Travis Haley says "don't buy the MagPul DVDs"

[jetfire]

From the BookFace:

I've had a lot of people ask me about this: Be careful buying training DVDs that 7 yrs old. If you know how adaptive we are in our training programs then you get my point... If you don't then here: DO NOT BUY THESE. "yes this message is approved by Travis Haley."

This was posted regarding MagPul offering the entire "Art of the Firearm Collection" as an omnibus set for a hundred bucks. Down the FB thread Haley follows his initial post up with this:


Mostly because I created, produced and directed these. So I know the material very well. There is a lot that I would take back and add which we do now in our programs. The Panteao videos are a massive improvement as it pertains to material and even those are becoming older and need to be updated. So no it wont get you killed, but there is better material since then. http://haleystrategic.com/store/dvd.php

The cynic in me says that he's recommending the new stuff over the old stuff because he's not getting royalties off the MagPul DVDs. That being said, I've not seen the Panteo DVDs (because I won't buy anything that puts money in Fernando's pocket) but I have seen the Magpul DVDs. While I found some of the stuff in the Magpul DVDs kind of hokey, if a person actually internalizes the information and then practices it regularly, they'll have a better skill base than someone who just shows up at the range with no practice whatsoever. No, they won't be a GM, and yes their stance will be all kinds of messed up, but I sort of view them like I'd view taking the entire Gunsite battery of courses: it's better than not training.

[orionz06]

The cynic in you sounds more right than wrong here.

[jetfire]

The cynic in you sounds more right than wrong here.

He usually is.

[PPGMD]

Personally I never liked Panteo's format of some dude or dudette talking to the camera the entire time. For shooting training I think a class based video results in a better production as often, like in a real class, seeing a student doing something wrong provides more content than if they followed a script on it's own. As a trainers should be positive avoiding telling people what not to do, but since these are videos they need to cover fixing common mistakes.

[TCinVA]

The only training DVD I've ever found to be useful was Craig's PUC/MUC DVD. Admittedly I don't often purchase training DVDs.

I think they can be more useful on some topics than others.

Ditto the not doing business with panteo because the owner is a crook. I've often wondered if the folks appearing in those videos have been getting a fair deal from somebody who has notoriously shafted a bunch of people on previous business ventures.

Mr. Haley's claims of significant changes since putting out the Magpul DVDs (which I think a lot of people put down out of jealousy as much as anything else...look how many people who talked smack about those who have DVDs of their own now) might be perfectly honest. I've joked before after training with someone a few times over several years that I'd love to get the current version of him in a room with the guy from 4 years ago and the guy from 7 years ago and let them fight it all out.

The whole "don't buy" them thing...that strikes me as absurd. It's one thing to have changed your mind on some stuff and to have evolved, but if you were ever in the position Mr. Haley was in you shouldn't have been putting out downright bad information, right?

[TR675]

Those DVDs are polished, informative and well done. Watching them put me well ahead of the curve when it came time to get formally educated. I had the basics down and wasn't all asses and elbows.

There might be some out of date information and better choices available today but for a beginner they are hardly useless.

[Chance]

The cynic in me says that he's recommending the new stuff over the old stuff because he's not getting royalties off the Magpul DVDs.


Haley's been plenty successful creating his own brand, and I don't get the impression he's hurting for money. That being said, I don't know what kind of numbers the Magpul and Panteao videos are pulling down....

The Panteao videos that he's done have some good info in them, but don't have as much material as the Magpul videos. So far as I can tell, the material in the carbine videos has changed quite a bit (I'll never forget the amount of stuff he and Costa had on their ARs - they looked like Star Trek phaser rifles), but the material in the pistol videos is very similar.



Ditto the not doing business with panteo because the owner is a crook. I've often wondered if the folks appearing in those videos have been getting a fair deal from somebody who has notoriously shafted a bunch of people on previous business ventures.


Not at all familiar with Fernando, but if he's presently playing the shyster, he has a pretty impressive line-up of suckers: Paul Howe, Pat Rogers, Massad Ayoob, and others, have come back to make videos with him repeatedly.

