Reconciliing Multiple Holster Positions

[Mr_White]

The exclusive vs. nonexclusive appendix carry poll thread has prompted me to start this one.

One of the points of contention in the other thread was whether and how badly it might or might not mess a person up to have multiple positions to potentially draw from. If you do carry strong side some of the time, and appendix carry other times, how do you personally divide or try to optimize your practice? Some dry draws each time you put on a given rig? Do most of your practice with one rig - competition, duty, concealed carry/off-duty? Or do you divide it? The sub-issue of whether the effect is worse in a primary draw vs. drawing a backup gun was also raised. Etc., etc., etc.

Seemed like it might be a worthwhile sister discussion.

[45dotACP]

I personally do multiple holster positions but I don't really practice drawing an openly carried OWB at 3:00. It's seriously the easiest setup to draw from out there. That, and from a competitive standpoint, the draw isn't really a huge time factor. I find a 1.5 second draw won't kill my score if I've got a good stage plan.

From a defensive standpoint, the draw is a big deal. I practice AIWB draws probably 75% of the time compared to 3:00/4:00 but the number is gradually shrinking in favor of traditional carry. The gun I use for AIWB is a Beretta, and I have noted in my training journal that my performance is suffering from me having too many different trigger setups, so something's gotta give. The Beretta has the least money invested in it, so it loses. I'll probably be either picking up an AIWB holster for my 1911, or just sticking with a 3:00 to 4:00 IWB position (which conceals better for me).

I don't believe it's too much of a confounding factor because once a person has made the decision to draw a gun, they should know where the gun is on their belt. I know some people consider drawing to be an automatic response, but I find danger in that notion. Namely, the danger that one of my friends might try to jump scare me and end up with the muzzle end of my carry gun in his face.

[SpencerDS]

I got into a disagreement with someone over this exact issue not too long ago. Here is my take on it, I let it go at the time because I figure he is a big boy and can make his own decisions and it's only gonna give me a headache trying to convince him otherwise.

I carry one of three ways: on duty open carry or under a jacket 3 o'clock in an offset kydex holster(little to no drop), concealed 3-3:30 in an OWB JM Custom Kydex under jacket or button-up shirt, last is concealed appendix with either a JM Custom AIWB, or VG2. I really only carry appendix when I am running out alone real quick to a store or not going to get out of my car, mainly because I keep a gun in one of those holsters near my front door as a grab-n-go. If I am going out with my wife, son or both I will put on a shirt or jacket and put on my OWB holster. I practice draws primarily from the first two carry positions, because I am most likely to be carrying that way. However, I will train from AIWB 25% of the time, and usually do a practice draw or two before I step out the door. While carrying AIWB as I am looking around I also remind myself regularly that I am carrying AIWB and how I will need to draw.
I understand the people that will only carry from one position, but in the case of the individual I had the argument with, he was not carrying that day and I was. So I think the priority of having a gun was forgotten on his part. Even though he had an AR in his car.
Just my opinion, everyone has to decide for themselves.

[okie john]

One of the points of contention in the other thread was whether and how badly it might or might not mess a person up to have multiple positions to potentially draw from.

I stick to one pistol in one position. I train with 2-3 cover garments, but that's about all the flexibility I expect from my reptile brain during a mind-bending adrenalin rush. I'd rather use what limited brain power I'll have for unscrewing the tactical situation than for trying to find my pistol.


Okie John

[rob_s]

This is one of those topics that never seems to go anywhere, as those that use multiple positions have decided that it works for them, and those that don't have decided they prefer things in one spot. No amount of discussion on the internet is likely to change that.

Provided that the multi-carry person's position isn't based on the merry-go-round of guns, or that they're not carrying one way one time just 'cause the cool kids do it and another way another time because that's what's actually comfortable to him, the multi-carry guy simply has to make up his mind to practice more IMO. Twice the carry positions, twice the practice.

Personally I try to keep my competition gun as close to the location of my carry gun as I can. I don't practice enough to do it any other way.

[JHC]

I'm a 50/50 AIWB or IWB depending on dress and activity planned. But whatever carry in play that day; gets numerous "half draws" (hand to grip) THAT day when discretion allows; which is plenty.

I've done enough stuff under serious pressure I've NOT PRACTICED ONCE before the fateful moment; that was more complicated that drawing a fuckin' pistol that I'm confident I can figure this out.

