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View Full Version : To ASP or not to ASP, that is the question.....



secondstoryguy
11-22-2014, 06:18 AM
After asking many of my coworkers and lots of members of other agencies it seems that most have never used their baton and when they have it was less than effective. This is starting to make me think about ditching my baton. I have only used mine to break windows a couple of times and now have other tools for that job. Are there any street cops or former street cops on PF that have ditched their ASPs or other batons?

Chuck Haggard
11-22-2014, 06:30 AM
For a lot of reasons, including their training program, I think ASPs suck, and I mean in a very bad way.

This is part of the problem with cops thinking "batons suck" though, equipment does make a difference. If you carried a Raven .25 as a duty weapon then you might think pistols also suck and start to think about getting rid of your handgun on duty as well.

I carry a full sized baton on every call I go on where there is any potential for violence. GOOD baton training and a good baton are very effective, and one thing they are effective at is getting people to stop thinking stupid thoughts just by being in your hand.

Coyotesfan97
11-22-2014, 06:54 AM
I ditched my ASP long ago. It's in one of the drawers in the back of my Tahoe. If I think I need a baton on a call I carry my PR24. I'm one of the few that still do. Back in the pre ASP days I never got out of the car without it.

wilco423
11-22-2014, 09:48 AM
I stopped carrying my ASP a few years ago. Since I mostly work nights, I almost always have a SL20 in my support hand anyway, so the ASP seemed redundant. That, and I haven't heard of them being particularly effective.

ST911
11-22-2014, 10:43 AM
Haven't carried an ASP on the bat belt in many years, but there is one in the truck. I've found more use for it in some plain clothes tasks. Batons largely went away when Tasers hit the road in volume. Echo Chuck and Coyotesfan, a more conventional baton (esp some of the side-handle/PR24 techniques) can make quite a statement.

BobM
11-22-2014, 11:52 AM
I think the PR-24 was a much better tool than the ASP. We issue ASPs and are required to carry two non-deadly force options on the belt. Choices are ASP, Taser, or OC.

jnc36rcpd
11-22-2014, 01:18 PM
Expandable batons are an example of the triumph of convenience over practicality. Granted, it takes a moment to drop a PR-24 or a straight baton into a ring as you exit the cruiser, but a full-size baton has much more "stopping power" than most expandable baton. Coupled with training programs that emphasize hitting the suspect without injuring him and you are destined for an expandable baton that proves as useful as a callbox key. I was the last holdout with a PR-24 in my agency, but the lack of recertification programs took that tool (which was practically a jnc36rcpd trademark) away.

The primary reasons for retaining expandable batons seem to be liability based. If a department mandates that officers carry expandable batons on their belts, it reduces the risk that an officer shot a suspect because the baton was left under the headrest of the cruiser. OK, copy that, but if expandable batons are issued or authorized, training needs to be more intense and more realistic including closed baton techniques. We need to accept the fact that while it would be preferable not to fracture a suspect's elbow or knee, that is a small price to pay compared to the officer losing the fight or having to escalate from an ineffective baton to deadly force.

This said, I would be intrigued to examine the RCB Peacekeeper which is marketed as a heavier baton than ASP/Monadnock/PPCT offerings and weights the baton toward the front. That might--and I emphasize might--be a practical alternative to what most of us carry.

secondstoryguy
11-22-2014, 04:15 PM
The only reason I've kept mine to this point is a lawyer arguing that I didn't go to it before I went to guns. I've seen the Peacekeeper (we have someone that is an instructor for them) and an have played with it a bit on a pad. Someone was thinking right when they made that bad boy, it's a beast.

saints75
11-22-2014, 04:52 PM
As soon as my department policy changed on batons, I ditched my department issued ASP. I am using a Monadock Auto Lock baton now. It is better then the ASP baton. I would like to get a Peacekeeper baton. I have played around with it. I like it. Maybe one day.

John Hearne
11-22-2014, 04:56 PM
After an incident in which I went through two Taser cartridges, half a can of OC, a Happy Gilmore baton strike, and still wrestled dude on the ground, I still believe in carrying every intermediate option I can. Our policy requires a baton and one other intermediate with most carrying just a Taser and no spray. I like my 26" Monadnock Auto-lock but would happily try one of the heavier options. I still like OC but prefer the spray, run, and wait method of application.

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KeeFus
11-22-2014, 06:53 PM
I carry it only because of policy. Everytime Ive used it od seen it used it was less t han effective. Dont carry a Taser either. SL 20 is my impact weapon of choice since its always in my support hand or in a loop on my belt.

czech6
11-22-2014, 08:20 PM
I carry a 26" RCB that I have a love hate relationship with. It's size and weight make it effective and also make it a boat anchor to carry. I've broken a suspects leg with it, it's capable of causing serious injuries, and that turned into a long use of force investigation. Since I was issued a Taser I haven't used my baton. I keep thinking about dropping from my belt.

I say no to an ASP. With the number of cameras out there, I think that there's too much risk in carrying a baton that's not brutally effective. No baton deployment looks good, but if I'm going down for using a baton on someone I'd rather it be for hitting them once and breaking their leg, than hitting them 12 times and leaving a bunch of welts and bruises.

psalms144.1
11-22-2014, 09:30 PM
Our policy says agents "should" carry their ASP baton whenever armed in a duty status. I take that to mean it's optional, so mine stays in my training bag so I have it when I teach our annual baton "recertification."

We're even worse off in that our batons are the 16" version, which make a pretty darned good roll of quarters for closed mode strikes, but aren't worth a darn for striking anyone with, and don't offer any real "reach" advantage during open mode strikes.

I have a HIGHLY unauthorized Winchester baton which rides in one of the pockets of my vest "just in case," but, frankly, I wish HQs would just pull them from the field. As it stands, I see them as useless, and I've NEVER seen an agent carrying one in normal day-to-day around the office.

ST911
11-22-2014, 09:43 PM
We're even worse off in that our batons are the 16" version, which make a pretty darned good roll of quarters for closed mode strikes, but aren't worth a darn for striking anyone with, and don't offer any real "reach" advantage during open mode strikes.

