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Dagga Boy
11-26-2014, 05:58 PM
We'll start the "I hate you" thread with this.
3" Smith & Wesson custom shop Model 65 with VZ grips.

Wheeler
11-26-2014, 06:17 PM
I see your BBQ gun and raise you a Rode-Hard-And-Put-Away-Wet model 36. :-)

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt86/Wheeler686/Projects/53492309-0AF7-4F49-AD33-C53804AB68B3_zpsi32l64gv.jpg (http://s600.photobucket.com/user/Wheeler686/media/Projects/53492309-0AF7-4F49-AD33-C53804AB68B3_zpsi32l64gv.jpg.html)

Sheep Have Wool
11-26-2014, 06:20 PM
nyeti, I don't care much about revolvers and that is nice.

Dave Williams
11-26-2014, 06:25 PM
Nice. My friend has a sweeeet 3" 65 that Scott Mulkerin did I'll see if I can get a pic of it.

Dagga Boy
11-26-2014, 06:42 PM
I see the J frame and raise you an N-Model 27-2

David Armstrong
11-26-2014, 06:45 PM
No pics, but my two favorite revolvers are a 3" Smith Mdl 65 and a 3" Mdl 36, both with bobbed hammers.

Hizzie
11-26-2014, 07:16 PM
Digging that 65. Love the 27 but N-Frames don't love my medium sized mitts back.

Tamara
11-26-2014, 07:23 PM
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag421/Tamara_Keel/CCWwheels_zps1b2ec6b0.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/Tamara_Keel/media/CCWwheels_zps1b2ec6b0.jpg.html)

PC640 and PC13, from back in the Liebenberg/French Performance Center days...

Tamara
11-26-2014, 07:26 PM
From (almost) the height of my 3" SS N-frame collecting days:

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag421/Tamara_Keel/nframes13_zpscc85062c.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/Tamara_Keel/media/nframes13_zpscc85062c.jpg.html)

Left Column: PC627 (S/N JMC0001), 629, 610
Right Column: 625 in .45 Colt, 624

I scored a 657, too, before I started getting out of the SS guns...

Jason Burton
11-26-2014, 07:26 PM
But 4 (inch) is more… :cool:

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8624/15701457049_84d096408f_c.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7576/15701732297_f6dbfc2c51_c.jpg

Tamara
11-26-2014, 07:27 PM
But 4 (inch) is more… :cool:

But it's less 3". :p

(My head knows that the 4" taper-barrel guns are near ideal for carrying and the 6" heavy barrels are better for shooting, but my heart likes 3" and 5" guns because I'm just a Smith & Wesson nerd.)

Dagga Boy
11-26-2014, 07:39 PM
But it's less 3". :p

(My head knows that the 4" taper-barrel guns are near ideal for carrying and the 6" heavy barrels are better for shooting, but my heart likes 3" and 5" guns because I'm just a Smith & Wesson nerd.)

A nerd with great taste. Here ya go nerd-1950's pre 27 with honey ivories:

LSP972
11-26-2014, 07:41 PM
But 4 (inch) is more… :cool:

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8624/15701457049_84d096408f_c.jpg


Please… PLEASE… tell me those aren't Goodyears on that Heavy Duty???

.

Tamara
11-26-2014, 08:02 PM
A nerd with great taste. Here ya go nerd-1950's pre 27 with honey ivories:

Nerdin' back atcha! Pre-Bangor Punta 27-2...

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag421/Tamara_Keel/27-2_zps728a7630.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/Tamara_Keel/media/27-2_zps728a7630.jpg.html)

LSP972
11-26-2014, 08:13 PM
Please quit posting that photo. It activates my regressive gene; the one which says "You NEED that!"

.

Sigfan26
11-26-2014, 08:16 PM
3" model 13 is on the list for "guns i need to own".

Dagga Boy
11-26-2014, 08:22 PM
3" Lew Horton 629 with Tucker leather and VZ grips (I think those are also VZ G10's on the picture Jason posted).

GJM
11-26-2014, 09:02 PM
3" Lew Horton 629 with Tucker leather and VZ grips (I think those are also VZ G10's on the picture Jason posted).

Until this photo, I have just been seeing a bunch of girlie guns. Revolvers that interest me are in calibers that start with a .4.

Tamara
11-26-2014, 09:11 PM
Until this photo, I have just been seeing a bunch of girlie guns. Revolvers that interest me are in calibers that start with a .4.

There were four revolvers in calibers that start with ".4" in my second photo, unless you're not counting 10mm, in which case there were three.

But, yes, all mine were girlie guns. Even the .44 Magnum. Even the 1-of-100 3" 625 .45 Colt. :D

GJM
11-26-2014, 09:14 PM
There were four revolvers in calibers that start with ".4" in my second photo, unless you're not counting 10mm, in which case there were three.

But, yes, all mine were girlie guns. Even the .44 Magnum. Even the 1-of-100 3" 625 .45 Colt. :D

I missed that -- guess I also generally dismiss revolvers with less than four inch barrels as also being g...... guns. :)

Tamara
11-26-2014, 09:19 PM
Here's a girlie gun, for you, GJM: An early no-dash flat latch Model 30... :)

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag421/Tamara_Keel/Model30_zps289af8ed.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/Tamara_Keel/media/Model30_zps289af8ed.jpg.html)

GJM
11-26-2014, 09:46 PM
Here's a girlie gun, for you, GJM: An early no-dash flat latch Model 30... :)

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag421/Tamara_Keel/Model30_zps289af8ed.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/Tamara_Keel/media/Model30_zps289af8ed.jpg.html)

Now that is gorgeous and obviously a collector. Never heard of a model 30 -- ltell us about it.

I only have two collectors -- a pre 64 .375 owned by a missionary, with 50 odd notches representing each elephant taken, and a single digit Wilson Brig TAC.

Tamara
11-26-2014, 10:09 PM
Now that is gorgeous and obviously a collector. Never heard of a model 30 -- ltell us about it.

It's what I said it was: A girlie gun. An Improved I-Frame .32 S&W Long. Nothing particularly special, but it's likely unfired, for what that's worth. (Prob'ly an extra $25.)

Dagga Boy
11-26-2014, 10:26 PM
Okay, being we are doing "Girl guns". This was my wife's gun. She did not like guns or violence (opposites attract:cool:), but understood that with my job she should have a gun. She tried several things (Sig P225, Glock19), but she fell in love with this model 65 3" and shot it well. She wasn't into shooting but would go once every couple years until she got too sick. This was her gun and was in her nightstand till her death. It is now my 12 year old daughter's. She can check it's status, does dry practice and penny drills, and is going to start shooting steel matches with me after Volleyball season. It is a cherished gun in my home and it is the tool for my girls to protect themselves. Thanks to GJM she also has a 3953.

Tamara
11-26-2014, 10:46 PM
Nice. Very nice.

Dagga Boy
11-26-2014, 11:02 PM
Last one for tonight. 3" 7 shot Performance Center 681 with Birdsong Black and Green T (which I am less than enthralled with).

Wheeler
11-26-2014, 11:12 PM
3" 686 6 shooter

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt86/Wheeler686/S%20and%20W/100_1274.jpg (http://s600.photobucket.com/user/Wheeler686/media/S%20and%20W/100_1274.jpg.html)

GJM
11-26-2014, 11:15 PM
Last one for tonight. 3" 7 shot Performance Center 681 with Birdsong Black and Green T (which I am less than enthralled with).

I like that! I don't usually admit to revolvers shorter than four inch, or smaller than .44/.45, but in my serious Smith revolver stage I got a bunch of them. I have a 3 inch 10mm, great trigger and NP3 finished. I always thought that a six shot 10mm on a K or L frame would be the ultimate mid bore Smith revolver. A buddy who was connected, and I tried to get Smith to produce that, but it didn't happen. Somehow an N frame 10mm is like buying a 5 series BMW 525 instead of a 535.

Wheeler
11-26-2014, 11:18 PM
Not as unique as Tam's.
3" 30-1

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt86/Wheeler686/S%20and%20W/77A2EEE8-1947-4F07-9244-9CF663E008A1_zpsxeekjdh2.jpg (http://s600.photobucket.com/user/Wheeler686/media/S%20and%20W/77A2EEE8-1947-4F07-9244-9CF663E008A1_zpsxeekjdh2.jpg.html)

GJM
11-26-2014, 11:19 PM
Here is one bin of my Smith revolver pile, all I think tweaked by Bowen:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg1_zps28dc81c3.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg1_zps28dc81c3.jpg.html)

My favorite pre Scandium lw .44:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/bowen44_zpsc5326ddc.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/bowen44_zpsc5326ddc.jpg.html)

And finally, the S&W revolver I owned with the best power to weight ratio:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/329_zpsc7989380.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/329_zpsc7989380.jpg.html)

Tamara
11-26-2014, 11:22 PM
I always thought that a six shot 10mm on a K or L frame would be the ultimate mid bore Smith revolver.

Won't work with a steel cylinder, or so I'm told, which is why the 646s had Ti cylinders. (There are a few 646s out there that have been reamed to 10mm, though. We did at least one back when I was working at Randy's in K-Town.)

ToddG
11-26-2014, 11:24 PM
I'm glad I stopped teaching. I see all these new gun designs you guys are posting about and for the life of me I cannot even figure out where the magazine goes.

Haraise
11-26-2014, 11:31 PM
I'm glad I stopped teaching. I see all these new gun designs you guys are posting about and for the life of me I cannot even figure out where the magazine goes.

Where it normally does...

2802

ToddG
11-26-2014, 11:32 PM
Where it normally does...

2802

So do want!

Tamara
11-26-2014, 11:38 PM
I'm glad I stopped teaching. I see all these new gun designs you guys are posting about and for the life of me I cannot even figure out where the magazine goes.

Lord, forgive him, for he is smitten in the taste buds and knows not what he says...

RevolverRob
11-26-2014, 11:54 PM
I'm glad I stopped teaching. I see all these new gun designs you guys are posting about and for the life of me I cannot even figure out where the magazine goes.

I am sincerely hoping that someday you'll start teaching again. And when you do, I'm going to show up with a 3" Model 65 and we'll find out how FAST I can be with it (which isn't as fast as Miculek could be, that's for sure).

To wit - I own only one 3" Smith revolver a nice M65-3. But I've got a big list for when I get back to gun collecting (not for awhile, apparently). In the mean time, a stack of Colts, Rugers, and a couple of other Smiths is at least keeping it company.

-Rob

ToddG
11-27-2014, 12:00 AM
Lord, forgive him, for he is smitten in the taste buds and knows not what he says...

Oh, you eat them, not shoot them. I don't feel so bad, then.


I am sincerely hoping that someday you'll start teaching again. And when you do, I'm going to show up with a 3" Model 65 and we'll find out how FAST I can be with it (which isn't as fast as Miculek could be, that's for sure).

Not to send this into a thread jack, but I've been toying with the idea of doing some kind of charity "try to win a FAST pin/coin" event. As long as you don't mind flying to wherever we do it...

Tamara
11-27-2014, 12:08 AM
Not to send this into a thread jack, but I've been toying with the idea of doing some kind of charity "try to win a FAST pin/coin" event. As long as you don't mind flying to wherever we do it...

Dude, there's this guy in South Dakota who likes wheelguns who'd be easy to bait into that one. I'd even throw down money to get him to do it on video. :D

rsa-otc
11-27-2014, 06:02 AM
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag421/Tamara_Keel/CCWwheels_zps1b2ec6b0.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/Tamara_Keel/media/CCWwheels_zps1b2ec6b0.jpg.html)

PC640 and PC13, from back in the Liebenberg/French Performance Center days...

Sorry nyeti but it is Tam for the win with the PC13. As nice and I do mean nice as your 65 is, blued guns have soul. The only problem is I could not bare the thought of carrying it being afraid of messing up the finish with saddle wear. At this point in my life stainless is for working guns. Pristine blued guns are for fondling and drueling over.

You guys have my jealous/hate meter pegged to the max. And I am usually a easy going loving sort. Now I am going to go curl up in a corner somewhere, rock back and forth mumbling to myself and work out my issues.

