IWI Tavor

[Sean O]

Received my Tavor today. Initial impressions are decent, I won't rehash too much here. Unboxing/ disassembly etc are all over the internet if you are curious about any of it. Couple neat things I have noticed so far in just handling/ reading:

1: The rifle now comes with a Pmag instead of those silly rebranded CAA magazines. Nice.
2: The safety is a little mushy placing it on fire, but clicks nicely on safe.
3: Trigger is heavy (about 12lb). I will run it factory for at least a few hundred rounds before I decide on upgrading (Geissele).
3: I like the controls quite a bit in theory, be interesting to see if this holds up in the real world.
4: There doesn't seem to be a good way to lock the bolt open manually. You can do it, but it is very awkward. I'm assuming any double feed problems will make me resort to ripping th magazine out without locking the bolt.
5: According to the manual, which is pretty freaking detailed, a 50yd zero is on at 250yd. Im guessing the added height over bore accounts for the extra 50 yards compared to an AR. The manual did not specify a specific load/weight.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8654/15367242563_6d87540de8.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ppX8PZ)

The BCM above is an 11.5" and weighs 6lbs 10oz as shown. The Tavor without optic is 7lbs 14.5oz

BCM is actually a hair longer with the stock fully collapsed:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7551/15367241983_52c3da15d1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ppX8DZ)

As Neyti has pointed out many times in the AUG thread, once the gun is shouldered the weight disappears. Pretty neat.

The Vortex 1-4 is just a placeholder until the Aimpoint Pro shows up. I also need to decide on a light. I will get some shooting in tomorrow and if anything pops up or is interesting I will report back.


Does Santa come at the begining or end of Hanukah?

Apparently he comes one week early!!!! Thanks Santa!!!!

[gtmtnbiker98]

How do you like that Vortex Viper?

[Sean O]

It's okay. I think for the money it is decent. The glass is fine, the reticle..... meh. Overall I'm content with it, but not impressed.


How do you like that Vortex Viper?

[Mike C]

Sean O,

I'd take a look at your trigger pack. If yours has the assist spring for trigger reset you can try removing that to reduce your trigger weight. I had a Tavor for a while and removed my spring. It made an enormous difference in pull weight and significantly changed the way the trigger felt. It is a simple procedure and takes all of two minutes. It is easily replaced if you decide you want to sell it or would like to keep it stock.

If you need more info I believe there is a post on the bullpup forum about it. Hope you enjoy.

[Sean O]

Thanks Mike C. I watched a video on that, but I am a big believer in running a gun stock for awhile first to make sure it functions properly. I plan to do the spring mod before I order the Geissele, so I can compare it directly. I do not like the fact that some report a failure to reset issues after removing the spring though. Did yours have this problem?

[Clusterfrack]

Yes, removing the optional return spring does make a noticeable difference. It took mine down to 9 lbs. I didn't notice any reliability issues, but admittedly didn't test it that hard. After swapping in the Geissle trigger pack, the pull is 5.5 lbs, with a much improved feel.

[Mike C]

Sean O,

I have to admit that I only put about 2500 rounds through my 18B model before I sold it off. Only about 950-1k of the total round count was without the assist spring. During that time I never cleaned it nor did I have any malfunctions of any kind but the gun wasn't really pushed hard. My understanding is that the assist spring came up after IDF had issues in dusty environments. Personally don't think it would be an issue in most places here in the states but I would certainly put a couple thousand rounds through the gun and vet it without the spring before leaving it that way or relying upon it.

I agree with you about running it stock for a while, and then giving it a shake without the spring as you've decided and go from there. Let us know how it goes.