Is it the standard weight 16" (poor), or the airweight (even worse)?

HCM
11-22-2014, 10:40 PM
Any of y'all have experience with the Bonowi Camlock baton?

https://m.facebook.com/OPSGEAR/posts/383090445092914

Dr. No
11-22-2014, 10:54 PM
I fought an amateur MMA fighter solo for approximately 3-4 minutes over 5 blocks. Two taser cartridge deployments which failed to connect (clothing & a miss while he was running). We then started into the ground fight where I discovered he was skilled. I struck him upwards of 20 times in the arms with a lightweight ASP. He rolled off and pushed off the ground and continued to run. I tackled him again and applied a drive stun to his back because he would not remove his hands from under his body. I gave him another 5 seconds behind his ear and he finally submitted. I broke both his arms, his elbow, and one of his hands. While he was still able to run, he could no longer fight effectively because his limbs were disabled. He was experienced enough with pain to be able to fight through it, just like we are trained to do with OC.

Like with any less-lethal device, it is not a magic stick. It does not instantly subdue the crook and put them in handcuffs for you. I think the dramatic taser incapacitation has ruined expectations on what a less lethal device will do for most guys.

The baton never ran out of batteries or malfunctions. The baton never contaminates myself and my partners for 2+ hours. The baton is extremely effective when used correctly.

I ditched my OC long ago. My baton will always stay as a LL option along with my taser.

Chuck Haggard
11-23-2014, 06:44 AM
We don't have enough Tasers to go around so even though I am a Taser instructor I don't have one now because I keep giving mine away to one of the troops.

I would never get rid of my OC or baton because those have for a lot of reasons been more reliable and more effective than the Taser.

Coyotesfan97
11-23-2014, 07:39 AM
If I don't have my PR24 I'll have my Pelican 8060 with me. The chances are that if I dont have my baton I'll either have a four legged force applicator on leash or nearby in my car too. Our use of force chart has a K9 bite on the same level as baton and Taser. But I'll have to justify the bite a lot more then a Taser.

I'm with Chuck. I'd rather have OC and a baton than a Taser. I've solved a lot of problems with OC. It's a lot lower on the UoF chart then a Taser.

Chuck Haggard
11-23-2014, 08:43 AM
OC is pretty good at multiple person use, and quickly, and tends to separate the really serious assholes from the folks that might be dangerous but ain't hardcore and wanting to put up with pain to try and hurt the cops.

My last such use was a melee of a bar fight that spilled out into the parking lot where I OC'd over 20 people, ran the can dry and had to transition to stick. Several of the participants were local white supremacist wanna-be MMA thugs with enough training to be very dangerous to the average dude or street copper with no ground experience.

psalms144.1
11-23-2014, 01:28 PM
Is it the standard weight 16" (poor), or the airweight (even worse)?Standard weight - so, like I said, it at least makes a decent roll of quarters for a punch...

jnc36rcpd
11-23-2014, 06:03 PM
I understand the appeal of the Taser, but we're running about a 50% failure rate (granted, out of a small number of annual deployments). Some of this is training which I am trying to correct, but much is the nature of the beast. You have no control over what clothing the suspect is wearing or the precise location that probes hit (e.g.: the heavy unzipped jacket or the shirt underneath).

Our OC (originally Bodyguard 5% and now Sabre Red) has been highly effective. It also allows for multiple deployments which is helpful if the suspect doesn't get a full dose or you have multiple offenders. As Chuck suggests, it is highly effective had moving the less motivated mopes away from the action.

Chuck Haggard
11-23-2014, 10:14 PM
Our Taser failures have been in the 50% range as well.

czech6
11-23-2014, 11:19 PM
Overall our Taser success rate is around 70%. Most suspects that get Tased give up as soon as they feel pain or they are overwhelmed by the sensation of pain and won't fight back while the power is on. The last guy I tased, had about 6" of probe spread on his abdomen. He was drunk and we had to cuff him under power, but the Taser wasn't producing NMI that would affect his arms. The success rate with Tasers on motivated or messed up individuals who really want to fight is really low, probably less than 10%. One part of that is that a motivated individual isn't inclined to give up his back. The other is by policy we've moved Tasers just below deadly force and by the time the officer can use the Taser, the opportunity to deploy the Taser into the suspect's back and achieve effective NMI is usually not there. When Tasers are used on these individuals, even if both probes connect it's usually in the front of the body with less than 8" of spread, there's very limited NMI, and pain compliance isn't going to work.

I like Tasers, for most suspects that give up at the first signs of pain they are great. I think they highly over rated on the really motivated individuals that are going to fight.

jnc36rcpd
11-24-2014, 02:12 AM
While we train our troops to go for a back shot if possible, frontal and chest deployments are still authorized. As usual, however, it comes down to training. We have been emphasizing cuffing under power. If you watch a few episodes of any reality cop show, you will quickly see someone get the taser treatment which has to be repeated because no one jumped in to cuff the suspect.

Recently, I watched a YouTube video that involved multiple taser activations. One officer attempted ineffectual hands-on while the other officer stood back to witness ineffectual taser cycles. One could hear the taer cycle which indicates a bad connection. Had the taser officer stepped forward and established a third point of contact, it might have been a much shorter and better video. Tasers are great. but we need to step up our training.

Coyotesfan97
11-24-2014, 03:45 AM
Tasers are the same level as impact weapons for us so if I can hit someone with a baton I canTaser him. OC is just above verbal commands for us. I'm surprised more suspects aren't taken to jail with orange faces.


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czech6
11-24-2014, 11:58 AM
W
Recently, I watched a YouTube video that involved multiple taser activations. One officer attempted ineffectual hands-on while the other officer stood back to witness ineffectual taser cycles. One could hear the taer cycle which indicates a bad connection. Had the taser officer stepped forward and established a third point of contact, it might have been a much shorter and better video. Tasers are great. but we need to step up our training.

Officers failing to help out each other is a huge problem in use of force incidents in general. Either there are a bunch of popcorn eaters standing around and the little switch to engage hasn't been flipped. Or there's an officer that's too amped up or can't see that what he's doing is ineffective and the popcorn eaters have flipped the blue falcon switch, stand around and won't stop him.


