Safety in IDPA Competition

[cclaxton]

Gentlemen and Ladies:
This is a great idea. I would hope that we try to keep this subforum focused on the positive. I want all shooting sports to be successful and to grow because shooting sports improves shooter safety and skills and mental discipline, and those are good things.

Since safety is the first thing we should always be concerned about with firearms, let's start with safety. As I have been a safety officer for over a year now, and Match Director I have noticed the area where most people need improvement is finger discipline. Too often I see people allow their trigger finger slip down into or close to the trigger guard. I would like to see that trigger finger up firmly on the side of the frame until the firearm is on target.

I have heard some people say that having the finger near the trigger guard is fine as long as it is not ON the trigger. But as the SO it is often difficult to observe and confirm. If the finger is on the frame, there is no question. Am I being too concerned about this?

Cody

[BJJ]

Not in my opinion.

[PPGMD]

1.2.5. Fingers must be outside the trigger guard during loading, unloading, drawing, reholstering, while moving (unless engaging targets) or during remedial action.

Seems pretty clear to me.

[jetfire]

Gentlemen and Ladies:
This is a great idea. I would hope that we try to keep this subforum focused on the positive. I want all shooting sports to be successful and to grow because shooting sports improves shooter safety and skills and mental discipline, and those are good things.

Since safety is the first thing we should always be concerned about with firearms, let's start with safety. As I have been a safety officer for over a year now, and Match Director I have noticed the area where most people need improvement is finger discipline. Too often I see people allow their trigger finger slip down into or close to the trigger guard. I would like to see that trigger finger up firmly on the side of the frame until the firearm is on target.

I have heard some people say that having the finger near the trigger guard is fine as long as it is not ON the trigger. But as the SO it is often difficult to observe and confirm. If the finger is on the frame, there is no question. Am I being too concerned about this?

Cody

Yes.

Is your finger out of the trigger guard? Y/N. If "Y", regardless of how some Marksman SO feels, you're fine.

[Mr_White]

I think it's really hard to judge whether a finger is inside or outside the trigger guard when it's not also required to be touching the frame or slide in a register position.

I don't personally think the rudimentary rule form of 'finger outside the trigger guard' is sufficient to address the problem of fingers applying pressure to a trigger without a conscious decision to fire having been made.

The customs in competitive shooting are pretty well established though, and I don't think you could make the change from 'outside the trigger guard' to 'proper register position' without vast shooter dissatisfaction.

[littlejerry]

Gentlemen and Ladies:
This is a great idea. I would hope that we try to keep this subforum focused on the positive. I want all shooting sports to be successful and to grow because shooting sports improves shooter safety and skills and mental discipline, and those are good things.

Since safety is the first thing we should always be concerned about with firearms, let's start with safety. As I have been a safety officer for over a year now, and Match Director I have noticed the area where most people need improvement is finger discipline. Too often I see people allow their trigger finger slip down into or close to the trigger guard. I would like to see that trigger finger up firmly on the side of the frame until the firearm is on target.

I have heard some people say that having the finger near the trigger guard is fine as long as it is not ON the trigger. But as the SO it is often difficult to observe and confirm. If the finger is on the frame, there is no question. Am I being too concerned about this?

Cody

"Near" the trigger guard is not the same as IN the trigger guard. Different guns and different hands may not allow finger placement where you would like to see it.

I advise you find a way to get over it.

[Wheeler]

I was a SO for about twelve years and didn't have an issue watching fingers regardless of position on the frame, slide, in front of, or under the trigger guard. My suggestion to novice SO's such as yourself is to learn to watch the gun first, then worry about watching feet, cover, and other sundry items that SO's have to keep track of. Use the ASO to watch the movement and cover violations and worry about the gun.

[Leroy]

Is finger on side of frame safer than on the side of trigger guard? I have always perceived this as an assumption rather than supported by evidence. What about reloading an HK?

[Mr_White]

Is finger on side of frame safer than on the side of trigger guard? I have always perceived this as an assumption rather than supported by evidence. What about reloading an HK?

I think it's safer, though I don't have anything handy to cite for you. It boils down to there being physiological reasons the digits can involuntarily contract - startle response, interlimb interaction, postural disturbance. The register position, with the finger outside and above trigger guard and pressed into frame or slide, is further from the finger getting onto the trigger than when the finger is outside the trigger guard but low and in line with the trigger.

Register position also gives a tactile reference point, which helps some people with trigger finger discipline in general. I think solely being outside the trigger guard is also more vulnerable to the problem of trigger checking. My opinion only though.

HKs are legit guns. I don't love their mag catch, though many people do. I don't love that it gives people a third thing to do with their trigger finger. It's even more elegantly simple for the finger to have exactly two tasks - be in register or work the trigger and shoot the gun. But I don't think it's a huge issue with HKs. It's more of a tiny annoyance from the trainer perspective, where in many instances it's harder to tell if a student is pressing the mag catch or putting their finger in an otherwise improper position. Similar to many instances in competitive shooting when trying to tell the difference between 'low and outside the trigger guard' and 'inside the trigger guard.'

[gringop]

"Near" the trigger guard is not the same as IN the trigger guard. Different guns and different hands may not allow finger placement where you would like to see it.

I advise you find a way to get over it.

If I, as an SO, don't see that your finger is completely out of the trigger guard unless you are firing at a target, I will call Finger. If I have to do it twice, you are DQed from the match. I'll get over that with no problems.

[littlejerry]

If I, as an SO, don't see that your finger is completely out of the trigger guard unless you are firing at a target, I will call Finger. If I have to do it twice, you are DQed from the match. I'll get over that with no problems.

Yeah... Ya know those threads where people complain about IDPA clubs with a bad attitude?

At some point you have to learn to treat other competitors as profesionals. The rules state "outside of the trigger guard", not " indexed where it pleases the SO"

[ToddG]

littlejerry -- It seems to me like you're agreeing with gringop. He said "outside the trigger guard." You're saying "outside the trigger guard." The rule says outside the trigger guard.