[Sean O]

About 150 rounds through the gun today. I took the Vortex off and just used the factory irons. I had a lot of fun running this gun. The few standouts:

1: I honestly do not mind the trigger. That is easy to say for now, since I only went out to 25 yards (pistol bay). Honestly I thought it would be hell, since that's what everyone says. Running a couple bill drills returned splits of .16 -.17 seconds. It will be interesting to see accuracy at longer ranges though, that could be the decider.
2: The 40 round P-mag is awesome in this rifle. I did not care for the length of it in an AR for some reason, but with the mag so close to the body the added length doesn't seem to make a difference here.
3: Colt 20 rounders function fine, but are extremely tight in the rifle. Aluminum GI mags, gen 2 and gen 3 P-mags and a Surefire 60 all worked perfect.
4: After about 40 rounds of 25 yard shooting testing different magazines and function and another 18 rounds for bill drills, I concentrated on manipulation drills to try to familiarize myself to the rifle:
... a) Reloads averaged about 3 seconds from the tactical back pocket spare mag pouch. If I really gamed it, I could do 2 seconds flat without a problem.
... b) Tac reloads are easy if you use the back of your strong hand thumb to release the seated mag.
... c) Working tap-rack malf drills was interesting. The magazine is seated so far back that one time I tapped the pistol grip as if I was running my Glock. Damn you muscle memory!!
... d) This gun take A LOT more effort to work the charging handle compared to an AR. Not to a point were it is unbearable, but noticeable.

I will have the Aimpoint on the way soon. I'm really liking this rifle the more I play with it. I honestly keep giggling like a 6yo kid with a secret every time I pick it up. Everything Neyti mentioned in the AUG thread (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14062-Let-s-talk-about-the-AUG) is making sense and hitting home, and hitting HARD.

[HCM]

Ukrainian Special Forces using a license built Tavors in Eastern Ukraine

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/12/11/potd-tavors-ukraine/

[breakingtime91]

Good link HCM. It would be interesting to read some of their after action reports... Anyone know how the Israelis liked their tavors in the last gaza fight?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

They're popular here as they've been available for a few years and are non-restricted, which means that you don't have to take them to a range to shoot them.

But literally every single person I know who's run one in 3-gun, for example, ended up going back to an AR to be competitive. I find them manageable but not ideal. I don't like the sight offset and up here, you're changing mags all the time.

But this is the first time someone whose opinion I actually cared about has given one a serious go, so I'm interested to see where this goes.

[Sean O]

Another 100 rounds today. I'm really liking this thing, but it still has a long way to go to replace an AR. Most drills were again focused on manipulation, and the more I manipulate this rifle the more I appreciate the ergonomics and controls. Reloads from the belt (Concealed, JM mag pouch) ran 2-2.3 without pushing speed. It's just easy.

I think I have found the best way to use a sling (for me). The sling is a padded Vickers, with one QD attached to the rear-right and one on the front-left. This seems to hold the gun well, doesn't get in the way when I manipulate it and I can transition shoulder if I choose without even loosening the sling. For those here that have much more experience with long guns, what do you think of this?

I apologize in advanced for the bad photos and turtle waxed dome.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7474/15828260968_28f4e35c61.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/q7FYxb)
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8654/16013712471_3387140d15.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qp5sNT)
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7560/16014981272_35ce2870f9.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qpbXYL)
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7575/15828260028_ce075aaf83.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/q7FYfY)

[Clusterfrack]

...I think I have found the best way to use a sling (for me). The sling is a padded Vickers, with one QD attached to the rear-right and one on the front-left. This seems to hold the gun well, doesn't get in the way when I manipulate it and I can transition shoulder if I choose without even loosening the sling. For those here that have much more experience with long guns, what do you think of this?


I make no claims about relative long gun experience, but this is the way I run my Tavor, and my ARs. I like my Tavor even better after adding a MI extended hand guard and VFH.

