PDA

View Full Version : How Bad Guys Get Guns.



GardoneVT
12-01-2014, 02:10 PM
I understand your point of view; but around here, at least, the great majority of stolen firearms are acquired from UNLOCKED vehicles; those acquired from residential burglaries are a distant second.
I say that not to justify my choice (because I truly do not care what anyone else may think about my choices), but merely to illustrate that criminals who really want a gun usually don't have much trouble finding one.
For instance, there was a crew in this area who specialized in getting gun safes out of dwellings (alarmed or otherwise) in a hurry, so they could work on getting them open at their leisure back at the hide-out, or wherever. How they did it was truly ingenius (and I won't repeat it here, so as not to give anyone any ideas). IOW, sometimes the best security plans simply aren't enough.
.
.

This question was inspired by the above post-since going to Joes Gun and Pawn isnt an option, how do bad guys get guns?

Do they do their "shopping" in the trunk of someone's Cadillac, or is theft the typical acquisition method?

joshs
12-01-2014, 02:19 PM
This is a good starting point, but it is a bit dated now: http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=940

KeeFus
12-01-2014, 02:27 PM
This question was inspired by the above post-since going to Joes Gun and Pawn isnt an option, how do bad guys get guns?

Do they do their "shopping" in the trunk of someone's Cadillac, or is theft the typical acquisition method?

We have recently had a group (read: gang) going through neighborhoods in several counties looking for unlocked vehicles. This group actually found an unlocked car with a real laying on the front seat unsecured Glock 36. They left several other items like a GPS and Ipod but the money and the G-lock were gone. Luckily the guy had the box it came in so I could get the serial number and enter it in NCIC. No telling if or when it will show back up. There is also no telling how many other weapons were stolen and the owners were either too ashamed to admit they were that stupid to leave the gun in an unlocked car or they have yet to realize its gone...and have not reported it. On a related note, there is also no telling how many people fail to write down and secure their serial numbers on items...especially weapons. You should see the looks I get when someone says "I will know it when I see it..." and I reply "Really? How many other pistols/rifles/shotguns/whatever did [insert manufacturer here] make that looked just like yours?"

Chuck Haggard
12-01-2014, 06:07 PM
Around here unsecured guns in homes and cars is a big contributor.

Guys that leave "car guns" laying around are quite simply assholes IMHO.

Lon
12-01-2014, 07:25 PM
Vehicles in driveways or on the street and daytime burglaries. Hardly any serial numbers documented.

psalms144.1
12-01-2014, 09:53 PM
Around here unsecured guns in homes and cars is a big contributor.

Guys that leave "car guns" laying around are quite simply assholes IMHO.I continue to be FASCINATED by the folks who think that it's a good idea to leave a loaded firearm unsecured in a vehicle (locked or otherwise). I get it, you have a right to expect your property will be safe in your vehicle, but, a little bit of common sense. People are VERY eager to drop 5-600 on a gun to roll around in the car, but won't pay to have a car-vault installed to hold same?

Sort of like buying a $900 HK and carrying it in a Fobus or no-name nylon "universal" holster...

John Hearne
12-01-2014, 10:03 PM
There's some good academic research on this topic. As far as guns used in crimes, once a gun gets in criminal hands, it is probably used a lot. Borrowing from friends or family is a huge source of crime guns as is illegal trade in guns. The FBI research shows that gangs have two sources of income - drug sales and gun sales. They will sell and trade the same guns among a group of people. Even guns used in murders which might be show guilt aren't destroyed but are traded or sold. If I had to guess a very small number of guns are used to commit most of the gun related crime.

Lon
12-01-2014, 10:10 PM
There's some good academic research on this topic. As far as guns used in crimes, once a gun gets in criminal hands, it is probably used a lot. Borrowing from friends or family is a huge source of crime guns as is illegal trade in guns. The FBI research shows that gangs have two sources of income - drug sales and gun sales. They will sell and trade the same guns among a group of people. Even guns used in murders which might be show guilt aren't destroyed but are traded or sold. If I had to guess a very small number of guns are used to commit most of the gun related crime.

I was surprised how expensive hi points are in the criminal element.

GardoneVT
12-01-2014, 10:16 PM
I continue to be FASCINATED by the folks who think that it's a good idea to leave a loaded firearm unsecured in a vehicle (locked or otherwise). I get it, you have a right to expect your property will be safe in your vehicle, but, a little bit of common sense. People are VERY eager to drop 5-600 on a gun to roll around in the car, but won't pay to have a car-vault installed to hold same?

