View Full Version : Let's talk about the AUG.
I really like this gun.
I had an MSAR STG a while back and it was great. Especially when ambushing coyotes and other animals from a truck.
The compactness, balance and capacity are fantastic.
I'm about to buy an actual AUG, and think it would be awesome to have a good thread on the rifle.
What does this gun do good? What are its weaknesses?
How about accessory recommendations? I liked the integral optic on my MSAR, an am planning to buy my AUG with the 3x integral scope, although I'm certainly open to other options.
What about mounting a light?
Lomshek
11-22-2014, 01:52 AM
Check out Nyeti's take here! (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?95-Mission-Drives-the-Gear-Train-Home-Defense-Carbine&p=269803&viewfull=1#post269803)
There are a couple articles he wrote about the AUG a page or two after the post I linked above.
LSP972
11-22-2014, 11:12 AM
BOM, I'm seriously considering one myself. Looking forward to this thread developing.
From my admittedly limited research so far, looks like buying from that Pete Athens fellow is the best way to go for a NIB rifle. If I do decide to get one, it will be the plain vanilla version with a short rail up top; after trying lots of options, I have found that the H-1 suits my needs and tastes for an optic better than anything I've tried so far.
.
Dagga Boy
11-22-2014, 11:32 AM
Stand by, when I get some time today I will start typing....;)
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_427/products_id/411542583/STEYR+AUG22301+AUG+SA+16+223
Stand by, when I get some time today I will start typing....;)
Awesome. :D
LSP972
11-22-2014, 02:02 PM
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_427/products_id/411542583/STEYR+AUG22301+AUG+SA+16+223
Pete Athens has the same version for about $120 less.
.
Dagga Boy
11-22-2014, 02:03 PM
Begin at the link. It will pretty much explain how I got to where I am. The article was written right when Sabre began doing the AUG's in the U.S. They are no longer. I will update with where I am today with "Black Betty", my current home and defensive rifle.
http://hardwiredtacticalshooting.com/blog/item/31-aug-original-article
Pete Athens has the same version for about $120 less.
.
Just throwing options out there. His site shows 1 in stock. Thanks for the heads up though.
Dagga Boy
11-22-2014, 02:30 PM
Anytime you use Pete at PJ's as your buying choice for anything AUG related, I would HIGHLY recommend it.
What's the barrel twist to bullet weight formula for these things? Do they like lighter or heavier boooolits?
Dagga Boy
11-22-2014, 04:38 PM
1 in 9 usually. There are 1 in 7 out there, but they ship with a 1 in 7. The 1 in 9 does really well with everything from 55 grain to up to 69. I reserve my 75 and 77 grain stuff for the AR's. I usually shoot 64 gr. soft points or Gold Dots in mine. What is nice is that with the 1 in 9, it will also run the crappy 55 gr. training ammo pretty well.
Coyotesfan97
11-22-2014, 05:43 PM
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c310/coyotesfan97/74e45dfc.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/user/coyotesfan97/media/74e45dfc.jpg.html)
My "green" AUG with a 20" barrel posing with my issued Colt Commando with an 11.5 barrel. It has the standard donut sight on it. I used it for prairie dog hunting several years ago and it was very easy getting in and out of the truck with it. My AUG is bone stock. I have a Giles sling on it. No light on it but that's the only thing I've ever considered adding. A railed receiver would be nice.
One big thing about AUGs is they are very clean guns to shoot. If you want to clean the barrel push a button and pull it out.
I never carried an AUG at work but we had four on the team at one point. They found the railed receivers and put Aimpoints on them. They were very fast shooting rifles. Our guys developed an empty gun reload for them. Take the new magazine and use it to push the magazine release to drop the empty mag. Then insert the new magazine. The guys that practiced it had very fast reloads.
You can change which way the brass ejects very easily. One of the guys who carried one was left handed. He had no issues shooting the gun. It was ergonomic for either hand. You're not shooting it off your support shoulder unless you want to catch some brass to the face. I saw a video for support side shooting with the AUG but I never tried it. I've never had an issue with only being able to shoot strong side with the AUG.
I have a 42 round magazine loaded with TRU ballistic tips for the primary magazine and 30 round mags for reloads.
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c310/coyotesfan97/74e45dfc.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/user/coyotesfan97/media/74e45dfc.jpg.html)
My "green" AUG with a 20" barrel posing with my issued Colt Commando with an 11.5 barrel. It has the standard donut sight on it. I used it for prairie dog hunting several years ago and it was very easy getting in and out of the truck with it. My AUG is bone stock. I have a Giles sling on it. No light on it but that's the only thing I've ever considered adding. A railed receiver would be nice.
One big thing about AUGs is they are very clean guns to shoot. If you want to clean the barrel push a button and pull it out.
I never carried an AUG at work but we had four on the team at one point. They found the railed receivers and put Aimpoints on them. They were very fast shooting rifles. Our guys developed an empty gun reload for them. Take the new magazine and use it to push the magazine release to drop the empty mag. Then insert the new magazine. The guys that practiced it had very fast reloads.
You can change which way the brass ejects very easily. One of the guys who carried one was left handed. He had no issues shooting the gun. It was ergonomic for either hand. You're not shooting it off your support shoulder unless you want to catch some brass to the face. I saw a video for support side shooting with the AUG but I never tried it. I've never had an issue with only being able to shoot strong side with the AUG.
I have a 42 round magazine loaded with TRU ballistic tips for the primary magazine and 30 round mags for reloads.
Awesome picture. Thank you!
Dagga Boy
11-22-2014, 06:07 PM
Now think about that with a 4" shorter barrel. You are looking at the same as running a 7.5 inch barreled AR, but with 16" blast and ballistics vs. the same from a 7.5 (which both SUCK by the way). I'll give up my ability to switch shoulders for that, thanks. Equally, think about the reliability of a 16" piston, and not having to depend on ATF not changing their mind on the SIG brace or a couple of tax stamps.
Wondering Beard
11-22-2014, 06:37 PM
One big thing about AUGs is they are very clean guns to shoot. If you want to clean the barrel push a button and pull it out.
Wouldn't you have to re-sight in the rifle after that?
What's the sight offset comapred to the AR? it's hard to tell from the photo.
I find the bull pup in general, and the Steyr in particular, to potentially be a real good answer to my personal needs so I'm very interested in this thread.
Jackdog
11-22-2014, 06:58 PM
CDNN has the Aug on sale for $1599 with 2 42 rd mags and 3 30 rd mags.
http://www.cdnnsports.com/aug-a3-223-16-picatinny-rail.html#.VHEi1opOLCQ
Dagga Boy
11-22-2014, 07:06 PM
Wouldn't you have to re-sight in the rifle after that?
What's the sight offset comapred to the AR? it's hard to tell from the photo.
I find the bull pup in general, and the Steyr in particular, to potentially be a real good answer to my personal needs so I'm very interested in this thread.
Negative on the resight in. You can remove and reinstall the barrel with no sight change.
Let me give another benefit I found recently besides being super easy to clean on the removable barrel. I was shooting a competition with a bunch of SWAT guys and had been spanking everyone pretty hard. I was on my last target on a run and way ahead of the shooter behind me (you would start shooting after the guy in front of you was on his second target and you try to run them down and tap them out....I was tapping three guys a run) and I got an obvious squib load. Didn't sound right, didn't feel right, didn't hit, and caused a pretty good malfunction. Got the malfunction cleared super fast, got loaded and was just ready to break the shot and my brain said "is winning this worth it?". I held the shot and let the kid behind my win (which was better to have a student in the class win rather than the old fat Aimpoint guy). I was able to pull the barrel, check to ensure that the bullet was not in the barrel by just looking down it, and quickly re-install it. It was actually fast enough that I could have likely done it in the field during a crisis if I had some cover and a little security for a minute. I have learned by seeing other folks guns blow up in their hands that when it does not sound or feel right going off, it pays to stop and check rather than press again at speed.
Cleaning an AUG is a dream compared to just about anything else. Not only the barrel, but also the trigger pack and all the real yuck sitting contained in the piston cylinder.
Offset, similar to the AR, maybe just a bit higher.
Coyotesfan97
11-22-2014, 07:22 PM
The off set on both guns is 2.5-3" LOS to LOB. That's eyeballing it with a rough tape measurement. I'd say both are probably closer to 2.5".
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Dagga Boy
11-22-2014, 07:33 PM
The off set on both guns is 2.5-3" LOS to LOB. That's eyeballing it with a rough tape measurement. I'd say both are probably closer to 2.5".
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If I remember right.........which is tough these days. It was roughly 2.5" at the optic line and 3" to the iron sights on top of the A1 optic.
LSP972
11-22-2014, 07:40 PM
CDNN has the Aug on sale for $1599 with 2 42 rd mags and 3 30 rd mags.
http://www.cdnnsports.com/aug-a3-223-16-picatinny-rail.html#.VHEi1opOLCQ
Dayum, that's tempting.
But I want a green one.
.
overton
11-22-2014, 07:46 PM
Now think about that with a 4" shorter barrel. You are looking at the same as running a 7.5 inch barreled AR, but with 16" blast and ballistics
Older pic of mine, where I tried to show this (have since changed to an Aimpoint T-1 in a Larue Hk-height mount):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/CatoY2k/PICT0048.jpg
The only criticism I have is the mushy reset, which for me makes fast follow up shots harder, the long buttstock (I know,
its a bullpup design problem, but its hard to use the factory forward grip when wearing a plate carrier or having short arms)
and that Steyr isn't really listening to users. For example it would be so easy to design a buttstock with a built in brass
deflector (ala the one from Manticore) or a forward rail that goes further back. A good friend of mine, a real AUG guru, mounts
the 9mm XS model stock and rail on his AUG to solve both problems. Just wish this was a factory option:
http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_assaultrifle_STEYR_AUG_A3_9mm_XS_a3a1d1322d.pn g
http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/militaryandlawenforcement/products/assaultrifles/auga39mmxs/?L=de
LittleLebowski
11-22-2014, 07:57 PM
Any AUG NATO stock owners in here?
Dagga Boy
11-22-2014, 08:14 PM
I have avoided the NATO stocks, as I am not a fan of adapting guns to magazines they were not designed for.
I have been trying to get a 9mm stock for the shielded ejection port. My pal who is the Austrian Special Forces SME on the AUG runs a tan one on his gun. I heard that BATF is shutting down the 9mm guns for not being "sporting enough". Again.......Steyr and our convoluted import laws, so we may need to ease up on the "Steyr hates you". You get the guns they can get in, and those are based on what they have contracts for. This is why blood sprays out of my eyes every time I hear some idiot talking about how companies like HK and Steyr don't cater to the US civilian population because they are anti 2nd amendment.........:mad:. You don't see a lot of US gun companies trying to fix the 68 GCA as their competitors keep getting screwed.
That rifle is listed as .223. No mention of 5.56.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_427/products_id/411542583/STEYR+AUG22301+AUG+SA+16+223
That rifle is listed as .223. No mention of 5.56.
Surely they wouldn't build a gun like that only chambered for the commercial .223 remington, if so, that's kinda foolish
Dagga Boy
11-22-2014, 10:03 PM
They are marked .223 as caliber on the receiver. The barrels are marked as 5.56x45/.223 Rem.
Never had an issue shooting either in mine.
They are marked .223 as caliber on the receiver. The barrels are marked as 5.56x45/.223 Rem.
Never had an issue shooting either in mine.
That's what I figured. Online gunshop descriptions are usually notoriously incomplete and/or misleading.
The last AUG I looked at has some threads a few inches aft of the muzzle. Is there an AUG specific suppressor, and if so, is that something one could buy?
Dagga Boy
11-22-2014, 11:49 PM
The last AUG I looked at has some threads a few inches aft of the muzzle. Is there an AUG specific suppressor, and if so, is that something one could buy?
Suppressing them is "interesting". I had Surefire do a custom set up with their older can that extended back over the barrel several inches. We chopped a USR barrel and mounted the adaptor. It was obviously over pressuring the system when I ran it suppressed and then I was getting malfunctions due to spinning the cases in the ejection port with them remaining inside backwards due to such violent extraction. I did not want to damage my gun, so that was the end of my suppressor adventure. I know that Surefire has the ability to make adaptors as needed. The solution to running a suppressor is to either use a can with very little back pressure made for the longer barreled guns. For someone serious, the best bet would beee to get an extra gas plug and have the blank firing setting drilled specifically for the can. I have heard rumor of factory suppressor gas plugs, but have never seen one. The AUG is just one of those guns I wouldn't suppress as there are better platforms if that is a big need.
When the AUG first came out, it represented incredible technology. Compared to an iron sighted Colt 16 inch AR, it seemed like cheating. I had a pair of them, complete with Giles Stock scotch guard trigger jobs. I shot one the first time I went to the 3 Gun Nationals.
Dagga Boy
11-23-2014, 09:01 AM
When the AUG first came out, it represented incredible technology. Compared to an iron sighted Colt 16 inch AR, it seemed like cheating. I had a pair of them, complete with Giles Stock scotch guard trigger jobs. I shot one the first time I went to the 3 Gun Nationals.
That is very much like my A1 that belonged to Bill Jeans....with the Giles trigger job and all. The recent AUGs have actually come a long way. With that said if you keep them to a sling, light, and Aimpoint gun they are at the top of the food chain like they were when they ruled 3 gun, when three gun was a much more practical game and the guns were limited to pretty much stock with a sling.
If you need or want more than a stripped simple gun, get an AR. Like many things, the AUG is best when it is kept inside of the realm it excels at and not made into something it is not. It is like the MP-5, for tight interior work, they are awesome to this day, it was when folks thought taking airfields with them and making them into counter sniper guns that they fail as a good choice.
LittleLebowski
11-23-2014, 09:19 AM
Excellent thread.
What is involved with a "scotch guard" trigger job ?
What are the options for adding a light to an A1 other than the old Surefire mount that attaches to the front leg of the optic mount ?
I found one of the old SF mounts used but I'm still looking for a suitable light. It looks like it will take a 6P but will require a tape switch for activation.
What is involved with a "scotch guard" trigger job ?
What are the options for adding a light to an A1 other than the old Surefire mount that attaches to the front leg of the optic mount ?
I found one of the old SF mounts used but I'm still looking for a suitable light. It looks like it will take a 6P but will require a tape switch for activation.
A scotch guard trigger job was when you sent your trigger pack and $50 or $75 to Giles Stock, and he got out the green 3M pad and smoothed out the trigger.
