View Full Version : Why do we encourage folks to live fire from appendix carry?
I am not sure why folks, who also carry three o'clock for work, gun games, or otherwise, do much live fire practice from appendix. The difference between AIWB and three o'clock, is the draw, and dry fire is a very efficient way to practice drawing.
A few years ago, I made a decision to live fire from OWB and dry fire from appendix. A week or two ago, I forgot my OWB holster at home, and did my live fire session with a G19 out of my AIWB holster. First real live fire appendix session in a year or more, and my live fire confirmed that dry fire worked as I expected.
The law of large numbers says, regardless of platform and technique, the more people doing something such as AIWB, the greater the likelihood of an ND. And with AIWB, regardless of the odds, the stakes are enormous. I think there are a number of reasons folks live fire from AIWB -- some good and most bad. A good reason being that is the ONLY way they carry, and don't want to learn a different draw. Some bad reasons are: it is perceived as cool, they never considered an alternative like dry fire AIWB draw practice, and the vanity of wanting a .1 or .2 faster draw from concealment over concealed OWB when doing PF oriented drills.
I recognize each person gets to decide, but I would like folks to consider there are alternatives, given the stakes.
Trooper224
12-07-2014, 10:38 AM
If a person chooses to use any particular carry method they should be practicing live fire from that method. If a shooter feels the risks of a particular carry method are great enough to exclude drawing/holstering from it during live fire practice what do they think the results will be off the square range under stress? If a carry method can't be used regularly for live fire practice because of safety concerns then there's something inherently wrong with that method. I'm not saying that AIWB carry shouldn't be used, I'm just trying to follow your logic which I find a bit questionable. Repetition breeds efficiency with anything, including the act of holstering a loaded weapon.
Before I answer this further, I should ask whether you regularly dry fire, and if so, why you believe live fire is efficient or necessary in practicing your draw?
psalms144.1
12-07-2014, 11:01 AM
My two cents, and again, from a guy who's just too fat to get around to AIWB.
I liken this discussion to the pervasive, soul-sucking horror that is clearing barrels in the military. If you are forward deployed on a "base," you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a clearing barrel. The Army is ESPECIALLY anally-retentive about this, spastically loading, clearing, reloading, clearing, etc throughout the day. Turning out for duty? Load up. Going into the chow hall? Clear (because a loaded weapon in the chow hall is MUCH more dangerous than a loaded weapon on the street, apparently). Back to duty? Load up. Sent over to a HQs bldg as a runner? Clear before entering. Then load when leaving. Is it any wonder that the Army has a HORRIFICALLY high ND rate (especially when you combine the generally nearly non-existent training most soldiers receive on weapons handling)? AND that the majority of these NDs occur at/near clearing barrels? The moral - LOAD IT, HOLSTER IT, LEAVE IT THE KITTEN ALONE, and it won't go bang when you don't want it to.
The same holds true with live fire training. UNLESS YOU ARE DELIBERATE AND HAVE BEEN PROPERLY TRAINED IN SAFE WEAPONS HANDLING, the more you draw/reholster live, the higher the probability that Murphy will mess up your day. As properly noted, a visit from Murphy while drawing/holstering AIWB has consequences that will LIKELY far outweigh those of other modes of carry.
Where am I going with this ramble? Here - we would all be MUCH better off if everyone with a firearm had proper training, and we all adhered to the thought of 80% dry fire to 20% live fire. Make the mistakes when the consequences are small (dry fire) and develop/adopt GOOD gun-handling procedures, then transfer those to live fire.
I've watched some folks who shouldn't have a loaded gun ever, and frankly scare the ever-living dog-kitten out of me everytime they show up on my range. On the other hand, watching some of y'all in action, and I would be willing to stand next to whatever target you were engaging, because your approach, regardless of speed of execution, is methodical, deliberate, and smooth. And how did they get that way - deliberate, well thought out training.
Regards,
Kevin
StraitR
12-07-2014, 11:03 AM
I must have done thousands of presentations with a SIRT pistol out of a Keepers concealment holster, closely scrutinizing (even took video of myself) my trigger finger and where the prep laser first appears, long before I ever carried my Glock. Even after that, and to this day, anytime I present from appendix on the live fire range I get the willies. No matter how many times I visually and manually clear the holster, or how slow and methodical I reholstered, a little part of me would cringe until I heard the "click" of the gun finally settling into the kydex.
After a long hiatus from the platform, I've recently changed back (not for carry/safety reasons) to a gun which happens to have a manual safety. While I still adamantly acknowledge and respect the dangers of AIWB carry, the squeamish fear is gone now that I can ride that manual safety into the holster.
Anyone contemplating AIWB carry, and even for those that have already committed, I can't recommend the SIRT pistol enough. The training feedback is invaluable, both for progression and confidence.
JodyH
12-07-2014, 11:07 AM
Before I answer this further, I should ask whether you regularly dry fire, and if so, why you believe live fire is efficient or necessary in practicing your draw?
Dry fire does not give the same feedback on grip that live fire does.
You can get away with obtaining a slightly sloppy grip while doing dry fire, your grip has to be perfect for a solid Bill Drill.
Getting your grip from AIWB is significantly different than getting one from AOWB and completely different than strong side OWB.
Sight alignment at the moment of trigger press can only be really determined by where the bullet hole is in the target.
Even a laser or Sirt isn't as accurate of an indicator as where the bullet punches a hole on paper.
The path between the holster and full extension is completely different between AIWB and strong side and getting that true bullet hole feedback on paper is mandatory.
This is especially true for beginner and intermediate shooters because they don't have nearly as many good repetitions under their belt to make educated evaluations while dry firing.
If you're at the point you can accurately "call your shot" while live fire then you can probably call your shot dry, but getting to that point requires a lot of live fire from your carry position.
You (GJM) don't see the need for as much live fire because you know what a good shot feels and looks like and can call your shots live and dry.
Put yourself in a beginners shoes where you don't have a clue (maybe a vague idea at best) where the bullets hit until you walked up to the target, those folks need the live fire feedback. Dry fire may feel good to them but the paper will tell a completely different story.
The paradox is the people most likely to have an accident are the ones who need the most live reps.
Dry fire does not give the same feedback on grip that live fire does.
You can get away with obtaining a slightly sloppy grip while doing dry fire, your grip has to be perfect for a solid Bill Drill.
Getting your grip from AIWB is significantly different than getting one from AOWB and completely different than strong side OWB.
Sight alignment at the moment of trigger press can only be really determined by where the bullet hole is in the target.
Even a laser or Sirt isn't as accurate of an indicator as where the bullet punches a hole on paper.
The path between the holster and full extension is completely different between AIWB and strong side and getting that true bullet hole feedback on paper is mandatory.
This is especially true for beginner and intermediate shooters because they don't have nearly as many good repetitions under their belt to make educated evaluations while dry firing.
If you're at the point you can accurately "call your shot" while live fire then you can probably call your shot dry, but getting to that point requires a lot of live fire from your carry position.
If folks are dry firing with a different grip than live fire, they need to upgrade their dry fire game.
As to beginner and intermediate shooters, they are precisely the folks who should NOT be live firing from appendix -- and they can just as easily learn to correlate their dry and live fire from OWB.
JodyH
12-07-2014, 11:45 AM
If folks are dry firing with a different grip than live fire, they need to upgrade their dry fire game.
But how do they know they know their grip is different live vs. dry without testing it?
. If a shooter feels the risks of a particular carry method are great enough to exclude drawing/holstering from it during live fire practice what do they think the results will be off the square range under stress? .
I subscribed to George's newsletter a long time ago on this one.
The difference, Trooper, is that I expect to have to draw and holster from appendix under duress between none and one times, ever. Rolling the dice once or twice against high stakes is one thing. In live practice I generally draw and holster about 100 times. Rolling the dice 100 times against high stakes, no matter how low the odds, is not comfortable for me.
JodyH
12-07-2014, 11:53 AM
If we're approaching it from a pure safety perspective, I guarantee there have been more "dry fire" accidents and deaths than AIWB live fire accidents and deaths.
In theory dry fire is safer than live fire from the holster.
In practice more people have shot their mirror, TV, pets, loved ones or themselves "dry" than have shot their femoral live from AIWB.
But how do they know they know their grip is different live vs. dry without testing it?
Quick response as I am just about to jump in the cockpit for five hours.
If you think there are things related to appendix that can only be verified live fire, figure those out and test those things live fire.
Again, my concern is the law of large numbers -- the more repetitions we each do, and shooters collectively do, the greater the risk there will be of grievous accidents when the holster is in an appendix position.
I shoot from AIWB, and only OWB when doing IDPA, I never use IWB.
One could take it one step further ... you could cut out all (or most) holstering and drawing on days where the reps would be in the hundreds, and just shoot from the ready. I don't consider AIWB any more likely to have an ND than IWB or OWB.
I don't follow that idea, I prefer to focus my energy on decreasing the likelihood that the ND happens all together, and limiting the damage by watching how I re-holster.
StraitR
12-07-2014, 02:10 PM
Acquire proper gear.
Check pride at the door.
Start with blue gun, SIRT, or dry fire. (Lots of reps)
Patience required.
Push speed and/or technique with blue gun, SIRT, or dry fire.
Fear is a great governor.
No shortcuts.
Be honest about skill set, and continue to train accordingly. (Dry or live)
Don't shoot yourself.
That's how I approached it, in a nutshell. For me, it comes down to a firm grasp of the risks, a mature self assessment of ones tendencies, and a constant vigilance to safety through and during training. All that's left is marching on through willful acceptance, and live fire is simply part of that.
That said, if you forget where you put your keys all the time, or are prone to injury via mindless mishaps, you should probably ask someone you trust to do the assessment.
I am not sure why folks, who also carry three o'clock for work, gun games, or otherwise, do much live fire practice from appendix. The difference between AIWB and three o'clock, is the draw, and dry fire is a very efficient way to practice drawing.
A few years ago, I made a decision to live fire from OWB and dry fire from appendix. A week or two ago, I forgot my OWB holster at home, and did my live fire session with a G19 out of my AIWB holster. First real live fire appendix session in a year or more, and my live fire confirmed that dry fire worked as I expected.
The law of large numbers says, regardless of platform and technique, the more people doing something such as AIWB, the greater the likelihood of an ND. And with AIWB, regardless of the odds, the stakes are enormous. I think there are a number of reasons folks live fire from AIWB -- some good and most bad. A good reason being that is the ONLY way they carry, and don't want to learn a different draw. Some bad reasons are: it is perceived as cool, they never considered an alternative like dry fire AIWB draw practice, and the vanity of wanting a .1 or .2 faster draw from concealment over concealed OWB when doing PF oriented drills.
I recognize each person gets to decide, but I would like folks to consider there are alternatives, given the stakes.
I adopted that approach some time ago also. My concealed carry for over 3 decades has been a mix of AIWB and IWB with a lot of dry fire on each but more live fire from IWB and OWB than AIWB. On the timer I've seen them all confirmed that there is not enough difference in them to make it a big deal for the daily choice compared to clothes or activity planned for that day.
ToddG
12-07-2014, 03:07 PM
Dry fire does not give the same feedback on grip that live fire does.
You can get away with obtaining a slightly sloppy grip while doing dry fire, your grip has to be perfect for a solid Bill Drill.
Getting your grip from AIWB is significantly different than getting one from AOWB and completely different than strong side OWB.
This.
Also, if I don't feel I can be safe with the gun in training, I shouldn't feel safe with it under extreme stress in a gunfight.
orionz06
12-07-2014, 03:24 PM
The paradox is the people most likely to have an accident are the ones who need the most live reps.
This.
And the rest of the post too but it was summarized well with the quoted portion.
GJM, it sounds like you've decided to carry one way and train another. That's fine, but don't think the rest of us that choose to do it the right way are just trying to be cool or vain.
LOKNLOD
12-07-2014, 03:58 PM
Rolling the dice 100 times against high stakes, no matter how low the odds, is not comfortable for me.
The reason I might be comfortable rolling the dice to do live fire holstering with AIWB, is because I must do so in a way to ensure that there is no dice rolling being done. It is deliberate, structured, methodical, procedural, whatever you want to call it, but it is a focused series of specific acts so there are not any dice involved. The only element of chance when I am live holstering AIWB is possibly if I had been firing enough to be at risk of a cookoff (which is admittedly silly because I can't sustain a rate of fire with a pistol during a practice session to make that possible).
Does this mean I'm perfectly comfortable with it? No, of course not. And if I get too comfortable with it, I might get lax in the process, and that's when I need to reconsider.
There are a heck of a lot of other things I do every day that if I do completely right, outside forces can cause to kill me dead. Every time I pass another car head-on with only a painted line and a couple of feet separating us, now that's a dice roll. Honestly I'd be much less surprised - equally saddened, but far, far less surprised - to log on and see that GJM has died as a result of some malfunction of one of those magnificent flying machines...or being eaten by a bear :p ...than from a reholstering mistake.
I would ask, is there a chance that an extremely high volume of AIWB dry fire, with risk of consequences removed, could lead to sloppy handling on the range?
Kyle Reese
12-07-2014, 04:16 PM
I would ask, is there a chance that an extremely high volume of AIWB dry fire, with risk of consequences removed, could lead to sloppy handling on the range?
Of course.
The consequences for sloppy gun handling / holster work with AIWB can have an immediate & unpleasant effect on one's life, safety & R&R prospects in the future. If I find myself becoming too comfortable reholstering, I need to dial it back. Working with a clueful,astute and brutally honest shooting partner can help identify such shortcomings as well.
Trooper224
12-07-2014, 05:00 PM
Before I answer this further, I should ask whether you regularly dry fire, and if so, why you believe live fire is efficient or necessary in practicing your draw?
Yes on the first point. Nothing takes the place of live fire in training, nothing. Dry firing exercises are a great suppliment but not a replacement. On the second I believe that familiarity with every aspect of the weapons deployment is critical for optimal performance. I disagree with you because I don't find mixing and matching drawing and reholstering techniques to be an efficient means to achieve that repeatedly and consistently under stress. Every technique has it's advantages and drawbacks. The mere handling of a firearm is in itself risk inherent and few aspects are going to be totally safe, as of course you know. If someone is going to be so risk averse as to feel the need to change up and further complicate their training regime and, therefore, the thought process they have to implement under stress, I'd say they need to revisit why they're so dedicated to one particular method of carry they seem to be so uncomfortable with. Again, I'm not down on appendix carry. However, if the feeling is that it's so inherently dangerous as to necessitate the need for a different training regiment for live v. dry fire is the juice really worth the squeeze?
StraitR
12-07-2014, 05:54 PM
However, if the feeling is that it's so inherently dangerous as to necessitate the need for a different training regiment for live v. dry fire is the juice really worth the squeeze?
That's the defining question. I would guess few people currently engaged in appendix carry even recognize the question, and even fewer have taken time to answer it and respond accordingly.
