6.8 SPC vs 5.56

[witchking777]

I currently carry 5.56 GMX TAP in my 16" AR15,was curious if switching my barrel,bolt,and mags to 6.8 and buying a cheap 556 upper for plinking would be worth it. The round I'm looking forward to is. Hornady's Full Boar 100 grain GMX,this seems to be the cat's meow in 6.8,high B.C.,high velocity,and probably excellent terminal/barrier performance,any input is appreciated.

[littlejerry]

What do you want to do with it?

[Crews]

I found the 6.8 was most excellent for hunting with (as far as AR15's go, at least.)

[ranger]

I just built a 16 inch 6.8 AR for an all around carbine but also for hunting deer and hogs. I have multiple ARs and was pleasantly surprised about how the 6.8 shoot compared to 5.56/223

[DocGKR]

6.8 mm is like a modern .30-30; it allows the AR15 to successfully harvest all game in the lower 48 states at ranges out to 300 or so.

It also brings terminal performance and intermediate barrier capability of the AR15 to near AR10 levels for defensive encounters...

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Doc, you're probably the most accredited voice on the subject of which I'm aware; do you have any current hardware recommendations as far as uppers and mags?

I mean I'm assuming the usual suspects on uppers, but I know nothing about 6.8 mags.

[DocGKR]

With traditional AR15 lowers, we had good results with Barrett and PRI 6.8 mm magazines.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Thank you.

[Alpha Sierra]

Not sure what the point of the 6.8SPC is when the 6.5 Grendel is available. Whatever the 6.8 can do the 6.5 can do better by orders of magnitude.

[Rich]

6.8 mm is like a modern .30-30; it allows the AR15 to successfully harvest all game in the lower 48 states at ranges out to 300 or so.

It also brings terminal performance and intermediate barrier capability of the AR15 to near AR10 levels for defensive encounters...

Agree


I have read about Inuit who used a 222rem bolt action to take down polar bears. I bought a Savage 222rem when I was in high school its was more accurate than my rem 700 in 30 06 and 223

[LittleLebowski]

I currently carry 5.56 GMX TAP in my 16" AR15,was curious if switching my barrel,bolt,and mags to 6.8 and buying a cheap 556 upper for plinking would be worth it. The round I'm looking forward to is. Hornady's Full Boar 100 grain GMX,this seems to be the cat's meow in 6.8,high B.C.,high velocity,and probably excellent terminal/barrier performance,any input is appreciated.

Out of curiosity, what are you using the 6.8 for other than home defense?

[Rich]

With traditional AR15 lowers, we had good results with Barrett and PRI 6.8 mm magazines.


I never understood why no one offers 14.5 barrels in 6.8mm ? Mainly 16.1+FH and sbr barrels that are under 14.5inches

[stingray]

6.8 mm is like a modern .30-30; it allows the AR15 to successfully harvest all game in the lower 48 states at ranges out to 300 or so.

It also brings terminal performance and intermediate barrier capability of the AR15 to near AR10 levels for defensive encounters...

With the exception of moose. Or at least I am not willing to hunt moose with a .30-30 or its equivalent.

[rudy99]

Not sure what the point of the 6.8SPC is when the 6.5 Grendel is available. Whatever the 6.8 can do the 6.5 can do better by orders of magnitude.

I don't think 6.5G has anywhere near the market support that 6.8SPC or 300BLK has, not to mention ammo availability. Sure you can find the stuff, but options are much more limited than they are with the two other options. Given 6.5G's high BC it is a shame, but also a reality.

[j.d.allen]

6.8 mm is like a modern .30-30; it allows the AR15 to successfully harvest all game in the lower 48 states at ranges out to 300 or so.

It also brings terminal performance and intermediate barrier capability of the AR15 to near AR10 levels for defensive encounters...

Wow. With the versatility of the 6.8 SPC, is there any reason to have a rifle chambered in 5.56? Ammo availability perhaps? Serious question.

[Alpha Sierra]

I don't think 6.5G has anywhere near the market support that 6.8SPC or 300BLK has, not to mention ammo availability. Sure you can find the stuff, but options are much more limited than they are with the two other options. Given 6.5G's high BC it is a shame, but also a reality.

It has plenty of market support. One does not need fifty ammo options or thirty magazine vendors.

The 300BLK is a non starter, as its reasons for being are not important to me. The 6.8's ballistics are weak.

[Up1911Fan]

Anyone have any experience with the 6.8 through a 12.5" barrel?

[rob_s]

It has plenty of market support. One does not need fifty ammo options or thirty magazine vendors.


That is largely dependent on the individual, and not a general, blanket statement.

Although why people have so much wrapped up in telling others which 6.x round to pick is beyond me.

[witchking777]

Out of curiosity, what are you using the 6.8 for other than home defense?

Possibly deer hunting,I like the idea of enhanced barrier performance without the recoil and round reduction of .308

[witchking777]

6.8 mm is like a modern .30-30; it allows the AR15 to successfully harvest all game in the lower 48 states at ranges out to 300 or so.

It also brings terminal performance and intermediate barrier capability of the AR15 to near AR10 levels for defensive encounters...
Thanks Doc that's the idea I had

[oldtexan]

Wow. With the versatility of the 6.8 SPC, is there any reason to have a rifle chambered in 5.56? Ammo availability perhaps? Serious question.

Certainly Doc is right about the superior terminal performance and intermediate barrier capability of the 6.8.

On the other hand, the .223/5.56mm's advantages include better ammo availability, lower ammo cost(lowest cost factory 6.8mm ammo is about two to three times the price of lowest cost .223/5.56mm factory ammo), greater availability of firearms chambered for it, greater availability of 5.56mm caliber-specific AR parts(bolts and barrels), greater options in quality AR mags in .223/5.56mm(PMAGS, Lancer, GI 30 rd, NHMTG 20 rd GI, etc) than 6.8(Barrett and PRI), lower cost of 5.56mm quality mags, and lower recoil. I'd expect greater durability with a 5.56mm rifle than a 6.8mm, all other things being equal, but I have no hard data on that.

[Charlie Foxtrot]

I've got a DD 6.8 18" mid-length upper. Like it a lot.

With Hornady 110gr HPs and 4198 handloads I'm getting just a RCH under 1 MOA. I'm nowhere near finishing my development. Thinking hard about putting the upper on a Ares SCR lower and annoying some deer.

[Haraise]

Not sure what the point of the 6.8SPC is when the 6.5 Grendel is available. Whatever the 6.8 can do the 6.5 can do better by orders of magnitude.

2859

Not just order of magnitude, but ORDERS. At least a hundred times better. Possibly the strongest reaction to .3mm I've ever seen. (I much prefer the Grendel myself, though not as much as if it somehow caused 20mm PELE effects on target.)

[witchking777]

Certainly Doc is right about the superior terminal performance and intermediate barrier capability of the 6.8.

On the other hand, the .223/5.56mm's advantages include better ammo availability, lower ammo cost(lowest cost factory 6.8mm ammo is about two to three times the price of lowest cost .223/5.56mm factory ammo), greater availability of firearms chambered for it, greater availability of 5.56mm caliber-specific AR parts(bolts and barrels), greater options in quality AR mags in .223/5.56mm(PMAGS, Lancer, GI 30 rd, NHMTG 20 rd GI, etc) than 6.8(Barrett and PRI), lower cost of 5.56mm quality mags, and lower recoil. I'd expect greater durability with a 5.56mm rifle than a 6.8mm, all other things being equal, but I have no hard data on that.

Alas these reasons are exactly what went through my mind as well

[DocGKR]

"Not sure what the point of the 6.8SPC is when the 6.5 Grendel is available. Whatever the 6.8 can do the 6.5 can do better by orders of magnitude."

This is not what the JSWB-IPT, Joint FBI-USMC Ammo Study, or the CTTSO/TSWG MURG programs showed, but of course those organizations probably don't know as much as you do about the subject of combat rifles and terminal performance effects. In addition, the larger case head of the 6.5G demonstrated more bolt failures than that used in 6.8 SPC. Keep in mind that the military SPC developers initially started using a 7.62x39 mm case, but dropped it after too many bolt failures.


"The 300BLK is a non starter, as its reasons for being are not important to me."

You should tell that to the military SOF units that are using .300 BLK to great effect in combat...


"I never understood why no one offers 14.5 barrels in 6.8mm?"

Because 14.5" barrels are stupid? If I want shorter than 16", then a 12.5" barrel works well for 6.8; if I want to maximize range, then a 16" barrel is optimal in 6.8--14.5 is kind of not needed...

5.56 mm, 6.8 mm, and .300 BLK are all good calibers that emphasize different areas of performance-each works well using good ammo, each can prove effective within their operating parameters.

[ASH556]

Doc, you referred to the 6.8 as a modern .30-30. I've always thought of the supersonic 300BLK that way. Could you discuss the differences in ballistic performance between 6.8 and supersonic Blackout?

[Alpha Sierra]

This is not what the JSWB-IPT, Joint FBI-USMC Ammo Study, or the CTTSO/TSWG MURG programs showed, but of course those organizations probably don't know as much as you do about the subject of combat rifles and terminal performance effects. In addition, the larger case head of the 6.5G demonstrated more bolt failures than that used in 6.8 SPC. Keep in mind that the military SPC developers initially started using a 7.62x39 mm case, but dropped it after too many bolt failures.
Military testing favors the military-developed cartridge. Big surprise.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Could you explain what it is that makes the 6.5 so vastly superior, but in a way that military testing would not recognize?

I mean it's one thing to say "the 6.5 was just as good but the army wanted to reward their own people" but I find it hard to imagine that one is utterly BETTER, and both are publicly available so relative performance will be public knowledge...but they still went with the one that blows.

[DocGKR]

AS--You appear quite ignorant and ill-informed regarding this subject; Big Army did everything they could to kill the SF developed 6.8 mm. It took FBI (not military) involvement before the early 6.8 mm terminal test results were validated.

Neither 6.8 SPC nor 6.5G was adopted by the US military.

[Haraise]

Doc, you referred to the 6.8 as a modern .30-30. I've always thought of the supersonic 300BLK that way. Could you discuss the differences in ballistic performance between 6.8 and supersonic Blackout?

Look at the difference in energy between the .30-.30 (~1800-2000 ft lbs) and the .300 BLK (~1200-1350 ft lbs). It's not close. The 6.8, very close to .30-.30. In before 'energy isn't everything, etc etc,' but it's like comparing a .380 to a .9mm +P.

