Advice needed on the $600 "Northern Guard Bravo Rifle" deal from Troy

[frozentundra]

Any reason this would not be a good base starter/beater AR? Any better deals running this season?
I don't know much about AR's.
What about the gas block not being pinned?

http://troydefense.com/portfolio/troy-bravo-rifles/

I called and asked about some specs that were not listed anywhere on their site. This is what the rep told me.
The barrel is 41B50, 1-7 twist, melonite treated, with M4 feed ramps.
Gas block is attached with set screws, which are staked. It is not pinned to the barrel.
Mil-spec parkerized, chrome lined bolt carrier assembly.
Mil -spec receiver extension and barrel nut.
The flash hider on the 16" is not pinned and welded(error on the website).
No MPI or HPT.


Any thoughts or advise would be appreciated.

[LittleLebowski]

Looks like a good starter AR to me, I recommended it to a friend. With ARs, you can fix anything that's wrong fairly easily.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Any reason this would not be a good base starter/beater AR? Any better deals running this season?
I don't know much about AR's.
What about the gas block not being pinned?

http://troydefense.com/portfolio/troy-bravo-rifles/

I called and asked about some specs that were not listed anywhere on their site. This is what the rep told me.
The barrel is 41B50, 1-7 twist, melonite treated, with M4 feed ramps.
Gas block is attached with set screws, which are staked. It is not pinned to the barrel.
Mil-spec parkerized, chrome lined bolt carrier assembly.
Mil -spec receiver extension and barrel nut.
The flash hider on the 16" is not pinned and welded(error on the website).
No MPI or HPT.


Any thoughts or advise would be appreciated.

If it's not MPI'd or HPT'd, then it is definitively NOT Mil-spec as the Mil-Spec requires those steps. You get what you pay for. Buy a Colt or BCM and cry once. Carbine prices are soft right now so shop around for great deals on the top quality brands.

[TGS]

If I had to buy a $600 rifle, then that's the one I would buy.

I don't like the lack of an individually tested bolt. The gas block doesn't excite me either, but I guess if it's staked well then it's a pretty good deal for a $600 AR15.

Still, I would personally buy Josh's upper for $500 (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13628-AR-Upper-Sinn-104-Flashlights-AR-and-Shotgun-Gear-and-Other-Stuff). I'd rather buy that and spend another $200 for a lower...giving me a completely sound weapon for just $100 more than this Troy rifle. In addition to Josh's upper, there have been quality AR15's in nice configurations in the same price range on our own for sale section recently....so if Josh's sells, then just keep an eye out and I'm sure something nice will come by.

[Josh Runkle]

It is well worth $600. There are many, many better ARs, but they are all obviously at least 2-3-4 times that price. If that is your final budget, that is a good choice. If you can afford to spend more, there are much better choices.

[Wayne Dobbs]

If the gun will EVER be used or considered for serious use, don't buy something cheap. That gas block really bothers me and the non-QC'd bolts and barrels are not a good starting place. Spend a few more weeks, delay your gratification (which will be LOW with this gun), save the extra $300 and buy a known decent gun. If all you want is a potential POS to shoot cans at Granny's pond, then drive on.

[Default.mp3]

Sionics is running a sale on their rifles right now. Their most basic rifle (http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store/product.php?id_product=103) is running at 870 USD. Worth a look-see.

[Dagga Boy]

While I have been generally impressed with some of these guns (talked to the SIONICS guy on a couple occasions), and the TROY does have a lot of accessories for the price, I just find it hard to not get a Colt LE6920 for as cheap as they are and a very known entity with solid QC procedures and consistent quality of the important components. I also really like using the 6920's as a base gun to add accessories to as I can pick what I want for rails (usually Centurion these days) and plastic (Magpul, Tango Down or BCM) knowing the rest of the gun is not an issue.

[LOKNLOD]

PSA still has Colt 6720s in stock for $799.99.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/daily-deals/colt-ar-15-5-56nato-16-carbine-pencil-barrel.html

grabagun.com sent a flyer yesterday for the Colt 6920 w/ Magpul furniture for $859. That seems like a pretty good steal.