I say this as a person who begrudgingly stopped appendix carry 3 months ago after falling off the training wagon long enough to feel and see the digression. Disappointing, given how hard I worked to get where I was, yet honest and necessary at the time. Choosing and committing to one version of carry is generally a good plan, but staying there at the sacrifice of safety and/or performance is the act of a fool.
98z28
12-07-2014, 08:06 PM
Also, if I don't feel I can be safe with the gun in training, I shouldn't feel safe with it under extreme stress in a gunfight.
Quoted for truth. If I am not comfortable doing 1,000 reps of a given draw in a controlled range environment, then I don't want to rely on it under the kind of stress that comes with a shooting. You will find yourself doing some goofy things - that you do not remember - when a big adrenalin dump hits. Your firearm handling should be ingrained to autopilot level. I am not saying that you can't accomplish that with dry fire. I am saying that if the risk is too great to repeatadly do it on a safe range, then you need to ask yourself if it is something you want to do after a shooting (or near shooting).
I prefer OrigamiAK's approach: Practice the way you'll use it for real and plug in as many safeties that don't rely on you as possible (holster angled away from you, etc.). That's true no matter how you choose to carry the gun.
Your point is well taken GJM, and I wouldn't judge anyone that wants to minimize risk in a relatively low cost way. You've thought it through and chosen your approach. Rock on. I hope everyone works through this issue as thoroughly.
Having spent the last three days in the simulator, I am reminded what the aviation community figured out 15 years ago. Killing yourself, in the process of trying to improve your "safety" is a lousy way to roll. That is why virtually every airline and corporate flight department trains in the simulator and not the real aircraft -- many totaled jets and killed pilots unfortunately were lost in the process of figuring that out.
I could care less about risks encountered in a lethal incident -- that stuff is necessarily dangerous. I am very concerned about how many people shoot themselves training for a statistically unlikely event, when there is an equally effective method of training, that subjects folks to much less risk. That method is to dry fire draws, and live fire from an OWB holster. This is directly analogous to the training methods adopted by airlines and corporate operators.
When I was with Ernest Langdon at the Beretta class, I noted he wore an appendix holster out of class, but instructed wearing an OWB holster. When I asked him about it, he told me he didn't want to be seen as encouraging appendix carry, because it was so wrong for most shooters from a safety perspective. Like it or not, many of you are role models for more impressionable, less experienced shooters. When they see the cool boys going AIWB, they want to do it, even if they don't have the judgment and experience to do it properly.
Don't take this as me being anti-appendix. I am a major proponent of appendix carry, and use it often. I just think there ought to be a conversation on different approaches to maintaining proficiency with appendix. Several people said to me in the past few months, "hey, tell me why you don't live fire appendix, but carry appendix?" When I explained to them my reasoning, they thanked me and said they had never thought of approaching appendix carry that way.
I can't remember whether I mentioned it here, but recently I ended up at the range without my belt and OWB holster. I was wearing my Gen 4 19 in a JM AIWB holster, so I shot my practice session with it. Despite it being my first dedicated appendix live fire session in a year or two, only having practiced dry fire appendix draws, and live fire OWB, I was shooting Bill drills like this in 2.10 from concealment, and sub one second draws.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/AIWBBILL_zps3ec35e50.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/AIWBBILL_zps3ec35e50.jpg.html)
I think that shows that you don't need to life fire appendix to shoot appendix at a high level if you are willing to dry fire. And, if your dry fire practice is proper, you won't have problems with your grip, as Bill drills like this show.
Final point to address something JV made reference to, which was more and more live fire practice appendix makes it even safer. I disagree, and again will make reference to the aviation experience. Pilots that don't fly much have problems. However, once you fly beyond the threshold amount to stay current and be proficient, additional skill is generally offset by a greater risk of an accident solely by virtue of hours of exposure. It really is is the law of large numbers at work. Can you imagine if every police officer in the US carried appendix on duty, how many police officers would seriously shoot themselves each day. I am not suggesting the risk of an ND is greater appendix, just the consequences of each ND are so much greater than with traditional OWB carry.
ToddG
12-07-2014, 10:35 PM
Having spent the last three days in the simulator, I am reminded what the aviation community figured out 15 years ago. Killing yourself, in the process of trying to improve your "safety" is a lousy way to roll. That is why virtually every airline and corporate flight department trains in the simulator and not the real aircraft -- many totaled jets and killed pilots unfortunately were lost in the process of figuring that out.
I don't dare my shooting mates to real life duels. I think I have therefore checked this box.
...when there is an equally effective method of training...
Except many people in this thread have expressed that they don't think the above quote it valid. It may meet your needs and as 98z28 said, if that's so drive on. But you're making a huge mistake assuming that you know what is universally best for everyone just because for the time being you think it's best for you. Again I'd draw the analogy to the numerous "I've found the best gun" threads...
As an example:
When I was with Ernest Langdon at the Beretta class, I noted he wore an appendix holster out of class, but instructed wearing an OWB holster. When I asked him about it, he told me he didn't want to be seen as encouraging appendix carry, because it was so wrong for most shooters from a safety perspective.
And yet, when he live practices, he is almost always doing so from AIWB. I've got all sorts of video demonstrating this fact not to mention that I'm willing to bet I've spent more time on the range with him than anyone here. Out of curiosity, was this Beretta class hosted in Arkansas and organized by the guy who owns a big gun sport organization that outlaws AIWB?
Like it or not, many of you are role models for more impressionable, less experienced shooters.
I'm not going to forego effective practice just because some stranger watching me might pick up bad habits.
http://youtu.be/nMzdAZ3TjCA
I think that shows that you don't need to life fire appendix to shoot appendix at a high level if you are willing to dry fire.
No, it shows that you don't need it to achieve that particular level under those particular circumstances when you dry fire to the extent you do. You need to understand all those variables rather than just saying "dry fire is enough."
And, if your dry fire practice is proper, you won't have problems with your grip, as Bill drills like this show.
Unless that was the first drill you shot live that day, it's meaningless. Anyone can get their grip right after a few reps of live fire drills. It's what happens on your first draw after nothing but dry practice that counts.
Can you imagine if every police officer in the US carried appendix on duty, how many police officers would seriously shoot themselves each day.
Can you imagine if every police officer in the US flew a helicopter to work each day? Since the vast majority aren't anywhere close to being competent enough to do that, I guess there would be a lot of accidents.
Todd, if you were convinced that the combination of dry fire appendix draws, with substantially all live fire from OWB, plus minimal appendix live fire verification, resulted in the same result/efficacy as all live fire appendix practice, would you agree the approach I described would be safer than all live fire from the appendix position?
ToddG
12-07-2014, 11:12 PM
Sure. And, as the saying goes, if frogs had wings...
Sure. And, as the saying goes, if frogs had wings...
Good, then I think we are making progress.
I suspect you are underestimating the value of correct, dry fire drawing practice.
ToddG
12-07-2014, 11:29 PM
I suspect you are underestimating the value of correct, dry fire drawing practice.
I suspect you are overestimating its value, overestimating the amount of dry fire people are willing to do, and overestimating the efficiency of dry fire as opposed to live fire per unit of time.
Someone who dry fires ten hours a week and spends one hour per week in live fire is practicing far more than someone who spends just one hour per week in live fire with no dry fire, or even two or three hours per week in live fire. That's the great sleight of hand trick some people use when talking about dry fire. They say, "I got better in 500 rounds than the other guy did," but they ignore that they were spending an hour a day practicing while the other guy went to the range once a month.
The real question is: if I told you I'd give you as much range time and as much ammo as you wanted but you could only handle a firearm for ten hours per week, how much of that time would you spend on the range shooting the free ammo? (see, e.g., Eric Grauffel)
JustOneGun
12-07-2014, 11:43 PM
JodyH hit the big ones. While I understand the difference in location of bullet placement, I have a simple question: How do you draw and holster multiple times every range session OWB knowing you are going to shoot yourself in the ass or hip? That gives me the willies as much as shooting myself in the inner thigh. I respect that it could happen and take steps to prevent it, no matter where I holster.
Yes, Todd, but what you are ignoring is that live firing from appendix is more dangerous than live firing from traditional OWB because of the position of the holster. (See post #26) To use a John Hearne quote, it is not the odds but the stakes. And while the odds of an ND may be the same from appendix as OWB, unquestionably the stakes are greater with appendix.
That is why I am interested in an approach that integrates substantial amounts of appendix dry fire as compared to the percent of appendix live fire. I am sure an effective and efficient program could be developed that provides great performance outcomes while optimizing safety.
ToddG
12-08-2014, 12:06 AM
I'm not sure why you'd think I don't understand the stakes.
AIWB: Not For Everyone (http://pistol-training.com/archives/2998)
Holstering AIWB (http://pistol-training.com/archives/7180)
Appendix Controversy (http://pistol-training.com/archives/7768)
... not to mention countless posts on this forum ...
However, you seem to ignore most of the counterpoints made, like the issue of getting your live practice holster and your dry practice holster confused if you suddenly need to draw a gun to save your life.
I'll say this again: if what you're doing works for you, keep doing it. But trying to turn that into what you've decided must be best for everyone is a recipe for failure.
I'm not sure why you'd think I don't understand the stakes.
AIWB: Not For Everyone (http://pistol-training.com/archives/2998)
Holstering AIWB (http://pistol-training.com/archives/7180)
Appendix Controversy (http://pistol-training.com/archives/7768)
... not to mention countless posts on this forum ...
However, you seem to ignore most of the counterpoints made, like the issue of getting your live practice holster and your dry practice holster confused if you suddenly need to draw a gun to save your life.
I'll say this again: if what you're doing works for you, keep doing it. But trying to turn that into what you've decided must be best for everyone is a recipe for failure.
If confusing where your holster is, is your most compelling argument, it is to borrow your expression, weak sauce. Regardless of whether we dry fire or live fire, from what position and in what proportion, everyone that carries OWB and AIWB, which is a high percentage of appendix users, is subject to that. Using your logic, should we believe anyone who has done FAST tests, is going to shoot two to the head and reload in a gunfight.
You profess to understand the stakes, but your position here seems to belie this. If you did, you would be open to different approaches of how to get the benefits of appendix carry while minimizing risk. I am not suggesting everyone do what I am doing, but I am suggesting it should be considered as a viable approach, and not rejected out of hand with specious arguments like you will be confused where your holster is in a gunfight.
GJM, it sounds like you've decided to carry one way and train another. That's fine, but don't think the rest of us that choose to do it the right way are just trying to be cool or vain.
I didn't pick up on the cool or vain thing but it's not a zero-sum of carry one way and train another. It's the proportions between the methods. And I think the training encompasses dry fire, live fire and by very authoritive accounts on PF force on force - which is not exactly live fire either.
ToddG
12-08-2014, 09:18 AM
If confusing where your holster is, is your most compelling argument, it is to borrow your expression, weak sauce. Regardless of whether we dry fire or live fire, from what position and in what proportion, everyone that carries OWB and AIWB, which is a high percentage of appendix users, is subject to that. Using your logic, should we believe anyone who has done FAST tests, is going to shoot two to the head and reload in a gunfight.
George, both here and in other recent threads there have been LE folks who've specifically explained that they and/or their coworkers have in fact reached for a gun in a holster that wasn't there. This isn't IPSC. You don't get to load and make ready, verifying the exact placement of the holster, thinking about it in advance. It's not practice where you know which holster you put on a few minutes ago and think about the drill you're going to shoot in advance.
Based on what data collection process have you determined that "a high percentage of appendix users" carry OWB on any kind of regular basis? Uniform patrol cops do, sure, but except for them no one in my circle carries OWB day to day. They may do it when playing games (see above) or when teaching, but never when an unplanned unfortunate event may suddenly and stressfully present itself. You're basically talking about the holster equivalent of a carry gun "rotation."
How many of us grew up driving a manual transmission car and then, first time we drove an automatic, we jammed our left foot into the floorboard because we were reaching for a clutch that wasn't there?
The FAST test analogy is where the weak sauce is. It's a shooting test. Do you think you could single handedly (literally) kill 23 guys WHO because of test #8 at Rogers?
You profess to understand the stakes, but your position here seems to belie this.
No, my position here is simply that I don't have to do it George's Way to be safe.
If you did, you would be open to different approaches of how to get the benefits of appendix carry while minimizing risk.
You're right, George. I'm clearly the one in this conversation who isn't open to other people's opinions and ideas. :cool:
I'm out.
JustOneGun
12-08-2014, 09:20 AM
If confusing where your holster is, is your most compelling argument, it is to borrow your expression, weak sauce. Regardless of whether we dry fire or live fire, from what position and in what proportion, everyone that carries OWB and AIWB, which is a high percentage of appendix users, is subject to that. Using your logic, should we believe anyone who has done FAST tests, is going to shoot two to the head and reload in a gunfight.
You profess to understand the stakes, but your position here seems to belie this. If you did, you would be open to different approaches of how to get the benefits of appendix carry while minimizing risk. I am not suggesting everyone do what I am doing, but I am suggesting it should be considered as a viable approach, and not rejected out of hand with specious arguments like you will be confused where your holster is in a gunfight.
I came to the different holsters from the opposite position. As a police officer with a pistol on my hip I tried to make AIWB work for me. It was far superior for my aching back. The problem was I kept getting the initial draw wrong. I tried changing my training to make that work and failed. I switched back to hip owb only for that reason.
Over the years I have seen others do that with their different holsters (not just AIWB but other positions.) Nothing like doing the Macarena at the beginning of a gunfight, qual evolution or drill. I've seen that weak sauce poured over peoples ego many times, including my own. Two different holsters creates problems of its own that are very real.
Question for everyone: has anyone you know shot themselves from the hip and died? And has anyone shot themselves AIWB and lived? I ask this because we seem to be forgetting that the reason the gun goes bang AIWB is the same as any other holster position. And if shooting ourselves is so prevalent then perhaps a holster that doesn't even point at our body should be the holster of the day?
And has anyone shot themselves AIWB and lived?Not me, but yes.
Presumably police officers carrying a weapon in a duty rig and concealed off duty, deal with this every day. Ernest Langdon just made USPSA Production shooting out of an OWB holster, and carries AIWB. Anyone shooting IDPA or USPSA Production deals with two holster positions. Some can and some can not -- be realistic about your own ability in this regard.
Darryl or Wayne hopefully will chime in, but I understand a Dallas area police officer recently shot himself appendix, and tragically died. A young man who went by "a three letter screen name" on PF, shot himself in the groin from appendix. I definitely agree that a holster that places the muzzle of the handgun so as not to cover your body drawing and holstering is ideal. Origami has "wedged" his holster so his 34 doesn't cover himself with most operations.
I am sure there are people who have shot themselves OWB and died, and shot themselves appendix and been fine, but there is no question that overall a bullet to your groin is worse than a graze to your leg.