Sort of like buying a $900 HK and carrying it in a Fobus or no-name nylon "universal" holster...
I grew up in Chicago. A car is an unsecured pile of money left on the street.

ssb
12-02-2014, 12:46 AM
There's some good academic research on this topic. As far as guns used in crimes, once a gun gets in criminal hands, it is probably used a lot. Borrowing from friends or family is a huge source of crime guns as is illegal trade in guns. The FBI research shows that gangs have two sources of income - drug sales and gun sales. They will sell and trade the same guns among a group of people. Even guns used in murders which might be show guilt aren't destroyed but are traded or sold. If I had to guess a very small number of guns are used to commit most of the gun related crime.

In some Memphis neighborhoods, it isn't uncommon to be able to hold onto a community gun for a while if a person feels they need it -- pay your money, get your Jennings, and give it back when you're done. On a similar note, I think it was Mr. Haggard who described finding a place which had several firearms "packages" -- to include the firearm, ammunition, spare mags, and in some cases load bearing equipment and armor -- for rent. That's a sobering anecdote.

Chuck Haggard
12-02-2014, 03:03 AM
I wasn't the one that saw the thug retail gun and gear packages, but locally we have seen pool guns and rentals, along with it being common for the bad guys to rent or borrow cars to go "do dirt".

We had a string of shootings that were tracked down as being done by a group of bangers passing around an AR pistol and an AK with the buttstock sawed off.

We have noted that the old "throw it in the river" thing doesn't happen as much anymore, even with a body on the gun they will sell or trade it off.

I hear people leaving guns in cars often saying "Well, I should be able to leave a gun in my car....". Umm, yeah, if life were perfect then I should be able to live at peace in a warm climate and get paid to test beer samples, and no one would need guns for anything but "sporting purposes", but life is not perfect.
My retort tends to be "What do you do when you come back to your car and interrupt Mr Car Burglar while he is in your car and he just found your gat"

Suvorov
12-02-2014, 03:18 AM
Between these stories and the daily YouTube derp, I really wish us gun owners wouldn't provide the bad guys (both proverbial bad guys and the anti's) with so much ammunition...

I'm the last guy who would call for government mandated secure storage and records and government mandated training, but I sure wish we as a collective would take it upon ourselves and police our own.

Chuck Haggard
12-02-2014, 03:22 AM
I think it's a responsible gun owner thing.

We pretty much agree around here that training is important, but that .gov mandating what training is a bad idea.

Every gun owner should eventually, at a minimum, be able to know the four universal gun safety rules, and to apply them in real life by not doing things like randomly pointing guns at other people. I think responsible storage falls into the realm.

Beat Trash
12-02-2014, 11:34 AM
We've seen the "Rental Gun" thing here also.

Ak's and SKS's were the "go to Rental guns" for a bit.

We also see a ton of Hi-Point pistols. These are being bought from "legit" sources and resold on the thug market.

We are also not seeing guns being tossed after being used. Too much value in them to just toss them.

I agree with what Chuck has been posting about being a responsible gun owner. This is my first thought when I see topics on the internet discussing "Trunk Guns". Especially when these topics eventually factor in cheaper guns, to mitigate finical loss should the gun be stolen from the car. The most effective way to mitigate finical loss of a "Trunk Gun" is to not leave a gun in the unattended car over night!

nwhpfan
12-02-2014, 12:09 PM
Do they do their "shopping" in the trunk of someone's Cadillac, or is theft the typical acquisition method?

Maroon Ford Taurus actually...no joke. About 6 years ago I rolled up on a couple gangsters doing some target practice in a quarry out in the woods. They had a stolen Sigma from Portland that was a month or two old and a stolen Colt Sporter from Lancaster, CA from the late 80's. The thug, illegally in the country, told me he just likes to shoot like everyone else but couldn't "legally" buy a firearm at a gun store because of his illegal status. This guy spoke perfect English by the way and said he had been in the states since his mid-teens. He was in his late 20's at this time. He tells me he bought the guns from a guy (doesn't remember his name) who shoulder tapped him at a flea market with a, "hey, want to buy some guns..." He does, so he walks over to the guys Maroon Ford Taurus where he buys the Sigma and Colt. He admits he figured the Colt was probably stolen because the guy let it go for a couple hundred bucks but he wanted around two hundred for the Sigma which he said was too close to retail to be hot, so the thought it was legit.