[littlejerry]

littlejerry -- It seems to me like you're agreeing with gringop. He said "outside the trigger guard." You're saying "outside the trigger guard." The rule says outside the trigger guard.

I think you are right. I may have misinterpreted or misread the response. The first part of my response wasn't terribly constructive and isn't adding to the discussion.

[HopetonBrown]

I like the hard register in the ejection port a la LAV, Hack and SouthNarc.

[ToddG]

I think you are right. I may have misinterpreted or misread the response. The first part of my response wasn't terribly constructive and isn't adding to the discussion.

Not picking on gringop, but the first time I read it I thought he meant if he couldn't see where your finger was, he assumed it was in the trigger guard. Knowing gringop, I knew that couldn't be what he intended to convey.

[Wheeler]

I like the hard register in the ejection port a la LAV, Hack and SouthNarc.

That doesn't work for southpaws. :-)

[GJM]

I was at a USPSA match two weekends ago. Newish shooter ran between positions, tripped, started falling, and as he tried not to fall, the gun went up, over slightly, and a bunch of us saw muzzle. Fortunately no shot fired.

Trigger discipline is important, but what is really important is muzzle discipline. If the dude lets one off running between positions, he makes a loud noise, gets DQ'd, and probably learns a more enduring lesson that some shades of gray pestering by the RO. If someone breaks the 180, it is possible he shoots the RO, someone in the squad or observing from up range. Keeping that from happening seems a lot more important.

[littlejerry]

I was at a USPSA match two weekends ago. Newish shooter ran between positions, tripped, started falling, and as he tried not to fall, the gun went up, over slightly, and a bunch of us saw muzzle. Fortunately no shot fired.

Trigger discipline is important, but what is really important is muzzle discipline. If the dude lets one off running between positions, he makes a loud noise, gets DQ'd, and probably learns a more enduring lesson that some shades of gray pestering by the RO. If someone breaks the 180, it is possible he shoots the RO, someone in the squad or observing from up range. Keeping that from happening seems a lot more important.

Agree 100% and its why there are no second chances on breaking the 180.

[ToddG]

Agree 100% that muzzle direction is the most important safety issue. However, that doesn't change the existence of the trigger finger rule (both as part of the cardinal rules and most shooting games' rulebooks) and the need to interpret/enforce it.

[Leroy]

I think it's safer, though I don't have anything handy to cite for you. It boils down to there being physiological reasons the digits can involuntarily contract - startle response, interlimb interaction, postural disturbance. The register position, with the finger outside and above trigger guard and pressed into frame or slide, is further from the finger getting onto the trigger than when the finger is outside the trigger guard but low and in line with the trigger.

Register position also gives a tactile reference point, which helps some people with trigger finger discipline in general. I think solely being outside the trigger guard is also more vulnerable to the problem of trigger checking. My opinion only though.

HKs are legit guns. I don't love their mag catch, though many people do. I don't love that it gives people a third thing to do with their trigger finger. It's even more elegantly simple for the finger to have exactly two tasks - be in register or work the trigger and shoot the gun. But I don't think it's a huge issue with HKs. It's more of a tiny annoyance from the trainer perspective, where in many instances it's harder to tell if a student is pressing the mag catch or putting their finger in an otherwise improper position. Similar to many instances in competitive shooting when trying to tell the difference between 'low and outside the trigger guard' and 'inside the trigger guard.'

The reason I pose the question is that I have had 2 AD reloading a Glock 34 and both times my finger was on the frame and it was really cold. I was applying pressure to the frame with my finger and it slipped off and wacked the trigger. For me and G34, actually CZ too, I find it safer and more comfortable to sort of wrap the front of the trigger guard. My guess is that the frame index was really started by instructors working with multiple pupils and in this setting I could see being important so that a bystander would know that the finger is off the trigger.

[rsa-otc]

The reason I pose the question is that I have had 2 AD reloading a Glock 34 and both times my finger was on the frame and it was really cold. I was applying pressure to the frame with my finger and it slipped off and wacked the trigger. For me and G34, actually CZ too, I find it safer and more comfortable to sort of wrap the front of the trigger guard. My guess is that the frame index was really started by instructors working with multiple pupils and in this setting I could see being important so that a bystander would know that the finger is off the trigger.

Actually the frame register came out of the Law Enforcement field in the mid 80's. If memory serves me right I think it was Emanuel Kaphelsohn defending an officer in an accidental shooting who first brought to fore the involuntary physiological issues that OrigamiAK mentioned. It was then researched by many instructors and found to be valid.

In 25 years I have yet to find anyone whose hand was to small to achieve a solid frame register. For those who use their trigger finger to release the magazine either with the traditional button or the non traditional paddle, there is no reason after the magazine is released for the finger not to immediately assume a frame register.

Leroy if you can actually "wrap" your finger around the front of the trigger guard I see no issues with that. A lot of people don't have long enough fingers to achieve the wrap. If you are just getting the pad of the trigger finger on the side of the trigger guard that is an issue. In testing fingers registered on the side of the trigger guard were more likely to slip and engage the trigger under the conditions that triggered the physiological responses mentioned earlier.

When I SO if your finger is outside the trigger when required even if it is not registered on the frame you are golden. I will mention/suggest to the shooter at Club matches that a frame register will be safer in the most likely event that would cause a finger to involuntary migrate to the trigger, that being loss of balance/tripping.

[JackRock]

ALeroy if you can actually "wrap" your finger around the front of the trigger guard I see no issues with that. A lot of people don't have long enough fingers to achieve the wrap. If you are just getting the pad of the trigger finger on the side of the trigger guard that is an issue. In testing fingers registered on the side of the trigger guard were more likely to slip and engage the trigger under the conditions that triggered the physiological responses mentioned earlier.

Also, I would point out that not all firearm models let this technique work. I have relatively small hands, and can wrap my index finger around a few guards. But I shoot my PPQ almost exclusively (it's the only one I currently own), and there's no way in Hades that I could safely place my index finger on the guard. It barely touches the guard at the front, and even with minimal pressure to it, it starts to slip nearly immediately. Thankfully, I have no problem placing it alongside the frame body, to the point that it's now second nature.