There are folks like Origami and TLG, approaching AIWB as safely as possible. There are also a ton of people that NO WAY should be carrying AIWB. Unfortunately, many of those who should NOT be carrying AIWB do not have the judgment to know they are poor candidates. How many of you would want their 18 year old sons carrying AIWB?
JustOneGun
12-08-2014, 10:00 AM
Presumably police officers carrying a weapon in a duty rig and concealed off duty, deal with this every day. Ernest Langdon just made USPSA Production shooting out of an OWB holster, and carries AIWB. Anyone shooting IDPA or USPSA Production deals with two holster positions. Some can and some can not -- be realistic about your own ability in this regard.
Darryl or Wayne hopefully will chime in, but I understand a Dallas area police officer recently shot himself appendix, and tragically died. A young man who went by "a three letter screen name" on PF, shot himself in the groin from appendix. I definitely agree that a holster that places the muzzle of the handgun so as not to cover your body drawing and holstering is ideal. Origami has "wedged" his holster so his 34 doesn't cover himself with most operations.
I am sure there are people who have shot themselves OWB and died, and shot themselves appendix and been fine, but there is no question that overall a bullet to your groin is worse than a graze to your leg.
There are folks like Origami and TLG, approaching AIWB as safely as possible. There are also a ton of people that NO WAY should be carrying AIWB. Unfortunately, many of those who should NOT be carrying AIWB do not have the judgment to know they are poor candidates. How many of you would want their 18 year old sons carrying AIWB?
I think I can agree with this. But how to go about being safe is a vitally important no matter where you holster. But again while I see where you're coming from I just don't agree. The reason is that the things that will make you shoot yourself are well known and safety can be incorporated. Just like in the recent thread about this, if you want to change up your practice with two holsters or by not carrying AIWB that is okay. But some considerations of the two holster idea lead me to just stick with OWB while I was an officer and give the Chiropractor my money. You might think about it before you decide.
FYI: Some of the people I saw grabbing for the holster that wasn't there were very good and accomplished shooters. I could not see a pattern of people and their shooting style, experience or tactical fame as to who it would happen to. With some of the more experienced shooters I saw the mistake made during drills that were more intense as opposed to the mild stress of wanting to get that 250/250 on the qual. I worry the stress of a gunfight will easily screw up many more of them no matter how practiced they are.
I'm not sure how this applies to the holster, but if I move my mag pouch from 10 o'clock to 8 o'clock, I will screw up my reload. It's almost guaranteed.
I'm not sure how this applies to the holster, but if I move my mag pouch from 10 o'clock to 8 o'clock, I will screw up my reload. It's almost guaranteed.
Good observation. It sounds pretty similar more or less. The funny thing is that could be an analogy that both sides of the argument could apply; considering stages or scenarios with multiple reloads where the next mag is somewhere back there in the lineup of 3 or 4; yet it can be done.
KevinB
12-08-2014, 12:32 PM
I would argue as Todd and other have above that the range is the simulator.
Would you practice to fly a Cessna in a 747 Sim? To me that is the analogy you (GJM) are making.
I carry IWB - but not appendix -- the only times I use a OWB holster is fully jocked up in gear - even then, my holster is very similarly positioned on my body.
Like Jody said above - I do not feel dry fire draws give you the same muscle memory on the grip - as a bad grip will not be visible (or a not ideal grip). It is a great aid for somethings, but ensuring proper grip under recoil is not one -- and drawing from a completely different position than one practices live I do not think is a great idea (IMHO)
David S.
12-08-2014, 12:53 PM
(I'm a student with very modest experience and can only hope my statements will have some basis in reality. As always you all have an open invitation to let me know I'm full of crap.)
By using your (George) method am I subconsciously creating two psychological, physiological (whatever) motor responses? By this I mean, will I create a "fake" gun position motor response during dry-fire practice and a separate "for realzies" gun position motor response during live fire? If so, will I have trained my lizard brain to only reach here (AIWB) if it's a safe unloaded gun and there for a "for realzies" (strong side), loaded gun? How will my lizard brain react to this training artifact when it asks me to reach for the loaded gun, NOW? I have no data or experience to back this up, but if the red flag flies I'd be concerned that this particular stoodent (me) might go digging for the gun the "for realzies" (strong side) spot and put me behind the power curve.
I'd be willing to bet that the ability to shoot at your level, while routinely change up your carry gun and holster position with little to no performance penalty makes you the outlier.
I also want to push back on your thought about flight simulators. At least in the airline world, as you know, the flight simulators are exact mock-up of the cockpits in the airplanes being trained on. All the buttons and switches (analogous to holster position, etc.) are in the exact same place. They feel and move the same. Based on the cockpit alone, you can't tell it's not a real plane. The successful use of flight simulators in aviation training may suggest the usefulness of dry-fire and force-on-force training, but I'm not sure how that applies to this particular suggestion.
While I find your idea about fighting the laws of large numbers is compelling, I personally am not ultimately persuaded. I think I'll stick with the judicious use of AIWB practice. Thanks, as always, for your ability and willingness to question authority.
Cheers,
David
Trooper224
12-08-2014, 01:57 PM
I'm not sure how this applies to the holster, but if I move my mag pouch from 10 o'clock to 8 o'clock, I will screw up my reload. It's almost guaranteed.
Many years ago I noticed some of the older guys were carrying their magazine pouches horizontally instead of vertically. I decided it looked interesting and switched from vertical to horizontal. Until that point, between LE and Military I'd always carried my spares vertically. Well, a light bulb came on when my hand swept down to my belt during a reload and I wound up trying to load my pepper spray into my pistol. Since it was the only vertically positioned thing on my belt, my hand naturally found it. I went back to vertical and have stayed that way ever since.
I would argue as Todd and other have above that the range is the simulator.
Would you practice to fly a Cessna in a 747 Sim? To me that is the analogy you (GJM) are making.y different position than one practices live I do not think is a great idea (IMHO)
This is not even remotely close to what I said. What I said was that the airlines and corporate operators of jets learned 15 or so years ago, that it makes NO sense to kill pilots and wreck aircraft, practicing "safety" in the real aircraft, when there is a very good alternative of a simulator. Those simulators are not generic simulators, but the exact simulator of a specific model. Now while aviation has learned that the bulk of training is done in the simulator, there are certain things that are done in the actual aircraft. This is very analogous to the dry fire/live fire analogy. While dry fire is not the way to learn recoil control, it is the most efficient way to learn many technical shooting skills, including drawing and reloading. You then use live fire to confirm that what you are doing in your dry fire practice is real and proper. If you are not confirming your dry fire practice with live fire, you are kidding yourself. When you speak with Robert Vogel, and other top shooters, you will find they typically dry fire 2 to 10 times each repetition compared to live fire. (Eric Grauffel is a real outlier in doing little dry fire. However, he is a full time shooter with an ammo sponsor. Manny told me Eric is shooting 250,000 rounds of live ammo a year.)
By using your (George) method am I subconsciously creating two psychological, physiological (whatever) motor responses? By this I mean, will I create a "fake" gun position motor response during dry-fire practice and a separate "for realzies" gun position motor response during live fire? If so, will I have trained my lizard brain to only reach here (AIWB) if it's a safe unloaded gun and there for a "for realzies" (strong side), loaded gun? How will my lizard brain react to this training artifact when it asks me to reach for the loaded gun, NOW? I have no data or experience to back this up, but if the red flag flies I'd be concerned that this particular stoodent (me) might go digging for the gun the "for realzies" (strong side) spot and put me behind the power curve.
David
If that concerns you, pick one carry method, and carry on. If that is appendix, terrific.
Regardless of what you might gather from this forum, pistol shooting is not primarily an appendix carry world. If you shoot gun games, like IDPA and USPSA Production, you are not shooting appendix. If you carry a holster in a duty rig, it is most certainly not in the appendix position. We could do a poll, but my wag guess would be 80 or 90 percent of people who carry appendix also carry in OWB or IWB 3 o'clockish holsters. That means, like it or not, you are learning multiple positions for your holster.
What is interesting is that my approach is fundamentally very similar to what TLG wrote here:
http://pistol-training.com/archives/2998
Finally, before committing to the AIWB lifestyle, do yourself a favor and try it with an empty gun for a week while you’re hanging around the house. Do an hour or two of dry fire drawing and holstering the gun in different positions, in various lighting conditions, and with different concealment garments. I drew and reholstered my pistol eleventy-billion times dry fire before loading it up and carrying it this way.
If you follow all of this advice and still blow your testicles off or put a round through a major artery, sucks to be you. You were warned.
Where we differ, is as follows. First, I would like to clarify that my advice is not to suggest that exclusive appendix shooters should take up shooting from an OWB holster. In my initial post, I said if you only shoot appendix, my advice doesn't apply, and it makes sense to live fire from appendix. Since to my knowledge, JV and TLG are appendix shooters exclusively, my advice is not aimed at them. My advice applies to folks who ALREADY are shooting from an OWB holster. In that case, I believe that it is a prudent risk management strategy, even after you transition to carrying a loaded firearm appendix, to do the bulk of your live fire shooting from OWB, and continue to do the bulk of your appendix practice in dry fire.
I am frankly surprised this is so controversial, as this seems like a perfect software discussion topic for this forum, as the consequences of an appendix ND are so severe.
DocGKR
12-08-2014, 02:24 PM
These days 90% of my handgun carry is AIWB.
Thus 90% of my dry/SIRT training is AIWB.
Likewise 90% of my live fire is AIWB...
Note that I try to get 5-10 reps dry/SIRT for every live round going downrange.
So far I still need live fire training, as even when everything "feels" great in dry fire/SIRT, things can fall apart when recoil is introduced.
Trooper224
12-08-2014, 05:19 PM
I am frankly surprised this is so controversial, as this seems like a perfect software discussion topic for this forum, as the consequences of an appendix ND are so severe.
Most responders are disagreeing with you. I don't think that makes it particularly controversial.
I can't buy that there is such a massive difference between a live fire grip and dry fire grip. When you foul the grip you see it at index either way; you can feel it. One notable USPSA GM went straight to the top on a diet of majority dry fire. Exhibit A.
Trooper224
12-08-2014, 05:24 PM
I can't buy that there is such a massive difference between a live fire grip and dry fire grip. When you foul the grip you see it at index either way; you can feel it. One notable USPSA GM went straight to the top on a diet of majority dry fire. Exhibit A.
Was that GM doing so in a context where the targets were moving, hostile and shooting back, with more on the line than a trophy or belt buckle? My brain is capable of quite a few things during competition that become exponentially harder when the targets have started shooting back.
David S.
12-08-2014, 05:33 PM
............
Was that GM doing so in a context where the targets were moving, hostile and shooting back, with more on the line than a trophy or belt buckle? My brain is capable of quite a few things during competition that become exponentially harder when the targets have started shooting back.
What bearing does that street reality have on how you learn and practice your grip, draw and index? Dry fire and range "simulator" training is used to get all this hard wired at the unconscious competence level. Neither of those training environments include hostile fire.
I wish I had something meaningful to contribute here but I really don't so I'll just ramble for a minute. Feel free to skip to the next post if that idea doesn't appeal to you.
I started carrying appendix part time in the late 90's with a G26 and then a G19. I didn't know anyone else who also carried aiwb back then so I never realized how dangerous it was. I'm amazed I didn't bleed out long ago. When I say I didn't know anyone else carrying aiwb, I mean competent folks who I associated with. Only about 20,000 NY cops were also carrying aiwb at the time, either off duty or on duty (as a backup weapon position, aiwb was pretty popular then in NY. No idea if it still is) Also, aiwb was probably the very first carry position when pistols were invented, so its not like its new or anything. None of us invented or popularized aiwb. I have mostly carried aiwb ever since, though I did take a break for a few years for reasons that may not be worth getting into now, but mostly involved not wanting to switch holster positions any more than I had to. On that note, I have seen plenty of people reach for guns that weren't where they thought they would be, both under timed stress and in FoF. As someone else already mentioned, you mostly see it with magazines, and I have seen everything from knives to batons to flashlights to cell phones get shoved into a pistol grip in the hopes that they would spit bullets. There are different reasons why that happens, and not all of them are relevant to this ramble but sometimes people do that when they expect a mag to be there and find something else instead. I'm reasonably certain that aspect also applies to other items besides mags.
On another note, all the references in the world to "top shooters" is really starting to wear me out. If "they" could be stereotyped, the most common thing would be that they all do different things for different reasons and you shouldn't draw too many conclusions from what they do. I've been guilty of it in the past as well. Having more than my share of actual top shooters as friends and training partners over the years, (not just guys who look good in practice, but guys who actually perform year after year.) have to say that many (most?) of them are not as safe as I strive to be, and all of them do things to improve what matters TO THEM. What matters to them rarely matters to me. Carrying a gun concealed 16-20 hours a day in case they feel the need to meet the grand jury is not high on their list and frankly, almost none of them understand it well at all.
As for safety issues while carrying and training aiwb - I don't believe that aiwb is any more likely to result in an ND than any other position, IF THE SHOOTER DOES WHAT HE CAN TO MINIMIZE ACCIDENTS! A good list of things to do has already been posted before and I'll not rehash it now. If the shooter does what he can, and an ND still occurs, I don't think death is likely to result. My gun very rarely points at me, and as long as I don't forget all of my 9,000 hours of training, I am pretty unlikely to shoot myself. What some competition shooter thinks about the issue is moot to me. I have a lot of real world draws from aiwb, and have a pretty good idea of how I will react under stress (if past performance is any indicator). Having said that, all of us are human and none of us are too high speed to fail. Which is why I have multiple redundant safety procedures built in to my gun handling. I know several top shooters who have not only had ND's, but also shot themselves. I'm trying very hard not to join them.
Along those lines, I usually assume that people on PF are serious, squared away shooters who know what they are doing and why. Unfortunately, this isn't always true. I have met many guys in my time on the range who talk a good game, and who can even produce good results some of the time. Unfortunately, lots of people still lack the fundamentals. Even among the guys who shoot a lot and like to train, practicing the basics is not that sexy so they don't do it, or they don't do it well enough and deep enough to get serious long term results. A good measure of how well someone understands and can execute the basics is what they can do cold. Warmed up really doesn't interest me at all. Even in big competitions, there is often so much time between stages that no one really gets to warm up effectively. That tends to sort the actual experts from the "training range" experts. Watching how people train will also clue you in to this stuff. There may be more than one way to skin the cat, but there sure are even more ways to fail.
Anyway, I'm sure I left some stuff out, and I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes or single anyone out. If you think aiwb is too dangerous, don't use it. We're all adults, we all need to make our own decisions. Personally, I still rank driving as way more dangerous than aiwb.
