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View Full Version : Trigger Reset - The Discussion



beltjones
07-29-2011, 09:03 AM
This could get heated, as people are pretty dogmatic on both sides of the issue. I just want to remind everyone that the results are on the target, not on the computer screen, so let's do our best to keep it civil. :D

Some people believe in "riding the reset" or "riding the link" or whatever you want to call it. Essentially the technique is to only let the trigger out to the reset point as the gun is recoiling - to feel the click - and in that manner have the gun ready to shoot again when the sights are re-aligned.

Others go 100% the opposite direction - preferring to let the trigger all the way out and "slap" it for each shot.

Still others let the trigger out past the reset, but perhaps they don't take their finger off the trigger between shots, and then prep the trigger or "take the slack out" as the sights re-align.

Now, I know that everyone pays attention to different things depending on what is required to make a given shot. On very close, wide open targets, perhaps you can get away with slapping. On more precise shots you may pay more attention to the click of the reset, or the feel of taking up all the slack. It's the latter I'm more concerned with.

So the question is, when precision at speed is required, what technique are you using? Do you pay attention to releasing only to the reset point, or do you prefer to let the trigger out past the reset point, and then pay attention to taking out the slack "all the way to the ragged edge," as it were? Or are you one of the rare people who slap the trigger for even precise shots? Again, it should be obvious that we're not talking about the first shot out of the holster or after a reload or something.

I considered doing a poll, but I thought an actual discussion would be more meaningful.

TCinVA
07-29-2011, 09:28 AM
Others go 100% the opposite direction - preferring to let the trigger all the way out and "slap" it for each shot.


I can't do that without introducing full-on Atlanta Braves style tomahawk levels of anticipation. If I break contact with the trigger between shots there's a better than even chance that my results on target are downright embarrassing.

As a technique, the break-contact and slap method of reset works better with some guns than with others. A 1911 with a light trigger held in a vice-like grip? Sure. You can slap a 4 pound trigger on a 2.5 pound handgun held in a gorilla grip all day long and it won't move the gun much. If you do that a minimum of 100,000 times a year on the range you probably won't anticipate much either, so you'll be very accurate and probably very fast. Try a different gun with a longer and heavier trigger pull and it becomes much more difficult to get those results.



So the question is, when precision at speed is required, what technique are you using?


I pretty much have one trigger reset technique: I try to catch the trigger more or less at the reset point during recoil. When I buy a new carry gun I practice resetting the gun in dryfire to get the general feel of where my finger needs to be to make the gun work. With something like a Glock it's easy. With something like the P30 using the LEM it's a bit more difficult so I tend to overshoot the reset point by just a smidge just so I can ensure that I don't short-stroke the reset. Whether I'm going for max speed on a wide open or precise target, my reset speed doesn't change...I'm doing that as the pistol is cycling in my hand. It cycles at the same speed no matter what size the target is, so that bit doesn't need to change. The part that changes (assuming I'm not mucking it up) is the speed of my trigger pull and the condition of my sights. On a wide open target at close range I do more of a "yank" on the trigger to get it fully to the rear. I have the mental thought "now" and the gun goes bang without really feeling what the trigger is doing. On a precise target (which can be any size depending on range, available light, movement, etc....) I need to feel myself pressing steadily through the trigger. In other words, if I think "now" and the gun goes boom without any conscious awareness of what the trigger pull felt like then I probably "yanked" the trigger and probably missed because of anticipation.

Corvus
07-29-2011, 09:51 AM
Some people believe in "riding the reset" or "riding the link" or whatever you want to call it. Essentially the technique is to only let the trigger out to the reset point as the gun is recoiling - to feel the click - and in that manner have the gun ready to shoot again when the sights are re-aligned.


I attempt this method.

Simon
07-29-2011, 10:21 AM
Does "riding the reset" require a stronger trigger return spring, or do you train your finger to move forward a certain distance? I ask this because of shooting a S&W revolver and the need to get off the trigger when using a light trigger return spring for DA only. I have never done any serious speed shooting with a semi auto, and have not thought about this.

VolGrad
07-29-2011, 10:22 AM
I second everything TCinVA posted.

I don't see any reason for this discussion to get heated. Like you said the proof is on the target and everyone gets there differently. There are some well known slappers that can shoot circles around most all of us. It works for them but NOT for me. I took a class last Fall which had a primary and adjunct instructor present. One was a big time slapper and the other was a reset rider. Not big deal though as both were tack drivers. In the past year I've taken classes from Hack, LAV, Todd, Lund & Litt, and a few others. I seem to recall all discussed the reset point and being familiar with it, maybe not riding it like a horse but knowing and working it during recoil.

