enough to be pocketable and B. uncertainty about it being a true analogue to the slightly larger Walthers since I've really come to believe in platform commonality.

[Tamara]

While the XR-9S is appreciably smaller, the MK/PM9's from Kahr and the Rorbaugh are already eminently pocketable, as is the PPS.

(...and at the price of the Boberg, I don't know that anyone's going to be comparison-shopping it against P3AT's.)

[jetfire]

The PPS can be given the "25 cent" trigger job ala Glocks. I'll bet money it costs less and though the mags are expensive, you can get the mags in just about whatever length/capacity (single stack) that you want. It boggles my mind how many of those folks looking for a single stack G26 haven't checked out the Walther PPS.

My biggest problem with the PPS is that my personal experience with the modern Walther product line hasn't exactly instilled me with confidence in the brand.

[Tamara]

I haven't had any problems with the actual Walther-designed-and-built guns. The Umarex zamak garbage, on the other hand...

Oh, and while I think that people generally get too uptight about MIM, I'll say that I've seen a bunch of broken trigger bars on S&W-built PPKs. That's a long and skinny part that is subjected to a fair amount of load...

[TGS]

While the XR-9S is appreciably smaller, the MK/PM9's from Kahr and the Rorbaugh are already eminently pocketable, as is the PPS.

(...and at the price of the Boberg, I don't know that anyone's going to be comparison-shopping it against P3AT's.)


I don't believe the XR-9s is aimed at the same market as those buying P3at's in the first place. I'm a little confused with that comment since the other options you mentioned, the Rohrbaugh and Kahr's, are also expensive(Kahr a little bit less so, especially with the newer CM9) and they seem to be quite successful anyway.

I believe Arne used the Rohrbaugh as a standard to beat. Most importantly, excessive parts wear. So for the same price as a Rohrbaugh you get a pistol that has less recoil and supposedly a much longer lasting weapon.

It seems like a lot of the anti-pocket 9 criticisms I've heard in the past revolve around the fact they aren't very easily to shoot effectively, which is a great point against them......what does it matter that you've got a 9mm instead of a .32 if you can't shoot it quickly and accurately? It seems like the XR-9s beats out the competition in that area and might bring to the table what a lot of people want.

The biggest criticism I have with it is remedial actions. I can only imagine how catastrophic it would be to have something get jammed up in this weapon. Like I said, I'm imagining. I'm wondering if there's more ways for it to jam up and if it's easily cleared or not.

Also, I would again politely ask that we steer clear of the whole "pocket 9's are useless just take a real gun and learn how to conceal it properly" arguement. I hope I had expressed that in the OP as I asked about the Boberg to learn about it's mechanism and whether the SME's and peanut gallery feel it is a feasible option for a self-defense pistol. There's plenty of threads already about why pocket guns suck and we don't need to rehash it again, again, and again.......especially since almost everyone here is on the same side of the fence in the first place, knowing that with due diligence it's just as easy to conceal an effective service-sized handgun and how it's an infinitely better option.

[Tamara]

I don't believe the XR-9s is aimed at the same market as those buying P3at's in the first place. I'm a little confused with that comment...

Sorry, I was replying to the poster who said "...get that pocket nine down to a size that obviates the perceived need for pocket .380s like the LCP."

I dunno. I'm trying to get one to write a review (maybe kill two birds with one stone by taking it to a class; Oleg swears they're as easy to shoot as a G26 and he's pretty recoil-averse, and I've been dying to do a writeup on taking a two- or three-day class with some midget gun for a while anyway.)

Seriously, though, it's a philosophical thing with me: If I had to buy a pocket nine, and my choices were between, say, the Kahr PM-9 and this, I'm inclined towards the Kahr simply because the added mechanical complexity of the Boberg is a big turnoff for me.

[TGS]

Sorry, I was replying to the poster who said "...get that pocket nine down to a size that obviates the perceived need for pocket .380s like the LCP."

I dunno. I'm trying to get one to write a review (maybe kill two birds with one stone by taking it to a class; Oleg swears they're as easy to shoot as a G26 and he's pretty recoil-averse, and I've been dying to do a writeup on taking a two- or three-day class with some midget gun for a while anyway.)

Seriously, though, it's a philosophical thing with me: If I had to buy a pocket nine, and my choices were between, say, the Kahr PM-9 and this, I'm inclined towards the Kahr simply because the added mechanical complexity of the Boberg is a big turnoff for me.

Gotcha, thank you.

I feel the same way towards the complexity. That would be great if you could review it.

[jslaker]

(...and at the price of the Boberg, I don't know that anyone's going to be comparison-shopping it against P3AT's.)