Todd I always wanted to take one of your classes and try to talk you into allowing me to attempt to earn a place on your wall with a wheely. That I pretty sure that I can accomplish unless the pressure gets to me. A coin not so much unless you adjust the times for Revolvers.

rsa-otc
11-27-2014, 06:52 AM
I missed that -- guess I also generally dismiss revolvers with less than four inch barrels as also being g...... guns. :)

Many feel the Glock 19 to be the best all around carry gun. I think an argument can be made that 3" round butt K frame sized revolver (of the S&W persuasion because I am a nerd/snob too) is the best all around carry revolver.

What do you guys think?

Hambo
11-27-2014, 07:45 AM
You guys are making me regret dumping my non-girlie 3" and 4" Smiths...and not buying that factory 3" M66 I saw years ago...

Tamara
11-27-2014, 07:56 AM
Many feel the Glock 19 to be the best all around carry gun. I think an argument can be made that 3" round butt K frame sized revolver (of the S&W persuasion because I am a nerd/snob too) is the best all around carry revolver.

What do you guys think?

I absolutely agree.

(Well, if the 3" HB/RB K is the G19, the taper-barrel 4" N is the Government Model.;))

Lon
11-27-2014, 08:40 AM
Many feel the Glock 19 to be the best all around carry gun. I think an argument can be made that 3" round butt K frame sized revolver (of the S&W persuasion because I am a nerd/snob too) is the best all around carry revolver.

What do you guys think?

Agreed. I love my 65-3 3". Best DAO trigger I've ever felt on a wheel gun.

I'm planning on getting a 19 or 66 that's beat up to make into my perfect carry revolver. A 3" DAO K frame RB cut for moons and a set of the C&S Extreme Duty sights. Then it'll go to Bill for a finish job.

Dagga Boy
11-27-2014, 08:50 AM
So do want!

Group buy!!!!!! In orange!

Dagga Boy
11-27-2014, 09:22 AM
Sorry nyeti but it is Tam for the win with the PC13. As nice and I do mean nice as your 65 is, blued guns have soul. The only problem is I could not bare the thought of carrying it being afraid of messing up the finish with saddle wear. At this point in my life stainless is for working guns. Pristine blued guns are for fondling and drueling over.

You guys have my jealous/hate meter pegged to the max. And I am usually a easy going loving sort. Now I am going to go curl up in a corner somewhere, rock back and forth mumbling to myself and work out my issues.

Todd I always wanted to take one of your classes and try to talk you into allowing me to attempt to earn a place on your wall with a wheely. That I pretty sure that I can accomplish unless the pressure gets to me. A coin not so much unless you adjust the times for Revolvers.

Don't worry, I have just started. I too thought "that evil woman, I hate her", but......I have held many in reserve to keep folks returning to the awesomeness of this thread.

I love these things. I would agree with the 3" K/L being the G-19ish gun of the revolver world, and the 4" N as the Govt. Model. (although I do like my Commanders:p-3-3.5" N's). There is just something about running a wheel gun that is a ton of fun, and like the 1911, just have a certain soul to them.....except the ones with the lock where their soul was removed and they are just shooting things.

It is also always fun to watch a good shooter on a wheel gun. It is fun trying to be good. I am sort of at the point where the VP9 has really settled as my soul-less daily carry and training guns. I have simply re-focused on having fun again in life with guns and enjoying my lifetime of acquisitions. The best of those that make me happy are revolvers and 1911's (okay, and the pile of P7's). Getting back to competing and using my 686SSR is fun and I am focused on running down the bottom feeders.

Keep em coming.........Todd needs to get this figured out. Notice I also didn't specify which 3" revolvers.........where is Hizzie the double gunning 3" GP100 full house magnum dude who makes me happy when I hear the thunder from his shooting position on the line?

As soon as this thread burns out......we'll do the 4-7" ers.

LSP972
11-27-2014, 09:39 AM
I absolutely agree.

(Well, if the 3" HB/RB K is the G19, the taper-barrel 4" N is the Government Model.;))

Indeed. If faced between choosing a 3" RB K frame, a 3.5" M-27, or a 4" H/D 38/44, given all in equal condition (and ignoring the relative collector value; I don't own collectors, I own shooters)… I just don't know what I would do.

.

Dagga Boy
11-27-2014, 10:18 AM
Openish carry-3.5" 27, the "Killing Gun", preferably in a Sloan holster. Concealed-3" K IWB. Easy:)

Jeep
11-27-2014, 11:02 AM
Agreed, but would you really want to carry a 3.5 inch model 27 and risk damaging the finish? Pretty much any blued Smith is a work of art, but a 3.5 inch model 27 is close to the holy grail. If they made the model 28 in 3.5, I think that would be the carry gun.

Anyway--great idea for a thread--and those who think that four inch barrels are superior to 3 inchers are plainly heretics who should be sent off to the re-education camps.

Wheeler
11-27-2014, 11:02 AM
I'm pretty happy carrying my 4" pencil barrel, round butt model 12. I'm still pondering converting a model 12 to a 3". I just need to get my grubby paws on a 12-4.

Dagga Boy
11-27-2014, 11:53 AM
I'm pretty happy carrying my 4" pencil barrel, round butt model 12. I'm still pondering converting a model 12 to a 3". I just need to get my grubby paws on a 12-4.

I just got a 2" Model 12 recently....boy was I a dummy not finding these earlier. It is funny, I was just thinking last night that a modern "612" 3" built just like a K frame 642 and rated for the same +P .38 as the snubs would be a great gun for a ton of people. I would be on one like a fat kid on cake.

Jeep, I used to be the same way on my 3.5 model 27.....until I got my nickel pre 27 and registered magnum #40 and now th 3.5 model 27-2 is my beater:cool:

LSP972
11-27-2014, 12:04 PM
Agreed, but would you really want to carry a 3.5 inch model 27 and risk damaging the finish?

Absolutely. In the first place, while I could afford a pristine example such as the one Tam has, I wouldn't cough up that amount of cash; there are plenty of shooters out there, ones that have been used to a degree and look it, but are still mechanically sound. Like, one with some holster wear at the muzzle and cylinder front edge, a few scratches here and there, prominent turn line and bright edges/corners… you bet, I'd carry that in a heartbeat.

.

rsa-otc
11-27-2014, 12:05 PM
I just got a 2" Model 12 recently....boy was I a dummy not finding these earlier. It is funny, I was just thinking last night that a modern "612" 3" built just like a K frame 642 and rated for the same +P .38 as the snubs would be a great gun for a ton of people. I would be on one like a fat kid on cake.

Jeep, I used to be the same way on my 3.5 model 27.....until I got my nickel pre 27 and registered magnum #40 and now th 3.5 model 27-2 is my beater:cool:


A model 27 a beater? Sacrilege! :cool:

LSP972
11-27-2014, 12:31 PM
I just got a 2" Model 12 recently....boy was I a dummy not finding these earlier. It is funny, I was just thinking last night that a modern "612" 3" built just like a K frame 642 and rated for the same +P .38 as the snubs would be a great gun for a ton of people. I would be on one like a fat kid on cake.



Me too. I have a 12-3 2" RB, but am hesitant to shoot it, even with standard pressure loads, because once the frame cracks under the forcing cone, that's it. When you send one back to S&W, you'll never see it again and be offered your choice of a replacement. I looked into putting a 3" heavy barrel from an M-10 or M-13 and normal ejector rod on this revolver about five or so years ago. My last contact at the factory told me they wouldn't touch that job (swapping the barrel) due to liability concerns, and that they had stopped servicing M-12s a looooonnnggg time ago for the same reason.

A new version, with 3" shrouded barrel and scandium frame, would be the cat's ass. A titanium cylinder would be too much to ask for (not enough folks would pay that freight), but I'd take a regular stainless cylinder in a New York minute.

In fact, I'd violate my personal oath to never buy another lock-equipped S&W revolver for one of these. The one I do have (M-360PD) was purchased by accident, before I even knew about that stupid abortion. I was intrigued by the uber light weight on these "Ti-Scan" J frames I'd heard about, so I ordered one blind from a fellow trooper with an FFL. Imagine my surprise when I opened that box...:rolleyes:

.

Glenn E. Meyer
11-27-2014, 01:19 PM
This is my favorite - it is a touch off the beaten track.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_766187_-1_757895_757775_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

It's a 327 Mag - mine is stainless though and I put fiber optics on it. A nice 6 shot J. I've shot an IDPA match (outlaw) with it for grins, with 32 SW Longs. I could knock down a popper but you could see it hesitate before decided to topple.

45dotACP
11-27-2014, 01:31 PM
I hate a good deal of you all right now...but these 3" revos are making me weak kneed.

Tamara
11-27-2014, 01:33 PM
I just got a 2" Model 12 recently....boy was I a dummy not finding these earlier. It is funny, I was just thinking last night that a modern "612" 3" built just like a K frame 642 and rated for the same +P .38 as the snubs would be a great gun for a ton of people. I would be on one like a fat kid on cake.

You need a Model 242 (http://www.ma-rooned.com/2011/01/grail-gun-achieved.html).

Tamara
11-27-2014, 01:38 PM
Absolutely. In the first place, while I could afford a pristine example such as the one Tam has, I wouldn't cough up that amount of cash...

That's the thing about that one; it was expensive (at the time) for a S&W revolver, but not crazy money, and I was in the middle of my hardcore 1911 love affair. While it sat around in the safe for a few years, it just so happened to near double in price, all without me ever busting a cap in it. Now I dither over whether I should. If the recoil shield weren't so absolutely pristine... :(

I need a shooter-grade 4" 28 in my life before those get too crazy, too...

Jason Burton
11-27-2014, 01:38 PM
.... I think those are also VZ G10's on the picture Jason posted.

Correct... M22's, a M28, and a pre-28 all with VZ G10's... except for the ivorys of course. ;)

LSP972
11-27-2014, 01:45 PM
You need a Model 242.

Ain't the same. Got one of those too. The odd hump-back shape is just… wrong… to a true S&W purist. They were, however, smart enough to keep the K-frame grip on an L-frame.

That said, the M-242 is a really neat piece, and while a bit large, it makes a pretty good jacket-pocket gun on really cold days when you need a heavy jacket. One really interesting aspect of these seven-shot L-frames is the short trigger throw, due to the extra charge hole making a shorter distance the hand has to move to rotate the cylinder.

Mine is like-new; but if I ran across another one I'd snarf it immediately unless it was totally trashed. But in the end, it ain't a by-God K-frame…

.

Tamara
11-27-2014, 01:50 PM
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag421/Tamara_Keel/44special2_zps2c73a275.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/Tamara_Keel/media/44special2_zps2c73a275.jpg.html)

There's a 3" 696 in that picture of some .44 Specials. It's a 3" gun.

Dagga Boy
11-27-2014, 01:52 PM
You need a Model 242 (http://www.ma-rooned.com/2011/01/grail-gun-achieved.html).

I have a Bowen 296 that is one of my all time favorite guns. Hard to look at the two and go "I'll take the .38", even if it makes more sense. That 296 loaded up with Gold Dots is my idea of a "5 shot".

Dagga Boy
11-27-2014, 01:54 PM
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag421/Tamara_Keel/44special2_zps2c73a275.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/Tamara_Keel/media/44special2_zps2c73a275.jpg.html)

There's a 3" 696 in that picture of some .44 Specials. It's a 3" gun.

I was torn between the 696 and 296. Especially in the looks department as the 296's are an ugly baby. The 296 just made a ton more sense, and once Hamilton Bowen got his hands on it, it is wonderous.

Jeep
11-27-2014, 01:59 PM
Absolutely. In the first place, while I could afford a pristine example such as the one Tam has, I wouldn't cough up that amount of cash; there are plenty of shooters out there, ones that have been used to a degree and look it, but are still mechanically sound. Like, one with some holster wear at the muzzle and cylinder front edge, a few scratches here and there, prominent turn line and bright edges/corners… you bet, I'd carry that in a heartbeat.

.

Well I hear you. And like you I have always tended to buy shooters, but I figure a 3 inch 686 could do everything a 3.5 27 could do, and I wouldn't worry about destroying it.

Of course, 27's in almost any condition have been extremely rare for the better part of a decade where I live, and I've seen exactly two 28's in the last 5 years or so (one of which I picked up).

