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View Full Version : Thoughts on S&W 60 and other chief special type revolvers



Symmetry
12-09-2014, 02:53 PM
So the extent of my revolver experiences are playing around with my dad's old service weapons from the 1980s in .38 and .357. I don't necessarily need one, but I'd like to get an older chief special from the 1980s or something else of great quality in .38spl. I'll train with it and might CCW it on occasion, but it might end up being mostly a fun gun. I'd also like to get into reloading for .38spl. Right now I CCW a Sig P239 9mm. I've seen some 1980s S&W 60s in stainless here and there, but I'd like to know what the revolver experts think. Thanks.

Hizzie
12-09-2014, 06:24 PM
Depends on what you really want out of it. The Ruger SP101's are much more shoot able than the Smith&Wesson j frames.

Dagga Boy
12-09-2014, 07:18 PM
If you are not looking for an Airweight type back up, then I agree with Hizzie on the SP-101. I would also look at the 2" K frames as also being far easier to shoot well.

JR1572
12-09-2014, 07:25 PM
If you are not looking for an Airweight type back up, then I agree with Hizzie on the SP-101. I would also look at the 2" K frames as also being far easier to shoot well.

I'm looking for a 2 inch k frame right now, preferably a 66...

JR1572

Dagga Boy
12-09-2014, 08:26 PM
I'm looking for a 2 inch k frame right now, preferably a 66...

JR1572

That will be a 2 1/2. Only the fixed sight guns are 2". The best of the 66's is the 3".

JR1572
12-09-2014, 08:28 PM
That will be a 2 1/2. Only the fixed sight guns are 2". The best of the 66's is the 3".

Gotcha. I may have a line on a 2.5 66...

JR1572

Tamara
12-09-2014, 08:43 PM
I still like an Airweight J, like a 637, 638, or 442. I think that, for any practical using purposes, they've more or less completely replaced the all-steel guns.

LSP972
12-09-2014, 08:51 PM
That will be a 2 1/2. Only the fixed sight guns are 2". The best of the 66's is the 3".

Actually, I have a 2" M-66. Granted, its a SB 66 with a 2" 64 barrel on it, and is about the goofiest-looking thing you've ever seen. But it is one hell of a CQB/shower/car gun…;)

.

Lost River
12-09-2014, 09:01 PM
Personally I'd opt for an airweight Centennial such as a 442 or a 642, as a "best of breed".

They are fun guns to shoot with the right loads. A truly fun lightweight range, and even small game hunting load is a 148 ish grain full wadcutter and 2.3 grains of Clays. Actually there are a number of fun wadcutter loads out there. I've run heavy 5plus grains of Clays loads, but cannot recommend it in a snubby.

UNIQUE is another excellent powder.

Punching decent groups with a little J Frame and target wadcutters is quite satisfying! :)

SeriousStudent
12-09-2014, 09:11 PM
I have a Model 60 in .357. I am definitely not any kind of revolver expert.

It is exceedingly accurate. Sample of one, and all that. Of all my pistols, it's far and away the best shooter.

But as Tam and others point out, my 642 has replaced it for all but coldest of winter carry. The Model 60 is primarily used for full-power practice sessions, and the Model 43c is used for J frame practice with 22 LR.

I do like it in a parka pocket when I am filling the car with gas in winter. Remove hose from tank, spray with gas, and then ignite the evildoer with one of nyeti's flash-bangs. In Texas, that's pretty much just January.

LSP972
12-10-2014, 08:48 AM
OP, many of us who use J frames have at least two; one lightweight (AirWeight or AirLite) for carry, one steel frame for training/practice.

A steel J frame is around 21 ounces unloaded; about the same as a G26, and more than some other QUALITY mini-9mm pistols. The "new breed" steel J frames, with magnum cylinders and 2.2" barrels, weigh even more. You gotta really want one to justify carrying it over a G26, et. al.