Tasers are the same level as impact weapons for us so if I can hit someone with a baton I canTaser him. OC is just above verbal commands for us. I'm surprised more suspects aren't taken to jail with orange faces.

By far and away the most painful experience that typical police recruits have in training is OC exposure, for a lot of recruits that's one of the worst experiences in their lives. I'm not surprised that a lot of officers are adverse to using OC.

We used to have OC just above verbal commands and at the same level as soft empty hand, that's a good place for it. A lot of idiots got sprayed, but there were very few injuries to suspects or officers. And many fewer incidents of officers applying hard empty hand strikes. If the officer is going to use OC, he's in a better position to have a little distance to reduce incidental exposure and a little time to dance around, let the OC start to work and let the excess OC settle out of the air. We moved OC to same level as hard empty hand, and it rarely gets used, at the point officers can use OC the have used soft empty hand control, seamlessly escalated to hard empty hand and are just too close and engaged to use OC effectively and not get cross contaminated. Plus they are at the point where they can escalate to Taser or baton.

Coyotesfan97
11-24-2014, 02:56 PM
I'll have to agree with you on how recruits are generally exposed to OC. The more the merrier seems to be the theme.

I have no problem with requiring them to do tasks after the exposure. The exposure itself can be a short blast leaving a strip across the nose and eyes. It's counterproductive to cover their whole face with it. I've seen OC dripping off faces when I've observed exposures at the academy. Sometimes the goal of the training is overlooked.

The other thing I don't like about first time exposures is the lack of a decent decon afterwards. I'm all for showing field expedients methods with a garden hose. But I'm also good with showing the wonders of straight original Dawn soap and paper towels.



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Chuck Haggard
11-24-2014, 04:13 PM
Officers that are adverse to OC have undergone poor training and are carrying a poor mindset from the experience because of it.


Dawn is one of the worst decons one can use for OC, it adds to the effect on one's eyes. Baby shampoo is a far better choice in soaps, or using the Saber decon, it's the only commercial product on the market that actually works.

John Hearne
11-24-2014, 04:56 PM
It seems that as the subject becomes more combative (and you need it to work more) the Taser becomes less effective. The chain of events required for a Taser to incapacitate is a lot longer than "pull trigger, subject drops." In my incident, my excessive grip on the Taser was enough to disconnect the battery immediately after deploying the probes. That's one thing I like about the X2 versus the X26 - the X2 seems more robust.

Where the Taser falls in relation to other tools seems to be under revision with the Taser being constantly bumped up. Based on court decisions, for us, the Taser getting really close to the baton and is probably greater than hard hands techniques at this point.

We just had an unfavorable decision regarding the use of the Taser on a mildly fleeing/non-cooperative misdemeanor subject. I suspect that if the person had been sprayed instead of tased, it would have gone in the agency's favor. Of course, it would have been worse for the suspect but that is a nuance the courts seem incapable of grasping.

Coyotesfan97
11-24-2014, 07:13 PM
I've never used baby shampoo but I've always heard good things about it. I need to look at the Sabre decon. All the other ones I've tried were ineffective.

HCM
11-24-2014, 07:20 PM
+1 on the baby shampoo for OC de-con

KevH
11-24-2014, 11:23 PM
To answer the OP's question...

I've bent two 26" ASP's in the past eight years. They're better than nothing, but not great.

If you must have a baton that collapses the Peacekeeper series is pretty good, although also pretty heavy.

The PR-24 has gone out of vogue and to be honest most cops don't know how to use them well.

I prefer a 29" hickory straight stick. Tried and true they work well.

David Armstrong
11-26-2014, 12:39 PM
I like the ASP, carried one for years and used it a lot. Never had any problems with it (21", standard weight) and still carry a 16" today in civvie clothes. I'll agree it isn't as good as a standard straight stick, but given that so many officers tend to leave the straight stick in the car, IME, I think it is a good choice.

czech6
11-26-2014, 01:05 PM
We used batons last night to pry a mether's arms off of a light pole that he was bear hugging, on the side of the freeway. He was on who knows how many days of a bender and thought that devil was coming for him, his soul was damned and that he was going to burn in hell. Given the burning in hell comments, OC spray would have been a terrible idea. Given the amount of scrutiny given to excited delirium deaths and Tasers, that was a last resort. Haven't done this in a while, using a baton as a lever gives the officer a huge mechanical advantage over a suspect demonstrating low level resistance. Meaning that an officer(s) to gain control over a suspect without using strikes, chemicals or electricity, and not give the appearance of "beating people for no reason".


(while not authorized, this would have been a great situation for a Taser training cartridge with alligator clips. Hook one up to his pants at the wasitband and the other on his sock, and have an officer standing by with his Taser in hand. If things went bad, there's enough spread to get NMI and at least take his lower body out of the equation, and the appearance that there is no electricity anywhere near his heart.)

baddean
11-26-2014, 06:49 PM
One of our lead instructors is a retired LEO and tells a story about use of his baton in demonstrating the use of a non lethal tool.
He and another officer were guns on a suspect who would not comply with their orders to get down on his knees. He wouldn't comply with any of their orders.
Finally our instructor holstered his gun (while the other officer stayed guns on) and deployed his baton. With that the suspect immediately got on his knees and complied.
Later in the car he asked him what the hell was that about and the suspect said he knew they wouldn't shoot him but he was afraid he might beat him with that stick.
I find a baton useful for a number of different defensive purposes other than just as a striking weapon.

jnc36rcpd
11-26-2014, 09:43 PM
I watched a 2003 or so episode of "COPS" recently in which a Spokane PD sergeant chased an auto thief on foot with his PR-24 drawn and held by the short handle. As I recall, his command included "Get down or I'll hit you" and "Get down or I'll hurt you". It looked like he brought the suspect down with a swing of the PR like a straight stick. This seemed way more effective than most current techniques.

I have often considered that suspects would be inclined to comply is commands included a threat to beat or hurt the suspect. "Stop resisting" just doesn't seem to get it. Of course, "Chest on the ground or I will beat you" will need to be clearly written in lesson plans and general orders before I say it on the street.