[NotAnExpert]

I never understood why no one offers 14.5 barrels in 6.8mm ? Mainly 16.1+FH and sbr barrels that are under 14.5inches
Well, LWRC does make 14.7" barreled uppers in 6.8. Not sure if you're looking for just a barrel or a complete upper/rifle.

[NotAnExpert]

Not sure what the point of the 6.8SPC is when the 6.5 Grendel is available. Whatever the 6.8 can do the 6.5 can do better by orders of magnitude.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/10/e29e6f2e26a6944bc08bcfb68b1aa209.jpg

You were saying?

[Unobtanium]

Could you explain what it is that makes the 6.5 so vastly superior, but in a way that military testing would not recognize?

I mean it's one thing to say "the 6.5 was just as good but the army wanted to reward their own people" but I find it hard to imagine that one is utterly BETTER, and both are publicly available so relative performance will be public knowledge...but they still went with the one that blows.


See: FAL vs. M14.


Also see: Magazine PiP.

Magpul's followers have been out for a while and work fine...but the military wanted their OWN follower...

The military is infamous for spending millions developing "their own thing" when superior civilian products exist and continue to be used instead of whatever crap they dream up on their own.

[Unobtanium]

AS--You appear quite ignorant and ill-informed regarding this subject; Big Army did everything they could to kill the SF developed 6.8 mm. It took FBI (not military) involvement before the early 6.8 mm terminal test results were validated.

Neither 6.8 SPC nor 6.5G was adopted by the US military.

I thought that it took the involvement (investment...) of the other country's (Jordan, etc.)that LWRC/ATK/Magpul developed weapons and ammo for to make the 6.8 a viable weapon SYSTEM?

[DocGKR]

That was the most recent public example of 6.8 mm in military/government use. There have been other less publicized deployments. Note that MURG conclusively demonstrated 6.8 mm combat system capability back in 2006.

Also keep in mind that 6.8 mm was intended as an interim and expedient upgrade to existing M4's to allow them to quickly be modified to over-match our opponents 7.62x39 mm systems back in 2001-2002. These days there are better choices available for a combat cartridge, for example AMU's new .264 USA, Cris Murray's optimized 7x46 mm, or even a cased telescoping 7 mm...

For civilian and LE use, 6.8 mm is an easy way to provide substantially better terminal performance in the AR15 FOW over the typical engagement range of a carbine.

[Tamara]

Don't you go changin (http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2007/02/boomsticks-caliber-warz.html)', crazy internets! ;)

[ranger]

I never understood why no one offers 14.5 barrels in 6.8mm ? Mainly 16.1+FH and sbr barrels that are under 14.5inches

ARP has 14.5 6.8 barrels in stock. They had 14.5 6.8 barrel on sale for Black Friday and I got one. Looking forward to the build.

[Rich]

Well, LWRC does make 14.7" barreled uppers in 6.8. Not sure if you're looking for just a barrel or a complete upper/rifle.


To be fair its been sometime since I last looked at car uppers
Thank you.

BTW are they piston driven? I know most of there uppers were at one time. I prefer DI But have heard good things about LWR asquality goes.

[Rich]

With the exception of moose. Or at least I am not willing to hunt moose with a .30-30 or its equivalent.

I wouldn't have a problem with it. I could put several rounds into it.

[CompressionIgnition]

I wouldn't have a problem with it. I could put several rounds into it.

http://www.nssf.org/safety/lit/EthicalHunter.pdf

[NotAnExpert]

To be fair its been sometime since I last looked at car uppers
Thank you.

BTW are they piston driven? I know most of there uppers were at one time. I prefer DI But have heard good things about LWR asquality goes.
Yes, both their six8 and legacy m6a2 in 6.8 are piston driven. Actually I guess they don't make any DI rifles currently.

[SLG]

I do not intend to try and refute anything that Doc has said here. These are strictly my opinions based on my personal assessment and needs.

I went with a 6.8 for all the reasons Doc has stated. In fact, he and I had talked about it quite a bit at the time. I went as high end as I thought existed at the time, and was pretty disappointed with the accuracy of the gun I ended up with. The maker told me that 6.8's tend to be the least accurate caliber they use. The terrible BC's don't help either if you want to go much past point black zero range. Obviously, other 6.8 guns will be more or less accurate, but after my expensive foray into 6.8, I didn't want to try again. I now have a 6.5 Grendel that is everything I could want. IMHO, it outperforms the 6.8 in every way that matters to ME. My 16" gun will reach past 1000 yards at least as easily as my 175 FGMM 308. Maybe easier. BC is excellent compared to 308. Terminal ballistics on game out to beyond where I am willing to shoot as well. It really is a pretty amazing gun, and ammo is cheaper than equivalent 308.

Is it as reliable as 6.8 or 300blk? I don't think so, for the reasons that Doc mentioned and more. Is it appropriate as a fighting cartridge? Not in my opinion. Again, see reliability.

As a sporting cartridge, I find it to be among the best I have ever used.

[Haraise]

I do not intend to try and refute anything that Doc has said here. These are strictly my opinions based on my personal assessment and needs.

I went with a 6.8 for all the reasons Doc has stated. In fact, he and I had talked about it quite a bit at the time. I went as high end as I thought existed at the time, and was pretty disappointed with the accuracy of the gun I ended up with. The maker told me that 6.8's tend to be the least accurate caliber they use. The terrible BC's don't help either if you want to go much past point black zero range. Obviously, other 6.8 guns will be more or less accurate, but after my expensive foray into 6.8, I didn't want to try again. I now have a 6.5 Grendel that is everything I could want. IMHO, it outperforms the 6.8 in every way that matters to ME. My 16" gun will reach past 1000 yards at least as easily as my 175 FGMM 308. Maybe easier. BC is excellent compared to 308. Terminal ballistics on game out to beyond where I am willing to shoot as well. It really is a pretty amazing gun, and ammo is cheaper than equivalent 308.

Is it as reliable as 6.8 or 300blk? I don't think so, for the reasons that Doc mentioned and more. Is it appropriate as a fighting cartridge? Not in my opinion. Again, see reliability.

As a sporting cartridge, I find it to be among the best I have ever used.

Check out the 129gr Nosler Accubond Long Range. Great BC and expands down to 1300fps. Really extends the practical range of the 6.5 Grendel.

[SLG]

H,

That does look like a good choice. I'm only shooting 123gr pills right now as I have a good supply of SST's and Amax's. Is anyone loading match grade ammo with the 129 now?

[Haraise]

H,

That does look like a good choice. I'm only shooting 123gr pills right now as I have a good supply of SST's and Amax's. Is anyone loading match grade ammo with the 129 now?

SLG,

Plenty of people are. Check out the 6.5 Grendel forum. If by 'anyone' you meant companies, the first example to come to mind would be: http://www.precisionfirearms.com/29.html

[DocGKR]

Concur with SLG--6.5G is a good sporting cartridge.

In past testing multiple 6.8 mm M4 military type carbines without FF rails using barrels of 12 and 16 inches fired five 10 shot groups at 100 yards demonstrating extreme spread averages ranging from about 2-4"; the same systems were also tested at 300 meters were found to have ES averages from 8-14".

Another government test assessed suppressed 6.8 mm rifles firing 6.8 mm ammo from 5 different vendors and determined accuracy at 100 meters to average 2.54", control USG M4's firing 5.56 mm Mk262 shot an average group size of 2.03"

An additional military test comparing 5.56 mm, 6.8 mm, and 7.62 mm ammunition at 300 meters demonstrated the following 10 shot ave ES:
5.56 mm M855 = 8.4", 5.56 mm Mk318 5.1", 6.8 mm 115 gr OTM = 7.8", 7.62x51mm Mk319 = 6.5"

[SLG]

SLG,

Plenty of people are. Check out the 6.5 Grendel forum. If by 'anyone' you meant companies, the first example to come to mind would be: http://www.precisionfirearms.com/29.html

I did mean factory fodder. I have some PF ammo that I need to test, but their stuff is a little out of my price range, given the quantities I use. Funny that the Nosler is actually about their cheapest loading though! Thanks again for the tip!

[witchking777]

Concur with SLG--6.5G is a good sporting cartridge.

In past testing multiple 6.8 mm M4 military type carbines without FF rails using barrels of 12 and 16 inches fired five 10 shot groups at 100 yards demonstrating extreme spread averages ranging from about 2-4"; the same systems were also tested at 300 meters were found to have ES averages from 8-14".

Another government test assessed suppressed 6.8 mm rifles firing 6.8 mm ammo from 5 different vendors and determined accuracy at 100 meters to average 2.54", control USG M4's firing 5.56 mm Mk262 shot an average group size of 2.03"

An additional military test comparing 5.56 mm, 6.8 mm, and 7.62 mm ammunition at 300 meters demonstrated the following 10 shot ave ES:
5.56 mm M855 = 8.4", 5.56 mm Mk318 5.1", 6.8 mm 115 gr OTM = 7.8", 7.62x51mm Mk319 = 6.5"
I'm thinking the new 100 grain GMX bullet with a B.C. of .447 should tighten things up a bit,the 165 gr .308 bullet in my reloads shoots touching groups out of my Savage 99E,that Full Boar 6.8 load should be out in a month or so according to Hornady

[Haraise]

I did mean factory fodder. I have some PF ammo that I need to test, but their stuff is a little out of my price range, given the quantities I use. Funny that the Nosler is actually about their cheapest loading though! Thanks again for the tip!

No problem!

Per Grendel bolts:
There are plenty of fixes for the Grendel bolt issue. ArPerformance makes a higher strength drop in bolt, and an even larger bolt and bolt carrier combination if you want to push for maximum pressure (bored out carrier). Then there are the other companies that make stronger Grendel bolts... It's a known and solved a while ago problem if you buy a well set up Grendel gun. :)

[SLG]

No problem!

Per Grendel bolts:
There are plenty of fixes for the Grendel bolt issue. ArPerformance makes a higher strength drop in bolt, and an even larger bolt and bolt carrier combination if you want to push for maximum pressure (bored out carrier). Then there are the other companies that make stronger Grendel bolts... It's a known and solved a while ago problem if you buy a well set up Grendel gun. :)

My Grendel is set up as well a Grendel can be, and has been completely reliable and, so far, durable. The difference is, when Doc and I talk about reliability and durability, we're not talking about our one or two guns. Nor the 100 other guns that some guys on a forum say work great. We're talking about properly run tests using sometimes dozens of the same guns/ammo/mags/lube and protocols. Then, when the winner of those types of tests is actually used successfully in the field for years by scores, hundreds, thousands of troops (LE or Mil), you have some real data to point to.