I bought the SF clamps that went on the barrel, and attached a light via a Weaver ring.
The AUG was a technological marvel, sort of the carbine version of a an HK P7. Unfortunately, neither product has substantially changed since their introduction. Between my wife being lefty (and me righty), spare parts, the small but still there concern of the effect of a kaboom by my face, the difficulty attaching stuff that we consider normal now like vertical grips, lights, reserve sights, free float tubes, etc., I see the AUG, like the P7, as wonderful examples of 80's technology now superseded. If someone wants one for nostalgia or a niche use, go for it, but I sold my two pre-ban and one classic AUG for stupid high prices during the post Newtown panic.
Dagga Boy
11-23-2014, 02:11 PM
DO NOT TRY TO DO A TRIGGER JOB ON THESE THINGS-PERIOD. Giles is one of the very few folks on the planet who knows what he is doing, and it took a lot of supported help to figure it out. The newer packs don't seem to need it.
Kabooms by your cheek.......I have traced exactly one case in Australia with some sort of crazy situation with a set of circumstances that would be near impossible to dulicate......and the guy was not horribly injured. The design of the gun makes this a real non-issue that folks like to imagine is more of an issue than it is.
Not on board with the the P7 analogy (and lord knows I love me some P7's). They are more like a Glock in my mind. There are a lot of things the AUG still does better than the competition. Again, stick with minimal stuff, and they are excellent. If you want night vision, laser stuff (even though I do have a DBAL on my A2) and IR, and the ability to hang tons of stuff on the gun including grenade launchers, then you should go to an AR (even though they have all this stuff for an AUG), short suppressed with a bunch of stuff-416. Buying an A1 AUG is very much like buying a Gen 1 Glock. It works, but there are better solutions. The A3 AUG is very much like the Gen 3 Glock. Still retard simple, but with the ability to add some critical new stuff like high quality WML's and enhanced sights. Like the Glock......once you start trying to modify them too much, you start to create issues (this is also a problem on roids with the AR).
With GJM's righty and lefty who both shoot in the home, I get the issue. With that said, it is not a weapon issue, its a logistic issue. GJM's wife could run a twin A3 AUG with a left hand bolt and a red dot just like anything else. Free float tubes........mine shoots sub inch without issue......I need a free float for my cold hammer forged high quality barrel on a gun that is not designed as a sniper platform because......:confused:.
Saying the AUG is an 80's relic that is no longer relevant is as logical as saying the Beretta is an 80's relic that is no longer relevant.....
Maybe the AUG is more like the LEM P30.....good at what it was designed for, and not so much when forced into a hole it wasn't.
Failure2Stop
11-23-2014, 03:06 PM
Everything has some degree of utility. I do think that the AUG is probably the "best" of the 80s EuroTrash bullpups, but I find the lack of handguard space hampering to tasks beyond those of an SMG.
A lot of this is related to my general non-appreciation of bullpup designs, though I would probably lean toward a Tavor these days.
Dagga Boy
11-23-2014, 03:29 PM
Everything has some degree of utility. I do think that the AUG is probably the "best" of the 80s EuroTrash bullpups, but I find the lack of handguard space hampering to tasks beyond those of an SMG.
A lot of this is related to my general non-appreciation of bullpup designs, though I would probably lean toward a Tavor these days.
So, what is your opinion of trying to shorten a long hand guard gun to the size of a sub machine gun for use in roles where the sub machine gun is likely the best choice.....you know, like indoor room combat.
Dagga Boy
11-23-2014, 03:41 PM
I have a deployment package set up right now for a contract. This is the long gun load out. Can we guess the roles of each?
Malamute
11-23-2014, 03:45 PM
.... My AUG is bone stock. I have a Giles sling on it. No light on it but that's the only thing I've ever considered adding. A railed receiver would be nice.
One big thing about AUGs is they are very clean guns to shoot. If you want to clean the barrel push a button and pull it out.
I never carried an AUG at work but we had four on the team at one point. They found the railed receivers and put Aimpoints on them. They were very fast shooting rifles. Our guys developed an empty gun reload for them. Take the new magazine and use it to push the magazine release to drop the empty mag. Then insert the new magazine. The guys that practiced it had very fast reloads.
You can change which way the brass ejects very easily. One of the guys who carried one was left handed. He had no issues shooting the gun. It was ergonomic for either hand. You're not shooting it off your support shoulder unless you want to catch some brass to the face. I saw a video for support side shooting with the AUG but I never tried it. I've never had an issue with only being able to shoot strong side with the AUG.
I have a 42 round magazine loaded with TRU ballistic tips for the primary magazine and 30 round mags for reloads.
This thread got me curious about AUGs. I saw this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K5MYDmTEUM
Looks like theres a workable method for left handed shooting without getting brass in the face, as well as suppressors, and like you said, railed receivers for lights, lasers and whatever.
Failure2Stop
11-23-2014, 03:45 PM
So, what is your opinion of trying to shorten a long hand guard gun to the size of a sub machine gun for use in roles where the sub machine gun is likely the best choice.....you know, like indoor room combat.
A 10ish inch long handguard is not uncommon these days with 10.3-11.5 barrels, which beats the M4 by 3 inches.
For indoor stuff, I really like the Mk18 sized guns, mostly because with a decent suppressor the barrel is right around that of an M4, which works decently indoors.
taadski
11-23-2014, 04:02 PM
I was issued an A1 as a patrol carbine at my agency back in the late 90s. I eventually transitioned to a AR pattern rifle but I still recall it pretty fondly. They're shooting MF'ers. It took me quite a while after the switch to an M4 to reach what I considered the same level of comfort and proficiency I'd developed with the Steyr. The trigger on my issue one was always a bit clunky (it was a select fire weapon with the semi-only conversion in it) but the overall ergonomic package made it super shootable. I ran an old clamp style Surefire mount on the barrel with a 1" ring and a 6P to good effect. Aside from a sling, that was the only mod I felt it needed.
Here's an interesting little tid-bit/question….
On both of the 2 Augs our agency owns, there was a repeatable phenomenon whereby if one cycles the bolt by hand from a closed position, it was possible to chamber a round with the bolt going (what appeared to be) fully back into battery (read, it would fire) but without the extractor gaining full purchase on the chambered round. Under said circumstances, one could then re-rack the bolt repeatedly and still leave the live round in the chamber. This only seems to occur if the bolt is hand cycled from a closed position. If the bolt is locked back, mag inserted, then bolt released, the extractor always seems to seat adequately on the cartridge's rim and then eject appropriately.
Has anyone had similar symptoms from the platform? A known problem? It's an issue we've never adequately resolved.
Good thread.
t
Dagga Boy
11-23-2014, 04:15 PM
A 10ish inch long handguard is not uncommon these days with 10.3-11.5 barrels, which beats the M4 by 3 inches.
For indoor stuff, I really like the Mk18 sized guns, mostly because with a decent suppressor the barrel is right around that of an M4, which works decently indoors.
Back to two tax stamps, crappy ballistics, not legal in lots of places, need permission to travel, etc. if you are issued the thing, great and when I said the AR makes more sense for business, that is what I meant. For an old retired guy or an individual citizen looking for a defensive carbine for home and vehicle defense, I ll keep the Eurotrash.
Taadski, I think a bunch of the issues were the choice of Customs to go with the F/A guns instead if semi's and then try to change them. Stuff is very different inside. I would gather that unmolested Semi's would have had fewer issues. With that said, for an agency issue guns that got a lot of very hard use in the field, the AUG's worked great for Customs until the merge with INS who didn't want them. I knew Seth Nadel back before they even put the AUGs int service and he knew how to run the thugs . Often when the agency SME retires, so does a bunch of the knowledge and passion.
The righty/lefty thing is enormous for my wife and I, as it is quite common for us to share one long gun in the field when out recreating, or have just one long gun readily available at night, near the door, etc. There are many times where two long guns is just not practical.
I think the P7/AUG analogy is pretty fair. Tremendous designs introduced in the 80's, that never made it mainstream in a big way. The Glock, Beretta 92, and AR-15 did become the mainstream choices, and as a result they have both been very well supported and continued to evolve.
At one time, if you wanted a compact carbine your main choice was the AUG. Now, this is my space efficient carbine. It can be a pistol, or a "rifle" if I plop it on my NFA lower. Caliber that works for me, familiar manual of arms, ambi for right/left hand use, great trigger, etc.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/imagejpg1_zps703ec918.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/imagejpg1_zps703ec918.jpg.html)
SeriousStudent
11-23-2014, 04:30 PM
I have a deployment package set up right now for a contract. This is the long gun load out. Can we guess the roles of each?
From top to bottom:
Vehicle stops
Designated Marksman
General housecleaning chores.
Dagga Boy
11-23-2014, 05:03 PM
The righty/lefty thing is enormous for my wife and I, as it is quite common for us to share one long gun in the field when out recreating, or have just one long gun readily available at night, near the door, etc. There are many times where two long guns is just not practical.
I think the P7/AUG analogy is pretty fair. Tremendous designs introduced in the 80's, that never made it mainstream in a big way. The Glock, Beretta 92, and AR-15 did become the mainstream choices, and as a result they have both been very well supported and continued to evolve.
At one time, if you wanted a compact carbine your main choice was the AUG. Now, this is my space efficient carbine. It can be a pistol, or a "rifle" if I plop it on my NFA lower. Caliber that works for me, familiar manual of arms, ambi for right/left hand use, great trigger, etc.
Its a choice for sure, and if it works, awesome. Again, I am not trying to make converts here. I have zero interest in Steyr as a company, or care if anyone else sees the benefits. It fits my world about perfect, just like yours does for you.
Now as far as "mainstream", do you think that had more to do with the 1989 and 1994 bans, that included the US government confiscation of a warehouse full of black 16 inch circle dot guns that became restricted to individual and agency sales to get them out. Had the AR 15 been essentially banned in this country, it may not be so "mainstream". They have developed well over time and are still a solid choice for a simple issue carbine.
My take is quite simple. My A3 AUG will do everything a 16" barreled simple AR with a A1 stock, Red dot, sling, and light will do without giving up a thing in reliability, accuracy, etc (apples to apples). It does it with a package 10" shorter. It will also do everything a 8" AR with a light, sling and red dot, will do with more reliability, accuracy, long term service life, and no penalty in ballistics, flash and blast. I find the ergonomics to be in favor of the AUG (FOR ME), while others prefer the ergos of the AR, which tells me it is probalby a toss up with each having positives and negatives that will essentially cancel each other out..........so again, it becomes a Apple/PC choice.
Failure2Stop
11-23-2014, 05:10 PM
Back to two tax stamps, crappy ballistics, not legal in lots of places, need permission to travel, etc. if you are issued the thing, great and when I said the AR makes more sense for business, that is what I meant. For an old retired guy or an individual citizen looking for a defensive carbine for home and vehicle defense, I ll keep the Eurotrash.
Taadski, I think a bunch of the issues were the choice of Customs to go with the F/A guns instead if semi's and then try to change them. Stuff is very different inside. I would gather that unmolested Semi's would have had fewer issues. With that said, for an agency issue guns that got a lot of very hard use in the field, the AUG's worked great for Customs until the merge with INS who didn't want them. I knew Seth Nadel back before they even put the AUGs int service and he knew how to run the thugs . Often when the agency SME retires, so does a bunch of the knowledge and passion.
Dude, I'm not saying that you shouldn't like your AUG, or that you're wrong, simply that I do not share your enthusiasm for the tool in general.
I think that that two stamp thing is irrelevant, as we're really discussing one stamp, since one is dedicated to the suppressor anyway. I'm with you on the SBR hassle deal, but bilateral/ambidextrous use is important to me.
I personally do not use ammo that needs 20" of velocity to be effective for anything other than practice ammo. I follow the same thought process for 7.62 and 9mm as far as "duty" and practice ammo is concerned. I prefer to keep 5.56 at 11.5 for the slight performance increase, and while I do not consider it to be the ultimate in terminal performance, I have put down plenty of determined adversarys with M855 when applied to the proper places, from contact distance to 700 meters. Better ammo does a good job of closing the performance gap.
Business/work aside, I shoot and manipulate AR based rifles better than any other configuration, with the exception of the charging handle/bolt catch interaction of the SCAR. This means more to me than a few hundred feet per second of velocity.
Still, if you like it, and it fills a need, great; I just see a lot more of them in safes than at classes or in competition by those that own both options. While I like to have a reason to own expensive items, it's cool to have things "just because", and I'd certainly own one if offered a screaming deal.
Dagga Boy
11-23-2014, 06:01 PM
All good pal. Trust me, I know I am one of those guys who marches to a different drum. I have found that most folks don't appreciate the AUG until they use them for real in the realm where they work well. That is what hooked me. I was working some stuff where I needed a very high degree of separation and deniability between my cop job and my private sector job. My partner became an explosively instant left hand only shooter in life, and was a very dedicated AUG shooter, so it made sense for me to learn to run and carry one. Working discrete urban operations in SoCal made it a near ideal choice, and I got hooked. It was great in the helo as well. Once I could run a red dot, it sort of made it for me.
I shoot, teach and demo the AR more than anything for obvious reasons. It is not a platform I would ever walk away from. With that said, I have my "Black Betty" AUG in my bedroom as my home gun. That is where this thread started. In that role, it makes sense. It also makes sense because I also travel with it to various states.
I hope people will read these threads with a focus on making decisions on gear based on their world as opposed to what is perfect for other people's world. It is good to have options. While the AUG was a "weird" option for many years, the current A3's are really a great little carbine and worth a look. The biggest issue is there are very few folks who understand or having experience running them. I think "performance fixation and anxiety" are also an issue. I learned a bunch about the things when I ran one in the NRA Patrol Rifle Instructor class. I had already taken a bunch of instructor classes with an AR, and was sure I could go to the class and not have to work very hard to do well. I took the AUG to really challenge myself and to really get something out of the class as I thought I was putting myself at a big disadvantage as I knew how much support side stuff I would have to do and learn how to teach. I would have never discovered how amazingly fast the AUG is for clearing a bolt over base malfunction with the support hand only if I wasn't forced to do it. I was forced to figure out how to run it efficiently, and how to do all the injured stuff and left handed. Most will never make the effort to get out of the comfort zone to figure this stuff out.