ToddG
12-08-2014, 10:33 PM
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/7/72463/1386768-awesome13.jpg
Sean O
12-08-2014, 10:45 PM
SLG, excellent post. Awesome to see you posting again, thank you!
http://www.ksat.com/content/pns/ksat/news/2014/10/28/bexar-probation-officer-killed-in-accidental-shooting-identified.html
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Bexar-County-probation-officer-dies-in-apparent-5851471.php
Reference the kind of wounds stemming from self inflicted, accidental gunshot wounds, here is some interesting reading -- Front Sight's listing of "incident reports:"
https://www.frontsight.com/SafetyReports.asp?Action=ShowSingle&ID=5
20 self inflicted gunshot wounds by students during training. Of the 20, 12 were students drawing, 6 holstering and 2 dangling. Weapons involved:
Sig 3
Glock 5
1911 7
XD 4
M&P 1
All strong side holsters, and not a single fatality.
George,
I'm really at a loss to understand your point with those links. Other than the news article, do you know anything about that incident? Anything at all?
I'm reasonably certain that most of us already knew that a gunshot wound to the groin (where exactly was he shot again? And under what exact circumstance?) could be fatal.
Among people who carry OWB, I see a huge percentage of them point the gun at their sides, almost diagonally, from right love handle to left hip, every time they reholster. I'm sure it would suck to shoot yourself completely through your midsection as well. Does that mean that OWB is unsafe or that you have any similarity to the people who incorrectly holster their weapons?
Just saw your followup post. I posted my thoughts in order to post my thoughts. Not to get drawn into an argument about aiwb, which I will not do. Having said that, I don't find anything about Front Sight to be credible. The only thing that link proves is that FS does a worse job of training people than the NYPD does. 20 self inflicted gunshot wounds by students at class! Safest way to train is to not go to FS.
I've witnessed a very few ND's over the years. One was a guy who ND'd on the draw from an OWB holster. He created 4 holes in his pants leg and no holes in his leg. God works in mysterious ways.
Speaking of God, may he save me from myself. In the PO fatality, was he even carrying aiwb? Or did he simply point the gun at his "groin" while attempting to do something like clear it? I can show you plenty of wounds and deaths from incorrect clearing procedures. Maybe we should stop clearing our guns?
George,
I'm really at a loss to understand your point with those links. Other than the news article, do you know anything about that incident? Anything at all?
I'm reasonably certain that most of us already knew that a gunshot wound to the groin (where exactly was he shot again? And under what exact circumstance?) could be fatal.
Among people who carry OWB, I see a huge percentage of them point the gun at their sides, almost diagonally, from right love handle to left hip, every time they reholster. I'm sure it would suck to shoot yourself completely through your midsection as well. Does that mean that OWB is unsafe or that you have any similarity to the people who incorrectly holster their weapons?
SLG, I was told by area trainers there that the officer shot himself with a Glock 19 in an appendix holster. Frankly, I was astounded by your statement (referring to appendix carry):
and an ND still occurs, I don't think death is likely to result.
The tragic incident in TX should be at least considered in the context of evaluating your statement regarding the likely severity of a gunshot wound to the groin. Since he was obviously live firing from appendix, it goes directly to the subject of this thread.
To answer your second question, I think you can easily kill yourself drawing from an OWB holster. That said, I think you have to work a lot harder to kill yourself with an OWB holster than an appendix holster. While the plural of anecdote is not data, 20 shootings starts to approach data, and it is surely relevant that 20 people shot themselves with a strong side holster and none died. It is also relevant that despite the focus on re-holstering accidents appendix, 12 out of 20 shot themselves drawing, and half the incidents were with non-striker pistols (Sig and 1911 pistols).
SLG,
I am grateful to see you posting here again.
SeriousStudent
12-09-2014, 12:01 AM
SLG,
I am grateful to see you posting here again.
Indeed! My very best regards to your family. I really do enjoy your wife's book.
(My apologies for the thread detour).
I appreciate the warm welcome back guys!
GJM said,
"Frankly, I was astounded by your statement (referring to appendix carry):
and an ND still occurs, I don't think death is likely to result.
The tragic incident in TX should be at least considered in the context of evaluating your statement regarding the likely severity of a gunshot wound to the groin. Since he was obviously live firing from appendix, it goes directly to the subject of this thread.[/QUOTE]
I am now aware of one fatality from a self inflicted aiwb wound. I am unaware of any fatalities from OWB self inflicted wounds. I am also aware of one person who shot himself aiwb and is not dead. Mathamatically speaking (never a strong point for me) I don't think you can argue that a 50/50 chance of dying is "likely", anymore than you can argue that it is "unlikely."
In any event, my point was obviously not clear. For a properly trained aiwb shooter to DIE from an ND, seems very unlikely to me. My gun does not point at a part of me on the draw or when I reholster, that would likely result in my death if it were to go off. A number of things would all have to go wrong at the same time for me to receive more than a grazing wound if I had an ND. Given your body type and the way you train, that may not be true for YOU. It is true for me and my circle.
Though I pretty much think this extreme worry about aiwb is groundless, there is a real safety issue to carrying aiwb that no one has yet mentioned, and that is very hard to mitigate. It is the main reason why I try to convince people not to carry aiwb. I imagine Southnarc knows what I am talking about, hint hint. If you don't know what I mean, go do some force on force like ecqc, and see what can happen when someone doesn't understand creating space to draw a gun. This issue can also occur with OWB, but is much more likely with aiwb.
SLG, I suspect our posts may have been crossing, and between that and some editing, not reflecting the conversation. I suspect we are agreeing on a lot more than disagreeing. I am very pro-appendix carry. I also don't believe that the risk of an ND while appendix carrying is any greater than OWB. I share your appreciation for on-demand performance, and whether in a real life encounter or at a match, the first run is generally the only one that counts for score. If there is an area we do differ, it is that I feel that the consequences of an ND are especially serious, and more so than traditional OWB carry. That is what has caused me to approach the high volume live fire from appendix differently. While I don't give a lot of credence to what top USPSA shooters say about appendix carry, except for Ernest Langdon who I respect a lot on this subject, I do think "top shooters" know something about dry fire.
Since I neglected to say it earlier, it is great to see you posting on PF. I always enjoy your perspective. If this thread is what it took to get you posting, it is a very good topic.
Trooper224
12-09-2014, 02:25 AM
What bearing does that street reality have on how you learn and practice your grip, draw and index? Dry fire and range "simulator" training is used to get all this hard wired at the unconscious competence level. Neither of those training environments include hostile fire.
It has everything to do with the context of the exercise being discussed.
Dry firing from AIWB and switching to OWb for live fire isn't "hard wiring" anything. If anything it's cross wiring. A competition shooter has time to prepare himself, prepare his equipment, check his gun in his holster, walk through the stage of fire, etc. All of these give he or she a chance to flip the right mental switch as to their choice of procedure. None of this exists when you're walking to the Piggly Wiggly for a Slurpy and shite happens right NOW!. Consequently, the mental leap between AIWB or OWB isn't nearly as large for the competition shooter as the individual facing a life and death encounter. Avoidance in mixing carry methods is no different than avoiding the dreaded mixmaster "carry rotation", etc.
DocGKR
12-09-2014, 04:08 AM
I just spent an hour or so dry fire training with a SIRT from AIWB at 1 o'clock. I tried a variety of ways to shoot myself with the laser--in almost all cases the laser missed my body. Very rarely it grazed a gonad. In no cases did it appear to be pointed at my femoral artery on the draw and even less likely on re-holstering.
I just spent an hour or so dry fire training with a SIRT from AIWB at 1 o'clock. I tried a variety of ways to shoot myself with the laser--in almost all cases the laser missed my body. Very rarely it grazed a gonad. In no cases did it appear to be pointed at my femoral artery on the draw and even less likely on re-holstering.
Gary, this is exactly how it should be with a properly positioned holster in most positions. Simon made reference to this, and Gabe frequently describes how his holster is wedged to accomplish this.
What percentage of appendix users do you think understand this and have their holster properly wedged to keep the muzzle from covering their anatomy? If you go to the web sites of the main purveyors of appendix holsters, there is nothing, nada, said about the importance of wedging the holster to keep the muzzle from covering your body -- I just spent a few minutes reading descriptions and FAQ, and could find not a single mention. The only mention of a wedge feature is to tuck the grip closer to your body.
Gary, in terms of keeping the muzzle from covering you, did you accomplish this with external wedges or how? Of course, the holster still does cover you when drawing from sitting, like in a car or sitting at a desk, or bending forward ?
taadski
12-09-2014, 09:13 AM
It has everything to do with the context of the exercise being discussed.
Dry firing from AIWB and switching to OWb for live fire isn't "hard wiring" anything. If anything it's cross wiring. A competition shooter has time to prepare himself, prepare his equipment, check his gun in his holster, walk through the stage of fire, etc. All of these give he or she a chance to flip the right mental switch as to their choice of procedure. None of this exists when you're walking to the Piggly Wiggly for a Slurpy and shite happens right NOW!. Consequently, the mental leap between AIWB or OWB isn't nearly as large for the competition shooter as the individual facing a life and death encounter. Avoidance in mixing carry methods is no different than avoiding the dreaded mixmaster "carry rotation", etc.
Being an Officer, do you have a retention device on your duty holster? Do you use the same retention device on your off duty rig or do you switch to an IWB? Does going back to the retention device cause any issues for you? I noticed you carry a K9 as a BUG (It looks well loved and well worn…very nice). Do you carry it in an alternative location? I'm assuming you've worked with it from that carry location a good amount looking at the pistol. Does the "cross-wiring" come into play here too? How about the differences between the trigger on the Kahr and whatever duty pistol you carry?
I'm not trying to be inflammatory. Just some points to consider. I get the interest in keeping things as consistent as possible but I think perhaps we're over emphasizing the matter some?
Re the subject of the thread, I applaud GJMs "diligence" (;)) in the matter. I know for a fact that it stems from genuine concern on his part. Thinking about this stuff and going through the minutia occasionally is important. It's one of the reason I come here. That said I'm going to continue regular dry-fire AND live-fire practice from both my duty holsters AND my (AIWB) off duty/BUG holsters. :p :cool:
t
David S.
12-09-2014, 10:08 AM
Gary, this is exactly how it should be with a properly positioned holster in most positions. Simon made reference to this, and Gabe frequently describes how his holster is wedged to accomplish this.
What percentage of appendix users do you think understand this and have their holster properly wedged to keep the muzzle from covering their anatomy? If you go to the web sites of the main purveyors of appendix holsters, there is nothing, nada, said about the importance of wedging the holster to keep the muzzle from covering your body -- I just spent a few minutes reading descriptions and FAQ, and could find not a single mention. The only mention of a wedge feature is to tuck the grip closer to your body.
Gary, in terms of keeping the muzzle from covering you, did you accomplish this with external wedges or how? Of course, the holster still does cover you when drawing from sitting, like in a car or sitting at a desk, or bending forward ?
I don't know what the "main purveyors of appendix holsters" are outside of the P-F standards. Do you think the standard P-F models (JMCK, 5Shot, Shaggy, etc. Keepers with foam wedges installed seems obvious.) do an adequate job of wedging? I assume so, being that you regularly carry some or all of them.
Mr_White
12-09-2014, 12:05 PM
As I've said before, I am strongly attached to holster placement and features that prevent the muzzle from intersecting with my body as much as possible. This is how big a wedge that takes for me personally:
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8238/8369957713_cb6437a4e6_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/dKCdPK)0111130627-01 (https://flic.kr/p/dKCdPK) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/people/52790396@N08/), on Flickr
It has everything to do with the context of the exercise being discussed.
Dry firing from AIWB and switching to OWb for live fire isn't "hard wiring" anything. If anything it's cross wiring. A competition shooter has time to prepare himself, prepare his equipment, check his gun in his holster, walk through the stage of fire, etc. All of these give he or she a chance to flip the right mental switch as to their choice of procedure. None of this exists when you're walking to the Piggly Wiggly for a Slurpy and shite happens right NOW!. Consequently, the mental leap between AIWB or OWB isn't nearly as large for the competition shooter as the individual facing a life and death encounter. Avoidance in mixing carry methods is no different than avoiding the dreaded mixmaster "carry rotation", etc.
No the point was that dry firing an AIWB draw is not miles from live fire drawing from AIWB. Dry fire OWB practice is not miles from live OWB drawing. It just isn't. Learning how the grip and index presents isn't that different. At least not after the first hundreds or so to get over noob jitters about drawing a hot pistol.
Not GJM or anyone else said never AIWB live fire. Just in proportions of volume of reps. His point is volume calls into play that math thing about probability. I'm pretty sure that's a math thing. ;)
I wish I had something meaningful to contribute here but I really don't so I'll just ramble for a minute. Feel free to skip to the next post if that idea doesn't appeal to you.
I started carrying appendix part time in the late 90's with a G26 and then a G19. I didn't know anyone else who also carried aiwb back then so I never realized how dangerous it was. I'm amazed I didn't bleed out long ago. When I say I didn't know anyone else carrying aiwb, I mean competent folks who I associated with. Only about 20,000 NY cops were also carrying aiwb at the time, either off duty or on duty (as a backup weapon position, aiwb was pretty popular then in NY. No idea if it still is) Also, aiwb was probably the very first carry position when pistols were invented, so its not like its new or anything. None of us invented or popularized aiwb. I have mostly carried aiwb ever since, though I did take a break for a few years for reasons that may not be worth getting into now, but mostly involved not wanting to switch holster positions any more than I had to. On that note, I have seen plenty of people reach for guns that weren't where they thought they would be, both under timed stress and in FoF. As someone else already mentioned, you mostly see it with magazines, and I have seen everything from knives to batons to flashlights to cell phones get shoved into a pistol grip in the hopes that they would spit bullets. There are different reasons why that happens, and not all of them are relevant to this ramble but sometimes people do that when they expect a mag to be there and find something else instead. I'm reasonably certain that aspect also applies to other items besides mags.
Trivial question but I'm curious what holster was popular in the '90's for AIWB a Glock?
And I'll add this after reading your comments about trying to load cell phones. Personally, if a piece of my gear isn't in the same location it was when I was training it doesn't make me slow down and be safer. Honestly it does the opposite, it distracts me and causes me to lose track of the task at hand. That gets people killed.
Trooper224
12-09-2014, 01:13 PM
Being an Officer, do you have a retention device on your duty holster?
Yes.
Do you use the same retention device on your off duty rig or do you switch to an IWB?
No.
Does going back to the retention device cause any issues for you?
No. I find the lack of a retention device on my off-duty IWB holster eliminates any conflict in technology.
I noticed you carry a K9 as a BUG (It looks well loved and well worn…very nice). Do you carry it in an alternative location?
Alternative to what, carrying a bug in the same place as a primary weapon? If you can show me how that's feasible please do, I'd like to know. That point is a bit of a straw man argument.
I'm assuming you've worked with it from that carry location a good amount looking at the pistol.
Yes.
