Informative CCW Article

[Corlissimo]

Found this link via another forum I frequent. While written for LEOs, I though it presented some interesting insights for anyone who carries concealed. Even though I have worked very hard to CC discreetly, I realized I have more "tells" than I thought, but that may not necessarily be a bad thing.

http://www.policeone.com/pc_print.asp?vid=2144601

[LittleLebowski]

That is an excellent article! I liked it enough to blog about it.

Really should be mandatory reading for CCW holders and LEOs.

Thanks for posting it.

[JConn]

That was refreshing. Great article.

[ubervic]

Found this link via another forum I frequent. While written for LEOs, I though it presented some interesting insights for anyone who carries concealed. Even though I have worked very hard to CC discreetly, I realized I have more "tells" than I thought, but that may not necessarily be a bad thing.

http://www.policeone.com/pc_print.asp?vid=2144601

It's great to read an article which provides NEW information that hasn't been rehashed dozens of times.

Thanks for sharing the great piece.

[Alpha Sierra]

I agree it was good.

This one, not so much: http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/2143085-Would-be-warriors-in-waiting-Getting-help-when-you-need-it/


Check your state statutes for a “Refusal to Aid Officer” statute. Discover if your state or province (for brothers and sisters in Canada) has one. Then consider adding this tool to your tool box when you need back-up “right now!” and there are no uniforms close.

Really?

[WDW]

Dang!!! The author outed me on my fanny pack. Now what am I gonna carry my gold Taurus .25 with pearl grips in?

[Alpha Sierra]

Dang!!! The author outed me on my fanny pack. Now what am I gonna carry my gold Taurus .25 with pearl grips in?

Go mexican?

[SmokeJumper]

Good Stuff, thanks for sharing. Police One puts out a great newsletter weekly, they also now have the famed Calibre Press.

[Tamara]

Even though I have worked very hard to CC discreetly, I realized I have more "tells" than I thought, but that may not necessarily be a bad thing.

Oh, dear. I seem to be dressed like an off-duty cop. Hey, you know who I almost never read about getting mugged or otherwise pestered?

[ubervic]

IMHO, it's not so bad to appear to be an off-duty cop. Although I will never impersonate a LEO, I don't mind if a bad guy thinks it a bad idea to take me or my family on for fear that I carry myself in a way that indicates I'm potentially armed.

[Alpha Sierra]

IMHO, it's not so bad to appear to be an off-duty cop.
I'd rather be completely grey. If someone wants to dance because he mistakes being low key with weakness, well it will suck to be him.

[Tamara]

I'd rather be completely grey. If someone wants to dance because he mistakes being low key with weakness, well it will suck to be him.

Really? 'Cause I'd prefer someone decide that I'm someone he'd rather not dance with at all.

(Don't get me wrong: I totally support grey rights. Personally, I'd rather stay in the closet about being grey, because I don't want to be grey-bashed.)

[JAD]

Cooper and Clint Smith leaned / lean on this a lot, and Avery touched on it in his article -- it really comes down to how you carry yourself. "If you look like food, you will be eaten" doesn't have much to do with black untucked polos and cargo pants; it's about holding your head up and making eye contact. I like grey in concept, and am not bad at being inconspicuous; but I think 'they' can tell, and have to decide either to shoot me first or pick another gas station. And I'm a /twerp/; I can't imagine how some of you badasses must light up the sensors. You think anyone ever walked into a 7-11, saw SouthNarc, and said, "yeah, this'll be *cake*?"

[Tamara]

...it's about holding your head up and making eye contact.
Quoted for truth.

With a parking lot full of people face-down in their iPhones, why is somebody going to pick the person who is obviously paying attention to their surroundings?

[NickA]

IMHO, it's not so bad to appear to be an off-duty cop. Although I will never impersonate a LEO, I don't mind if a bad guy thinks it a bad idea to take me or my family on for fear that I carry myself in a way that indicates I'm potentially armed.
Side note: i've had an instructor suggest that if you're at the verbal stage of a confrontation, yell "Pleece! Stop! " if the bad guy thinks you said "police" well he should get his ears checked:) also- flashlights. A light in the face and strong voice immediately suggests cop.

[ubervic]

I have studied what's known as 'command presence,' or the body language of one who is alert, in control, confident and just plain 'ready.' I believe in carrying oneself to project that air of quiet confidence---nothing flashy, and nothing to draw attention to oneself; just a presence that makes anyone wondering about victimizing think 'hmmm....NOT easy prey.'

If I can make myself and my family less attractive to attack/assault merely by virtue of my body language, then I'm going to take advantage of this simple technique 24/7.

