Is the M&P 9 "fixed"?

[j.d.allen]

Just purchased a new M&P 9 FS, and had read this:

most CONUS urban LE agencies would be better served by issuing a quality 9 mm handgun (Glock 17/19, S&W M&P9, or HK VP9/P30)

and this:

Some older M&P9's exhibit accuracy issues at ranges beyond 15 yds; M&P9's made after July 2012 seem to shoot as accurately as a typical 3rd gen 9 mm Glock.

Then I started reading some of the threads on the aqccuracy issues and it sounds like they may not have resolved the problem.

Should I expect to have accuracy problems out of my new gun? Anybody know if there was ever a definitive fix for this issue? Are the new pistols any better?

[Artemas]

In general I believe that they are getting better. I shoot mine as well as anything else. I have not seen as much talk online about them having issues.

This article may also be of interest to you though it was published in 2012.
http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=159

[JM Campbell]

My recent manufactured 9 fs are 2-2 1/2" guns.

[j.d.allen]

My recent manufactured 9 fs are 2-2 1/2" guns.

Great! Is that at 25 yds?

[JM Campbell]

Yes, 98z28 can confirm that statement as well. They were previously his.

[j.d.allen]

Yes, 98z28 can confirm that statement as well. They were previously his.

Oh I don't doubt you, you didn't specify in your first post so I thought I'd just make sure. Thanks.

[j.d.allen]

Anyone else with any info on this?

[TTS]

Not sure what this is all about...

https://www.facebook.com/Official.Chris.Costa

The past few handgun classes I've taught I've seen a quality issue with Smith an Wesson M&P handguns. This is the 3rd gun in 9mm I've seen shotgun the target at 7 yards. Barrels are breaking apart at the crown an numerous malfunctions. No mods were done to the weapons an all 3 were newer weapons with less than 500 through them, so keep a watchful eye.
Ammo was a combination of Fed, CCI, and PMC.

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10424346_879192825445957_7143125542661912913_n.jpg ?oh=8552090b7b7f9ef984f625adb221ab08&oe=55401AE9

[LockedBreech]

^ Holy cow

[TCinVA]

"Fixed", I'd say no.

The M&P line has had some niggling issues from the very beginning that have never been completely resolved. The accuracy issue is a real hit or miss thing. I have purchased 7 M&P pistols over the years and I helped a few others buy M&P's and none of them exhibited these kind of accuracy issues, but I know folks who have bought guns and experienced various accuracy problems...although usually not quite as severe as the one pictured above.

Sometimes when a problematic gun pops up Smith fixes it, sometimes they declare it's within spec and they don't. I would imagine that the gun responsible for the showing above would be replaced or have significant part replacement. A problem that manifests primarily as unacceptably large group sizes at 25 yards maybe not.

As best I can tell you're taking a chance when you buy one...but I don't think you have a significantly higher chance of a bad outcome buying an M&P than you do buying most other handguns on the market. Probably a lower chance of problems than if you bought a .40 caliber Glock, for instance...

[LockedBreech]

Despite the waning popularity of the .40 S&W round, as a fan of it I have noted that complaints tend to center on the M&P9, and to a lesser degree the M&P45. The M&P40 seems good to go.

Though, for what it's worth, I did a bench trial with one of my jurisdiction's troopers the other day and they're switching back to Glock after a relatively short time with the M&P40.

Edit: Just did a little research. This agency went from Gen 3 G22 in 2011. After 3 years with the M&P 40 they're already switching, I believe to start in mid-2015. I had a family member in this agency, and I believe before the Gen 3 G22 they isseud Beretta 96G, then before that 92FS, then before that Smith & Wesson 686. My trooper in court said that he's not sure what the new Glock is going to be, just that it'll be a Gen 4 model, so I'm not sure if they're staying with .40 S&W. If they switch away from .40, it'll be the first time in 20+ years.

[RJ]

Anyone else with any info on this?

Just to add a 'new shooter without a clue' sample of one perspective, my Nov '13 build M&P FS 9 (sku 209301) seems to shoot better and better, for me.

I have an Apex DCAEK and a 10 8 FO front with stock blacked out rears. About 2,200 rounds over the past year. Last Saturday the last group of 10 is pictured below on the 1" square at 7 yards, ammo was FM 124 FMj Remans.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/19/1dfa64d193cc3696ad8818451ad6b5ae.jpg

[RJ]

^ Holy cow

Seriously...but what's up with the (what look a lot like) staple marks on the target?

[mizer67]

I've read a number of people who's opinion I'd trust say the newer (9mm FS) guns are good to go and deliver respectable groups. I've read a roughly equal number say the newer 9mms still suck in comparison to other service pistols when it comes to accuracy.

I've owned 5 M&Ps. The 40's shot well in comparison to similar models, the 9mms were horrible. All had parts breakages and issues that Smith has addressed over the years, with varying degrees of success. I still love that platform. It's fast and soft shooting. I wish Smith would get it figured out.

My opinion is it's still gambling if you're buying a 9mm FS or 5" but the odds may have gotten a little better.

[Jaywalker]

Seven yards was never a problem, though. It was nearing 25 yards that things came apart.

[orionz06]

According to a few they were fixed but now it looks like more of the same.

Oh well, they had a chance to make a nice gun.