Does the "cross-wiring" come into play here too?
No. I believe my mental hard drive has been programmed enough to distinguish between the location of my primary and my BUG. I believe this is a different mental "switch" than remembering if my primary is AIWB or OWB on any given day. Under your logic here I'd better leave my carbine, shotgun and BUG at home because they're all different systems. You're spinning a very large web for this discussion.
How about the differences between the trigger on the Kahr and whatever duty pistol you carry?
The Kahr is a point and shoot weapon, my issued Glock 22 is a point and shoot weapon. Under stress the different feel of their triggers is neither noticeable or a hindrance. Sometimes I wear shoes to work and sometimes I wear boots, but I know how to lace up both. That's the kind of minutia you're trying to break the discussion down into.
jetfire
12-09-2014, 01:13 PM
I'm not sure how this applies to the holster, but if I move my mag pouch from 10 o'clock to 8 o'clock, I will screw up my reload. It's almost guaranteed.
Hell, if I move my mag pouch more than an inch or so it screws up my reload. I've spent a lot of time doing slide lock reloads to the same spot under an IDPA vest.
Wondering Beard
12-09-2014, 01:14 PM
Trivial question but I'm curious what holster was popular in the '90's for AIWB a Glock?
I'd say the Alessi Talon was one, or you could modify a Sparks Summer Special. I've used both.
Edited to add: I also used the Galco Scout for P220.
Trooper224
12-09-2014, 01:15 PM
I'm pretty sure that's a math thing. ;)
Well that's the problem right there! ;)
While I know SLG is big on "on demand performance," if I had a mulligan I would redo this thread as an eight question survey.
1) Do you regularly carry a handgun? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
2) Is appendix carry one of your regular carry methods? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
3) Is appendix your exclusive carry method? If yes, thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete. If no, please continue the survey.
4) Do you carry appendix and traditional 9/3 o'clockish? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
5) If you do carry appendix and 9/3 o'clockish, do you believe the consequences of an AD (not the risk of an AD from appendix) with the holster in the appendix position are more serious than with traditional OWB? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
6) Do you believe your special procedures effectively insulate you from the risk of an ND in the appendix position? If yes, thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
7) Do you believe that despite these risks, that appendix is a valuable carry method. If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
8) Please discuss what special procedures, beyond being careful while holstering and drawing, are possible to mitigate the consequences of an ND while appendix carrying.
ToddG
12-09-2014, 02:15 PM
1) Do you regularly carry a handgun?
YES
2) Is appendix carry one of your regular carry methods?
YES
3) Is appendix your exclusive carry method?
NO ... I use(d) 3 o'clock retention holsters when teaching some LE/mil type classes and also revert to an IWB or OWB at 3 o'clock if forced to wear an open front garment such as a suit coat.
4) Do you carry appendix and traditional 9/3 o'clockish?
YES
5) If you do carry appendix and 9/3 o'clockish, do you believe the consequences of an AD (not the risk of an AD from appendix) with the holster in the appendix position are more serious than with traditional OWB?
DEPENDS. Both have substantial risks depending on what kind of mistake you make. I see more people point the gun at themselves doing an OWB/3 o'clock reholster than I do an AIWB reholster, but I think that has more to due with people being especially aware/concerned about the danger of an AIWB AD than an inherent benefit or problem with AIWB/OWB carry.
6) Do you believe your special procedures effectively insulate you from the risk of an ND in the appendix position?
Effectively? YES. Perfectly? No, I'm still human and subject to human fallibility.
7) Do you believe that despite these risks, that appendix is a valuable carry method.
YES
8) Please discuss what special procedures, beyond being careful while holstering and drawing, are possible to mitigate the consequences of an ND while appendix carrying.
I choose to carry a firearm with an action that I can physically control while holstering, beyond simply keeping my finger off the trigger (positive manual safety, hammer I can control with my thumb, etc.).
I choose to use a holster which cants the muzzle away from my body to help reduce the chance of a serious injury in the event of an AD.
I utilize a draw stroke which keeps my finger off the trigger until I see my front sight on the target, drastically reducing the chance that I'll AD while drawing.
I never wear clothes that have straps, tabs, etc. which could interfere with or contact the trigger while holstering.
KevinB
12-09-2014, 02:16 PM
To humor George...
Actually when I do carry AIWB it is with a Shield with a safety.
For his Q #8 - I ensure the safety is on when I re-holster - then when the gun is seated, I flick it off. - I do the same thing with it when I carry that gun other places (even pockets - but I ensure the pocket has nothing else in it)
I sold my M&P9C the only other gun I was AIWB'ing - it also had a thumb safety...
If I was carrying a Glock AIWB I would prefer it to have the Gadget, but would not rule that carry method out without it.
- I'm pretty careful not getting stuff in Mr Triggerguard - but accidents happen.
I'm honestly not sure what the whole Bogeyman issue is with AIWB.
Wondering Beard
12-09-2014, 02:49 PM
While I know SLG is big on "on demand performance," if I had a mulligan I would redo this thread as an eight question survey.
1) Do you regularly carry a handgun? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
Yes
2) Is appendix carry one of your regular carry methods? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
Yes
3) Is appendix your exclusive carry method? If yes, thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete. If no, please continue the survey.
95% of the time
4) Do you carry appendix and traditional 9/3 o'clockish? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
Some forms of dress (like a suit) require strong side carry which used to be my normal form of carry until the late 90s or so. Otherwise, it's AIWB all the time.
5) If you do carry appendix and 9/3 o'clockish, do you believe the consequences of an AD (not the risk of an AD from appendix) with the holster in the appendix position are more serious than with traditional OWB? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
They can be, but like Todd, I have seen more people muzzling themselves when carrying strong side than with AIWB.
6) Do you believe your special procedures effectively insulate you from the risk of an ND in the appendix position? If yes, thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
Insulate: no. Reduce to the degree that they are effective: yes.
7) Do you believe that despite these risks, that appendix is a valuable carry method. If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
Yes
8) Please discuss what special procedures, beyond being careful while holstering and drawing, are possible to mitigate the consequences of an ND while appendix carrying.
Pretty much Todd's last three points.
AIWB is not for the newbie but I think that never or rarely live firing from AIWB is pushing things too far; just my opinion.
taadski
12-09-2014, 02:52 PM
Yes.
No.
No. I find the lack of a retention device on my off-duty IWB holster eliminates any conflict in technology.
Alternative to what, carrying a bug in the same place as a primary weapon? If you can show me how that's feasible please do, I'd like to know. That point is a bit of a straw man argument.
Yes.
No. I believe my mental hard drive has been programmed enough to distinguish between the location of my primary and my BUG. I believe this is a different mental "switch" than remembering if my primary is AIWB or OWB on any given day. Under your logic here I'd better leave my carbine, shotgun and BUG at home because they're all different systems. You're spinning a very large web for this discussion.
The Kahr is a point and shoot weapon, my issued Glock 22 is a point and shoot weapon. Under stress the different feel of their triggers is neither noticeable or a hindrance. Sometimes I wear shoes to work and sometimes I wear boots, but I know how to lace up both. That's the kind of minutia you're trying to break the discussion down into.
My questions, for the most part, were rhetorical. No straw men, webs or minutia. :) Their intent was to point out the fact that you have developed a means for adequately hardwiring a couple (or more) separate pathways for several carry options and would no doubt be comfortable utilizing each in defense of your person.
You have programmed your "mental hard drive" sufficiently. I'm just curious why you think it's such a stretch for other dedicated users.
Late to this game, but I will "tee off" with the survey. First off I will note that both sides have great arguments and no doubt the points that GJM is making are very legitimate concerns if we look at it across the board. Breaking it down and speaking in regards to individuals on a person to person basis is going to yield differing results.
As for myself.....
While I know SLG is big on "on demand performance," if I had a mulligan I would redo this thread as an eight question survey.
1) Do you regularly carry a handgun? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
Yes
2) Is appendix carry one of your regular carry methods? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
Yes
3) Is appendix your exclusive carry method? If yes, thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete. If no, please continue the survey.
Mostly, but not exclusive.
4) Do you carry appendix and traditional 9/3 o'clockish? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
Yes, I also carry in a man bag. Sometimes it is tough to carry in board shorts and a tank top.
5) If you do carry appendix and 9/3 o'clockish, do you believe the consequences of an AD (not the risk of an AD from appendix) with the holster in the appendix position are more serious than with traditional OWB? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
It depends. If the set up and technique is poor then there could be more of a risk. OTOH, we need to understand that the way in which many people present and then re-holster from hip carry, the weapon often covers the body in where the trajectory of a discharge could lead straight in the direction of the internal iliac arterties / veins which turns into the femoral. The bullet could easily travel this entire path. Also the hip girdle and the rigid bone structure could easily take an ND from this position and scramble that area including the gentile area. In both modes of carry I might surmise that technique could make one mode of carry more or less dangerous than the other, user dependent.
6) Do you believe your special procedures effectively insulate you from the risk of an ND in the appendix position? If yes, thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
Speaking only for myself and my own technique, I do not feel that either position is more prone to an ND then the other. /survey
7) Do you believe that despite these risks, that appendix is a valuable carry method. If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
8) Please discuss what special procedures, beyond being careful while holstering and drawing, are possible to mitigate the consequences of an ND while appendix carrying.
Mr_White
12-09-2014, 02:58 PM
While I know SLG is big on "on demand performance," if I had a mulligan I would redo this thread as an eight question survey.
1) Do you regularly carry a handgun? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
2) Is appendix carry one of your regular carry methods? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
3) Is appendix your exclusive carry method? If yes, thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete. If no, please continue the survey.
4) Do you carry appendix and traditional 9/3 o'clockish? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
5) If you do carry appendix and 9/3 o'clockish, do you believe the consequences of an AD (not the risk of an AD from appendix) with the holster in the appendix position are more serious than with traditional OWB? If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
6) Do you believe your special procedures effectively insulate you from the risk of an ND in the appendix position? If yes, thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
7) Do you believe that despite these risks, that appendix is a valuable carry method. If yes, please continue, otherwise thank you, no further response is requested, and the survey is complete.
8) Please discuss what special procedures, beyond being careful while holstering and drawing, are possible to mitigate the consequences of an ND while appendix carrying.
I'd answer yes to the first three, then I'd be out of the survey. I am reposting the following from another thread because it is effectively my answer to #8. And to directly speak to the way #8 is phrased, I'd put items A through G in the "being careful while holstering and drawing" category. So my real answers to #8 are items H through L.
______________________
AIWB with a striker-fired pistol can be undertaken safely through various combinations of the factors that make it harder to fire the gun, harder to hit yourself with the bullet, and harder to hit yourself as seriously with the bullet. Further, some of these factors require you do something right, and others work passively and don't require you to do anything.
Things you can do that require you do something right when holstering:
A. Trigger finger discipline
B. Hard break before holstering
C. Holster slowly and carefully
D. Look the gun into the holster
E. Bow your pelvis forward when holstering (helps keep muzzle out of alignment with your body)
F. Thumb check a manual safety or hammer
G. Thumb check a Gadget – not applicable unless you can find one
Things you can do that don't require you do something right when holstering:
H. Heavier trigger pull
I. Holster positioned between groin and leg
J. Big pads on the holster that prevent the muzzle from aligning with your body through flesh compression
K. Longer gun/holster will also make it harder for the muzzle to align with your body through flesh compression
L. Minimize clothing and gear near the holster so foreign matter is less available to get into the trigger guard
I lean hardest on A and J, but also on B, C, E, G, I, K, and L. I really prefer to have at least one factor from the second list, because those factors are not as subject to human error. I am a huge believer in trigger finger discipline and controlling muzzle direction with holster and body positioning and the big pads. My gun is pointed directly at my body very little of the time.
ToddG
12-09-2014, 03:05 PM
You have programmed your "mental hard drive" sufficiently. I'm just curious why you think it's such a stretch for other dedicated users.
Can't speak for Trooper but there is a significant difference between "hard wiring" your basic default reaction and "hard wiring" secondary actions made after conscious decision to employee them.
My favorite example, confirmed from talking to multiple people in the neuro team at Johns Hopkins, would be the oft-told myth that having a reload & malfunction clearance technique of similar action is somehow beneficial. It's simply not true. Your brain responds to a command "reload gun" and a command "clear malfunction" as two different things assuming you train that way. As such, you can have two completely different responses and they'll both become as autonomous as your level of practice allows.
Now, if you took the approach some people advocate and go through the exact same procedure whether it's a reload or a malf clearance, then yes you are creating just a single response to any cessation of the gun's ability to fire. The problem there from a shooter's standpoint is that you're drastically increasing the time it takes to reload your pistol which is the far more likely event unless your carry/duty pistol sucks butt.
Someone may argue that "draw while in plain clothes" and "draw while in duty gear" are equally separate planned responses like going for the backup, but it's simply not the case any more than "today I'm drawing my SIG but yesterday I would have drawn my VP9." That first startle response doesn't allow for much variability without being slowed down by decision tree branching. I think that was Trooper's point about having no retention device on his concealed carry holster. If he does go through the motions of clearing an SLS hood even when no such hood exists, it's not really impacting the draw of his concealment gun.
OTOH, if one used a SERPA on duty and a thumb snap off duty, I bet you'd very quickly see soup sandwiches on any unplanned stress-induced draw.
Trooper224
12-09-2014, 03:25 PM
Thank you Todd, that's it exactly.
Thanks to all who responded. I really do wish I had started the thread with the survey, as I think it would have gotten us further along quicker.
One interesting question, which I think is important and seems to be unresolved, is the relative severity of a ND suffered with an appendix holster versus a ND suffered with a OWB holster. Folks don't like Front Sight's instruction, but I do find their 20 incidents reports interesting. I am aware that Gunsite has had many self inflicted "holster" gunshots over about three decades, and to my knowledge, not a single person has died from one of these wounds. Taken along with the Front Sight data, it would seem to be enough of a sample to say it is possible but unlikely to die from a holstering gunshot with an OWB holster. Common sense would say the appendix ND will be worse, but that is speculation. I just don't know of enough incidents of self inflicted gunshots from appendix to say anything factual with any certainty.
There are a few topics that have arisen in this thread that would seem to warrant their own threads -- the role of dry fire in "hard wiring" responses used for winning a gunfight versus "pins and badges," and is Origami going overboard with his wedges (or are most folks under-wedged).
Mr_White
12-09-2014, 05:27 PM
One interesting question, which I think is important and seems to be unresolved, is the relative severity of a ND suffered with an appendix holster versus a ND suffered with a OWB holster.
I think the specifics of AIWB vary enough from person to person that you'd have to subdivide AIWB NDs into standing vs. sitting (which I would think will have worse injuries), and also consider exactly how the person placed the holster as well as the holster itself. I think those subtleties are what are going to play into an AIWB drawing/holstering ND that causes no injury or minor injury, as opposed to a fatal or permanently debilitating injury.
and is Origami going overboard with his wedges (or are most folks under-wedged).