The nice thing about this forum is that most folks here actually use this stuff to a high level in some arena and it makes tapping into experience easy as opposed to the typical internet/gun shop discussions on stuff people theorize about rather than know.
DocGKR
11-23-2014, 06:15 PM
I generally strongly dislike bullpups--except the AUG; the A3 version with a 16" barrel works well enough that I would have no angst using one if that was what was available.
This thread is going exactly like I hoped it would.
I was moving around my house last night with a buddy's AUG and then did the same movements with my AR and my Benelli.
It was incredible how much better that AUG was with regard to moving through my house.
Combine the above with the ability to basically shoot from the "2" with a 16" rifle and I'm more than sold on it.
Thanks to all the contributors.
Paul D
11-23-2014, 06:44 PM
Questions: why the 3 point sling over the adjustable 2 point slings? Have you compared the AUG vs the Tavor? Thanks for insights.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
Dagga Boy
11-23-2014, 08:38 PM
I have no issues with the Tavor, just no real time and I am already too heavily invested in the AUG to start something new.
The 3 point. They simply work for the size and balance of the AUG. We ran 3 points on MP-5's for a lot of years and they worked well for carrying and supporting the gun and could balance and maintain the MP-5 well depending on how you utilized it. They didn't transition too well to the support side...not an AUG issue. They also did not adopt well to longer guns....of course if they worked on the MP5, then they must be good on everything......wrong!. As BOM figured out, running an AUG is a lot like running a small subgun, and are very pistol like. The three point assists that. I have both a two point (that you want to attach to the outside rear swivel on the AUG) and the three point. I like the way the three point balances and sets the AUG up, but it is not huge goatee friendly, so I am still a little on the fence. I may try a padded adjustable two point as well and see what I end up with.
It would be interesting to compare what percentage of people who have owned an AUG, still own one, and what percentage of people who have owned an AR still own one.
When the AUG came of age, in the Giles Stock influenced Gunsite world two decades ago, the AUG kicked ass against the AR-15. Over time, the AR-15 caught up, and then surpassed the AUG. At that point, basically everyone at Gunsite dumped them. There is a reason, as I recall, you own Bill Jeans' old AUG -- he no longer has one.
I still think the AUG is a neat gun. I won my class at the 3 Gun Nationals shooting a green 20 inch AUG. Took a bunch of classes with them. Can't remember the last time I heard of anyone besides you seriously shooting one.
Dagga Boy
11-23-2014, 09:53 PM
It would be interesting to compare what percentage of people who have owned an AUG, still own one, and what percentage of people who have owned an AR still own one.
When the AUG came of age, in the Giles Stock influenced Gunsite world two decades ago, the AUG kicked ass against the AR-15. Over time, the AR-15 caught up, and then surpassed the AUG. At that point, basically everyone at Gunsite dumped them. There is a reason, as I recall, you own Bill Jeans' old AUG -- he no longer has one.
I still think the AUG is a neat gun. I won my class at the 3 Gun Nationals shooting a green 20 inch AUG. Took a bunch of classes with them. Can't remember the last time I heard of anyone besides you seriously shooting one.
Remember the part about being almost impossible to get, or horribly expensive for a 20 year period...........think that might have a small part in the equation. I even stopped carrying my A2 because I had almost $5,000 in a gun that was hard to support. I was briefly excited about the Saber Guns, but of course they got shut down due to legal issues and it wasn't till recently that with Vltor doing the guns that they became totally viable again both with cost and availability. The MSAR's always seemed to have to go back at least once to kind of work. So yea, two decades of not viable. How viable would the AR be if you couldn't get one for 20 years, and if you could, it was a 20" A1? Catching up is easy with no competition. So in the days of the same type of guns the AUG's generally crushed the AR's in most competitive venues, you don't think that maybe when I am shooting mine against AR's with the same set ups (typical cop guns, red dot, a light and a sling) I am not doing well? Crap, it was almost embarrassing what I was doing to a large group of SWAT coppers the last time I was on the range. They stopped making fun of my gun as soon as the steel started getting rung.
So you want to know who is also back to running them again? Giles Stock is back in deep and is equally impressed with the Vltor made receiver guns and their performance. You almost have to look at these things as a fairly new gun. They are a very good general purpose carbine that are particularly well suited to indoor and urban use, as well as deployed from vehicles. Unlike many newer guns, these essentially have the fleas worked out. Hell, Magpul is making magazines for them, which is a good thing.
1slow
11-23-2014, 11:21 PM
I had 2 green 20" AUG, I got out because of logistics.
How do you compare the AUG with the Tavor ?
Dagga Boy
11-24-2014, 12:00 AM
I had 2 green 20" AUG, I got out because of logistics.
How do you compare the AUG with the Tavor ?
I have no real time on the Tavor. If I had no time on either, it would be something I would look at, but I know the AUG and am vested in the system.
Kind of funny on the "logistics" issues. I was a hardcore HK 9 series shooter. I competed extensively with a HK91, had all sorts of time on the MP5, had a 91 at work, etc. The 91/93 was REALLY my system. It just got to the point they couldn't be supported well due to the bans. That was the point I went to the AR more because I could get them than much else. I learned the system well and went through a very long and extensive path of getting where I am today on them. Because of the ranges where I shot a lot of competitive rifle (same place where the SOF 3 gun stuff was also tested), I was the first guy really running a 5.56 AR system. I was the weirdo then as well and thanks to a 20" HBAR and an ACOG with SS109, I could run the .308's down at longer ranges. I did very good with the AR's, especially on the shorter range courses. What is funny is that the one guy I could never beat in the three gun stuff was a reserve LEO (ringer on the shooting team) with a Black 16" AUG. The dude was insanely good with it. Like many who adopted AUG's, they tended to be out of the box thinkers with both gear selection and how they trained. I nearly got fired as a cop trying to get an AUG to shoot with on our shooting team. Post 89 was bad, post 94 was just plain not worth running an import gun. I boxed up all those 9 series guns and most are sitting in a case at the very bottom of the safe. Even my AUG's were not worth trying to support. Like many, I even sold my 16" Black unfired AUG A1 for a boatload of cash. Same with four out the five SP89s I had. These guns were all a bigger pain in the neck in California who went extra retard on legislation. Overall, we pretty much got left with the AR as our only choice.
ldunnmobile
11-24-2014, 12:04 AM
So with all this bullpup talk, has anyone handled the DTA MDR? Look interesting for sure.
http://youtu.be/dYzwUsnryTo
LSP972
11-24-2014, 11:24 AM
The only thing giving me pause on this critter is the safety. I've got so much time on the AR, manipulating that safety is "automatic"... particularly re-engaging it after some shots. It looks to me like the cross-bolt safety of the AUG, while easy enough to dis-engage with the right thumb, will be a bit more problematic to re-engage.
Any thoughts on this from you guys who shoot them?
.
Dagga Boy
11-24-2014, 11:52 AM
The only thing giving me pause on this critter is the safety. I've got so much time on the AR, manipulating that safety is "automatic"... particularly re-engaging it after some shots. It looks to me like the cross-bolt safety of the AUG, while easy enough to dis-engage with the right thumb, will be a bit more problematic to re-engage.
Any thoughts on this from you guys who shoot them?
.
It is very easy to figure out, and one of the things I like the most. Think about an 870 but far more ergonomic and easier to use. It is fast and positive. I find that I am better with it than most other guns.
As far as Jerry's video, good stuff. The most important thing he noted is that it is like shooting a pistol. Gee, where have I heard that before? One of the biggest plusses for me is that I spend far more time shooting and training with pistols over everything else. The techniques, movements, positioning and overall body dynamics are very pistol like with the AUG. It is essentially a 5.56 for pistol environments. I find it far better in this role than the AR pistols, and I get the benefits of being able to run them out to carbine ranges efficiently as well. Like Jerry said, give and take. I really live in a defensive pistol world at this point in life, and the AUG essentially gives me a highly effective offensive pistol. May not be the choice for most folks, but it is a near perfect fit for me.
Wondering Beard
11-24-2014, 12:25 PM
Nyeti, you mentioned earlier the ease with which you corrected a bolt over base malfunction and it got me curious. How is the AUG for reducing malfunctions (of all types) compared compared to the AR, is there a particular set of routines for that job that are AUG specific or are they similar in concept (tap-rack, if that doesn't work follow with the appropriate remedial action as in Kyle Lamb's 'three little kittens') to the AR?
Dagga Boy
11-24-2014, 12:57 PM
It is very easy to retract the bolt and lock it with one hand. The AR is a two hand operation. Anything that requires locking the bolt to clear is far easier with the AUG. I have not had many issues with any of mine during normal operation (the only one that sticks out was the squib round, and the clearance on the failure to extract went fast). The suppressor experiment and the broken firing pin on my old A1 were it.
Lester Polfus
11-24-2014, 01:09 PM
I don't have anywhere near the experience with the AUG as Nyeti, but I did spend some times with guys that ran them in the 90's.
One thing that sticks out in my mind is that inside 50 yards, on torso sized targets, using paper targets and a timer, I shot to pretty much the same speed and accuracy standard holding the gun with both hands, and holding the gun with just my right hand with my left hand in my back pocket.
I had no idea the AUG was back as a going concern. The last time I paid attention to .223 black rifles, they were effectively unsupportable, and my experience with the US made H&K clones was so poor that I didn't take the US made AUGS seriously.
I'm curious to see if they will gain market share, or if the AR platform has so much inertia that it is unstoppable. I think an AUG is a perfect police car gun.
Hunter Rose
11-24-2014, 01:17 PM
Nyeti,
Timely thread for me as I have been looking at getting something shorter for under the bed but do not feel like dealing with the tax stamp hassles.
What are your thoughts on the railed forearm AUG CQC model? I'm a tall guy 6'5" with long arms and am concerned the traditional AUG setup maybe a little short with only the vertical grip. Any real difference between the two in your opinion?
LOKNLOD
11-24-2014, 01:25 PM
It's really a testament to the stupidity of gun laws that I can wield an AUG with 42 rounds of 5.56 but not put one of those stocks and vert grip on a 17 rounds of 9mm in a Glock.
I've always wanted an AUG...never really seemed like a viable option in such a AR-centric world, but thanks to Nyeti for some detail on their usage. Solid thread.
It seems like the AUG bullpup design is kind of the opposite way to skin the cat, so to speak, from the long handguard drive-the-gun setup we've all come so accustomed to -- rather that increase the leverage out front, and move the hand out, move all the weight behind the fulcrum.
A lot of my thoughts around home defense revolve around using a weapon one-handed while wrangling my gaggle of small kiddos. While using a short AR one handed is certainly an option, it's probably easier said than done while also carrying a screaming kid.* Especially in the context of maneuvering in a structure vs just shooting. Seems like an AUG would be very well suited to that.
(*I fully acknowledge this is an unlikely scenario, that's not the point though...)
I'd be interested to hear a little more if anyone had some experience on the viability of the NATO-stock AR-mag variant.
Dagga Boy
11-24-2014, 03:44 PM
It seems like the AUG bullpup design is kind of the opposite way to skin the cat, so to speak, from the long handguard drive-the-gun setup we've all come so accustomed to -- rather that increase the leverage out front, and move the hand out, move all the weight behind the fulcrum.
A lot of my thoughts around home defense revolve around using a weapon one-handed while wrangling my gaggle of small kiddos. While using a short AR one handed is certainly an option, it's probably easier said than done while also carrying a screaming kid.* Especially in the context of maneuvering in a structure vs just shooting. Seems like an AUG would be very well suited to that.
(*I fully acknowledge this is an unlikely scenario, that's not the point though...)
I'd be interested to hear a little more if anyone had some experience on the viability of the NATO-stock AR-mag variant.
You are getting it. The AUG is good for having a gun that I can do a ton of pistol jobs (kid wrangling, dog wrangling-especially with a hand hooked to a real dogs collar, opening doors-both home and vehicle, and even running a handheld flashlight at times when the weapon mounted light is not a good option). Another weird application that emphasizes the attributes of the AUG is with Trackers (also K9 handlers). I know a very experienced tracker who used an AUG specifically for this task, and am aware of others who also love them in this role. You spend a lot of time kneeling and working near the ground and using the support hand and the balance and size of the AUG makes this a more comfortable operation for long periods and the muzzle is kept out of the dirt and safely oriented. Essentially, the AUG will free up the support hand if you are doing tasks where you need a support hand.
As far as NATO stocks, I am not a fan. I understand it, but I don't like making things fit that they were not designed for. The AUG magazines are VERY well proven, no longer horribly expensive or elusive, and easy to use and maintain.
As far as the question on the CQC style AUG......I like them and I don't. I was all hot to get one till I felt one. Anything you start putting up front on the AUG takes away from its balance and all that rearward weight that gives them all the benefits we have discussed. The CQC makes them longer, and more capable as far as accesories. Personally, I have a 6'4/5" upper torso attached to 30" legs (now you know where the model for Shrek came from). I'm like a tall dwarf. I can run a long upper, but don't like it on the AUG. If you just have to have that forward length, the CQC is the answer, but I would rather go to a lightwieght railed AR based gun at that point. If nothing else, the CQC's look absolutely bad a##.
David S.
11-25-2014, 11:53 AM
Do you have any experience with the 9mm conversion kits? Seem like a neat, but rather pricey idea
Gadfly
11-25-2014, 12:21 PM
I was in INS around when Homeland Security was formed, and my office ended up with a bunch of Customs Service AUGs. They were easy to shoot. The trigger is not as bad as people say, and from an armorer standpoint, they were easy to work on.
My personal issue was I hated the 1.5 fixed optic. Now you can change that to whatever you want, so not an issue. My other issue was "length of pull" (LOP) on the stock. Yes the gun is short overall, but it had a fairly long LOP to get all those working parts back behind the grip. When I put on my vest and other gear, that LOP became really long. At least with our ARs and MP5s, we can adjust the stock in a little bit (our MP5s have cut outs in the sliding stock rails allowing multiple positions). Our issued 870s come with youth model speed feed stocks to accommodate the body armor. The AUG had no way to account for this.
I liked the AUG just fine when shooting it wearing a T shirt, but it was at the edge of being too long an LOP for my taste then. Add in the armor, and I was not a fan of the ergonomics.
Of course, everyone's body sized and wing span varies, so you may not be bothered by this. I am just relating my observations from back when we issued them. As a fleet of guns, they ran fine, very few mechanical issues. Cost killed the AUG for us, along with the MP5. It was just cheaper to piggy back DOD contracts and buy M4s in bulk.