[JConn]

I'd rather be completely grey. If someone wants to dance because he mistakes being low key with weakness, well it will suck to be him.

Being grey and looking alert and ready are not mutually exclusive. I don't think its about anyone knowing your carrying or trained in martial arts or really good at insult gun fighting. Its about being aware of your surroundings, situational awareness, and as ubervic stated, command presence. As simple as scanning the parking lot on the way to the car instead of texting or reading pistol-forum on your phone. I find myself having to constantly correct myself to insure that I am not projecting "easy target."

[Alpha Sierra]

Really? 'Cause I'd prefer someone decide that I'm someone he'd rather not dance with at all.
There are ways to convey that attitude without wearing Merrells on your feet, 5.11 trousers, a knife clipped to your pocket, a khaki ballcap with an American flag, and Revision sunglasses.

But this is a free country so to each their own.

ETA: did I nail all the stereotypes?

[jslaker]

There are ways to convey that attitude without wearing Merrells on your feet, 5.11 trousers, a knife clipped to your pocket, a khaki ballcap with a Gadsden flag, and Revision sunglasses.

But this is a free country so to each their own.

ETA: did I nail all the stereotypes?

Now you did. ;)

[Tamara]

It's a black ball cap with an INGO patch, thank you very much, and the only reason I'm wearing my Wiley X's is because I broke my beloved Wayfarers... :p

(...and seriously, when did a clip on a pocketknife become "Blackwater Chic"? Knives with pocket clips are practically mainstream these days.)

[ToddG]

I do think we tend to get cause and effect mixed up a lot when we start to identify CCWers. Hey, most CCWers have two hands, that must be a threat indicator!

The hate for fanny packs is a great example. Whenever someone tells me he "knows" all fanny packs carry guns, I just roll my eyes. I live in a state where few people want to carry guns and far fewer are allowed to CCW. But I see fanny packs at the mall, the dog park, and on folks walking up and down Main Street all the time. You're telling me these people are all armed?

http://www.spohszine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/fanny-packs.jpg

[Tamara]

You're telling me these people are all armed?
The fanny pack on the chick on the left is a decoy. Her P3AT is in the PagerPal holster behind it.

[Frank B]

Great article! Some good points are made and it´s interesting to see it from the LEO side.

[jslaker]

The hate for fanny packs is a great example. Whenever someone tells me he "knows" all fanny packs carry guns, I just roll my eyes. I live in a state where few people want to carry guns and far fewer are allowed to CCW. But I see fanny packs at the mall, the dog park, and on folks walking up and down Main Street all the time. You're telling me these people are all armed?

I think it's largely a question of locality.

Where I'm at, it's pretty much like Tam said where nobody would bat an eye at a clip-on knife. On the other hand, when I was out at a restaurant recently and saw a gentleman wearing a shirt-and-tie-and-fanny-pack it said "gun" with near certainty to me. (I later found out the gentleman in question is a detective in the local PD).

The difference is that I see clip-on knives all the time here, but fanny packs -- especially on men -- are nearly unheard of.

I think it's safe to say that the difference between the ordinary and a tell depends entirely on your local culture and context.

[Tamara]

A cordura fanny pack with office attire might look odd, whereas a cordura fanny pack with a leather Joe Rocket jacket and a helmet dangling from your weak hand is pretty nondescript.

[shep854]

Oh, dear. I seem to be dressed like an off-duty cop. Hey, you know who I almost never read about getting mugged or otherwise pestered?

Heh. It's kind of like the instant respect white Crown Vics, gray Chargers and gray Suburbans get down here in Alabama--especially if the windows are tinted. Even luggage racks on the SUVs get reactions; from a distance they are hard to tell from low-profile light bars.
----
Another +1 for the article; it was a very good read.

[LtDave]

If you look like food...
I was on the City's credit union board once upon a time and went to a meeting with the accountant/auditor. Conversation led to him mentioning how he had been mugged 2 or 3 times. The other cop on the board and I looked at each other and I swear we both thought exactly the same thing. This guy was so Casper milk toast that we thought about mugging him ourselves right there in the credit union. Definitely food.

[texag]

It's nothing more than an anecdote, but I found it amusing.

There's an AAR of a class at CSAT over on lf.net. The student mentions how earlier that week some common street thugs decided they would target Paul Howe (http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/about.htm). There wasn't much detail on what went down, but the story ends with one of the would be robbers sitting with his head in his hands while waiting to get picked up by the law.

Just goes to show that even people who are beyond proficient, uber experienced, and most likely ooze "don't fuck with me" can still be targeted due to a failure in the victim selection process.