I don't particularly disagree. I was speaking more in terms of looking at what's available to fill that particular size class of gun since there are apparently those who feel they need a palm-sized weapon in order to conceal-carry. From what I saw on Boberg's site, initial pricing is set at $949, which definitely isn't cheap compared to the Keltec and it's ilk, but we're also talking about a market segment where SIG has launched a successful .380 that can price out at north of $600 if you're feeling particularly option-silly.

[ToddG]

I think it's a mistake to judge the gun's price based on market segment as a "pocket" pistol. You're either willing to spend a grand on a daily carry gun out you're not. It shouldn't make a difference whether it's a big or little gun. If it's THE gun for you, you either pay for it or choose a lesser option.

I think the XR-9 would be the perfect gun for Speed Kills and Get SOM in September, Tam. :cool:

[JeffJ]

I don't particularly disagree. I was speaking more in terms of looking at what's available to fill that particular size class of gun since there are apparently those who feel they need a palm-sized weapon in order to conceal-carry. From what I saw on Boberg's site, initial pricing is set at $949, which definitely isn't cheap compared to the Keltec and it's ilk, but we're also talking about a market segment where SIG has launched a successful .380 that can price out at north of $600 if you're feeling particularly option-silly.

My very informal observations lead me to put the "pocket pistols" whether they be .380 or 9mm into two catagories of buyers:
1. Informed shooters with at some level of experience and training who have determined that a small auto offers has more in the "plus" column than the "minus" column for their specific needs whether that be deep cover concealment, NPEs, BUG or whatever - for these folks, I don't think cost is the main determing factor (it's always a factor at some point) - so if a grand fills thier needs better then they'll spend it, in the world of serious pistol shooting $1000 is really not that big of a deal

2. Folks that go and get a CHL or CCW or whatever, due to a story on the news, or their signifigant other, or all their buddies are doing it, or some other reason. These folks don't really want to deal with carrying a gun, only plan on doing so when they think they're going to need it (Discussion of this mindset would need it's own thread if not it's own forum) - for them, the idea of concealing even a Glock 19 is unthinkable and spending more than the minimum doesn't make any sense at all. "My LCP fits right in my pocket and goes bang when I pull the trigger, just like your Glock 19":rolleyes: These folks most likely aren't going to buy a real holster, much less a $1000 pistol

That's going a long way to say that while they may all be pocket pistols, they aren't all really competing for the same market share - depending on how something like this does with some legitamate field testing it might really fit the bill for some people and the price probably isn't too prohibitive if that's what you've decided is the best fit for you.

[Tamara]

I think it's a mistake to judge the gun's price based on market segment as a "pocket" pistol. You're either willing to spend a grand on a daily carry gun out you're not. It shouldn't make a difference whether it's a big or little gun. If it's THE gun for you, you either pay for it or choose a lesser option.

Oh, sure, and there definitely is such a thing as an "upmarket pocket pistol". Remember the prices Seecamps were fetching in the early/mid-'90s, before Larry got all set up with CNC hardware?

And Rohrbaughs and, to a lesser extent, Kahrs still fill that niche today. Rohrbaughs are going for, what? Eight bills, street?

[jslaker]

My very informal observations lead me to put the "pocket pistols" whether they be .380 or 9mm into two catagories of buyers:
1. Informed shooters with at some level of experience and training who have determined that a small auto offers has more in the "plus" column than the "minus" column for their specific needs whether that be deep cover concealment, NPEs, BUG or whatever - for these folks, I don't think cost is the main determing factor (it's always a factor at some point) - so if a grand fills thier needs better then they'll spend it, in the world of serious pistol shooting $1000 is really not that big of a deal

2. Folks that go and get a CHL or CCW or whatever, due to a story on the news, or their signifigant other, or all their buddies are doing it, or some other reason. These folks don't really want to deal with carrying a gun, only plan on doing so when they think they're going to need it (Discussion of this mindset would need it's own thread if not it's own forum) - for them, the idea of concealing even a Glock 19 is unthinkable and spending more than the minimum doesn't make any sense at all. "My LCP fits right in my pocket and goes bang when I pull the trigger, just like your Glock 19":rolleyes: These folks most likely aren't going to buy a real holster, much less a $1000 pistol

That's going a long way to say that while they may all be pocket pistols, they aren't all really competing for the same market share - depending on how something like this does with some legitamate field testing it might really fit the bill for some people and the price probably isn't too prohibitive if that's what you've decided is the best fit for you.

I'd add a third category -- people that like the think of themselves as "gun guys" and want to be armed, but aren't willing to put any real effort into it. The gentleman in the video linked upthread is one of them, and, if you have the patience of a saint, you can find a multipart, 30+ minute series of videos where he expounds on how traditional compact handguns are just too big to be carried by all but a few. I don't see that group spending $1000 on a gun, either.