So I arrest the guy for possession of the stolen firearms and the DA declines to prosecute...because in the DA's mind the suspect’s statements of the value of the firearm and believing it might be OK would be hard to overcome... And the Colt, the original owner/victim was dead or something...

So about 2 years later I get a call from the property room asking me what to do with the Colt, who to return it too, etc. (The Sigma was returned to the rightful owner). So I check the current status of the person I took it from..... in prison for murder. Two months after I arrested him he walks up on the porch of a gang rival and shoots him dead.

So, there you go...

Tamara
12-02-2014, 02:45 PM
...and then there are the old-fashioned straw purchasers.

We had this dude that purchased a bunch of guns at a former employer of mine. I mean, if it was cool-looking or exotic, he was into it. Rifles, shotguns, handguns; the tacticooler, the better. He was on a three or four gun a month clip; even bought a couple NFA items, including a MAC.

When the Feds showed up we found out that he'd been trading them, via intermediaries, for dope from south of the border. Including the NFA stuff. He didn't seem stupid. :confused:

When I moved up to Indy back in '08, I noticed that some of the shops in town that were in or near rough neighborhoods had signs prohibiting cell phones, which I thought was strange. It turns out that the reason was to attempt to prevent Ice Dog and Ray-Ray from coming in and using their phones to text pictures of the gats they wanted to their babymommas who would come in later and, glancing nervously from the screen of their phone to the showcase, tell the salesman "I want... that one?"

TR675
12-02-2014, 03:01 PM
I have seen felons gun shopping at gun shows.

DI1
12-02-2014, 04:33 PM
In my former career, I bought a lot of stolen guns from bad guys. The easiest way many of them originally got those guns was by following people who had gun stickers on their cars, either breaking into the cars or their homes to look for guns.
I do not understand why people advertise that they own firearms or have the "Blue Line" stickers on their cars.

Dr. No
12-02-2014, 08:01 PM
Lots from baby mama's. "I got my name on the paperwork, it's mine" .... she's also the registered owner of the car, and the only one on the lease. He does all the dirt, she has all the tools.

psalms144.1
12-02-2014, 09:27 PM
Every gun owner should eventually, at a minimum, be able to know the four universal gun safety rules, and to apply them in real life by not doing things like randomly pointing guns at other people.Heck, I wish every AGENT in my agency knew the four universal safety rules - but unfortunately I haven't been able to pound them into some of those especially thick skulls...

shane45
12-04-2014, 09:08 AM
Not countering anyone else's experience, just paraphrasing an interview I heard on the radio. Whenever I hear antigun talk, I tune in just to gain a better understanding of the enemies mentality. Anyway a Chicago DA was on. She seemed in the anti gun camp. Others were talking about straw purchases and gunshow loopholes. She bluntly belted out that it was a red herring. She stated that in almost all the gun related crimes her office was prosecuting, the guns were stolen. She particularly attacked the "gunshow loophole" saying it was a farcical witch hunt compared to stolen guns.

A side story, I received a call from an anti gun organization one time about 10 years ago. So I took the opportunity to engage the opposition. They were trying to raise money to pay for some action to "get guns off the street". I told them if they wanted to do something useful, they should help subsidize gun safes for people that don't have one to keep thefts and home accidents down. The logic befuddled the person on the other end of the phone so they hung up :D

nwhpfan
12-04-2014, 09:32 AM
So I'm going to throw this out too, and this may be a surprise, but in my area, most burglars/car clouters will avoid stealing a firearm. Guns can be hard to get rid of and if caught, the consequences are high.

Most criminals doing burglary and breaking into cars are drug addicted. What money they get, they use for drugs. Street criminals don't even like pawn shops in my area because they are so regulated; property tracked etc. Most burglars/car clouters steal change, cash, etc. because it easy to liquidate. Non serial numbered items and stuff easy to get rid of are what is stolen most. Most common items stolen in my area are probably cash/change, tools, I-pods (rarely somebody knows their sn#), checks/ID. A common street junky will have a hard time getting rid of a gun because he can't take it to a pawn shop (FFL), others on the street don't have enough money or don't want it because they only care about getting high, etc.