Chuck Haggard
11-26-2014, 09:58 PM
One of our lead instructors is a retired LEO and tells a story about use of his baton in demonstrating the use of a non lethal tool.
He and another officer were guns on a suspect who would not comply with their orders to get down on his knees. He wouldn't comply with any of their orders.
Finally our instructor holstered his gun (while the other officer stayed guns on) and deployed his baton. With that the suspect immediately got on his knees and complied.
Later in the car he asked him what the hell was that about and the suspect said he knew they wouldn't shoot him but he was afraid he might beat him with that stick.
I find a baton useful for a number of different defensive purposes other than just as a striking weapon.

I've been involved in incidents like this too many times to recall. Many a suspect will dare a copper to shoot him, I've never heard anyone ask for a crack in the knee with a stick.

JackRock
11-27-2014, 10:14 AM
...the suspect said he knew they wouldn't shoot him but he was afraid he might beat him with that stick...

I had an MP friend back in my Army days, and she said that they often used the dogs in a similar fashion, when chasing a fleeing suspect. A cop might shoot and miss, she said, but the dog WILL outrun and take the guy down. So they threaten to loose the dog, and that often brings the guy to a halt.

John Hearne
11-27-2014, 10:36 AM
A cop might shoot and miss, she said, but the dog WILL outrun and take the guy down. So they threaten to loose the dog, and that often brings the guy to a halt.

While chasing a guy on foot after a vehicle pursuit, a guy I worked with screamed to his partner to "watch out, the dog's coming" The suspect heard this and did a head first baseball slide to assume the prone position. There was no dog.

SeriousStudent
11-27-2014, 12:31 PM
While chasing a guy on foot after a vehicle pursuit, a guy I worked with screamed to his partner to "watch out, the dog's coming" The suspect heard this and did a head first baseball slide to assume the prone position. There was no dog.

Nice! :D

psalms144.1
11-27-2014, 02:00 PM
I was on Courtesy Patrol in the Madigan Club (Ft. Lewis' very own bucket of blood junior enlisted club) when a 6'6", 275-300# Mortarman decided to take on all comers (never did hear what set him off, but boy he went off BIG!) After he'd clubbed down most of the interested parties, two MPs and I tried to reason him into submission. At one point I was on the kid's back, doing my best to put a chokehold on a dude with no neck when he grabbed one of the MPs (who at the time had been WHOOPIN the kid's common perronial with a stick of some sort) and flung him a good 8' across the room into the wall - MPs feet never hit the ground during the transit. At that point, I figured I'd be writing reports for a week as we would have to shoot this kid to get him under control...

Enter the K9 unit. One "woof" was all it took to get this 6'6", 250# infantryman on his knees, meekly lacing his fingers behind his head, while imploring "PLEASE don't let the dog loose, sir, please!"

Needless to say, that left a lasting impression on me.

Coyotesfan97
11-27-2014, 03:32 PM
While chasing a guy on foot after a vehicle pursuit, a guy I worked with screamed to his partner to "watch out, the dog's coming" The suspect heard this and did a head first baseball slide to assume the prone position. There was no dog.

There's been several times Patrol has gotten suspects to surrender while I'm heading to the scene with my dog. They're doing dog announcements that are a lot more vivid then mine are.

People surrender a lot just by mentioning the dog. Put a Dutch Shepherd behind a suspect with a DOC parole violation warrant with cautions and watch him be handcuffed without incident.

Compliance goes way up when I take my dog out of the car. The same thug who was talking crap,not listening , and telling Officers to shoot him almost handcuffs himself when the door pops. Of course once the handcuffs are on the shit talk starts again.

Every know and then you see a gamer but not very often when a patrol dog is present.

PD Sgt.
11-29-2014, 07:40 PM
Am I the last guy to carry a fullsize Mag-Charger flashlight?

I realize it has a limited reach, but I figure it more than makes up for that in mass and energy transfer. Our issued batons were 16", so it realistically only gives up about 3" to the baton. It also does not have to be expanded for use, so it deploys quicker. If I am talking to a group of knuckleheads, it allows me to keep a light on them as well as an immediately available impact weapon if needed. With a Malkoff drop in, it is much improved in the light department.

I also carry a Surefire Fury 3 cell as well as a X300u on my duty pistol. I also carry chemical spray and a Taser. To be honest, it has been years since I have had to use it against anyone, but it was always effective, and more so than the lighter weight ASPs we also issued (I have seen at least 3 bend in use).

Chuck Haggard
11-29-2014, 08:43 PM
I was actually teaching a block of instruction for many years of the flashlight as an emergency impact weapon.

CanineCombatives
11-29-2014, 11:58 PM
I really must find the time to make some contributions here, great stuff, for now I'll just say the only thing an asp is good for is searching suspects
you really don't want to be groping on for hard objects, other than that, worthless, I've beaned dudes on the mellon with it and watched it fly 30ft
through the air as it bounced off.
And man do I have some K9 stories:o

jnc36rcpd
11-30-2014, 09:22 AM
We also authorize flashlights as impact weapons. I have much more faith in my MagCharger as a baton than I do my expandable baton. That said, most of the advances in flashlight technology have been in smaller lights. I've used a Surefire 6P with Malkof upgrade, a Surefire Fury, and now a Surefire Lawman as my primary lights for the last several years. With the new 600 lumen Magcharger, however, I may have to consider carrying a fullsize light again.

I will remark that the NAACP attempted to have Maglites banned by the county police because they felt the lights could be used as "potential assault weapons". Working in Maryland, I'm used to things being called assault weapons that really aren't assault weapons, but a flashlight?

John Hearne
11-30-2014, 09:55 AM
If you want a good dual purpose flashlight, search for the SL-35. I used one for years, before super bright leds, as it punched through tint really well. Think six cell Maglite but really, really bright.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

czech6
11-30-2014, 11:44 AM
I will remark that the NAACP attempted to have Maglites banned by the county police because they felt the lights could be used as "potential assault weapons". Working in Maryland, I'm used to things being called assault weapons that really aren't assault weapons, but a flashlight?