A quick example is firearms classes. I have never been to an open to the public class where some weapons didn't malfunction or break. When I train with my guys, who all use the same guns/ammo/holsters etc...I see far fewer issues by several orders of magnitude. Issued gear is vetted on a level that most users can't touch.

Having said that, I love my Grendel and have been trying to convince everyone I know to get one! I just don't mistake it for a military weapon.

[Dagga Boy]

I do not intend to try and refute anything that Doc has said here. These are strictly my opinions based on my personal assessment and needs.

I went with a 6.8 for all the reasons Doc has stated. In fact, he and I had talked about it quite a bit at the time. I went as high end as I thought existed at the time, and was pretty disappointed with the accuracy of the gun I ended up with. The maker told me that 6.8's tend to be the least accurate caliber they use. The terrible BC's don't help either if you want to go much past point black zero range. Obviously, other 6.8 guns will be more or less accurate, but after my expensive foray into 6.8, I didn't want to try again. I now have a 6.5 Grendel that is everything I could want. IMHO, it outperforms the 6.8 in every way that matters to ME. My 16" gun will reach past 1000 yards at least as easily as my 175 FGMM 308. Maybe easier. BC is excellent compared to 308. Terminal ballistics on game out to beyond where I am willing to shoot as well. It really is a pretty amazing gun, and ammo is cheaper than equivalent 308.

Is it as reliable as 6.8 or 300blk? I don't think so, for the reasons that Doc mentioned and more. Is it appropriate as a fighting cartridge? Not in my opinion. Again, see reliability.

As a sporting cartridge, I find it to be among the best I have ever used.

There is so much gold here. I am a big fan of the 6.8 SPC. I don't hunt four legged animals, just twos. The 6.8 SPC is a near perfect law enforcement round if you take all the emotion out of the equation and just look at it logically. Optimized for good patrol rifle sized guns. Good on cars. Can be put in sniper systems optimized for typical LE sniper engagement ranges and scenarios. Low recoil and as easy to run as a 5.56 gun. You get 80% of a .308 without many of the issues in recoil, penetration, and size of the .308 systems. The list goes on. What has always been TOTALLY baffling to me is the relentless effort to push it as a hunting cartridge. As a person who hunts evil humans, I have never understood wanting to hunt Moose with a AR-15 based platform. I have a bunch of really awesome hunting rifles that are far more practical for this endeavor if I ever decided that I needed to start killing four legged animals. Essentially, the 6.8 SPC is a under appreciated LE system, that I blame a lot on a whole bunch of folks trying to make it into a hunting round.

I also do not want to be one of those guys who craps on someone else's world without a good reason (no, really....:cool:). I understand that some folks want to hunt with the AR. Okay, got it. So I look at all sorts of stuff, and boy it sure looks like 6.5 Grendel makes a better hunting round than the 6.8 SPC does. So I figure if I really wanted a sporting AR, the Grendel makes a ton of sense.

I am working on the "New 30-30 Concept" for awhile. I have been lazy on the paperwork, but when it is done, my Texas 30-30 12.5 LMT LM8 in 6.8SPC is capable of taking all the game in Texas (which is smaller than up north), should slay pigs like a boss, and is very acceptable in this state for people as a defensive carbine, and would make a great LE carbine. A 6.5 version may make more sense farther North, or for someone who is far more concerned about the hunting aspect as I am.

[witchking777]

There is so much gold here. I am a big fan of the 6.8 SPC. I don't hunt four legged animals, just twos. The 6.8 SPC is a near perfect law enforcement round if you take all the emotion out of the equation and just look at it logically. Optimized for good patrol rifle sized guns. Good on cars. Can be put in sniper systems optimized for typical LE sniper engagement ranges and scenarios. Low recoil and as easy to run as a 5.56 gun. You get 80% of a .308 without many of the issues in recoil, penetration, and size of the .308 systems. The list goes on. What has always been TOTALLY baffling to me is the relentless effort to push it as a hunting cartridge. As a person who hunts evil humans, I have never understood wanting to hunt Moose with a AR-15 based platform. I have a bunch of really awesome hunting rifles that are far more practical for this endeavor if I ever decided that I needed to start killing four legged animals. Essentially, the 6.8 SPC is a under appreciated LE system, that I blame a lot on a whole bunch of folks trying to make it into a hunting round.

I also do not want to be one of those guys who craps on someone else's world without a good reason (no, really....:cool:). I understand that some folks want to hunt with the AR. Okay, got it. So I look at all sorts of stuff, and boy it sure looks like 6.5 Grendel makes a better hunting round than the 6.8 SPC does. So I figure if I really wanted a sporting AR, the Grendel makes a ton of sense.

I am working on the "New 30-30 Concept" for awhile. I have been lazy on the paperwork, but when it is done, my Texas 30-30 12.5 LMT LM8 in 6.8SPC is capable of taking all the game in Texas (which is smaller than up north), should slay pigs like a boss, and is very acceptable in this state for people as a defensive carbine, and would make a great LE carbine. A 6.5 version may make more sense farther North, or for someone who is far more concerned about the hunting aspect as I am.

Some of the reasons you mention are the reasons I am considering 6.8 as my primary defensive carbine caliber,do I doubt my 5.56 with a good barrier blind round? Not at all! But meh,it's cheaper to shoot an evil 2 legged creature once rather than twice right? All joking aside I appreciate all the answers to my question,the barrel and bolt I'm looking at are ar15performance.com items,socom or scout profile barrel? Mags will be PRI,Barrett,or Cproducts(bloody 'ell Magpul make polymer already besides SIX8),later with a Geiselle gas block,any thoughts?

[Dagga Boy]

Personally, all my 6.8's are LMT MRP based. They work, I run Hornady almost exclusively...so again, it works. The Ar15performance guy thinks I am a moron for using factory ammo and a SAMMI spec gun and was one of the ones who pretty much wrote of any LE opinions because of using factory ammo and not maximizing the round. So essentially, don't have an opinion of his product, not do I care.
I have found it very amusing to see guys on the net talking all sorts of trash about companies not using SPC II or twist of the week, and you gain instant net points for asking about twist and chamber, yet the same people are often using total hobby gun parts and Frankenstein builds with stuff nobody in my circles would ever use on a serious service carbine.

I got a proven combo. I took second in a sniper school against 27 bolt guns with one. I am happy and seeing no issues with the proven combo I am running, including suppressed.

[DocGKR]

These days I prefer a faster twist for 6.8 mm, especially with shorter barrels. SPCII is fine, but not a deal breaker. Currently I only run factory 6.8 mm ammo from ATK or Hornady.

[Dagga Boy]

So all of a sudden, my 1 in 10's are good....;-)

[SLG]

So, Doc and Nyeti and anyone else,

Can you give me a good reason to keep my 6.8? I was thinking of getting rid of it since I have 6.5, .308 and of course lots of 5.56. Is there something it does much better than the rest, given that I have great 5.56 ammo (as well as the other calibers, of course).

[Dagga Boy]

It doesn't sound like you have a need. Again, I wouldn't use mine for the type of hunting you are likely doing with your Grendel. Your 5.56 will likely handle most LE stuff supplemented by .308.

For me, the 6.8 fills several roles and is a very good solution for most urban LE/Defensive scenarios. If I could only get an AUG in 6.8SPC:p. I also have some very high quality AK's for similar roles. I can also change my 6.8's to 5.56 if I wanted, which is a nice benefit. Once I get my SBR done I can drop a 10.5" 5.56 or .300 BLk barrel in my 12.5 6.8 gun if I wanted with no effort.

[DocGKR]

SLG--for your uses no. The 6.8 mm gives someone with an AR15 an ability to upgrade to a caliber that offers 75% of the terminal performance of a .308 at close to intermediate ranges, but in a small lightweight AR15 carbine package that can use 8-16" barrels and is easy to carry and maneuver with. It is a great option for folks who have AR15 receivers and want to hunt medium game like hogs, deer, elk, and black bear at typical ranges of 300 and in, but have no AR10 available. It also offers LE officers a single caliber that can handle virtually all LE shoulder fired weapon tasks in a lightweight 12" barrel package. Given your current tasks and tools, you don't need it.

[GJM]

I have had the same 6.8 accuracy experience as SLG, as I recall using the same high end brand upper, and many of the same loads.

If it is for hunting, why not the 6.5 Grendel on a Brockman CZ, which is handy, reliable, durable and accurate?

[SLG]

SLG--for your uses no. The 6.8 mm gives someone with an AR15 an ability to upgrade to a caliber that offers 75% of the terminal performance of a .308 at close to intermediate ranges, but in a small lightweight AR15 carbine package that can use 8-16" barrels and is easy to carry and maneuver with. It is a great option for folks who have AR15 receivers and want to hunt medium game like hogs, deer, elk, and black bear at typical ranges of 300 and in, but have no AR10 available. It also offers LE officers a single caliber that can handle virtually all LE shoulder fired weapon tasks in a lightweight 12" barrel package. Given your current tasks and tools, you don't need it.

So do you think there is anything in your description of a 6.8 that my 6.5 can't do? Aside from the fact that I wouldn't carry it on duty (if I could). Other than the Long Range aspect of the 6.5, I see the 6.8 and the 6.5 as filling the same power roles vis-a-vis the 308.

[SLG]

I have had the same 6.8 accuracy experience as SLG, as I recall using the same high end brand upper, and many of the same loads.

If it is for hunting, why not the 6.5 Grendel on a Brockman CZ, which is handy, reliable, durable and accurate?

I love the little CZ, and all turnbolts in general, but I'm focused on the better ergonomics of the AR, so that's what I'm using. Plus, there is only a small weight penalty with the AR over the CZ, and I do get a gun I'm most familiar with.

But, I just zero'd a newish GAP 308, and it is pretty sweet. Hard to stay faithful to one long gun for me.

[oldtexan]

There is so much gold here. I am a big fan of the 6.8 SPC. I don't hunt four legged animals, just twos. The 6.8 SPC is a near perfect law enforcement round if you take all the emotion out of the equation and just look at it logically. Optimized for good patrol rifle sized guns. Good on cars. Can be put in sniper systems optimized for typical LE sniper engagement ranges and scenarios. Low recoil and as easy to run as a 5.56 gun. You get 80% of a .308 without many of the issues in recoil, penetration, and size of the .308 systems. The list goes on. What has always been TOTALLY baffling to me is the relentless effort to push it as a hunting cartridge. As a person who hunts evil humans, I have never understood wanting to hunt Moose with a AR-15 based platform. I have a bunch of really awesome hunting rifles that are far more practical for this endeavor if I ever decided that I needed to start killing four legged animals. Essentially, the 6.8 SPC is a under appreciated LE system, that I blame a lot on a whole bunch of folks trying to make it into a hunting round.