Drug dealers will take guns as cash for drugs but believe it or not, drug dealers aren't as dumb as one would think. Or at least they have a street sense.... Street level dealers in my area have a high turnover rate. No, they aren’t killed, but they are quickly deemed not trustable, or they get caught, and somebody takes their place. The smart ones don't want the guns some junky ripped from a car or burglar because that's high risk for them. If they take a gun their preference is from that new junky freshly graduated from oxy, who is getting rid of their own stuff first; their parents second. Pawn shops prefer this too...they don't like giving stuff back.

Gunshop loophole, no such thing in my state. Parking lot, in the show, all sales go through FFL.

Where I live private party sales, no FFL required is still legal. I don't see criminals shopping here; most sellers ask for ID, bill of sale, etc. and the price is a little higher than what they could have elsewhere.

So what is the common method that I see: they bought it themselves or owned it lawfully, they took it from their parents/friend, etc, they traded for it, they stole it.

But I have encountered straw purchases and thefts specifically targeting guns too.

Tamara
12-04-2014, 09:35 AM
She bluntly belted out that it was a red herring. She stated that in almost all the gun related crimes her office was prosecuting, the guns were stolen. She particularly attacked the "gunshow loophole" saying it was a farcical witch hunt compared to stolen guns.

Statistically, she's correct. Stolen guns outnumber bogusly purchased ones by an order of magnitude, IME.

Chuck Haggard
12-04-2014, 09:38 AM
Statistically, she's correct. Stolen guns outnumber bogusly purchased ones by an order of magnitude, IME.

^This^

joshs
12-04-2014, 10:09 AM
Statistically, she's correct. Stolen guns outnumber bogusly purchased ones by an order of magnitude, IME.

Sort of, here's the most recent data I know of:

Source of firearms possessed by state prison inmates at time of offense, 1997 and 2004

Percent of state prison inmates

Source of firearm 1997 2004

Total 100% 100%

Purchased or traded from— 14.0% 11.3%
Retail store 8.2 7.3
Pawnshop 4.0 2.6
Flea market 1.0 0.6
Gun show 0.8 0.8

Family or friend 40.1% 37.4%
Purchased or traded 12.6 12.2
Rented or borrowed 18.9 14.1
Other 8.5 11.1

Street/illegal source 37.3% 40.0%
Theft or burglary 9.1 7.5
Drug dealer/off street 20.3 25.2
Fence/black market 8.0 7.4
Other 8.7% 11.2%

Source: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf

Totem Polar
12-04-2014, 11:53 AM
^^^please correct me if I'm wrong; I believe that this data comes from surveys of inmates. Not that I am automatically assuming that self-reporting from that source is always wrong, but I could see a false bias towards "family and friends" and "retail", for example, over "theft or burglary" when it comes to known criminals commenting on where they get their gats. Again, I could be wrong, but I'd want to know more about the study, given the way I read their methodology.

Tamara
12-04-2014, 12:13 PM
Sort of, here's the most recent data I know of:

Source of firearms possessed by state prison inmates at time of offense, 1997 and 2004

Percent of state prison inmates

Source of firearm 1997 2004

Total 100% 100%

Purchased or traded from— 14.0% 11.3%
Retail store 8.2 7.3
Pawnshop 4.0 2.6
Flea market 1.0 0.6
Gun show 0.8 0.8

Family or friend 40.1% 37.4%
Purchased or traded 12.6 12.2
Rented or borrowed 18.9 14.1
Other 8.5 11.1

Street/illegal source 37.3% 40.0%
Theft or burglary 9.1 7.5
Drug dealer/off street 20.3 25.2
Fence/black market 8.0 7.4
Other 8.7% 11.2%

Source: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf
Assuming they used sodium pentathol to get correct answers, if Ice Dog borrowed Ray-Ray's stolen gat, it would still go in column B rather than C, no?

Suvorov
12-04-2014, 02:13 PM
So all of this begs the question I have been asking myself for a while now - why hasn't the NRA or other gun rights organizations taken the lead in a visible way to encourage gun owners to properly safeguard their firearms and invest in security? I'm not talking "never store your gun loaded" kind of BS, but simply advocate owning safes and not leaving guns unattended and unsecured. Obviously every time some kid gets a hold of his parents unsecured gun and harms himself or others is is just another bullet the antis will gladly use against us and if we could slowly begin to slow the pipeline of stolen guns, how would it hurt us? Is it because they don't want to publicly admit that firearms can be dangerous in the wrong hands and that an add campaign would cause more panic than good?