But that first category? I can definitely see them being swayed by a 9mm if they can get it in a form factor largely dominated by .380s so far. I guess that's what I was getting at in the first place here.

[JeffJ]

It may be unfair, but I throw those guys into catagory 2 as well

[JodyH]

I have no interest in the Boberg.
It has zero practical advantage over the identically sized Kahr PM9.
The additional complexity of the design far outweighs the benefit of a 0.35" longer barrel and 1 extra round.

[Tamara]

I have no interest in the Boberg.
It has zero practical advantage over the identically sized Kahr PM9.
The additional complexity of the design far outweighs the benefit of a 0.35" longer barrel and 1 extra round.

Holla back!

[JAD]

PM9 fan here. I don't carry it if I can carry something bigger, but it lets me carry in single-tshirt mode, and sometimes in the summer that's nice. I don't pocket it; I already carry two cell phones, and my pockets aren't that big to begin with. I'd kind of like to mess with CDAIWB as a means of carrying it as a second pistol, if CDAIWB can be done without covering a major blood vessel. That might need a separate thread.

An no, I don't see any advantage in this contraption (or the Rohrbaugh) over my Kahr.

[TGS]

Looks like the XR9s is in the hands of customers now. I'd be interested to see it go through some heavy shooting.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I am happy about these for the sole reason that they effectively circumvent barrel-length laws designed to keep small, concealable firearms out of the hands of the legal gun-buying public.

The XR-9 has a barrel length long enough to get it in to Canada, I believe. We have laws which made 4" barrels illegal about fifteen years ago.

So if these run, I would consider buying one as a fuck-you to the people who brought in those laws.

On the other hand, the P7 is also legal here, and I KNOW they run.

[TGS]

I am happy about these for the sole reason that they effectively circumvent barrel-length laws designed to keep small, concealable firearms out of the hands of the legal gun-buying public.

The XR-9 has a barrel length long enough to get it in to Canada, I believe. We have laws which made 4" barrels illegal about fifteen years ago.

So if these run, I would consider buying one as a fuck-you to the people who brought in those laws.

On the other hand, the P7 is also legal here, and I KNOW they run.

The think the fullsize XR9 has a barrel length long enough for canada. The XR9-S(shorty) which is now being produced doesn't, and he's made a version called the XR9-sc(shorty canadian). I don't see the point.....He should just sell the fullsize XR9 to canada(if he gets to that point) since the SC just looks dumb with the shorty slide/frame and extended barrel.

They're going for $950, and I get the impression that the wait list is pretty long. So it might not be a one-hit wonder, we'll see...

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I believe that is correct...the XR-9s looks to me to have a barrel somewhere around the 3.3" range.

The planned XR9 should be legal, if they get that far.

[Fly320s]

Thread zombie!

So, I got to shoot the XR9S at Vickers class last month. It is a cool little gun, but like Tamara and others said, I don't see how it is better than all the other pocket autos.

If you haven't seen the video of how the gun works, go check it out. The cartridge is pulled backwards out of the magazine by the rearward movement of the slide and then shoved into the chamber, controlled feed style. Kinda cool.

One small, tiny, totally unimportant issue came up. The gun will unseat the bullet of lightly crimped cartridges and spill all of that useless gunpowder into the action. Other than that, it is a neat gun.

Yes, your trigger finger will easily reach the muzzle. That may be a self-correcting problem. It shouldn't take more than a box or two of ammo.


http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i151/Fly320s/Snapbucket/B1747F63.jpg

[Fly320s]

The correctly loaded magazine.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i151/Fly320s/Snapbucket/1F766626-1.jpg

[Fly320s]

An obviously inferior 9mm cartridge. Luckily, all that gunpowder was removed by the pistol.

It made a mess of the gun and it needed to be field-stripped and cleaned to get it back in service. Type 6 malfunction! FWIW, Boberg is aware of the issue and the full-size 9mm may not have the same problem.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i151/Fly320s/Snapbucket/91DC8B6E-1.jpg

[SouthNarc]

The Walther PPS seems so much better......

When did you become a fellow PPS nuthugger?

[LittleLebowski]

When did you become a fellow PPS nuthugger?

Since they first came out, what two or three years ago? I stupidly sold it but would like another. However, I am po'. So po'.

Mine cleaned up and ran well. You can do a trigger job ala the "25 cent Glock trigger job."

Where are you carrying yours?