[GJM]

YVK and I were discussing this tonight, and he said something that caused me to start experimenting. In other words, leave the theoretical, and start drawing the pistol from appendix and 3 o'clock.

As it turns out, I come into the appendix position with my strong hand from my hip. Essentially there is no difference with my strong hand whether appendix or hip, as I start from the hip for both draws. What makes an enormous difference is the cover garment. If it is a closed front garment, I use my support hand to clear the garment. If it is an open front garment, I use my strong hand.

My take away is the type garment and which hand is used to clear the garment is more important than the appendix or hip holster position. As long as I wear a closed front concealment garment, there is no meaningful difference between appendix and hip for me. Open front, completely different draw. My practice has been to almost exclusively use close front garments for concealment, and after this exercise I plan to continue that choice.

[45dotACP]

YVK and I were discussing this tonight, and he said something that caused me to start experimenting. In other words, leave the theoretical, and start drawing the pistol from appendix and 3 o'clock.

As it turns out, I come into the appendix position with my strong hand from my hip. Essentially there is no difference with my strong hand whether appendix or hip, as I start from the hip for both draws. What makes an enormous difference is the cover garment. If it is a closed front garment, I use my support hand to clear the garment. If it is an open front garment, I use my strong hand.

My take away is the type garment and which hand is used to clear the garment is more important than the appendix or hip holster position. As long as I wear a closed front concealment garment, there is no meaningful difference between appendix and hip for me. Open front, completely different draw. My practice has been to almost exclusively use close front garments for concealment, and after this exercise I plan to continue that choice.

Good point. I have never been able to get around the idea of shooting IDPA in a vest and then switching to IWB with an untucked T-shirt

[YVK]

If you do carry strong side some of the time, and appendix carry other times, how do you personally divide or try to optimize your practice?

First, I don't believe there is much risk of me trying to draw from a wrong location for the same reasons that TLG alluded to when he mentioned the reload and malf clearance slide work commonality nonsense.

Second, if there was a chance of that happening, it would be a lot more likely that I'd try to draw from nonexistent appendix holster in a match than from nonexistent OWB in self defense, considering a significant predominance of aiwb use for me.

Third, since I don't like leaving things to the chance, I try my best to start all my dry fire practices with OWB but finish with AIWB. In fact, my intent is to do all drlls owb, and then repeat them aiwb. Plus I set up aiwb only sessions only to keep habituating myself for AIWB as a primary position.

[David B.]

I train OWB 3 o'clock and carry IWB 3:30 (mag pouch always in the same spot). There is essentially no difference in the presentation for me except for clearing the cover garment. Most of the time it's an open front sport/suit coat. Therefore the strong hand sweeps the garment and begins the presentation of the firearm.

Personally, I prefer to train most of the time not from concealment simply because I enjoy shooting more that way. If I'm spending the money on guns and ammo and the time reloading and shooting, I want to have fun, and wearing a suit coat every time I train would not be fun. Of course, it might not be an issue if I wore polo shirts or t-shirts to work everyday.

God Bless,
David

[DocGKR]

No matter what holster, my primary pistol sits between 1-3 o'clock, so there is minimal difference in location.

[JHC]

For those that are 100% AIWB, do you never have dress situations that would result in an open cover garment? Staying buttoned up or using a vest are options there of course.

Do you ever need deep concealment like Smart Carry and if you do use that, are you drilling that with equivalent reps?

GJMs remarks about the nuances of the cover garment don't get near the play of holster type but that can really influence a clean draw from either.

Tom Given's reasoning for all IWB 3:30 is pretty strong. That'll work for just about every dress situation.

Does it rise to derp if one can ONLY carry one way and can ONLY wear one style of cover garment that is made on just ONE type of fabric? ;)

[SteveB]

No matter what holster, my primary pistol sits between 1-3 o'clock, so there is minimal difference in location.

Exactly. For me, it's more about AIWB vs OWB/IWB, however, I know where the pistol is. That is, I don't have to think about the location of the pistol; finding the pistol during the draw happens subliminally. To George's point about cover garments: I carry OWB, or IWB on the hip, with open-front garments; AIWB with closed front. I suck at drawing from OWB with closed-front garments.