[mc1911]

It's nothing more than an anecdote, but I found it amusing.

There's an AAR of a class at CSAT over on lf.net. The student mentions how earlier that week some common street thugs decided they would target Paul Howe (http://www.combatshootingandtactics.com/about.htm). There wasn't much detail on what went down, but the story ends with one of the would be robbers sitting with his head in his hands while waiting to get picked up by the law.

Just goes to show that even people who are beyond proficient, uber experienced, and most likely ooze "don't fuck with me" can still be targeted due to a failure in the victim selection process.

I think this depends on what the victim selection process is. Assuming that looking like a hard target will solve the problem of being targeted only works if the objective of those targeting is finding a pushover for quick financial gain. Sometimes you run into some guys who just have the testosterone pumping and they see someone who looks tough and decide they want to know if it is all looks. At that point, the fight itself is the objective.

[Tamara]

Just goes to show that even people who are beyond proficient, uber experienced, and most likely ooze "don't fuck with me" can still be targeted due to a failure in the victim selection process.

Holy dogshit! You mean nothing is foolproof?!? ;)

(Seriously: There are a certain percentage of people that will case the target and say "Hey, that looks like a very alert off-duty cop" and wait or go elsewhere. And then there's an even smaller percentage that don't give a fuck. Would you rather deter some, or none?)

[LtDave]

Sometimes overuse of the recreational chemicals messes up the victim selection process.

[Kyle Reese]

Sometimes overuse of the recreational chemicals messes up the victim selection process.

...and some are stone cold crazy and will attack anyone.

[TCinVA]

If you look like food...
I was on the City's credit union board once upon a time and went to a meeting with the accountant/auditor. Conversation led to him mentioning how he had been mugged 2 or 3 times. The other cop on the board and I looked at each other and I swear we both thought exactly the same thing. This guy was so Casper milk toast that we thought about mugging him ourselves right there in the credit union. Definitely food.

...but even if you don't look like food. Take me, for example. I'm a fairly large dude who wears 5.11's with a clipped on knife, etc. I rolled into a local gas station in my Dodge Charger that's got a Vickers Tactical sticker in the rear window. I was wearing a Blackwater ballcap and because I thought it would be funny to screw with Todd, I was even wearing my FAST pin. I was aware of my surroundings whereas all the other people in the gas station were busy with their things.

So you'd figure that if there was a dude there looking to rob somebody he would steer well clear of me because I'm practically advertising that I'm going to shoot him in the face. Nevertheless, a dude decides to attempt a strong-arm robbery on me as I attempted to leave the gas station.

Here's the thing about all that gun-guy stuff: It's only a sign to gun guys. Most people, including most bad guys and even most police officers, don't put that sort of stuff together into identifying "Hey...that dude probably has a gun." I do because I recognize it.

I conducted a little experiment some time back while riding along with a buddy on a local department. We were in a gas station getting something to drink. I was doing my usual scanning and I noticed a man walk in wearing what I thought was a TAD gear jacket. There was a flag patch on one shoulder and a logo from one of the larger gun boards worn as a patch on the other shoulder. Instantly I knew he was probably carrying. As we approached the front of the store to pay for the drinks, I noticed the unmistakable bulge of a hip-carried Glock in a tan kydex holster, the bottom 1/3 of which was visible below the jacket. My buddy didn't spot the gun for another 25 or 30 seconds. Why? Because he's not an obsessive gun nerd who had seen that stuff a million times before and was able to practically sense its presence like a disturbance in the Force.

He didn't notice the armed person because...and this is key...the armed person wasn't acting like a bad guy. A person's demeanor and behavior are the things that most police officers and most bad guys key off of, not their wardrobe or the logos on their clothing. (One of Todd's "Drop 200 pounds FAST!" shirts might make a difference) Even at that, most bad guys who do the robbery-on-the-street thing have probably done it to clean-cut white guys a bunch of times without encountering serious resistance and their assessment of you as a potential target may not be changed by anything short of a uniform and badge. Some dude who has been working himself up to commit an act of criminal violence who's under the influence of adrenaline with probably a lifetime of poor decisions behind him isn't as likely to notice the stuff that says "WARNING: THIS PERSON WILL KILL YOU AND THEN LAUGH ABOUT IT WITH HIS FRIENDS LATER" as you might think.

Some criminals are certainly methodical and calculating in what they do. Many, however, are impulsive to a point that the mind boggles. Not looking like every other person out there lost in their iPhone is certainly smart...but I'm afraid that it's not the deterrent that many believe it to be.

[Al T.]