My request for names was simply out of interest as I've not experienced/read/heard/etc. of any big names actually teaching or encouraging slapping or even ignoring the reset point. I think Todd pointed out in the other thread there are some that focus less on reset point while focusing on simply maintaining contact with the trigger surface. Maybe that's where the confusion on my part lies. Maybe I misunderstood what your OP about this topic was about.

ToddG
07-29-2011, 10:48 AM
Ironically enough, I've been on the phone with Ernest Langdon while this thread started and we were discussing the same thing.

Speaking only for myself, though, I don't consciously ride the link because I believe it leads to higher odds of short stroking and trigger freeze. That's especially true if you have to wear gloves or, oh I don't know maybe have some stress.

Neither do I purposely let my finger go far forward of the reset point. The more the finger has to move, the more you risk disrupting the sights.

It's a matter of finding the right balance. Basically, I try to "ride the reset plus a little bit." That little bit is the margin of error when my finger moves a 16th less than it should have.

Re: slapping, there are certainly folks who do it and advocate it. In my experience, most of those folks run all steel 1911 pistols with trigger pulls measuring well below two pounds. I wouldn't consider a trigger that light appropriate for anything but playing games … and personally I wouldn't even use one then.

Train hard & stay safe!
Todd Louis Green, pistol-training.com (http://pistol-training.com)
Speed is the essence of war. Sun Tzu

beltjones
07-29-2011, 10:53 AM
A little background: When I first started taking pistol shooting seriously, naturally I followed what everyone on the internet said to do. When it came to trigger technique, the internet-approved method was to keep the trigger pinned, then release it only until it clicks, then take the next shot.

Later, when I got into practical shooting, I took a class with one of the TDSA schools, and was summarily told to forget all about "riding the reset." Their method is to let the trigger almost all the way out as soon as the shot breaks, and then take the slack out during recoil - all the way up until in only requires a "bump" to break the shot.

From that point on I have made it a habit to ask everyone I meet in classes or at matches what kind of trigger technique they use. I've noticed that, while there are still a few high level guys I've personally asked who still "ride the reset" (Angus Hobdell and Gordon Carrell come to mind), the rest are all of the opinion that one should let the trigger out and focus on getting the slack out between rounds. Notable names who espoused this technique are Manny Bragg, Frank Garcia, Kale Garretson, Antoine Lane, Yong Lee, Bobby McGee, and a couple other GMs who aren't coming to mind. Interestingly, Manny called riding the reset "1970s technique." I haven't met the man, but what Bill Rogers teaches on his training DVD is similar to this technique as well.

Anyway, just fuel for the discussion...

jetfire
07-29-2011, 10:58 AM
When I really got serious about this whole "shooting" thing, I was shooting primarily DA revolvers. Because of the way my revos were set up, I'd actually lose contact with the trigger somewhere during the reset. I changed up the trigger return spring to get an even faster reset on the gun so that it would almost push my finger off it during reset so I could shoot the gun faster. When I was shooting the Sig P250 earlier in the year, I definitely would get off the trigger during the reset; mostly because the gun's reset was measured in glacial ages. With Glocks, 1911s, and now the Timberwolf, it's more like what Todd described. I don't consciously ride the reset, I just let the trigger out until it's ready to shoot again and then shoot it. My finger stays in contact with the trigger the whole time during the motion, but I'm not thinking about "catching" the gun at the reset.

My problem when I try to "ride the reset" is that sometimes my finger will tell me "shoot" when the sights are saying "don't shoot", so I've been trying to teach myself that my eyes are smarter than my index finger.

DonovanM
07-29-2011, 11:59 AM
I really shouldn't talk about the technique that I use, because I had no less than 4 episodes of trigger freeze at my last match, but that was when hosing. I don't take my finger off the trigger for more precise shots. I don't listen to the audible click or anything, I just know my trigger well enough to know how much to let it out again.