[Dagga Boy]

This thread is funny. As soon as somebody says something to Jerry Miculeck or Vogel, then its serious. Its not. There are a bunch of ways for a ND to happen that doesn't involve any conscious action. The trigger finger in the trigger guard, but not on the trigger, or in early is very common. It is even worse on the unload and show clear as well. Many fingers compress into the trigger guard as soon as they grasp the slide and start applying pressure. I have never seen anyone say anything at any venue. I see it because I am hyper sensitive to it, and actually looking for it.
While not IDPA, since getting back to shooting competitively, I have really had to work on my draw-stroke to go to the same draw I use on my auto defensive carry pistol to delay my finger entry on my 686SSR. It is a little slower, but worth the investment. For many it is not worth the time, and for the top level guys a delayed finger can be the difference in winning and second.

[Mr_White]

An actual, pressed into the frame or slide, register position can take a lot of attention and effort from trainers and students to establish, but it's gotta be done and it's worth it. The rudimentary 'outside the trigger guard' is distinctly less good, IMHO.

[GJM]

An actual, pressed into the frame or slide, register position can take a lot of attention and effort from trainers and students to establish, but it's gotta be done and it's worth it. The rudimentary 'outside the trigger guard' is distinctly less good, IMHO.

Gabe, would this work for you?


http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg1_zps35ca3311.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg1_zps35ca3311.jpg.html)

[Maple Syrup Actual]

An actual, pressed into the frame or slide, register position can take a lot of attention and effort from trainers and students to establish, but it's gotta be done and it's worth it. The rudimentary 'outside the trigger guard' is distinctly less good, IMHO.

I didn't start taking this seriously until recently for some reason, but for the last while I have been trying to program in the ejection port register.

I used to be a flat-on-the-frame guy.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

[Dagga Boy]

[QUOTE=GJM;271949]Gabe, would this work for you?

What is Putin's class in IDPA....;-)

[YVK]

Gabe, would this work for you?




Think twice before saying anything critical, Origami.

[Mr_White]

Gabe, would this work for you?


http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg1_zps35ca3311.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg1_zps35ca3311.jpg.html)

In competition, yes, since it satisfies the rules.

In foundational training it would be unacceptable and would be persistently corrected.

In an open enrollment class with students of a variety of backgrounds and where many of those backgrounds include having been taught by legitimate trainers who I happen to disagree with on this point, I'll address the issue but not penalize the student if they use the rudimentary outside the trigger guard position.



I didn't start taking this seriously until recently for some reason, but for the last while I have been trying to program in the ejection port register.

I used to be a flat-on-the-frame guy.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

I don't mind flat on the frame. Absolutely no lower than the frame though. I've seen the super high ejection port to be hand and gun dependent to some degree.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I imagine they're probably both a bit gun-dependant. I had not thought about it until just now but flat was my preference on Glocks and EP is my preference on 1911s.

At this time I am skeptical of the existence of other pistols. Not committed to their absence, maybe, but agunostic.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

[JV_]

I've seen the super high ejection port to be hand and gun dependent to some degree.

I have small hands. On a Glock, it hurts my finger joint. I use the high-frame index.

[ToddG]

In an open enrollment class with students of a variety of backgrounds and where many of those backgrounds include having been taught by legitimate trainers who I happen to disagree with on this point, I'll address the issue but not penalize the student if they use the rudimentary outside the trigger guard position.

Agree with this 100%. I have to say that, perhaps because so few of my students came from a primarily competition-oriented background, I saw very few students who simultaneously kept their finger outside the finger guard but not registered on the gun. The best advice I ever received on the subject was to tell students to do something positively ("finger in safe position" or "finger in register position") rather than tell them not to do something ("don't put your finger on the trigger").

As far as using the ejection port, I don't do it myself and find there is too much variability in terms of guns, hands, fingers, and handedness to recommend it as a universal or even near-universal solution. Personally, I just find it plain uncomfortable with most guns and I'm a big believer that it's hard to teach people to do something uncomfortable...

[Dagga Boy]

One of the several very good things I got from Vickers was moving my finger up from just outside the trigger guard with the frame against a very straight trigger to that finger fully above the trigger guard so you can see air through it.

We are huge advocates of going to a hard register point. One of the biggest positives for me on the P30 was the right side slide release was perfectly contoured for my trigger finger and put the pad right on the little square in front of it. This was another huge plus for me on the P30 as both an AIWB pistol and a people management pistol.

From what I have seen, the only safety rule in the competition world is "don't break the 180" and don't be loaded until told to and unload when told to. The trigger finger discipline is horrendous, and in the case of the top guys, gamed successfully.

[ToddG]

DB -- Half with you and half not on the last point.

Competitive shooters tend to be far better about muzzle discipline than any other collective group (including high level mil/LE) in my experience. SLG and I taught a class at West Point years ago and the cadets thought it perfectly normal and OK to point guns at us and each other when they came off the rack because they "knew" the guns were unloaded. When we corrected it, they treated us both as if we were idiots who'd never done anything important in our lives. Which is true of me, but for SLG was just laughable.

The trigger finger thing is something everyone needs to learn because most guns intentionally are designed to bring your index finger to the trigger as the most normal, comfortable position. It's the thing I find myself reminding new shooters the most because it's just not subconscious or obvious until you've been doing it for a while. Now add new things like moving, be on a clock, stress of shooting against others, etc. and in a match environment newer shooters often slip back to bad finger management. That seems to be universal in other ponds with other professions, too, as anyone who's done a lot of FOF can attest. Trigger checking infects almost everyone.

As for the top shooters, in my experience they're awesome about trigger safety when moving moderate or long distances. When moving short distances they're just going so fast and getting mentally on target so fast that they don't really have time to come off the trigger and get back on it. Nor do they violate the rule long enough for the RO to call them on it before they've already "fixed" it by being sights on target.