Kind of like the "Don't Lie for the Other Guy" campaign against straw purchases. How about a "Don't give them the ammunition they desire - secure your firearms " poster which has a photo of some stereotypical (white) criminal and a photo of Chucky Schumer smiling?

45dotACP
12-04-2014, 06:34 PM
So all of this begs the question I have been asking myself for a while now - why hasn't the NRA or other gun rights organizations taken the lead in a visible way to encourage gun owners to properly safeguard their firearms and invest in security? I'm not talking "never store your gun loaded" kind of BS, but simply advocate owning safes and not leaving guns unattended and unsecured. Obviously every time some kid gets a hold of his parents unsecured gun and harms himself or others is is just another bullet the antis will gladly use against us and if we could slowly begin to slow the pipeline of stolen guns, how would it hurt us? Is it because they don't want to publicly admit that firearms can be dangerous in the wrong hands and that an add campaign would cause more panic than good?

Kind of like the "Don't Lie for the Other Guy" campaign against straw purchases. How about a "Don't give them the ammunition they desire - secure your firearms " poster which has a photo of some stereotypical (white) criminal and a photo of Chucky Schumer smiling?

I daresy it would be due to the fact that in spite of the radical partisanship they frequently stand accused for, the NRA would gladly work with Chuck Schumer...assuming he were able to bring about any legislation that wasn't a laughable horse turd and called it "compromise"

But I'd like to see a "With rights comes responsibility" campaign advocating for training, safes, and incentives for the aforementioned behaviors...not just a bunch of Rob Pincus DVD's that are a pain in the rear to send back.

GardoneVT
12-04-2014, 07:19 PM
So all of this begs the question I have been asking myself for a while now - why hasn't the NRA or other gun rights organizations taken the lead in a visible way to encourage gun owners to properly safeguard their firearms and invest in security? I'm not talking "never store your gun loaded" kind of BS, but simply advocate owning safes and not leaving guns unattended and unsecured. Obviously every time some kid gets a hold of his parents unsecured gun and harms himself or others is is just another bullet the antis will gladly use against us and if we could slowly begin to slow the pipeline of stolen guns, how would it hurt us? Is it because they don't want to publicly admit that firearms can be dangerous in the wrong hands and that an add campaign would cause more panic than good?

Kind of like the "Don't Lie for the Other Guy" campaign against straw purchases. How about a "Don't give them the ammunition they desire - secure your firearms " poster which has a photo of some stereotypical (white) criminal and a photo of Chucky Schumer smiling?

Trouble is, the devils in the details.

Some gun owners don't have the option for a properly secured, on site safe- as a proper safe will cost thousands (plural) of dollars at minimum, and require professional installation into either the foundation or some permanent portion of the living area. Renters have to seek alternative arrangements, while Cleetus will balk at the cost and buy the cheapest tin box he can-thus only consolidating his collection for easy theft.

It also sets us up for lasting problems with the antis.In many European nations, one can't even own a gun without a government approved safe-and the Cuomo-ites of America will use the security campaign as a lever of doom to bring those odius laws here.

If even the radical, baby killing NRA advocates locking up guns in four figure vaults, why NOT make it Federal/State law to own one as a condition of transfer at an FFL?

No receipt from Acme Gun Safe Co. (In triplicate, please.), no gun.

TGS
12-04-2014, 07:44 PM
Trouble is, the devils in the details.

Some gun owners don't have the option for a properly secured, on site safe- as a proper safe will cost thousands (plural) of dollars at minimum, and require professional installation into either the foundation or some permanent portion of the living area. Renters have to seek alternative arrangements, while Cleetus will balk at the cost and buy the cheapest tin box he can-thus only consolidating his collection for easy theft.


Why does it have to be a multi-thousand dollar safe with installation as you described?

A Stack-On gun cabinet screwed into studs/the floor will deter most criminals. As noted in the related thread, most of the time they want to be in and out quickly. Yes you can hammer through or take a pocket torch to a $150 gun cabinet, but it's more effort/time than most are willing to spend.

My guess is that if they are willing, then you're probably being targeted for a specific reason by a professional crew....in which case they're the type who has given themselves the time and skills to break into a $4k gun safe as well, which isn't terribly hard for someone with tools.