I also do not want to be one of those guys who craps on someone else's world without a good reason (no, really....:cool:). I understand that some folks want to hunt with the AR. Okay, got it. So I look at all sorts of stuff, and boy it sure looks like 6.5 Grendel makes a better hunting round than the 6.8 SPC does. So I figure if I really wanted a sporting AR, the Grendel makes a ton of sense.

I am working on the "New 30-30 Concept" for awhile. I have been lazy on the paperwork, but when it is done, my Texas 30-30 12.5 LMT LM8 in 6.8SPC is capable of taking all the game in Texas (which is smaller than up north), should slay pigs like a boss, and is very acceptable in this state for people as a defensive carbine, and would make a great LE carbine. A 6.5 version may make more sense farther North, or for someone who is far more concerned about the hunting aspect as I am.

Nyeti, what has been your experience with the 6.8 in an AR in terms of accuracy? What kind of groups are you getting with what loads and how does this compare to your experience with accuracy of 5.56mm in an AR?

[Dagga Boy]

In sniper school I was able to hit a penny at a 100 yards. Weirdly, that gun shot better with a shortened barrel that started as an 18 and was cut to 16" by Barry Dueck and set up to take a Surefire can. It also shot well suppressed. It was not even close to the bolt guns, but it was certainly a solid 1 MOA gun. My others are similarly accurate to my 5.56 stuff in similar configurations. Where I saw a good difference was in the shoot off at the school, I was at 300 yards shooting USMC Scout-Sniper who was a full time sniper at a large, busy agency now. He was running a custom 700 in .308 and mine was a 16" LMT MRP with the 16" SS match barrel. We were shooting in terrible wind conditions with a full value window coming out of one canyon and a hard gusting wind out of another direction near the targets. This is where I found the 6.8 to be better than the 5.56 in particular. We shot near identical groups in nearly the same place on the targets, but the other guy got a bit of a tear into a scoring ring better. The difference was literally the difference between a .270 and .308 hole. Keep in mind we left 25 other guys behind us to get there. Now when we were shooting 100 yard groups, polar opposite situation. My point is that the guns may not group as well under ideal shooting conditions for trying to make little holes, but they seem to be easy to shoot consistently under field conditions. Hopefully, that makes sense.

Another issue is that the 18" barrel would consistently shoot a single round out of the group on the first round loaded from the magazine. It was not nearly as pronounced with the cut 16" barrel. That is another factor as well in which some factors will be in play that are individualized with each barrel.

[DocGKR]

So do you think there is anything in your description of a 6.8 that my 6.5 can't do? Aside from the fact that I wouldn't carry it on duty (if I could). Other than the Long Range aspect of the 6.5, I see the 6.8 and the 6.5 as filling the same power roles vis-a-vis the 308.

With minor variations, all of the 6.x cartridges for the AR15 FOW essentially are in the same category (as is .300 BLK), due to the limited case capacity. Ignoring durability and reliability, there are currently more barrier blind loads available in 6.8 mm. 6.8 mm also tends to work better in shorter 8-12" barrels. Both 6.5G and 6.8 mm are fine with 16" barrels for the majority of LE duty and civilian hunting needs, with an accuracy edge to 6.5G at longer ranges.

For a duty weapon, a durable, reliable, proven 16" .308 semi-auto is likely a better choice than a 6.5G for many reasons, especially since the 1/8 twist .308 16" AR's are proving accurate out to 1000 and a bit beyond.

In a typical service carbine with a 16" or shorter barrel, using mass produce duty ammo, 6.8 mm offers essentially the same accuracy and trajectory as 5.56 mm out to typical carbine engagement distances (usually limited by terrain and common carbine optics--RDS, ACOG, low power variable in the 1-6x range) as demonstrated in the USG accuracy data posted on page 5 of this thread.

For a non-paper punching long range rifle in 6.5/.260, something with more case capacity than 6.5G is preferable--at least 6.5 Creedmore/.260 Rem.

For a new idealized GP military rifle/SAW caliber, almost all research indicates that a cartridge in the 6.5-7mm range with a case capacity of at least 40 gr propellant and a case head intermediate in size between those typically used in AR15's and AR10's is the preferred choice--thus the existence of AMU's .264/.277 USA.

[Jeep]

The 6.8, 6.5 and .300 Blackout are all interesting calibers, but for defensive purposes my view is that us non-LEO civilians are probably generally better off with a 5.56, a semi-auto or pump shotgun and a 9 mm pistol.

Among other things, standardized ammo, and the weapons for which it is standardized, tend, as mentioned above, to be more reliable and they also tend to be cheaper--which allows for much more training.

If I were back in the military, I'd be pestering the powers that be to consider transitioning to a caliber like the 6.8 (thought they won't--we are going to be using the 5.56 for a long time) and from nyeti's and Doc's comments it sounds like it has a lot of promise as an LEO round. The 6.5 obviously has a lot going for it as a hunting and possibly designated marksman round (though that won't happen either).

But for civilian self-defense, I think the standardized calibers are the way to go and I think at most civilian SD ranges the shotgun is probably the long gun of choice.

[Symmetry]

for defensive purposes my view is that us non-LEO civilians are probably generally better off with a 5.56, a semi-auto or pump shotgun and a 9 mm pistol.


It is what I use as a LEO too, and it is very difficult to find justification to go outside that box.

[witchking777]

With minor variations, all of the 6.x cartridges for the AR15 FOW essentially are in the same category (as is .300 BLK), due to the limited case capacity. Ignoring durability and reliability, there are currently more barrier blind loads available in 6.8 mm. 6.8 mm also tends to work better in shorter 8-12" barrels. Both 6.5G and 6.8 mm are fine with 16" barrels for the majority of LE duty and civilian hunting needs, with an accuracy edge to 6.5G at longer ranges.

For a duty weapon, a durable, reliable, proven 16" .308 semi-auto is likely a better choice than a 6.5G for many reasons, especially since the 1/8 twist .308 16" AR's are proving accurate out to 1000 and a bit beyond.

In a typical service carbine with a 16" or shorter barrel, using mass produce duty ammo, 6.8 mm offers essentially the same accuracy and trajectory as 5.56 mm out to typical carbine engagement distances (usually limited by terrain and common carbine optics--RDS, ACOG, low power variable in the 1-6x range) as demonstrated in the USG accuracy data posted on page 5 of this thread.

For a non-paper punching long range rifle in 6.5/.260, something with more case capacity than 6.5G is preferable--at least 6.5 Creedmore/.260 Rem.

For a new idealized GP military rifle/SAW caliber, almost all research indicates that a cartridge in the 6.5-7mm range with a case capacity of at least 40 gr propellant and a case head intermediate in size between those typically used in AR15's and AR10's is the preferred choice--thus the existence of AMU's .264/.277 USA.

So now I'm gonna throw everyone for a loop,what about a reliable g2 recon in .308 with a muzzlebrake in a 16" barrel? More food for thought,curious to see everyone's input

[Dagga Boy]

So now I'm gonna throw everyone for a loop,what about a reliable g2 recon in .308 with a muzzlebrake in a 16" barrel? More food for thought,curious to see everyone's input

The gun, or ammunition wise. If its the gun.........DPMS.....have not had good luck with their 5.56's, so I am twice as leery of a .308 version. Easy suggestion that fixed me as to dreams of running a .308 like a carbine.....go take a difficult 3-5 day class with one and let me know if you think it is viable. I took a LaRue Texas Ranger rifle through a 3 day EAG Advanced Low Light Carbine class that cured me pretty quick. The reality is that the LaRue gun would have been better than my 6.8 SPC LMT MRP in sniper school (the LaRue shoots .49) and the LMT would have been a great choice for the EAG Low light school.

We all "get" 5.56 logistically for L/E, but if you look at the round alone strictly on its performance and attributes, in my mind, it is the ideal LE caliber. It will likely only get adopted on the internet as predicted by Vickers, but the LE realm is one place where it could have been a really viable alternative and would have made logistical sense as far as a single rifle caliber for all missions.

[witchking777]

The gun, or ammunition wise. If its the gun.........DPMS.....have not had good luck with their 5.56's, so I am twice as leery of a .308 version. Easy suggestion that fixed me as to dreams of running a .308 like a carbine.....go take a difficult 3-5 day class with one and let me know if you think it is viable. I took a LaRue Texas Ranger rifle through a 3 day EAG Advanced Low Light Carbine class that cured me pretty quick. The reality is that the LaRue gun would have been better than my 6.8 SPC LMT MRP in sniper school (the LaRue shoots .49) and the LMT would have been a great choice for the EAG Low light school.

We all "get" 5.56 logistically for L/E, but if you look at the round alone strictly on its performance and attributes, in my mind, it is the ideal LE caliber. It will likely only get adopted on the internet as predicted by Vickers, but the LE realm is one place where it could have been a really viable alternative and would have made logistical sense as far as a single rifle caliber for all missions.
Hmmm haven't had any hicccups with my Recon and 3,000+ rounds =/. I agree that 556 is definitely easier on the supply side of things

[LittleLebowski]

So now I'm gonna throw everyone for a loop,what about a reliable g2 recon in .308 with a muzzlebrake in a 16" barrel? More food for thought,curious to see everyone's input

There's a lot of better choices, at least to me. S&W, Colt, Larue, etc.

[LSP972]

The 6.8, 6.5 and .300 Blackout are all interesting calibers, but for defensive purposes my view is that us non-LEO civilians are probably generally better off with a 5.56, a semi-auto or pump shotgun and a 9 mm pistol.

Among other things, standardized ammo, and the weapons for which it is standardized, tend, as mentioned above, to be more reliable and they also tend to be cheaper--which allows for much more training.

.

Agreed. I have several friends who are deep into the six-point-whatever thing; and while I haven't been to the range with them, I have to wonder how much of the accolades they heap upon their chosen caliber is self-justification?

I actually looked into "going bigger"; first with the .45 calibers, then Mekong Match, and finally the 6mms. It all came down to relaibility/magazine issues with the 7.62X39 examples, and ammunition availability for the others. The situation may have changed, but at that time ammunition for the .45s and 6mm offerings was pretty much a DIY proposition... and while I gladly reload pistol ammo for casual practice, no way I have the patience these days to carefully craft good rifle ammunition.