[JDB]

According to a few they were fixed but now it looks like more of the same.

Oh well, they had a chance to make a nice gun.


I went through a handful of M&P9s between 2008-2012. None of them would consistently shoot sub 4" 5 shot groups at 25 yds with any load. One of them was a true shotgun, barely on paper at 25 gun. The others were 5-8" guns...just not satisfactory compared to their competitors.

All the guns had QC problems to varying degrees (really loose rear sights, bad finish, slide releases that wouldn't drop, failure to extract, dead triggers, etc).

Loved the handling of the M&P, but got tired of dicking around with them. If only HK would make them...

[MGW]

I think it's an odd post for Costa being that he has been an M&P fanboy in the past. This might be an unfair question but I wonder if there is a new sponsor coming?

[orionz06]

I wouldn't read that far into it, he floats from gun to gun. I suspect in this case he just saw an opportunity to make some media. Content is money when you're as popular as he is. That's why bloggers toss out so much crap and video people always toss out crap.

[breakingtime91]

According to a few they were fixed but now it looks like more of the same.

Oh well, they had a chance to make a nice gun.

Ya I was one who often spoke up about how it was getting better. Im switching to a glock 19, mostly because I want a back up to my primary carry. Couldn't afford to gamble on if my next full size would be trustworthy enough or accurate enough.

[j.d.allen]

Damn. Welp, I get mine on 12/26 because of California's wonderful and reasonable ten day waiting period. I guess I'll find out then if I get a good one or not...

[JDB]

Damn. Welp, I get mine on 12/26 because of California's wonderful and reasonable ten day waiting period. I guess I'll find out then if I get a good one or not...

I do think they are getting better, at least design-wise. Don't know about QC on recent guns. Several of the old issues seem to be addressed (bad finishes, dead trigger, not extracting). Don't know about the accuracy on the most recent guns. I still see sights that range from absurdly loose to ridiculously tight while working on the range.

The fact that Apex still isn't endorsing a new barrel gives me pause that the design still has fleas, though it appears the the new fitted Barsto and Wilson barrels are working out.

Really love the ergos and handling of the M&P. A well built one would be a joy. But for now a P30 fits my needs much better....just have to deal with more muzzle flip and longer reset.

[TR675]

Has anyone on the board put some miles on a Wilson barrel?

[stingray]

I've got the 9 and 9c. Both guns shoot real well. One hole, the size of a fifty cent piece is the norm at 7 yards from both guns.

[orionz06]

Has anyone on the board put some miles on a Wilson barrel?

If people are right the Wilson barrel won't fix anything.

[breakingtime91]

I've got the 9 and 9c. Both guns shoot real well. One hole, the size of a fifty cent piece is the norm at 7 yards from both guns.

the problem is at 25 yards or greater, not 7.

[stingray]

the problem is at 25 yards or greater, not 7.

So do my guns shoot accurately, or not?

[davisj]

So do my guns shoot accurately, or not?

You'll need to shoot some groups at 25 yards and let us know.

[stingray]

You'll need to shoot some groups at 25 yards and let us know.

Wouldn't 50 yards be a better indicator that 25 yards?

[orionz06]

No, most guns are on paper at 50.

[stingray]

No, most guns are on paper at 50.

I guess I am very lucky then as my M&P's are very accurate.

[mizer67]

I guess I am very lucky then as my M&P's are very accurate.

If you haven't shot them at distance, I'm not sure how you can make that statement.

Any functioning modern service pistol can do 1.5"-2" at 7 yards.

[Luke]

I've always wondered how accurate my pistols are. Still haven't found anybody to shoot them good enough.

[TR675]

If people are right the Wilson barrel won't fix anything.

I've heard so many different reasons why the M&P's accuracy sucks I can't keep them all straight. I wouldn't mind being a test case for the Wilson barrel if I didn't have a sprog on the way. Funny how that turned me into a cheapskate overnight.

[stingray]

If you haven't shot them at distance, I'm not sure how you can make that statement.

Any functioning modern service pistol can do 1.5"-2" at 7 yards.

Nothing to prove here. I'm just glad my M&P's don't have the accuracy issues others have.

[mizer67]

Nothing to prove here. I'm just glad my M&P's don't have the accuracy issues others have.

You'll never know unless you try. 21 ft. is too short.

I found out in a class that mine sucked, sadly the first time I shot it at 25 yards. Then, the trainer offered to shoot it on a break to verify - same thing, we both got vertically strung ~6" groups. Good way to waste $525 + travel costs when your pistol can't shoot at distance. That's what got me testing all mine.

[stingray]

You'll never know unless you try. 21 ft. is too short.

I found out in a class that mine sucked, sadly the first time I shot it at 25 yards. Then, the trainer offered to shoot it on a break to verify - same thing, we both got vertically strung ~6" groups. Good way to waste $525 + travel costs when your pistol can't shoot at distance. That's what got me testing all mine.

What makes you think I haven't beyond 7 yards with my M&P's?

According to you, a hole that is just over one inch wide is some how a 1 1/2 - 2 inch group. I say yet again, I am glad my M&P's don't have the accuracy issues others have had.

[JBP55]

What makes you think I haven't beyond 7 yards with my M&P's?

According to you, a hole that is just over one inch wide is some how a 1 1/2 - 2 inch group. I say yet again, I am glad my M&P's don't have the accuracy issues others have had.