[GJM]

Tom Given's reasoning for all IWB 3:30 is pretty strong. That'll work for just about every dress situation.
)

Depends on how you dress. No way I could carry a G35 at 3:30 and conceal it in most of what I wear. Cover yes, concealment no. Plus my draw time is slower there.

[SLG]

I'm a 50/50 AIWB or IWB depending on dress and activity planned. But whatever carry in play that day; gets numerous "half draws" (hand to grip) THAT day when discretion allows; which is plenty.

I've done enough stuff under serious pressure I've NOT PRACTICED ONCE before the fateful moment; that was more complicated that drawing a fuckin' pistol that I'm confident I can figure this out.


I once watched Steven Seagal diffuse a nuke over a satellite link. Now that's pressure!

[JHC]

I once watched Steven Seagal diffuse a nuke over a satellite link. Now that's pressure!

Wait, all he did was shoot the laptop!!!!

[David Armstrong]

I don't carry AIWB, but I do carry in a number of other positions and use a variety of holsters. I've not found it to be an issue.

[JHC]

Depends on how you dress. No way I could carry a G35 at 3:30 and conceal it in most of what I wear. Cover yes, concealment no. Plus my draw time is slower there.

Roger that. Me too. If it had to be ONLY one I think Tom has a point but yes going only one would require some changes for sure.

You're carrying a G35 now?

[El Cid]

In my experience there are some folks who do everything well and are just plain gifted. They will be smooth, fast, and accurate regardless of the weapon, holster, etc. I'm not one of those people. I need to practice regularly.


I believe most folks are not in that category of gifted shooter, though some convince themselves they are to quell their inner voice and its concerns. I'd bet that most people who believe they can/will execute a perfect draw under stress no matter where the holster is located, haven't drawn the gun under real stress.


Muscle memory is real and we've all experienced it. Whether reaching for your cell phone, gun, sunglasses... our bodies get programmed to do certain actions subconsciously. I've reached for the column of my POV after a week of driving my work car that had a column shifter. My POV has a floor mounted shifter. I know a 20+ year LEO who thought he was going to need to shoot a mope and his hand went to his belt. Luckily the mope gave up as the gun was in a drop leg holster. That holster was replaced that day with a belt mounted version.


Some of us need fewer reps to get the needed muscle memory, but I'd argue some level of it is necessary. If a person does all his range work from a 4 o'clock holster and carries on the street at 1 o'clock then he better be switched on constantly! It's my firm belief that if he has to draw quickly under life and death kind of stresses he will be reaching to the wrong location.


I shoot a local steel match from concealment. I use the same style buttoned shirts or polos I wear on and off duty. The best part is that the technique I use for clearing the garment works on open front suit coats if I'm wearing one and my muscle memory takes over.


All of us take and accept certain risks when a situation requires. For me an example is a shoulder rig during long road trips. I will practice my draws a few days in advance but I know that I need to see the threat well enough in advance to make a deliberate draw ahead of the balloon going up. Given what my lower back will do to me for 18hrs with a belt mounted gun in a car, and the low likelihood that I'll really need it, I am willing to take my chances.


I guess my bottom line is that most of us tend to over estimate our abilities. It's human nature, especially for guys. The best test for things of this type under stress I've found is competition. For those of us with access, force on force with Sims is also excellent. But until a person has drawn a gun because they need it NOW!!... I'd submit they are not going to fully appreciate the simplicity of one standardized location/draw.

[Palisut]

I carry AIWB in soft clothes, in a strong side duty holster for uniform patrol, and in a drop holster for SWAT stuff. I train all 3, but admittedly not equally (most of my training is in the drop holster followed by AIWB). I have not had a problem getting them confused under stress, but I believe that's largely because of the context provided by the clothing and equipment I'm wearing. If I have a big heavy vest with plates, I don't catch myself reaching for AIWB...if I'm in jeans and a tshirt I don't reach for a drop holster that's not there. Works for me. I do think that without those contextual reminders I'd probably mess it up.



I know a 20+ year LEO who thought he was going to need to shoot a mope and his hand went to his belt. Luckily the mope gave up as the gun was in a drop leg holster. That holster was replaced that day with a belt mounted version.


I have literally had nightmares about doing that. Unfortunately, I'm short waisted and have to use a drop holster when I wear the heavy vest. And the drop flat out sucks for patrol stuff (ever try to draw from a drop holster while seated in a car...I have...it's not fun).