[orionz06]

Haley's been plenty successful creating his own brand, and I don't get the impression he's hurting for money. That being said, I don't know what kind of numbers the Magpul and Panteao videos are pulling down....

The royalties now are likely peanuts. At the height of the Magpul craze... Who knows how much money he didn't make, could have made, or someone made instead of him.

[ToddG]

Not at all familiar with Fernando, but if he's presently playing the shyster, he has a pretty impressive line-up of suckers...

I have no idea what he's doing presently. I know he has a felony conviction for trying to screw some former employees -- including some close friends of mine -- out of quite a bit of money. I know more than one instructor who specifically opted not to do business with his video company because of this and other past unethical behavior. From the MidHudson News:

2809

As to why so many work with him, I doubt it's any single reason. I know at least one of the people you named was unaware of Coelho's past when he first signed up. I'm sure some didn't know and some didn't care.

To borrow a phrase from a friend, personally I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire and my kidney was about to burst. YMMV.

[JLM]

Thanks for the intel Todd. I have a Vague recollection about some stuff around Woolrich Elite and not getting product out or getting bad product out.

Out of that list I can think of one that "wouldn't care" ;)

[C45P312]

Dang, I didn't not know that about the Panteo guy. I wonder if he's repaid his debt. Shitty thing to do though.

[GardoneVT]

Dang, I didn't not know that about the Panteo guy. I wonder if he's repaid his debt. Shitty thing to do though.

On that subject- is it legal for him to be in business again after that? I know in finance, once someone's pled guilty to a crime related to ripping off clients/investors they're done like yesterday's Turkey.

[PPGMD]

On that subject- is it legal for him to be in business again after that? I know in finance, once someone's pled guilty to a crime related to ripping off clients/investors they're done like yesterday's Turkey.

I doubt there is any law preventing incorporation. But that might explain why he had to Indigogo his attempt to building a filming range, rather than just getting investors (beyond the fact it was a risky idea to begin with).

[ToddG]

I wonder if he's repaid his debt.

I believe he eventually did, yes ... with some prompting from government. However, I remember clearly when he was telling those unpaid employees he was broke and couldn't pay them back... at the same time he went online posting photos of his new expensive motorcycle. The guy is simply dishonorable, period, end of story.

[TGS]

I think it'd be a bit naive to assume that Haley is not a businessman.

This is how he feeds his family. What he's saying is probably a good business decision. I would not fault him for that, nor do I find it unethical, shady, slimy, or anything of the likes to suggest that 7 year old training material is out of date and you should buy newer stuff.

[ToddG]

TGS -- My thoughts as well. It doesn't have to be an either/or thing. "I'd like you to buy the DVDs that I get paid for, and I've also modified what I teach based on another seven years of experience so the new DVDs teach different, and I think better, stuff."

It's the guy who thinks his 20 year old VCR tapes are still "state of the art" that would concern me more...

[DocGKR]

"This is how he feeds his family."

I suspect his family is fed well enough on the income from his wife's dermatology practice: http://www.haleydermatology.com/

[PPGMD]

I suspect his family is fed well enough on the income from his wife's dermatology practice: http://www.haleydermatology.com/

Didn't Travis also pimp some dermatology products too?

[Artemas]

Didn't Travis also pimp some dermatology products too?


Yes, and now it makes so much more sense as to why he had skin cream for sale next to gun stuff.

[PPGMD]

Yes, and now it makes so much more sense as to why he had skin cream for sale next to gun stuff.

More power to him. If he wants to pimp a line of tactical pink tutus to his fanboys, I have no issues.

[TGS]

I suspect his family is fed well enough on the income from his wife's dermatology practice: http://www.haleydermatology.com/

What does that actually have to do with any of this?

I'm legitimately curious.

[gtmtnbiker98]

What does that actually have to do with any of this?

I'm legitimately curious.Because of a previous comment stating they they "didn't think that he was hurting for money."

[Wondering Beard]

Dang, I didn't not know that about the Panteo guy.