[Default.mp3]

PSA still has Colt 6720s in stock for $799.99.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/daily-deals/colt-ar-15-5-56nato-16-carbine-pencil-barrel.html

Ha. I was also going to post that up, in conjunction with the Sionics deal, but my cursory search on PSA earlier showed all Colt rifles (besides the .22) as being OOS; guess I should have looked harder. Hell, last month, I had convinced two of my non-shooting friends to pick up the 6720s from PSA 'cause it was such a good deal and a quality product.

[frozentundra]

Thanks for the replies. It is awesome that a guy like me can post a question like this on the internet, and experienced LE, forum staff, and quality instructors take the time to reply. That being said, I decided to order the darn thing anyway:p.

My plan is to get some irons on it and just get a little trigger time on an AR. If I like it well enough, I will invest in a better gun in a few months. I have some real estate stuff that should shake out by that time, and having this gun may help me understand what options I would want in a BCM and accessories with a $2000+ budget. I think it will be easy to get a large percentage of my money back($625 out the door) if I decide to sell it locally at a later time. With any luck, the whole experience might not cost me much more than the price of ammo.

None of this would be necessary if I had cool friends, who owned good guns. Or if I didn't live in the back end of nowhere. I would have to drive many hundreds of miles round trip in order to rent a firearm.

Thanks again for the professional advice. It will help me keep things in perspective.

[Beat Trash]

I would strongly recommend you look at the Colt 6720 on PSA for $799. That plus a transfer fee, and you're not that much over the cost of the Troy gun.

The 6720 makes a great starter gun. As it's built right, all you need to do to make it function is to lube it and load it. For a novice AR shooter, I really wouldn't want to have to deal with questionable QC.
If after some time and training, you find you want to invest in something else, it is much easier to resell a Colt than the Troy would be. And the Colt will hold more of a resale value.

Pick this gun up, then shop around for a black Friday sale on an Aimpint PRO. Even if you decide to buy something else later on, you might find yourself keeping a gun like this as a spare. As for a "better gun" later on, depends on your definition of "better". I carry a 14.5" BCM gun with a mid length ELW-f upper with a 13" KMR rail, an Aimpoint T-1 and various other things, as my Patrol Rifle while at work. This setup performs better for me than a Colt 6720/6920 did in the past. But I am going on vacation for three weeks. A Colt 6720 with an Aimpoint PRO in a case, is getting stuffed in the trunk of the car. Less money invested in that setup, should something happen to it. But if unrest were to break out where I'm at, I still trust this gun to perform if needed.

Not sure I could say the same about a $600 Troy rifle...

[frozentundra]

The specific things I would like out of an AR are probably a little different than for most people. Maybe I should have included an explanation in my original post, but it seemed to complicate the question too much at the time. I should also note that the only AR type rifle that I have even fired was a Bushmaster Carbon 15, and that on only one occasion. I do own several long guns, but only one autoloading military style carbine, an AK variant in 7.62x39.

I own a home on 300+ acres. A large percentage of it is wetlands and open waterways that connect directly to Lake Superior. In the winter when it freezes over, it becomes a super highway for coyotes, and they use it to access my back yard. I can open the window that is next to me right now, and have huge shooting lanes out to at least 250 or 300 yards. I like to ski, hike and snowshoe here, while keeping an eye out for rabbits. I have a friend who has a large field where we can safely shoot out to 4 or 5 hundred yards, just for the hell of it(I have never taken full advantage of this).

Unfortunately there is a public road that approaches within 30 yards of my living room. It leads to some state owned natural areas that are becoming very popular for tourism in the summer(you have to love social media). This leads, at times, to an unbelievable number of random strangers that drive slowly past my house. There is not a lot to divert their attention away from my house as they go by:(. There are no other inhabited structures for over 1000 yards, as the crow flies, and a lot farther by navigable paths. I have had some real shady looking cars/occupants stop in the road and stare/point/talk, until they become aware of me. Many are probably harmless.

So, my thought is to see if I can address all of this with a single AR platform rifle. Then I may not have to deal with multiple long guns residing outside of my clumsy to access secure storage point. I realize having multiple niche rifles would probably be a better solution, but I just don't see myself going that route. The Troy rifle would serve as an inexpensive, cheese ball analog to see if something like a BCM recce rifle would fit my needs. I think that I can borrow a 1-4 optic from a friend. It is also worth noting that I have an astigmatism in my sight eye that makes red dots look crazy.