[GJM]

Regardless of whether you think it is a problem, based on the average of the polls running on three forums, it is clear fifty or a greater percentage of people carrying appendix, also carry in another position. Debate isn't going to materially change that practice, because police officers who also carry appendix when concealed, aren't going to stop doing that or using duty holsters. Folks who carry appendix and shoot IDPA and USPSA Production, aren't going to give up competing. YVK will continue to use a fanny pack when he doesn't have a belt, and Jody will lounge around with his J frame, go out on date night with his pocket Kahr, and ride his dirt bike with an ALS.

So what do you do about this. I would suggest you first run a series of tests to determine what the time penalty is for going to the wrong holster. Surely, if you reach for your drop rig and then realize your pistol is appendix, do you give up or continue? Of course, it is no different than whether you get a bad grip, or a fouled shirt on a regular appendix draw -- you fix it and continue.

Start with measuring the delta in time, but then start making drills that force you to learn to quickly move your hand in response to a mistake. Or do what I do, and start the draw with a hand position common to appendix and hip carry. Train to the positions you carry, and spend your time worrying about more important things, like should you carry G2 or 124+P Gold Dot, or use the slide stop on a reload.

[rob_s]

I know a 20+ year LEO who thought he was going to need to shoot a mope and his hand went to his belt. Luckily the mope gave up as the gun was in a drop leg holster. That holster was replaced that day with a belt mounted version.

I've lost count of the number of times I've watched people fumble for drop-leg holsters, very often because they are wearing them at their knee and not their thigh. I don't know what it is about that position that causes so many people so many problems. My guess is that it's a combination of wearing it too low, and never training to draw from it at all, let alone often enough to be self-aware of the location of hte gun.

[El Cid]

I have literally had nightmares about doing that. Unfortunately, I'm short waisted and have to use a drop holster when I wear the heavy vest. And the drop flat out sucks for patrol stuff (ever try to draw from a drop holster while seated in a car...I have...it's not fun).
Yessir! Years ago our squad was given 6004's and we all thought we were sexy as hell. But we spend a lot of time in vehicles and as you mentioned, drawing like that with the muzzle pointed forward sucks something fierce! The drop leg also proved a PITA for foot chases, fence hopping, etc. We started by removing the top leg strap and hiking the holster up as high as we could. Eventually we moved to the UBL which allowed the holster to clear our tactical armor but was vertical and very close to our day to day concealable holsters.



I've lost count of the number of times I've watched people fumble for drop-leg holsters, very often because they are wearing them at their knee and not their thigh. I don't know what it is about that position that causes so many people so many problems. My guess is that it's a combination of wearing it too low, and never training to draw from it at all, let alone often enough to be self-aware of the location of hte gun.

Amen! That's part of how I decide whether a colleague is someone who is good vs. someone who thinks so. In 2008 I was at a Safe Streets Survival school in another part of the state. Some state AG investigators had drop legs at their knees with G27's. One of the instructors tried to help them but it was not getting through

[El Cid]

So what do you do about this. I would suggest you first run a series of tests to determine what the time penalty is for going to the wrong holster. Surely, if you reach for your drop rig and then realize your pistol is appendix, do you give up or continue? Of course, it is no different than whether you get a bad grip, or a fouled shirt on a regular appendix draw -- you fix it and continue.

Start with measuring the delta in time, but then start making drills that force you to learn to quickly move your hand in response to a mistake. Or do what I do, and start the draw with a hand position common to appendix and hip carry. Train to the positions you carry, and spend your time worrying about more important things, like should you carry G2 or 124+P Gold Dot, or use the slide stop on a reload.

I don't know that it's fixable. Barring a significant life event most will believe (rightly or wrongly) that they are prepared. And even if you could measure the time penalty, whether or not a person can recover from that deficit is going to be very different in every situation. We are also really looking at startle or emergency draws/responses. Ideally we will recognize the threat in enough time to get the gun out slowly and discreetly. I think I read somewhere that Evan Marshall was in 11 shootings and his gun was already in his hand for 10 of them.

It's like I mentioned with my use of a shoulder rig. I could get caught by surprise and reach for my belt instead of the gun. That delay could be very costly and I accept it under those specific circumstances. In my mind an error like that on my part is mitigated by my environment (in a vehicle except for refilling gas and coffee) where the vehicle buys me a reactionary gap and affords some protection. It's also a handy weapon in its own right.