I had boxes of AUG mags laying around back in the day. Don't know what happened to them...
Dagga Boy
11-25-2014, 01:23 PM
The length of pull does set them up more like a pistol.......are we seeing a trend. Also, as stated, the M4 based gun is probably better for "business", or at least tactical teams who are hanging a bunch of stuff off the gun. For a armed citizen for home defense, or a patrol officer, the armor issues are not a big deal.
Kind of funny with those old Customs guns........they were old, yet still ran good. They have a long service life and tend to do well in hard service.
Something else I noticed. Of the Bullpups, the AUG seems to have the best of the bore to sightline that likely relates to running the piston rods down the sides of the gun instead of over the top.
Wondering Beard
11-25-2014, 04:52 PM
Nyeti, I was looking again at the pic of your AUG in the other thread and I was wondering about the flashlight placement; don't you get a lot of shadow from the barrel having the light be that far back?
Along the same lines, is there a way to place a light a lot closer to VFG? I like the X300 Ultra for that sort of job (placed at 3 or 9 o'clock), it doesn't take much room, throws a lot of light and is easily activated by either hand.
I'm have to find a range in my area that has an AUG for rent. I really like what it has to offer and have to try out for myself.
Failure2Stop
11-25-2014, 05:08 PM
The length of pull does set them up more like a pistol.......are we seeing a trend. Also, as stated, the M4 based gun is probably better for "business", or at least tactical teams who are hanging a bunch of stuff off the gun. For a armed citizen for home defense, or a patrol officer, the armor issues are not a big deal.
Kind of funny with those old Customs guns........they were old, yet still ran good. They have a long service life and tend to do well in hard service.
Something else I noticed. Of the Bullpups, the AUG seems to have the best of the bore to sightline that likely relates to running the piston rods down the sides of the gun instead of over the top.
I really like the piston location of the AUG.
I think that it has a lot of potential for next gen rifles.
I was in INS around when Homeland Security was formed, and my office ended up with a bunch of Customs Service AUGs. They were easy to shoot. The trigger is not as bad as people say, and from an armorer standpoint, they were easy to work on.
My personal issue was I hated the 1.5 fixed optic. Now you can change that to whatever you want, so not an issue. My other issue was "length of pull" (LOP) on the stock. Yes the gun is short overall, but it had a fairly long LOP to get all those working parts back behind the grip. When I put on my vest and other gear, that LOP became really long. At least with our ARs and MP5s, we can adjust the stock in a little bit (our MP5s have cut outs in the sliding stock rails allowing multiple positions). Our issued 870s come with youth model speed feed stocks to accommodate the body armor. The AUG had no way to account for this.
I liked the AUG just fine when shooting it wearing a T shirt, but it was at the edge of being too long an LOP for my taste then. Add in the armor, and I was not a fan of the ergonomics.
Of course, everyone's body sized and wing span varies, so you may not be bothered by this. I am just relating my observations from back when we issued them. As a fleet of guns, they ran fine, very few mechanical issues. Cost killed the AUG for us, along with the MP5. It was just cheaper to piggy back DOD contracts and buy M4s in bulk.
I had boxes of AUG mags laying around back in the day. Don't know what happened to them...
My personal sample of one and the agency guns I've fired have all worked fine but I've spoken with two legacy USCS agents who claimed they had reliability issues. One of them claims he had an AUG malfunction on him during a shooting.
I participated in a tour of the U.S. Army Ordnance museum's individual weapon vaults given by former curator William Attwater, the guy who did a bunch of history channel shows in the 90's. He was a Vietnam era marine who was in the middle of telling a group of young Army officers how today's M16A2/M4 was not your daddy's M16...when out of the blue he pulls an AUG out of the lectern and spends 10 minutes going on about how it was the second best rifle out there. He made each of us try its basic manual of arms.
I've never fired one, but he is a serious dude and knows more about small arms than most so I never forgot his advice. This thread is peaking my interest.
Andy T
11-25-2014, 10:07 PM
Early this year I wanted a new rifle. I have a number of ARs, tried FS2000 and didn't care for Tavor much. The AUG was cool and I really liked the quick change barrel. So that was it. I agree with Nyeti on his points. My AUG is the A3 version, purchased from Pete. I find the stock trigger is more than adequate. I put Aimpoint Micro in ADM absolute co witness mount. I use a two point sling with the front sling point mounted at the rear of the rail. No iron BUIS, AUG stock.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-B3__vsXPqeY/Uy9QwiPe2mI/AAAAAAAAGVw/IN5Hk1LtDIc/w1489-h838-no/IMG_20140323_172307398.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-HZDG0xGSzeE/Uy9Q1fpzwAI/AAAAAAAAGWc/hGqfe1dT3RU/w1489-h838-no/IMG_20140323_172320742.jpg
Here is a short AAR from a two day rifle class where I ran the AUG:
Last weekend I ran my AUG A3 in a training class.
Before the class, rifle was cleaned and well lubed.
Gas setting - standard
Ammo used was steel cased Wolf.
TD1, we went through approximately 800 rounds. No malfunctions.
At the end of TD1, I decided not to clean/lube the rifle.
TD2 started OK. However, towards lunch, I started having a combo of a stuck case with double feed.
I gave the rifle a quick clean/lube and it worked for a while, until the stuck casings issue returned.
This was towards the end of the class, and I switched the gas to "dirty". The class was winding down
and I experienced no more malfunctions.
Total round count: ~1200
Issues:
We did a bit of barricade/support side shooting, and with AUG it was a bit awkward at times in order to avoid getting brass in the face.
When using some barricade positions, I had a tendency to pull down on the VFG, which causes it to disengage/collapse
I am not 100% used to the safety and there were a few drills, especially ones that required running where I was fumbling with the safety, losing time.
To me it's a cool gun, but I still have more ARs than my lone AUG. However, I think I will keep it for a while and maybe even get the new production A2.
Personally, I like it more than FS2000 because it's not so bulky and has a simpler (albeit non-ambidextrous) ejection mechanism.
Early this year I wanted a new rifle. I have a number of ARs, tried FS2000 and didn't care for Tavor much. The AUG was cool and I really liked the quick change barrel. So that was it. I agree with Nyeti on his points. My AUG is the A3 version, purchased from Pete. I find the stock trigger is more than adequate. I put Aimpoint Micro in ADM absolute co witness mount. I use a two point sling with the front sling point mounted at the rear of the rail. No iron BUIS, AUG stock.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-B3__vsXPqeY/Uy9QwiPe2mI/AAAAAAAAGVw/IN5Hk1LtDIc/w1489-h838-no/IMG_20140323_172307398.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-HZDG0xGSzeE/Uy9Q1fpzwAI/AAAAAAAAGWc/hGqfe1dT3RU/w1489-h838-no/IMG_20140323_172320742.jpg
Here is a short AAR from a two day rifle class where I ran the AUG:
To me it's a cool gun, but I still have more ARs than my lone AUG. However, I think I will keep it for a while and maybe even get the new production A2.
Personally, I like it more than FS2000 because it's not so bulky and has a simpler (albeit non-ambidextrous) ejection mechanism.
I don't have nearly the experience on bullpups that some of you guys do, but I found the FS2000 to be seriously underwhelming. Not just underwhelming....I actually got a carpal tunnel syndrome-like feeling from shooting a mag through it.
Some guns just don't do it for ya......but to this date the FS2000 is still the only rifle I've ever actively disliked shooting.
Dagga Boy
11-25-2014, 10:49 PM
Andy T, good review, and quite common. This is an AUG "negative". Class is a great place to figure out how to run them. The problem is that most (not all) instructors do not have time on them, so you end up getting coached like they are an AR....or ignored. It is like walking into a regular computer place with your MAC. Unfortunately, there really aren't any "Apple"/AUG stores out there to show you how to run them. I would love to get together with some of the AUG experts out there here and in Austria to shoot a DVD on how to run the things, as it would be a big help.
Keep at it, do the research. Google stuff on the AUG from Giles Stock, Bill Jeans, and Seth Nadel and see if you can find some old articles. Good luck and feel free to PM me if you need any help. You have a GREAT set up to run that thing efficently.
overton
11-26-2014, 06:36 AM
Sounds like a plan! Lets lobby at panteao for a nyeti / Austrian SOF instructor coproduction!!
Dagga Boy
11-26-2014, 07:05 AM
Between my pal in Austria and Giles Stock, it could be good.....I m sure they would sell 25....;-)
Wayne and I would love to do a Panteao video on something like high accountability pistol shooting or something. I think an AUG video would be like Dobbs doing a review on Sushi places.
abu fitna
11-26-2014, 08:57 AM
It would be interesting to compare what percentage of people who have owned an AUG, still own one, and what percentage of people who have owned an AR still own one.
Ran an AUG for a while in the late 90's on a few jobs down in the southeast Asia region. Worked well for moving between environments across dense urban, rural, and jungle. There are definitely better optics choices today, but the new rail system makes that point moot. Trigger was always a challenge.
Don't own one now, but the old one was a shop piece, so not sure this counts in the sample...
Did the option of bringing them around a later shop, but went with the SIG 552 instead then, in part to ease the challenge of platform transitions for folks coming out of conventional places with only M4 / M16 experiences, in part due to parts / mags availability in country at certain points in time.
In personal life, have been working for several years to focus on the AR platform due to simple overwhelming preferences in the market. (When even the most stubborn of the old hold out shops abroad have gone to the AR, the vote is decisively in now). Despite the potential downsides of the shorty ballistics, AR pistol with brace is definitely a more sustainable system for the long haul it seems.
Wanted to play with the Tavor, as some folks I respect speak highly of them, but the US production is just too new yet, and adoption is not yet certain.
Hated the FN version. But I digress.
Dagga Boy
11-26-2014, 10:06 AM
I think the key is to sort of keep this "Apples to Apples". Comparison to the older A1 AUG's is the 20" fixed carry handle AR15/M16 A1 and A2. Is anyone still running one of these things either by choice, or have we "moved on". Again, I don't need to convert anyone to the AUG A3, as I have no interest except as a personal choice of long gun for individual use for me in my home and vehicle. The A3 is a choice for me over an AR15 pistol with a "arm brace". If folks think that makes more sense, then use one. I may be missing something because I don't own anything with an "arm brace" as I am paranoid enough about how "loophole" things are viewed under the law when used, and what happens when somebody makes it crusade to close the "loophole". I try to keep the things I have that are most likely to get actually used at some point very Vanilla.
SeriousStudent
11-26-2014, 06:05 PM
...... I think an AUG video would be like Dobbs doing a review on Sushi places.
I can just hear a heavy sigh, then Wayne sadly saying "There ain't a single hush puppy in this place."
Dagga Boy
11-29-2014, 12:33 PM
I HATE these threads. I managed to talk myself into another AUG A3..........argghhhhh. This one is getting the krylon, field beater treatment, while Black Betty will maintain the home defense role.
Failure2Stop
11-29-2014, 12:47 PM
Maybe I missed it, but where are you finding A3s?
Malamute
11-29-2014, 12:58 PM
Maybe I missed it, but where are you finding A3s?
Page 1 and 2, Buds Gun Shop, Pete Athens, and CDNN.
I think theyre A-3's,.....
rob_s
11-29-2014, 01:14 PM
So a $1700 gun is a better choice than a $1k gun and a $200 tax stamp?
The AUG is an anachronism for a reason, and not just because of the various legal impediments.
Happy day for anyone that likes them, but those shooters that I've found favoring them are way more interested in the special snowflake-ness than any functional advantage.
LittleLebowski
11-29-2014, 01:39 PM
So a $1700 gun is a better choice than a $1k gun and a $200 tax stamp?
The AUG is an anachronism for a reason, and not just because of the various legal impediments.
Happy day for anyone that likes them, but those shooters that I've found favoring them are way more interested in the special snowflake-ness than any functional advantage.
While the majority may not agree with him, nyeti certainly isn't coming off to me as looking for "special snowflakeness" Generalized comments like yours can be very easily taken as being meant personally.
Malamute
11-29-2014, 01:49 PM
I like the part about being able to travel easily without worrying about states that don't do SBR's and getting papers to travel with an SBR are also eliminated.
For some, the AR pistol deals with that, but the AUG looks like it doesn't take much of a back seat, and has some real advantages.
Dagga Boy
11-29-2014, 01:53 PM
So a $1700 gun is a better choice than a $1k gun and a $200 tax stamp?
The AUG is an anachronism for a reason, and not just because of the various legal impediments.
Happy day for anyone that likes them, but those shooters that I've found favoring them are way more interested in the special snowflake-ness than any functional advantage.
If you think a AR pistol with a can is a "functional" advantage, rock-on. I am not as up on this stuff as you, so I will defer to your expertise as when the 7-8" , $1000 AR pistol went on the list as a long term, functionally reliable system over a 16" piston that has been in service without issue since 77. I guess I'll just get a "special snowflake" morale patch and see how it goes.
The one I got is a used one. Also just bought a bunch of mags for under $20.
ToddG
11-29-2014, 02:52 PM
So a $1700 gun is a better choice than a $1k gun and a $200 tax stamp?
I'm so out of my lane that I'm approaching oncoming traffic, but my generalized thought is that a gun I can pick up at the store today for $1700 has a distinct advantage over one I need a tax stamp for that may take months and only save me a few hundred bucks. And that's assuming someone lives in and only travels to states where the SBR is an option.
OTOH, I've often said in relation to handguns that uncommon guns are uncommon for a reason.
But on the third hand I used to make fun of Cody for shooting a CZ... and now he looks a lot more like a trailblazer than an outlier.
This is why I stick to handguns...
OTOH, I've often said in relation to handguns that uncommon gnus are uncommon for a reason.
[cough] Because they're gnus? [cough]
ToddG
11-29-2014, 02:57 PM
Fixed. Danke amigo. Sayonara!
JodyH
11-29-2014, 03:25 PM
AUG $1600 w/5 magazines from CDNN
SBR AR15 $1000-$1200 +$200 stamp for a good build (Colt lower, LMT or BCM complete 10.5" upper)
So the comparison is more like $1600 to $1300.
When you compare the AUG at 28.25" OAL with a 16" barrel vs the AR SBR with a 29" OAL (at the position I run mine in) but with only a 10.5" barrel, the AUG starts to look pretty dang good for a $300 upcharge.