We bring it on ourselves. A lot of agencies and officers set themselves up for failure by not training to use a flashlight as an impact weapon, and stupidity ensues. Or training is a sentence on a power point, "the flashlight will only be used as an impact weapon in emergency situations." Instead there's some old head telling the rookies about the good old days, when he thumped some good old boy in the noggin with his good old metal light. The rookies have a laugh, imagine themselves thumping some bad guy in the head and a little seed of predisposition gets planted. I've seen a disproportionate number of bad guys that have been hit in the head with a flashlight, sometimes it's justified, but most of the time it comes down to a little stress and the officer reverts back to "training" which in this case is take a head shot. Later if you ask the officer he did that, it's usually some variation of "it seemed like a good idea at the time."

Or some idiot officer decides to help out by randomly swinging his flashlight at exposed limbs and heads in a pig pile. It's a life changing experience when you've snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, and while riding to the hospital in the back of ambulance with in agonizing pain due to a misapplied can of OC, a fractured femur from a flashlight above the knee and know exactly what it feels like to get your ass beat by the police.

0331king
11-30-2014, 12:15 PM
Any of y'all have experience with the Bonowi Camlock baton?

https://m.facebook.com/OPSGEAR/posts/383090445092914

I carry a GTEK which is or was the Bonowi import name and is vastly superior to an ASP in every way. It hits hard, closes easy transfers a good amount of energy. The rubber grip is cheap and I had mine sprayed with Rino bed liner. Probably not as good as a Peacekeeper but a decent baton.

I have considered ditching the baton or pepper spray (Fox Labs) at various times but I always go back to keeping them. In my mind the more options I have the better, within reason.

David Armstrong
11-30-2014, 01:39 PM
I really must find the time to make some contributions here, great stuff, for now I'll just say the only thing an asp is good for is searching suspects
you really don't want to be groping on for hard objects, other than that, worthless, I've beaned dudes on the mellon with it and watched it fly 30ft
through the air as it bounced off.
And man do I have some K9 stories:o
Perhaps understanding what an ASP is good for is dependent as much on the user as it is the object? I have used an ASP for decades without any notable failures. If you "bean dudes on the mellon with it" and it flew 30 feet I would suggest you have apparently done at least two things incorrectly.

CanineCombatives
11-30-2014, 05:52 PM
I began carrying one on my duty belt in 89 and discarded it around 96, my thoughts on it remain that it's absolutely worthless for anything other
than a search/probe tool which doesn't justify the weight and room it takes up on a duty belt. As an impact weapon it was an utter failure against
violent non compliant suspects.
I would say enlighten me but we are in the age of the taser now which unless we are talking crowd control, has pretty much rendered impact weapons
obsolete in modern day law enforcement wouldn't you agree?

jnc36rcpd
11-30-2014, 06:40 PM
czech, we specifically authorize the flashlight as an impact weapon. Officers are trained and expected to use it as they would a baton. While policy and training cannot eliminate the risk of someone flailing madly about with the light or baton, we feel it reduces the chances.

John, I would agree that the length of the SL-35 makes it a better impact weapon than the SL-20 or MagCharger.

Canine, while I agree that tasers and OC spray have reduced the need for impact weapons, I think they will always have a place. Tasers and OC tend to be imprecise weapons in dynamic confrontations (which accounts for the 50% failure rate). Their effectiveness is also reduced in close quarters. I wouldn't want to go on the street without an impact weapon.

Coyotesfan97
11-30-2014, 07:06 PM
I carry a Pelican 8060 but I've been looking at the new Maglite LED. I wouldn't give up an impact weapon. Everyone is issued a Taser here and they are over relied on.

If I don't have my PR24 I have my large flashlight with me. The only way I'd be hitting at the suspects head was a deadly force encounter.

The impact weapon I wish I could carry is my Dad's old sap 2818


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CanineCombatives
11-30-2014, 08:20 PM
Ironic you put it that way, the incident where the ASP went flying off the guy's head ended up as a fatal shooting.

I reached a point a long time ago on the street where impact weapons were more of a hindrance than a help to me in fights,
especially against really dangerous and determined suspects, but this is a result of several factors unique to me, so I respect
opposing viewpoints.

ToddG
11-30-2014, 09:30 PM
Working in Maryland, I'm used to things being called assault weapons that really aren't assault weapons, but a flashlight?

The legal definition of machinegun in Washington DC includes any semiautomatic firearm capable of firing or being modified to fire more than 12 rounds without manually reloading. In other words, a Glock 27 is a machinegun (because it's capable of accepting 12+ round magazines).

Shellback
12-01-2014, 03:01 PM
Everyone is issued a Taser here and they are over relied on.

This incident happened not too long ago down in Phoenix and mates up well with your post. NOTE: A few swear words in the video.


http://youtu.be/mwyfYLg0HzE


PHOENIX — A video capturing a violent struggle between police and a man who died has been released.

According to AZ Family, Phoenix police officers were involved in the deadly struggle at a restaurant on Sunday. The incident began when a male restaurant employee reported a man, 38-year-old Edward Michael Caruth, acting strangely and mumbling to himself

As seen in the video, two police officers attempted to subdue Caruth after he resisted being placed in handcuffs and fought the officers. A TASER was deployed, but did not stop the suspect. The struggle eventually spilled into the restaurant's parking lot.

"He (the employee) indicated to 911 that this suspect had been in the business for quite a while, was scaring the employees," said Officer James Holmes of the Phoenix Police Department. "He had gone into a restroom, barricaded himself in the restroom and then turned on the water faucets causing the restrooms to flood."

The suspect also damaged the restaurant's counter area, and tried to access the back kitchen, but was stopped by an employee wielding a knife.

The suspect was TASERed at least four times by the two officers. Two additional officers responded to the incident and struggled with the suspect.

Two officers were injured in the struggle. Caruth was treated for injuries at the scene, and later died after being transported to a hospital.

Caruth's cause of death has not been determined.

psalms144.1
12-01-2014, 04:04 PM
This incident happened not too long ago down in Phoenix and mates up well with your post. NOTE: A few swear words in the video.The fail is strong in that video, on SO many levels I'm afraid to even start the discussion.