Life is about managing and mitigating risk. As long as a people know their system works - press on. But in my experience most don't push/test themselves to really know for sure. Unfortunately we don't always get to choose how and when that test takes place. Sometimes it's on the range. Sometimes on the street. I don't like relying on luck to get me home.

[AtomicToaster]

Not being exactly a hard-wired operator type, my opinion ain't worth much, but here it is anyway:

I carry AIWB exclusively except for competition. My OH-KITTEN-I-NEED-MY-PISTOL-RIGHT-NOW holster position is always AIWB. My hear-the-beep-now-kindly-shoot-all-the-cardboard holster position is 9 o'clock OWB. In that situation, I don't see a problem with multiple holster positions.

For someone whose life-saving pistol changes holster positions frequently, the case may be different.

[LSP552]

I use different holsters (IWB and OWB) but they are all carried in the same 3:30 location. The only exception are my pocket and ankle guns, which are speciality things.

By using different hoisters, carried in the same location, I add versatility for dress and environment without the can't remember where my gun is under stress thingy.

[JodyH]

The more I learn about real life criminal assaults on civilians, the less I worry about pure reactionary speed from the holster.
Very rarely (if ever) is a civilian defensive handgun presentation a pure reactionary event (unlike say a LEO who's first inkling of a fight is getting shot in the vest).
For example, watching ECQC evolutions you'll see far more problems caused by poor timing decisions than you will fumbling with gun location (despite the fact that most people just stuff the T gun down their pants sans holster).
Watching a few dozen surveillance cam videos of muggings, assaults, robberies etc. will show you that reactionary draw speed is just not a big deal.

[ToddG]

For example, watching ECQC evolutions you'll see far more problems caused by poor timing decisions than you will fumbling with gun location ...

Misses the point, I think. The faster your draw, the more time you have to make up for an error in identifying a threat, etc. The better your SA and understanding of how to respond to pre-fight cues, the less time (or likelihood) you'll need to draw the weapon fast. Ideally, one would think, you'd want to be as best you can at both.


Watching a few dozen surveillance cam videos of muggings, assaults, robberies etc. will show you that reactionary draw speed is just not a big deal.

A few dozen surveillance vids of armed defenders? Otherwise I'm not sure how predictive they can be of what would have happened vis-à-vis armed response.

Right now, due to my arm, my best draw speed to an 8" target at 7yd is about four seconds whereas it used to be under 1. I can tell you without question that has an impact on what I can and can't do under a variety of what-if scenarios.

[Surf]

For myself, most of my adult life I have been carrying from more than one position out of necessity of the job, therefore I have never thought of it as odd to have an open and a concealed mode of carry which have always coexisted. I will admit that I have had various positions from concealment throughout the years. I actually carried appendix in the early 90's with a revolver then went to a hip carry and returned to appendix a few years back, which is my most current and frequent concealed position. I do however always understand the importance of practicing the different positions to the level of competence that I feel is necessary. So again, multiple carry positions has just been the norm and the time to train has also been the norm, at least for myself. I don't for a minute think that there are those who don't bother to practice anywhere near as much as they should as that is what normally is the case. Those on this forum are an exception to the rule with most weapons handling.

My current carry positions would be....
- Open carry on hip. This remains constant but I do at times train with a holster set up that places my support side as my primary side (I like to train support as primary from time to time).
- Concealed, AIWB. Causal attire
- Concealed, hip carry. More formal or tucked shirt with cover jacket
- Concealed, man bag. Beach attire (yes, I really do surf)

So I essentially have 4 variations of how I may carry a handgun. I do practice from the various modes of carry and from those who might recall my video content I showed all of them often except beach attire carry. ;)

Practice or training is really a hard thing to nail down as some people may have the time and resources to practice way more than others, therefore time and resources are always a factor in how well we perform or how we should or should not be doing something. If you have the time and resources to do more, you can still be much more efficient in multiple positions than others who may only carry in one mode that have less time to practice their one mode of carry vs someone else who has the time to practice multiple modes. Might anyone be better if they only carried a single position even if they have tons of practice time? Yes, but at some point in skill level, the returns on investment diminish anyway and you start getting into hair splitting, so adding another mode of carry is just like adding another skill no matter what it is.