You said the 7 yard group was the size of a half dollar.

[stingray]

You said the 7 yard group was the size of a half dollar.

not worth my time

[DocGKR]

As I have written and documented previously, the vast majority of full-size M&P9's I've shot have been equivalent to a typical stock 3rd gen 9mm Glock--both pistol types running 90-95 at 25 yds on an NRA B8 slow fire right out of the box. I have seen and shot a couple of M&P9's that offered extremely poor accuracy, with weird flyers making shotgun like patterns at 25 yds. I've also seen some Glocks (both 3rd and 4th gen) with major issues. However the Glocks are generally easier to fix and get running acceptably; infrequently some M&P9's seem to resist all efforts to make them shoot better.

[j.d.allen]

I've always wondered how accurate my pistols are. Still haven't found anybody to shoot them good enough.

Good point. Come to think of it, I'm not that great of a shot at 25 yds anyway. A 6" inch group at 25 might be an improvement for me.

Thanks for the input Doc, and everyone else. Much appreciated.

[DocGKR]

FWIW, I have qualified on both 9 mm Glocks and M&P9's and have no issues using either type.

[j.d.allen]

FWIW, I have qualified on both 9 mm Glocks and M&P9's and have no issues using either type.

Thanks Doc, that's comforting.

[Tod-13]

They weren't fixed in 2013. I had a 9mm CORE PRO that did 8-12 inches at 25 yards. Sold it to someone who only shoots at 7 yards and is happy with it. My old Smith revolvers do 4-6 inches at 50 yards.

[JDB]

I don't get the conventional wisdom about poor grouping only at longer range (25yds).
That hasn't been my experience. My 5-8" grouping guns still grouped poorly at 7 yds, it's just easier to discern the problem at 25 yds. Basically its easier to see and notice a grouping problem at 25, than to realize that a gun that barely does 2" at 7 yds is a problem. Math, angles, geometry and all that...

Example, I've been practicing the frank garcia dot drill...shooting 2" circles at speed. My M&Ps have a hard time keeping them in the 2" circle at 7 yds...at any speed (with still lots of vertical dispersion).

I have a much easier time at the dot drill with the P30. Despite the heavier trigger, snappier recoil, the gun doesn't produce fliers (only I can do that).

FWIW, most of my M&Ps group problems were with vertical dispersion...typical groups would be 2" wide by 5-8" tall at 25 yds (5 shots).

[stingray]

I don't get the conventional wisdom about poor grouping only at longer range (25yds).
That hasn't been my experience. My 5-8" grouping guns still grouped poorly at 7 yds, it's just easier to discern the problem at 25 yds. Basically its easier to see and notice a grouping problem at 25, than to realize that a gun that barely does 2" at 7 yds is a problem. Math, angles, geometry and all that...

Example, I've been practicing the frank garcia dot drill...shooting 2" circles at speed. My M&Ps have a hard time keeping them in the 2" circle at 7 yds...at any speed (with still lots of vertical dispersion).

I have a much easier time at the dot drill with the P30. Despite the heavier trigger, snappier recoil, the gun doesn't produce fliers (only I can do that).

FWIW, most of my M&Ps group problems were with vertical dispersion...typical groups would be 2" wide by 5-8" tall at 25 yds (5 shots).

Now hold on there sir. Are you saying its about math, distance and all stuff?/! How can this be? ;-) Must be that common core kind of math.........

[breakingtime91]

I don't get the conventional wisdom about poor grouping only at longer range (25yds).
That hasn't been my experience. My 5-8" grouping guns still grouped poorly at 7 yds, it's just easier to discern the problem at 25 yds. Basically its easier to see and notice a grouping problem at 25, than to realize that a gun that barely does 2" at 7 yds is a problem. Math, angles, geometry and all that...

Example, I've been practicing the frank garcia dot drill...shooting 2" circles at speed. My M&Ps have a hard time keeping them in the 2" circle at 7 yds...at any speed (with still lots of vertical dispersion).

I have a much easier time at the dot drill with the P30. Despite the heavier trigger, snappier recoil, the gun doesn't produce fliers (only I can do that).

FWIW, most of my M&Ps group problems were with vertical dispersion...typical groups would be 2" wide by 5-8" tall at 25 yds (5 shots).

Its easier to see the issues at 25 out of a competent shooter. Most don't pay attention to accuracy problems (tiny bits of deviation) at 7 yards (unless they are expected shooter induced issues), so kudos to you for noticing it. Honestly we have kind of beaten this subject to death on this site and all I can say now is I hope you like them and they work for you.

[JDB]

Its easier to see the issues at 25 out of a competent shooter. Most don't pay attention to accuracy problems (tiny bits of deviation) at 7 yards (unless they are expected shooter induced issues), so kudos to you for noticing it. Honestly we have kind of beaten this subject to death on this site and all I can say now is I hope you like them and they work for you.

Nope, I decided it doesn't work for me and I moved on to the P30. Really miss CTC lasergrips....

[Aray]

If people are right the Wilson barrel won't fix anything.

Who are these people, and what do they say, specifically?

[JV_]

Those people are clueful engineers, and they say there are machining issues in the slides.

[Aray]

[Redacted snark]

[LittleLebowski]

Who are these people, and what do they say, specifically?