I had no idea either, I recognized the name Coehlo from Triton and Woolrich but had no clue about the dishonesty. I hope he has mended his ways (though I don't tend to be optimistic about that sort of person).

That said, I have a couple of Panteao vids and they've been interesting to watch.

[TCinVA]

What does that actually have to do with any of this?

I'm legitimately curious.

He likely won't be starving or otherwise in financial distress if folks don't buy his new stuff, that's all.

[C45P312]

I think it'd be a bit naive to assume that Haley is not a businessman.

This is how he feeds his family. What he's saying is probably a good business decision. I would not fault him for that, nor do I find it unethical, shady, slimy, or anything of the likes to suggest that 7 year old training material is out of date and you should buy newer stuff.

Yeah, he could have formed his opinion better before going live with it online.

[Steve f]

ahhh if i could only speak freely 1 year left i should Write a book

[Steve f]

there are also a lot of others in this industry that aren't on the up and up never get caught this one happened to get caught not one is above perfection

[ToddG]

<-- LOL'd

edit: LOL'd with, not LOL'd at, before anyone in the interverse tries to turn my four letter comment into a world war.

[Jay Cunningham]

By all means, when it's time to spill, do it here!

[C45P312]

By all means, when it's time to spill, do it here!

Yes please.

[Steve f]

beers and bourbon be a lot easier

[Jay Cunningham]

beers and bourbon be a lot easier

That can be arranged.

[C45P312]

That can be arranged.

I'll throw in for that.

[ToddG]

Steve, I'd advise caution. While these two might tell you they're only getting you drunk for your mind, they're probably more interested in your body.

[Jay Cunningham]

Possibly true.

[PPGMD]

Steve, I'd advise caution. While these two might tell you they're only getting you drunk for your mind, they're probably more interested in your body.

He was asking for it, I mean look at how tight his shirt is. Or how his tactical pants, holster, knife and fun are all the latest cool guy stuff.

[ToddG]

He was asking for it, I mean look at how tight his shirt is.

OMG I just realized that Caleb could be Steve's personal mini-me.


Or how his tactical pants, holster, knife and fun are all the latest cool guy stuff.

The holster, knife, and fun inside his pants? Hey dude, I'm not here to judge...

[PPGMD]

OMG I just realized that Caleb could be Steve's personal mini-me.

I LOL'd. It would be even funnier, if weren't for the fact that I am as tall as Caleb.


The holster, knife, and fun inside his pants? Hey dude, I'm not here to judge...

I am man enough to admit that I want to play with another man's $4k ultra custom 1911, and $500 custom knife.

[ToddG]

... I want to play with another man's ...

Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

[orionz06]

Yes, and now it makes so much more sense as to why he had skin cream for sale next to gun stuff.

I dunno, based on all the beard lube and beard oil crap being marketed these days I wouldn't be too surprised to see a wave of cerakote for fingernails take off. Because tactical.

[TGS]

I totally lost you guys over the last bunch of comments.

I'm really bad at this interwebs thing.

[MVS]

.
I'm really bad at this interwebs thing.

Thats not necessarily a bad thing.

[PPGMD]

Is that what the kids are calling it these days?

It always goes back to sex with you, and they say I'm the pervert.

[breakingtime91]

I actually got corrected on the range the other day because "i wasn't shooting aggressively enough, like haley". Unfortunately it was my shooting partner and I am now noticing how big of a fan boy he is... I am all for people making money and also people digging what he has to say (i think he knows his stuff) but to only do what he does is weird to me. There are so many other trainers out there, I do not know why people become so fixated on Travis Haley and Chris Costa but not Frank Proctor and Kyle Defoor who are awesome trainers in their own rights.

[saints75]

Haley and Costa marketed themselfs really well with the Magpul videos and made them famous. It wasn't until last year I heard of Defoor. I get what Haley is saying about seven year old training videos. When I started shooting ARs back in 2009, I purchased both Magpul videos. They had good info on them. Things of changed since 2009. Training has changed, tactics have changes and equipment has changed. I will admit I like Haley better then Costa, but I do not do everything Haley says. I saw a couple of training tips from Defoor on Youtube. I like the way he does things.