For myself, I think my situational awareness is good and my thought process in a critical incident goes at a quick pace, but that thought process does not seem to out think my reactive process on where the weapon is located. By this I mean that by the time the hair on the back of my neck is raised to the time that I have decided that the weapon needs to come out, I have already processed where it is being carried and drawn from and I have not been able to locate a measurable difference in reaction. Of course some modes of carry are faster than others, but I don't feel the process has slowed down to the point where I consciously need to think "OK, my gun needs to be drawn", to "where am I carrying it", to "ok, I got it out". The "where am I carrying it" process seems automatic or determined concurrently in my threat assessment phase, so by the time I actually draw the weapon, I already know where to draw from. If this makes sense.

I will edit this post to add, that when I put on a weapon I generally do a few draw repetitions before going out the door no matter the weapon placement. This even includes standard open hip carry.

[JodyH]

Misses the point, I think. The faster your draw, the more time you have to make up for an error in identifying a threat, etc. The better your SA and understanding of how to respond to pre-fight cues, the less time (or likelihood) you'll need to draw the weapon fast. Ideally, one would think, you'd want to be as best you can at both.

A few dozen surveillance vids of armed defenders? Otherwise I'm not sure how predictive they can be of what would have happened vis-à-vis armed response.

Right now, due to my arm, my best draw speed to an 8" target at 7yd is about four seconds whereas it used to be under 1. I can tell you without question that has an impact on what I can and can't do under a variety of what-if scenarios.
Not missing the point at all.
Reactionary draw speed is not the same as draw speed.

Yes, armed defenders.
Brazilian on and off duty cop videos are really interesting to watch.
In Brazil you have a much more violent criminal culture and they bad guys often start the robbery off by shooting at their intended victims, absolute worst case scenario of reactionary shooting and the off duty cops rack up the dead criminals.
Most of the off duty cops are also carrying AIWB and when you see their on duty gear it's pretty much always Level 3 drop leg.
Worst case scenario reactionary shooting combined with carrying in very different holster types and locations and it doesn't seem to make that much difference in the outcome of the shootings.

[JodyH]

but that thought process does not seem to out think my reactive process on where the weapon is located. By this I mean that by the time the hair on the back of my neck is raised to the time that I have decided that the weapon needs to come out, I have already processed where it is being carried and drawn from and I have not been able to locate a measurable difference in reaction. Of course some modes of carry are faster than others, but I don't feel the process has slowed down to the point where I consciously need to think "OK, my gun needs to be drawn", to "where am I carrying it", to "ok, I got it out". The "where am I carrying it" process seems automatic or determined concurrently in my threat assessment phase, so by the time I actually draw the weapon, I already know where to draw from. If this makes sense.
Makes sense and I agree completely.

[JustOneGun]

For those that are 100% AIWB, do you never have dress situations that would result in an open cover garment? Staying buttoned up or using a vest are options there of course.

Do you ever need deep concealment like Smart Carry and if you do use that, are you drilling that with equivalent reps?

GJMs remarks about the nuances of the cover garment don't get near the play of holster type but that can really influence a clean draw from either.

Tom Given's reasoning for all IWB 3:30 is pretty strong. That'll work for just about every dress situation.

Does it rise to derp if one can ONLY carry one way and can ONLY wear one style of cover garment that is made on just ONE type of fabric? ;)

I use a tuck holster. Works well for me. I can actually carry a pistol with less printing that way. I am experimenting with tucking all my shirts from t-shirt to dress shirt. I found that in winter I can just leave the jacket or coat unzipped and when I pull the shirt free the coat just spreads out of the way. I still need to do a lot more experimenting though. An odd thing about tucking the shirt is that grasping the shirt seems to be consistent no matter the type of shirt.

Only drawback on tucking is the shirt is not bloused military style but left college professor frumpy.

[JustOneGun]

Not missing the point at all.
Reactionary draw speed is not the same as draw speed.

Yes, armed defenders.
Brazilian on and off duty cop videos are really interesting to watch.
In Brazil you have a much more violent criminal culture and they bad guys often start the robbery off by shooting at their intended victims, absolute worst case scenario of reactionary shooting and the off duty cops rack up the dead criminals.
Most of the off duty cops are also carrying AIWB and when you see their on duty gear it's pretty much always Level 3 drop leg.
Worst case scenario reactionary shooting combined with carrying in very different holster types and locations and it doesn't seem to make that much difference in the outcome of the shootings.