Tamara
11-27-2014, 02:05 PM
The 296 just made a ton more sense, and once Hamilton Bowen got his hands on it, it is wonderous.

Denny Reichard at Sand Burr Gun Ranch has been all up in mine since that photo was taken. He also loads a 185gr LHP @ 900fps specifically for the 296. It's my favorite purse howitzer. :D

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag421/Tamara_Keel/44painting_zpsda9d85fd.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/Tamara_Keel/media/44painting_zpsda9d85fd.jpg.html)

Dagga Boy
11-27-2014, 02:08 PM
Denny Reichard at Sand Burr Gun Ranch has been all up in mine since that photo was taken. It's my favorite purse howitzer. :D

It's my favorite purse howitzer too!

Lon
11-27-2014, 02:12 PM
A new version, with 3" shrouded barrel and scandium frame, would be the cat's ass. A titanium cylinder would be too much to ask for (not enough folks would pay that freight), but I'd take a regular stainless cylinder in a New York minute.


THIS. A three inch Night Guard K Frame .357 mag - the 366. I'd buy two.

Tamara
11-27-2014, 02:16 PM
THIS. A three inch Night Guard K Frame .357 mag - the 366. I'd buy two.

If it were a fixed sight, I'd fight you for them. :D

Lon
11-27-2014, 02:22 PM
If it were a fixed sight, I'd fight you for them. :D

My preference would be the Extreme Duty/Big Dot combo with a single tritium dot at bottom of the U notch on the rear sight. Although I wouldn't complain about an updated scandium/titanium version of the PC13 with no ports and a tritium front sight. Probably buy two of those as well.

Tamara
11-27-2014, 02:35 PM
While I'm not a huge fan of porting, I do have to relate the story of the time a guy called out the ports on my 3" 629:

"Those're no good on a defensive gun."

"Why?"

"The flash from the ports will blind you at night!"

"Uh, it's a three-inch .44 Magnum. If you don't pick the right load, it's gonna make a fireball the size of a beach ball, ports or no."

Al T.
11-27-2014, 03:06 PM
VZ grips.

This place is costing me money. Again. I have a sad, sad S&W M27 3.5 (was rusted so bad I had to soak in MMO for a month) that I paid 30 bucks for. It's way overdue for a trip to APW for a bead blast and a hard chrome finish.

And now I find out that VZ makes revolver grips. Dang!

LSP972
11-27-2014, 06:34 PM
That's the thing about that one; it was expensive (at the time) for a S&W revolver, but not crazy money, and I was in the middle of my hardcore 1911 love affair. While it sat around in the safe for a few years, it just so happened to near double in price, all without me ever busting a cap in it. Now I dither over whether I should. If the recoil shield weren't so absolutely pristine... :(



Interesting. Indeed you have a dilemma. One in that condition is worth some serious bucks; especially if you have the box, papers, tools, etc. If so, I'd probably leave it be and look for a shooter. Wouldn't need no steenkin' 4" M-28 with a shooter 3.5" M-27…


.

LSP972
11-27-2014, 06:37 PM
Correct... M22's... with VZ G10's...

Thank goodness. ;)

.

Robinson
11-27-2014, 10:56 PM
I prefer 4" guns, but this thread rocks.

Totem Polar
11-28-2014, 01:25 AM
This thread made me visit my safe.

3" 36-1 RB
2" 12 RB
3" 65 RB

http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab79/Sidheguitarist/mbros/CAM01859_zps558c72a2.jpg (http://s851.photobucket.com/user/Sidheguitarist/media/mbros/CAM01859_zps558c72a2.jpg.html)

I do love the type of wheelies currently under discussion. :cool:



I just got a 2" Model 12 recently....boy was I a dummy not finding these earlier. It is funny, I was just thinking last night that a modern "612" 3" built just like a K frame 642 and rated for the same +P .38 as the snubs would be a great gun for a ton of people. I would be on one like a fat kid on cake.


"Researchers in the US say the ability to create art, invent tools and think scientifically comes from a neural network which spreads across a large area of the brain."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2423933/Scientists-discover-brain-allows-humans-imagine-think-creatively.html

May God act on the neural networks of S&W brass to make it so. I would stand in line. I mean, I would *literally* stand in line for such a K-frame.

@Tamara: 242. I did not remember such a beast. What has been seen cannot be unseen; you have unwittingly triggered a cascade of "want" in the part of my own neural network responsible for tools and creativity. ;)

Wheeler
11-28-2014, 06:32 AM
Well I hear you. And like you I have always tended to buy shooters, but I figure a 3 inch 686 could do everything a 3.5 27 could do, and I wouldn't worry about destroying it.

Of course, 27's in almost any condition have been extremely rare for the better part of a decade where I live, and I've seen exactly two 28's in the last 5 years or so (one of which I picked up).

The 686's will not hold up to the heavy Keith and Skelton loads. The 27's and 28's will. Don't ask me how I know this. :-)

MGW
11-28-2014, 09:06 AM
You need a Model 242 (http://www.ma-rooned.com/2011/01/grail-gun-achieved.html).

I didn't even know that existed. The holy grail indeed.

MGW
11-28-2014, 09:23 AM
This place is costing me money. Again. I have a sad, sad S&W M27 3.5 (was rusted so bad I had to soak in MMO for a month) that I paid 30 bucks for. It's way overdue for a trip to APW for a bead blast and a hard chrome finish.

And now I find out that VZ makes revolver grips. Dang!

Black Friday sale. 20% off everything if you enter blackfriday20.

Malamute
11-28-2014, 09:40 AM
The 686's will not hold up to the heavy Keith and Skelton loads. The 27's and 28's will. Don't ask me how I know this. :-)

I saw a thread elsewhere where a guy had shot 75,000 wadcutters through his 27. Certainly not full power stuff, but sounds like a lot of fun shooting, and perhaps something to aspire to.

jh9
11-28-2014, 11:12 AM
The 686's will not hold up to the heavy Keith and Skelton loads. The 27's and 28's will. Don't ask me how I know this. :-)

If you're beating a 686 down with your handloads, I humbly suggest finding a bigger caliber. :p

Ruger's got a deal on 5" .480s you might want to look into...

Malamute
11-28-2014, 11:27 AM
If you're beating a 686 down with your handloads, I humbly suggest finding a bigger caliber. :p

Ruger's got a deal on 5" .480s you might want to look into...


Keith and Skelton loads aren't outrageous level loads in 357.

The L frame guns were supposed to be a big step up from the K's, and are in the aspect of the barrel thickness at the bottom where K's would crack, but some of the guys here that had scads of them in their departments seem to feel they werent quite as much of a big step up in overall longevity as has been reported in the gun media and in legend.

I sure like mine, but if I was going to shoot lots of heavy 357 loads (heavy not meaning crazy, simply full power level) I'd want an N. Just wanting to use a caliber to its full potential wouldn't necessarily mean one wants a larger caliber.

Mitchell, Esq.
11-28-2014, 12:53 PM
http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag421/Tamara_Keel/CCWwheels_zps1b2ec6b0.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/Tamara_Keel/media/CCWwheels_zps1b2ec6b0.jpg.html)

PC640 and PC13, from back in the Liebenberg/French Performance Center days...

Lust...

I have it...

jh9
11-28-2014, 01:29 PM
Keith and Skelton loads aren't outrageous level loads in 357.

The L frame guns were supposed to be a big step up from the K's, and are in the aspect of the barrel thickness at the bottom where K's would crack, but some of the guys here that had scads of them in their departments seem to feel they werent quite as much of a big step up in overall longevity as has been reported in the gun media and in legend.

I sure like mine, but if I was going to shoot lots of heavy 357 loads (heavy not meaning crazy, simply full power level) I'd want an N. Just wanting to use a caliber to its full potential wouldn't necessarily mean one wants a larger caliber.

I'd be interested to hear what problems they had in more detail. I just compared my 627 to one of my 686s and the forcing cone *is* thicker, though I've never heard of an L letting go like a K. I suppose anything's possible.

I've got 3 of them, a -4 with about 9k on it, an early -5 with 7832 according to my roundcount.txt (primary IDPA SSR gun off and on for several years) and a 681-2 with about 3200 on it. Most of the IDPA loads were .38s, but over book max (+P+) titegroup in order to make PF while most of the 9k on the -4 were equally hot .38s or regular magnums (because I had just started reloading and #2400 was cheap locally). Not a lot of shooting compared to some but it's more than semioccasional plinking with wadcutters.

Of course, if I see threads on the usual fora tomorrow asking if Ls will blow up if you shoot a box of Double Tap through it I'm coming right back here and blaming you. :p

Wheeler
11-28-2014, 03:08 PM
If you're beating a 686 down with your handloads, I humbly suggest finding a bigger caliber. :p

Ruger's got a deal on 5" .480s you might want to look into...

I ran a grand total of six 1800 fps, 125 grain loads (as chronoed through a 6" barrel for the original load data.) The other 22,000 or so rounds were standard pressure .357's and +P .38's. those six rounds caused a timing issue, most likely from slamming the case bases and cylinder against the recoil shield.

I traded into a 4" Model 28-2 specifically for working with the heavy .357 loads in a pistol after that. Thus far the model 28 has not had any issues with the heavy loads although I shoot them sparingly.

Trust me, I'm not into cranking up hot hand loads for the express purpose of having the loudest, most obnoxious gun in the range, I was chasing down a specific load for handgun hunting. On a slight tangent, my Winchester 94 AE digests those particular loads just fine.

Dagga Boy
11-28-2014, 04:20 PM
For today....3" Model 10-5 square butt export gun with the standard barrel. Grips by Nill.

rsa-otc
11-28-2014, 04:47 PM
As I remember Keith & Skelton were using N frame guns when they worked up their loads.

125 Grain. 357 rounds are historically hard on guns @ 1400 fps, I can just imagine how hard 1800 fps rounds would be. The only L frame sized gun that I heard would stand a steady diet of 125 Grain factory .357 were the GP100s. I wonder how one would hold up shooting 1800 fps handloads.

Of course you have the same issue with .40 S&W in loads of 150 grains and lighter beating up guns.

To me it appears screaming light weight bullets are just hard on guns.

rsa-otc
11-28-2014, 04:50 PM
For today....3" Model 10-5 square butt export gun with the standard barrel. Grips by Nill.

nyeti how big is your gun vault. My lord I want to come by and play.

Dagga Boy
11-28-2014, 04:56 PM
nyeti how big is your gun vault. My lord I want to come by and play.

For those who have seen it, the words "Oh my God" are usually the first thing uttered. Don't worry, I have a couple more I am saving in case Tam drops something like the PC13 again.

rsa-otc
11-28-2014, 05:10 PM
Not to drift the thread, but :cool:....... Does anybody know if the 586 standard ordinance steel blued version of the 686 exhibit the same problems with hot rounds that it's stainless steel brother did. It was my understanding at the time S&W had to adjust the stainless alloy content in their guns because stainless has a grain and when machined the frame would warp causing too many to be thrown away as unusable. It's one of the reasons their guns will corrode sooner than most stainless products. It always seemed to me that Smith's stainless was a bit soft. I actually have a few guns in inventory that the side plate deformities like a stick of soft butter that you ran a curved object over. I have never seen that with blued guns. This "may" be why a 686 doesn't hold up under a steady diet of 125 grain .357s. The softer frame material may be distorting.

Sheep Have Wool
11-28-2014, 05:34 PM
nyeti how big is your gun vault. My lord I want to come by and play.

I always envisioned it like that scene from The Matrix, except it's all S&W revolvers and HKs.

http://www.craigsflagger.net/images/gun-locker.gif

Tamara
11-28-2014, 06:00 PM
A square-butt 3" 36-1...

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag421/Tamara_Keel/36-1_zps211f7e4e.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/Tamara_Keel/media/36-1_zps211f7e4e.jpg.html)

Wheeler
11-28-2014, 06:03 PM
As I remember Keith & Skelton were using N frame guns when they worked up their loads.

125 Grain. 357 rounds are historically hard on guns @ 1400 fps, I can just imagine how hard 1800 fps rounds would be. The only L frame sized gun that I heard would stand a steady diet of 125 Grain factory .357 were the GP100s. I wonder how one would hold up shooting 1800 fps handloads.

Of course you have the same issue with .40 S&W in loads of 150 grains and lighter beating up guns.