Now factor in the voodoo of making a 10.5" AR reliable and the significantly shorter effective range of a 10" vs. 16" barrel along with no interstate SBR hassles and it looks even better.
The biggest downside of the AUG? You can't Magpul-rape one as easily and it's not going to win many 3-gun matches (but then again neither is a 10" SBR).
And this is coming from a guy who owns 2 SBR AR's and no AUG.
I'm so out of my lane that I'm approaching oncoming traffic, but my generalized thought is that a gun I can pick up at the store today for $1700 has a distinct advantage over one I need a tax stamp for that may take months and only save me a few hundred bucks. And that's assuming someone lives in and only travels to states where the SBR is an option.
One issue is, realistically, there are not many "stores" you can go and get and pick up an AUG today. As opposed to the AR, where it is the rare gun shop without them.
As to legality, until such time as the Sig brace/AR pistol goes away, you can generally legally transport your short barrel AR pistol where you can carry your 229. In a number of states, it is legal to have a chamber loaded pistol, like your AR, but not a loaded long gun like the AUG. I Like an AAC 9 inch .300 AR upper, and to my ears, unsuppressed, it is quieter than 5.56 out of a 16 inch barrel.
As a guy with more pistol platforms than could ever justified, I have no basis to suggest you should not have an AUG. And, I did have several for a few decades. I just think they are an additional niche choice to supplement an AR for a long gun loving' shooter, as opposed to a replacement for the AR system.
JodyH
11-29-2014, 03:29 PM
btw: did anyone else picture a giant hairy snowflake?
MD7305
11-29-2014, 03:52 PM
btw: did anyone else picture a giant hairy snowflake?
Maybe a snowflake with a big ole 'stache saying "harden the f**k up!" as it gracefully falls from the heavens?
Default.mp3
11-29-2014, 04:04 PM
All this talk about the advantages of bullpups has me intrigued by the Desert Tech MDR. The ability to easily swap between 7.62×51mm and 5.56×45mm (including SBR set-ups), along with a factory four position gas block, ambidextrous controls, a steel cheekweld section to protect against catastrophic ammunition failure, light weight (7.5 lbs.), uses Magpul magazines, etc. Checks all the right boxes, and, in theory, more versatile than the AUG. And with DT's pedigree, I suspect it'll be quite accurate for a "fighting" rifle.
ToddG
11-29-2014, 04:07 PM
Checks all the right boxes...
One of my boxes would be "Robust, independently tested and proven in the field."
I've had a few " special snow flake / just because" guns but they don't last long if I don't see results. I bought my A1 AUG in the early 1990's because I tried one and shot it very well. I've kept it because it has proven accurate, reliable and ... I still shoot it well despite decades with the AR platform. The doughnut reticle is a little limiting but for snap shooting out to 100 it's great.
I have an 11.5" SBR AR and have a 14.5" M4 issued at work - they also work just fine.
Re AR Pistols, the 7, 8, &9" barrels work OK in 300 blk but I wouldn't want to go shorter than 10.5" and carbine gas in a 5.56. 11.5 - 12.5 seems to run better.
Coyotesfan97
11-29-2014, 04:45 PM
When I worked on the full time squad there were two guys who had very fast reloads with the black 16" AUGs with Aimpoints on top with the technique I described in an earlier post. We were shooting a lot and those guys rocked. Would they win at three gun? I'm not sure but their reloads were just as fast as some of the part time guys with ARs.
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Default.mp3
11-29-2014, 04:58 PM
One of my boxes would be "Robust, independently tested and proven in the field."
Well, that's not quite a feature, but a valid point. Hence why I'm merely intrigued, rather than committed to jumping onto the platform. Honestly, I'm be interested in it much more as a 7.62×51mm battle rifle than a 5.56×45mm platform, and there aren't too many civilian-accessible, lightweight modern battle rifles that can check that box, either (the SCAR-17S, SR-25 EMC/APC/ACC, and... ?).
Dagga Boy
11-29-2014, 06:11 PM
Funny, you can't go to a store and find one, yet I keep finding them..:confused:. I generally don't shop for guns in stores much anymore, so it is what it is.
I still have and shoot AR's. I simply prefer the AUG for the role I use a carbine in. Of course, unlike most of the detractors, I have actually run one for real on a neutral playing field....the field. Not in a match or training course set up by AR folks for AR folks. Again, I am totally good with my Snowflake guns, could give a crap if those who have never done a single scary thing with a carbine who want to question my choice. I have deployed both the AR and the AUG in the United States extensively, so it's not like I am basing my decisions on some theory about what works where, I am basing it on actual field work. If that is how we define Special Snowflakes, well I ll just be a Snowflake. The reality is that guys who have actually done versus pontificated from a keyboard are Special Snowflakes on the net.
John Hearne
11-29-2014, 06:49 PM
So, if the AUG has all of these inherent advantages, does it follow that a Tavor which takes AR magazines, is shootable from either shoulder, and has quality aftermarket trigger superior to an AUG?
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk
So, if the AUG has all of these inherent advantages, does it follow that a Tavor which takes AR magazines, is shootable from either shoulder, and has quality aftermarket trigger superior to an AUG?
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk
On paper, yes. One thing I've always liked about the AUG was it feels / points very naturally, like a good fitting shotgun. I know feel doesn't always equal performance but the Tavor feels like a 2x4 to me.
Darryl, I think a more reasonable statement would be that:
1) The AUG is rarely found in stores. They are best purchased from a few sources.
2) AUG parts are even rarer, and you best have a stash of parts or back-up guns, as you never know whether Steyr USA is in or out of the game, and the local gun shop is highly unlikely to have parts.
3) The AUG has a different manual of arms than the AR, and unless you are going to standardize on the AUG, you will need to maintain proficiency on two different 5.56 systems.
4) They are a pain in the ass if you have a right and left hand shooter in the same house/team.
5) Despite being expensive, rare and different -- they fill a niche like nothing else, and for someone that appreciates cool, different stuff, and a, compact in size, carbine with a non NFA length, they are the cat's meow!
Dagga Boy
11-29-2014, 07:49 PM
Would agree with all of the above George. As far as the Tavor....my Uzi lovin Jew side says yes, but I am not willing to invest the time. Right now I have one preferred system that I have to know professionally, one I prefer personally, and several I know just from the instructional/knowledge base standpoint. I need one more like a hole in the head. Not against them, and I know a few folks with time on them that love the things.
littlejerry
11-29-2014, 07:50 PM
So, if the AUG has all of these inherent advantages, does it follow that a Tavor which takes AR magazines, is shootable from either shoulder, and has quality aftermarket trigger superior to an AUG?
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Not sure if its on topic or not but I'd love to hear some AUG vs Tavor debate. I've always been fascinated by the AUG. I was very focused on pistols when the Tavor hit the market and missed/ignored much of the discussion.
I may need to get out more, but I don't know a single person with a Tavor. Anyone here have one and care to comment?
LSP972
11-29-2014, 08:01 PM
So, if the AUG has all of these inherent advantages, does it follow that a Tavor which takes AR magazines, is shootable from either shoulder, and has quality aftermarket trigger superior to an AUG?
Dunno, but I handled both today, and while I was underwhelmed with both, handling-wise, the Tavor was particularly unimpressive because it looked and felt like a high-end water gun or AirSoft thing. Lots of plastic… CHEAP-feeling plastic, at that.
True enough, the ergos on the Tavor are "better"; the safety is conventional, the charging handle is easier to lock the bolt back, etc. But good grief, it looks and feels like a cheap POS. It may be the greatest combat rifle ever to come down the pike… but it looks and feels like a cheap POS.
The AUG surprised me with the weight; heavier than I envisioned. It has a lot of plastic too, but it looked and felt more refined. This was an A3 model. I have no doubt that, given some time and reps, I would learn to like the feel of the AUG. However, with three Colts, 30+ years of experience on that "platform", and a plethora of support gear to hand, its a bit difficult to drop close to two grand (by the time I pay fees and extra magazines) on a completely different system that I may, or may not, learn to like.
So, my ardor for an AUG has cooled.
.
LittleLebowski
11-29-2014, 08:11 PM
While to me, "field use" means military field conditions, I have met and trained with folks issued AUGs in severe field conditions (Omani paratroopers) that spoke glowingly of the rifle.
Dagga Boy
11-29-2014, 08:54 PM
While to me, "field use" means military field conditions, I have met and trained with folks issued AUGs in severe field conditions (Omani paratroopers) that spoke glowingly of the rifle.
My military folks who have used them are the main reason I got into them. My field use is in the United States doing several different things. While the Helo stuff is a weird use that has little relevance to anyone, the amount of time that I used one during private sector high threat protection, is very much like what many people would likely face if using them as an armed citizen. This included domestic residence protection (very high level of threat....enough that I had the AUG on my body every minute I was there for an extended period), and actually having an attempt made to take down our witnesses on a vehicle convoy during a witness protection detail. I spent a couple years pretty much carrying an AUG while working in the private sector that convinced me of its viability, even with its negatives.
LittleLebowski
11-29-2014, 09:03 PM
The ballistics are hard to beat. However, I have to think about brother Sean M's eyewitness account of an SA80 kabooming. That being said, I've never heard of an AUG blowing a guy's face off.
Dagga Boy
11-29-2014, 09:21 PM
The ballistics are hard to beat. However, I have to think about brother Sean M's eyewitness account of an SA80 kabooming. That being said, I've never heard of an AUG blowing a guy's face off.
I have heard of two. One a blank induced incident you likely couldn't repeat, the other one with a bolt rusted into to chamber so it couldn't unlock. Both guys lived with fairly minor injuries. I am less afraid of my AUG after actually researching this than my AR's.
Failure2Stop
11-29-2014, 10:19 PM
The prices I've seen on the A3 are making me seriously consider picking one up. There's always a place for a short, effective option, even if it isn't funny immediately ambidextrous.
ReverendMeat
11-29-2014, 10:50 PM
I would like to extend a heavily sarcastic "thanks" to the OP and thread contributors (Nyeti, I'm looking at you). I have other things that I should be spending money on and all this thread has done for me is make me think about buying a stupid AUG. But I have never shot one and my last "special snowflake" gun was a Robinson Arms XCR (which I really liked by the way, but it's not a bullpup) so I've been wondering a couple things.
Regarding the AUG A3 specifically,
1) The charging handle seems pretty stubby and seems like it was designed for tearing one's fingers off on the rail when manipulating it. Also would seem to make locking the bolt to the rear trickier if using the variant without a separate bolt catch. Training issue or non-issue?
2) I've had a couple people tell me that it was unpleasant to shoot due to the feel and noise of the action reciprocating so close to your face. Seems like it'd be the AR "sproing" multiplied by ten. Valid complaint or whining?
3) Are there any known or foreseeable downsides to the "NATO" variant outside of "the rifle wasn't originally designed for it"?
1slow
11-29-2014, 11:57 PM
Having had 2 early AUGs, 1 Norinco 86s Bullpup AK, High Standard 10A and 10B (12 Gauge) and shooting a buddies Tavor a bit I have these conclusions. YMMV.
1 handed carbine work while damaged or carring/moving other people is easier with a bullpup.
Confined spaces, cars etc... are easier to move in and around. As nyeti stated an AUG (etc...) does not stick out farther than a pistol.
You have to answer the question if for your purposes these advantages are more important than full ambidextrous use.
I have done a lot of drills doing 1 hand carbine work LH and RH to include reloads, stoppage reductions, positional changes standing, kneeling prone , supine etc... and a bullpup would have been easier than an AR, AK IMHO.
Might be the ultimate bedside gun with an X400 and a T1.
Currently I have none of the above but am contemplating an AUG or Tavor.
Dagga Boy
11-30-2014, 12:33 AM
Regarding the AUG A3 specifically,
1) The charging handle seems pretty stubby and seems like it was designed for tearing one's fingers off on the rail when manipulating it. Also would seem to make locking the bolt to the rear trickier if using the variant without a separate bolt catch. Training issue or non-issue?
2) I've had a couple people tell me that it was unpleasant to shoot due to the feel and noise of the action reciprocating so close to your face. Seems like it'd be the AR "sproing" multiplied by ten. Valid complaint or whining?
3) Are there any known or foreseeable downsides to the "NATO" variant outside of "the rifle wasn't originally designed for it"?
1) Just have to know how to do it, and it isn't a function you use a ton. If it is an issue, multiple very good after-market solutions.
2)Whiners.......Harden the F*#K Up. Hearing the action of my carbine next to my ear laying hate upon my enemies and awaiting the lamentations of their women is like ballistic Viagra.
3)Personally, just a recipe for everything that has ever gone wrong with many things in the gun world......making stuff into things they are not. I have "heard" the are not as reliable, and not as user friendly on the mag changes. Again, I just bought another 10 mags at under $20 a piece that are one of the most proven and reliable of all the polymer mags..........I could see maybe owning a NATO stock for an Armagedon thing, but I like mine the way the Austrians designed and for the mags that were designed for it.
Sean O
11-30-2014, 01:16 PM
I have always wanted/liked bull pups, and this thread is not helping me save money. If I go forward and pick one up, it is between the AUG and Tavor. The main attraction for me with the Tavor is the mag commonality with our AR's, especially when we take classes. I know you can purchase the NATO stock for the AUG, but honestly if I choose the A3 I would rather pony up the dough and grab mags that were designed for the gun.
Hopefully I can find someone who has one of each try, because how it shoots will most likely be the decider for me. Damn you P-F, costing me money yet again...
Beat Trash
11-30-2014, 02:28 PM
I am in the same boat. The current pricing of the Tavor and the AUG A3 is close enough to make it a wash between the two.
I am not inclined to get a platform that doesn't take AR mags, only because I am well stocked in them. I hear mixed comments on the NATO stocked AUG. Some have no issue, some claim to have issues with them.
The concept of a bull pup does have some merit, as Nyeti often points out. I can understand Nyeti's fondness for the AUG as he has so much time invested in the platform.
But I would be interested to hear from anyone who owns both a Tavor and a AUG. And their thoughts comparing the two platforms. If starting anew in the world of a bullpup which one to go with, the AUG or the Tavor?
John Hearne
11-30-2014, 03:02 PM
But I would be interested to hear from anyone who owns both a Tavor and a AUG.
Good overview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfxzrwmMJ2o
Kyle Reese
11-30-2014, 03:31 PM
Hearing the action of my carbine next to my ear laying hate upon my enemies and awaiting the lamentations of their women is like ballistic Viagra.