There is training for when we will say, that's the mental trigger now draw and shoot. Once that mental decision happens I'm not sure how being slower at a draw is a good thing or okay or doesn't matter. Can you elaborate one your idea?

I understand that we also should be training for when to draw but feel they are two separate training needs. One doesn't negate the other.

[SLG]

Those Brazilian videos that JodyH mentioned are very interesting, but I have yet to see a gun in one of them:-)

In all seriousness, they are an excellent resource, imho.

[Trajan]

Two weeks ago in IDPA I went for an AIWB reload that wasn't there. I kept the mags in my back left pocket. When I used to carry a reload, it was always AIWB. Now a days I carry a clinch pick there. I did not attempt to put the CP in my Glock.

EDIT: It's an IDPA match that generally follows the IDPA rules, but allows AIWB (of which I'm the only one who does it).

[JodyH]

There is training for when we will say, that's the mental trigger now draw and shoot. Once that mental decision happens I'm not sure how being slower at a draw is a good thing or okay or doesn't matter. Can you elaborate one your idea?
I'm NOT talking about straight up draw speed.
Draw speed and first hit accuracy are extremely important when it comes to winning the gunfight.

What I'm talking about is pure reactionary draw speed where you're given an immediate stimulus to draw and shoot with zero pre-planning which means you're forced to be 100% on auto-pilot from the start. A situation that develops so fast that you have zero time to even think about where you're carrying your handgun.
Those just don't happen in civilian situations, law enforcement is a whole other animal where ambush shootings are a very real concern.

[Patrick Taylor]

My carry position is the 3:30/4:00 carry. Not saying this is right and I did try appendix for a while but have never changed day to day.

[MDS]

I'm NOT talking about straight up draw speed.
Draw speed and first hit accuracy are extremely important when it comes to winning the gunfight.

What I'm talking about is pure reactionary draw speed where you're given an immediate stimulus to draw and shoot with zero pre-planning which means you're forced to be 100% on auto-pilot from the start. A situation that develops so fast that you have zero time to even think about where you're carrying your handgun.
Those just don't happen in civilian situations, law enforcement is a whole other animal where ambush shootings are a very real concern.

I used to think this way, but after my own snatch-and-grab incident, and at least one video of a snatch-and-grab where an accomplice showed his gun to the victim to keep the victim from pursuing, I do think a civilian has a reasonable chance of needing to get his pistol out PDQ...

[ToddG]

I used to think this way, but after my own snatch-and-grab incident, and at least one video of a snatch-and-grab where an accomplice showed his gun to the victim to keep the victim from pursuing, I do think a civilian has a reasonable chance of needing to get his pistol out PDQ...

Agreed. People always want to talk about extremes of the spectrum: I'll never need it vs I'll always need it. It's a false dichotomy.

[JustOneGun]

I'm NOT talking about straight up draw speed.
Draw speed and first hit accuracy are extremely important when it comes to winning the gunfight.

What I'm talking about is pure reactionary draw speed where you're given an immediate stimulus to draw and shoot with zero pre-planning which means you're forced to be 100% on auto-pilot from the start. A situation that develops so fast that you have zero time to even think about where you're carrying your handgun.
Those just don't happen in civilian situations, law enforcement is a whole other animal where ambush shootings are a very real concern.

Sorry for the late reply as I was traveling. I think I totally misunderstood your first post. Sorry about that. It seems we agree.

We all think we can think about when and where the gun is going to be but it just doesn't work out that way in most instances. Even when you actually have time in real world instances our minds often override that thought process and do what is programmed. We don't actually get to decide when we have time to think about it, our mind just does it.

Edit: I just reread the post and it seems we don't agree at all. Are you saying a person can consistently draw a holster from two different places without screwing up?

I can tell you personally I can't. From time to time when my mind would go on auto pilot I would draw the phantom gun. So for me the conversation was over. As an instructor I can tell you that I've seen that happen over and over again on a square range with mild stress to a large percentage of the police population. Everyone from SWAT officers to recruits. I can't see how a life or death situation will not cause it to happen more often. I won't suggest it will happen every time but I will suggest that individual shooters are not in control of when it happens.