[Dagga Boy]

You are actually fully with me. The "don't violate the 180" as the only real safety rule ingrains very good muzzle discipline, including some very creative techniques for moving while keeping the muzzle oriented to the backstop. I have enough pictures of some very well known folks in my "Match Gun Handling" file on my computer of those guys with fingers in trigger guards while moving (JM is notorious for this with a revolver.....I am not that worried about Jerry doing it, but I am about the guys trying to be like Jerry) and inside the trigger guard as the muzzle is clearing the top of the holster. As you said, the Pro's are getting away with it because you usually don't catch it until there are pictures posted because of the speed, but you also have everyone else trying to mimic these folks, which is a problem.
I don't shoot IDPA these days, so I could give a crap what goes on, but we do see it show back up with shooters who we have to fix when we see them in class. It is good for them as we are trying to make them aware of what is critical on a non "don't break the 180" called Walmart or 7-11. Others are only shooting these types of events, and are an accident waiting to happen at some point....like mulitple ND's when clearing as posted above. The way I have seen a bunch of "unload and show clears" done, I can see how this can happen. I am a "why" dude. Every ND is a bad thing. The only good that comes from them is trying to see how it happened so we can fix it in training. I see a lot of what we have learned on my side of the fence as being a process that leads to ND's being done regularly on the competition side as a normal thing.

[ToddG]

Yeah the whole 180 thing is a cruel necessity. It's certainly not realistic outside of playing a game but essential within one. The running thing is one great example. Who would run that way? More importantly is trying to get folks to realize that they're actually in a 360-degree environment while simultaneously quite possibly having less than 180 degrees of safety. The 180 rule makes people very range safe (which is nice for instructors, too) but can also lead to treating muzzle direction as a binary 180safe/181unsafe thought process that has no real world analogue.

[Dagga Boy]

Yeah the whole 180 thing is a cruel necessity. It's certainly not realistic outside of playing a game but essential within one. The running thing is one great example. Who would run that way? More importantly is trying to get folks to realize that they're actually in a 360-degree environment while simultaneously quite possibly having less than 180 degrees of safety. The 180 rule makes people very range safe (which is nice for instructors, too) but can also lead to treating muzzle direction as a binary 180safe/181unsafe thought process that has no real world analogue.

Yep. It's why I look at IDPA like I do Cowboy Action. Many amazing shooters in a dress up costume shooting a fantasy game, but focused on the shooting, along with a bunch of shooters of different levels also shooting a dress up fantasy game and focused on the fantasy. Which is all great as long as everyone is having fun and nobody gets hurt, which it seems like both do a very good job of.

[Cookie Monster]

That doesn't work for southpaws. :-)


I register on the top corner of the slide running Glocks left handed.

CM

[TR675]

I have a really excellent high register on the ejection port. Classes, range, competition - I'm on top of that like nobody's business.

Then I took AMIS, and you know what? Turns out when I start creeping around corners looking for a bad guy and expecting to shoot them or get shot by them...I am subconsciously ON that trigger like white on rice. All of the good training and reps weren't enough to keep me from doing it under stress and I had to devote a bit of brainpower to keeping my finger up high and off the trigger.

One more reason to take a good FOF class. I wouldn't have thought my good habits would go bad so quickly if I hadn't experienced it myself.

[ToddG]

I wouldn't have thought my good habits would go bad so quickly if I hadn't experienced it myself.

It's ok, bro. You were simply playing by big boy rules...

2807

[Maple Syrup Actual]

OMF thank you for that screen grab. I have been wishing I saved something out of that mess for years.




EDIT: When I hit "search google for this image" in chrome, I got:

best guess for this image:

Sonny Puzikas Shooting



Seriously. I FKING LOLD.

[GJM]

K


From what I have seen, the only safety rule in the competition world is "don't break the 180" and don't be loaded until told to and unload when told to. The trigger finger discipline is horrendous, and in the case of the top guys, gamed successfully.

Horrendous -- compared to who?

I suspect that if you took a cross section of IDPA and USPSA shooters, and compared their gun handling to almost any "group" of other shooters, they would compare favorably. What other group are you referring to with such great gun handling?

[GJM]

Yes, USPSA and IDPA are games. I think it is common for some to run both down, looking for the negatives instead of the positives.

Somewhere else, I heard it said that shooting, for example, 97 percent of the available points in a match is a recipe for getting yourself killed in a gun fight. I started thinking of what that meant in actual points shot. Assuming a four stage, 30 scoring hits per stage match, we have 120x5 or 600 possible points. Using Production, which I shoot, my math says you need to shoot 582 points to get 97 percent of the available points. Assuming no D's or Mikes, that means a maximum of 9 C's while shooting 111 A's. That includes upper A's, partial A zones, shooting on the move in and out of position, all while trying to minimize time. Is there any LE unit that wouldn't sign up for their shooters with a handgun shooting 111 A's, 9 C's with zero D's or Mikes under those conditions?

[cclaxton]

The trigger finger thing is something everyone needs to learn because most guns intentionally are designed to bring your index finger to the trigger as the most normal, comfortable position. It's the thing I find myself reminding new shooters the most because it's just not subconscious or obvious until you've been doing it for a while. Now add new things like moving, be on a clock, stress of shooting against others, etc. and in a match environment newer shooters often slip back to bad finger management. That seems to be universal in other ponds with other professions, too, as anyone who's done a lot of FOF can attest. Trigger checking infects almost everyone.

As for the top shooters, in my experience they're awesome about trigger safety when moving moderate or long distances. When moving short distances they're just going so fast and getting mentally on target so fast that they don't really have time to come off the trigger and get back on it. Nor do they violate the rule long enough for the RO to call them on it before they've already "fixed" it by being sights on target.

Very well said, Todd. This is my experience as well. I did have to DQ a guy at my last match for letting off a ND at the end of his reload (when slide hit battery, finger was in the guard and hit the trigger.) The closer your finger is to the trigger, the more likely a ND while you are doing a reload, managing a malfunction, moving from one point to another, switching hands for weak-strong hand exchanges, etc. I see it as increasing the margin for error to index on the frame.