If after some time and training, you find you want to invest in something else, it is much easier to resell a Colt than the Troy would be. And the Colt will hold more of a resale value. l
I can see the wisdom in this, but in my specific situation I'm not sure it holds true. I have a feeling that I could sell the Troy locally(assuming it runs well) for $450-500, more readily than a Colt for $650, or trade it to a local FFL(who seem to know less than I do about AR's) for equivalent value. Few around here probably know, or care, about the difference between a Colt and a Troy. or DPMS/Olimpic/whatever.

The main thing that I was worried about was avoiding a rifle that is commonly known to have problems at a high rate, or known junk components that I was unaware of. It does not have to be a life or death rifle for my specific purposes at this time. For this price I'm willing to chance it. I will try to update this thread some time in the future if anybody is interested.

[LSP972]

I can see the wisdom in this, but in my specific situation I'm not sure it holds true.

It holds true… whether you're buying a toy, or something you just might suddenly need to defend yourself/homestead with. You have been given good advice and veiled warnings over the possible issues with an el cheapo AR carbine. Its obvious you are not really thinking about what happens when one goes tango uniform- and that's not a criticism, because as you stated, you're new to that game.

Trust me… $800 for a genuine Colt AR carbine (and one of their better configurations, IMO) is a steal. I have one already, and I'm seriously thinking about grabbing one of these

You wrote "For this price…" Really? $200 more buys you a GUARANTEED top shelf quality weapon.

Anyway… good luck.

.

[frozentundra]

It holds true… whether you're buying a toy, or something you just might suddenly need to defend yourself/homestead with. You have been given good advice and veiled warnings over the possible issues with an el cheapo AR carbine. Its obvious you are not really thinking about what happens when one goes tango uniform- and that's not a criticism, because as you stated, you're new to that game.

Trust me… $800 for a genuine Colt AR carbine (and one of their better configurations, IMO) is a steal. I have one already, and I'm seriously thinking about grabbing one of these

You wrote "For this price…" Really? $200 more buys you a GUARANTEED top shelf quality weapon.

Anyway… good luck.

.

I think that I have failed to convey my intent. I want to use this rifle as a training analog for a BCM recce type rifle. I have absolutely no intent to use it for defensive purposes. I want a rifle that has a ff tube that I can rest inside of my window sill and make 250 yard shots. I also want it to weigh about the same as the rifle that I would be replacing it with, so I can see how it works for me in that regard. If this proof of concept goes well I will probably have a better idea which specific BCM model will fit my needs. If/when I order a BCM I will consider keeping that rifle loaded for defensive use. Either way I will likely sell the Troy, and hopefully be out less than $100 for the experience. It would be no more of a "fighting gun" than a SIRT pistol.

It may be that this is just a waste of time, but I can't see buying a Colt 6720, when I am looking for experience shooting as far at 400+ yards with a variable optic, and 250 resting the handguard on my window sill. I hope I am not coming off as having an attitude. I do appreciate the advice and concern. Again, I think I have done a piss poor job of conveying my intent. My Bad.

[TGS]

I think that I have failed to convey my intent. I want to use this rifle as a training analog for a BCM recce type rifle. I have absolutely no intent to use it for defensive purposes. I want a rifle that has a ff tube that I can rest inside of my window sill and make 250 yard shots. I also want it to weigh about the same as the rifle that I would be replacing it with, so I can see how it works for me in that regard. If this proof of concept goes well I will probably have a better idea which specific BCM model will fit my needs. If/when I order a BCM I will consider keeping that rifle loaded for defensive use. Either way I will likely sell the Troy, and hopefully be out less than $100 for the experience. It would be no more of a "fighting gun" than a SIRT pistol.

It may be that this is just a waste of time, but I can't see buying a Colt 6720, when I am looking for experience shooting as far at 400+ yards with a variable optic, and 250 resting the handguard on my window sill. I hope I am not coming off as having an attitude. I do appreciate the advice and concern. Again, I think I have done a piss poor job of conveying my intent. My Bad.