There have been several mentions in this thread regarding personal situations, needs, and already-to-hand "tools"... all of which are spot-on and relevant, IMO. For some time now, my "survival plan" has revolved around "Bugging IN". While I find the 6mm ARs interesting, I'm betting that my poodle-shooter ARs and M1 Garand will do what I need done, as long as I am able to do it.

Front porch gun racks, anyone??? :)

.

[rob_s]

So now I'm gonna throw everyone for a loop,what about a reliable g2 recon in .308 with a muzzlebrake in a 16" barrel? More food for thought,curious to see everyone's input

For most of us, "reliable" and "DPMS" aren't ever going to go hand-in-hand (your subsequently-mentioned sample of one notwhithstanding). Neither, for me, will a muzzle brake of any sort on a "practical" use rifle, doubly so in .308.

[rob_s]

There have been several mentions in this thread regarding personal situations, needs, and already-to-hand "tools"... all of which are spot-on and relevant, IMO. For some time now, my "survival plan" has revolved around "Bugging IN". While I find the 6mm ARs interesting, I'm betting that my poodle-shooter ARs and M1 Garand will do what I need done, as long as I am able to do it.


There is a HIGH level of because:fiddle-fart involved in these endeavors, not to mention a lot of Emperor's New Clothes. But thank God for them. Without the Pioneers, there can be no Settlers, but remember that for every Pioneer that history remembers for finding the bountiful valley there are two dozen that wandered into an Indian camp and got scalped.

For me, when all things are considered and MY situation is rationally evaluated, there isn't a reason I *need* anything more than a Glock 19 and a Colt 6720 for, and neither requires any sort of fiddle-fart beyond upgrading the sighting systems, and even that is debatable. I can hunt, CCW, plink, compete (and both win and lose), defend my home, plan for my SHTFantasy, whatever. All with those two guns.

As nyeti said, either in this thread or elsewhere, there is a difference between the "serious use" guns and the because:fun guns. Although many have a hard time differentiating the two after awhile...

[Symmetry]

For most of us, "reliable" and "DPMS" aren't ever going to go hand-in-hand (your subsequently-mentioned sample of one notwhithstanding). Neither, for me, will a muzzle brake of any sort on a "practical" use rifle, doubly so in .308.

There are 3 other officers I know who use the DPMS .308s for personal use, duty, and some competition. Seems like every time I run into them their rifle is out of action for one reason or a other, or is experiencing problems. All 3 are very competent armorers and have built a few rifles.

[rob_s]

There are 3 other officers I know who use the DPMS .308s for personal use, duty, and some competition. Seems like every time I run into them their rifle is out of action for one reason or a other, or is experiencing problems. All 3 are very competent armorers and have built a few rifles.

For those that remember "the chart", seeing guns like DPMS, Oly, etc. going down at matches and classes more than the Colts that other people were shooting is what gave rise to my wanting to get to the bottom of why, under the theory that something must be different in the materials, testing, or assembly process to explain it. As it turns out, it was all three.

[witchking777]

For those that remember "the chart", seeing guns like DPMS, Oly, etc. going down at matches and classes more than the Colts that other people were shooting is what gave rise to my wanting to get to the bottom of why, under the theory that something must be different in the materials, testing, or assembly process to explain it. As it turns out, it was all three.

hmmm keep mine lubed with slip2000 ewl and never had an issue,shoots reloads and factory ammo just fine,3,000 plus rounds in all sorts of weather and still runs like a champ :cool:

[DocGKR]

There is a whole lotta difference between putting 3000 rounds through a rifle over several years, versus putting 3000 rounds a week through one for 6 consecutive weeks in a demanding training environment--a lot of AR15's can do the first task, very few make it through the second...

FWIW, I am with Jeep--I could easily get through the rest of my life with a G19, 870, AR15, and a longer range .30 cal rifle of some sort.

[rudy99]

I have been on the road to 6.8 for a while now, and this thread has me reconsidering that decision.

My purpose was un-suppressed use in a 16" barrel (i.e., 300BLK was ruled out as a result) for the following:

1st for a medium-sized game hunting cartridge and
2nd for some sort of match-type shooting, with a reasonable expectation of 1-1.5 moa

A distant 3rd would be the home defender, but I honestly have the other pistol/shotgun/rifle options mentioned here before I got to a 6.X rifle. I would say the accuracy comments regarding 6.8 have really turned me off to it and got me more thinking about 6.5G.

[Haraise]

I have been on the road to 6.8 for a while now, and this thread has me reconsidering that decision.

My purpose was un-suppressed use in a 16" barrel (i.e., 300BLK was ruled out as a result) for the following:

1st for a medium-sized game hunting cartridge and
2nd for some sort of match-type shooting, with a reasonable expectation of 1-1.5 moa

A distant 3rd would be the home defender, but I honestly have the other pistol/shotgun/rifle options mentioned here before I got to a 6.X rifle. I would say the accuracy comments regarding 6.8 have really turned me off to it and got me more thinking about 6.5G.

You should be able to rather easily find a 1-1.5 MOA 6.8 SPC. It's not that inaccurate of a round. The 6.5G people are more often looking for .25-1 MOA rifles. Also, the 6.5 and 6.8 are more short barrel friendly than the 5.56, so there's less reason (velocity) to go over a 16" barrel in either.

[rob_s]

I have been on the road to 6.8 for a while now, and this thread has me reconsidering that decision.

My purpose was un-suppressed use in a 16" barrel (i.e., 300BLK was ruled out as a result) for the following:

1st for a medium-sized game hunting cartridge and
2nd for some sort of match-type shooting, with a reasonable expectation of 1-1.5 moa

A distant 3rd would be the home defender, but I honestly have the other pistol/shotgun/rifle options mentioned here before I got to a 6.X rifle. I would say the accuracy comments regarding 6.8 have really turned me off to it and got me more thinking about 6.5G.

I started down that road. I was also interested in suppressing it so I ordered up a Noveske upper with a Switchblock and stainless barrel. Once it was in my hands, I figured out that *for me* a .308 bolt gun (initially I bought a Winchester M70) and a 5.56 AR would do it better, for less, without introducing deviations into my system. I sent the Noveske back.

I still wound up with a 6.8 barrel, that I built into an upper, that I've not ever really done anything with just because I had the upper and handguard and the barrel came up super cheap meaning I only had to really pay retail for the bolt.

[witchking777]

There is a whole lotta difference between putting 3000 rounds through a rifle over several years, versus putting 3000 rounds a week through one for 6 consecutive weeks in a demanding training environment--a lot of AR15's can do the first task, very few make it through the second...

FWIW, I am with Jeep--I could easily get through the rest of my life with a G19, 870, AR15, and a longer range .30 cal rifle of some sort.

I agree completely,now if I could convince the boss aka wife that a carbine course(and the ammo) is money well spent I'd like to see how my DPMS fares :)....and my list is the same as yours above,just switch an xdm 4.5 9mm with the Glock,this thread is making me want to keep my 5.56(since I have a nice ammo stash for it :D)

[witchking777]

I started down that road. I was also interested in suppressing it so I ordered up a Noveske upper with a Switchblock and stainless barrel. Once it was in my hands, I figured out that *for me* a .308 bolt gun (initially I bought a Winchester M70) and a 5.56 AR would do it better, for less, without introducing deviations into my system. I sent the Noveske back.

I still wound up with a 6.8 barrel, that I built into an upper, that I've not ever really done anything with just because I had the upper and handguard and the barrel came up super cheap meaning I only had to really pay retail for the bolt.

How much for the upper? lol ;)

[rudy99]

I started down that road. I was also interested in suppressing it so I ordered up a Noveske upper with a Switchblock and stainless barrel. Once it was in my hands, I figured out that *for me* a .308 bolt gun (initially I bought a Winchester M70) and a 5.56 AR would do it better, for less, without introducing deviations into my system.

I'm almost to that conclusion on the bolt gun, and fortunately I don't have too many $$ sunk into 6.8 since I decided to spend some money on parts that could go in any direction (223/300blk/6.8/etc).

[SLG]

My 6.5G was built with .5 moa in mind, because aside from hunting with it, I wanted to play at long range with it. I have plenty of LR rigs though, and if I had been able to find a 1-1.5 moa 6.8, I would have never moved on. I had the opportunity to shoot a few high end 6.8's from several different gunsmiths and companies before I decided on a model to buy. None of them would do better than 2 moa, some did a fair bit worse. Bear in mind that if there was a 6.8 equivalent to FGMM (there wasn't), that still wouldn't really help me, since I needed it to shoot hunting ammo (premium, but still hunting) well. I tried stuff from the big guys as well as the boutiques. None came close to what I was looking for. Your needs and wants may differ.

[DocGKR]

6.8 mm was designed to go into M4's and be better than our M855 and our enemy's 7.62x39mm for both accuracy and terminal performance. It succeeded fantastically in meeting these goals. It was NEVER intended to be a benchrest or match cartridge.

[BLR]

6.8 mm was designed to go into M4's and be better than our M855 and our enemy's 7.62x39mm for both accuracy and terminal performance. It succeeded fantastically in meeting these goals. It was NEVER intended to be a benchrest or match cartridge.

The inherent accuracy of the cartridge is really quite good. Better than many give it credit. I have a BR buddy campaigning a 6-68 and 68 right now. Mostly because he wants to be different.

He makes a good argument for the 68 in score shooting, accounting for bullet diameter and wind resistance. Hes competitive with the 30BR guys save for a select few.

On windless days, he's shooting 2s with the 6 and 3s for the 68.

Bullet, barrel, and chamber.

[rob_s]

I'm almost to that conclusion on the bolt gun, and fortunately I don't have too many $$ sunk into 6.8 since I decided to spend some money on parts that could go in any direction (223/300blk/6.8/etc).

Well, in truth that's the whole thing of 6.8, that it only requires a different bolt, barrel, and magazines. And, a portion of the hype relative to 300 WTF in that it only requires the different barrel.

I think, just spitballing, that a ~6.5 projectile with a 5.56 case head would be interesting. Especially if it could be made to fit in 5.56 magazines.

[Dagga Boy]

6.8 mm was designed to go into M4's and be better than our M855 and our enemy's 7.62x39mm for both accuracy and terminal performance. It succeeded fantastically in meeting these goals. It was NEVER intended to be a benchrest or match cartridge.

Which is why "on paper" I love the thing and have numerous rifles converted to it. It makes far more sense than the 5.56, yet we cling to the 5.56 based on purely logistics. If we threw out ammunition price and availability, I could easily say "all I need are a 9mm, a good 12 ga. and a 6.8SPC carbine and rifle". If I could only get an AUG in 6.8 SPC........:cool:.