Quite honestly, were it not for the ability of wedging to mostly keep the muzzle from aligning with my body, I'd probably be in the 'I'm uncomfortable with an SFA carried AIWB', or maybe 'I'm uncomfortable with AIWB, period' camp. I might have switched guns/action types completely several years ago, or more likely, just stuck with traditional strong side IWB and never really tried AIWB. Or maybe I'd have done a lot of thinking, considering, and experimenting and gone SFA AIWB anyway. Severe wedging kept me from having to make any of those choices though.
Wondering Beard
12-09-2014, 06:02 PM
Thanks to all who responded. I really do wish I had started the thread with the survey, as I think it would have gotten us further along quicker.
One interesting question, which I think is important and seems to be unresolved, is the relative severity of a ND suffered with an appendix holster versus a ND suffered with a OWB holster. Folks don't like Front Sight's instruction, but I do find their 20 incidents reports interesting. I am aware that Gunsite has had many self inflicted "holster" gunshots over about three decades, and to my knowledge, not a single person has died from one of these wounds. Taken along with the Front Sight data, it would seem to be enough of a sample to say it is possible but unlikely to die from a holstering gunshot with an OWB holster. Common sense would say the appendix ND will be worse, but that is speculation. I just don't know of enough incidents of self inflicted gunshots from appendix to say anything factual with any certainty.
There are a few topics that have arisen in this thread that would seem to warrant their own threads -- the role of dry fire in "hard wiring" responses used for winning a gunfight versus "pins and badges," and is Origami going overboard with his wedges (or are most folks under-wedged).
Come to think of it, have those OWB NDs been broken down into what exactly happened?
My limited experience has shown me plenty of students muzzling their sides when trying to find their holster with the muzzle of their guns (holster worn strong side). If their booger hook or something else got inside the trigger guard while doing that we could see plenty of shot up "love handles", rears and kidneys (or even spine). But since the only ND I saw live was due to a coat string getting into the trigger guard while the guy was reholstering into a straight drop holster (he scared himself badly, no injuries), I would be curious as to what was the most prevalent cause of NDs while reholstering and whether those actually apply to AIWB.
USAF422
12-09-2014, 06:15 PM
Can't speak for Trooper but there is a significant difference between "hard wiring" your basic default reaction and "hard wiring" secondary actions made after conscious decision to employee them.
My favorite example, confirmed from talking to multiple people in the neuro team at Johns Hopkins, would be the oft-told myth that having a reload & malfunction clearance technique of similar action is somehow beneficial. It's simply not true. Your brain responds to a command "reload gun" and a command "clear malfunction" as two different things assuming you train that way. As such, you can have two completely different responses and they'll both become as autonomous as your level of practice allows.
Now, if you took the approach some people advocate and go through the exact same procedure whether it's a reload or a malf clearance, then yes you are creating just a single response to any cessation of the gun's ability to fire. The problem there from a shooter's standpoint is that you're drastically increasing the time it takes to reload your pistol which is the far more likely event unless your carry/duty pistol sucks butt.
Someone may argue that "draw while in plain clothes" and "draw while in duty gear" are equally separate planned responses like going for the backup, but it's simply not the case any more than "today I'm drawing my SIG but yesterday I would have drawn my VP9." That first startle response doesn't allow for much variability without being slowed down by decision tree branching. I think that was Trooper's point about having no retention device on his concealed carry holster. If he does go through the motions of clearing an SLS hood even when no such hood exists, it's not really impacting the draw of his concealment gun.
OTOH, if one used a SERPA on duty and a thumb snap off duty, I bet you'd very quickly see soup sandwiches on any unplanned stress-induced draw.
How does this play out with a concelaed draws stroke vs unconcealed duty draw stroke. Would people be sweeping cover garments that are not there or would yoi see someone ripping their uniform shirt off trying to get to the gun? Or vice versa? Can someone differentiate betwenn "Im in uniform on duty, pistol on my strong side SLS holster" to "I'm in casual clothes with pistol AIWB""? When I think about it there is no perfect solution and even keeping the same holster postion could cause problems because one is concealed and the other is not so I could miss clearing my cover garment because I carry a pistol for more hours on duty then off. Does training both draw strokes limit these potentialities and make it easier to switch if such a thing exists. I could even see this beiing a problem when needing to shoot from number 2 instead of at full extension especially for AIWB.
JustOneGun
12-09-2014, 07:03 PM
How does this play out with a concelaed draws stroke vs unconcealed duty draw stroke. Would people be sweeping cover garments that are not there or would yoi see someone ripping their uniform shirt off trying to get to the gun? Or vice versa? Can someone differentiate betwenn "Im in uniform on duty, pistol on my strong side SLS holster" to "I'm in casual clothes with pistol AIWB""? When I think about it there is no perfect solution and even keeping the same holster postion could cause problems because one is concealed and the other is not so I could miss clearing my cover garment because I carry a pistol for more hours on duty then off. Does training both draw strokes limit these potentialities and make it easier to switch if such a thing exists. I could even see this beiing a problem when needing to shoot from number 2 instead of at full extension especially for AIWB.
I'm not Todd but for me while on duty I did just that, tried to draw the gun that was not there. The odd part was that I did not have a problem drawing an outside the waistband holster with FBI cant in a similar position but about an inch higher than my duty gun which was a straight drop holster.
With all this talk about trying to draw the wrong holster I think it is important to note that it doesn't happen all the time and if you practice both it doesn't happen often. But it does happen and usually under stress. It is as though the default switch just gets hit sometimes. It happened enough that I realized that I could not overcome it and switched back to OWB hip just like the duty gun.
As for the different holsters it can be a problem depending on the holster. It is the same dynamic when someone would forget to put their hood up on the SLS and when the next course of fire came the shooter was mentally looking for the hood that was not there and bam, 2 second draw and usually a relatively wild first shot. I was using the ALS when I tried switching and didn't have a problem because the way I build my grip was consistent (i.e. I never noticed the lever after I got used to it.)
ToddG
12-09-2014, 09:18 PM
How does this play out with a concelaed draws stroke vs unconcealed duty draw stroke.
Everyone is different and I'm sure it affects some people more than others. I know from experience that I'm just about the worst person when it comes to transitioning from one system/position/whatever to another. Because of this, I'm not comfortable shooting, say, IDPA with a 3 o'clock holster but carrying AIWB.
As mentioned above, one of the most difficult parts is testing yourself. It's easy to show up at a match, know that the buzzer is going off in three seconds, and think about your drawstroke: exactly where the gun is, exactly what gun, exactly where your mag pouches are, exactly what your starting position is, and so forth. It's much harder (or at least much less safe) to have someone randomly attack you on the street to see if you perform properly without that few seconds immediately prior to think things through. When people say I never have problems at matches to me it's like saying I can do anything if I think it through first. Whoopee.
In my experience, people inevitably do most of their practice for the game (which has definite and immediate competitive results) and slack off on their actual carry gear (which is purely theoretical in need ... until the moment someone actually needs it). In other words, they put the major effort into preparing for the game and just assume it will all automatically change "as needed" when the boogeyman appears suddenly in front of them.
1) I have cajoled YVK into doing some "education" on the anatomy and considerations of a gunshot wound to the groin area. He makes his living in arteries, so I think this will be excellent. Might be a few days, but I think it will be well worth it.
2) Regarding the "not knowing where your gun is issue," is there anyone carrying IWB with a service sized pistol that doesn't always know exactly the position of their gun? I really get the Clint Smith saying that a gun is supposed to be "comforting not comfortable," because I am acutely aware at every moment where my gun is, based on where the thing is sticking me. Anyone who carries a rifle slung, ever forget where it is on their body? I understand misplacing your cell phone, or forgetting the location of a magazine, but a 2-3 pound loaded pistol isn't the same as a phone or mag.
ToddG
12-09-2014, 10:14 PM
I understand misplacing your cell phone, or forgetting the location of a magazine, but a 2-3 pound loaded pistol isn't the same as a phone or mag.
And yet people in this thread have specifically stated that it's happened to them and/or they've seen it happen to others under stress.
This is what that whole preconscious slash subconscious competence slash hard wired slash habituated thing is all about. It's not whether you can feel the gun when you're thinking. It's about what you've trained your hands to do when the flag goes up, whether that flag is a shot timer's beep, a target turning, or an actual threat to your life.
I have followed this thread as closely as one can do while handling a horror of my best friend's suffering from a devastating brain injury. George's right (and I am sure everyone understands that he's well intended in stirring this), I might be able to provide some helpful info, but it might be awhile.
Give your loved ones a hug today, and as often as you can.
And yet people in this thread have specifically stated that it's happened to them and/or they've seen it happen to others under stress.
This is what that whole preconscious slash subconscious competence slash hard wired slash habituated thing is all about. It's not whether you can feel the gun when you're thinking. It's about what you've trained your hands to do when the flag goes up, whether that flag is a shot timer's beep, a target turning, or an actual threat to your life.
So what is your suggestion, except to carry one gun in each position, for the 70 or 80 percent of appendix carriers, who also carry a pistol at 9/3 o'clock? Presumably no amount of dry fire or live fire can resolve this issue, since wherever the gun is, confusion could cause one to go to the other place.
George,
I ask this in all sincerity - have you been hanging out with liberal politicians lately? We can't help you if you can't admit to the problem.
DocGKR
12-09-2014, 10:56 PM
1) Yes
2) Yes, 90% of the time
3) No
4) Yes
5) Depends
6) Depends
7) Yes
8) Holster type, holster position, muzzle position, lots of dry fire repetitions stressing safety, visually monitoring holstering effort
Paul D
12-09-2014, 10:56 PM
If you feel a pulse in your groin, that is typically your common femoral artery. Make an imaginary line from there to your belly button and that is course that artery takes (as the iliac artery ) to your aorta. The femoral artery running towards your foot actually dives more posterior and away from the surface of your front thigh. When I wear my JMCK AIWB for the Glock 17, the muzzle vector is medial to the pulse and points down perpendicular to the ground. Thus the vector of the barrel and the artery diverge from each other. When drawing the pistol, my forearm and wrist are generally aligned straight and goes at 45 degree angle away from my leg. Thus when I grab it, the muzzle tends to points toward my midline and away from the femoral pulse. The only way I can point it towards the artery is if I ulnar flex my hand (which is unnatural). When I holster the gun, it tends to point more its original vector. For me, the most deliberate and careful part of this process in during holstering (ie clear away clothing, make sure the holster channel is clear and to push the end of the holster away from my body when I re-holster).
http://img.medscape.com/fullsize/migrated/549/317/549317.fig2.gif
ToddG
12-09-2014, 11:01 PM
So what is your suggestion
Same as it's always been: carry the same gun (or as close to it as possible) in the same holster (or as close to it as possible) in the same location (or as close to it as possible) every single day (or as close to it as possible).
for the 70 or 80 percent of appendix carriers, who also carry a pistol at 9/3 o'clock?
You got that number from... where? If it's the small handful of people responding to your mid-thread "poll" then almost every one of the people who said they also carry strong side specifically said they do so very, very rarely and only under unusual circumstances.
Same as it's always been: carry the same gun (or as close to it as possible) in the same holster (or as close to it as possible) in the same location (or as close to it as possible) every single day (or as close to it as possible).
You got that number from... where? If it's the small handful of people responding to your mid-thread "poll" then almost every one of the people who said they also carry strong side specifically said they do so very, very rarely and only under unusual circumstances.
The number is a wag based on my friends and people I meet shooting. I suspect PF is the most appendix carrying group in the world, and I would bet one of those PF dollars my wag holds true even here, and surely the carry appendix and 9/3 percentage is way higher in the world at large. Consider the following folks who would carry 9/3 in addition to appendix, if they do carry appendix:
1) every IDPA shooter
2) every USPSA Production shooter
3) every uniformed LE officer
4) every person using a retention holster
5) most everyone I know through PF with the exception of you, Gabe and JV.
DocGKR
12-09-2014, 11:37 PM
FWIW, the only time in 30 years of carrying a handgun that I had a potentially significant injury inducing accident was with a OWB holster, so for me, AIWB has proven much safer...
Paul, that's exactly what I meant to post, the femoral angiogram. Thank you. Since you did the hard part , I'd just add:
- there is a significant variation between superficial skin landmarks and therefore holster location and exact location of vascular structures. When George asked me if a vascular model is possible, I said it would not be generalizable
- while a point of max impulse is generally a common femoral, a part of the vessel just opposite of the femoral bone's head on Paul's photo, it doesn't have to be. More so, a single point tells you nothing about vessel's course. Hence, if one is feeling a pulse at just one spot, he/she cannot say the exact relationship of vessel course and muzzle axis
- holster positions, draw techniques and angulations vary, and all of the above precludes any reasonable generalization, except for the next one
- even if bullet hits below the bifurcation, you're still hitting a huge proximal vessel, as opposed to OWB ND. There is very little doubt that anatomically AIWB is more dangerous than any other mode that jeopardizes more distal vessel. Epidemilogically, we would have to compare rates but we don't and unlikely will have them.
My general suggestion is to palpate a course of own femoral, not just one spot, and mark it. Use skin scratch marks from your practice (if you use undershirt, ditch it for a few days) or marked outlines of a grip and superimpose your unloaded holstered gun. Now there is a better idea of intersections etc. Then you have to figure out if you're inadvertently muzzling during your 1.2 sec draw; that generally should involve a side view slo mo video and assessment of artery's depth.
If you have not done any of that, I submit that you have very little knowledge of your own arterial-muzzle relationships. That obviously is not a requirement for a safe AIWB carry, but for me it was very helpful in confirming (I didn't do it right off) my approach to risk mitigation.
Sigfan26
12-09-2014, 11:59 PM
If I'm carrying OWB, it's 2:30-3:00. I always carry appendix IWB.
I am not sure an ND is likely to result from a normal draw. I would think by definition an ND is not a normal draw, and all bets would be off as to where the bullet would hit.
For the docs, I am curious for a normal weight/size person, what percentage of the volume of surface area of the groin area is likely to result in a surely fatal wound if hit, what percentage of the volume of the groin is likely to result in a possible fatal wound without fast hospital treatment, and what percentage is likely to be merely bad. In other words, if possible, a guess at the odds of dying from a random shot to the groin?
Does the collection of 20 incident reports of strong side shootings at Front Sight without a fatality allow you to estimate a probability of surviving a typical strong side gun shot from drawing/holstering?
Cookie Monster
12-10-2014, 12:12 AM
1) I understand misplacing your cell phone, or forgetting the location of a magazine, but a 2-3 pound loaded pistol isn't the same as a phone or mag.
I have on a few occasions had a brief moment of freak out, wondering if my Glock 26 in my 5 Shot Leather Pocket Holster is still in my pocket. Which it always is.