1. I'm overweight. I know it. I need to drop 20 pounds, and 40 would be better, so I REALLY hesitate to talk about anyone else's physical condition. BUT, when you're so heavy that you can't bend over to try to get cuffs on a guy, it's probably time to find a new line of work, or a duty position that puts you away from situations where your lack of fitness threatens your safety and the safety of your partner.
2. It's pretty clear to me that the primary contact officer in that video either never got taught how to speed cuff, or forgot the first thing that was hammered into me over and over when I was a "baby" - "if they're going to fight, they'll fight after the first cuff is on." This video is a perfect example of a guy who was fairly compliant until the bracelet closed, then went full Hulk. I didn't do the "one mississippi" thing once the cuff was on, but the cuffing was so hesitant I was screaming at the video for the contact officer to hurry the kitten up.
3. It looks to me like those two officers either have never had, or have completely forgotten any empty hand fighting tactics.

And, finally, I LOVE AMERICA! There had to be half a dozen able bodied kids there, who stood around watching a couple of police officers (who I'm assuming THEY called for help) get man-handled, and all any of them did was pull out their kittening smart phones to videotape the events. God Bless 'em all!

TR675
12-01-2014, 04:23 PM
1. I'm overweight. I know it. I need to drop 20 pounds, and 40 would be better, so I REALLY hesitate to talk about anyone else's physical condition. BUT, when you're so heavy that you can't bend over to try to get cuffs on a guy, it's probably time to find a new line of work, or a duty position that puts you away from situations where your lack of fitness threatens your safety and the safety of your partner.

One of the sadder sights I've ever seen was watching four or five morbidly obese, >5'6" lady DART cops try to cuff a single skinny homeless guy. It looked a little something like this...


http://youtu.be/POhvh_hrq6E

David Armstrong
12-01-2014, 05:23 PM
I began carrying one on my duty belt in 89 and discarded it around 96, my thoughts on it remain that it's absolutely worthless for anything other
than a search/probe tool which doesn't justify the weight and room it takes up on a duty belt. As an impact weapon it was an utter failure against
violent non compliant suspects.
If you are misusing the weapon it does not surprise me that one would feel the weapon is worthless. That does not change the fact that thousands of officers have used it correctly and it has done the job.

I would say enlighten me but we are in the age of the taser now which unless we are talking crowd control, has pretty much rendered impact weapons
obsolete in modern day law enforcement wouldn't you agree?
No, I would not. The Taser does not take the place of the stick and far from being obsolete the stick still can serve as an excellent tool for the officer. In fact, if I were on the streets today and had to choose, I'd take the stick over the Taser without a second thought.

Chuck Haggard
12-01-2014, 06:03 PM
I currently carry a stick and OC, but not a Taser, even though I am a Taser instructor.

To add to that video above, the indicators are there for that being an excited delirium incident. Anyone who hasn't fought someone in ExD has no idea what it's like.

Bigguy
12-01-2014, 06:14 PM
And, finally, I LOVE AMERICA! There had to be half a dozen able bodied kids there, who stood around watching a couple of police officers (who I'm assuming THEY called for help) get man-handled, and all any of them did was pull out their kittening smart phones to videotape the events. God Bless 'em all!

As a non-LEO, I hesitate to even post on this thread. It is rare that I'd have any relevant experience or insight. But that observation right there seems to point right to the crux of most posts on this forum. It appears to me that the American citizen of the 21st century is being taught/programed that the proper response to almost anything is to call the "experts." Movies, Television, and certainly the main stream media teaches us to go hide and call the police. After all, they are the experts and know what to do. We'd just make the situation worse by getting involved.
I don't think anything will get better until or unless citizens again invest themselves in the community. Until the idea of citizenship includes defending, not only yourself, but all innocents. Until citizens are more concerned with freedom and the vague idea of "right" than of safety. And of the many things that will have to occur for that to happen may be a change in the way, at least some, LEOs view citizen involvement. I'm not suggesting Batman style vigilantes. But possibly some version of the posses of western lore.
I understand there will be increased risk with untrained citizens involved in dangerous situations. But the founding fathers didn't fight for safety. They fought for freedom. It's inconceivable that they didn't expect their progeny to feel the same way.
I realize that this is FAR outside the box. The powers-that-be, the main stream media, and certainly the liberal elite would fight this tooth and nail. Though I've thought about this for some time, I still have no idea how to implement it. It feels as though the biggest hurdle is not a police state taking away the right of citizen responsibility, but rather of a large segment of the citizenry demanding to be relieved of that responsibility.

TR675
12-01-2014, 06:26 PM
^^^ You know...as a citizen and a non-LEO, getting involved is not my job and I'm reluctant to criticize anyone whose default reaction is to watch, slack-jawed, some cops fighting with a bad guy.

Having said that, I like to think that I would get involved if (1) asked to help by the officer or (2) the officer's life was clearly at risk.

What I am not inclined to do is dog pile on top of a crazy person without an express invitation to do so, because that seems like it would have a greater potential for misunderstanding and tragedy than not...

CanineCombatives
12-01-2014, 07:00 PM
If you are misusing the weapon it does not surprise me that one would feel the weapon is worthless. That does not change the fact that thousands of officers have used it correctly and it has done the job.

No, I would not. The Taser does not take the place of the stick and far from being obsolete the stick still can serve as an excellent tool for the officer. In fact, if I were on the streets today and had to choose, I'd take the stick over the Taser without a second thought.


Oh I see now, it was my misuse of the weapon that rendered it completely ineffective, had I known how to deploy it correctly I could have had suspects subdued and wimpering for their mommy in mere seconds. Thank you for that insight. And I'll bet I could assemble a panel of force on force combatives experts who would unanimously support your assertion that a stick is a vastly more effective and safer tool against violent non compliant suspects than a taser and would never serve to cause an escalation in the level of force required to secure the arrest, wait, no I couldn't.

But hey, it's a discussion forum right, carry on......

SeriousStudent
12-01-2014, 08:12 PM
I currently carry a stick and OC, but not a Taser, even though I am a Taser instructor.

To add to that video above, the indicators are there for that being an excited delirium incident. Anyone who hasn't fought someone in ExD has no idea what it's like.