It's only a sign to gun guys

Or switched on people. One of my shooting buddies is a gang TF officer and he is very switched on to their dress and other cult artifacts (tattoos, jewelry, etc.).

IMHO, big thing is being observant and as South Narc so eloquently put it, avoid task fixation.

[Tamara]

Not looking like every other person out there lost in their iPhone is certainly smart...but I'm afraid that it's not the deterrent that many believe it to be.

True.

Likewise, I don't think that a pair of side-zip boots, a black Coal Creek Armory ball cap, a knife clip in a jeans pocket, and an untucked & unbuttoned chambray shirt is some horrible criminal attention magnet, although it's not all stealthy and grey and low-observable.

Seriously, I haven't seen such obsessive fashion policing since I was in middle school.

I like wearing my Blackwater hat in the artsy bohemian urban neighborhood I live in; it's like frickin' hippie kryptonite.

[jslaker]

Here's the thing about all that gun-guy stuff: It's only a sign to gun guys.

Give this man a cookie.

[vcdgrips]

Based on my training and experience to date, I would note that the "uniform" and other "cues" are only noticable by "gun guys". The thing is that a few of the "gun guys" out there are professional criminals who are bad to the bone in constant predator mode. It is simply who there are. The get up and one of their first thoughts is what is the next "hustle" or "lick" or "job" or "thing" they are going to pull for the day.

YMMV greatly,

David

[MDS]

Some dude who has been working himself up to commit an act of criminal violence who's under the influence of adrenaline with probably a lifetime of poor decisions behind him isn't as likely to notice the stuff that says "WARNING: THIS PERSON WILL KILL YOU AND THEN LAUGH ABOUT IT WITH HIS FRIENDS LATER" as you might think.

That right there? That's truth + lolz. :)

I've had some experience in manipulating the receiving end of the victim selection process. Obviously, I feel more vulnerable when I'm wearing a shirt and tie. But even dressed in Carhartt and Woolrich, I used to get hassled a lot less when I was a young, dark(er)-skinned, long-haired, earing-bedecked, metal-t-shirt-wearing kid from a dense urban blue-collar neighborhood. (Well... hassled a lot less by the bad guys. Lots of cops used to read me the wrong way. I don't blame them.)

Anyway, my point is that, wardrobe pressure from work and family notwithstanding, IME you're less likely to get targeted if you legitimately look like a certain kind of harmless dirtbag, than if you look like an off-duty cop with a 5.11 fetish.

[texag]

Holy dogshit! You mean nothing is foolproof?!? ;)

(Seriously: There are a certain percentage of people that will case the target and say "Hey, that looks like a very alert off-duty cop" and wait or go elsewhere. And then there's an even smaller percentage that don't give a fuck. Would you rather deter some, or none?)

I wasn't commenting either way on how much of a deterrent looking like a cop is. I just thought it was amusing that some thugs randomly went after what is likely the baddest guy for at least 100 miles.

I think the way you carry yourself is a more effective deterrent than the clothes you wear.

[mnealtx]

Side note: i've had an instructor suggest that if you're at the verbal stage of a confrontation, yell "Pleece! Stop! " if the bad guy thinks you said "police" well he should get his ears checked:) also- flashlights. A light in the face and strong voice immediately suggests cop.

I think we may have had the same instructor... :cool:

[Mjolnir]

True.

Likewise, I don't think that a pair of side-zip boots, a black Coal Creek Armory ball cap, a knife clip in a jeans pocket, and an untucked & unbuttoned chambray shirt is some horrible criminal attention magnet, although it's not all stealthy and grey and low-observable.

Seriously, I haven't seen such obsessive fashion policing since I was in middle school.

I like wearing my Blackwater hat in the artsy bohemian urban neighborhood I live in; it's like frickin' hippie kryptonite.
LOL! Next time I'm bicycling in Broad Ripple Village we need to have a cup of coffee! LOL!


I'm admonished every now and then about the stuff I wear. When I lived in the Detroit Metro Area I'd wear something like an HK International Training Team polo or T-shirt, light hiking shoes, a large folding knife, large black plastic watch such that I'd not be bothered when I (A) went to the barbershop and (B) whenever I went downtown.

A close friend of mine (white guy) would dress similar and he had a shaved head. I'd take him to the black bars in the city and he'd take me to the white bars and people ALWAYS mistook us for undercover guys. When I'd ask someone why they thought we were they'd say, "salt n pepper", clean cut, athletic, shoes AND THE WAY WE CARRIED OURSELVES. The latter is probably the most important thing in MOST circumstances though a Black and White guy hoofing it on the streets of Detroit at night "smells like a setup" to me, too! LOL!