Cookie Monster
Cookie Monster
12-10-2014, 12:15 AM
Does the collection of 20 incident reports of strong side shootings at Front Sight without a fatality allow you to estimate a probability of surviving a typical strong side gun shot from drawing/holstering?
From being there, Front Sight has trauma kits on the range, EMT's on site, and you get packaged into a helicopter for a ride to Trauma Center in Las Vegas in a pretty efficient manner, last time I was there was 2010/2011?
Cookie Monster
Sigfan26
12-10-2014, 12:26 AM
Can honestly say, i have never forgotten my gun was there... Always carried a full sized service pistol, though (aside from the occasional NPE).
ToddG
12-10-2014, 12:31 AM
The number is a wag based on my friends and people I meet shooting.
How many of them answered every question in your survey?
What was the purpose of that survey if you were simply going to ignore the results when they didn't fit the numbers you wanted to use? By my count, five people answered. By your own claim, two of those five essentially carry aiwb exclusively (as does someone you listed who didn't answer your survey). One said 95% of the time, one said 90% of the time, and the other said except when he's carrying off-body.
1) every IDPA shooter
How many or what percentage of IDPA shooters carry aiwb with any frequency? Unless you can provide a solid number for that, your comment is basically meaningless.
2) every USPSA Production shooter
How many or what percentage of USPSA Production shooters carry aiwb with any frequency? Gabe chooses to shoot in Limited specifically so he can shoot aiwb, does he not? I would certainly do the same as would plenty of others. Unless you can provide a solid number, your comment is basically meaningless.
3) every uniformed LE officer
How many or what percentage?
4) every person using a retention holster
I don't even get this one...
5) most everyone I know through PF with the exception of you, Gabe and JV.
What percentage of PF aiwb carriers do you know? Because at least from the survey responses, MOST of the people who aiwb do so exclusively except under very limited and infrequent circumstances...
You really need to stop cherry picking data and facts. For example, a number of people have pointed out that we often see folks holstering OWB or IWB by pointing the gun straight into their sides. An AD there would result in a round going straight through the width of their abdomen. How dangerous do you think that would be?
Ditto the one fatality you've pointed out. What was that shooter doing at the time of the accident? Was he drawing or holstering? What if any drill was he practicing? What if any holster was he using? When was the last time he had alcohol or any drugs (medications or otherwise)? What was his state for mind at the time of the incident? What level of experience did he have using an aiwb holster? What if any formal training did he have in the use of an aiwb holster? Had he ever so much as read an online thread about aiwb holsters and the precautions one should take? Had he ever shot himself previously using any other kind of holster?
It's like you're trying to put a puzzle together with a sledgehammer because it's too hard to get the pieces to fit where you want...
DocGKR
12-10-2014, 12:40 AM
"4) every person using a retention holster
I don't even get this one..."
I suspect GLM is referencing that just about every SLS/ALS and other Safariland duty holster is a OWB 3 o'clock style holster.
ToddG
12-10-2014, 12:44 AM
Ah. Gotcha.
G, I would struggle to answer most of your questions. CFA average diameter is 8 mm and it is proportional to body size. Its branches, SFA and profunda, are about 5 mm inch, so combined 10. They span entire groin vertically, but the day I know the average groin surface area will be the day I check myself in (although I bet burn docs might know). The groin area may not even matter, only muzzled area which is impossible to estimate.
There are just too many variables, partial tear, complete tear, artery alone or artery+vein, no vascular injury at all. We should consider a possibility of contralateral leg hit (reverse cant AIWB + stance with contralateral leg slightly forward).
I think that best guess for mortality odds would be mortality from pelvic shots.
My personal expectation is that no one immediately unassisted will survive a direct hit to CFA, regardless of proximity to a hospital. It is just too hard to self compress (I would use the pistol itself). Proximal SFA, probably the same. If assisted immediately and EMTs are quick to volume resuscitate, and hospital is close, I think they'll make it.
I expect mortality from a conventional owb nd (postero lateral thigh, calf or both) be trivial , incliding a vascular hit, except if they panic and do not tourniquet, or if alone in woods etc.
Why don't we do a poll on PF -- how do we set it up as its own thread? I propose the question should be "if you currently use an appendix holster as a carry method, do you also train or carry with a holster placed in a different position? Choice of response, yes or no.
My bet is the yes response is north of 80 percent on PF and north of 95 percent in the world at large.
orionz06
12-10-2014, 06:52 AM
I would also be interested to see if those also using another position are doing it to adhere to rules of some game.
Why don't we do a poll on PF -- how do we set it up as its own thread?
Make a new thread. Then, look in the section called "Additional Options" -> "Post a Poll"
taadski
12-10-2014, 12:18 PM
Can't speak for Trooper but there is a significant difference between "hard wiring" your basic default reaction and "hard wiring" secondary actions made after conscious decision to employee them.
My favorite example, confirmed from talking to multiple people in the neuro team at Johns Hopkins, would be the oft-told myth that having a reload & malfunction clearance technique of similar action is somehow beneficial. It's simply not true. Your brain responds to a command "reload gun" and a command "clear malfunction" as two different things assuming you train that way. As such, you can have two completely different responses and they'll both become as autonomous as your level of practice allows.
Now, if you took the approach some people advocate and go through the exact same procedure whether it's a reload or a malf clearance, then yes you are creating just a single response to any cessation of the gun's ability to fire. The problem there from a shooter's standpoint is that you're drastically increasing the time it takes to reload your pistol which is the far more likely event unless your carry/duty pistol sucks butt.
Someone may argue that "draw while in plain clothes" and "draw while in duty gear" are equally separate planned responses like going for the backup, but it's simply not the case any more than "today I'm drawing my SIG but yesterday I would have drawn my VP9." That first startle response doesn't allow for much variability without being slowed down by decision tree branching. I think that was Trooper's point about having no retention device on his concealed carry holster. If he does go through the motions of clearing an SLS hood even when no such hood exists, it's not really impacting the draw of his concealment gun.
OTOH, if one used a SERPA on duty and a thumb snap off duty, I bet you'd very quickly see soup sandwiches on any unplanned stress-induced draw.
Thanks Todd, for stepping in and clarifying. I understand the whole Hick's Law conundrum. I've been of a mind that my default draw does indeed have two different pathways and that these are dependent on whether I'm in a duty capacity or not. I carry a BUG in appendix on duty. Off duty I carry my service pistol appendix full time. Perhaps I'm fooling myself and I have created an unintentional branch decision. That said I haven't yet had an incident during which I attempted to draw the wrong gun or one that wasn't there. And that's factoring in a lot of years of duty carry, a pretty extensive force on force based training schedule and a bunch of competitive shooting (I read Trooper224's and your sentiments re matches; the mental prep, etc…and I agree, FWIW).
I thought USAF422's comments were notable. It would seem like the sentiment is that anyone who carries a pistol in an OWB holster is creating an issue themselves if they also carry in some form of concealment. I base this on the fact that the mechanics of the draw are going to have to change, at least subtly to address whatever concealment garment is being used, strong side IWB or not. Also of interest is the fact that most folks I know that carry strong side IWB aren't doing so at the 3:00 like their duty/OWB holsters but shift it more rearward to allow for better concealment thus creating further disparity. A decision branch regardless, so it would seem.
I've found that most of the issues associated with retention holsters occur when folks go from using holsters without any retention and then go BACK to their duty rigs, not the other way around. So, yeah, if folks are doing a majority of their training with the retention holster, I agree, it's likely going to be a non-issue. Unfortunately that's not what a lot of folks do, IME.
Anyway, good discussion as usual (albeit a skosh off topic. :p)
ToddG
12-10-2014, 12:25 PM
That said I haven't yet had an incident during which I attempted to draw the wrong gun or one that wasn't there.
How many times have you drawn your appendix gun (backup on duty or primary off duty) under sudden unexpected attack? Basically, you've demonstrated that your primary duty gear is definitely doable preconsciously. Has the other mode of carry been tested the same way?
I've found that most of the issues associated with retention holsters occur when folks go from using holsters without any retention and then go BACK to their duty rigs, not the other way around. So, yeah, if folks are doing a majority of their training with the retention holster, I agree, it's likely going to be a non-issue. Unfortunately that's not what a lot of folks do, IME.
Absolutely, and it goes to my point about focussing on competition shooting: the more time you put behind the easier (unconcealed OWB) draw, the more likely you are to encounter issues if forced to do the more complex draw (concealed aiwb/iwb) under that sudden counter-ambush situation.
taadski
12-10-2014, 12:50 PM
How many times have you drawn your appendix gun (backup on duty or primary off duty) under sudden unexpected attack? Basically, you've demonstrated that your primary duty gear is definitely doable preconsciously. Has the other mode of carry been tested the same way?
Absolutely, and it goes to my point about focussing on competition shooting: the more time you put behind the easier (unconcealed OWB) draw, the more likely you are to encounter issues if forced to do the more complex draw (concealed aiwb/iwb) under that sudden counter-ambush situation.
I'll admit not as intensively, for sure. But we've conducted a number of "reality based" evolutions to address off-duty carry concerns that involved responding to sudden threats. I've also been through Craig's ECQC curriculum during which I was working from AIWB. But I do spend more focus on my work equipment for certain.
t
ToddG
12-10-2014, 12:56 PM
So my question (sincere) is do you think that your ability to plan/prepare right before those simulations/evos begin while you're carrying aiwb might skew your ability to react properly?
frozentundra
12-10-2014, 01:21 PM
I seem to recall reading something that Tom Givens wrote about not being a fan of changing carry positions. To the best of my recollection, he had an incident while doing some scenario based training where he was reaching for a gun that was not there. I think it was going for strong side, when he only had a j frame in pocket. As I recall, it changed his outlook on the matter somewhat.
I'm not sure if it was an article, or a post on a forum. Does anybody else remember this, or able to find a link?
JustOneGun
12-10-2014, 01:52 PM
How many times have you drawn your appendix gun (backup on duty or primary off duty) under sudden unexpected attack? Basically, you've demonstrated that your primary duty gear is definitely doable preconsciously. Has the other mode of carry been tested the same way?
Absolutely, and it goes to my point about focussing on competition shooting: the more time you put behind the easier (unconcealed OWB) draw, the more likely you are to encounter issues if forced to do the more complex draw (concealed aiwb/iwb) under that sudden counter-ambush situation.
Todd, you hit the nail on the heade. That primary draw is something to think about. For me there was a definite default to go to the hip. I believe because my AIWB was new, not hardwired and pretty darn slow. I experimented with trying to equal my practice and draws to see if I could make the mental switch and draw each without a hard default. It actually made it worse. I had been defaulting to my duty rig. After bringing the AIWB up to par it was hit or miss what I would draw to. I suspect I had actually doubled the chance of my reaching for the ghost gun.
In my experience having two different draws and just practicing each draw equally will not fix the problem but make it worse. I really don't see any way around it. For the serious competition shooter it appears to be making a choice of having a hard default AIWB with a chance to screw up your hobby or to have a great competition draw with a chance to screw up your gunfight. Or just pick a draw that you must do, usually hip, and make it the best darn draw you've ever had.
Plus I'm lazy, having one draw cut my practice time on the draw in half. If you're not lazy you can just double your draw practice time and be really fast. ;)
USAF422
12-10-2014, 03:13 PM
So my question (sincere) is do you think that your ability to plan/prepare right before those simulations/evos begin while you're carrying aiwb might skew your ability to react properly?
Could this not also apply to planning and preparing for duty vs ccw? Also during that instant attack without prep how will you know that your gun is concealed instead of open? If you are aware enough to know its concealed I feel like location of gun is not as big a deal.
taadski
12-10-2014, 03:23 PM
So my question (sincere) is do you think that your ability to plan/prepare right before those simulations/evos begin while you're carrying aiwb might skew your ability to react properly?
I think that's fair. To some extent, I'm sure. But I also believe there's some level of similar preemptive programming that goes on when that's all I'm carrying too.
I can tell you definitively that doing regular work on the timer with my duty holster, for example, has led to significant improvements in my appendix draw and OWB draws. Just as a data point, but I think they're programmed less differently than perhaps some think.
t
ETA It would appear I was typing at the same time as USAF422, but yeah…that...
ToddG
12-10-2014, 03:24 PM
Could this not also apply to planning and preparing for duty vs ccw?
Spending time at home "preparing" may help, but I do not think it provides nearly the same assurance as "I'm about to shoot this USPSA stage, and I'm going to draw from the gun on my hip when the buzzer goes off" or "Well, time to do a FoF exercise with my concealment gun."
JodyH
12-10-2014, 05:25 PM
I know that holster location affects my presentation speed much more than cover garments, the pistol I'm shooting or which AIWB holster I'm utilizing.
My concealed AIWB draw to hit -0 times at 7 yards are all within .25 second (from 1 to 1.25) whether I'm shooting a J-frame in a VG2, a PPS in a Darkstar kydex or a P2000 in a leather holster, but my time from a open carry strong side kydex OWB is a full .25 slower than my slowest AIWB times, usually in the 1.5 range.
Tom Givens
12-10-2014, 06:26 PM
Frozentundra mentioned an anecdote of mine and asked for clarification, so here it is.
The first time I attended the NTI in Harrisburg, PA, was probably 15 years ago. For those who may not be familiar with it the National Tactical Invitational was a five-day annual event. There were live fire stages on various ranges and in several shoot-houses. The highlight of the event, however, was for each attendee to spend four hours, either all morning or all afternoon in The Village. This was a multi-acre fenced in area with stand alone buildings. They were set up to resemble office areas, and other commercial locations. There were dozens of trained role players in the village. Each attendee would be given a series of tasks to perform, such as "take these papers to your attorney", "get this check cashed at the bank", "pick up your prescription at the pharmacy", and "turn in your rental car". This required you to move throughout the village and interact with the role players who simulated the staff and other customers of these various businesses. As with real-life most were benign and simply doing their own thing. At some point, however, you might run into a predator and have to deal with them.
My first trip I was unaware of the details. I did not know that prior to entry into The Village, the attendees were physically searched and all equipment taken from them . Once they were verified clear of all weapons, they were issued a snubby modified to only accept marking cartriges and given a handful of Sims rounds. Since I did not know this in advance, I did not have a holster for the snubby they issued me. So, I put it in my right front pants pocket.
At that time, 15 years ago, I had been wearing a pistol on my right hip on the belt at about 4 o'clock for 29 years, everyday, all day. I had had extensive training and I had completed 25 years in various law enforcement jobs all wearing a gun in that same place. I had drawn a gun from that carry placement a number of times for real, both in uniform and in concealed carry. Maybe an hour to an hour and a half into The Village I was in an encounter in which I decided it was time to shoot. I swept my Concealed Carry Clothiers tropic vest cleanly and swiftly out of the way and closed my right hand grasp around a big handful of air. Oh shit! I then slid my hand into my pants pocket and got a good grip on the snubby, clearing my pocket just as a Sims round hit me squarely over the left lung.