Bill Riehl.

[KevinB]

Bill is not the only one who has talked about the tolerance issues on the M&P9's.

That said I have 4 M&P9's that shoot better than I (not very hard to do though) out to 100m.
Some old, some new - and 2 have Storm Lake barrels only due to the extended threads.

[JV_]

The issues I was recalling was not really a tolerance issue, it was just sloppy machining problems.

One problems was/is the barrel contact points were not cut square to the muzzle.

[KevinB]

In the industry we call that tolerance issues ;)

[orionz06]

The issues I was recalling was not really a tolerance issue, it was just sloppy machining problems.

One problems was barrel contact points not cut square to the muzzle.

I don't recall it being tolerances either, that term gets mixed up too often. I thought it had to do with warpage from heat treat appearing has sloppy machining.


In the industry we call that tolerance issues ;)
It doesn't paint the most accurate picture, especially given the info we have.

[JV_]

I'm not in the industry, nor am I an engineer, so I'll take your word for it.

I think S&W's M&P problems has more to do with poor craftsmanship than poor design specifications, but that's just a WAG. Here's some of my evidence, note there's finish inside of those marks:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RqEgOauZBh0/VJXuPllgXEI/AAAAAAAADjk/Pxkl2wI0cNU/w972-h648-no/MP%2B9C%2BSlide.jpg

[Kyle Reese]

Bill is not the only one who has talked about the tolerance issues on the M&P9's.

That said I have 4 M&P9's that shoot better than I (not very hard to do though) out to 100m.
Some old, some new - and 2 have Storm Lake barrels only due to the extended threads.

I'm taking possession of a new LE SKU M&P 9 on Monday (151215) which has all of the "upgrades". Let's hope it's a shooter at 25.

[JHC]

Bill Riehl.

IIRC he found multiple barrels where the chamber was not exactly true to the bore basically. So the slug had to sort of navigate a chicane on the way out.

[rsa-otc]

Didn't he find the slide warped as well. I think some discussion was around uneven temperatures during the finish process.

[KevinB]

I'm not in the industry, nor am I an engineer, so I'll take your word for it.

I think S&W's M&P problems has more to do with poor craftsmanship than poor design specifications, but that's just a WAG. Here's some of my evidence, note there's finish inside of those marks:



My sarcasm sucks apparently.

Often folks blame tolerance for poor designs or QC.
S&W is not unique to that.

If I had a slide like that it would have gone thru the window at Smith with my return address attached...

[JV_]

Often folks blame tolerance for poor designs or QC.I missed your sarcasm, we're on the same page.

[BLR]

Bill Riehl.

*Disclaimer*
I am specifically talking about any manufacturer right now.

When you do a high temp (like FCN) process on parts that have very different cross section thicknesses, and you cool and heat them at different rates (the slides on the inside of the basket will heat and cool slower than the outside), expect a certain percentage of the parts to warp to a larger extent.

Also, FCN treatment of stainless steel is a bit odd IMHO. FCN is great for low alloy, low carbon steel. Not 400 series stainless.

[BLR]

My sarcasm sucks apparently.

Often folks blame tolerance for poor designs or QC.
S&W is not unique to that.

If I had a slide like that it would have gone thru the window at Smith with my return address attached...

I laughed. Out loud, as a matter of fact.

[Wayne Dobbs]

*Disclaimer*
I am specifically talking about any manufacturer right now.

When you do a high temp (like FCN) process on parts that have very different cross section thicknesses, and you cool and heat them at different rates (the slides on the inside of the basket will heat and cool slower than the outside), expect a certain percentage of the parts to warp to a larger extent.

Also, FCN treatment of stainless steel is a bit odd IMHO. FCN is great for low alloy, low carbon steel. Not 400 series stainless.

Bill,

You and I talked about this slide warping issue and chamber/bore concentric issues in the past. Do you have any direct knowledge whether S&W has "fixed" these issues or are we still in the guessing game with their pistols?

[BLR]

Bill,

You and I talked about this slide warping issue and chamber/bore concentric issues in the past. Do you have any direct knowledge whether S&W has "fixed" these issues or are we still in the guessing game with their pistols?

First my original post should say "Not talking about specific manufactures."

In so far as S&W, I haven't done anything to keep up with the accuracy work.

[incogneato]

I'm taking possession of a new LE SKU M&P 9 on Monday (151215) which has all of the "upgrades". Let's hope it's a shooter at 25.

If it's anything like mine, it will be if you do your part (I have a 309701; which I believe is the same gun, just Melonite finish vs. PVD). I'm still <300 rounds through it, and it probably doesn't help that I'm dividing what little range time I have between it an FNS9, and a G17 (I've convinced myself it's a scientific experiment; please don't tell me otherwise), but so far it's been a champ (as much as one can be in my hands).

On the OT, I would be interested in seeing more details on M&Ps that have/don't have issues, to see if there are any trends. I'm my case, I have SN HUR5xxx, a 2-dimple barrel, positive tactile & audible reset, and the "new" sear. While the round count is low, and I've yet to run it hard, I have had any issues with it.

Keep us posted!

[Rich]

They weren't fixed in 2013. I had a 9mm CORE PRO that did 8-12 inches at 25 yards. Sold it to someone who only shoots at 7 yards and is happy with it. My old Smith revolvers do 4-6 inches at 50 yards.