For new IDPA shooters at my club I tell them I expect to see the finger registered on the frame when not engaging targets. But I don't call finger unless the finger is inside the trigger guard when not engaging targets. For Expert and Master shooters in IDPA they are often moving so fast that I can't make a good observation. They may be getting away with it. For Marksman and Sharpshooters it is much easier to see and I will make a finger call.

I remember one new shooter at Peacemaker I had called Finger on a stage, and he swore he didn't do it. On the next stage I yelled STOP during his reload from low cover. He looked up at me, and I said, "Look down at your gun." He looked down at the gun showing left side up, and his finger was still ON the trigger as he had just released the slide. I said, "Do you believe me now?", and he shook his head an agreement and thanks. He had an important realization....after the timer goes off and you are trying to go fast you start to fall into old habits. He had to go home that day, but it was well worth the lesson.

All these comments are great and it's good to see varying points of view. And, if I ever was forced to call finger on JM or Vogel, I doubt they would challenge it. They know they are pushing the envelope.

Cody

[Dagga Boy]

Yes, USPSA and IDPA are games. I think it is common for some to run both down, looking for the negatives instead of the positives.

Somewhere else, I heard it said that shooting, for example, 97 percent of the available points in a match is a recipe for getting yourself killed in a gun fight. I started thinking of what that meant in actual points shot. Assuming a four stage, 30 scoring hits per stage match, we have 120x5 or 600 possible points. Using Production, which I shoot, my math says you need to shoot 582 points to get 97 percent of the available points. Assuming no D's or Mikes, that means a maximum of 9 C's while shooting 111 A's. That includes upper A's, partial A zones, shooting on the move in and out of position, all while trying to minimize time. Is there any LE unit that wouldn't sign up for their shooters with a handgun shooting 111 A's, 9 C's with zero D's or Mikes under those conditions?

George, trust me we are FAR harder and critical on the LEO's and Mil guys for safety issues, as they are far more likely to kill or injure someone negligently due to exposure with guns with real people and not cardboard or steel. Any of our students will tell you we tell them that if they ever see a bunch of LEO's at some sort of crisis running around with guns out, to get as far away as possible as quickly as possible, as our standards of how we (and many others) do things is far from the majority.

Trust me, the "marksmanship" part of the equation is not what the issue is (the marksmanship skills among competitors is FAR above the professional and amateur gun carriers) it's trying to apply the tactics of a fantasy role playing game to reality not a game encounters.........that is all. I am all for folks having fun, dressing up as "tactical undercover person", cowboys, Nascar/Formula One with guns, etc. Great recreation, good fun, and can be as demanding as any sport at the top end (I look at guys like Leatham like a top level athlete in any sport, and respect the dedication to the sport). My point with even posting on this is that Match gun handling and safety rules have a perception, and a reality. We see the exact same issues with those who carry guns amongst us daily, except with a far greater risk of injury and death, especially to others.

The issues are FAR greater outside the competitive world, as are the consequences. Because of studying this high consequence world, we know how to correct these issues (getting folks to listen is another story altogether). Where I see the biggest difference, is in "my world" (or area of interest), those at the top end have been the ones to push for higher levels of safety. In the competitive arena, those at the top end are often hampered by adherence to certain gun handling protocols. Their risk and the risk to others at their level is very low, so there is little motivation to change and likely resistance. This used to be the area of resistance on the "tactical side" who "needed" to violate many of today's safety protocols to work at the high levels in their world......until they got to the point that shooting way too many of the wrong things with lots of injuries and deaths before things changed. This is simply stuff that doesn't translate well, and I get it.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The trigger finger thing is something everyone needs to learn because most guns intentionally are designed to bring your index finger to the trigger as the most normal, comfortable position.

For reference - that's caused an affordance. Psychologist James J. Gibson introduced term in 1977 - affordances as all "action possibilities" latent in the environment. An affordance is a quality of an object, or an environment, which allows an individual to perform an action. For example, a knob affords twisting, and perhaps pushing, while a cord affords pulling. In his book, Design of Every Day Things which documents errors based on such, Donald Norman says: those are action possibilities that are readily perceivable by an actor. I've heard it described as the 'finger seeks the trigger'.

[John Hearne]

The trigger finger is one of those issues that compounds nastily as stress goes up.

First, we know that under stress, people subconsciously touch the trigger in an effort to assure themselves. IIRC, it's like 25% of cops in scenarios doing this without any awareness. As the level of stress increases, the incidence of the trigger verification increases.

Second, under a true startle response, it is possible to apply ~50 lbs of clinch force. If the finger is anywhere but on the frame or slide, it will skip off of whatever it is resting against and find itself on to the trigger. Did I mention 50 lbs?

Third, as stress increases, the degree of startle response increases and it will be more significant.

The most important point we can teach anyone when it comes to shooting is trigger finger discipline and that finger must be on the frame or slide - otherwise, you're just kidding yourself.

[Mr_White]

I'd love to know if the incidence of trigger checking among 'true register' people is less than among 'outside the trigger guard people'.

The Christopher Heim study out of U of Frankfurt is disconcerting because it shows something like a 60% rate of trigger checking, but I don't at all trust that the subjects are representative of hard register people as I know them. I strongly suspect they come from less evolved and developed traditions of gunhandling.

[rsa-otc]

The trigger finger is one of those issues that compounds nastily as stress goes up.

First, we know that under stress, people subconsciously touch the trigger in an effort to assure themselves. IIRC, it's like 25% of cops in scenarios doing this without any awareness. As the level of stress increases, the incidence of the trigger verification increases.

Second, under a true startle response, it is possible to apply ~50 lbs of clinch force. If the finger is anywhere but on the frame or slide, it will skip off of whatever it is resting against and find itself on to the trigger. Did I mention 50 lbs?

Third, as stress increases, the degree of startle response increases and it will be more significant.

The most important point we can teach anyone when it comes to shooting is trigger finger discipline and that finger must be on the frame or slide - otherwise, you're just kidding yourself.