[oldtexan]

I acknowledge that 6.8 has greater terminal ballistic effects than 5.56mm.

I guess the key question for many folks, me included, who are heavily invested in .223/5.56mm and have to foot the bill for ammo, is whether the change to 6.8mm is worth the various costs involved, or is .223/5.56mm good enough? Has anyone here encountered an instance where a properly-placed shot or two or three from a .223 or 5.56mm carbine using a good load has failed to incapacitate a human threat in a reasonable time, particularly at distances of 50 yards or less? If so, could you share the details? Let's define good loads as being those recommended by Doc.

[Dagga Boy]

I acknowledge that 6.8 has greater terminal ballistic effects than 5.56mm.

I guess the key question for many folks, me included, who are heavily invested in .223/5.56mm and have to foot the bill for ammo, is whether the change to 6.8mm is worth the various costs involved, or is .223/5.56mm good enough? Has anyone here encountered an instance where a properly-placed shot or two or three from a .223 or 5.56mm carbine using a good load has failed to incapacitate a human threat in a reasonable time, particularly at distances of 50 yards or less? If so, could you share the details? Let's define good loads as being those recommended by Doc.

North Hollywood..........I think there may be a video out there.

I may not make sense to re-invest in a 6.8 SPC if you are heavily invested in 5.56mm. I think we are all in that boat. Logistics is a part of the equation, but we need to be honest about this and acknowledge at this point that we are making a logistics choice and not a ballistics choice. The reason I did my 6.8's on the MRP is I can make them back into 5.56mm guns if the logistics need overwhelms the ballistics need. I actually have a ton of 5.56 stuff, but one of the things that will be in the bag with my 12.5" 6.8 "New 30-30" will be a 5.56 mm spare barrel and BCG........just in case.

[oldtexan]

North Hollywood..........I think there may be a video out there.

I may not make sense to re-invest in a 6.8 SPC if you are heavily invested in 5.56mm. I think we are all in that boat. Logistics is a part of the equation, but we need to be honest about this and acknowledge at this point that we are making a logistics choice and not a ballistics choice. The reason I did my 6.8's on the MRP is I can make them back into 5.56mm guns if the logistics need overwhelms the ballistics need. I actually have a ton of 5.56 stuff, but one of the things that will be in the bag with my 12.5" 6.8 "New 30-30" will be a 5.56 mm spare barrel and BCG........just in case.

Nyeti, I can't find any info indicating what .223/5.56mm load what shot into, but apparently failed to penetrate, Mătăsăreanu's chest armor. Would you happen to know?

[Dagga Boy]

None of Matasarenanu's rounds penetrated through the windshield to the officers (thankfully). We have seen a ton of LE shootings with 5.56 where folks were practically bulletproof in a vehicle. Same with guys in the military shooting into windshields overseas. 6.8 is a better round for working around vehicles compared to the 5.56 without many of the over penetration issues of 7.62. I have also talked to guys who have had issues in areas with lots of foliage and barriers. For shooting soft skinned folks in the open, a high quality performance 5.56 is fine. The fact that people are shooting larger game with 6.8 very efficiently is a good indicator.

[Jeep]

None of Matasarenanu's rounds penetrated through the windshield to the officers (thankfully). We have seen a ton of LE shootings with 5.56 where folks were practically bulletproof in a vehicle. Same with guys in the military shooting into windshields overseas. 6.8 is a better round for working around vehicles compared to the 5.56 without many of the over penetration issues of 7.62. I have also talked to guys who have had issues in areas with lots of foliage and barriers. For shooting soft skinned folks in the open, a high quality performance 5.56 is fine. The fact that people are shooting larger game with 6.8 very efficiently is a good indicator.

Why not use an old-time 30-30? Cheaper, and unless you need volume of fire or very fast follow up shots, it will do pretty well.

[witchking777]

None of Matasarenanu's rounds penetrated through the windshield to the officers (thankfully). We have seen a ton of LE shootings with 5.56 where folks were practically bulletproof in a vehicle. Same with guys in the military shooting into windshields overseas. 6.8 is a better round for working around vehicles compared to the 5.56 without many of the over penetration issues of 7.62. I have also talked to guys who have had issues in areas with lots of foliage and barriers. For shooting soft skinned folks in the open, a high quality performance 5.56 is fine. The fact that people are shooting larger game with 6.8 very efficiently is a good indicator.

A sign of poor ammo choices,albeit the period in history or ignorance of the issuing CO,i.e. North Hollywood,different OIS with ballistic tip ammo(issued to our city cops),maybe Hugo Schmeisser had it right when he developed the STG-44,a fat heavy bullet at medium velocity that covers most battlefield scenarios,in my mind 6.8 could possibly be the best improvement on that idea for the reasons Doc mentions and elsewhere.....time for me to get a 6.8 barrel,bolt,and mags,what the heck

[jlw]

Why not use an old-time 30-30? Cheaper, and unless you need volume of fire or very fast follow up shots, it will do pretty well.

Some of us do although I did just take delivery on a .300Blk AR. I will most likely do a 6.8 at some point soon although most likely it will be an upper rather than a new rifle.

I have a "Social Levergun" class coming up on 1/17 in the Athens, GA, area for anyone interested.

[Malamute]

Why not use an old-time 30-30? Cheaper, and unless you need volume of fire or very fast follow up shots, it will do pretty well.


Some of us do although I did just take delivery on a .300Blk AR. I will most likely do a 6.8 at some point soon although most likely it will be an upper rather than a new rifle.

I have a "Social Levergun" class coming up on 1/17 in the Athens, GA, area for anyone interested.

That class sounds very interesting, wish I could make it.

I like auto carbines, (the 6-8s are sounding pretty interesting) but the simple matter is I nearly always have a lever action with me or near me, from 30-30 to 348 or 45-70. They are very good working guns and very handy to carry and use. They attract very little attention also. The only long gun I carry nearly as much is a scoped bolt gun. I daresay in the part of the country I live in, I could likely hitch-hike with a lever action or bolt action and not have much trouble getting a ride.

30-30's seem to shoot through cars fairly well, what little I've done of it. 45-70's go through them rather well also.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I also read about that class and thought it sounded...well, I was going to say "cool" but then I thought I should say something more literate, like "interesting and worthwhile". Which it does. But it also sounds cool.

I have a .357 lever which is on my "never sell" list. Might try to take it after mountain goat next year. Here you can get relatively close to them, if you're willing to climb a lot. My dad is a mountain goat hunter and has never made a shot longer than about 75 yards.


But if I were going to scrap it out with someone gun-wise, I'd probably prefer an AR. I really like the concept of the 6.8 but damn, I wish someone had come up with a good ~6.5ish round that had a 5.56 base and fit in a regular AR mag.

[jlw]

I have posted here several times that I chose our duty ammo due to its performance when shooting through auto glass. It (Hornady Critical Duty) and the Federal HST ammo outperformed all of the other brands. The thing is though, for just 'walking around", I would feel perfectly well armed with any of the other top shelf carry ammo, but I have to consider shooting into cars.

In a similar vein, I have seen issues with 5.56 and car bodies unless barrier ammo was used, but such ammo brings soft target issues; thus, my interest in .300Blk and this discussion of 6.8SPC.

[Haraise]

But if I were going to scrap it out with someone gun-wise, I'd probably prefer an AR. I really like the concept of the 6.8 but damn, I wish someone had come up with a good ~6.5ish round that had a 5.56 base and fit in a regular AR mag.

With how low velocity 6.5 in a 5.56 case would be, that'd be a really, really bad round. In no small part because it'd be so slow almost no bullets would expand.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Yeah, I was thinking of a rebated rim with increased capacity.

[Unobtanium]

None of Matasarenanu's rounds penetrated through the windshield to the officers (thankfully). We have seen a ton of LE shootings with 5.56 where folks were practically bulletproof in a vehicle. Same with guys in the military shooting into windshields overseas. 6.8 is a better round for working around vehicles compared to the 5.56 without many of the over penetration issues of 7.62. I have also talked to guys who have had issues in areas with lots of foliage and barriers. For shooting soft skinned folks in the open, a high quality performance 5.56 is fine. The fact that people are shooting larger game with 6.8 very efficiently is a good indicator.

I've shot up a few vehicles of various makes and models and not observed them to be anywhere near bulletproof. Put M855 and M193 into a trunk and frags went through the trunk, back seat, front seat, and into the dash. Now, those are NOT my preferred rounds, but you're going to have a bad time if you're in between point A and B. With bonded or TSX ammo, it's curtains.

[Unobtanium]

With how low velocity 6.5 in a 5.56 case would be, that'd be a really, really bad round. In no small part because it'd be so slow almost no bullets would expand.

300BLK expands reliably down to 1400fps. How slow do you think a 6.5 in a 5.56 case would be considering that a 7.62 in a 5.56 case breaks 2300 from a 16" barrel?

[Malamute]

I also read about that class and thought it sounded...well, I was going to say "cool" but then I thought I should say something more literate, like "interesting and worthwhile". Which it does. But it also sounds cool.

I have a .357 lever which is on my "never sell" list. Might try to take it after mountain goat next year. Here you can get relatively close to them, if you're willing to climb a lot. My dad is a mountain goat hunter and has never made a shot longer than about 75 yards.


But if I were going to scrap it out with someone gun-wise, I'd probably prefer an AR. I really like the concept of the 6.8 but damn, I wish someone had come up with a good ~6.5ish round that had a 5.56 base and fit in a regular AR mag.


I'm with you on that, though in average daily life, I nearly always have a lever action around, for the things I do more often than get in shooting incidents. Critters, from skunks, to road hit stuff up to elks, and walking around in bear country are more common for me. Other guns would do much or any of that I guess, but the carry part comes in, and so far I havent found anything that carries as well in hand as a lever. If I knew Al-shabob or ISIS were around the neighborhood, or the Hells Angels were going to be in town, I'd take the self loader and plenty of spare mags. As is, in my rural hillbilly life, the levers and bolts are pretty good general purpose guns. With how they perform on game, they should fill in for defensive stuff if need be.