I dont think youre coming off with an attitude at all.

I guess where "we" are coming from is that it doesnt make much sense to buy a questionable proof of concept rifle, when you could buy a solid, top shelf AR for the same price (in the grand scheme of things).

At the same time, if youre not even considering it for defensive use and only nailing predators from 250+ yards, then rock on. Realistically, it will probably fill that role well. However, it probably isnt a good proof of concept for a varminter. You might be able to get 3.5"-4" groups at 250yards, but there are much better options for a varmint AR than a GP carbine.

[BWT]

There's a fairly reputable company that's newish named Sionics that has a Mid-length AR for that price range.

http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store/product.php?id_product=103

I'm just thinking if you're going to stretch your legs to 250-300 then a lightweight profile isn't ideal.

Same with BCM. I like BCM but Sionics prices are where BCM's used to be. YMMV.

ETA: Also you can get a VLTOR A5 systemfrom the factory for an additional $50.

Lifetime warranty... I'm reluctant about the fancy finish on the BCG but right now they're free with their uppers.

You could buy a complete lower (http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store/product.php?id_product=99) for $229 and upper with BCG, BCM charging handle Mod 4, and MOE handguards for $509 (http://sionicsweaponsystems.com/store/product.php?id_product=99).

That's $733.

[frozentundra]

I dont think youre coming off with an attitude at all.

I guess where "we" are coming from is that it doesnt make much sense to buy a questionable proof of concept rifle, when you could buy a solid, top shelf AR for the same price (in the grand scheme of things).

At the same time, if youre not even considering it for defensive use and only nailing predators from 250+ yards, then rock on. Realistically, it will probably fill that role well. However, it probably isnt a good proof of concept for a varminter. You might be able to get 3.5"-4" groups at 250yards, but there are much better options for a varmint AR than a GP carbine.

I'm curious as to other cost effective ways to have a 1/7 or 1/8 twist barrel with a 13ish" ff handguard that doesn't have a fixed front sight and plays nice with a low power variable. Something that I'm not likely to loose more than $100 or so on if I decide an AR really isn't going to work for my purpose.

I *think* that a BCM RECCE 16 or 18(possibly stainless barrel) with KMR rail, white light, and low power variable is what I want in the long run, but that seems like way to much to invest considering my limited experience. It could be a great big hairy disappointment. Is every AR that is not a "top shelf" gun always a waste of resources? Or can buying a nice Colt 6920 sometimes wind up being the waste of resources? Honest question.

Edit to add: didn't see above post, thanks for the links

[TGS]

I'm curious as to other cost effective ways to have a 1/7 or 1/8 twist barrel with a 13ish" ff handguard that doesn't have a fixed front sight and plays nice with a low power variable. Something that I'm not likely to loose more than $100 or so on if I decide an AR really isn't going to work for my purpose

Well, there's Josh's upper i mentioned earlier.



I *think* that a BCM RECCE 16 or 18(possibly stainless barrel) with KMR rail, white light, and low power variable is what I want in the long run, but that seems like way to much to invest considering my limited experience. It could be a great big hairy disappointment. Is every AR that is not a "top shelf" gun always a waste of resources? Or can buying a nice Colt 6920 sometimes wind up being the waste of resources? Honest question.

Good question.

Waste? Not in my opinion. But for the rifle youre buying, a general purpose carbine, the price difference between a questionable AR15 and a solid one is pretty small. Purchasing this instead of a rifle of known quality could be penny wise, pound foolish, IMO.

When talking about a non-defensive sporting gun, It makes a little more sense if youre looking at buying a DPMS varmint gun vs a Noveske or Larue. The price difference is quite severe between the two, the DPMS would still give nice accuracy, and the qualitative advantages of the larue or joveske might not be relevant or appreciated to someone whose just looking to pop predators at intermediate ranges.

In that case, I'd say rock on...enjoy it.

[LSP972]

I have absolutely no intent to use it for defensive purposes.

Well, okay.

That part in post #14 regarding shady characters, etc., is a bit misleading.

But given your detailed explanation in the quoted post… wouldn't you really be better off with a bolt gun???

No attitude detected by me; just spirited discussion. No problems here.