GardoneVT
12-04-2014, 07:55 PM
Why does it have to be a multi-thousand dollar safe with installation as you described?

A Stack-On gun cabinet screwed into studs/the floor will deter most criminals. As noted in the related thread, most of the time they want to be in and out quickly. Yes you can hammer through or take a pocket torch to a $150 gun cabinet, but it's more effort/time than most are willing to spend.

My guess is that if they are willing, then you're probably being targeted for a specific reason by a professional crew....in which case they're the type who has given themselves the time and skills to break into a $4k gun safe as well, which isn't terribly hard for someone with tools.

Not to be snide, but what facts does your post rest on?

I don't interact with the criminal community, so I based my post on the premise that the typical criminal possesses the know how to get into most inexpensive "security containers". Given that there's piles of YouTube videos demonstrating how to break into one-and even an example showing a three year old getting into smaller " safes"- plus multiple admittedly anecdotal forum posts across the internet of comprmised safes, that supposition has some merit.

Plus, well, it's an unwise thing to underestimate your opposition. If we are going to mandate gun owners enact security measures at their own expense, we should ensure its effective security.

Joe in PNG
12-04-2014, 08:35 PM
A cheap wallyworld tin box is far better than hoping someone doesn't look in the bedside drawer or back safe.

TGS
12-04-2014, 08:40 PM
Not to be snide, but what facts does your post rest on?

I don't interact with the criminal community, so I based my post on the premise that the typical criminal possesses the know how to get into most inexpensive "security containers". Given that there's piles of YouTube videos demonstrating how to break into one-and even an example showing a three year old getting into smaller " safes"- plus multiple admittedly anecdotal forum posts across the internet of comprmised safes, that supposition has some merit.

Plus, well, it's an unwise thing to underestimate your opposition. If we are going to mandate gun owners enact security measures at their own expense, we should ensure its effective security.

1) Experience with my own burglary and comments by the investigating officer. They didn't even bother to check the upstairs, as that added time. The investigating officer said that crews in my area are limiting themselves to 2 minutes after entry. Unless I'm specifically being targeted like your acquaintance (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1349-Safes-Vaults-and-Other-Security-Measures&p=165127&viewfull=1#post165127), 2 minutes isn't enough time to find my cabinet and break into it, especially considering there are juicy unsecured items before they'll find it.....like the TV, computer, printer, china, ect.

2) I'm having trouble finding the thread, but it's an older discussion we had on here featuring a video presentation from a professional safe cracker/locksmith convention and the illusion of safety provided by average safes.

So, reasoning would suggest that if they're willing to take the time and tools to target your guns/valuables which they know are locked up, then it really doesn't matter if you've got a gun cabinet or an actual safe. You're only buying time, which doesn't really matter since if they're taking the time to target your safe or completely clean out your home, they've provided themselves a time window by scoping out your daily routine and defeating your alarm.

Hey, when I have the money I still want to buy an AMSEC. It will provide protection against a guy with a crowbar or pocket torch, but not much else. And if someone is breaking into a house to specifically get into your safe, then they're probably bringing tools to get the job done.

So, that's how I come to the conclusion that a gun cabinet is going to deter most burglars, who are essentially doing a "smash and grab" on unsecured items within a 2 minute window.

idahojess
12-04-2014, 11:20 PM
So all of this begs the question I have been asking myself for a while now - why hasn't the NRA or other gun rights organizations taken the lead in a visible way to encourage gun owners to properly safeguard their firearms and invest in security?

I think the NSSF has done a pretty good job of trying to educate people about safes and security.

http://www.nssfblog.com/nssfs-hunt-s-a-f-e-campaign-marks-another-year-of-partnerships-and-prevention/

I do think any safe is better than no safe. If nothing else, it will slow somebody down. I don't have a great safe, but it's going to be a lot harder for someone to sneak out with it from my house than a handgun or a single rifle. Seems like most of the reports I read of stolen firearms involve guns in unlocked cabinets, guns in nightstands, guns in cars (sometimes unlocked).
Also, simple measures such as being careful when loading and unloading your car going to and from the range make sense.