OTOH, a standard alloy frame AirWeight is 15 ounces empty, while an AirLite with titanium cylinder is 13 or so ounces. Now you're talking real carry comfort; not so much fun to shoot, though.

If what you're looking for is a fun .38 Special launcher, you'll probably be happier with a larger-framed six, seven, or eight-shooter. Although, those heavy-ass magnum J frames are kind of neat since they are rather small and don't pound your hand with .38 target loads. But carry one? Not me...

.

Tamara
12-10-2014, 09:22 AM
The Airweights are right at the bottom limit of what I can shoot without it being physically uncomfortable.

I honestly believe that most people who carry the Ti/Sc Magnum AirLites are kidding themselves about their ability to employ them effectively.

The all-steel guns are heavy enough that they really want a belt holster, and if it's in a holster on my belt, it's gonna be something more serious than a 5-shot Chief's Special. I mean, once you're talking about a Bianchi #3S Pistol Pocket snapped to your belt, there's very little difference in ease of carry between a 2" J and a 3" K.

LSP972
12-10-2014, 09:28 AM
The all-steel guns are heavy enough that they really want a belt holster, and if it's in a holster on my belt, it's gonna be something more serious than a 5-shot Chief's Special. .


Exactly.

And you're right about most folks and their AirLites. I'll confess to doing something, twice, that while fundamentally wrong, I still felt was the right thing to do.

Ever had someone ask for your help, who you KNEW had no business being around firearms? Hand them an AirLite loaded with +Ps, tell them all guns shoot like this, and you can pretty well discourage any further interest.

.

Jeep
12-10-2014, 09:41 AM
I like steel J frames, but they don't have much of a practical role for me--I carry an airweight instead.

However, I have found that the make very good home defense weapons for older people (women especially) with small hands. They generally can manage the recoil of a target wadcutter in a steel gun, and the size works. However, J frames tend to have tough triggers, which can present a problem. It helps to lighten the trigger pull, if you can do so without causing light primer strikes or skipping chambers.

Otherwise, though I'd say that steel J frames (except in .22 caliber) have pretty much had their day.

LSP972
12-10-2014, 11:21 AM
It helps to lighten the trigger pull, if you can do so without causing light primer strikes or skipping chambers.


AKA Apex kit.

"Skipping chambers" is usually caused by short-stroking the trigger on the DA stroke, but can be the result of an over-enthusiastic spring-clipper.

J frames use a coil, as opposed to flat, main spring. That changes things pretty dramatically, in terms of what you do to make a "lighter" trigger pull. IOW, unless one is VERY well-versed in J frame intricacies, best to leave that dog alone and use PROPER replacement main and trigger rebound springs; i.e., Apex parts.

.

Tamara
12-10-2014, 01:00 PM
However, I have found that the make very good home defense weapons for older people (women especially) with small hands. They generally can manage the recoil of a target wadcutter in a steel gun, and the size works.

The 3" heavy-barrrel square-butt configuration of the Model 36 was sometimes used for this very role. Plus it looks like a Model 10 someone left in the dryer too long.

JHC
12-10-2014, 01:25 PM
I like steel J frames, but they don't have much of a practical role for me--I carry an airweight instead.

However, I have found that the make very good home defense weapons for older people (women especially) with small hands. They generally can manage the recoil of a target wadcutter in a steel gun, and the size works. However, J frames tend to have tough triggers, which can present a problem. It helps to lighten the trigger pull, if you can do so without causing light primer strikes or skipping chambers.

Otherwise, though I'd say that steel J frames (except in .22 caliber) have pretty much had their day.

3" Model 36s are pretty sweet little guns.

ScotchMan
12-10-2014, 02:39 PM
I like steel J frames, but they don't have much of a practical role for me--I carry an airweight instead.