That's better than the Gen1 P85 I had.
For some reason I shoot a revolver in 38/357 a whole lot better.

[Rich]

I don't get the conventional wisdom about poor grouping only at longer range (25yds).
That hasn't been my experience. My 5-8" grouping guns still grouped poorly at 7 yds, it's just easier to discern the problem at 25 yds. Basically its easier to see and notice a grouping problem at 25, than to realize that a gun that barely does 2" at 7 yds is a problem. Math, angles, geometry and all that...

Example, I've been practicing the frank garcia dot drill...shooting 2" circles at speed. My M&Ps have a hard time keeping them in the 2" circle at 7 yds...at any speed (with still lots of vertical dispersion).

I have a much easier time at the dot drill with the P30. Despite the heavier trigger, snappier recoil, the gun doesn't produce fliers (only I can do that).

FWIW, most of my M&Ps group problems were with vertical dispersion...typical groups would be 2" wide by 5-8" tall at 25 yds (5 shots).

I don't get it either? BTW I Don't have any experience with the M&P 9mm.

I do have experience with a Gen 1 Ruger P85 that wouldn't group consistently . Each group would be totally different and looked like it was shot with a 12GA.
I also shot like this at close range.

[j.d.allen]

Finally received my new gun, and to my surprise it came with the MA compliant trigger. Supposedly about 10.5 lb. Pull . The dealer put the apex trigger springs in it to lighten it a little. I haven't had a chance to have the trigger weight checked or take it to the range. Will report back when I do...

[Luke]

What is a MA compliant trigger? They say bad guys can't use 10lbs triggers or something?

[j.d.allen]

What is a MA compliant trigger? They say bad guys can't use 10lbs triggers or something?

Apparently the state of Massachusets has a law requiring D/A or striker fired pistols to have a t least a ten pound trigger pull. I guess they think it's safer. Kind of like having a DA/SA action with a heavy first pull...I guess my gun was made for Massachusets. Not sure how it ended up in California

[j.d.allen]

Also, for those who are curious, my pistol has a production date of 04/2014 and it has a single dimple barrel.

[ER_STL]

Necropost....

Any updates on whether or not S&W has made any recent changes to the M&P platform in regards to consistency in accuracy?

[RJ]

Not that I've heard.

Might be they incorporate some changes due to the MHS trickle down (Military Handgun System proposal, in evaluation now) but no details have emerged.

I think the last frisson of excitement from S&W owners was the release of the Shield in .45, because, you know, they don't make one in .46.

[LockedBreech]

Every time I shoot my M&P 40 (which is more and more lately because it is just such a superb .40 if you believe in such a thing) I look at it and think "God, why can't they square away your 9mm version?!"

[Luke]

All hearsay but I shot a match with an area director or something specail like that (forgot exact title) for S&W and he said he can't say much but there is a M&P gen2 coming out. It will be the one submitted for the MHS trials.

Who knows if it's true. I hope it is, always liked the M&P.

[breakingtime91]

All hearsay but I shot a match with an area director or something specail like that (forgot exact title) for S&W and he said he can't say much but there is a M&P gen2 coming out. It will be the one submitted for the MHS trials.

Who knows if it's true. I hope it is, always liked the M&P.

Luke...why u do this to me

[Luke]

You should have seen the sigh and disappointment when I asked if accuracy will be fixed haha. He did say yes

[breakingtime91]

You should have seen the sigh and disappointment when I asked if accuracy will be fixed haha. He did say yes

I loved my MPs with thumb safeties besides the accuracy issues... Lol I bet he was flustered, such a good gun ruined by something so important.

[StraitR]

It's not that the problem existed so much as the way S&W refused to admit there was a problem and then deal with it. They denied and delayed long after it was obvious and common knowledge to many. Last I heard, accuracy is still hit or miss.

I'll pass on being an early adopter of a M&P Gen 2 for the aforementioned reasons.

[Luke]

I'm pretty sure General Dynamics took S&W's balls and threw them in the back office and told them to shut up and sit down. Or atleast that's what I'm hoping.

I'd be suprised to see somebody riding the coat tail of General Dynamic screw the pooch AGAIN.. Hopefully.

[StraitR]

Well, GD is outstanding at making tanks, LAV's, and submarines, but I don't know if that makes them qualified small arms designers. That said, they also build M-2's and GAU's (possibly a few others), so maybe there's hope. haha

[RJ]

Well, GD is outstanding at making tanks, LAV's, and submarines, but I don't know if that makes them qualified small arms designers. That said, they also build M-2's and GAU's (possibly a few others), so maybe there's hope. haha

Having worked with GD both as a competitor and teammate in my former life, they are a serious player in the DoD/Aerospace world.

My guess is that they teamed up to bring their fairly extensive Program Management / Contracts / Integrated Logistics Support expertise to the table. I'm sure that S&W has great people, but in a high stakes game like MHS, they would need to bring their programmatic A game, hence GD.

I would like to think the gunsmiths in Springfield know EXACTLY what the problem is/was (*) with the M&P, but Smiths management decided the $50 or whatever per gun was not worth spending in order to make it right.

(* I think Randy Lee had a post with the best explanation of it that I've seen; I think he out of anybody would know.)