[Sean O]

After some shooting and a lot of dry fire I have some more thoughts about this rifle. I will be taking a Pannone carbine class in April, so that will be the real test. In the meantime I will attempt to continue to refine techniques and rifle setup. Here are some thoughts so far:

Layout:

This is my current layout. For now I will be sticking with it as I am liking how slick it feels. Optic is an Aimpoint PRO, I just flipped which side the torque knob is on to help make sure my knuckles don’t hit it when working the charging handle aggressively. I do need a set of backup sights, and will likely order some MBUS pros or Troy battlesights. I’m leaning toward the MBUS pro mostly because I really like how low their profile is.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7534/16113858811_108c2364f2.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qxVJPV)

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8643/15930023337_af69dafa4e.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qgFwWM)

So far the X300U is easy to reach and convenient for me. So much so I just took the 45 degree rail off the rifle. It surprised me how much better the rifle felt with the rail off. If the Surefire does not cut it for some reason, I will likely get one of the integrated forearms and a pressure switch. I like how slick that type of setup is, but am wondering how the light will hold up to the heat of a suppressor. There is also something about pressure switches that does not give me the warm and fuzzies. That feeling is based on absolutely zero real world tactical operator ninja experience though.

Reaching the light:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7576/15496069143_e135f3ce29.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pBkptV)

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8573/15928474310_8e453627fe.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qgxAtq)

[Sean O]

Bolt lock reloads:

There are two main options technique wise to release the magazine in the weapon. You can use your off hand index finger to press the release as you strip the magazine out (you don't have to strip it since the magazine will drop free, but I feel it costs no extra time if using the offhand to hit the release anyways). The other option is to use the back of your strong hand thumb (close to the wrist).

Strip:
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8673/15928347178_4027585c26.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qgwWFu)

Back of the hand:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7537/15928346888_af323549c1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qgwWAu)

Using your off hand is extremely positive and seems to be fairly natural with the control layouts and I don't see it as a negative to strip the magazine. It is still easy to perform quick reloads by using this method.

If max speed is the goal, using the back of the strong thumb is the way to go. Bumping the release will allow the magazine in the rifle to drop free while you grab your spare mag. One of the potential problems I foresee with this method is the back of the rifle needs to be braced against something for this to work, since the control of the weapon for that slit second completely relies on pulling the rifle into you. Time will tell I guess. In the meantime I will be working both methods.

Inserting a new mag is not too bad although at times I do miss the magwell of even a basic AR, although some of it has to do with being able to easily see into the magwell thanks to its location. After a good push/pull of the magazine I hit the bolt release with the back of my offhand thumb. It is as simple as just rolling your thumb up into the large release, no need to extend my thumb vertically like I would for an AR.

Mag in:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7566/15493496774_da01dcd913.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pB7dNJ)

Roll the hand up to release bolt:
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8582/16089981886_86c8b91226.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qvPn3N)

Thumb vertical, which I don’t do:
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7512/15930021607_4e75383eb7.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qgFwqX)

Overall I find the reloads coming very natural and easy. With the exception of the magwell, I am finding that I very slightly prefer the Tavor layout over the AR when performing a reloads.


Trigger:

I still really do not mind the trigger. That being said, I am curious to see what type of potential gains might be had from something nicer. I plan to shoot three positions- standing, kneeling and prone. Basically I am going to shamelessly copy this test (http://artoftherifleblog.com/position-analysis-summary/2014/10/position-analysis-summary.html). If you like rifle stuff I think that is a fantastic blog to follow.

Anyways, basically in each position I will shoot 10 rounds slow, 10 rounds timed and 10 rounds timed+exerted all at 50 yards (my zero). Then I will remove the extra trigger spring, which should make the pull weight about 4lbs lighter than it is now. If there is a significant improvement, I may spring for a Geissele trigger after all. I will report back when I’m done.

[GJM]

My wife is left handed and I am right. Not infrequently, we share a long gun.

Is the Tavor ambi enough, that if set up for a righty, she can use it without the AUG ejection issue?

Which exact model Tavor is preferred -- looks like there are a number of models?

[Andy T]

GJM,
If you are looking for a truly ambidextrous bull pup, have you considered FS2000?

[abu fitna]

So far the X300U is easy to reach and convenient for me. So much so I just took the 45 degree rail off the rifle. It surprised me how much better the rifle felt with the rail off. If the Surefire does not cut it for some reason, I will likely get one of the integrated forearms and a pressure switch. I like how slick that type of setup is, but am wondering how the light will hold up to the heat of a suppressor. There is also something about pressure switches that does not give me the warm and fuzzies. That feeling is based on absolutely zero real world tactical operator ninja experience though.