I am looking forward to your presentation on that topic at the Rangemaster Conference next year.

KeeFus
12-01-2014, 09:22 PM
And, finally, I LOVE AMERICA! There had to be half a dozen able bodied kids there, who stood around watching a couple of police officers (who I'm assuming THEY called for help) get man-handled, and all any of them did was pull out their kittening smart phones to videotape the events. God Bless 'em all!

A couple months ago we had a murder at a local shop-n-rob. Two Hispanic drunk dudes get pissed at one another and one whips out his blade and stabs the guy a few times. Victim walks around the front of the store and is just standing there in a well lit area that is covered by cameras. He is obviously bleeding then all a sudden he falls. Instead of helping the poor guy folks (even the store clerk) took out their phones and started taking pics and filming.

I've never carried a Taser. Never will unless policy changes and dictates that I do it. The newer guys seem to think its the go-to problem solver. I don't. We have had several failures...at a rate close to 50%. OC has a way better ratio than that. We carry MK2 by Def-Tec. It may not be the hottest but it has not let me down yet. Frankly, the only OC failure I ever had was with Cap-Stun back in the 90's...and that guy was high as a kite...but the SL-20 worked rather well.

Chuck Haggard
12-02-2014, 04:16 AM
Oh I see now, it was my misuse of the weapon that rendered it completely ineffective, had I known how to deploy it correctly I could have had suspects subdued and wimpering for their mommy in mere seconds. Thank you for that insight. And I'll bet I could assemble a panel of force on force combatives experts who would unanimously support your assertion that a stick is a vastly more effective and safer tool against violent non compliant suspects than a taser and would never serve to cause an escalation in the level of force required to secure the arrest, wait, no I couldn't.

But hey, it's a discussion forum right, carry on......

CC, you stated yourself that you went for a head shot and in the process lost your baton. Both of those tidbits of info would raise red flags in our in-house UOF reviews (we treat every single UOF like a mini shooting review board here...) and among any competent baton instructor I have ever met.


Ref your imaginary panel, I know of no competent UOF expert that would recommend abandoning batons. None. And I am in the business of staying on top of such trends.

Shellback
12-02-2014, 04:42 PM
And, finally, I LOVE AMERICA! There had to be half a dozen able bodied kids there, who stood around watching a couple of police officers (who I'm assuming THEY called for help) get man-handled, and all any of them did was pull out their kittening smart phones to videotape the events. God Bless 'em all!

I get what you're saying, I do. However, they wouldn't have called the cops if they could've handled it by themselves. A couple of scared kids who maybe weigh 110 lbs soaking wet aren't going to jump into a fight where they see 2 police officers, who are professionals, who have been trained, who have a bat belt full of tools getting worked by some aggro dude. They're doing what they're often told to do by the police and that's to be a good witness.

CanineCombatives
12-02-2014, 06:40 PM
Chuck, not making a case for abandoning batons, just my opinion of the ASP based not only on that incident but several others.

psalms144.1
12-02-2014, 09:29 PM
While I think the ASP is a tool of limited usefulness (especially 16", airweights, and, God forbid, the combination of both), I do agree that a USEFUL baton is something every officer should be trained on, equipped with, and have easily accessible.

Chuck Haggard
12-03-2014, 03:25 AM
Chuck, not making a case for abandoning batons, just my opinion of the ASP based not only on that incident but several others.

Gotcha.

The ASP baton, and the ASP training program, are the reason why so many coppers think "batons suck" IMHO. I had such conversation yesterday. How anyone can think that impact weapons in general suck when they have been effectively used for at least tens of thousands of years is to have a very narrow view of the world.

Dr. No
12-03-2014, 10:02 AM
Gotcha.

The ASP baton, and the ASP training program, are the reason why so many coppers think "batons suck" IMHO. I had such conversation yesterday. How anyone can think that impact weapons in general suck when they have been effectively used for at least tens of thousands of years is to have a very narrow view of the world.

A little bit of Kali training goes a long way. A lot more than 'whack a bag' training we get now.

DI1
12-03-2014, 10:12 AM
There is nothing wrong with airweight ASP batons, especially the 21" Airweight.
You need to know how to apply the tool correctly. With the airweight batons it is all about TIP SPEED. The 16" ASP batons are not a great length, but are better impact weapons than your bare hands and will not break as easily as your knuckles and bones.
I don't think that ASP training is very good, but if you get some additional training on your own in Kali or Escrima you will quickly learn that even a rattan stick that weighs only a few ounces can cause great damage.

1slow
12-03-2014, 10:50 AM
Gotcha.

The ASP baton, and the ASP training program, are the reason why so many coppers think "batons suck" IMHO. I had such conversation yesterday. How anyone can think that impact weapons in general suck when they have been effectively used for at least tens of thousands of years is to have a very narrow view of the world.


I have never worked law enforcement so take this with a grain of salt.
It seem that LE administration want you to use a baton in a manner that is sub optimal, hitting large muscle groups and then give you an ASP which seems too light for this.
They the total history of how to effectively use a stick.

I was taught "knife seeks flesh, stick seeks bone.'' It seems that if you are using a baton as a striking tool, especially a light baton, that you get better effect hitting bone than large muscle groups. The exception to this is thrusts to the solar plexus and abdomen which seem effective.
A light baton applied to hands, wrists, elbows, insteps, ankles, knees hurts a lot and can break things if necessary.
Something like a peroneal strike to the side of the thigh seem to work better with a heavier baton.

45dotACP
12-04-2014, 06:27 PM
A little bit of Kali training goes a long way. A lot more than 'whack a bag' training we get now.

I am very interested in how effective FMA would be for a police using an ASP...has it been useful to you? I do enjoy you sharing your experiences relating to BJJ in LE applications. Would something like Kali or Escrima be a useful skillset for a police officer to have?

Chuck Haggard
12-04-2014, 09:08 PM
One of my mentors is a Monadnock International trainer, and a Kali guy, crazy good with a baton or stick of any kind.

DI1
12-05-2014, 09:55 AM
I am very interested in how effective FMA would be for a police using an ASP...has it been useful to you? I do enjoy you sharing your experiences relating to BJJ in LE applications. Would something like Kali or Escrima be a useful skillset for a police officer to have?