However, I did ask this guy how he does what he does:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUsoixEgkog

I know it doesn't sound like it, but he is putting two shots on each target, and yes he is shooting USPSA Major PF ammo. The split on the 3rd target in the last array is a .08, and apparently he hits below .10 with regularity :eek:

I know this is an extreme case of hosing, but the technique he recommended to me sounds like it would work everywhere else as well. He uses a strong trigger return spring and as short a reset as possible. He relaxes his trigger finger in between shots and doesn't use muscles to row it forward, just lets the trigger return spring dictate how much his finger needs to move forward again (note: obviously this will not work with Glock-style triggers). I think that's brilliant and am definitely going to practice it. I don't think there's anything wrong with my split times but going faster is always good :D

On the other hand, the best USPSA/IPSC shooter ever - Rob Leatham - says reset doesn't matter and slaps the crap out of everything he runs.

JV_
07-29-2011, 12:42 PM
Basically, I try to "ride the reset plus a little bit."That's what I do.

ToddG
07-29-2011, 04:06 PM
Donovan -- Can't see the email in TapaTalk with my iPad, so I'm jumping to some conclusions here that might not be fair but...

I have a hard time believing anyone can adequately track and call his sights performing 0.08 splits. The technique you mentioned might work when you're thinking in advance to hit a high-probability target from a static or near-static position and you have great recoil management. Furthermore, what happens during longer strings of shots on a single target? The muzzle is going to keep rising if the gun isn't incredibly flat shooting.

Basically, you're talking about a gun set up to hammer almost by itself. Great for gun games where most targets are high probability and most targets call for two shots per, etc. Beyond that, I'm skeptical. But if you set a gun up that way, definitely let us know what you think.

Dagga Boy
07-29-2011, 06:30 PM
Trigger reset saved my shooting program. Of course I am always using some ancient technique, but I know the stuff I use works for sure when it counts. When I went to LAPD Metro D Platoon (SWAT) in 1989 to steal their shooting program for my agency, I ran into a huge issue. The LAPD guys were using 1911's. My guys shot Sig P-220's. My people could not pass their qual course. It mostly involved controlled pairs and failure drills, so the DA/SA transition was killing both me and my guys. Around the same time I watched some high speed video (this was very whiz bang back then) of Tommy Campbell shooting. The way he worked the trigger with the reset was instrumental in us using the reset method to be able to manage the DA/SA transition. Using this method, we were able to improve our shooting enough to be able to pass the LAPD SWAT Qual courses. It also helped me a ton when shooting competitively. This was especially true of the police matches where I was shooting a duty gun out of a level three security holster.

I pretty much teach the reset plus a little method to the L/E folks. For me personally, I have changed some stuff after a very tough class with Larry Vickers. I reset in recoil. All of my Glocks are set up with all stock parts that have a little more take up on the initial shot and a very short reset at the factory 5.5lb. weight. This is the best set up for me on a daily carried street gun. There is a huge difference between shooting a street gun with L/E trigger weights vs. a steel 1911 with a trigger pull weight that is below the weight of the gun itself.

mc1911
07-29-2011, 06:34 PM
Riding the trigger out to the reset:

I never had done that until a friend of mine showed me on his Glock. I used to shoot 1911s and of course that doesn't work on those. Since my friend was a better shooter than I, I gave it a try. But I and some friends did it at a class with an instructor I won't name at Universal Shooting Academy and when he saw us doing that he called everything cold and stopped the whole class. He said that he is open to people trying things but when it comes to that technique, he said absolutely not. Trigger prep, period. He said that riding the reset was an out-dated and inferior technique.

Since he is better than I will ever be, I got on board with what he said and I've been shooting the best I ever have since then. The trigger freeze that Todd mentioned can be a real problem using the other method. I have by no stretch mastered the technique of prepping, but even what I am able to do produces far better results than riding the reset.

mc1911
07-29-2011, 06:38 PM
Interestingly, Manny called riding the reset "1970s technique."

Ok, I wasn't going to name Manny but then I saw beltjones post this so I'll come clean. This is exactly what Manny said to us.

Simon
07-29-2011, 07:46 PM
After reading the response, I see that my question should be in another thread, however what I got out of this is that if you "ride the reset" you are going to need a strong trigger return spring to keep from short stroking the trigger. I think what I do is get off the trigger, then prep it during recoil. I hope you guys don,t get to upset with me, but I see that my competitive experience is years out of date, and we don't use the same terminology.

SLG
07-29-2011, 07:48 PM
I fall into the "slap everything" camp, whether it's my 5# 1911 or my 10# sig DA shot. I don't do this because it's the best way, I do it because it works for me. Until Leatham pointed it out to me, I had no idea that's quite what I was doing. From a teaching perspective, I agree with Todd, though I usually tell people that as long as you don't slam through the pull, coming off the trigger during reset will not hurt you. The issue is how fast you get back to where you want to be, not how short a distance your finger moves.