Sig line material right there. :cool:
Beat Trash
11-30-2014, 04:59 PM
I just watched the video that John linked. The guy in the video stated that the AUG was NOT 5.56mm chambered, but 223 chambered. That was why he was using Wolf 62 gr 223 test ammunition.
But I went to the Styer USA website and it lists the AUG A3 as being 5.56mm chambered. Can any AUG owners verify that the gun is in fact chambered in 5.56?
Sean O
11-30-2014, 07:06 PM
Nyeti covered that in this post (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14062-Let-s-talk-about-the-AUG&p=270648&viewfull=1#post270648), seems it works just fine.
Beat Trash
11-30-2014, 08:06 PM
Thanks for the clarification.
I had a hard time believing it wasn't chambered in 5.56.
I need to find an AUG A3 to handle along side of a Tavor.
Or I need to stay away from the internet. The more I read posts on the AUG from guys with experience with them, the more dangerous it becomes for my wallet.
Coyotesfan97
11-30-2014, 08:20 PM
Unfortunately for my wallet I'm considering adding an A3 to augment my A1. At least I won't have to buy magazines!
Sean O
11-30-2014, 09:22 PM
At least I won't have to buy magazines!
Now you're just showing off.
No, because I already have : magazines, ammo, holster etc is a perfect "reason" to buy a gun ....
For example, I have two boxes of 10mm ammo left over from the Colt Delta Elite I foolishly sold two decades ago so obviously I "need" a Gen 4 Glock 20.......
Dagga Boy
12-01-2014, 11:18 AM
No, because I already have : magazines, ammo, holster etc is a perfect "reason" to buy a gun ....
For example, I have two boxes of 10mm ammo left over from the Colt Delta Elite I foolishly sold two decades ago so obviously I "need" a Gen 4 Glock 20.......
Glad to see I am not the only one...;-). I am the guy who bought a 5.5" Colt SAA because I had a very rare holster for it.....it was on the list of must owns, the holster just helped on the which one selection.
irascible_joe
12-01-2014, 06:09 PM
1) Just have to know how to do it, and it isn't a function you use a ton. If it is an issue, multiple very good after-market solutions.
Could you please elaborate on proper technique? I had the same concern about tearing up my hand on the rail.
Andy T
12-01-2014, 08:20 PM
Could you please elaborate on proper technique? I had the same concern about tearing up my hand on the rail.
Always manipulate the charging handle with palm up. Don't mount any overly wide optics/mounts that protrude too much on the left side. I admit that locking the bolt via CH is a little challenging at times, but I am running at 99% rate of success. After running the rifle in a two day class, I developed a small callus at the tip of my left pinky finger. I suspect the CH was at fault.
Dagga Boy
12-01-2014, 11:29 PM
Could you please elaborate on proper technique? I had the same concern about tearing up my hand on the rail.
A couple of ways. The Australians teach thumb and forefinger palm down. The Austrians teach palm up with the pinky and ring finger with upward pressure from the upturned palm to help lock. I use the Austrian method. Manticore and some others make extended charging handles that have gotten rave reviews. If I was really running a high round count schedule again, and working daily, operationally with an AUG, this would likely be an option.
Mounts for optics and accesories is critical to make sure they work, and rubberized rail covers for the exposed areas also help.
Sean O
12-02-2014, 12:05 AM
Nyeti, what mount do you use for your aimpoints on the aug? I'm reading about the Tavor rail being low but it looks like the aug rail hight is similar to an AR, so I'm guessing standard mounts? Thanks in advance!
overton
12-02-2014, 07:54 AM
Try the hk416 height.
Dagga Boy
12-02-2014, 10:57 AM
Nyeti, what mount do you use for your aimpoints on the aug? I'm reading about the Tavor rail being low but it looks like the aug rail hight is similar to an AR, so I'm guessing standard mounts? Thanks in advance!
On the AUG with the low standard rail, HK416 is the correct height for mounts and sights. The Tavor uses stock AR. It is not really the rail height or height over bore, but the relationship if the cheek weld to the rail. There is a gig military rail for the AUG that may work with the low mounts. I am meeting with Giles Stock tomorrow and he should have the heights figured out.
Dagga Boy
12-05-2014, 01:30 PM
Met with Giles and checked out his AUG A3 M1 in a Mud stock. It is REALLY nice. He is finding the sweet spot on optics to be 1.9" above the stock at the rear of the rail. The trigger on his is beyond good.....but that is a given. My boss at Aimpoint (former Marine Scout-Sniper) was so impressed with the gun, he is ordering one. He is very good on an AR and has plenty, but he immediately saw the utility of the size and not having to deal with SBR stuff. He is from Ireland, so they are not "weird" to him (used by the Irish Army and Irish Ranger Wing).
I am looking forward to my new A3, and will run that with a Aimpoint, and will likely begin experimenting with a A3 M1 next year with the 3X optic and a top mounted micro red dot.
I am not giving up on the AR platform at all........it would be stupid to do that. I just taught a class with one of my favorite AR's (full Centurion Arms gun built for me by Monty), and Monty has a new Lightweight gun he is building for me specifically to highlight the new Aimpoint T1. So essentially, the AR is still something I am heavily vested in professionally. As far as what fits "my life" these days, the AUG is a great fit. I am also finding that the AUG is a great fit for a lot of folks if they really take a hard, un-emotional look at what their life really entails and how a 5.56mm carbine fits into that life.
Sean O
12-05-2014, 07:17 PM
Thank you Neyti and HCM.......a Tavor will be here next week. Already have the mags and sling, and like you guys said it just makes sense. Looking forward to entering the world of bull pups.
irascible_joe
12-05-2014, 07:44 PM
A couple of ways. The Australians teach thumb and forefinger palm down. The Austrians teach palm up with the pinky and ring finger with upward pressure from the upturned palm to help lock. I use the Austrian method. Manticore and some others make extended charging handles that have gotten rave reviews. If I was really running a high round count schedule again, and working daily, operationally with an AUG, this would likely be an option.
Mounts for optics and accesories is critical to make sure they work, and rubberized rail covers for the exposed areas also help.
Excellent, thanks. Are any of the various trigger mods worth considering, or should you just work on mastering the stock trigger?
Dagga Boy
12-05-2014, 07:56 PM
Work on the stock one. There is a device out there that helps, but my understanding is it makes the reset mushy. I have no issues shooting the stock trigger. You just need to give it some time with an open mind and understand that it "is not an AR" trigger, and learn to run it.
coldcase1984
12-05-2014, 10:19 PM
I wanted one of the black LE-only models that were available briefly in '94, but Mama said no.
Using an 11.5-in. 6933 for work these days, and have gathered several personal ones, too.
This thread has definitely fanned that 20-year-old flame, Nyeti. I'm digging the SBR OAL w 16/in. Ballistics for more than the house-clearing aspect, though.
This carbine with a simple Leupold 2.5x Ultralite would make for a compact truck rifle as well as hide pretty easy in a sneaky bag in plain sight.
I saw on the Steyr website there's a higher rail available for bigger optics. Has anyone wrung one out for precision work with higher-powered scopes Nyeti? I saw what you wrote about 2 MOA with red-dot or holo sights earlier.
Drang
12-05-2014, 11:58 PM
How do you attach the bayonet on these things?
How do you attach the bayonet on these things?
The threads behind the muzzle are for a bayonet lug, apparently.
JodyH
12-06-2014, 10:43 AM
How do you attach the bayonet on these things?
Now we're getting somewhere.
John Hearne
12-06-2014, 05:00 PM
Not AUG specific but interesting research on bullpup performance compared to conventional rifles: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/lovesick-cyborg/2014/11/30/hollywoods-science-fiction-guns/#.VINux1fF_BE
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk
Dagga Boy
12-06-2014, 07:15 PM
Not AUG specific but interesting research on bullpup performance compared to conventional rifles: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/lovesick-cyborg/2014/11/30/hollywoods-science-fiction-guns/#.VINux1fF_BE
Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk
Didn't mention the AUG in Die hard............WTF, this was poor research:p.
Sean O
12-07-2014, 08:50 PM
Nyeti, I noticed you run a compM4s on your AUG that you posted a pic of. Thinking about the Tavor and I am going back and forth on just getting a PRO, or continuing to put a micro on everything that launches 5.56. Wondering if you have a preference for bull pup setup over AR?
Dagga Boy
12-07-2014, 09:43 PM
On the AUG I am only running the M4 as its only sight. I have thrown an M4 on concrete and asphalt a thousand times in demo's, so I am confident in its ability to be as bulletproof as a red dot can get, along with insane battery life. With my new AUG, likely a T2 with some 416 back up sights. The AUG set up to run the sights with no spacer on the M4 and 30mm with the micro's.
The Tavor's rail is set up like an AR (they have a pretty high sight over bore height). Everybody I know running Tavors seem to love the PRO on them as they set up perfect out of the box and are cheap for what you get. Most are running them in conjunction with Magpul MBUS's back ups.
ReverendMeat
12-07-2014, 11:01 PM
Nyeti, I noticed you run a compM4s on your AUG that you posted a pic of. Thinking about the Tavor and I am going back and forth on just getting a PRO, or continuing to put a micro on everything that launches 5.56. Wondering if you have a preference for bull pup setup over AR?
I'd do the PRO 'cause it's awesome and cheap but on the Tavor what really matters is the height of your mount. The stock has a somewhat annoying shape to it that makes it difficult to get behind the optic if you're using a shorter mount. For me anyhow, the Trijicon ACOG and RMR with the standard factory mounts are damn near unusable, where the PRO and Micro were okay, but even then I wanted taller mounts. Or maybe I just need a different mount for my cheekbones, I dunno.
David S.
12-08-2014, 05:38 PM
Nyeti. Check your pm when you get a chance.
Thanks,
David
So a $1700 gun is a better choice than a $1k gun and a $200 tax stamp?
The AUG is an anachronism for a reason, and not just because of the various legal impediments.
Happy day for anyone that likes them, but those shooters that I've found favoring them are way more interested in the special snowflake-ness than any functional advantage.
If I wanted a compact gun in a rifle caliber, I'd prob pay an extra $500 to avoid the wait & legal BS of the SBR. To each his own. Nobody is saying anything is better...just another option on the table.
How do you attach the bayonet on these things?
It plugs into the pistol grip for horizontal butt stroke slashes
Dagga Boy
12-08-2014, 10:19 PM
Cause it apparently matters.............:confused:
Dagga Boy
12-23-2014, 06:26 PM
GJM did a great job shooting a tight group from sitting with my A3 AUG and the Aimpoint T2.
Darryl is even more dangerous, now that he knows how to post photos on the forum. He is no longer a virgin when it comes to an AR pistol, the Sig brace, and .300 BLK.
I used to say that while Darryl can be annoying on the web, he is a peach on the phone. Well, in person he is amazing. Wish he could be my next store neighbor!
JodyH
12-23-2014, 07:28 PM
Ahhhhh..... a budding bromance.
Dagga Boy
12-23-2014, 08:04 PM
We are actually sort of neighbors now. It is kind of fun having GJM and his wife close with our vacation homes. As much as we bicker like old women, we are bickering about stuff that we are passionate about that is actually the same thing.
http://www.slickguns.com/product/steyr-aug-a3-223-16-3x30rd-2x42rd-magazines-sling-179999-1298-sh
ReverendMeat
12-31-2014, 01:07 AM
http://www.slickguns.com/product/steyr-aug-a3-223-16-3x30rd-2x42rd-magazines-sling-179999-1298-sh
Damn you.
Failure2Stop
12-31-2014, 09:35 AM
http://www.slickguns.com/product/steyr-aug-a3-223-16-3x30rd-2x42rd-magazines-sling-179999-1298-sh
I don't need an AUG...
I don't need an AUG...
I don't need an AUG...
I totally want to buy that...
WobblyPossum
12-31-2014, 09:48 AM
I don't need an AUG...
I don't need an AUG...
I don't need an AUG...
I totally want to buy that...
You and me both. It's a great price and all the bullpup talk has me curious.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
LittleLebowski
12-31-2014, 10:10 AM
I don't need an AUG...
I don't need an AUG...
I don't need an AUG...
I totally want to buy that...
My suppressor fund is quaking at the sight of that page....
JodyH
12-31-2014, 10:25 AM
Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water.
The CDNN AUG deal had completely slipped my mind up until this reminder.
My suppressor fund is quaking at the sight of that page....
Mine too.
JodyH
12-31-2014, 12:28 PM
I already have a Gemtech Trek just sitting on a shelf in my safe waiting on a rifle to mate with.
Coyotesfan97
12-31-2014, 12:40 PM
If I had the coin! That's a sweet deal.
Between you guys and Bolke, nobody has a chance. My AUG is enroute from CDNN.
ReverendMeat
12-31-2014, 03:45 PM
I already have a Gemtech Trek just sitting on a shelf in my safe waiting on a rifle to mate with.
Any experience with a suppressed AUG?
Sean O
12-31-2014, 04:49 PM
I need an AUG...
I need an AUG...
I need an AUG...
I totally am going to buy that...
There we go, all fixed for you sir!:cool:
JodyH
12-31-2014, 05:39 PM
Between you guys and Bolke, nobody has a chance. My AUG is enroute from CDNN.
If I hadn't already bought a FAL and a PTR91 this month I'd be whipping out the checkbook for an AUG.
JodyH
12-31-2014, 05:41 PM
Any experience with a suppressed AUG?
Nope, it just looks like an awesome combination.
If I hadn't already bought a FAL and a PTR91 this month I'd be whipping out the checkbook for an AUG.
Lucky for you, CDNN appears to have extended the sale to 1/31/15.
JodyH
12-31-2014, 06:07 PM
Lucky for you, CDNN appears to have extended the sale to 1/31/15.
Cool. I get another bonus check on the 9th.
:cool:
ReverendMeat
12-31-2014, 07:59 PM
Nope, it just looks like an awesome combination.
Well here's hoping it works out with the can I have pending, I just placed an order for the AUG with CDNN. This thread has been bad for my bank account.
S Jenks
01-02-2015, 03:04 AM
From those with experience, which would you recommend for the first-time AUG buyer - the A3 or M1 with 1.5x factory optic? I have a Meprolight RDS on backorder just begging for a home and I own a relatively new PRO, but really am looking for a justification to splurge on the OD M1 and I really enjoy the classic look of the fixed optic.