[Slavex]

Got a chance to play with an XR9-L tonight. Beautifully machined, absolutely gorgeous internals and an amazingly easy trigger. Being in Canada we can't get the standard XR9 unless it has a longer barrel, but we can get the L model. I shot 3 mags out of the gun for a total of 21 rounds. 14 S&B and 7 of my 147gr reloads. I was impressed with the felt recoil, it's a bit torqy (really have no idea how I should spell that) but returns to target well. The trigger as I mentioned before, was amazing. About 7-8lbs and really smooth. Didn't have any issues with bullets being pulled from the case as some have, and had no feed problems at all. However around round 160 something (Mike M will have a the proper numbers) the hammer stopped working. Shaking the gun you could hear something moving inside the grip. Mike, being a lot smarter than me, took the grips off and found that the main spring had come off the small pin that holds it in place at the bottom of the grip. This happened numerous times after that and he finally figured the small tapered head on the pin needed to be a bit bigger to keep it in place in the hole. He'll be emailing Boberg about it in the morning. For an $1800 (CDN money) gun, that's a bit disappointing to say the least, but I expect it will be an easy fix. It's smaller than my G19 and really quite easy to shoot. For someone with small hands I think it would be a great gun. It's also quite accurate, tonight was Steel night so we didn't have any paper out, but holding the sight on the top left corner of the big rectangular plate resulted in 7 rounds in that corner at 15 yds with .30 splits. It fit nicely in my pocket, although I really have no idea how it would be as a pocket gun. Shooting it on Accelerator I managed a 4 second run with it, nothing special, but I expected it to be much slower. Were it half the price I'd probably buy one, if the spring problem is an easy fix that is.

[Rich]

I have no interest in the Boberg.
It has zero practical advantage over the identically sized Kahr PM9.
The additional complexity of the design far outweighs the benefit of a 0.35" longer barrel and 1 extra round.

I agree fully!

[Tamara]

Didn't have any issues with bullets being pulled from the case as some have...

If I had paid any attention to the user manual, I wouldn't have had that problem, either. :o

I will note that the XR-9S was remarkably soft-shooting for its size, especially when fired back-to-back with my friend's Rohrbaugh, which was painful and flinch-inducing with +P ammo. The Boberg is maybe the only gun in its class that I'd cheerfully run a couple hundred rounds through at a sitting.

[Slavex]

I actually enjoyed shooting it. The trigger is really nice, and it is a very accurate gun. If they can get the spring thing sorted out, we are going to run a 2000 round test on it, because as it stands 160 rounds before the first breakage is a bit lame. lol. Just for the kittens and giggles of it I'd run one in a match, if I could get 10 round mags for it, or even 8 rounders. I just think it's cool to see someone thinking outside the box on the design of a gun. A full size one might never be marketable, or maybe it would. Maybe the tech could also be applied to a rifle or carbine?

[Tamara]

I just think it's cool to see someone thinking outside the box on the design of a gun. A full size one might never be marketable, or maybe it would. Maybe the tech could also be applied to a rifle or carbine?

Well, in very general terms, it's the feed system of an 1898 pistol (http://www.forgottenweapons.com/early-automatic-pistols/gabbett-fairfax-mars/) combined with the locking mechanism of a 1907 pistol (http://www.forgottenweapons.com/early-automatic-pistols/roth-steyr-1907/).

After playing with my T&E example, I was of the opinion that it's a very slick piece, but the setup makes for a one-trick pony. Because the feed mechanism requires a full cycle of the action from the closed position to function, a last-round hold-open is not possible. I'll give up fast slidelock reloads in a pocket pistol in exchange for enough barrel length for 9mm rounds to function properly, but in a belt-size weapon? Would you want to slingshot the slide on all the reloads just to get another 3/4" of bbl length in the same holster? Especially if it made the gun go down hard with a stage-ending malf if you used insufficiently-crimped ammo?

[ToddG]

Well, in very general terms, it's the feed system of an 1898 pistol (http://www.forgottenweapons.com/early-automatic-pistols/gabbett-fairfax-mars/) combined with the locking mechanism of a 1907 pistol (http://www.forgottenweapons.com/early-automatic-pistols/roth-steyr-1907/).


If you and Ken Hackathorn were ever in the same room at the same time, I fear the universe would collapse into a hyperdense historical firearms knowledge singularity.

Admittedly, this is coming from a guy who didn't discover 1911s until a hundred and one years later...

[JAD]

Admittedly, this is coming from a guy who didn't discover 1911s until a hundred and one years later...

That's ok, Todd; He believed in you.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/06/a9anyvez.jpg

[Slavex]

I know I wouldn't want to give up slide lock on empty, but I know that people like to buy stuff just for the cool factor.

And yeah, Tam's firearms knowledge is scary

[Tamara]

I know I wouldn't want to give up slide lock on empty, but I know that people like to buy stuff just for the cool factor.

That's Mateba's entire business plan. :D

[1slow]

Chiappa also.
However a AOW 3 barrel shotgun with 8" barrels would be fun. Sort of a hand held claymore.

[Drang]

That's ok, Todd; He believed in you.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/06/a9anyvez.jpg

This board really needs a "Likes this post" function!