[98z28]

The M&P9 full size guns are still a gamble. I had three 2014 production guns that shot great, but sold/traded them off chasing after something else. They all had some version of the dimple barrel. I picked up two current production full size 9's about a month back. Both are very ammo sensitive with factory barrels. Each gun shot Federal 124gr HST and Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot reasonably well (under 4" at 25 yards), but anything else was a crap shoot. One gun couldn't keep any 115gr ammo I tried on an 8.5x11" sheet of paper at 25 yards...from a rest. That one shot 147gr ball well enough, but the other gun wouldn't group less than 6" with any 147gr ammo I tried. I couldn't find a practice load that both guns liked. And I wasn't all that pleased with how the good 124gr stuff grouped.

Apex barrels turned both guns into incredibly precise machines, but it was an expensive and time consuming solution. If I knew I was going burn hundreds of rounds just figuring out that there wasn't a load that both guns liked and would need a $189 barrel for each gun just to make them shoot acceptably well, I probably wouldn't have gone down that road. The ergos and thumb safety are a tough siren call to ignore in a carry gun though. An Apexed M&P can do just about anything well: carry, class, USPSA, NRA Action Pistol...

[LockedBreech]

I can promise - listen up, Smith - that if they can iron out a Gen 2 M&P9 that is HK-style solidly quality controlled, I will pay $550-600 for that gun. Having a well-running M&P 40 really has made the potential of the platform shine to me. It's extremely ergonomic and comfortable recoiling.


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[ranger]

I thought the accuracy issues were limited to 9mm?

[Paul Sharp]

I thought the accuracy issues were limited to 9mm?

It is unique to the 9mm. The 40 and 45 are heartbreakers because they let you see what the M&P can do..., except in 9mm.

[45dotACP]

Guess you'll just have to shoot the M&P in God's Caliber...with a thumb safety, as God intended ;)

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[KeeFus]

I thought the accuracy issues were limited to 9mm?

It is. The .40 & 45 are GTG. I've carried a 45 for the last 5 years as a duty weapon and been our department armorer during our time with the M&Ps. They're more accurate than most of our shooters.

[Paul Sharp]

Guess you'll just have to shoot the M&P in God's Caliber...with a thumb safety, as God intended ;)

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HA! Maybe that's why it's more accurate; God's caliber, the rounds are on a mission from God.

[Cecil Burch]

It is unique to the 9mm. The 40 and 45 are heartbreakers because they let you see what the M&P can do..., except in 9mm.

And 357sig.

I saw the wheels in your head turning trying to figure out how to steal mine after you ran it for a weekend when you were teaching :)

[Paul Sharp]

And 357sig.

I saw the wheels in your head turning trying to figure out how to steal mine after you ran it for a weekend when you were teaching :)

That is a sweet pistol!


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[Jeep]

And 357sig.



I have a drop-in 357 SIG barrel for my .40 M&P. I'm not a 357 SIG fan, but the accuracy of that thing is amazing.

[LockedBreech]

If I already own an M&P40 and a supply of .357 SIG for my P226, is there an especially compelling reason not to spend the $90 for a conversion barrel? Does it do 357 pretty well?


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[LSP972]

Luke...why u do this to me

Why do you CARE???

I thought you had become an HK person?

No big deal, I'm just curious.

.

[breakingtime91]

Why do you CARE???

I thought you had become an HK person?

No big deal, I'm just curious.

.

Oh I love my p2000. I still think, to this day, the mp 9 was the softest shooting 9mm I ever owned. Too bad it couldn't shoot those rounds worth a shit.

[Cecil Burch]

If I already own an M&P40 and a supply of .357 SIG for my P226, is there an especially compelling reason not to spend the $90 for a conversion barrel? Does it do 357 pretty well?


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This may not be a direct answer, since I started with a 357sig M&P in the first place, but the platform shoots it amazingly well. The recoil impulse is much softer, and it is just fun to shoot. I have done a number of high volume courses with it (like a Pat McNamara class for example), and had no issues from the extra power (i.e. no more noticeable soreness or tiredness at the end than I I had run a 9mm). If I could come to emotional terms with running a striker gun while carrying AIWB, it would still be my go-to EDC.

[JM Campbell]

This may not be a direct answer, since I started with a 357sig M&P in the first place, but the platform shoots it amazingly well. The recoil impulse is much softer, and it is just fun to shoot. I have done a number of high volume courses with it (like a Pat McNamara class for example), and had no issues from the extra power (i.e. no more noticeable soreness or tiredness at the end than I I had run a 9mm). If I could come to emotional terms with running a striker gun while carrying AIWB, it would still be my go-to EDC.
What frame do you have.....easy thumb safety install. Parts are under $40.00 if you have the right frame.

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[45dotACP]

If I were to feel comfortable with a striker fired gat in appendix, it'd be a M&P with a thumb safety.

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[spinmove_]

I think the second biggest crime of the M&P platform is the fact that the M&P9c/40c isn't the same size as the M&P45c. Seriously missed opportunity there, honestly.

[LittleLebowski]

If I were to feel comfortable with a striker fired gat in appendix, it'd be a M&P with a thumb safety.


See my signature :cool:

[Tamara]

See my signature :cool:

Gadget helps on a reholster but not if you double-pump a fumbled draw.