Use would realistically be punching paper and the occasional carbine course at the SIG Academy. It would replace my braced AR pistol as my bedside gun but honestly, the chances of needing one in my tiny condo or in any fantasy zombie scenario are nil.
Furthermore, if I were to buy the M1 with one of the two rail options instead of the fixed 1.5x optic, does the longer rail offer any real advantage over the short rail? Wouldn't the extra real estate of the A3 be better than the two shorter M1 rails? Color preferences and rails/optics aside, are there other fundamental advantages justifying the cost of the M1 over the A3?
At the 2009 Silencer shoot a AUG was being shot suppressed near us. It sounded almost unsuppresssed; I wouldn't recommend a suppressor. IIRC, the gun vents excess gas, etc. similar to a suppressed AK.
ETA: That and the ejection port is right next to your ear; I wouldn't expect bull pups to suppress well. This is also 6 years ago; I may not recall correctly.
Chuck Whitlock
01-06-2015, 11:09 AM
Good overview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfxzrwmMJ2o
Nice review. That outfit happens to be local to me.....it's where I bought my M&P9. Glad to see a dearth of derp.
At the 2009 Silencer shoot a AUG was being shot suppressed near us. It sounded almost unsuppresssed; I wouldn't recommend a suppressor. IIRC, the gun vents excess gas, etc. similar to a suppressed AK.
ETA: That and the ejection port is right next to your ear; I wouldn't expect bull pups to suppress well. This is also 6 years ago; I may not recall correctly.
There are suppressor systems built to mitigate this.
Dagga Boy
01-08-2015, 11:56 PM
From those with experience, which would you recommend for the first-time AUG buyer - the A3 or M1 with 1.5x factory optic? I have a Meprolight RDS on backorder just begging for a home and I own a relatively new PRO, but really am looking for a justification to splurge on the OD M1 and I really enjoy the classic look of the fixed optic.
Use would realistically be punching paper and the occasional carbine course at the SIG Academy. It would replace my braced AR pistol as my bedside gun but honestly, the chances of needing one in my tiny condo or in any fantasy zombie scenario are nil.
Furthermore, if I were to buy the M1 with one of the two rail options instead of the fixed 1.5x optic, does the longer rail offer any real advantage over the short rail? Wouldn't the extra real estate of the A3 be better than the two shorter M1 rails? Color preferences and rails/optics aside, are there other fundamental advantages justifying the cost of the M1 over the A3?
My "next AUG" will be an M1 with the 3X optic and a Micro Aimpoint mounted on top. For just running a red dot, the A3 is fine as you can get the optic behind the charging handle notch, which I find to be important. My current "bedside AUG" has a Aimpoint Comp M4 mounted all the way to the rear, and an HK416 fixed front sight in case of some type of optics failure will work like a big ghost ring with the tube of the M4 and the front sight.
ReverendMeat
01-12-2015, 01:09 AM
My AUG came in from CDNN a couple days ago. I have yet to shoot it but after attaching the provided sling I saw immediately that it interferes with operation of the charging handle (I'm right-handed). To avoid this I have the strap running around and underneath the right side of the rifle in between the foregrip and trigger guard, which keeps it out of the way of the CH. Seems to work but not really ideal. Apologies if this has come up before, but is there a good way to set up a 2 point sling for this rifle?
Dagga Boy
01-12-2015, 07:57 AM
This starts getting into the "how often am I working the charging handle during any kind of tactical operation". While it is one of those "it seems like this is going to be an issue" it doesn't really pan out that way.
Cecil Burch
01-12-2015, 11:32 AM
Three questions for nyeti:
1) Do you find any problems making a transition from running an AR to running the AUG? Any issues with the different manual of arms? And if you don't now have those issues because of experience, did you find any problems in the early days of running those platforms?
2) any handling problems with the light mounted where it is? Pictures can be deceiving but it seems that with it offset maybe you run into places where it gets in the way. Or is that one of those things that just happens with different guns? I.E. nothing is ever 100% perfect and we work around minor things (like the sling and charging handle issue).
3) why run the M4 so far back? Is there a particular reason for that because it is a bullpup, or is it due to a particular thing with the AUG?
TIA
Dagga Boy
01-12-2015, 11:36 PM
Three questions for nyeti:
1) Do you find any problems making a transition from running an AR to running the AUG? Any issues with the different manual of arms? And if you don't now have those issues because of experience, did you find any problems in the early days of running those platforms?
2) any handling problems with the light mounted where it is? Pictures can be deceiving but it seems that with it offset maybe you run into places where it gets in the way. Or is that one of those things that just happens with different guns? I.E. nothing is ever 100% perfect and we work around minor things (like the sling and charging handle issue).
3) why run the M4 so far back? Is there a particular reason for that because it is a bullpup, or is it due to a particular thing with the AUG?
TIA
1. If I spend a lot of time with one over the other, yes, it can be an issue. Again, best analogy is Apple vs. P.C. I can use both and have spent a majority of my computer life on the PC (AR), but lately mostly use a Mac (AUG). When I get on a PC, it can take a few minutes to remember where everything is. Same thing. I find the AUG to be pretty easy to use and it doesn't take much to get things working. Another analogy......the AUG is like a Gen. 2 Glock to me. It doesn't matter what I am shooting, I can always shoot them. The AR is like a 1911 for me.......same thing, no matter what I am shooting it is easy to figure out.
2. The light is the "weirdest" thing right now. It is workable but not optimal. I could get the thing optimal like my A2, but I like the simplicity of this set up. If I was working as a cop still, I would get it set up different. For the way I am running it as a Home gun, the solution is good. It's a minor work around.
3. By running the optic to the rear I find it quicker to the eye coming off the mount from the low ready. It also clears where the charging handle locks to the rear. The AUG is super fast from the low ready to the cheek weld mount, so the rearward optic simply emphasizes this positive aspect.
Cecil Burch
01-13-2015, 01:09 AM
Nyeti - thank you. I have almost zero time on any bull pup so before taking the plunge I am doing a lot of thinking/researching. I appreciate the answers very much.
mcantu
01-14-2015, 01:22 AM
nyeti,
have you run any heavy rounds (77gr) through your AUG?
i was finally able to try out some CBC 77gr SMKs through my AUG-A1 and was glad to see that they stabilized just fine out of the 1/9 barrel and grouped slightly better than the various 62gr rounds i've tried lately (ADI F1; Garl Gustaf) at 50 and 100 yds
There are suppressor systems built to mitigate this.
Are you referring to the Rat work products?
Have you heard one or seen it metered? (Not being snarky; I just have no idea how they perform)
Shot my new AUG from CDNN today. Really enjoyed it, although if the trigger was a few pounds lighter, I wouldn't complain. AR triggers, like the SSA quickly spoil you.
It shot Privy ball very well. I had a box of 50 of what I thought was the Black Hills 50ish grain Barnes bullet ammo, but it turned out to be 70 Barnes. That ammo shot like crap. Anyone have a suggestion for an acceptable carry load, and a source for it?
What is the light arrangement -- SF Scout with the remote switch on the vertical grip?
Sigfan26
01-18-2015, 08:59 PM
Shot my new AUG from CDNN today. Really enjoyed it, although if the trigger was a few pounds lighter, I wouldn't complain. AR triggers, like the SSA quickly spoil you.
It shot Privy ball very well. I had a box of 50 of what I thought was the Black Hills 50ish grain Barnes bullet ammo, but it turned out to be 70 Barnes. That ammo shot like crap. Anyone have a suggestion for an acceptable carry load, and a source for it?
What is the light arrangement -- SF Scout with the remote switch on the vertical grip?
If it shot the 70gr (solid copper stuff trends to be a bit longer than standard construction) poorly, I'd opt for sub 70gr bonded ammo (the 62gr tsx should stabalize, as well) . I get my stuff from SGAmmo.
ReverendMeat
01-19-2015, 12:26 AM
What is the light arrangement -- SF Scout with the remote switch on the vertical grip?
I don't know if a remote switch would be ideal given it'd have to be removed every time you pull off the barrel. On mine right now I've got a Crimson Trace CMR 202 mounted to the rear of the rail. It probably isn't ideal either but it's really easy to activate quickly.
65k10
02-04-2015, 10:58 AM
I don't know if a remote switch would be ideal given it'd have to be removed every time you pull off the barrel. On mine right now I've got a Crimson Trace CMR 202 mounted to the rear of the rail. It probably isn't ideal either but it's really easy to activate quickly.
It wouldn't be ideal, but with the scout you could just unscrew the tailcap when you need to remove the barrel keeping you from removing the tape switch. My current setup is an E2E body with a and LED head in a Vtac offset mount putting the light at 3 o'clock at the front of the rail. Then I ran a tape switch down to the VFG, which is secured with bicycle inner tube. It's not perfect, but I tried something similar to Nyeti's setup and it was too awkward for me.
This is my solution to the light problem:
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/fatcook/a5b87cb5-632f-4283-b7e0-4e97bad29df6_zpswkqufwju.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/fatcook/SAM_0297_zpsemqx4irl.jpg
http://i1192.photobucket.com/albums/aa334/fatcook/SAM_0304_zpsctsuf0j3.jpg
Ugly but functional, and much less shadowdy than a light on the right side pic rail. You do lose one handed light activation however.
It's a Surefire universal barrel mount, a GG&G 1" flashlight ring and a Surefire G2X
Josh, I ran that light arrangement like 20 years ago on my green AUG!
I have it in the back of my mind, that Darryl said the Larue mount and AUG rail weren't the happiest interface. Might check with him. I have a PRO on my AUG with the OEM mount, less one spacer.
I'll have to ask him about that.
The ML2 is just there until I make up my mind on another regular sized Aimpoint or an RMR... I'm sure I'll decide in the next eight months.
At any rate, the gun shoots into three or four inches at 100 with this set-up, so I'm not complaining.
I have my Aimpoint all the way to the rear of the rail, like you, to keep from skinning my fingers when working it. As a result no BUIS, which makes me leery about an RMR as a sole aiming system.
I have my Aimpoint all the way to the rear of the rail, like you, to keep from skinning my fingers when working it. As a result no BUIS, which makes me leery about an RMR as a sole aiming system.
Tom just suggested I reverse the optic in the mount so as to put the lever on the right side of the gun. Brilliant!
S Jenks
02-21-2015, 01:10 PM
Largely due to Nyeti's insight I purchased an AUG A3 late last month for use as an HD rifle. I mounted a TLR-1 HL to the side rail with a tape switch attached to the front of the trigger guard. This requires moving my hand off the VFG but with the rifle's balance, using the guard as a substitute VFG is not really that awkward.
If this was going to be a used as a patrol rifle I'd probably find a more conventional setup but this will be used at classes/live under the bed at night.
After shooting it, and cutting my thumb in a most annoying manner, I ordered and installed a Manticore Switchback, which I am very happy with. Locking back the bolt takes zero effort for me and I like how the handle folds neatly out of the way. While it's intended role will probably never require locking back the bolt, it does make administrative handling easier.
mcantu
02-22-2015, 01:16 PM
Largely due to Nyeti's insight I purchased an AUG A3 late last month for use as an HD rifle. I mounted a TLR-1 HL to the side rail with a tape switch attached to the front of the trigger guard. This requires moving my hand off the VFG but with the rifle's balance, using the guard as a substitute VFG is not really that awkward.
If this was going to be a used as a patrol rifle I'd probably find a more conventional setup but this will be used at classes/live under the bed at night.
After shooting it, and cutting my thumb in a most annoying manner, I ordered and installed a Manticore Switchback, which I am very happy with. Locking back the bolt takes zero effort for me and I like how the handle folds neatly out of the way. While it's intended role will probably never require locking back the bolt, it does make administrative handling easier.
were you operating the charging handle palm-up? thats how you're supposed to do it
S Jenks
02-22-2015, 03:14 PM
were you operating the charging handle palm-up? thats how you're supposed to do it
I realized that all too quickly.
ReverendMeat
02-23-2015, 12:40 AM
I realized that all too quickly.
Steyr gives that warning on nearly every page of the manual :p
S Jenks
02-23-2015, 03:33 AM
Steyr gives that warning on nearly every page of the manual :p
Who needs that!?
But in all seriousness, after my thumb stopped bleeding and I had my PRO sighted in, I was very happy with my purchase. I'm looking forward to running it through some courses this summer. My two most recent purchases are an AUG and a revolver; two unfamiliar firearms (to me!) that I plan on focusing on for a while.
Mike Honcho
02-24-2015, 05:28 PM
Is there any credible AUG-specific trainers, courses, DVDs, Art of the Dynamic Bullpup, etc out there? I'm starting to get the fever.
coldcase1984
03-18-2015, 10:05 AM
Watching Tunisian security guys fielding them on Fox right now...
So I got to looking today. Cdnn seems to only have the nato stock version, and PJ only had the M1 version. I don't think I want either of those.
LittleLebowski
04-16-2015, 07:12 AM
I still want one of these.
LOKNLOD
04-16-2015, 06:38 PM
I still want one of these.
Yeah, let's please stop bumping this while I have all my tax return money fresh in hand.
pcanzac
04-19-2015, 05:07 AM
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/19/8eab687626f0f81c2ad2f4dd0526a825.jpg
buzz_knox
04-24-2015, 07:53 PM
I got to check out a friend's AUG A3 today. Neither of us have had a chance to fire it. But running it dry, I noticed something odd. When cocked with the magazine out, the charging handle is easy to run. When the hammer is down but the mag is out, the rifle is harder to charge but not terribly so. With a mag in and the hammer down, it's a serious chore. I can get it locked back but not without some effort and after a couple false starts. Is this normal for an AUG that's not been broken in?
buzz_knox
04-24-2015, 10:30 PM
Apparently my phone won't let me edit so I'll just say that on further reflection, the answer to my question is glaringly obvious. New hammer spring plus new mag spring equals more resistance.
breakingtime91
04-25-2015, 09:25 AM
have we done a comparison thread between the tavor and the aug?
ReverendMeat
04-25-2015, 11:09 PM
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14253-IWI-Tavor/page3
Sean O (post #30) does a quick comparison between the two and the AUG vs. Tavor question has come up earlier in this thread. I don't think there's been a whole thread about it yet though.
Beat Trash
04-26-2015, 08:44 AM
have we done a comparison thread between the tavor and the aug?
I would really like to see an objective comparison done between the two.