[GJM]

A .45-70 Marlin Guide gun, cut to 12.5 LOP and a 16.25 barrel, carries small, hits big, and is top of the food chain for a general purpose, defensive long gun in area where the issues might also include larger four leg creatures.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I'm with you on that, though in average daily life, I nearly always have a lever action around, for the things I do more often than get in shooting incidents. Critters, from skunks, to road hit stuff up to elks, and walking around in bear country are more common for me. Other guns would do much or any of that I guess, but the carry part comes in, and so far I havent found anything that carries as well in hand as a lever. If I knew Al-shabob or ISIS were around the neighborhood, or the Hells Angels were going to be in town, I'd take the self loader and plenty of spare mags. As is, in my rural hillbilly life, the levers and bolts are pretty good general purpose guns. With how they perform on game, they should fill in for defensive stuff if need be.

Totally reasonable IMO...I live in a city and don't carry a gun at all and I'm still breathing. A lever gun would be infinitely more effective than the ARs at home in my safe.

[Malamute]

A .45-70 Marlin Guide gun, cut to 12.5 LOP and a 16.25 barrel, carries small, hits big, and is top of the food chain for a general purpose, defensive long gun in area where the issues might also include larger four leg creatures.

Good point. I like my 1886 Browning carbine a lot. I only trimmed it to 20", but for hand carry in my area, I like it a lot. Hope I can get my shoulder fixed and be able to shoot it with bear loads again.



Totally reasonable IMO...I live in a city and don't carry a gun at all and I'm still breathing. A lever gun would be infinitely more effective than the ARs at home in my safe.

The last part is the important thing. I know people that hike, camp, fish or whatever unarmed here and survive. Some get big huge, heavy pistols, then find them uncomfortable to carry much. It happens similarly with many scoped bolt guns, great for hunting, not so handy for day in, day out carrying around. I've packed self loaders around in the hills. They do ok, but just arent as handy to carry over time. I've found if they arent easy/handy/whatever to carry, they get left behind more often. I'm happiest with a decent pistol and rifle around. The levers work out pretty well as working guns and stand-ins for defensive use if need be. If I happen to ride with someone else out here, nobody thinks much of me grabbing my lever gun and pistol. We've had enough bear incidents that it doesnt get much notice or concern to take them.

[JM Campbell]

556 meets 6.8= .277 wolverine

http://www.maddogweapons.com/277-wolverine.html

[Haraise]

Yeah, I was thinking of a rebated rim with increased capacity.

Rebated rims have their own issues, especially with a semi auto in feeding. For me, I'd really like a 6.8 necked down to 6.5 for the additional capacity (as stated before, the bolt issue is a non-issue if you're using a good Grendel bolt), but it's not really a big consideration.

[DocGKR]

Please see pg. 14 here: http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf, initially 6.5 mm and 7 mm versions of SPC were built, the 6.8 mm came a bit later as a compromise between the accuracy of the 6.5 SPC and the terminal performance of the 7 mm SPC.

[JAD]

6.5 in a .223 case has been done by the silhouette guys multiple times -- 6.5 x 45 and 6.5 TCU being two examples. You get about 2200 fps for a 140 grain bullet out of a 15". http://www.lasc.us/RangingShotBullberry6.5TCU.htm

[Jeep]

A .45-70 Marlin Guide gun, cut to 12.5 LOP and a 16.25 barrel, carries small, hits big, and is top of the food chain for a general purpose, defensive long gun in area where the issues might also include larger four leg creatures.

A great round for the first shot, but with that light a rifle, how fast can you get off subsequent shots?

[BLR]

A great round for the first shot, but with that light a rifle, how fast can you get off subsequent shots?

Probably faster than you think.

I can do <1.5s follow up with my 71 in 450Alaskan, for reference. That is, keeping all shots on a 6" circle at 50yrds.

[Haraise]

A great round for the first shot, but with that light a rifle, how fast can you get off subsequent shots?

Been up all night running Quickload data... and the best answer I can think of is 'it depends.'

.45-70 is one name for a WIDE variety of rounds. It goes from 'bruising' to 'kills both ways.' (1700-3700 ft/lbs... 250-600 grains...)

[Dagga Boy]

Been up all night running Quickload data... and the best answer I can think of is 'it depends.'

.45-70 is one name for a WIDE variety of rounds. It goes from 'bruising' to 'kills both ways.' (1700-3700 ft/lbs... 250-600 grains...)

Truth. Had a 140 lb. SEAL shoot my 32" OAL 45-70 and he was sitting on his butt after the first shot so that can effect shot to shot times.....:cool: (not a dig on SEAL's as I know one on here who could run the thing like a boss, more about 140 pound dudes shooting it in his 5.56 stance). The 45-70's are cool because of the ability to run a lot of loads.

I am jealous of Bill's 450 Alaskan. A buddy of mine has one that I have been lusting after for years.

6.8 SPC to .450 Alaskan thread drift.....definitely on Pistol-Forum...;).

[GJM]

A great round for the first shot, but with that light a rifle, how fast can you get off subsequent shots?

I thought the whole point of the .45-70 was you don't need a second shot. :)

Kidding aside, similar to a 870 with slugs.

[witchking777]

Truth. Had a 140 lb. SEAL shoot my 32" OAL 45-70 and he was sitting on his butt after the first shot so that can effect shot to shot times.....:cool: (not a dig on SEAL's as I know one on here who could run the thing like a boss, more about 140 pound dudes shooting it in his 5.56 stance). The 45-70's are cool because of the ability to run a lot of loads.

I am jealous of Bill's 450 Alaskan. A buddy of mine has one that I have been lusting after for years.

6.8 SPC to .450 Alaskan thread drift.....definitely on Pistol-Forum...;).

any takers on 6.8-70????? lol

[DocGKR]

The .45-70 is one of my favorite cartridges; Ashley Emerson built me a nice 16.5" .45-70 stainless steel Guide Gun for wilderness protection against large critters--works great.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b580/DocGKR2/1895GS_zps59a8cde9.jpg

But I don't use it any more.

I spend substantially more time training and working with 870's; since a 12 ga. Brenneke slug can take down any hostile animal as well as the .45-70 at defensive ranges, I now rely on a 12 ga. for wilderness defense.

[GJM]

The .45-70 shines against the 12 gauge in the 75-150 yard range. Mine are 1-2 inch guns at 100 yards with Garrett 420 grain hard cast ammo (1,800 or so fps).

For North American defense, I am indifferent between shotgun and .45-70. As a combo defense and hunting long gun, the .45-70 is superior.

[Jeep]

Probably faster than you think.

I can do <1.5s follow up with my 71 in 450Alaskan, for reference. That is, keeping all shots on a 6" circle at 50yrds.

That is impressive. I would probably be nursing a sore shoulder and whining.

[Jeep]

The .45-70 shines against the 12 gauge in the 75-150 yard range. Mine are 1-2 inch guns at 100 yards with Garrett 420 grain hard cast ammo (1,800 or so fps).

For North American defense, I am indifferent between shotgun and .45-70. As a combo defense and hunting long gun, the .45-70 is superior.

Speaking of sore shoulders! That is moving for a load that heavy, but it ought to very effective.

[jlw]

The biggest issue with using a levergun for social work is the challenge of attaching a light to it. Yes, you can use a scout rail and a VTAC mount, but that puts the light back so far that shadow casting is a problem. The barrel bands that I have see with a rail attachment are rather expensive, and you also have a shadow issue there.

Hopefully, someone will read this and post a very simple option that I have not run across in my copious searching on the matter.

[GJM]

The biggest issue with using a levergun for social work is the challenge of attaching a light to it. Yes, you can use a scout rail and a VTAC mount, but that puts the light back so far that shadow casting is a problem. The barrel bands that I have see with a rail attachment are rather expensive, and you also have a shadow issue there.

Hopefully, someone will read this and post a very simple option that I have not run across in my copious searching on the matter.

All my lever guns are set up for a light. Attach a de-horned bit of Weaver rail to the fore end. Will look for a photo.

[DocGKR]

"The .45-70 shines against the 12 gauge in the 75-150 yard range."

Yup, my .45-70 is definitely more accurate beyond 100 yds than my 12 ga. slug guns--but it is unlikely that I would need to take a defensive shot against a large predator at ranges beyond 100 yds.


"As a combo defense and hunting long gun, the .45-70 is superior."

Unless you need to hunt birds, rabbits, or other such critters, then the .45-70 does not work as well as a 12 ga....

[jlw]

All my lever guns are set up for a light. Attach a de-horned bit of Weaver rail to the fore end. Will look for a photo.

The problem with being that far back with the light is that anything to the right will actually be a shadow versus that of a full cone of light if the light were out further towards the muzzle. Yes, it is better than no light, but it isn't ideal either.

[GJM]

In Alaska, the Guide Gun is commonly used moose and deer hunting, in areas frequented by brown bears. The Guide Gun is also used bear hunting.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/DSC00554Medium.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/DSC00554Medium.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/DSC00486Small.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/DSC00486Small.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/DSC00561Small.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/DSC00561Small.jpg.html)

Here is the light mount:


http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/leverlight_zps10add354.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/leverlight_zps10add354.jpg.html)

[Malamute]

The biggest issue with using a levergun for social work is the challenge of attaching a light to it. Yes, you can use a scout rail and a VTAC mount, but that puts the light back so far that shadow casting is a problem. The barrel bands that I have see with a rail attachment are rather expensive, and you also have a shadow issue there.

Hopefully, someone will read this and post a very simple option that I have not run across in my copious searching on the matter.

I came up with something thats working for me. I didnt care for the looks of anything commercial I saw, or the scout type rails, I just wanted a simple light mount, and one that didnt detract too much from the lines of the gun or have weaver type rails which are large, unattractive to me, and could snag. I used a Ruger ring base, a factory base for the No 1 Varmint (two piece base set). The 1" Ruger ring fits the 6P I intended to use. I had the base milled as thin as possible to the side cuts the ring grabs, and the correct diameter for the mag tube. I shortened it also. I had the friendly local Gunsmith silver solder it to the mag tube on the side. I can easily reach the switch button on the light when in shooting position. When its off, it doesnt look too bad compared to larger base types and will go in a scabbard without snagging.

I dont seem to get the bad shadow in the light pattern. Theres a bit less light pattern on the right, but it looks like the lense is low enough that it shines a decent pattern.

Cant get into my photobucket on this computer, but theres a couple pics here.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4447-carbine-light-placement/page7

As to 45-70 (or other rifle calibers) for small game etc, I use round ball or collar button bullet loads for grouse and furred small game. Makes little noise and pops them well without much damage.

I like the range a rifle gives me to cover my dog when out.

[BobM]

The biggest issue with using a levergun for social work is the challenge of attaching a light to it. Yes, you can use a scout rail and a VTAC mount, but that puts the light back so far that shadow casting is a problem. The barrel bands that I have see with a rail attachment are rather expensive, and you also have a shadow issue there.