To me it appears screaming light weight bullets are just hard on guns.

As far as I know, you are correct. I was in the process of getting a GP-100 for the same purpose and had started working up the load and wanted to test it. It was the only load I have ever shot through my 686 that made my hands hurt. Six were enough. As I mentioned earlier, the Model 28 digests them with ease but I've gone back to running a heavier bullet, mainly because of long term use and potential throat erosion, as well as my belief there's nothing i can do with a 125 grain bullet that I cant do with a 158 grain bullet. I'm now tinkering with casting and have the molds and most everything else but the resizing die. The goal is to have a load that I could carry in the vehicle that would work as a general, all-purpose load for both revolver and rifle. I've reached the conclusion (the hard way, as I come to most of my conclusions) that the idea of commonality in caliber with a rifle and pistol is a fallacy. If one had ammo that utilizes the full potential of the rifle, it's too hot for the pistol. If one has ammo that's suitable for the pistol, the increase in velocity is not great enough out of a rifle to justify (to me) the extra weight and lengthened sight radius. My initial conclusions are to have;
1:Two different loads, one for rifle and one for pistol. This leads in to the question of "Why not carry a real rifle caliber?"
2:Carry enough pistol to handle the hotter, rifle loaded rounds. This is where the Model 28 comes in.
3:Opt for a variety of ammo that covers all the potential bases. This is a variation of the first conclusion in which there's a mix of light and heavy loads.
4:If I move up into a real rifle caliber, is it prudent to maintain the same caliber? A rifle chambered in .358 Winchester would fit the bill nicely, preferably a BLR take-down. This is blatant gun justification. :-)

There's no doubt in my mind that I'm over thinking this issue but we all need a hobby. :-)

Eli
11-28-2014, 06:43 PM
Recently picked this Smith M&P up off of Armslist. At some point in time it was nickled and the barrel was cut down to 3". I have some wood grips coming in the mail....will post up a new pic when they get here.


http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/ceelfi/armslist2.jpg

LSP972
11-28-2014, 07:19 PM
I'd be interested to hear what problems they had in more detail. I just compared my 627 to one of my 686s and the forcing cone *is* thicker, though I've never heard of an L letting go like a K.



We never had any crack, but they "shot loose" (Wheeler described one of the reasons) almost as quickly as a K frame when fed a lot of "magnums". I got pretty good at stretching yoke barrels and fitting new hands.

This, of course, was AFTER we had to go through the first two batches (120 M-686s) and clean up that execrable floating hand. Gawd, what an abortion that was…


.

LSP972
11-28-2014, 07:30 PM
Not to drift the thread, but :cool:....... Does anybody know if the 586 standard ordinance steel blued version of the 686 exhibit the same problems with hot rounds that it's stainless steel brother did. It was my understanding at the time S&W had to adjust the stainless alloy content in their guns because stainless has a grain and when machined the frame would warp causing too many to be thrown away as unusable. It's one of the reasons their guns will corrode sooner than most stainless products. It always seemed to me that Smith's stainless was a bit soft. I actually have a few guns in inventory that the side plate deformities like a stick of soft butter that you ran a curved object over. I have never seen that with blued guns. This "may" be why a 686 doesn't hold up under a steady diet of 125 grain .357s. The softer frame material may be distorting.

While you're right about the soft stainless, the reason is that the original grades of stainless used in the M-60 (which were HARD, to prevent galling; S&W did their due diligence before making a gun out of the stuff) tore up tooling at an alarming rate. That is, the hard alloy wore out the cutting tools used to shape parts much faster than they were accustomed to.

So they began reducing the nickle (and raising the iron) content of the alloy to make the tooling last longer, and of course went too far. The result was rusting stainless guns. They eventually found a happy medium; my two late 70s-vintage issue M-66s were somewhat abused and neglected throughout their service life, and I have never seen a hint of corrosion. In fact, the 2.5" example lives in my bathroom, and the only attention it gets is when I change out the ammunition every six months or so. That's a pretty humid environment.

Perhaps Bill Riehl can chime in here, but it is my understanding that standard chrome-moly steel as used in blue guns is pretty soft, as "hard" steel goes. IMO, the beefier parts of the N frame are what makes it handle hot magnums better. But that is a semi-educated guess.

.

Jeep
11-28-2014, 07:45 PM
I saw a thread elsewhere where a guy had shot 75,000 wadcutters through his 27. Certainly not full power stuff, but sounds like a lot of fun shooting, and perhaps something to aspire to.

Does anyone here remember back in the mid-70's when the gun mags were full of stories of .357's blowing up while shooting wadcutters and there were all sort of theories why it was happening? I'm not sure that they ever decided what the cause of these alleged explosions were, but for a while people would go white if you fed WCs into a .357, convinced that they were watching a hand grenade being set to explode.

LSP972
11-28-2014, 08:02 PM
Jeep, the cause was detonation brought on by small amounts of "fast" powder (i.e., Bullseye). The powder lays along the bottom side of the cartridge case, and in some cases the flash from the primer causes the powder to ignite all at once rather than burn progessively.

The standard target load for the 148gr wadcutter in a .38 Special case was 2.7 grains of Bullseye. That isn't much.

I've heard of this happening in a couple of crime labs as well. Those of us who use a water tank to capture bullets must "download" high velocity rifle rounds, to prevent the bullets from blowing up too much for comparison purposes. The standard recipe is a half-load; pull the bullet, weigh the powder charge, put half of the powder back in, then fire the reassembled cartridge (one at a time, naturally, rodding the bore between each shot).

It takes no imagination to see where, in some calibers, half of the specified powder charge will lay along the side of the cartridge case and is subject to the primer jet flashing over the powder instead of INTO it… causing it to detonate instead of burn. So, from Day One at the lab, I always stuff a bit of toilet paper over the half-load to keep the powder compressed against the flash hole.

This caused a bit of comment from the senior examiner, who blandly told me he had had been "doing this for 30 years without an issue". He thought it amusing that I was concerned about the detonation angle. This guy is no duffer- he's a magician on the scope- and I no longer argue with folks about much of anything. I did tell him, however (after getting him to admit that it COULD happen) that I have seen a Python and a K-38 with the top strap blown off and half of the cylinder missing.

So, he goes his way, and I go mine…:D

.

rsa-otc
11-28-2014, 08:07 PM
While you're right about the soft stainless, the reason is that the original grades of stainless used in the M-60 (which were HARD, to prevent galling; S&W did their due diligence before making a gun out of the stuff) tore up tooling at an alarming rate. That is, the hard alloy wore out the cutting tools used to shape parts much faster than they were accustomed to.

So they began reducing the nickle (and raising the iron) content of the alloy to make the tooling last longer, and of course went too far. The result was rusting stainless guns. They eventually found a happy medium; my two late 70s-vintage issue M-66s were somewhat abused and neglected throughout their service life, and I have never seen a hint of corrosion. In fact, the 2.5" example lives in my bathroom, and the only attention it gets is when I change out the ammunition every six months or so. That's a pretty humid environment.

Perhaps Bill Riehl can chime in here, but it is my understanding that standard chrome-moly steel as used in blue guns is pretty soft, as "hard" steel goes. IMO, the beefier parts of the N frame are what makes it handle hot magnums better. But that is a semi-educated guess.

.

I would have swore I read about the grain issue causing the change in nickel content. But since the M-60 was supposed to be the first J frame factory rated for +p ammo I am sure you are probably right. I further remember/understood the reason that Ruger didn't seem to have the same issues was that their frames were investment casted and S&W used forged frames.

I remember galling being an issue with the autos and I thought they fought that by using with different grades of stainless for the frame and slide. Of course that info came from the gun rags of the time just like the info on grain in the stainless.

rsa-otc
11-28-2014, 08:18 PM
Does anyone here remember back in the mid-70's when the gun mags were full of stories of .357's blowing up while shooting wadcutters and there were all sort of theories why it was happening? I'm not sure that they ever decided what the cause of these alleged explosions were, but for a while people would go white if you fed WCs into a .357, convinced that they were watching a hand grenade being set to explode.

I had someone I use to shoot with loose a nice K-38 to Bullseye under a wadcutter. Like LSP972 described to much space in the case with it's resulting issues. The use of the longer .357 case only makes it more likely to happen. People would try it anyway trying to reduce the distance the bullet had to jump between the case and the forcing cone hoping for an increase in accuracy.

Dagga Boy
11-28-2014, 09:04 PM
Oh, I forgot.......Eli, If you ever want to part with that M&P, let me know. That thing is kind of old skool cool.

Eli
11-28-2014, 09:12 PM
Oh, I forgot.......Eli, If you ever want to part with that M&P, let me know. That thing is kind of old skool cool.

Yes sir, will do.

The best part is that through a series of trades I ended up swapping a Windham Weaponry MPC AR-15 for the 3" Smith AND a Gen4 Glock 33.
I had $390 in the WW MPC.

Dagga Boy
11-28-2014, 09:33 PM
Yes sir, will do.

The best part is that through a series of trades I ended up swapping a Windham Weaponry MPC AR-15 for the 3" Smith AND a Gen4 Glock 33.
I had $390 in the WW MPC.

Nice! If we do some business, you'll come out ahead........and not have a piece of crap WW.

Eli
11-28-2014, 09:47 PM
........and not have a piece of crap WW.

lol.

;)

LSP972
11-28-2014, 11:05 PM
People would try it anyway trying to reduce the distance the bullet had to jump between the case and the forcing cone hoping for an increase in accuracy.

A secondary reason was to make speedloaders more efficient (longer overall cartridge length), along with more efficient extraction (i.e., lessened opportunity to get a shorter .38 case stuck under the extractor star), and last but not least, easier clean-up. The triple-damned "wadcutter ring", which was a build-up of lead in the tenth of an inch between the mouth of a .38 Special case and the chamber step in a .357 revolver, was a collossal PITA to get out if you didn't religiously scrub it out frequently. The Lewis tool helped, but I spent many minutes with a .45 bore brush, on a cut-off S&W cleaning rod chucked into an electric drill, getting that ring out of my first Eversull PPC bull gun… which I foolishly had him build out of a nice 4" M-19.

I never made THAT mistake again…

.

Malamute
11-29-2014, 12:09 AM
We never had any crack, but they "shot loose" (Wheeler described one of the reasons) almost as quickly as a K frame when fed a lot of "magnums". I got pretty good at stretching yoke barrels and fitting new hands.

This, of course, was AFTER we had to go through the first two batches (120 M-686s) and clean up that execrable floating hand. Gawd, what an abortion that was…


.

Thanks for commenting on that, I was hoping you'd see it.

jh9
11-29-2014, 07:57 AM
We never had any crack, but they "shot loose" (Wheeler described one of the reasons) almost as quickly as a K frame when fed a lot of "magnums". I got pretty good at stretching yoke barrels and fitting new hands.

This, of course, was AFTER we had to go through the first two batches (120 M-686s) and clean up that execrable floating hand. Gawd, what an abortion that was…


.

Interesting. Thanks for the perspective. I've only had to retime one of the three...but three is a much smaller sample size than 100+.

LSP972
11-29-2014, 09:04 AM
Recently picked this Smith M&P up off of Armslist. At some point in time it was nickled and the barrel was cut down to 3". I have some wood grips coming in the mail....will post up a new pic when they get here.


http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/ceelfi/armslist2.jpg

A beautiful five-screw, Eli. I really like those old knob-end ejector rods. That one looks pristine, too. Whoever nickled it apparently knew what they were doing. If I ran across something like that, I would be hard-pressed to pass it up.

Nice score.

.

Dagga Boy
11-29-2014, 09:32 AM
A beautiful five-screw, Eli. I really like those old knob-end ejector rods. That one looks pristine, too. Whoever nickled it apparently knew what they were doing. If I ran across something like that, I would be hard-pressed to pass it up.

Nice score.

.

Dude, stop, it has a home waiting in "the safe". How about a little help here pal.;)

LSP972
11-29-2014, 09:34 AM
Dude, stop, it has a home waiting in "the safe". How about a little help here pal.;)

Worried about me cock-blocking you, bud?:cool:

You're getting greedy, and that never ends well…:D

.

rsa-otc
11-29-2014, 09:52 AM
Nice gun Eli.