GardoneVT
12-05-2014, 12:24 AM
1) Experience with my own burglary and comments by the investigating officer. They didn't even bother to check the upstairs, as that added time. The investigating officer said that crews in my area are limiting themselves to 2 minutes after entry. Unless I'm specifically being targeted like your acquaintance (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1349-Safes-Vaults-and-Other-Security-Measures&p=165127&viewfull=1#post165127), 2 minutes isn't enough time to find my cabinet and break into it, especially considering there are juicy unsecured items before they'll find it.....like the TV, computer, printer, china, ect.

2) I'm having trouble finding the thread, but it's an older discussion we had on here featuring a video presentation from a professional safe cracker/locksmith convention and the illusion of safety provided by average safes.

So, reasoning would suggest that if they're willing to take the time and tools to target your guns/valuables which they know are locked up, then it really doesn't matter if you've got a gun cabinet or an actual safe. You're only buying time, which doesn't really matter since if they're taking the time to target your safe or completely clean out your home, they've provided themselves a time window by scoping out your daily routine and defeating your alarm.

Hey, when I have the money I still want to buy an AMSEC. It will provide protection against a guy with a crowbar or pocket torch, but not much else. And if someone is breaking into a house to specifically get into your safe, then they're probably bringing tools to get the job done.

So, that's how I come to the conclusion that a gun cabinet is going to deter most burglars, who are essentially doing a "smash and grab" on unsecured items within a 2 minute window.


Noted.

Suvorov
12-05-2014, 01:26 AM
I think the NSSF has done a pretty good job of trying to educate people about safes and security.

http://www.nssfblog.com/nssfs-hunt-s-a-f-e-campaign-marks-another-year-of-partnerships-and-prevention/

I do think any safe is better than no safe. If nothing else, it will slow somebody down. I don't have a great safe, but it's going to be a lot harder for someone to sneak out with it from my house than a handgun or a single rifle. Seems like most of the reports I read of stolen firearms involve guns in unlocked cabinets, guns in nightstands, guns in cars (sometimes unlocked).
Also, simple measures such as being careful when loading and unloading your car going to and from the range make sense.

Thanks. I'm just kind of thinking out loud that this is something that we should go on the offensive with?


Not to be snide, but what facts does your post rest on?

I don't interact with the criminal community, so I based my post on the premise that the typical criminal possesses the know how to get into most inexpensive "security containers". Given that there's piles of YouTube videos demonstrating how to break into one-and even an example showing a three year old getting into smaller " safes"- plus multiple admittedly anecdotal forum posts across the internet of comprmised safes, that supposition has some merit.

Plus, well, it's an unwise thing to underestimate your opposition. If we are going to mandate gun owners enact security measures at their own expense, we should ensure its effective security.

I respectfully disagree with GardoneVT. I have spent time in the dorms (back in Wyoming in the early 1990s - it wasn't exactly allowed, but nobody cared), the Bachelor Officer Quarters, and a handful of apartments with guns and kept them reasonably secure the whole time. I started with a Army footlocker and padlock, moved to a cheapo Homak 6 gun cabinet in the apartments and while spending time in the Q resorted to a pelican case double pad locked and chained to the bed frame. Now I'm up to bigger and better things but in every option I at least was able to make it a little harder for a thief to make off with my stuff. Sure, a determined thief will bring bolt cutters or even more, but your average tweaker looking for his next fix is less likely to try to carry your bed down the street just to get the goodies inside the case attached. I think TGS pretty much nails the rest.

Plus I WANT TO BE CLEAR, that I'm not advocating any sort of law that mandates gun owners store their firearms in a particular way. We got it here in some Kalifornia towns and it is a mess, and we all know how it works in Europe down under. I'm just saying that we as a community should try to find a way to push this side of gun ownership better. If the cool guys can get some dood to spend $400 on a new rail for his AR that is 2 oz lighter or he can add rails to without removing, then why can't we get them to spend $400 on a metal box that will make the local turd's job just a little harder?

John Hearne
12-05-2014, 09:01 AM
If the anti's really cared, and weren't promoting their moral superiority, they be arguing for a tax credit for safe purchases.

Drang
12-05-2014, 08:19 PM
If the anti's really cared, and weren't promoting their moral superiority, they be arguing for a tax credit for safe purchases.
FWIW, Washington State does not charge sale tax on (full-size) gun safes.

jnc36rcpd
12-06-2014, 02:09 AM
That's actually impressive on Washington State's part , Drang. That policy encourages purchase of an appropriate safety device.