See I take a different approach. Yes teaching trigger finger discipline is critical, but recognizing all the studies that show people finger checking their wooby as nyeti refers to it may be inevitable, muzzle discipline is as critical or more so than trigger finger discipline. That way if they do the inevitable and the gun goes bang at least the round doesn't hit anything noteworthy. Personally I think muzzle discipline is a tad more important. But to cover my bases I stress both equally to my students and the competitors I SO.

ETA: Please ignore the emotion icon. I am using a tablet and it was inadvertently inserted. Sorry

[JV_]

ETA: Please ignore the emotion icon. I am using a tablet and it was inadvertently inserted. SorryI removed it.

[rsa-otc]

I removed it.

Thank you sir!

[LSP972]

... we tell them that if they ever see a bunch of LEO's at some sort of crisis running around with guns out, to get as far away as possible as quickly as possible...

No kidding. Its almost as dangerous as hunting in a public area during doe day.

.

[Dagga Boy]

See I take a different approach. Yes teaching trigger finger discipline is critical, but recognizing all the studies that show people finger checking their wooby as nyeti refers to it may be inevitable, muzzle discipline is as critical or more so than trigger finger discipline. That way if they do the inevitable and the gun goes bang at least the round doesn't hit anything noteworthy. Personally I think muzzle discipline is a tad more important. But to cover my bases I stress both equally to my students and the competitors I SO.

ETA: Please ignore the emotion icon. I am using a tablet and it was inadvertently inserted. Sorry

In a Match, I would agree with you. Elsewhere, they tend to carry about equal weight and we present a lot of scenarios where problems arise.

[Trooper224]

I've spent time on the range with competitors, average citizens, military and law enforcement. The only conclusion my collective experience has brought me to is this: they all suck at this particular point. When I served on my agenicies tactical unit it was back in the era where we didn't give a thought to muzzeling each other with our weapons when we were stacked up or moving. Afterall, we were highspeed and trusted each other. Now, years later after putting a few rounds where they weren't supposed to go, the attitude on that has thankfully shifted. I've seen everyone from the highest of speeds most "switched on dude" to the rankests of amatuers do the worst things on the range in a moment where they're attention was divided. I think you can mitigate it, but I doubt if it's possible to eliminate it.

[rsa-otc]

I've seen everyone from the highest of speeds most "switched on dude" to the rankests of amatuers do the worst things on the range in a moment where they're attention was divided. I think you can mitigate it, but I doubt if it's possible to eliminate it.

I am on board with this. John Shaw is quoted by Michael Baine as saying "people are issued only so many pennies of attention, once they run out issues start to happen" Attention is finite. Training helps to hardwire (full credit to nyeti for the term) certain things so that our subconscious will take over when our conscious is fully engaged elsewhere, unfortunately it's not 100% infallible.

Where I'm coming from is this - if you are on the range or out in public and see someone you know is not intending to shoot you but is muzzeling you while fingering the trigger; are you going to tell him to point the gun elsewhere first then address the finger issue or visa versa? That will tell you where the importance lies for you.

In training we stress both equally, show our students the disaster factors of both, come down like then hammer of Thor on the more exerperienced ones when they break either rule (new shooters I'm strict with but not in a Drill instructor from hell sort of way, we want them to come back) . But in the back of my mind if they break either on the street I'd rather it be the finger issue.

[rsa-otc]

I'm fortunate in that the clubs I shoot with have a high percentage of Active or Retired tactical shooters. Either SWAT/High risk response team or instructors. One was just transferred to FLETC and another is assigned to the State Police Academy teaching firearms. So we tend to keep each other in check from falling into bad competition habits chasing a quicker time over solid tactics and gun handling skills.

Because of this one thing I got all the SOs to agree upon within the bounds of safety we let everyone do their own pre and post shooting routine and don't rush them to holster; either the beginning of the stage or at the end.

[John Hearne]

I think this is a problem of establishing a default. If you think the default position for the trigger finger is the trigger then it will end up on the trigger. If your default position for the "trigger finger" is the frame or slide (making it a frame finger?) then it will end up on the frame.

Jeff Cooper was a very smart man that was able to intuit a lot of what we've been able to scientifically verify. About the only thing I take issue with is the wording of Rule 3.

Of course the other problem I've seen comes at the other end of the problem - people who come off of the trigger so fast that they have zero follow through.

[John Hearne]

bad edit

[LSP972]

I've got a question for you "certified" RO types.

At the last USPSA event I attended, the RO on one stage got highly annoyed that, after loading, part of my "making ready" was to exchange the Barney mag for a full one… but I did it after holstering.

I didn't argue with him on the line, but later I cornered him regarding this (because he had pissed me off with his condescending attitude) and asked for a detailed explanation of why it was a bad idea, against the rules, etc. He spluttered and fumed and did NOT answer my questions.

So, was this guy just an abnormal dickhead, or is there something in rules/policies which prevent this practice?

.

[littlejerry]

I've got a question for you "certified" RO types.

At the last USPSA event I attended, the RO on one stage got highly annoyed that, after loading, part of my "making ready" was to exchange the Barney mag for a full one… but I did it after holstering.

I didn't argue with him on the line, but later I cornered him regarding this (because he had pissed me off with his condescending attitude) and asked for a detailed explanation of why it was a bad idea, against the rules, etc. He spluttered and fumed and did NOT answer my questions.

So, was this guy just an abnormal dickhead, or is there something in rules/policies which prevent this practice?

.

I'd go with dickhead.

One club hosts a steel match near me and a crotchety RO dq'd a guy for checking holster tension after loading. He literally popped the gun into the holster, popped it out by 1 inch, re seated it, and then said "ready!". The RO said " You are done for the day"

[Dagga Boy]

"Of course the other problem I've seen comes at the other end of the problem - people who come off of the trigger so fast that they have zero follow through."

This is my worst habit. I have so highly focused on my finger index and register that I am literally uncomfortable with my finger on the trouble. This is a great gun-handling Hardwired sub conscious habit, and a not so good marksmanship habit and one area where I know my "balance" is off. Of course I have pointed the the things at far more people than I have shot, and many of us handle them more than we shoot them. On the other side, I think some of the top shooting sports athletes are actually shooting them more than handling them.
It takes a very long time to properly wire this stuff up to survive stress and task staking. It is not a priority for most.