I truly miss the old time Smiths. I always felt the best of the breed so to speak were the ones that did away with the top screw by the hammer but retained the cylinder lock spring retaining screw up in front of the trigger guard. My father's old K-38 was like that and sweet action to boot. Won a couple of PPC state class titles working my way up to master class with that gun.

Smith & Wesson please take note, firing pins should be located on the hammer and there should be no lock in the action. And while I know the newer sleeved barrels are supposed to be better it's just wrong.

Jeep
11-29-2014, 10:16 AM
I had someone I use to shoot with loose a nice K-38 to Bullseye under a wadcutter. Like LSP972 described to much space in the case with it's resulting issues. The use of the longer .357 case only makes it more likely to happen. People would try it anyway trying to reduce the distance the bullet had to jump between the case and the forcing cone hoping for an increase in accuracy.

I figured there would be folks here who would know the answer. I had always assumed that we were dealing with handloads in which someone forgot to put the powder in, resulting in a bullet just slightly down the barrel and a second bullet contacting it. However, I had not realized that people were loading target wadcutters in .357 mag cases. (Now, I did know a lot of people who loaded hollow based wadcutters backwards in a .357 mag case, but they always loaded to a pretty maximum charge. The leading was phenomenal, as was their effect on groundhogs, but I doubt they penetrated too far).

LSP972
11-29-2014, 11:05 AM
I figured there would be folks here who would know the answer. I had always assumed that we were dealing with handloads in which someone forgot to put the powder in, resulting in a bullet just slightly down the barrel and a second bullet contacting it. However, I had not realized that people were loading target wadcutters in .357 mag cases. (Now, I did know a lot of people who loaded hollow based wadcutters backwards in a .357 mag case, but they always loaded to a pretty maximum charge. The leading was phenomenal, as was their effect on groundhogs, but I doubt they penetrated too far).

Jeep, the detonation issue was also present in .38 Special cases.

The "wadcutters in .357 cases" wasn't that prevalent; a lot of folks, like me, tried it and discovered the drawbacks out-weighed the advantages.

OTOH, loading Speer hollow base wadcutters backwards, over a healthy charge of Unique or 230P (pre-cursor to 231), WAS quite prevalent in some circles; in both .38 and .357 brass.

.

UNK
11-29-2014, 11:20 AM
What is the knife in the upper right corner.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag421/Tamara_Keel/CCWwheels_zps1b2ec6b0.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/Tamara_Keel/media/CCWwheels_zps1b2ec6b0.jpg.html)

PC640 and PC13, from back in the Liebenberg/French Performance Center days...

Dagga Boy
11-29-2014, 12:22 PM
In today's edition of "where does he get this stuff", behold.....the mega rare S&W Model 10-10 3" Brazilian. This is an in the box commercial overrun example. Tam will appreciate the grips that further up the "I hate you" ante.

rsa-otc
11-29-2014, 12:43 PM
In today's edition of "where does he get this stuff", behold.....the mega rare S&W Model 10-10 3" Brazilian. This is an in the box commercial overrun example. Tam will appreciate the grips that further up the "I hate you" ante.

OK now that's cool! Is that a 19's barrel? And where DO you find these jewels.

Dagga Boy
11-29-2014, 12:50 PM
OK now that's cool! Is that a 19's barrel? And where DO you find these jewels.

Nope, that is a 100% factory gun. I "think" they were based on the fixed sight Model 19's done for the French, but the Brazilians wanted the .38.

Where do I get this stuff........addiction is a curse, and the internet is a horrible enabler. This is the kind of stuff I used to prowl gun shows for.

Malamute
11-29-2014, 01:07 PM
Nope, that is a 100% factory gun. I "think" they were based on the fixed sight Model 19's done for the French, but the Brazilians wanted the .38.

Where do I get this stuff........addiction is a curse, and the internet is a horrible enabler. This is the kind of stuff I used to prowl gun shows for.


No kidding.

Really really like that Brazilian model, including the spurious hammer.

For some reason, I can envision that gun with diamond RB service grips and a grip adapter.

Dagga Boy
11-29-2014, 01:11 PM
No kidding.

Really really like that Brazilian model, including the spurious hammer.

For some reason, I can envision that gun with diamond RB service grips and a grip adapter.

I have the diamond RB's and the adaptor as well in the box. Those factory Banana Targets just feel great. Why Smith didn't build a zillion of them is baffling.

Malamute
11-29-2014, 01:17 PM
Cool.

It makes sense to leave it alone, as its a collectible rare gun. I recall seeing the banana grips for sale here and there back in the day, but its been a while.

In my case, it would be something I cobbled together. I happen to have a spare 19 barrel that could be cut, if I stumbled across a workable donor gun. Really like the thin barrel guns also, like the nickel one posted earlier.

Dagga Boy
11-29-2014, 02:06 PM
I am going to take the little 10-5 with the standard barrel and Nill's with me to Phoenix this week and likely drop it at Robar. Of all the ones I posted, it is really the most likely to get carried. For a 250.00 initial investment, it has been a good little shooter.

My revolvers are really my sort of fun guns these days rather than daily carry hardware, but I have been driving around with it as a car gun a bunch lately as I have been wearing heavier clothing. I sort of have to make excuses to carry them, but I have been trying. The more time I spend to doing dry-practice with the 686SSR has led to a bigger appreciation for all my cool revolvers.

Jeep
11-29-2014, 04:16 PM
In today's edition of "where does he get this stuff", behold.....the mega rare S&W Model 10-10 3" Brazilian. This is an in the box commercial overrun example. Tam will appreciate the grips that further up the "I hate you" ante.

That is an extremely nice revolver. I can't hate someone for having great taste in firearms or for building a collection like yours, (I am, of course, envious), but I will ask that you keep posting photos for the rest of us to drool over. They are very drool-worthy revolvers.

Dagga Boy
11-29-2014, 05:53 PM
I warned you guys about me ever learning how to post pictures.

theJanitor
11-29-2014, 06:16 PM
I warned you guys about me ever learning how to post pictures.

Photobucket can upload pics in bulk :cool:

Lon
11-29-2014, 07:00 PM
Photobucket can upload pics in bulk :cool:

Don't tell him that. He's torturing us enough as it is. The 10-10 rocks. I seriously lust after the shrouded 3" Smiths.

Tamara
11-29-2014, 07:35 PM
Was a guy at the show today with a 2.5" 66, a pair of 3" 13s, a 3" 65, and a cherry 3" 10, and not a one of 'em was less than half a grand. There was a beautiful early 28-2 at another table with a $650 sticker, which is a hundred bucks more than I paid for that likely-unfired 27-2. I'm priced slap out of the Hand Ejector market.

I'm standing pat on my H.E. holdings and looking into undiscovered Smith country: Small-frame top-breaks and 3rd Gen autos.

Lon
11-29-2014, 08:03 PM
Was a guy at the show today with a 2.5" 66, a pair of 3" 13s, a 3" 65, and a cherry 3" 10, and not a one of 'em was less than half a grand.

I've been stalking GB for 3" K frames. They go for ridiculous amounts.

Malamute
11-29-2014, 08:13 PM
I'm standing pat on my H.E. holdings and looking into undiscovered Smith country: Small-frame top-breaks and 3rd Gen autos.

The little 32 hand ejectors are still semi-sane aren't they?

I think a 3 1/4" one would make a dandy OMG and grouse shooter. Would be cheap and fun to shoot also.

theJanitor
11-29-2014, 08:22 PM
I've been stalking GB for 3" K frames. They go for ridiculous amounts.

I was looking for a 19 for a project. Then my smith said we should go L or N frame. So I started looking for a 25 in 45LC. DB recently talked me into a 28, but I'm having a hard time swallowing these prices. I thought having spent the better part of two decades looking for custom 1911's that I couldn't be sticker-shocked. But I'm once again very wrong

Tamara
11-29-2014, 08:35 PM
To quote Shootin' Buddy: "How much should S&W revolvers cost? $200!" :D

Tamara
11-29-2014, 08:37 PM
The little 32 hand ejectors are still semi-sane aren't they?

Prewar .32 and .38 I-frames are probably the Final Frontier of cheap Hand Ejectors. Even garden-variety 4" 10s with carry wear are trading for three-and-a-half to four bills these days, it seems.
(And lord help you if the barrel's pinned; they think that means it's a Registered Magnum...)

Wheeler
11-29-2014, 08:38 PM
The little 32 hand ejectors are still semi-sane aren't they?

I think a 3 1/4" one would make a dandy OMG and grouse shooter. Would be cheap and fun to shoot also.

That sort of depends. The K frames are crazy expensive. Those that got them usually know what folks will pay. The J frames are a little better, I see the 30's and 31's listing for $450ish and either dropping to the $350 range or getting removed from the market. The I frames are all over the place. I've seen prices from $250 all the way up to $800 and not a lot of difference in quality. I'm not a fan of the top-breaks so I can't comment on those much.
I'm still holding out for a 1905 Savage but that's a conversation for a different thread. :-)

Malamute
11-29-2014, 08:44 PM
Prewar .32 and .38 I-frames are probably the Final Frontier of cheap Hand Ejectors. Even garden-variety 4" 10s with carry wear are trading for three-and-a-half to four bills these days, it seems.
(And lord help you if the barrel's pinned; they think that means it's a Registered Magnum...)

I think the I frame 32 Hand ejectors are just insanely cute for some reason, like an early pre-war 10 that was washed in hot water and shrank.

I'm seeing them in the Shooters Bibles much later than I thought they made them. I came into a pile of the SB's from '43, and '50-64 or so.

Tamara
11-29-2014, 09:02 PM
I think the I frame 32 Hand ejectors are just insanely cute for some reason, like an early pre-war 10 that was washed in hot water and shrank.

Absolutely agree (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2007/05/sunday-smith-3.html). :)

Lon
11-29-2014, 09:03 PM
I was looking for a 19 for a project. Then my smith said we should go L or N frame. So I started looking for a 25 in 45LC. DB recently talked me into a 28, but I'm having a hard time swallowing these prices. I thought having spent the better part of two decades looking for custom 1911's that I couldn't be sticker-shocked. But I'm once again very wrong

Was just on GunsAmerica. Several 28s below $700. A couple below $600.

Tamara
11-29-2014, 09:07 PM
Was just on GunsAmerica. Several 28s below $700.

Like I said, I saw a very nice early 4" 28-2 today for $650. If I hadn't paid $550 for an unfired pre-Bangor Punta 27-2, I might have been more excited. :( (This is me, getting old... :o )

Dagga Boy
11-29-2014, 09:25 PM
Many of these are getting nuts on pricing. You should see the rare version of the 686 SSR in .38 Super with the unfluted cylinder....worse than the 10mm guns. The older autos are often where the bargains are to be found. Recently had to talk myself down off a 645.......the Miami Vice influence is still strong.

Tamara
11-29-2014, 10:26 PM
MRecently had to talk myself down off a 645.......the Miami Vice influence is still strong.

I came this close to a 645 today at the show where I snagged the 469; three mags, super clean, and under five bills... but I couldn't pass up the Mini Gun for a hunnert bucks less.

Tom Fineis
11-30-2014, 02:03 AM
You guys are killing me. I am reviving my wheelgun love this year after getting bored with tupperware gun version 385.2 being mostly the same as all versions before it.

I bought, shot a little, and sold a 2.5" Model 66 years ago for prices I dare not post publicly. I regret it often.

I'm to the point that I kind of want to bastardize my Mod 64 snubby into a 3" gun. Is it as easy as sourcing a barrel and longer ejector rod? There is a local shop that has a large volume of Smith take off parts.

Seems like a fair bit of work to gain an inch (that's what he said), but I still want to.

Lon
11-30-2014, 02:30 AM
Here ya go. $40 64 4" barrel u can have cut down:http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=455311477

Tom Fineis
11-30-2014, 02:46 AM
Here ya go. $40 64 4" barrel u can have cut down:http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=455311477

That is the shop I was speaking of. What's a reasonable rate to cut, re-sight, and swap a barrel?