Interesting about the video company. I never know.

[Steve f]

sights are still sights and triggers are still triggers any one can shoot fast up close

[Steve f]

OMG I just realized that Caleb could be Steve's personal mini-me.



The holster, knife, and fun inside his pants? Hey dude, I'm not here to judge...



Whores all of you, i swear i was glad i was the guy in the background all those years and at least go tot change a a lot of the old stuff to what I felt it should have been Sigh never did i sign one autograph or ask for my picture taken thank god unless it was with buddies that were at class

[DocGKR]

Most regular folks would likely be shocked that many of the "biggest" and most visible names in the firearms training industry are not necessarily the best individuals to actually train with.

[David S.]

This should probably go into its own thread, but who do you think are the best individuals to train with?

oooohhhh goody goody.

[orionz06]

This should probably go into its own thread, but who do you think are the best individuals to train with?

It would make a great thread that would surely gather an audience.

[jetfire]

sights are still sights and triggers are still triggers any one can shoot fast up close

I could probably teach an entire class based on this sentence alone.

[benEzra]

While I found some of the stuff in the Magpul DVDs kind of hokey, if a person actually internalizes the information and then practices it regularly, they'll have a better skill base than someone who just shows up at the range with no practice whatsoever. No, they won't be a GM, and yes their stance will be all kinds of messed up, but I sort of view them like I'd view taking the entire Gunsite battery of courses: it's better than not training.
What would be a better video set to pick up these days? Obviously training class > video.

[rob_s]

Most regular folks would likely be shocked that many of the "biggest" and most visible names in the firearms training industry are not necessarily the best individuals to actually train with.

Agree strongly.

Most of the qualities that people look for in an instructor (operational time, youtube channels and social media presence, branded gear, etc.) aren't really in any way useful to the regular Joe CCW/shooter. it doesn't mean those things preclude one from being a good instructor (both the Kyles, Defoor and Lamb, are exceptions) but those things alone are not enough.

Similarly, most people are ill-equipped to evaluate the training they receive(d) in any sort of objective way, certainly for their first half-dozen classes or so. "Fun" gets confused with "learning", as does improvement through repetition vs. improvement through coaching and teaching.

However, outside of anything dangerous on the range (think, Tactical Response) or dangerous "on the streets", the repetition you'll get at a 2-3 day class is probably better than not shooting at all.

[Wondering Beard]

I'm just glad that I started training before the internet clogged things up. If I started now, I would be quite confused as to whom to train with.

[Steve f]

I could probably teach an entire class based on this sentence alone.




!00% i do pretty much amazing how that works

[Dagga Boy]

!00% i do pretty much amazing how that works

I was talking to Uncle Pat the other day, and we were laughing about the good folks with any level of real experience and a solid program are essentially teaching that same stuff, that is in no way magical. You go to these folks to maybe hear things different so it sticks better for how you learn, and to get issues diagnosed. We have figured out that visually verifying that your sights are on, and pressing a trigger straight to the rear with follow through to do it again simply works. It is getting folks to do it correctly, and then the advanced version is doing it under less than optimal conditions, which leads to the classes for doing the same thing in the dark, and while working cars or structures. Simple, but not easy.
Of course the other part is proper application to when to press the trigger on a person, or in the competition realm, on a target.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

You know, this is exactly why I'm always shoving people towards the Shivworks courses.

I've had some big-name pistol and rifle instruction, and it's all pretty similar and once you've got your head around the fundamentals, it's pretty much all the same. This isn't a complaint; it's just that shooting in and of itself is pretty straightforward. Exactly as Nyeti says, it might not be easy but it's simple.

Where I really like to get the reps in is dealing with competitive, non-consenting, aggressive, self-motivated targets, under conditions that are seriously brain-twisting. Is this a target? Are you about to get asked for directions or suckerpunched? Can you cope with the suckerpunchery? Did you remember to put in your mouthguard?



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