I knew intellectually that I put a snubby in my pocket an hour and a half earlier . Under stress however, I reverted to programming and reached where my service pistol OUGHT TO BE.
Replaying this event in my mind later, I became convinced that I would have reacted the same way in a real encounter. From then on, when I attended the NTI I always took with me a snubby belt holster I could put on my belt at 4 o'clock prior to entering The Village. I never had that problem again and was never "killed" again in The Village over several subsequent years .
Prior to this experience I had already been a strong proponent of carrying your gear in the same place and carrying the same type of gear religiously . For instance if someone carried a semiautomatic service pistol but wanted something smaller for off-duty, I strongly urged them to get a smaller gun that operated exactly the same way as their duty gun. Wearing the same basic type of gun and wearing it in the same place would make problems like the one I described above far less likely. My experience at the NTI just deeply reinforced that notion .
I allow AIWB carry in my live fire classes specifically because I don't want people using some other type of gear if AIWB is what they really carry.
I am not a proponent of AIWB carry , not because of safety issues, but because no one that I know carries that way ALL OF THE TIME. I can, in fact, carry a gun at 4 o'clock on my belt whether it is my full-size pistol IWB, or snubby IWB, or hunting pistol OWB. By changing outer garments I can adapt to different concealment requirements, but my pistol is always in the same place and the draw stroke will essentially be the same. The experience I described above and other observations over four decades of training people lead me to be concerned that someone who does all his range work from AIWB but then has his gun at 4 o'clock because he's not dressed in a manner that allows an un-tucked shirt will reach first where he thinks the gun ought to be and then reaches for 4 o'clock . That delay in the presentation could be a serious issue. YMMV.
To me the whole purpose of repetitive practice both in dry fire and live fire on the range is to program a desired response and make it an automatic response to certain stimuli. I think it would be a lot easier to automate one response than to automate two separate responses to the same set of stimuli. I have been in several hairy situations in real life in which my gun appeared in hand with absolutely no conscious decision to produce it. I believe this was a product of always wearing the gun in the same place and doing ALL presentation practice, dry and live, from that consistent location. I don't dictate carry position in class, as it's your butt at risk, not mine.
http://www.ksat.com/content/pns/ksat/news/2014/10/28/bexar-probation-officer-killed-in-accidental-shooting-identified.html
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Bexar-County-probation-officer-dies-in-apparent-5851471.php
George,
I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I don't AIWB but just wanted to provide some background regarding this incident.
The majority of Bexar County probation officers aren't armed. They have two armed field teams which do home and employment visits but the deceased was not a member of those teams.
I agree it seems likely to involve AIWB based on public reports, however, it has not been confirmed the deceased was using AIWB carry at the time of this incident. I have inquired regarding the details of this incident. I've received two different stories "through the grapevine" from Local LE. Version one was the deceased pointed the muzzle at himself while trying to clear a malfunction with his finger on the trigger. Version two was the deceased and another off duty probation officer were conducting "fast draw practice" but it was not specified whether this occured while drawing or re-holstering or what type of holster/carry / handgun was involved. I'll advise when clarification is received.
Frozentundra mentioned an anecdote of mine and asked for clarification, so here it is.
I am not a proponent of AIWB carry , not because of safety issues, but because no one that I know carries that way ALL OF THE TIME. I can, in fact, carry a gun at 4 o'clock on my belt whether it is my full-size pistol IWB, or snubby IWB, or hunting pistol OWB. By changing outer garments I can adapt to different concealment requirements, but my pistol is always in the same place and the draw stroke will essentially be the same. The experience I described above and other observations over four decades of training people lead me to be concerned that someone who does all his range work from AIWB but then has his gun at 4 o'clock because he's not dressed in a manner that allows an un-tucked shirt will reach first where he thinks the gun ought to be and then reaches for 4 o'clock . That delay in the presentation could be a serious issue. YMMV.
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Appreciate the details very much! FWIW where I really got into AIWB was while on active duty in NPE and later in an NPE with children and family. When you have to bend forward a lot, AIWB is very useful.
frozentundra
12-10-2014, 07:37 PM
I knew intellectually that I put a snubby in my pocket an hour and a half earlier . Under stress however, I reverted to programming and reached where my service pistol OUGHT TO BE.
Wow, thanks for taking the time Tom. I was fuzzy on the back story and the details, but I remember my takeaway clearly:
If this can happen to Tom Givens in a known training situation, the chances of it happening to me in a violent encounter are high.
I have spent quite a bit of time with tool belts in my life. When I need a tool from my pouches it usually just winds up in my hands without me thinking much about it, until it isn't where I usually put it. I think that if I used two different setups, I would be frisking myself quite often. I may be more prone to this than most people though.
Wow, thanks for taking the time Tom. I was fuzzy on the back story and the details, but I remember my takeaway clearly:
If this can happen to Tom Givens in a known training situation, the chances of it happening to me in a violent encounter are high.
I have spent quite a bit of time with tool belts in my life. When I need a tool from my pouches it usually just winds up in my hands without me thinking much about it, until it isn't where I usually put it. I think that if I used two different setups, I would be frisking myself quite often. I may be more prone to this than most people though.
There are "programming" factors here in that it was sort of ad hoc he stuffed the J frame in his pocket for lack of another option. He doesn't leave the house that way. Just sayin'
frozentundra
12-10-2014, 09:06 PM
There are "programming" factors here in that it was sort of ad hoc he stuffed the J frame in his pocket for lack of another option. He doesn't leave the house that way. Just sayin'
It's true, this is an extreme example of having to make a conscious decision about how to access your gear, but he also knew to expect some kind of attack, and there was probably not a lot of fear involved. And he is Tom Givens:cool:.
Why do we encourage folks to live fire from appendix carry?
If programming plays a factor, then never drawing from my carry position and firing live rounds(does not goes bang), might be programming me backwards. If I only ever hear a bang when I draw from OWB, then I might try to go there when I must have bang right now!!! At least that would be my concern. But I'm the kind of person who can be shocked and dumbfounded when I find that I am not wearing my wrist watch. Two choices are a lot for me to process between.
I know that holster location affects my presentation speed much more than cover garments, the pistol I'm shooting or which AIWB holster I'm utilizing.
My concealed AIWB draw to hit -0 times at 7 yards are all within .25 second (from 1 to 1.25) whether I'm shooting a J-frame in a VG2, a PPS in a Darkstar kydex or a P2000 in a leather holster, but my time from a open carry strong side kydex OWB is a full .25 slower than my slowest AIWB times, usually in the 1.5 range.
Your OWB draw times are solely a training issue. I would expect practiced open OWB to be .10-.15 faster than concealed AIWB, not including the possible disaster factor with clearing the cover garment.
TCinVA
12-10-2014, 09:54 PM
To bring another data point to the table, I carry a P30 which has a magazine release that's unlike the magazine release on most handguns. On the clock when using another gun I've found myself attempting to operate the controls of the P30 even though I'm not holding one. Similarly when handling a different pistol for an extended period of time I've found myself going for the button that isn't there on my P30...to the point that now when I've spent time shooting other pistols at the range I will take the time to do a few manipulations with my P30 just to be sure that the last thing in my brain is using the controls of the pistol I'm going to pull should I need to defend myself.
If I'm capable of confusing a magazine release in that manner, I'm probably capable of munging a draw from a different location when I'm task loaded dealing with a developing threat.
To bring another data point to the table, I carry a P30 which has a magazine release that's unlike the magazine release on most handguns. On the clock when using another gun I've found myself attempting to operate the controls of the P30 even though I'm not holding one. Similarly when handling a different pistol for an extended period of time I've found myself going for the button that isn't there on my P30...to the point that now when I've spent time shooting other pistols at the range I will take the time to do a few manipulations with my P30 just to be sure that the last thing in my brain is using the controls of the pistol I'm going to pull should I need to defend myself.
If I'm capable of confusing a magazine release in that manner, I'm probably capable of munging a draw from a different location when I'm task loaded dealing with a developing threat.
I do the same thing. The P99 has a unique decocker that I find myself constantly trying to activate on my G19 when I first get it out to shoot.
Jay Cunningham
12-10-2014, 10:46 PM
Frozentundra mentioned an anecdote of mine and asked for clarification, so here it is.
The first time I attended the NTI in Harrisburg, PA, was probably 15 years ago. For those who may not be familiar with it the National Tactical Invitational was a five-day annual event. There were live fire stages on various ranges and in several shoot-houses. The highlight of the event, however, was for each attendee to spend four hours, either all morning or all afternoon in The Village. This was a multi-acre fenced in area with stand alone buildings. They were set up to resemble office areas, and other commercial locations. There were dozens of trained role players in the village. Each attendee would be given a series of tasks to perform, such as "take these papers to your attorney", "get this check cashed at the bank", "pick up your prescription at the pharmacy", and "turn in your rental car". This required you to move throughout the village and interact with the role players who simulated the staff and other customers of these various businesses. As with real-life most were benign and simply doing their own thing. At some point, however, you might run into a predator and have to deal with them.
My first trip I was unaware of the details. I did not know that prior to entry into The Village, the attendees were physically searched and all equipment taken from them . Once they were verified clear of all weapons, they were issued a snubby modified to only accept marking cartriges and given a handful of Sims rounds. Since I did not know this in advance, I did not have a holster for the snubby they issued me. So, I put it in my right front pants pocket.
At that time, 15 years ago, I had been wearing a pistol on my right hip on the belt at about 4 o'clock for 29 years, everyday, all day. I had had extensive training and I had completed 25 years in various law enforcement jobs all wearing a gun in that same place. I had drawn a gun from that carry placement a number of times for real, both in uniform and in concealed carry. Maybe an hour to an hour and a half into The Village I was in an encounter in which I decided it was time to shoot. I swept my Concealed Carry Clothiers tropic vest cleanly and swiftly out of the way and closed my right hand grasp around a big handful of air. Oh shit! I then slid my hand into my pants pocket and got a good grip on the snubby, clearing my pocket just as a Sims round hit me squarely over the left lung.
I knew intellectually that I put a snubby in my pocket an hour and a half earlier . Under stress however, I reverted to programming and reached where my service pistol OUGHT TO BE.
Replaying this event in my mind later, I became convinced that I would have reacted the same way in a real encounter. From then on, when I attended the NTI I always took with me a snubby belt holster I could put on my belt at 4 o'clock prior to entering The Village. I never had that problem again and was never "killed" again in The Village over several subsequent years .
Prior to this experience I had already been a strong proponent of carrying your gear in the same place and carrying the same type of gear religiously . For instance if someone carried a semiautomatic service pistol but wanted something smaller for off-duty, I strongly urged them to get a smaller gun that operated exactly the same way as their duty gun. Wearing the same basic type of gun and wearing it in the same place would make problems like the one I described above far less likely. My experience at the NTI just deeply reinforced that notion .
I allow AIWB carry in my live fire classes specifically because I don't want people using some other type of gear if AIWB is what they really carry.
I am not a proponent of AIWB carry , not because of safety issues, but because no one that I know carries that way ALL OF THE TIME. I can, in fact, carry a gun at 4 o'clock on my belt whether it is my full-size pistol IWB, or snubby IWB, or hunting pistol OWB. By changing outer garments I can adapt to different concealment requirements, but my pistol is always in the same place and the draw stroke will essentially be the same. The experience I described above and other observations over four decades of training people lead me to be concerned that someone who does all his range work from AIWB but then has his gun at 4 o'clock because he's not dressed in a manner that allows an un-tucked shirt will reach first where he thinks the gun ought to be and then reaches for 4 o'clock . That delay in the presentation could be a serious issue. YMMV.
To me the whole purpose of repetitive practice both in dry fire and live fire on the range is to program a desired response and make it an automatic response to certain stimuli. I think it would be a lot easier to automate one response than to automate two separate responses to the same set of stimuli. I have been in several hairy situations in real life in which my gun appeared in hand with absolutely no conscious decision to produce it. I believe this was a product of always wearing the gun in the same place and doing ALL presentation practice, dry and live, from that consistent location. I don't dictate carry position in class, as it's your butt at risk, not mine.
Thanks much for your insight, Tom.
I have been doing some experiments tonight, but will post my thoughts in Origami's thread on the holster position.
I am not a proponent of AIWB carry , not because of safety issues, but because no one that I know carries that way ALL OF THE TIME.
Bob Shimuzu - style thought balloon. I'm going to go think about that for a while. There may be a holster sale in the near future.
Bob Shimuzu - style thought balloon. I'm going to go think about that for a while. There may be a holster sale in the near future.
If your reason for the holster sale is being concerned about the difference between drawing appendix versus on the hip, I would do some experimenting first. This is a post I put in Gabe's thread on this topic. Short answer is I would be a LOT more concerned about differences in my cover garment than the difference between appendix and on the hip. That is not for all different holster positions, like Tom G's example of IWB versus pocket carry.
YVK and I were discussing this tonight, and he said something that caused me to start experimenting. In other words, leave the theoretical, and start drawing the pistol from appendix and 3 o'clock.
As it turns out, I come into the appendix position with my strong hand from my hip. Essentially there is no difference with my strong hand whether appendix or hip, as I start from the hip for both draws. What makes an enormous difference is the cover garment. If it is a closed front garment, I use my support hand to clear the garment. If it is an open front garment, I use my strong hand.
My take away is the type garment and which hand is used to clear the garment is more important than the appendix or hip holster position. As long as I wear a closed front concealment garment, there is no meaningful difference between appendix and hip for me. Open front, completely different draw. My practice has been to almost exclusively use close front garments for concealment, and after this exercise I plan to continue that choice.
If your reason for the holster sale is being concerned about the difference between drawing appendix versus on the hip, I would do some experimenting first. This is a post I put in Gabe's thread on this topic. Short answer is I would be a LOT more concerned about differences in my cover garment than the difference between appendix and on the hip. That is not for all different holster positions, like Tom G's example of IWB versus pocket carry.
YVK and I were discussing this tonight, and he said something that caused me to start experimenting. In other words, leave the theoretical, and start drawing the pistol from appendix and 3 o'clock.
As it turns out, I come into the appendix position with my strong hand from my hip. Essentially there is no difference with my strong hand whether appendix or hip, as I start from the hip for both draws. What makes an enormous difference is the cover garment. If it is a closed front garment, I use my support hand to clear the garment. If it is an open front garment, I use my strong hand.
My take away is the type garment and which hand is used to clear the garment is more important than the appendix or hip holster position. As long as I wear a closed front concealment garment, there is no meaningful difference between appendix and hip for me. Open front, completely different draw. My practice has been to almost exclusively use close front garments for concealment, and after this exercise I plan to continue that choice.
I think that topic is vastly underestimated if bandwidth directed to it is any indication.
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