And I say this as a very happy Gadget user.

Everything's got advantages and disadvantages.

(ETA: Of course, if you fumble the draw enough that your trigger finger's already got its marching orders and is heading for the trigger while your gun's still tangled in your clothes, then your thumb's likely already wiped the safety off, too. :eek: )

[Cecil Burch]

What frame do you have.....easy thumb safety install. Parts are under $40.00 if you have the right frame.

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Already tried that. It is the older frame so no safety cutout. I still have a TS sitting around that I had ordered before checking the frame specifically. Plus, later, I had a chance to shoot one with the TS, and it is just slightly out of good position for my hand. Otherwise I would have bought a newer gun with one. Apparently, it is just not in the cards for me.

[StraitR]

Already tried that. It is the older frame so no safety cutout. I still have a TS sitting around that I had ordered before checking the frame specifically. Plus, later, I had a chance to shoot one with the TS, and it is just slightly out of good position for my hand. Otherwise I would have bought a newer gun with one. Apparently, it is just not in the cards for me.

I'm surprised S&W sold you a thumb safety. When I went through the M&P Armorers class in 2012, removing a factory MS or adding one to a gun that didn't come that way was strictly verboten. Ordering spare parts generally required a serial number, but was often overlooked except for "safety" parts, in which the serial number was check against model type, at least by our CS rep (who was awesome).

[Luke]

Kinda random, but I have all the thumb saftey stuff you'd need minus the frame of anybody need it.

[Cecil Burch]

I'm surprised S&W sold you a thumb safety. When I went through the M&P Armorers class in 2012, removing a factory MS or adding one to a gun that didn't come that way was strictly verboten. Ordering spare parts generally required a serial number, but was often overlooked except for "safety" parts, in which the serial number was check against model type, at least by our CS rep (who was awesome).

S&W didn't. Bought it online from another vendor. There was a thread on the S&W forum that linked to a dealer that had them.

[StraitR]

Tracking Cecil. Between your post and Luke's, I guess they've loosened the reins on safety parts since then.

[bmg]

S&W didn't. Bought it online from another vendor. There was a thread on the S&W forum that linked to a dealer that had them.

Any chance of getting that info? I could use one.

[JM Campbell]

Any chance of getting that info? I could use one.
http://www.speedshooterspecialties.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=103_90_115&products_id=1188

http://www.speedshooterspecialties.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=103_90_115&products_id=883

There you go.

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[Luke]

Any chance of getting that info? I could use one.

I've got all the saftey stuff if that's what you need.

[Cecil Burch]

http://www.speedshooterspecialties.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=103_90_115&products_id=1188

http://www.speedshooterspecialties.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=103_90_115&products_id=883

There you go.

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That was exactly where i bought mine.

[LockedBreech]

I am considering taking the leap on a current-production M&P9 on price alone. With QP pricing I can get the basic 3-dot sight version for under $400, with Trijicons for $450.

Even with a lot of Google-Fu, it's hard to track all the updates to the design.

(and yes, this is my third thread today about buying stuff, my bank account is heavier than usual and it itches)

[spinmove_]

I am considering taking the leap on a current-production M&P9 on price alone. With QP pricing I can get the basic 3-dot sight version for under $400, with Trijicons for $450.

Even with a lot of Google-Fu, it's hard to track all the updates to the design.

(and yes, this is my third thread today about buying stuff, my bank account is heavier than usual and it itches)

Well, you know the quirks and pitfalls for the most part and some of the Apex parts sound promising. I wish you the best of luck and leave you with a cautionary "you get what you pay for" warning.


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[LockedBreech]

Well, you know the quirks and pitfalls for the most part and some of the Apex parts sound promising. I wish you the best of luck and leave you with a cautionary "you get what you pay for" warning.


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The lucky part of being a gun magnet is that I have a lot of options available. I know that's frowned upon on this forum, just as I have no doubt I will eventually cede to the wisdom of a simplified and smaller gun collection, but for now I like having a stuffed safe, and so if the M&P sucks I have the 92FS, VP9, G19, etc to fall back on.

At this point I kinda want to try it out of raw curiosity. My 2011 M&P40 has a suck-ass trigger but is reliable and feels good in the hand. I'm curious what 5 more years development has done for the trigger and it seems decently likely I'd get an accurate one at this point.

You aren't wrong though. Glock is $550 for a Gen 4, my VP9 was around $700 for the LE package, and my 92FS was $535. Even with non-LE pricing the M&P9 is like $430 right now. Something has to be giving in that $100 price difference.

Edit: Of course, for around $450, I could try the CZ P07 second-gen...

You know what? It's 4:12 AM, I have not slept yet, and if I don't go to sleep I'm going to buy something without thinking it through. It's bedtime.

Something about the goddamned albatross M&P9 has sung to me for years.

[spinmove_]

The lucky part of being a gun magnet is that I have a lot of options available. I know that's frowned upon on this forum, just as I have no doubt I will eventually cede to the wisdom of a simplified and smaller gun collection, but for now I like having a stuffed safe, and so if the M&P sucks I have the 92FS, VP9, G19, etc to fall back on.

At this point I kinda want to try it out of raw curiosity. My 2011 M&P40 has a suck-ass trigger but is reliable and feels good in the hand. I'm curious what 5 more years development has done for the trigger and it seems decently likely I'd get an accurate one at this point.