He has this one too, albeit quite a bit more money. I wonder which option is the most cost effective overall.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=454934016

Wheeler
11-30-2014, 08:43 AM
After looking at the price on that barrel I do believe I'll go ahead and but that 3" Model 64 a buddy has for $300-350ish.

serialsolver
11-30-2014, 11:01 AM
Folks, this thread is what pushed this long time lurker to join so I could see all the pics. It has been worth it. If I can figure out how later I'll try to put up a pic of my 696.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lon
11-30-2014, 11:11 AM
That is the shop I was speaking of. What's a reasonable rate to cut, re-sight, and swap a barrel?

He has this one too, albeit quite a bit more money. I wonder which option is the most cost effective overall.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=454934016

I saw that. Not sure that 65 barrel will work on a 64. From my understanding, a 64 barrel can be made to work in a 65 since it can be cut down near the forcing cone, but not vice versa. I started a thread the other day trying to figure all that out. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

Dagga Boy
11-30-2014, 11:46 AM
Best bet these days is if you want a 3", just buy one. Even the beater trade ins can get rehabbed at a variety of places.

Tamara
11-30-2014, 12:24 PM
Yup. The more common variants of 3" 10s and 64s turn up fairly regularly at not-absolutely-crazy prices (think "used Glock" rather than "new SIG").

Were I buying the gun to shoot, rather than collect, I'd jump at that. I'm only leery as a collector because the more common variants of postwar Smith have all the hallmarks of a "bubble" right now. All the money that's been priced out of the high-end Smith market has been running around for the past five years looking for somewhere to land, and it's found common postwar Hand Ejectors. When grungy 4" Model 10s, quite possibly the single most common make and model of handgun on the planet, are being traded like they're Ken Griffey Jr. rookie cards or something, it's got all the earmarks of a market that's going to have to have a settling-out soon.

Tom Fineis
11-30-2014, 05:42 PM
After looking at the price on that barrel I do believe I'll go ahead and but that 3" Model 64 a buddy has for $300-350ish.

You buy it for $300 and I'll buy it for $350. Appreciate your help! ;)

Seriously, anyone who comes across a 3" K Frame Smith in 38 or 357 around $400 please PM me a link. I just bought a trade in 2" snubby because I think those are cool too, but 3" is what I really want.

Lon
11-30-2014, 06:03 PM
You buy it for $300 and I'll buy it for $350. Appreciate your help! ;)

Seriously, anyone who comes across a 3" K Frame Smith in 38 or 357 around $400 please PM me a link. I just bought a trade in 2" snubby because I think those are cool too, but 3" is what I really want.

Haven't seen one that cheap in awhile. If I do, it'll end up in my safe in a heartbeat :cool:

Tom Fineis
11-30-2014, 06:07 PM
4" trade ins have been going under $300. Hard to pay an extra $200 or so for one inch difference, hence my curiosity at cutting down a barrel. I like projects to tinker on anyway.

LSP972
11-30-2014, 06:25 PM
I saw that. Not sure that 65 barrel will work on a 64. From my understanding, a 64 barrel can be made to work in a 65 since it can be cut down near the forcing cone, but not vice versa. I started a thread the other day trying to figure all that out. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in.

You are correct to proceed cautiously. There are several critical issues to deal with when swapping barrels on revolvers. And BE SURE your mechanic knows of them, and has done it before on S&W guns.

I'm a pretty fair S&W mechanic… yet I would not even attempt a barrel change, because I have practically no experience at that. OTOH, I have access to a fellow who is a wizard at all things S&W. Last year, I had him swap the 4" shrouded barrel on a beater M-66 for a 2" skinny barrel from an M-64. It took him over two hours, and was a lot more involved than I had thought.

DB is right; unless you've got a very experienced mechanic standing by to do the work- for free-, you're better off just buying a three-inch gun.

.

JRB
11-30-2014, 06:51 PM
This thread is as agonizing as it is beautiful. Thank you all for sharing the pictures and stories.

If a 4-6in thread starts I'll have a humble but interesting 4-screw 4in model 28 to share.

In the meantime, I'm going to try my best to un-see that Model 27-2 Tam posted on the first page, because I know it's going to hurt for a long time trying to find one of my own.

Jeep
11-30-2014, 07:40 PM
Best bet these days is if you want a 3", just buy one. Even the beater trade ins can get rehabbed at a variety of places.

3" S&W's have dried up where I live (East Coast) for the past two or three years. Four inch Model 10's used to be all over the place and cheap, but I haven't seen one in months, and the last I saw carried a ridiculous price. Maybe everyone is selling on the Internet, now--I don't know--but buying a 3" Smith isn't so easy around here anymore and 4" ones are getting more difficult to find.

Al T.
11-30-2014, 07:50 PM
M151, oops, sorry, Jeep is right for the Southeast. I just watched a very nice M65 three inch go for $653.00 bucks om Gunbroker. :eek:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=454228155

Stephanie B
11-30-2014, 08:44 PM
Only 3" Smith I have is a 696.

Last week, I strolled into a LGS and saw that they had a pretty nice 4" 10-5 for $275. It checked out OK, I unlimbered the plastic card of indebtedness faster than I thought possible. :D

serialsolver
11-30-2014, 09:21 PM
this is my 696. it now has Hogue batam grips on it.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee179/serialsolver/Lframes003.jpg (http://s233.photobucket.com/user/serialsolver/media/Lframes003.jpg.html)

when I got this m13 it had a 4in barrel and square but. I cut the barrel to 3in dovetailed a 1911 front sight and round but it. my son now has it. I have a 4in m64 i'm now thinking about cutting it to 3in.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee179/serialsolver/m13001.jpg (http://s233.photobucket.com/user/serialsolver/media/m13001.jpg.html)

Wheeler
11-30-2014, 09:36 PM
this is my 696. it now has Hogue batam grips on it.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee179/serialsolver/Lframes003.jpg (http://s233.photobucket.com/user/serialsolver/media/Lframes003.jpg.html)

when I got this m13 it had a 4in barrel and square but. I cut the barrel to 3in dovetailed a 1911 front sight and round but it. my son now has it. I have a 4in m64 i'm now thinking about cutting it to 3in.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee179/serialsolver/m13001.jpg (http://s233.photobucket.com/user/serialsolver/media/m13001.jpg.html)

Nice work on the model 13!

I'm especially jealous of the 696.

serialsolver
11-30-2014, 10:49 PM
Wheeler, thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tom Fineis
12-01-2014, 12:28 PM
when I got this m13 it had a 4in barrel and square but. I cut the barrel to 3in dovetailed a 1911 front sight and round but it. my son now has it. I have a 4in m64 i'm now thinking about cutting it to 3in.

Do you mind sharing your process and/or tips for doing that job?

Gary1911A1
12-01-2014, 12:36 PM
Have a three inch round butted 64 and a 686 CS-1 I got years ago. Great revolvers.

Jeep
12-01-2014, 02:58 PM
M151, oops, sorry, Jeep is right for the Southeast. I just watched a very nice M65 three inch go for $653.00 bucks om Gunbroker. :eek:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=454228155

That's "M151A1."

Tamara
12-01-2014, 05:56 PM
You are correct to proceed cautiously. There are several critical issues to deal with when swapping barrels on revolvers. And BE SURE your mechanic knows of them, and has done it before on S&W guns.

I'm a pretty fair S&W mechanic… yet I would not even attempt a barrel change, because I have practically no experience at that. OTOH, I have access to a fellow who is a wizard at all things S&W. Last year, I had him swap the 4" shrouded barrel on a beater M-66 for a 2" skinny barrel from an M-64. It took him over two hours, and was a lot more involved than I had thought.

DB is right; unless you've got a very experienced mechanic standing by to do the work- for free-, you're better off just buying a three-inch gun.

^^^What he said. Swapping barrels is right on the borderline between Armorer and Gunsmith. I'd want to know a dude's resume before I let him do surgery like that on my gat.

Wheeler
12-01-2014, 06:08 PM
There's several folks on the S&W forum that talk about taking a model 17 or 48 and converting them to .32 Mag and .327 mag. Different dimensions and all but there are still folks out there that know how to do it.

Tamara
12-01-2014, 06:47 PM
There's several folks on the S&W forum that talk about taking a model 17 or 48 and converting them to .32 Mag and .327 mag. Different dimensions and all but there are still folks out there that know how to do it.

Quite a few, actually. There are also quite a few more who think they can. ;)

Wheeler
12-01-2014, 07:32 PM
Quite a few, actually. There are also quite a few more who think they can. ;)

Of that I have no doubt. I seriously considered building a .327 on a K frame several times and might still do so but the big holdup for me is finding a reputable gunsmith that I can afford. :-)

Malamute
12-01-2014, 08:30 PM
Of that I have no doubt. I seriously considered building a .327 on a K frame several times and might still do so but the big holdup for me is finding a reputable gunsmith that I can afford. :-)

There were some older ones built as 32-20's. I've seen parts also, perhaps a 32-20 cylinder from the guy linked for the barrel?

Tamara
12-01-2014, 08:48 PM
A dual-cylinder .327 Federal/.32 WCF would make me all tingly and stuff.

LSP972
12-01-2014, 08:52 PM
There are also quite a few more who think they can. ;)

A-yup.

.

Wheeler
12-01-2014, 09:44 PM
There were some older ones built as 32-20's. I've seen parts also, perhaps a 32-20 cylinder from the guy linked for the barrel?

I don't know that the older frames would hold up to the .327 pressure. The thread I was thinking of is here; http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1980-present/260686-project-616-a.html

Basically a model 66 frame with a 617 barrel and cylinder bored out to the appropriate diameter and fitted for cylinder gap and timing.

Another guy used a 16-4 barrel and a Model 17 frame and cylinder.

So forth and so on.

From my research, Bowen is the place to go...and pay for having this conversion done. I'd be ecstatic if anyone has alternative recommendations.

Dagga Boy
12-01-2014, 09:50 PM
On anything like that, if the guy doing it wasn't named Hamilton Bowen, I would be a little worried. Of course the day I get enough money for some redundant organs, I'll be sending him a Colt SAA frame, and it will be snub in .45 Colt, or a Heavy Duty converted to .45 Colt.

Tom Fineis
12-01-2014, 10:10 PM
What's the consensus on 327 mag? I shot one years ago when it was pretty new to the market but didn't appreciate revolvers then like I do now. 6 rounds in a 3" SP101 would be neat.

Adding another (expensive) caliber is something I'm much less excited about these days than I used to be.

Wheeler
12-01-2014, 10:31 PM
What's the consensus on 327 mag? I shot one years ago when it was pretty new to the market but didn't appreciate revolvers then like I do now. 6 rounds in a 3" SP101 would be neat.

Adding another (expensive) caliber is something I'm much less excited about these days than I used to be.

I've yet to get any first hand experience with one, so the opinion I've formed thus far is based on internet research and conversations with folks that own one.

The marketing hype is just that, hype. It's not the equal of a .357 Mag no matter how one massages the data.

As a trail/kit gun it's got a lot of potential. A lot of folks feel it's the equal of and possibly superior to the .32-20 in that regard. I've yet to see any hard data or even talk of how effective the cartridge is on small game.

It's extremely loud.

I'm a fan of .32's. To me it's a natural evolution in the collection. It's also a caliber I'd reload for as what little factory ammo I've seen is pricey. I have a old Hopkins & Allen Falling Block chambered in .22LR that has a worn out chamber. One of these days I'm going to take it to the local custom gunsmith and get an idea of what it would cost to have the barrel bored and a new liner installed and covert it to centerfire, if he thinks it will hold up to the .327 pressures. If so it'll be my very own Rook Rifle. :)

serialsolver
12-02-2014, 09:18 AM
Tom fineis, I cut the barrel with a hack saw. Using muzzle facing and crowning tools bought from brownells I crowned the barrel. A 1911 dovetail front sight .175 high with dove tail file of correct angle for the sight was bought at brownells. the new front sight is measured and the the barrel marked. I use a hack saw to cut several slots were the dove tail goes. I use the hack saw cause it's easier for me to control. Once I have the slots cut then the dremal tool is use to remove the remaining metal in the dove tail. I use files to finish the dove tail for the sight. I use a small level to make sure the dove tail is straight. Once dove tail is done install front sight. Or when the front sight and dove tail file is bought a dove tail cutter can be purchase also. Then the sight, dove tail cutter and pistol frame can be taken to a local machine shop and let them cut the dove tail the you would only have a small amount of filing to do to install the sight. I'll detail the grip later.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

serialsolver
12-02-2014, 05:06 PM
To round the grip I took a pair of round but grips and marked the outline of the grips on the frame. I did not round the front of the grip frame behind the trigger since it would remove part of the serial number. I hack saw the rear corner close to the line then grid close to the line with a bench grinder. Then file to the line and finish with course, medium then fine sand paper. Blue steel is cold blue. Stainless steel medium scotch brite pad to blend. The grips are square but boot grips that are then shaped to the new grip profile and refinished. Hope this helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

theJanitor
12-03-2014, 05:21 PM
I wish someone would start a "I Love 4" Smith Revolvers" thread

Tamara
12-03-2014, 05:58 PM
I wish someone would start a "I Love 4" Smith Revolvers" thread

Imma have fun with that one. And the 5" one!