[LSP972]

I'd go with dickhead.

One club hosts a steel match near me and a crotchety RO dq'd a guy for checking holster tension after loading. He literally popped the gun into the holster, popped it out by 1 inch, re seated it, and then said "ready!". The RO said " You are done for the day"

You see, THAT sort of thing is why I (and many shooters I know) generally avoid these events. You get up early, drive all the way to the range, pay the fees, etc.; and then get DQ'ed over some nonsense like that? I have no problem with a nazi attitude regarding safety; it MUST be so, because too may people would make potentially lethal mistakes otherwise. But when some kid still moist behind the ears tell you your long-proven technique is "old school" and therefore unacceptable; well, the range of responses you feel do not include meek submission.

.

[rsa-otc]

Ditto on the Dickhead.

For some people SOing is a power trip.

The one thing that can get under my skin is an SO whose only exposure to "Tactics" is IDPA telling me how I'm doing it wrong and it will get me killed in the streets. I had one argue with me even though I was wearing an NRA LEO firearms instructor hat at the time. The guys day job was a printer. No other training other than IDPA.

But no I see nothing wrong with what you did. Just like I don't see anything wrong with an LEO on my line loading going to Sul and scanning before holstering or going to Sul scanning then going through the required unloading process. But that freaks some SOs out.

[rsa-otc]

I'd go with dickhead.

One club hosts a steel match near me and a crotchety RO dq'd a guy for checking holster tension after loading. He literally popped the gun into the holster, popped it out by 1 inch, re seated it, and then said "ready!". The RO said " You are done for the day"

Usually I ignore guys like that. Do what they want while on their line and get off as soon as possible. Fortunately I haven't encountered many of those over the last 5 years or so.

But if I got DQ'd over something like that I would be discussing it with the match director vigorously before leaving the range.

[PPGMD]

You see, THAT sort of thing is why I (and many shooters I know) generally avoid these events. You get up early, drive all the way to the range, pay the fees, etc.; and then get DQ'ed over some nonsense like that? I have no problem with a nazi attitude regarding safety; it MUST be so, because too may people would make potentially lethal mistakes otherwise. But when some kid still moist behind the ears tell you your long-proven technique is "old school" and therefore unacceptable; well, the range of responses you feel do not include meek submission.

Granted I shoot mostly USPSA anymore, but power trip dickhead ROs are rare in USPSA/IDPA. Now there are some IDPA ROs that might say that IDPA methods are superior tactically as they give you a procedural for breaking some rule (the procedurals is warranted the lecture isn't), but even those are rare.

In fact the worst I've gotten at club matches is reminder to turn then draw when the start position is holstered facing up range (I look youngish).

Though at the IPSC Nationals a couple of the international ROs lectured me about my muzzle up reloads, after they said "You didn't break the 90, but..." I just tuned them out.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Dickhead - we have a well-known range SO analogy to a member of the Third Reich. I got threatened with an FTDR because I fired an extra shot at a close target that allowed a better reload pattern. Blah, blah - glad that rule is gone.

As far as trigger finger, I was score keeping and a guy holstered his gun after loading and making ready. Bang - a 45 a foot from my foot and inches from the SO. It was a 1911, so he must have flipped the safety and had his finger on the trigger. Then he started to wave his gun : What did I do? He was grabbed by the SO.

The Serpas at matches are frightening. A new shooter was struggling with the release and heading for a finger slide into the trigger when the SO grabbed him. A very practiced LEO and competition shooter had one that his department was mandating and had a good deal of trouble doing it smoothly. He hated it.

[NEPAKevin]

In fact the worst I've gotten at club matches is reminder to turn then draw when the start position is holstered facing up range (I look youngish).



FWIW, I started using that exact wording in CoF descriptions after someone did not. Sometimes the devil is in the details and avoiding muzzles up range is a win for everyone.

[GJM]

What would take longer to teach:

1) Assuming they weren't doing it, a USPSA A or IDPA M shooter to place their finger flat and high against the slide when not shooting.

or

2) The typical LE shooter, that had been tutored on the finger high and flat against the slide, to shoot at the USPSA A or IDPA M level.

My guess is about 10-30 minutes to teach an A/M finger discipline, and 1-3 years to teach the average LE shooter USPSA A or IDPA M skills.

[Mr_White]

I'd agree that it's going to take longer to get a person performing at the A/M class level than it is to get them performing persistently correct trigger finger discipline.

However, from my time in defensive pistol training, I think it takes a ton of effort to get that persistently correct trigger finger discipline. Not just say it. Not tell the students to do it but then not really make them do it. Not tell them to do but then do it wrong sometimes yourself. Not make them do it some of the time. To get someone to have their finger in register 100% of the time other than when the muzzle is aligned with the target and they've made a conscious decision to fire, you have to spend a lot of instructor and student effort on it - in some cases more than others. A few people just can't or won't ultimately do it well enough, but they are pretty uncommon.

A decently apt student can begin a correct habit within a one day class with all the aforementioned effort and close attention. Then the instructors and students have to doggedly continue as the student progresses into more demanding and complex tasks and circumstances. The big effort isn't over after the first day.

Still not as long as I think it is going to take to make them an A/M. Not even close. But it does take significant time and effort to create a person who actually does, virtually all the time, what they are supposed to do with their trigger finger. Like multiple days of training done really well to get them reliably correct in the training environment.

[GJM]

I'd agree that it's going to take longer to get a person performing at the A/M class level than it is to get them performing persistently correct trigger finger discipline.

You are answering a different question. My question was not how long does it take to teach some shooter trigger discipline skills. My question was how long will it take, if necessary, to teach a shooter with A/M skills, trigger finger discipline?

[Mr_White]

Well oops!

I don't know how long. I think the A/M will already pretty much have trigger finger discipline down by the time they get to that level. Though their version may be just outside the trigger guard. Don't know how long to change that to register. I've not encountered exactly that circumstance.