You aren't wrong though. Glock is $550 for a Gen 4, my VP9 was around $700 for the LE package, and my 92FS was $535. Even with non-LE pricing the M&P9 is like $430 right now. Something has to be giving in that $100 price difference.

The M&P9 fs that I had, before I sold it, was of 2014ish vintage. My wife has an M&P40c of original release vintage. The only real difference in the trigger was mine had somewhat of a defined reset. That's about it.

Part of what's missing in that $100 is lack of interest from the gun folk due to issues. Another part is helping S&W's bottom line I think. Either way I just wish/hope they'd get their crap together and just fix the fs 9.

For now I'll stick to my Glocks.


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[LockedBreech]

The M&P9 fs that I had, before I sold it, was of 2014ish vintage. My wife has an M&P40c of original release vintage. The only real difference in the trigger was mine had somewhat of a defined reset. That's about it.

Part of what's missing in that $100 is lack of interest from the gun folk due to issues. Another part is helping S&W's bottom line I think. Either way I just wish/hope they'd get their crap together and just fix the fs 9.

For now I'll stick to my Glocks.


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I talk about guns and I have stacks of them, but my Walther PPS M1 remains the one I spend about 90% of my life with, and the other 10% is the Glock 19. I enjoy the esoterica but when it's my life I like the boring ones that go bang.

[spinmove_]

I talk about guns and I have stacks of them, but my Walther PPS M1 remains the one I spend about 90% of my life with, and the other 10% is the Glock 19. I enjoy the esoterica but when it's my life I like the boring ones that go bang.

Pretty much the same for me, except instead of a Walther it's a Shield. I unfortunately just don't have the same liquid assets available to buy more guns or else I'd probably have a similar stack in my safe. :P


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[LockedBreech]

Pretty much the same for me, except instead of a Walther it's a Shield. I unfortunately just don't have the same liquid assets available to buy more guns or else I'd probably have a similar stack in my safe. :P


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If it makes you feel better I'll probably end up getting fired in a round of budget cuts and live huddled in my Subaru bristling with guns, confusing every passerby about my political alignment.

[spinmove_]

If it makes you feel better I'll probably end up getting fired in a round of budget cuts and live huddled in my Subaru bristling with guns, confusing every passerby about my political alignment.

Nah. When I think "Subaru full of guns" I think "Libertarian Hipster". It's actually pretty specific and not at all confusing. Unless of course you don't wear skinny jeans, a scarf, and have Ray-Ban Wayfarers while also wearing a Beretta T-shirt...

[LockedBreech]

Nah. When I think "Subaru full of guns" I think "Libertarian Hipster". It's actually pretty specific and not at all confusing. Unless of course you don't wear skinny jeans, a scarf, and have Ray-Ban Wayfarers while also wearing a Beretta T-shirt...

I don't do the skinny jean scarf look but open collar dress shirts with dark Lucky jeans are common, as are peacoats and layered sweaters.

Son of a bitch, I'm a hipster.


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[jeep45238]

Aw shit son!!

[mmc45414]

Nah. When I think "Subaru full of guns" I think "Libertarian Hipster". It's actually pretty specific and not at all confusing. Unless of course you don't wear skinny jeans, a scarf, and have Ray-Ban Wayfarers while also wearing a Beretta T-shirt...

I do sorta feel smug when I know I am the guy wearing the "Seattle" hat we bought on vacation while carrying a gun. I seem to avoid wearing the shooting related branded wear while actually shooting. And I wanted the wife to choose the WRX but we ended up with the Element, Honda targeted the "hip" demographic but ended up selling them into the "old" demographic...

Back to the subject matter, as I have mentioned, the last M&P9fs I bought had a great trigger. After inspecting mine a buddy bought one also (we were snagging them on sale for less than $400, I paid $399 and he got $379) and my trigger was no fluke. I already had the Apex stuff bought so I installed it, but the factory trigger was fine. I also had the then new Apex barrel and I installed it without shooting it much, now I am thinking about doing a comparison with the stock barrel someday.

[RJ]

At this point I kinda want to try it out of raw curiosity. My 2011 M&P40 has a suck-ass trigger but is reliable and feels good in the hand. I'm curious what 5 more years development has done for the trigger and it seems decently likely I'd get an accurate one at this point.



My '13 M&P FS9 had a suck ass trigger but was reliable and felt good in the hand.

I'm aware of exactly zero production changes to the M&P. And why should they? It sold well.

Can you wait till SHOT in January? It seems at least possible that Smiff and Wesson's MHS entry could be announced. Who knows? It might also have addressed their accuracy issues.

Good luck!

[orionz06]

I don't do the skinny jean scarf look but open collar dress shirts with dark Lucky jeans are common, as are peacoats and layered sweaters.

Son of a bitch, I'm a hipster.


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You're good, not dressing like an asshole doesn't necessarily make one a hipster. This is of course using the real definition rather than the P-F adopted definition of anyone not wearing a vest, wearing jeans that touch their legs, or younger than 55.


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[Aray]

Shut up, hipster.

[mmc45414]

This is of course using the real definition rather than the P-F adopted definition of anyone... younger than 55.

Slow down there skippy, and get offa my lawn...