However, I have found that the make very good home defense weapons for older people (women especially) with small hands. They generally can manage the recoil of a target wadcutter in a steel gun, and the size works. However, J frames tend to have tough triggers, which can present a problem. It helps to lighten the trigger pull, if you can do so without causing light primer strikes or skipping chambers.

Otherwise, though I'd say that steel J frames (except in .22 caliber) have pretty much had their day.

Agreed. My dad has a 3" Model 60 that he loves. I think it's silly to have a 5 shot revolver with a 3" barrel and that weighs that much, but he just has a thing for J-frames. I showed him my golden era Model 65 with the best revolver trigger I've ever felt and he wasn't moved. Between a P229 Enhanced Elite and that Model 60, if the door got kicked down tomorrow, I think he'd probably go for the J. So there is definitely something about steel J's to some people.

ACP230
12-10-2014, 03:20 PM
I am partial to the M649 in .38 Special. Pocket carry in blue jeans works well for me.

Also like the M38, the Airweight version of the design. All have Uncle Mike's rubber
Boot Grips. One came with them and I installed them on the other two. The M38 is
even easier to carry but less accurate to shoot.

My youngest son has an M60 with Herett grips. It shoots very accurately and the
larger grips may have something to do with that.

Another set of interesting snubs are the M15s. K-frames with six shots. I shoot
them better than the various J-frames most of the time. (A J will surprise from time to time.)

camsdaddy
12-10-2014, 04:01 PM
I have a model 60 with a bobbed hammer. I carry it daily in my right front pocket. I prefer my 60 to my air weight because I shoot it better. Even though its the same weight as my Glock 26 the shape is much easier for pocket carry.

Wheeler
12-11-2014, 05:28 AM
I have a cosmetically challenged Model 36 3" that I carry quite regularly. I much prefer it to any SP101 I've shot or handled, personal preference being what it is and all. I carry it IWB with a set of pachs on it. Claude was good enough to help me do some tweaking such as a hammer bob, rounded trigger and chamfered cylinders. The difference in cylinder size between it and a k frame is just enough to be the difference between mild annoyance after all day vs. actual discomfort. YMMV of course.

Jeep
12-11-2014, 11:52 AM
AKA Apex kit.

"Skipping chambers" is usually caused by short-stroking the trigger on the DA stroke, but can be the result of an over-enthusiastic spring-clipper.

J frames use a coil, as opposed to flat, main spring. That changes things pretty dramatically, in terms of what you do to make a "lighter" trigger pull. IOW, unless one is VERY well-versed in J frame intricacies, best to leave that dog alone and use PROPER replacement main and trigger rebound springs; i.e., Apex parts.

.

I've found that with the Apex kit the lighter rebound slide spring can (but not always) result in short stroking and skipping chambers. I wish they had a spring with a weight between the Apex one and the factory spring.

Jeep
12-11-2014, 11:57 AM
3" Model 36s are pretty sweet little guns.

They are indeed. They are also amazingly accurate. I had a beat up older one that I slightly spruced up that would outshoot a friend's Model 10 or my Model 64 any day (and I think Models 10/64 are pretty accurate). I gave it to an older friend with small hands who lived in a bad area, wanted some protection, and preferred a revolver.

Wheeler
12-11-2014, 12:13 PM
I've found that with the Apex kit the lighter rebound slide spring can (but not always) result in short stroking and skipping chambers. I wish they had a spring with a weight between the Apex one and the factory spring.

Have you looked at Wollf Springs?

camsdaddy
12-11-2014, 12:15 PM
I've found that with the Apex kit the lighter rebound slide spring can (but not always) result in short stroking and skipping chambers. I wish they had a spring with a weight between the Apex one and the factory spring.

I installed the APEX kit in my 642 I had when they came out. I think by the time I made changes to prevent me from short stroking I only kept the firing pin out of the kit and the rest was stock.

Jeep
12-11-2014, 01:07 PM
Have you looked at Wollf Springs?

I have, but have had better luck with the Apex kits. I should note, though, that some of that might be a reflection of my incompetence rather than the respective kits themselves.