What will hurt you is hunting for the reset point, both because of the freeze factor, as well as the limit it places on your speed.

Odin Bravo One
07-29-2011, 07:59 PM
Like SLG, I too fall into the "Slap the snot out of it" group.

I started out shooting a G22 in my initial pistol shooting days and was taught about the reset thing. Then I switched to a DA/SA Sig about 15 years ago, and was taught to slap the trigger. I have been slapping ever since. Todd G brought it up at an AFHF a couple of years back, and I gave the reset thing another test run throughout the duration of the course and about 2 weeks after.

Times on drills were but a wee bit slower, and not really attributed to the technique so much as my consciously having to work on the technique. I switched back to slapping the trigger because it is what I am comfortable with, and it works ok for me. It works really great on my toy guns like the 1911's, but I am just as effective with the technique on my run of the mill, daily carry DA/SA Sig.

As brought up by the OP, the results are downrange. I don't care how someone came to the end result, so long is it was effective. If it's not effective, then perhaps looking for a better way is in order. Until then, roll with what works.

Wheeler
07-29-2011, 09:52 PM
In regards to S&W revolvers, with the caveat that all my guns are stock internally, the reset is full trigger extension, anything shorter will result in short stroking which will cause the gun to skip a cylinder. Of course a different trigger return spring will affect the speed at which that happens.

I tend to shoot every gun I pick up like a revolver. In other words I allow the trigger to reset at the full position. My finger never leaves the trigger. I've always considered "slapping the trigger" the process in which a shooter's finger leaves the trigger during or after full reset and then returns to the trigger. This usually results in a difficulty to manage recoil and proper sight alignment.

Wheeler

DonovanM
07-30-2011, 01:31 AM
Donovan -- Can't see the email in TapaTalk with my iPad, so I'm jumping to some conclusions here that might not be fair but...

I have a hard time believing anyone can adequately track and call his sights performing 0.08 splits. The technique you mentioned might work when you're thinking in advance to hit a high-probability target from a static or near-static position and you have great recoil management. Furthermore, what happens during longer strings of shots on a single target? The muzzle is going to keep rising if the gun isn't incredibly flat shooting.

Basically, you're talking about a gun set up to hammer almost by itself. Great for gun games where most targets are high probability and most targets call for two shots per, etc. Beyond that, I'm skeptical. But if you set a gun up that way, definitely let us know what you think.

FWIW, I agree. I'm not aiming to duplicate these results but I'm interested to see how just relaxing my trigger finger will change things.

Odin Bravo One
07-30-2011, 05:35 AM
For clarification purposes, by "slap" I mean finger coming completely off the trigger, as Wheeler described it.

beltjones
07-30-2011, 07:23 AM
It's a real testament to this forum that this discussion isn't getting heated. Try telling some old Gunsite guys that you don't "ride the link." You better have two escape plans and someone who expects you home at a certain time, otherwise you may die of old age before they're finished telling you all the ways you're wrong. :p:p:p

joshs
07-30-2011, 07:37 AM
I do something in between letting the trigger all the way out and letting it out to some point slightly ahead of the reset point. I never come all the way off the trigger, but I don't consciously try to get my finger to a certain point because, for me, this always slows me down due to the increased tension it causes in my trigger finger.

Jay Cunningham
07-30-2011, 08:21 AM
I'll give my opinion from the Vickers Shooting Method POV.

When teaching newer shooters, I make it a point to teach a very definite hard reset - press the trigger and hold it to the rear, after the weapon cycles let the trigger out to reset and no further.

Now the trick is... once my students understand the whole concept of the trigger and how it resets and that lightbulb goes off, it's time to wean them off just as fast and get them into resetting the trigger during recoil.

Remember I deal with fundamental level shooters (and so far my track record in getting them up to speed is pretty good) so guys like Todd, nyeti, and SLG may be referring to a little bit of a higher level technique... which I am all for exploring when you get there skill-wise.

JConn
07-30-2011, 09:59 AM
Now the trick is... once my students understand the whole concept of the trigger and how it resets and that lightbulb goes off, it's time to wean them off just as fast and get them into resetting the trigger during recoil.

FWIW I think that this might be the most important part. Whether you ride the trigger or "slap" it as long as you're ready to shoot as soon as an acceptable sight picture is acquired after recoil, I'm not sure how you got there matters as much. This is assuming the results are positive.

For me, coming off the trigger during recoil made me faster and more accurate.