Kali and/or Escrima would be exteremely beneficial! Not only for stick use, but also for knife offense/defense.

David Armstrong
12-08-2014, 01:01 PM
Oh I see now, it was my misuse of the weapon that rendered it completely ineffective, had I known how to deploy it correctly I could have had suspects subdued and wimpering for their mommy in mere seconds. Thank you for that insight. And I'll bet I could assemble a panel of force on force combatives experts who would unanimously support your assertion that a stick is a vastly more effective and safer tool against violent non compliant suspects than a taser and would never serve to cause an escalation in the level of force required to secure the arrest, wait, no I couldn't.

But hey, it's a discussion forum right, carry on......
Sorry, but if you are basing your findings on beaning dudes on the melon (an incorrect use of the tool) and the fact that when you used it that it then went flying 30 feet through the air (again indicating improper use) I can only assume you are misusing the tool. Regarding stick verus Taser and use of force experts, if you want to have that discussion I'm more thanhappy to do so, but since nobody AFAIK has said anything about comparative effects, safety, etc. I'm not sure what the point is other than to toss out a red herring hoping someone tries to eat it.

David Armstrong
12-08-2014, 01:04 PM
CC, you stated yourself that you went for a head shot and in the process lost your baton. Both of those tidbits of info would raise red flags in our in-house UOF reviews (we treat every single UOF like a mini shooting review board here...) and among any competent baton instructor I have ever met.


Ref your imaginary panel, I know of no competent UOF expert that would recommend abandoning batons. None. And I am in the business of staying on top of such trends.
Ditto. One of the things I have noticed and approve of highly is the number of young officers who are going back to the stick as a result of realizing the limitations of the Taser.

Chuck Whitlock
12-10-2014, 12:25 AM
My ASP is in my bag rather than on my belt. I would go go back to the PR-24 if I could find a re-certification course. The handful of times I did use it on resisting drunks, it had no immediate effect. I imagine they were pretty sore when they sobered up in jail the next day, but it didn't help in the moment.

Chuck Haggard
12-10-2014, 06:34 AM
One of my going away presents for the guys on my job is that next week I am doing a PR24 instructor class for some of them.

I am seeing a renewed interest in the PR at my job, even among the younger troops.

psalms144.1
12-10-2014, 10:41 AM
I would rather have a straight stick, even if it ONLY rode on my "tactical" set up that I use for planned operations, than my 16" ASP that never leaves my G-ride because, frankly, it serves no useful purpose for me.

Having been through the ASP instructor course and FLETC's Control Tactics instructor course, and having done a little Escrima work in my youth, I would say that what I learned in dabbling in Escrima seems SIGNIFICANTLY more useful than anything I learned from ASP or FLETC, when it comes to using any kind of blunt force weapon...

abu fitna
12-13-2014, 09:20 AM
This was an interesting discussion. I have not had cause to think about a less lethal impact weapon in a long time. Originally was issued an ASP as it was someone's good idea fairy to have as a less lethal option for some maritime boarding work, but it was not quite as practical to employ in typical confined interior spaces (let alone effectiveness debates, but a PR24 would have been right out entirely). For some work in the Middle East had them around in order to deal with the angry crowd in the marketplace type scenario, but thankfully never needed to be used for that.

Only way I personally ever used the things were to break vehicle windows, or for break & rake at some target buildings. I might still have one buried deep in a pelican box somewhere that shows that wear and tear.

Chuck Haggard
12-13-2014, 09:31 AM
Actually the PR24 is superb in confined spaces, vastly better than a straight stick, due to the side handle design allowing one to use really effective jabs either one or two handed.

I've lost track of how many times I have taken my PR into a bar fight, domestic, etc. that was indoors.

SLG
12-13-2014, 10:55 AM
Actually the PR24 is superb in confined spaces, vastly better than a straight stick, due to the side handle design allowing one to use really effective jabs either one or two handed.

I've lost track of how many times I have taken my PR into a bar fight, domestic, etc. that was indoors.

I imagine that abu fitna is talking about ship compartments, which certainly add another level of confinement compared to what we deal with here. Not just employment, but the inevitable banging on hatches and such. FWIW, I've used a straight stick to jab with more often than not, and don't find the lack of a side handle to be a problem for that application.

CanineCombatives
12-13-2014, 02:34 PM
Anyone see the recent video of the philly cop getting his stick taken by the perp and used on him, escalating it to a deadly force shooting?
I know I know, improper execution of retention techniques right?

SLG
12-13-2014, 02:42 PM
I haven't seen the video and I'm being a bit tongue in cheek here, but I think the best retention technique with a baton is beat the other guy silly.

Chuck Haggard
12-13-2014, 04:57 PM
I imagine that abu fitna is talking about ship compartments, which certainly add another level of confinement compared to what we deal with here. Not just employment, but the inevitable banging on hatches and such. FWIW, I've used a straight stick to jab with more often than not, and don't find the lack of a side handle to be a problem for that application.

I'm more than happy to use jabs with the straight stick, but IMHO the side handle and some practice put some +P into the jab

SLG
12-13-2014, 05:04 PM
I'm more than happy to use jabs with the straight stick, but IMHO the side handle and some practice put some +P into the jab

Absolutely no argument here.

Remind me to tell you next week about the guy I "killed" with a PR-24.

Truthfully, I always hated the 24, and used it more often as a step ladder than an impact weapon.

Coyotesfan97
12-13-2014, 06:00 PM
The last time I used my PR24 was a jab to the ribs of a guy who put his shoulder into me as I was walking into a backyard involving an emergency assistance/fight call. He turned and acted like he wanted to do something. I was in the ready position and persuaded him he didn't want to play.


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Chuck Whitlock
12-15-2014, 10:05 PM
One of my going away presents for the guys on my job is that next week I am doing a PR24 instructor class for some of them.

I am seeing a renewed interest in the PR at my job, even among the younger troops.

I need to see if there are any active instructors close to my new AO. A check of Safariland's training calendar shows two instructor courses next year in the upper Midwest....too far away.