LSP972
12-11-2014, 01:38 PM
I've found that with the Apex kit the lighter rebound slide spring can (but not always) result in short stroking and skipping chambers. I wish they had a spring with a weight between the Apex one and the factory spring.

Hmmm... I've installed almost a dozen of those kits on various 442s and 642s (including my 342), and nobody has complained about it yet. Are you talking about the Centennial kit, where they give you a new firing pin and spring in addition to the lighter rebound slide spring, or a kit for a "conventiona" J frame?

.

Jeep
12-11-2014, 03:02 PM
Hmmm... I've installed almost a dozen of those kits on various 442s and 642s (including my 342), and nobody has complained about it yet. Are you talking about the Centennial kit, where they give you a new firing pin and spring in addition to the lighter rebound slide spring, or a kit for a "conventiona" J frame?

.

The ones I've used were conventional J frame kits. Worked well on a Model 60 but not on a Model 36; works ok on a 637, and a 3" Model 36, but on both of those I wouldn't mind a slightly stronger rebound slide spring--but not stock. Maybe I'm too picky or, like I say above, maybe I'm just incompetent.

Symmetry
12-21-2014, 01:25 PM
Thanks for all the advice. I think I'm leaning towards a modern airweight S&W, and installing an APEX on it(just don't like the full weight DAO trigger). Just trying to decide between the model 642, or the M&P340. I like that the M&P340 has a removable front night sight, and that that it has the option of using .38 or .357. Not that I'd really want to shoot .357......I shot full power 125gr .357 in an airweight a year ago, and I don't want to do that again.

45dotACP
12-21-2014, 05:36 PM
My model 36 was able to accept an Apex kit. Trigger could be smoother, but the weight on the DA stroke isnt a zillion pounds anymore

RevolverRob
12-30-2014, 03:50 PM
Remember, the M&P340 is quite a bit lighter than the 642 (when one weighs 15 ounces and the other 12 ounces, that is 20% lighter). Those three ounces make all of the difference in the world shooting wise, in my opinion. I maintain, if I was only going to own one gun for the whole rest of my life, it would be a 442 or 642.

JodyH
12-30-2014, 11:02 PM
I find that the extreme light weight of the scandium j frames makes trigger control very difficult. The light weight gun is hard to keep still over the duration of the long, stiff trigger pull.
The 442 is just a better gun when it come to shooting.

Hizzie
12-31-2014, 11:30 AM
My SP101 firing hot 125gr 357 magnum loads (wearing pachmayr grips) is more pleasant to shoot than my 642 with 158gr +P LSWCHP's.

Tamara
12-31-2014, 01:13 PM
Remember, the M&P340 is quite a bit lighter than the 642 (when one weighs 15 ounces and the other 12 ounces, that is 20% lighter). Those three ounces make all of the difference in the world shooting wise, in my opinion.

Word up.

LHS
01-06-2015, 08:22 PM
For a while, I shot a (for lack of a better term) outlaw IDPA match with my 642 from a left-hand pocket holster. It really helped hammer in some of the truths about a J-frame's limitations and capabilities. I find that I can shoot a 642 with wadcutters pretty well without pain or suffering... to a point. The day after a 400rd BUG class, I couldn't close either hand. I certainly don't want to ever shoot magnum loads through a Ti/Sc frame snubby. No thank you, mild .38 wadcutters will do juuuuuust fine.