.

[frozentundra]

Well, okay.

That part in post #14 regarding shady characters, etc., is a bit misleading.

But given your detailed explanation in the quoted post… wouldn't you really be better off with a bolt gun???

No attitude detected by me; just spirited discussion. No problems here.

.

Yeah, I had intended to make that clear.

I'm terrible at writing. I'll try to put it a different way. I'm strongly considering the possibility of using a BCM RECCE 16 KMR(or similar), with a low power variable optic, as catch all gun for: home defense, coyote smacker(up to 300 rested), 4-500 yard plinking(for fun), hiking around property, even whitetail or rabbits.
Having no experience with the AR platform, I would like to pick up a cheap rifle that would mimic some of the features and dimensions of a RECCE type rifle. I could use it to familiarize myself with the AR manual of arms, and make a more informed purchase of the "REAL" rifle if I still think the concept is sound. Either way I would probably just divest myself of the Troy rifle, and hopefully not be out of pocket more than $100 + ammo costs, and ahead by 3 months of hands on experience that I need to make an informed decision.

I think I already have my answer, that this is probably one of the best bargain basement deal available. Nobody started posting links of pissed of customers with horror stories, or badly out of spec parts.

I do have bolt guns that are fully capable of smacking coyotes, but I get sick of paying for .264 win mag, .22mag does not always reach, 30-06 seems overkill.

I guess I am also trying to find a reason to finally own an AR. It's just so American. New and Sexy(to me).

My AK will remain my go to HD gun for the duration of this winter regardless. It's stupid simple and tolerates the cold well. Like me.

[LittleLebowski]

I bet it wil be fine. Please keep us updated.

[Preacher]

I own one of the earlier (2012) model Troy AR's and it is a fine rifle with good fit and finish. Mine is only a range toy, but has given me no problems at all. I'm a very new shooter so I just may not know any better. I have given it to shooters more experienced with the AR platform, and they don't have anything bad to say about it (and they are the sort that would tell me if there was something about the build or performance that they didn't like). None of them were fond of the Battleaxe stock, but they did admit that it was not uncomfortable for shooting.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I bet it wil be fine. Please keep us updated.

I think the same.

Incidentally I have a Recce 16 with X300u, TR24 and Duecks, although it's a year old and consequently came with a quad rail instead of a KMR.

It does everything I want except be as short as my 12.5.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

Yeah, it's not like it's hard to fix things on an AR. This could be a fun thread, checking carrier key staking, spring inserts, spring length, buffer weight, and so on.

[frozentundra]

I am already needing additional advice.:rolleyes:

Ammo: I need some inexpensive <100 yard ammo for drills. Also want some heavier ammo to begin my attempt at longer ranges(just messing around at first). There are way too many options in .223/556, and I am out of my depth.

Lube: A Google search for AR lube is a good way to make yourself dumber!!!! It's currently about 12 degrees on my glassed in sun porch and were still in November. Most of my shooting will likely be done at temps between 20 and -5. It is quite possible that I will never fire this rifle in ambient temps above freezing. How should this effect my choice of lube? Should I just pick up a bottle of Fireclean that seems to be the new hotness?




I own one of the earlier (2012) model Troy AR's and it is a fine rifle with good fit and finish. Mine is only a range toy, but has given me no problems at all. I'm a very new shooter so I just may not know any better. I have given it to shooters more experienced with the AR platform, and they don't have anything bad to say about it (and they are the sort that would tell me if there was something about the build or performance that they didn't like). None of them were fond of the Battleaxe stock, but they did admit that it was not uncomfortable for shooting.

Thanks for the feedback. I think that stock is UUUUUGLY, but if it doesn't function as bad as it looks then I guess I don't care.

[LittleLebowski]

Ammo: wolf or whatever's cheapest around you unless you're buying online, and then just buy Wolf brass cased or Hornday steel cased.

Lube: Slip2000 EWL (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00635VIY8/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B00635VIY8&linkCode=as2&tag=ratio07-20)

[Wondering Beard]

For "heavy ammo", 75 to 77 gr bullets (your rifle has a 1/7 twist barrel, right?). For the rest, 55 gr will do just fine.