Dagga Boy
07-30-2011, 12:03 PM
I'll give my opinion from the Vickers Shooting Method POV.

When teaching newer shooters, I make it a point to teach a very definite hard reset - press the trigger and hold it to the rear, after the weapon cycles let the trigger out to reset and no further.

Now the trick is... once my students understand the whole concept of the trigger and how it resets and that lightbulb goes off, it's time to wean them off just as fast and get them into resetting the trigger during recoil.

Remember I deal with fundamental level shooters (and so far my track record in getting them up to speed is pretty good) so guys like Todd, nyeti, and SLG may be referring to a little bit of a higher level technique... which I am all for exploring when you get there skill-wise.

This is one of the best things I got from LAV. I was in an invite only advanced marksmanship class and another well established instructor and I both had the light bulb with Larry that we were capable of resetting during recoil. We had been teaching the hard reset for so long to our students that we were constantly in "demo" mode. Larry's accuracy standards combined with his evil timer forced us to compress what we did to keep our rounds in the black on the bullseye targets while still beating the timer requirements. For what its worth, an instructor from a well known NSW unit know for training with the competition folks could never keep up in the class. He had some of the fastest "twitch" reflexes I have ever seen, and was un-Godly fast.....he just couldn't make the accuracy side. Everybody is a little different in what works for them. For me, the reset is part of my follow through, and is a "control" issue for me. I have full control on the trigger, but I also look at every single shot as a single event and single process. This is not everybody elses world. I guess spending my entire adult life trying to stop cops from "hosing" influences that.

GJM
07-30-2011, 02:55 PM
It's a real testament to this forum that this discussion isn't getting heated. Try telling some old Gunsite guys that you don't "ride the link." You better have two escape plans and someone who expects you home at a certain time, otherwise you may die of old age before they're finished telling you all the ways you're wrong. :p:p:p

Not sure my comment belongs here in this thread, but this Forum has a very polite tone to it. It is very refreshing to have folks that are serious about this topic, are active shooters, and can discuss things, often disagreeing, while not being disagreeable.

jar
08-01-2011, 12:02 PM
I shot an interesting match yesterday and was thinking about this thread. The match is a memorial for a local shooter who passed last year. He shot all of the different pistol disciplines, so the match is one stage each of: IDPA, USPSA, steel challenge, falling steel, and PPC. In the most of the stages, I used a mix of mashing the crap out of the trigger on close wide open hoser targets and resetting the trigger all the way out but not losing contact with the trigger face on targets needing more accuracy. On the PPC stage, I took advantage of the generous par times to use the traditional ride the reset method. I think all of the methods have a place.

jslaker
08-02-2011, 12:13 AM
Something I noticed while shooting my LEM USP is that I seemed to be more prone to anticipation if I was consciously riding the reset. I found that I seemed to have fewer issues when allowing the trigger to come back out past reset a bit before initiating another trigger press. Much closer to the partial release others have described than full-on trigger-slapping either way. It's my suspicion that that the extra travel was making the break a bit less obvious to me, hence being less likely to dive the muzzle.

JodyH
08-02-2011, 02:51 PM
I just try to press and reset the trigger as fast as possible without disturbing the sights beyond what's required to make the shot.
That may be a deliberate reset or it may be a slap.

double-Tapatalk

Adam
08-02-2011, 05:35 PM
Release to reset. It might not be perfect each time, but that is definitely what I shoot for. I hadn't shot a 1911 in quite a while, but my uncle was in from GA and brought his Wilson. I shot it well and got used to the reset quickly. He started yanking the trigger on our Glocks and didn't get the same positive results. Good trigger discipline and using the reset is transferrable between lots of triggers while poor technique might get you by with one system and be full of fail with another.

Slavex
08-02-2011, 11:49 PM
When I first learned the reset drill (riding the reset) it was an eye opener and group reducer. I practiced it hard for years, but found I could never get below .20 doing it. Learning to reset under recoil changed all that. I think that in order to learn to do the reset under recoil properly and without inducing a post ignition push, one needs to master riding the reset first, so that one can learn exactly what is happening.
If at a match I suddenly find myself missing steel at 25yds or more I'll slow down and revert back to riding the reset on those targets. Then when done, pick the speed back up and continue on.ng a post ignition push, one needs to master riding the reset first, so that one can learn exactly what is happening.
If at a match I suddenly find myself missing steel at 25yds or more I'll slow down and revert back to riding the reset on those targets. Then when done, pick the speed back up and continue on.