I can't speak to ninja anything, but a few years back now I was one of a few folks involved in testing a new light offering from a tactical products manufacturer seeking to expand their offerings into the illumination segment. The light had optional pressure switch endcap. Took it out for OPFOR activity I was involved in at the time, and ran it on an AK for a while in the 0300 position, just aft of the muzzle by a few inches, with the switch a bit further back along the lower rail. Ran into light NDs caused by the switch overheating, expanding, and triggering the light; at one point to a constant ON mode that only was remedied when the damn thing cooled down.

Similar issues were encountered by other folks running them on short barreled ARs.

Feedback was provided to the manufacturer of that particular product. Not sure if it was ever remedied... though they did bring the light to the market. Thus always caveat emptor.

[GJM]

GJM,
If you are looking for a truly ambidextrous bull pup, have you considered FS2000?

What I would really prefer is using an AR in .300 BLK with a 9ish inch barrel, that my left hand wife can also shoot. Oh, and it shouldn't need paperwork to wander around the west. Would rather not have another system.

Since that may not be possible, I just bought an AUG since after owning one 20 years, their manual of operation is known.

[JM Campbell]

Tavor is working on a 300blk conversion from what I've seen on the net.

[YVK]

I just bought an AUG

You should hang out with nyeti a bit more, you'll be shooting an LEM in competition soon.

[GJM]

You should hang out with nyeti a bit more, you'll be shooting an LEM in competition soon.

Limited 10 and LEM for the win!

[Sean O]

My wife is left handed and I am right. Not infrequently, we share a long gun.

Is the Tavor ambi enough, that if set up for a righty, she can use it without the AUG ejection issue?

Which exact model Tavor is preferred -- looks like there are a number of models?

From what I have seen with mine, as long as you are using hotter ammo she would be able to shoot it just fine. That being said, I still don't quite understand people claiming how ambi this thing is. Well, compared to an AR with an ambi charging handle anyways. Galloway Precision makes a slightly extended (http://www.bullpuparmory.com/product_p/gp-1605.htm) shell deflector that should make it compatible for her no matter what ammo is used.

As far as model, just the standard 16.5" seems like the best choice for most people by far. B16/FD16/G16, the letters are just in relation to which color.


GJM,
If you are looking for a truly ambidextrous bull pup, have you considered FS2000?

Couple things that never made me bite on those:

1- No direct access to the chamber in case of a malfunction
2- GI mags only. While I have no problem with GI mags, I have mostly P-mags for our rifles. I did not like the idea that the only type of AR mag that worked was what I did not have many of.


abu fitna- Thanks for the input, I appreciate it!!

[Sean O]

Another update on the trigger-

After around 600 rounds through the gun, the factory trigger has smoothed out and lightened up a good amount. Before it would break just over 12lbs, and now the average pull was 10lbs 0.5 oz.

I did get to put a few rounds through another Tavor that had the Shooting Sight Tav-D trigger (http://shop.shootingsight.com/TAVOR_c19.htm). Definitely lighter but I don't think it will be worth the money for me. I will still go forward with my trigger test and decide if I want to give the Geissele trigger a go. I have read that these triggers are similar, but appreciate the track record Geissele has for reliability, so that is who will get my money if I decide to upgrade.

Speaking of the factory trigger, while I don't mind mine at all, I absolutely get annoyed reading " IT SHOULD BE HEAVY IT'S A COMBAT TRIGGER!!!!!!" from people who have obviously never been in combat.
/rant

[Sean O]

Finally got around to the trigger test I have been wanting to do. The process was simplified due to time restrains. The process went like this:

1: 10 standing un-timed
2: 10 standing timed (15 sec)
3: 10 prone un-timed
4: 10 prone timed (15 sec)

I repeated the test with the extra trigger spring removed and with my trusty BCM. Ammo was XM193. The trigger weights for this test were:

Tavor:________10lbs .5oz
Tavor (- spring): 7lbs 6oz
BCM:_________5lbs 13oz

Standing un-timed: Tavor/Tavor (-spring)/BCM
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7549/16200002062_3e03aa3719.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qFxfdo)
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7554/16174973826_5af27ffe87.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qDjYc5)
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7540/16198943431_9718e73f77.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qFrPw8)

[Sean O]

Standing timed: Tavor/Tavor (-spring)/BCM
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8566/15581007583_be823aaafd.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pJQJHM)
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7570/16174973286_fdeba2a9a3.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qDjY2L)
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8601/15578412274_ac9096043f.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pJBre5)

Prone un-timed: Tavor/Tavor (-spring)/BCM
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7544/16013481160_5de6558cd3.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qp4h3L)
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8655/15578413024_cf4d2d5a7b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pJBrs1)
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7512/15581003353_290ab32b0a.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/pJQHsR)

[Sean O]

Prone timed: Tavor/Tavor (-spring)/BCM
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8672/16198946121_7a46ce4958.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qFrQjv)
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7517/16174972346_88418bcd6e.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qDjXKy)
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8646/16175051736_7b9bd9a8be.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qDknmm)

I am thinking I will not bother changing out the trigger, at least for now. I feel like my rifle skills are on the low end, and $300 for a trigger is another 1,000 rounds of practice. I’m sure that will serve me much better at this point. I will post some thoughts about how the rifle handled compared to the AR in a couple of days. I might be getting my hands on a AUG soon to compare the two as well.

[Alpha Sierra]

Maybe I missed it but at what distance was the test done?

[Sean O]

Thanks for catching that! The test done at 50 yards.
2956

[Sean O]

About 1,000 rounds through the Tavor now, and the rifle is still growing on me. I was able to shoot it side by side with a A3 AUG for about an hour. I do not have any hard data as far as times, but a couple subjective things:

- The balance is noticeably different. The AUG has a nice neutrality about it, while the Tavor is slightly heavier in the rear. While shouldered I prefer the balance of the Tavor, although I would assume that is partly because of experience with it. While off the shoulder, the AUG’s balance is a welcomed change.

- Mag changes are easier with the Tavor, but not really a huge enough difference to matter to most.

- One problem with the Tavor having the large bolt catch is if you let your rifle hang it doesn't take much of a bump to close the bolt. The AUG A3’s bolt catch is much lower profile but still enables quick reloads.

- The rifle weight is pretty much a tie, but side by side the Tavor feels bulky and the AUG feels slick. Running some simple drills however make me appreciate the Tavor’s layout. I figure that is likely due to the extra time I have behind the rifle and nothing more.

- Doing some malfunction drills again showed that both rifles have their pros and cons. I prefer the angle of the Tavor’s charging handle, it seems much less likely I will bust my knuckles while running it. Where the AUG wins outright for me is the fact that you can lock the charging handle to the rear, which I did when trying to work through double feeds. It would have been neat if they added that notch on the Tavor, but I’m sure there is a reason it isn't there.

Overall I am happy with the Tavor, but do not think it is in any way superior to an AUG for my potential uses. For those of you looking at your first bullpup, I do not think you can go wrong with either one.

[Clusterfrack]

Yesterday I shot my Tavor at a local multigun match. It was the first time I've used it in competition, and I was curious about how it would compare to my ARs. I took 4th overall, and placed 1st on one rifle-heavy stage by a significant margin. While I probably would have done better with my 11.5" AR "gamer gun" just because of all the experience I have with the AR, I was very pleased with how the Tavor performed. It's a viable platform for competition. Here's my setup:

Geissele trigger pack
MI extended handguard
Magpul keymod VFG
MI ejection port cover
Manticore butt plate
SF Mini suppressor
EOTech EXPS3-2

[gtmtnbiker98]

I joined the Tavor club last week, just got it zeroed. I really like the rifle so far.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd254/gtmtnbiker98/image.jpg1_zpsl2ghm1ch.jpg