That said, I agree that a cheap gun safe/storage unit is better than nothing at all. If a burglar is targeting your guns, a heavy-duty safe will take longer to enter than a simpler system. If all you have is a gun box, the bad guy may likely carry the whole box out than try to break in on scene. On the other hand, as stated above, most burglars are opportunists, Many will not opt to carry a gun box down the street in hopes of opening it later.

dbateman
12-06-2014, 05:43 AM
How bad guys get guns ?

In Au they just import them, or steal them off licenced owners due to the fact that
The registry was kept on an unsecure server and could be acsessed by all and sundry.

Tamara
12-06-2014, 10:24 AM
How bad guys get guns ?

In Au they just import them, or steal them off licenced owners due to the fact that
The registry was kept on an unsecure server and could be acsessed by all and sundry.

And doesn't Oz already have mandatory gun safe laws of the sort that have been bandied about upthread?

idahojess
12-06-2014, 01:58 PM
To be clear, my post wasn't advocating mandatory gun safe laws. I agree with Suvurov's point about education and personal responsibility, just like the four firearm safety rules.

dbateman
12-06-2014, 08:00 PM
And doesn't Oz already have mandatory gun safe laws of the sort that have been bandied about upthread?

Yes Au has manditory safe keeping laws, safes are a good idea but I don't agree with it being a legal requirement.

Rich
12-10-2014, 08:56 AM
I'm not in LE. I would think the most BG would get weapons buy dealing drugs. guns for crack

Glenn E. Meyer
12-10-2014, 08:34 PM
I read somewhere that Australia is seeing homemade SMGs. For the question, the ASC meeting had a presentation that indicated that crime guns directly from FFLs is rare. There is a small percent of FFLs (2%) that had a high rate of direct to crime guns. Guns sold back to FFLs usually didn't make it to crime (for such a gun used in crime, the average time was 12 years). If a gun was sold to a second private party, the time for the sold gun to make it into a crime (if it was in a crime) was 5 years. It was stated that actually getting real reports about where criminals got their guns should be taken with a grain of salt.

Female straw purchases was a distinct group, though in FFL sales that went quickly to crime.

Jim Watson
12-10-2014, 10:23 PM
I had unsecured guns stolen by a burglar much as described in #34 - 1.
Fortunately, the punk had also stolen a car and when noticed and pursued, he wrecked it before he could fence my guns.
Good for me, tough on the car owner.

SpencerDS
12-11-2014, 10:17 AM
not just a bunch of Rob Pincus DVD's that are a pain in the rear to send back.

Why would you waste your time sending them back, you are not obligated to do so, or pay for them. It's their choice to send you stuff, and federal law says if they send it to you by their error or choice it is yours. I just throw them in a pile, or in the trash.

TR675
12-11-2014, 05:24 PM
I read somewhere that Australia is seeing homemade SMGs.

Yup. (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/11/19/home-built-m11-submachine-guns-seized-australia/)

Lon
12-11-2014, 06:18 PM
We recently returned a pistol to its owner (last week). This week it was stolen out of his unlocked car. It was still in the police evidence box. At least we know the serial number to enter into NCIC since the owner didn't have it anywhere.

KeeFus
12-11-2014, 06:19 PM
We recently returned a pistol to its owner (last week). This week it was stolen out of his unlocked car. It was still in the police evidence box. At least we know the serial number to enter into NCIC since the owner didn't have it anywhere.

Why am I not surprised?

dbateman
12-14-2014, 05:09 AM
I read somewhere that Australia is seeing homemade SMGs.

Yes that is true, they are getting more and more sophisticated.
Whilst I have no doubt there there would be some very high quality firearms being made in Au off the books the ones I have seen in the news ect are pretty crude Sten type things. As well as pen gun type things that people knock up, then we still have the old zip guns and what not.


I can tell you in the state I live in we had an gun amnesty, which is a period of time when you can surrender or register a firearm with out being prosecuted. This amnesty was declared the last amnesty QLD will have and if you don't surrender your guns it is for criminal purposes.

That last bit is pretty important as they have just implemented mandatory sentencing for possession of firearms, 18 months for an AR SKS/SKK or an M1/M2 ect.

In that amnesty there were 19000 guns surrendered 14000 of them were registered, there are millions of undocumented guns in this country.

Glenn E. Meyer
12-14-2014, 12:14 PM
I remember seeing some report that only about 20% of the known imports of SKS rifles to Australia were turned in. Similar to the registratio of ARs in CA.