Dagga Boy
12-03-2014, 06:38 PM
I was just with Jason Burton who is itching for a 4" thread as well. I will make a last 3" post just for Tam and we can start a 4"-6" thread. Here ya go folks........Registered Magnum #40, converteed to a 3.5" Nickel and round butted by Frank Pachmayer.

Wayne Dobbs
12-03-2014, 06:54 PM
And that RM has stories that I wish it could tell...

Malamute
12-03-2014, 06:55 PM
And that RM has stories that I wish it could tell...


No kidding.

Really cool old gun.


Whos going to kick off the 4"-6 1/2" Smith revolver thread?

Wheeler
12-03-2014, 07:27 PM
No kidding.

Really cool old gun.


Whos going to kick off the 4"-6 1/2" Smith revolver thread?

I did. Since I can't keep up with Tamara and nyeti I figured I'd get the first whack in. :-)

coldcase1984
12-03-2014, 09:08 PM
I was just with Jason Burton who is itching for a 4" thread as well. I will make a last 3" post just for Tam and we can start a 4"-6" thread. Here ya go folks........Registered Magnum #40, converteed to a 3.5" Nickel and round butted by Frank Pachmayer.

Dang it Big D, those 3.5-in. N-frame .357s are killin me. All I really want these days are one of those Dick Tracy guns and 2.5 Python, shooter grade, to tickle my old school from now thru dotage. Egad!

Eli
12-03-2014, 10:50 PM
.... I have some wood grips coming in the mail....will post up a new pic when they get here......




Tracking info says that they've been in NY for the last several days. Arrrggh!

They made it from Thailand to the U.S. 3 days after ordering them, but now the USPS is at fault for my 3" Smith wearing goodyears for a week longer than necessary.

Tamara
12-04-2014, 02:48 PM
Raining outside, which is hampering my ability to take fresh pictures for the 4" thread, so I'll just keep contributing to this one... :)

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag421/Tamara_Keel/SampWNumber2s_zpsc1abbb78.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/Tamara_Keel/media/SampWNumber2s_zpsc1abbb78.jpg.html)

S&W Number 2. Barrel shortened to 3.5" and engraved after it left the factory.

BN
12-04-2014, 04:28 PM
2826 Here's my 3 inch Model 10. :)

Wondering Beard
12-04-2014, 04:51 PM
Raining outside, which is hampering my ability to take fresh pictures for the 4" thread, so I'll just keep contributing to this one... :)

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag421/Tamara_Keel/SampWNumber2s_zpsc1abbb78.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/Tamara_Keel/media/SampWNumber2s_zpsc1abbb78.jpg.html)

S&W Number 2. Barrel shortened to 3.5" and engraved after it left the factory.

That is a beauty

JAD
12-04-2014, 06:03 PM
That's really cool, Bill.

Here's my 3 inch Model 10. :)

Dagga Boy
12-04-2014, 09:42 PM
2826 Here's my 3 inch Model 10. :)

That is really awesome. I just dropped mine off at Robar. Should be done by SHOT Show in NP3 and a gold line front sight.

Dagga Boy
12-06-2014, 07:23 PM
Just put this on layaway till I can unload a Beretta 92 to finance it. Lew Horton 629-5 Classic Carry in .44 mag.

Sigfan26
12-06-2014, 07:40 PM
Just put this on layaway till I can unload a Beretta 92 to finance it. Lew Horton 629-5 Classic Carry in .44 mag.

What kind of 92?

Dagga Boy
12-06-2014, 07:43 PM
Standard FS with a set of Crimson trace laser grips and stock grips. Let me know before Tuesday........:cool:

Sigfan26
12-06-2014, 07:47 PM
Standard FS with a set of Crimson trace laser grips and stock grips. Let me know before Tuesday........:cool:

Just curious... The more exotic stuff interests me!

SeriousStudent
12-07-2014, 01:23 AM
Standard FS with a set of Crimson trace laser grips and stock grips. Let me know before Tuesday........:cool:

Let me talk to my nephew, the one you and Wayne trained. He's looking for a Beretta. I was trying to talk him into one of Wilson's. I'll let you know.

Eli
12-09-2014, 05:56 PM
Finally got the grips in...........aaannnndddd, that don't quite fit.

There's a bit of overhang just about everywhere possible. Guess I have a minor wood working problem on my hands now.


http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/ceelfi/mp11.jpg


http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/ceelfi/mp10.jpg


http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/ceelfi/mp12.jpg


Sure does look pretty though.

WDW
12-09-2014, 06:25 PM
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/10mm4me/image_zps38567dc7.jpg (http://s865.photobucket.com/user/10mm4me/media/image_zps38567dc7.jpg.html)
Picked up a 3" 36-1 in nickel not too long ago

Lon
01-19-2015, 05:10 PM
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/xpd54/5F2E0250-6089-4F2A-AD79-FC7A7AA8250A_zpsvcq4zc8r.jpg

3" 64. Bday present for my dad. Had it bead blasted and a trigger job done. just need to sight in the grips before I send it off.

Gary1911A1
01-20-2015, 05:35 PM
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n5/xpd54/5F2E0250-6089-4F2A-AD79-FC7A7AA8250A_zpsvcq4zc8r.jpg

3" 64. Bday present for my dad. Had it bead blasted and a trigger job done. just need to sight in the grips before I send it off.

I like the CYA touch. Nice, I'm sure your Dad will be happy.

LSP972
01-22-2015, 01:39 PM
I like the CYA touch.

That is actually an agency stamp; it stands for California Youth Authority. Lon and I bought ours from the same vendor at the same time.

His was in a lot better shape than mine...:(

.

Gary1911A1
01-22-2015, 04:54 PM
That is actually an agency stamp; it stands for California Youth Authority. Lon and I bought ours from the same vendor at the same time.

His was in a lot better shape than mine...:(

.

You don't have to tell your Dad that though. :D

Dagga Boy
01-25-2015, 09:54 AM
So...on the way home from SHOT show I scored one I have been looking for a long time. Ruger GF33. Made only in the last year of "six" production where 3" Ruger Speed Six barrels were put into Police Service Six frames. I think these are some of the best looking Ruger DA revolvers ever made and total tanks. Plus...the price was like Smiths used to be. Enjoy..

Gary1911A1
01-26-2015, 02:13 PM
Good for you nyeti! I never knew Ruger made that model. Must be rare as I have never seen one. Like the wooden grips too. Enjoy that Ruger.

Dagga Boy
01-26-2015, 03:47 PM
In the late 80's I worked for Ruger's west coast LE distributor and saw numerous 3" Speed Sixes come through and was stupid to not hoard them. The 3" on the Service Six is a great combo. I will likely now try to grab a 2 3/4" Speed Six as a companion as the smaller round butt frame with the slightly shorter barrel was always a very well balanced gun and I have a dear friend who did a ton of good work with one.

jetfire
01-26-2015, 11:10 PM
So...on the way home from SHOT show I scored one I have been looking for a long time. Ruger GF33. Made only in the last year of "six" production where 3" Ruger Speed Six barrels were put into Police Service Six frames. I think these are some of the best looking Ruger DA revolvers ever made and total tanks. Plus...the price was like Smiths used to be. Enjoy..

GOD DAMN IT.

I have been looking for one of those for ages. you weren't kidding about sharing vices.

LHS
01-27-2015, 01:28 AM
A good many years ago, my old man decided that I needed a real S&W wheelgun. So he dug around and bequeathed to me his first off-duty carry piece, a 3" 66-3, along with his DeSantis leather. I still can't claim to be a wheelgun man, but this gun just fits and shoots like a house afire. Plus, there's a good bit of sentimental value in it :)

3023

Dagga Boy
01-27-2015, 07:59 AM
The 3" 66 is one of the guns I really want bad (or a 3" 19). Go ahead and send that. Your dad would want his California translator to have it. I already have the perfect trade in mind..........:cool:

LHS
01-27-2015, 06:01 PM
The 3" 66 is one of the guns I really want bad (or a 3" 19). Go ahead and send that. Your dad would want his California translator to have it. I already have the perfect trade in mind..........:cool:

If it were any old 66 3", I'd be willing to talk. This one, though stays in the family :)

Dagga Boy
01-27-2015, 08:16 PM
If it were any old 66 3", I'd be willing to talk. This one, though stays in the family :)

Yea,but I am like family. Just think, you could have a twin to your dad's .338-06.

LHS
01-27-2015, 08:47 PM
Yea,but I am like family. Just think, you could have a twin to your dad's .338-06.

Crom laughs at your .338-06. He laughs from his mountain, aiming his 9.3x62.

Wayne Dobbs
01-28-2015, 06:12 PM
In the late 80's I worked for Ruger's west coast LE distributor and saw numerous 3" Speed Sixes come through and was stupid to not hoard them. The 3" on the Service Six is a great combo. I will likely now try to grab a 2 3/4" Speed Six as a companion as the smaller round butt frame with the slightly shorter barrel was always a very well balanced gun and I have a dear friend who did a ton of good work with one.

Indeed he did! If that Speed Six could talk...

SeriousStudent
01-28-2015, 09:48 PM
Book, gentlemen.

We need all of you folks to write a book. It would be a great read, and a useful tool to train the newer generations.

Mike Pipes
01-28-2015, 10:02 PM
Book, gentlemen.

We need all of you folks to write a book. It would be a great read, and a useful tool to train the newer generations.

Agreed Bill Agreed.....cya retro

Dagga Boy
01-29-2015, 08:48 AM
No books.......or it would have to be fiction..;-).

Wayne and I had a good revolver day yesterday along with our normal practice. The Ruger was stellar at 25 yards as the front sight was about perfect to center on the bull (literally very X ring capable). However, as the range decreased, the sight disappeared and things got really tough. I am thinking a gold dot or line is needed. The Ruger action is very different on how it loads from the Smiths I have been shooting a lot. With that said, it is very capable. On a side note....Wayne is simply frightening with a .38 service revolver...very frightening. We are getting excited about our NY-1 HiTS home defense guns being built right now, and my enhanced Model 10 3" that is at Robar just waiting for Robbie to finish the magazine photo's.

SeriousStudent
01-30-2015, 10:16 PM
..... We are getting excited about our NY-1 HiTS home defense guns being built right now, ......

Is this something that you might offer to the hoi polloi, sometime down the road?

Totem Polar
01-31-2015, 12:50 AM
We are getting excited about our NY-1 HiTS home defense guns being built right now...

That really does sound intriguing. Spill the beans!

Dagga Boy
01-31-2015, 10:52 AM
That really does sound intriguing. Spill the beans!

Because great minds think alike.......picture your exact gun, but with the awesome fixed sights Heirloom Precision does on them. The HiTS Home Defense Revolver concept is essentially your NY-1.....simple, well built 3-4" .38 special medium frame gun tuned for pure reliability. We just went a little over the top on mine and Wayne's guns for the sights so we can do some solid long range work. We were working Wayne's Model 15 4" at 50 yards last week on a 6" plate. We want to be able to do the same thing with our NY-1's.

rsa-otc
01-31-2015, 11:43 AM
As if waiting to see your and Wayne's revolvers wasn't hard enough. Actually as my eyes aged the only thing I would actually spend money improving on your basic 4" heavy barrel 38 K frame were more prominent sights. It's one of the main reasons I carry an old pencil nose at work even though I like the balance and looks of the heavy barrel better, that front sight is easier to see at speed. I have spent hours thinking about how I would go about it. Can't wait to see how yours comes out.