Hopefully, someone will read this and post a very simple option that I have not run across in my copious searching on the matter.

Hill People Gear is working on a lever action light mount. There might be a pic of a prototype on their site.

[GJM]

Hill People Gear is working on a lever action light mount. There might be a pic of a prototype on their site.

I just searched, and there is a photo on their Facebook page. They make great stuff, but you wouldn't catch me putting that mount on my lever gun.

[witchking777]

Well heck I might as well throw in my lever gun,a Savage Model 99E in .308 Winchester,killed more critters with that than I can count

[GJM]

Well heck I might as well throw in my lever gun,a Savage Model 99E in .308 Winchester,killed more critters with that than I can count

Jeff Cooper was very fond of that rifle.

[Haraise]

Has anyone tried a CDM Gear light mount on a lever action?

[Odin Bravo One]

Hill People Gear is working on a lever action light mount. There might be a pic of a prototype on their site.

I used a generic, $12.00, 80's/90's flashlight mounting band. Smaller diameter on the magazine, larger diameter on a whatever light fits best, screw through the middle. On the .357 this is not an issue at all.

On the Guide Gun, I tossed whatever light into an offset mount on an XS top rail/sight set up.

Am I going to have some shadow? Yes.
Am I going to have some light? Yes.
Enough to PID/IFF? Yes.
Is it enough to matter in a "Social work" situation with a 45-70? Not that I can think of.

Unless the definition of "Social work" in use is drastically different than mine.

The entire set up set me back less than $100. At what quality .45-70 rounds cost + training ammo + initial expense of the gun.........that $100 for a front sight, rear sight, top rail system, and light mount seemed prefectly reasonable additional costs.

It too has held up over the course of a 100 round session. I'm a firm believer in train/plan on worst case scenario, but I cannot envision carrying, let alone needing .45-70 for more than 100 consecutive rounds to resolve a "socia work" situation.

And if I can ever find a dang H&R Handi-rifle in .45-70 at H&R prices.........I'll rig the same light set up for it as well............

[Lester Polfus]

Am I going to have some shadow? Yes.
Am I going to have some light? Yes.
Enough to PID/IFF? Yes.
Is it enough to matter in a "Social work" situation with a 45-70? Not that I can think of.


I agree. I've created mounts for both a .30-30 lever gun, and my .308 bolt gun by screwing a piece of rail to side of the forened. Both had a less light on the off side, which really bugged me in an OCD way, but after working with them a bit, I found it was more than sufficient to 1) See a human being at at ranges I could reasonably justify shooting 2) identify them 3) see what they had in their hands 4) see what was behind them and 5) ascertain if they needed to be shot.

I see people people posting pictures of their light mounts on the internets pretty frequently where somebody says "EhrmaGawd! It'll have a SHADOW!" but I found it doesn't really matter when I"m using it.

[witchking777]

Jeff Cooper was very fond of that rifle.

As am I! With my reloads it'll punch nickel sized groups at 100 yds(not hot reloads mind you),I love it,was my grandpas back in the 50's,my dad refinished the stock when he was 12 and gave it to me when I was 14,shot two deer and tons of coyotes,rabbits,and squirrels with it,this year elk hunting shot about a foot over a mountain lions back at about 750 yds,would grab it for the zombie apocalypse anytime lol

[GJM]

As am I! With my reloads it'll punch nickel sized groups at 100 yds(not hot reloads mind you),I love it,was my grandpas back in the 50's,my dad refinished the stock when he was 12 and gave it to me when I was 14,shot two deer and tons of coyotes,rabbits,and squirrels with it,this year elk hunting shot about a foot over a mountain lions back at about 750 yds,would grab it for the zombie apocalypse anytime lol

Need photo of your Savage!

[witchking777]

Will post asap

[ToddG]

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/DSC00561Small.jpg

Does this qualify GJM as a Furry?






















(and before you go thinking yourself witty for saying, "no, it makes him a Horny" ... no, you did't think of it first)

[GJM]

It qualifies me as an idiot. My wife shot that moose four (4!) miles from the float plane, and it took us FOUR days to hump that moose meat out. We now have a rule, of one foot of the moose in the water reachable by floats or inflatable canoe. We took that too literally this fall, as the moose I shot ended up in the water. As in submerged.

[ToddG]

We also have a rule: whoever makes reservations first picks where we eat that night.

Next time I'm somewhere that serves moose I'll have some and raise an iced tea toast to you and the Mrs.

[oldtexan]

Where can I find an up-to-date list of recommended 6.8 factory loads for the various types of targets and uses, i.e. deer, pigs, shooting through glass, home defense, etc? I found a list over at ar15.com but that data looks like it was prepared several years ago and is likely somewhat dated.

Such a list might make a good sticky.

[SLG]

Where can I find an up-to-date list of recommended 6.8 factory loads for the various types of targets and uses, i.e. deer, pigs, shooting through glass, home defense, etc? I found a list over at ar15.com but that data looks like it was prepared several years ago and is likely somewhat dated.

Such a list might make a good sticky.

Please stop ruining this thread drift with on topic questions. The pictures and drift are much more interesting!

[oldtexan]

Please stop ruining this thread drift with on topic questions. The pictures and drift are much more interesting! :D

[ranger]

Where can I find an up-to-date list of recommended 6.8 factory loads for the various types of targets and uses, i.e. deer, pigs, shooting through glass, home defense, etc? I found a list over at ar15.com but that data looks like it was prepared several years ago and is likely somewhat dated.

Such a list might make a good sticky.

http://68forums.com/forums/forum.php

I just built a 6.8 16 inch upper and I have been looking at the 68forums for reload data and ammo data.

[SLG]

:D

Besides, with a name like oldtexan, surly the leverguns are more better than the 6.8? :p

[Dagga Boy]

We also have a rule: whoever makes reservations first picks where we eat that night.

Next time I'm somewhere that serves moose I'll have some and raise an iced tea toast to you and the Mrs.

I see you are in the Jewish Camping side of the equation as well. When we went "camping" as kids, we stayed in really nice condos in the woods.......I never understood the kids who slept in dirt and stayed in tents, but whatever.

[ToddG]

I'm pretty sure I've said this before but my wife tells people, "Todd's idea of camping is a hotel with an outdoor pool."

[Dagga Boy]

I'm pretty sure I've said this before but my wife tells people, "Todd's idea of camping is a hotel with an outdoor pool."

This is one area where we see eye to eye.

[witchking777]

Dude this is awesome,start a thread about ammo and finish with lever guns and camping lol I love it! So in all seriousness what do I need to switch to 6.8? Barrel,bolt,mags? Do I need a new barrel extension? How about .300 blackout with the 110 gr barnes tsx in a 16" barrel?

[WDW]

Who doesn't like camping?? Putting up a tent, a roaring fire, the sound of mischievous raccoons scurrying about???

[witchking777]

Who doesn't like camping?? Putting up a tent, a roaring fire, the sound of mischievous raccoons scurrying about???
Lol ah but which caliber do I need for coons??

[BLR]

Dude this is awesome,start a thread about ammo and finish with lever guns and camping lol I love it! So in all seriousness what do I need to switch to 6.8? Barrel,bolt,mags? Do I need a new barrel extension? How about .300 blackout with the 110 gr barnes tsx in a 16" barrel?

Mags and a nice upper. I suggest a 16" bbl, PRI tube.

[Jeep]

Who doesn't like camping?? Putting up a tent, a roaring fire, the sound of mischievous raccoons scurrying about???


Personally, I did enough "camping" when I wore green to cure me for a lifetime. Scorpions in boots, coral snakes crawling over you, staying wet for a week or two because of constant rains (with, of course, the resulting immersion foot), and the most fun of all, sleeping in "snow caves" when the wind chill is -70.

[LSP972]

Personally, I did enough "camping" when I wore green to cure me for a lifetime..

This... 1000X this.

Plus, well over half of a 30-year career working out in the weather (either on the road or on the range)... I'm with Todd. An outdoor pool is the definition of "roughing it".

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[TR675]

This seems relevant.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/22/8a68a2cc39e2748715e04ae701927680.jpg

[Dagga Boy]

Sort of mimics the DB's theory on military operations.........If you can't drive to it on a highway, it isn't worth taking.

[LSP972]

This seems relevant.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/22/8a68a2cc39e2748715e04ae701927680.jpg

Hah. The definition of "abject misery".

BTDT; never again.

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[SecondsCount]

I would just like to say thanks to all those that took a moment to post their experiences with the three calibers. Lots of useful information.

As a long range target shooter and varmint hunter, I'm a fan of long, lean, high BC bullets or something with velocity. With that in mind, I have always gravitated toward the 6.5 Grendel/Les Baer although I own neither it or a 6.8, and get where Alpha Sierra is coming from. From a ballistics standpoint, I think the 6.8 is only a slight improvement over the standard 5.56 loadings.

For those that shoot inside a couple hundred yards then this isn't a big issue but recent military actions have required the use of a round that can reach further. While probably not something useful for the typical defensive use, living out in the West I get lots of opportunities to shoot beyond 100 yards, and get bored shooting my rifles/carbines inside that range unless I am going for groups.

I am sure Sean M will chime in and say that anything under a 300 WM isn't enough. :D

[Rich]

http://www.nssf.org/safety/lit/EthicalHunter.pdf

I don't hunt moose ! but if one came at me I would unload on him.

Or TEOTWAWKI lost /stranded in the woods I wouldn't have a problem with it either.

BTW When I was a teenager I would climb a tree in order to bush whack WT deer. Things I use to do LOL.
I haven't hunted since the move but If I go back I would take it up again. stalking deer .rabbit/squirrel / calling.

[ranger]

This seems relevant.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/22/8a68a2cc39e2748715e04ae701927680.jpg

I've got that tshirt and a bunch more like them. I will never forget when I came home from a 3 week 7th ID Lightfighter "camping trip" and my wife announced she was bored and wanted to go camping - I was a toxic leader that day.

[breakingtime91]

This seems relevant.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/22/8a68a2cc39e2748715e04ae701927680.jpg

Pretty much what happened to me. Got stuck in a storm for 26 hours outside the wire and then it down-poured for 5 hours after it dissipated. I lost my excitement for beaches and the outdoors.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I was never in the army. On the other hand, I grew up on an island of the west coast of Canada, and now I live where Arcteryx was invented. I've roughed it through some serious misery, like a winter run of Cape Scott.

I still camp, all year, as often as possible.

Some people are just gluttons for punishment.