[Dagga Boy]

What would take longer to teach:

1) Assuming they weren't doing it, a USPSA A or IDPA M shooter to place their finger flat and high against the slide when not shooting.

or

2) The typical LE shooter, that had been tutored on the finger high and flat against the slide, to shoot at the USPSA A or IDPA M level.

My guess is about 10-30 minutes to teach an A/M finger discipline, and 1-3 years to teach the average LE shooter USPSA A or IDPA M skills.

LE shooters need a wide range of skills for their job, that has little to do with IDPA or USPSA. A/M who has a ton of repetitions doing something not indexed above the frame will take a significant number of reps, and reps under stress to re-learn a new sub-conscious skill to replace and old one.

I know I can teach regular cops to crush their opponents in gunfights in the field in about a year of dedicated work. Have no clue how long it would take to do well in a shooting sport. I imagine it would be the same as anyone else starting new at the sport.

Realistically, I shouldn't have even posted on this thread. I'll just go back to not reading here as it isn't my lane at all....sorry for the interruption.

[taadski]

LE shooters need a wide range of skills for their job, that has little to do with IDPA or USPSA. A/M who has a ton of repetitions doing something not indexed above the frame will take a significant number of reps, and reps under stress to re-learn a new sub-conscious skill to replace and old one.

I know I can teach regular cops to crush their opponents in gunfights in the field in about a year of dedicated work. Have no clue how long it would take to do well in a shooting sport. I imagine it would be the same as anyone else starting new at the sport.

Realistically, I shouldn't have even posted on this thread. I'll just go back to not reading here as it isn't my lane at all....sorry for the interruption.

Bah! Darrell, your input is absolutely appreciated. Keep it up, please. That said, I would like some IDPA wheel gun footage when you have time! ;)

BTW, you're new profile addendum if fraking hilarious and made me knee slap and LOL if you don't mind my saying. :D



t

[Alpha Sierra]

I like the hard register in the ejection port a la LAV, Hack and SouthNarc.

It's physically impossible for people with short fingers to do so. I am one of them. And I will not humor anyone who requires me to do so.

[cclaxton]

Thanks for all the great comments and analysis.
I know it's hard to get consensus on anything but would it be fair to say that:

New shooters should be trained to register the trigger finger on the frame and it is more safe to operate than allowing the finger to be just outside the trigger guard. But for shooting sports (IDPA, et.al), shooters are required to keep the muzzle from breaking the 180 rule, and this provides a reasonable safeguard that allows the finger to stay just outside the trigger guard.

I will continue to ask shooters attending my matches to index their trigger finger on the frame during the safety briefings. But I will follow the IDPA rule on calling finger.

Cody

[Wendell]

...New shooters should be trained to register the trigger finger on the frame...

I think it better to emphasize a "High and Hard" index, rather than just on the frame or just outside of the triggerguard. In the end, they have to make the decision for themselves, and they will, and I tell them that they will have to decide upon an index point that works, but I also strongly recommend to them a "High and Hard" index.

[P210-6]

I think it better to emphasize a "High and Hard" index, rather than just on the frame or just outside of the triggerguard. In the end, they have to make the decision for themselves, and they will, and I tell them that they will have to decide upon an index point that works, but I also strongly recommend to them a "High and Hard" index.

Agreed. I teach a "high trigger finger index", where daylight (or as someone else here said "air") is visible thru the guard. At 25ft from the shooter in less than optimal lighting conditions I may not be able to discern if that finger is alongside the trigger guard, or in it.

Others have already stated the multitude of reasons why nasty things can happen during aroused states and handling a handgun.

btw, good thread, as most here are.
P210-6

[cclaxton]

Some ranges restrict muzzles going above their berms. This normally is an issue for some people when reloading with muzzle up. I just trained myself to do a reload into the berm, keeping the firearm parallel with the ground. I find it acceptable. I am not convinced that you suffer much in time. Even Tomasie's reloads show minimal muzzle lift during a reload. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls4Uq1aCiTA
I have run into some shooters who refuse to shoot at a range that restricts high reloads.
By learning to keep low reloads, I can shoot more often and in a wider variety of matches and circumstances.
It is a liability issue for the ranges.

What are the thoughts of the members here?
Cody

[JV_]

Even Tomasie's reloads show minimal muzzle lift during a reload.

IMO, his muzzle approaches a 45 degree angle, and that's high. It's not straight up, but it's over the berm at most of the outdoor ranges I've visited.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9l60PUIzZqc/VL_b2gjzpHI/AAAAAAAADmk/aGHkLlUIuus/s647/cant.png

And, he has a HUGE magwell on there. That is a bit more forgiving from a suboptimal cant.

A different cant doesn't necessarily slow me down, but if I miss the reload it sure does. I flub them less if I point the magwell at my mag pouch.

[Clusterfrack]

My local range (TCGC in Portland) also forbids muzzle above the berm. I don't find it a handicap for reloads in IDPA or multigun. For me a muzzle-up reload seems slightly faster, but with a muzzle-level reload I think I can get back on target quicker.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

At our range, we need to keep things below the berm. Above the berm there are hard rocks, etc. in the hillside. In the rifle section, we have had rounds come back and hit persons. One guy got seriously wounded in the shoulder from some idiot who did that. Cops came, etc. The shooter attempted to sneak away but was prevented from such.

I have personally seen a soldier who was shooting with us get seriously impacted on his head by such a round. Thank God, no penetration but a serious bruise. We wanted him to go the hospital but he refused. The same day another round whacked into the tin roof of the range table. We heard it whine in and splang!

This weekend, the SO had to DQ a solider who got confused on a run through barricades where he missed a target and backpedaled sweeping all. Another ran out at the same corner and reloaded with barrel up towards the crowd and was DQ'ed. They were new to the game and more power to them coming out. Good sports and they stayed to observe and tape.

Last, there was an LEO who said he was on a tactical team and came out in full gear with a 1911 mounted on his vest on his chest. The SO's had to discuss his draw as not to sweep. It worked out.

Liability - the last I heard the guy who got shot was suing the shooter and the range.