Symmetry
01-06-2015, 09:40 PM
I went ahead and got the M&P 340. First two rounds of Speer .38spl 135gr+P Gold Dots felt okay, but 3-5 got steadily more painful.....then I realized I was making a mistake by choking up high on the grip. The web of my hand was up against the alloy frame right at the point an exposed hammer would be. I'm so used to shooting semi autos that I realized I needed to bring my grip down, and allow the gun to rock back a tad into my palm while my fingers on the front strap and rubber grips absorbed the recoil. Made a BIG difference. Went through a full 100rds of the GDs, and threw in some AE 130gr FMJ for good measure. Still working on getting the trigger down, since again I am not used to such a strong, DA trigger. Took some pointers from an old timer on curling my trigger finger around the trigger more to "stage" the trigger, and my accuracy and timing greatly improved. Hand was a little sore, but I think most of that occurred when I was shooting the +Ps with an improper grip. I might try some short barrel .357mag Gold Dots when I can find them.

Any opinions on the APEX J-frame trigger kit? A 9lb trigger pull sounds very appealing, and it would more closely match the DA/SA triggers I use on Sigs.
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p637/scottomega76/DSC01245_zps6e5baddc.jpg (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/scottomega76/media/DSC01245_zps6e5baddc.jpg.html)

SeriousStudent
01-06-2015, 09:56 PM
I have put an Apex J-frame kit into a 642, and really liked the results. I put a second one into my 442, and liked how it turned out as well. Alas, they do not make one for the 43c.

Skintop911 had less optimal results with his J-frame kit, you might want to check with him also.

Sigfan26
01-06-2015, 10:18 PM
I went ahead and got the M&P 340. First two rounds of Speer .38spl 135gr+P Gold Dots felt okay, but 3-5 got steadily more painful.....then I realized I was making a mistake by choking up high on the grip. The web of my hand was up against the alloy frame right at the point an exposed hammer would be. I'm so used to shooting semi autos that I realized I needed to bring my grip down, and allow the gun to rock back a tad into my palm while my fingers on the front strap and rubber grips absorbed the recoil. Made a BIG difference. Went through a full 100rds of the GDs, and threw in some AE 130gr FMJ for good measure. Still working on getting the trigger down, since again I am not used to such a strong, DA trigger. Took some pointers from an old timer on curling my trigger finger around the trigger more to "stage" the trigger, and my accuracy and timing greatly improved. Hand was a little sore, but I think most of that occurred when I was shooting the +Ps with an improper grip. I might try some short barrel .357mag Gold Dots when I can find them.

Any opinions on the APEX J-frame trigger kit? A 9lb trigger pull sounds very appealing, and it would more closely match the DA/SA triggers I use on Sigs.
http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p637/scottomega76/DSC01245_zps6e5baddc.jpg (http://s1159.photobucket.com/user/scottomega76/media/DSC01245_zps6e5baddc.jpg.html)

I've had them in 2 j frames without issue (and love them... Wouldn't go back).

Hizzie
01-07-2015, 12:22 PM
I have a Model 60 in .357. I am definitely not any kind of revolver expert.

It is exceedingly accurate. Sample of one, and all that. Of all my pistols, it's far and away the best shooter.

But as Tam and others point out, my 642 has replaced it for all but coldest of winter carry. The Model 60 is primarily used for full-power practice sessions, and the Model 43c is used for J frame practice with 22 LR.

I do like it in a parka pocket when I am filling the car with gas in winter. Remove hose from tank, spray with gas, and then ignite the evildoer with one of nyeti's flash-bangs. In Texas, that's pretty much just January.

And only about one week at that.

RevolverRob
01-07-2015, 12:35 PM
In Texas, that's pretty much just January.


And only about one week at that.

I am increasingly convinced the great Chicago fire was started by a southerner who just wanted it to be warm for a few hours. I say that, because sometimes, when it is -4 outside with a windchill of -35, I think about how much warmer it could be if the entire city was on fire....

-Rob

Dagga Boy
01-07-2015, 01:29 PM
I just inherited an older model 49. The action is strangely good with that just plain worn in feel. I can't wait to shoot it. That extra weight sucks to carry, but great for shooting. The old steel J frames and snub K's along with the Colt Det. Special size guns were really how many of the older guys carried AIWB, and they are still good in this role. Heavy for pockets, but not bad in a holster.