Totem Polar
01-31-2015, 12:22 PM
^^^That. Sights and user age are the K-Fame's downfall. My curiousity about the HiTS NY-1 project is beyond piqued.

Plus, 3" RB. That's still on the list. :D


....picture your exact gun, but with the awesome fixed sights Heirloom Precision does on them.

As the saying goes: "I'll be in my bunk..."

Totem Polar
01-31-2015, 04:38 PM
OMG: I just went to their site to have a quick peek. [warning] Do not look at this page if, like me, you have a 3" model 65 that needs a bit of tuning anyways... mother of God...

http://www.heirloomprecision.com/revo

Dagga Boy
01-31-2015, 05:53 PM
OMG: I just went to their site to have a quick peek. [warning] Do not look at this page if, like me, you have a 3" model 65 that needs a bit of tuning anyways... mother of God...

http://www.heirloomprecision.com/revo


The price will also give you a heart attack. Mine and Wayne's guns are sort of a one off "proof of concept" thing that Jason is doing for us. The reality is that Heirloom only does full house builds and not piecemeal work. Those 65's are works of art, but they are very expensive and done in the tradition that makes Heirloom what it is. Every crook and crevice of those guns are done to the hilt. They are awesome, but awesome costs money. So.....owning one is on my lottery winning list of things to buy, along with a bunch of stuff I can't afford from Hamilton Bowen. I literally have a Colt SAA frame sitting here waiting to be sent to Hamilton "some day".

Totem Polar
01-31-2015, 06:27 PM
The price will also give you a heart attack.

Your warning comes too late. Fortunately, I recovered. :D

I agree, definitely not cheap. But as you point out, not really expensive either, considering what you get. I've shot enough guns (read: 1911s) stickering well into used Harley Sportster or used Rolex explorer territory to get that. I could consolidate down and send in the 65. The older I get, the less I need anything besides the G17, the G42 and a bunch of wheelies that I actually like. I will definitely await your report on the HiTS project with a lot of interest.

rsa-otc
02-01-2015, 11:10 AM
The price will also give you a heart attack.

Of course after having to take deep breaths and put my head between my knees after viewing the pics on Heirloom's site. I come up and read DB's post above (nothing like waving a red cape in front of a bull there DB) and go and look at the price list. Which resulted with my head between my knees again. LOL

That foolishness aside I think I just found my retirement gun. Now only have to wait 11 years for my retirement. Of course that allows me to track down the perfect gun for the project.

Dagga Boy
02-01-2015, 05:32 PM
That is the point of "Heirloom Precision". They build working Heirloom's. The stuff you can both stake your life on, but built with the intent that your children and grandchildren can also stake theirs on a family treasure....which is both cool and expensive. The Rolex analogy is good. My mothers gold Presidential was passed to my wife when she died. She wore it till she died. My daughter will get it in 9 years and it will likely last her lifetime as well. It cost a lot of money. It is still worth a lot and will always be.

Totem Polar
02-01-2015, 07:35 PM
My mothers gold Presidential was passed to my wife when she died. She wore it till she died. My daughter will get it in 9 years and it will likely last her lifetime as well. It cost a lot of money. It is still worth a lot and will always be.

That's an amazing thing, DB.

Mike Pipes
03-27-2015, 09:46 AM
http://s15.postimg.org/4sk4luhfv/sw64dpfiberoptic2.jpg

http://s30.postimg.org/u0sn7k6qp/sw64dpfiberoptic8.jpg

http://s21.postimg.org/f09id73jb/sw64dpfiberopticside2.jpg

began life as square butt 4" s&w 64-5. Took it to Clark Custom Guns cut it to 3",dovetailed a Novak FO frontsite and regulated the rear sight channel,round butted it to take Eagle Secret Service stocks then bead blasted it. I am carrying it in a Milt Sparks summer special 2 at 1:30 by running my belt thru the front strap and tucking the rear strap behind the first belt loop on 511 cargos................looking forward to the Revolver Round up at Hits....cya retro

Dagga Boy
03-27-2015, 10:13 AM
Very nice Mike. Must be cool to have a neighbor with some good tools.....;-)

Mike Pipes
03-27-2015, 10:29 AM
THANKS,yes way cool........cya soon

Mike Pipes
03-27-2015, 10:33 AM
Very nice Mike. Must be cool to have a neighbor with some good tools.....;-)

price was right too I thought...$420 for total package

45dotACP
03-27-2015, 10:36 AM
That's a sweet looking gun!

Totem Polar
03-27-2015, 10:43 AM
Took it to Clark Custom Guns cut it to 3",dovetailed a Novak FO frontsite and regulated the rear sight channel,round butted it to take Eagle Secret Service stocks then bead blasted it.
Awesome.

Dagga Boy
04-15-2015, 10:07 PM
Just a bump to remind you guys I'm alive...;-)
3" S&W 696 .44 Spl. With Nill Grips.

Dagga Boy
04-18-2015, 09:40 PM
I broke my foot tonight so I can't dig around in the grip bin in the garage for a different set of stocks. Picked it up today. Model 66-3 3". This was a real grail for me. At least I have something nice to dry practice with sitting on the couch.

SeriousStudent
04-19-2015, 12:46 AM
Beautiful pistol. Sorry to hear about your foot.

Need a cane to gimp around with? I have accumulated quite the collection. We could probably find something with grain to match your stocks.

Hizzie
04-19-2015, 02:07 AM
Good looking gun. Heal up fast Darryl. Remember to elevate that sucker to help with swelling. Like really elevate it. Lay on the floor and get it up on the couch or wall. Gravity is your friend. In this case anyway.

Dagga Boy
04-19-2015, 12:39 PM
Beautiful pistol. Sorry to hear about your foot.

Need a cane to gimp around with? I have accumulated quite the collection. We could probably find something with grain to match your stocks.

I have a Starlingear cane from when I was gimped up before.....you'll be impressed.

Thanks Hizzie....Jones fracture....hurts like hell and yes, elevation really helps.

Jeep
04-19-2015, 06:23 PM
I have a Starlingear cane from when I was gimped up before.....you'll be impressed.

Thanks Hizzie....Jones fracture....hurts like hell and yes, elevation really helps.

Very nice 66, but get that foot elevated and keep icing what you can. You don't want that break to become a permanent problem.

Whiskey_Bravo
04-20-2015, 11:19 AM
I have a Starlingear cane from when I was gimped up before.....you'll be impressed.

Thanks Hizzie....Jones fracture....hurts like hell and yes, elevation really helps.

Did the cane come with a one year membership to the Pimp Legion of Doom?

OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor
04-22-2015, 08:58 PM
Show off his new Clark chopped 3" today, so he stopped the grass cutter this morning before he could begin mowing.

Was relieved when the mower dude saw the Big Brown truck, as it gave him an easy exit from Retro's clutches & shenanigans.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/michaelgilster/image.jpg1_zps7et791js.jpg

SeriousStudent
04-22-2015, 09:47 PM
You have the coolest neighbors. I bet your block parties are a blast.

Literally.

OldRunner/CSAT Neighbor
04-22-2015, 10:22 PM
Bill I'm not over as much to train w/ Retro since moving to Longview from Marshall last Dec.
(yes DB, still in a double-wide, just a newer one, have to keep up w/ the ETX trailer park inbred-hipster scrotes)

That said it is def. value added when Jerry or Jim Jr. are getting their own trigger time when we are there as well.

Last yr. during one of Retro's Old School 3G matches, we had Jim Jr. & one of his sons, along w/ Jerry & his brother Donnie in the squad Retro & I were running. Funny how the stars lined up & that occurred, eh Retro?

Dagga Boy
04-23-2015, 11:48 AM
Did the cane come with a one year membership to the Pimp Legion of Doom?

3" Model 66, Nill Grips, Starlingear Hogs Head cane.....I am the big Pimpin Legion of Doom:cool:

Mike Pipes
04-23-2015, 12:09 PM
SCHWEET

breakingtime91
04-23-2015, 12:32 PM
every part of me screams to get a single stack auto loader when I have to move back to cali (wife will probably get stationed there) but another part of me screams to get a 3" or 4" revolver and call it good.

SeriousStudent
04-23-2015, 10:13 PM
Bill I'm not over as much to train w/ Retro since moving to Longview from Marshall last Dec.
(yes DB, still in a double-wide, just a newer one, have to keep up w/ the ETX trailer park inbred-hipster scrotes)

That said it is def. value added when Jerry or Jim Jr. are getting their own trigger time when we are there as well.

Last yr. during one of Retro's Old School 3G matches, we had Jim Jr. & one of his sons, along w/ Jerry & his brother Donnie in the squad Retro & I were running. Funny how the stars lined up & that occurred, eh Retro?

Very cool, that must have been a hoot to just sit and listen.

And now that you are closer to the Metromess, feel free to wander over for some BBQ. :)

I can't wait to see what you fellows bring in October for the Revolver Roundup.

Dagga Boy
04-24-2015, 12:24 AM
I can't wait to see what you fellows bring in October for the Revolver Roundup.

No, I can't wait to see what Retro mike is going to bring. Trailer Park Mike will probably show up with a Glock...;).....with a red dot:p

Mike Pipes
04-24-2015, 05:38 AM
No, I can't wait to see what Retro mike is going to bring. Trailer Park Mike will probably show up with a Glock...;).....with a red dot:p

SO TRUE , Dbl Wide is a polymer baby......cya retro

Mike Pipes
04-24-2015, 05:39 AM
No, I can't wait to see what Retro mike is going to bring. Trailer Park Mike will probably show up with a Glock...;).....with a red dot:p

SO TRUE , Dbl Wide is a polymer baby......cya retro

Dagga Boy
05-01-2015, 05:33 PM
In today's "where does he get such amazing toys" episode. A 66-3 and 66-4 3". Rare and wonderous creatures.
The 66-3 has Nills and nothing I own comes up more natural aligned right to the sights. The grips and balance define perfect for me. It is in a SD Myres Threepersons holster. Very Texas cool.
The 66-4 is wearing Mikes Spegal Combat grips. These will be replaced with VZ G-10's soon. This is considered the best of the last great Smith's. Forged parts, no lock, newer rear sight, all the good enhancements. This will be a carry gun and shooter. It is a super neat gun.

Tooln
05-01-2015, 07:12 PM
Y'all are bad for my cash flow, I just quit buying a month ago after 2 J frame acquisitions. Now I'm gonna have to go looking tomorrow... Nyeti, nice collection, same really to everyone!

SeriousStudent
05-01-2015, 08:08 PM
In today's "where does he get such amazing toys" episode. A 66-3 and 66-4 3". Rare and wonderous creatures.
The 66-3 has Nills and nothing I own comes up more natural aligned right to the sights. The grips and balance define perfect for me. It is in a SD Myres Threepersons holster. Very Texas cool.
The 66-4 is wearing Mikes Spegal Combat grips. These will be replaced with VZ G-10's soon. This is considered the best of the last great Smith's. Forged parts, no lock, newer rear sight, all the good enhancements. This will be a carry gun and shooter. It is a super neat gun.

Are you bringing a few drool-worthy toys to class tomorrow?

Just to give us commoners dreams and aspirations?

Dagga Boy
05-01-2015, 09:03 PM
Of course....:D

Jeep
05-01-2015, 09:10 PM
Ok, but you still didn't tell us, where do you get such amazing toys?

(By the way, I think only old guys like me understand the phrase "super neat," which they are indeed).

Dagga Boy
05-01-2015, 09:17 PM
Ok, but you still didn't tell us, where do you get such amazing toys?

(By the way, I think only old guys like me understand the phrase "super neat," which they are indeed).

At least I didn't say "bitch'n".....but they are.

Everything is a hunt or timing. A lot of it comes from trades. I just lost a Chuck Rogers 1911 for a bunch of very cool revolvers. Priorities change...:cool:

SeriousStudent
05-01-2015, 09:31 PM
Of course....:D

Excellent. I have some things that belong to you and Wayne, I'll bring them.

Dagga Boy
05-23-2015, 03:35 PM
S&W 696 3" .44 Special with a set of very rare red Kurac Combat grips. This thing is truly stunning in person and defines perfect in balance and feel.