I've handled both, side by side at a store. Some things I really like about each design, some things about each design I wish were different. I do not have any experience shooting either one though.
gtmtnbiker98
04-26-2015, 09:49 AM
I would really like to see an objective comparison done between the two.
I've handled both, side by side at a store. Some things I really like about each design, some things about each design I wish were different. I do not have any experience shooting either one though.
You are more than welcome to shoot my Tavor, sometime at my range in Wilmington.
S Jenks
04-27-2015, 12:38 AM
I got to check out a friend's AUG A3 today. Neither of us have had a chance to fire it. But running it dry, I noticed something odd. When cocked with the magazine out, the charging handle is easy to run. When the hammer is down but the mag is out, the rifle is harder to charge but not terribly so. With a mag in and the hammer down, it's a serious chore. I can get it locked back but not without some effort and after a couple false starts. Is this normal for an AUG that's not been broken in?
I just ran my AUG through a Sig LE rifle course. While it's only at ~500 rounds so far, the hard pull on the charging handle does seem to ease up.
BarryinIN
08-17-2015, 09:01 PM
I know the thread is old, but I only recently found it and wanted to say how much I've enjoyed reading it over the past couple of evenings.
I'm an AUG convert, and have been preaching the gospel since getting an A3 three years ago. I didn't think much of them in the late 80s, and by the time I started coming around they were in the Class 3 price category.
One thing that didn't help me was the few AUG owners I knew of were not what anyone would call knowledgeable gun people. When I saw them owned by the types who buy guns based on movies, and the real users buying something else, I came to a conclusion pretty quickly whether correct or not.
If I'd had this to read about 1988, I imagine I might have done some things differently.
An HK P7 analogy was made previously, and while I don't fully agree with that one, I have compared them in the past. Or rather, the perception of them. Both the AUG and P7 are guns surrounded by myths. It seems a lot of people know aaallllll about them whether they've ever so much as picked one up. Use either a little bit, and most will find some "facts" aren't necessarily right. The most serious use I've put my AUG to has been a couple of classes, but my mag changes didn't require an hourglass to time, no kabooms took my face off, and the planet didn't spin off its axis when I changed shoulders. One might have expected that by listening beforehand.
No gun is perfect, and I wish the AUG was lighter, but the balance more than ofsets that. I have a back injury/condition that frankly kicks my a$$, but I am able to shoot more standing or up drills with the AUG than rifles weighing a lot less. That has been a Godsend for me, and has let me shoot more than I might otherwise.
DPris
09-05-2015, 12:58 AM
Been following this thread as a linked referral from another site in response to my question there asking for AUG owners' experiences & impressions.
Useful info.
I'm seeing little to no reference made concerning the A3M1 version with integral 3x optic.
Nobody uses or advocates it?
That was one of the features that stuck in mind about 32 years ago when I first encountered an AUG.
Did not care much for the lower-powered glass on it back then, but did like the integral scope idea.
As heavy as the AUG is, if I keep the loaner I have here it won't have anything added to increase that weight, so I'm thinking this 3x integral is the version that I'd prefer.
Is the lack of commentary on the integrals due to them not holding up long-term, or mostly because users prefer to go with dots & other optic devices?
BarryinIN
12-09-2015, 02:30 PM
My opinion on the M1 is its a step backwards. At least, I don't see any gains over the A3. The A3's rail lets you use whatever optic you want, including some Austrian AUG-specific ones similar to what the M1 uses.
I'm also guessing most AUG buyers had theirs before the M1 came out, which is why you don't hear much about them. I've yet to see one in captivity.
JSGlock34
12-11-2015, 08:02 AM
I think the major appeal of the M1 is the nod to the classic AUG A1 lines with the integrated optic vice any practical advantage.
Dagga Boy
12-11-2015, 09:36 AM
My opinion on the M1 is its a step backwards. At least, I don't see any gains over the A3. The A3's rail lets you use whatever optic you want, including some Austrian AUG-specific ones similar to what the M1 uses.
I'm also guessing most AUG buyers had theirs before the M1 came out, which is why you don't hear much about them. I've yet to see one in captivity.
Yes and no to some of this. I have four AUG's of every flavor (a1,A2, and two A3's). For a straight up home defense/close quarter carbine, the A3 is the hot ticket with an Aimpoint. My house gun has a Comp M4, my beater shooter and training gun has a T2. A friend of mine just bought his first AUG and is looking for a do everything single carbine. He went M1 with the 3x and will mount an Aimpoint micro on top. This is identical to what some of the Austrian high speed units are running. They have the optic figured out to consistently hit to 600 meters, and use the Aimpoint T1 on top for close range and fast movers. Works well. There is some new stuff coming down the pipe from an Austrian SF guy and the Austrian military SME on the AUG. I can't talk about it till it is released, but it is an optic set up that will likely end up on one of my guns or another AUG in the stable.
Money wise, I think the M1 is a good gun for those who want to buy it and go shoot. I would rather see someone with an M1 than and A3 and craptastic optic on it.
JSGlock34
12-11-2015, 01:09 PM
There is some new stuff coming down the pipe from an Austrian SF guy and the Austrian military SME on the AUG. I can't talk about it till it is released, but it is an optic set up that will likely end up on one of my guns or another AUG in the stable.
You have my attention, sir. Very intriguing.
JSGlock34
03-27-2016, 08:32 PM
Looks like there will be a limited 'retro' run commemorating the adoption of the AUG as the STG-77. Though I have an A3 I'm sorely tempted by the original lines...
Steyr 40th Anniversary Special AUG Model Available Soon! (http://www.pjs-steyraug.com/STG77.html)
6784
There is some new stuff coming down the pipe from an Austrian SF guy and the Austrian military SME on the AUG. I can't talk about it till it is released, but it is an optic set up that will likely end up on one of my guns or another AUG in the stable.
Nyeti - any updates on this?
Dagga Boy
03-28-2016, 11:20 AM
Not at this point.
As far as the 40 th Anniversary.....I can just go out to the safe and pet the beater. On a positive note...took my A3 out to SRT training last week. Really shot well and made the day enjoyable.
Randy Harris
03-29-2016, 10:53 AM
GJM did a great job shooting a tight group from sitting with my A3 AUG and the Aimpoint T2.
Nyeti,
Was this gun in the pic (page 16 post #151) a factory camo stock or did you paint it. If painted what was the base color? Was it green you painted tan or tan you painted green?
Dagga Boy
03-29-2016, 03:26 PM
Nyeti,
Was this gun in the pic (page 16 post #151) a factory camo stock or did you paint it. If painted what was the base color? Was it green you painted tan or tan you painted green?
Black with a tan and OD krylon job in my garage. Original owner put a tan base on it and I just reapply with a rattle can as needed.
Randy Harris
03-29-2016, 04:06 PM
Well I think it looks great. I may do the same to mine.
Default.mp3
05-27-2016, 12:49 AM
Supposedly, there will be importation of the F90 coming, with hopeful projections at around SHOT 2017.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/13254860_10156928720510416_117053552121571833_o.jp g
Source: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/05/23/lithgow-arms-usa-importing-thales-aus-ef88f90-atrax-rifle-nra-2016/
Dagga Boy
05-27-2016, 02:28 PM
Talked to a AUG SME yesterday and we are both of the same thoughts....no thanks.
Kyle Reese
05-27-2016, 03:07 PM
Supposedly, there will be importation of the F90 coming, with hopeful projections at around SHOT 2017.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/13254860_10156928720510416_117053552121571833_o.jp g
Source: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/05/23/lithgow-arms-usa-importing-thales-aus-ef88f90-atrax-rifle-nra-2016/
I don't know why, but I'm lusting after one.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I don't know why, but I'm lusting after one.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I don't know why you are either.
:-)
Josh Runkle
05-27-2016, 04:56 PM
Talked to a AUG SME yesterday and we are both of the same thoughts....no thanks.
You don't like the aesthetics, or there's a functional issue or some other knowledge causing your dislike?
Dagga Boy
05-27-2016, 07:50 PM
The Australians bought the original AUGs, but wanted to do the gun themselves. They had problems not seen in the Austrian guns. Same with every company who has tried making their own AUG's...most are problem children.
I don't see a thing you are gaining over the Austrian guns by buying one from a place who has had less than stellar luck with them, cannot sell them to their own people, but want you to buy them. Now if somebody wants to be the test run on these, great. I ll stick with the well proven gun that has had its development and improvements based on what is working and field proven. Some guns just don't take well to duplication, this is one of them.
mcantu
05-31-2016, 10:56 PM
The Australians bought the original AUGs, but wanted to do the gun themselves. They had problems not seen in the Austrian guns. Same with every company who has tried making their own AUG's...most are problem children.
I don't see a thing you are gaining over the Austrian guns by buying one from a place who has had less than stellar luck with them, cannot sell them to their own people, but want you to buy them. Now if somebody wants to be the test run on these, great. I ll stick with the well proven gun that has had its development and improvements based on what is working and field proven. Some guns just don't take well to duplication, this is one of them.
The initial problems Australia had was because they decided to use a cheaper polymer than what Steyr used. This was corrected fairly early on though.
I like the idea of the F90 (lighter weight, shorter LoP, smoother cycling) but i hate the implementation. It's another example of modern firearms designers being all about function with no consideration to form. I am going to pick up some of the Magpul AUG mags when they become available later this year...
Unobtanium
06-01-2016, 04:06 AM
Maybe a stupid question...but why not the X95 instead? Is this like the 1911 where it's all about sentimentality, or does the AUG offer something I'm missing?
Dagga Boy
06-01-2016, 08:21 AM
Maybe a stupid question...but why not the X95 instead? Is this like the 1911 where it's all about sentimentality, or does the AUG offer something I'm missing?
I am not "against" the Israeli bullpups. They are like many things in that I am not seeing any personal gain from moving to them over what I am invested in. Kind of like when the M&P came out. No reason to switch off the Glock at the time. I am simply not seeing any benefit from the Israeli guns over the AUG, and the things that are supposed pluses are the things I just switch to an AR for. I run my AUG's as simple as possible...red dot, sling, light and that is it, and generally use them in the pistol environment. Learning a new gun for me is not worth it. Otherwise, I also really like the ergonomics of the AUG personally. Others may like the Israeli guns, and I am pretty agnostic on it as I have not heard any real horror stories about the Israeli guns.
BarryinIN
06-01-2016, 06:58 PM
I got the nickel tour of the preliminary F90 import at the NRA show, and I'll also stay with the AUG.
Along with Nyeti's point about the Australian's track record of producing their own, I think they took it a step or two backward. They trimmed weight partially by eliminating the quick change barrel. OK, maybe the QC barrel isn't necessary, but in its place they have basically combined the upper receiver, barrel, locking lugs, and rail into one unit. I don't really care for that.
The example at the show had the serial number on the barrel. I know that can move before production, and it needs to. I would guess it would probably go to the polymer upper "receiver" via molded-in steel plate. It still ends up with all those pieces tied together.
They also talked up their mags that were coming from Magpul. At the Magpul booth they didn't seem to know much about that. Perhaps it was a case of Magpul keeping quiet, but it didn't inspire confidence.
In any case like this, the newcomer has to either be superior or cost a lot less. The Steyr works, and works well. Unless the Lithgow costs a lot less and that difference truly determines whether a guy can get one or not, I don't see much point in not staying with Steyr.
ReverendMeat
06-04-2016, 06:05 PM
Maybe a stupid question...but why not the X95 instead? Is this like the 1911 where it's all about sentimentality, or does the AUG offer something I'm missing?
Does the X95 offer something I'm missing?
I don't see why people think the Tavors are automatically better than the AUGs. Nyeti's comparison of AUG:Glock::Tavor:M&P is pretty apt.
BarryinIN
06-05-2016, 01:23 PM
Does the X95 offer something I'm missing?
I don't see why people think the Tavors are automatically better than the AUGs. Nyeti's comparison of AUG:Glock::Tavor:M&P is pretty apt.
I don't get it either. I have heard people say they like the Tavor better, which is fine, but then their explanation of why makes no sense. They will name off things like the Tavor uses AR mags, not knowing the AUG can be had that way. Or say the Tavor has a rail to give you a choice in optics, again not knowing current AUGs have rails.
I'd say it's because the Tavor is the (relatively) new thing and gets all the coverage, but the AUG has gotten a lot of coverage for a 40-year-old rifle over the past few years too.
Maybe it's just part of the overall ignorance of bullpups. I'd still think anyone spending $1800+ on one would do some looking at what is basically the only competition.
I've owned AUGs and shot Tavors, both the standard and the X-95.
There is nothing really wrong with the Tavor other than it handles and feels like a 2x4.
The AUG handles well and I shoot it well.
Dagga Boy
06-06-2016, 01:24 PM
I don't get it either. I have heard people say they like the Tavor better, which is fine, but then their explanation of why makes no sense. They will name off things like the Tavor uses AR mags, not knowing the AUG can be had that way. Or say the Tavor has a rail to give you a choice in optics, again not knowing current AUGs have rails.
I'd say it's because the Tavor is the (relatively) new thing and gets all the coverage, but the AUG has gotten a lot of coverage for a 40-year-old rifle over the past few years too.
Maybe it's just part of the overall ignorance of bullpups. I'd still think anyone spending $1800+ on one would do some looking at what is basically the only competition.
The AUG has developed a lot since its inception, just like the AR platform. A 1980's AR is not the AR of today, just like the AUG of today is not like the 80's guns. The difference is because of numerous bans and Steyr really getting boned on the first one, we have missed much of the development that has been going on in Austria and with other end users.
Default.mp3
06-28-2016, 01:01 PM
Now Shipping: PMAG® 30 AUS GEN M3 Window
http://www.magpul.com/Admin/Public/GetImage.ashx?Image=/Files/Files/Images/Products/Magazines/MAG575/MAG575_Hero.jpg&Width=1200&Height=700&altFmImage_path=/Files/Files/Images/Products/noImage.png&Crop=5
The PMAG 30 AUS GEN M3 Window (http://www.magpul.com/products/pmag-30-aus-gen-m3-window) is a 30-round 5.56x45 NATO polymer magazine for Steyr® AUG/F88/F90 compatible weapons that features transparent windows to allow rapid visual identification of approximate number of rounds remaining.
Similar to the GEN M3 PMAG for the AR15/M4, the PMAG 30 AUS features a long-life USGI-spec stainless steel spring, four-way anti-tilt follower and constant-curve internal geometry for reliable feeding, and simple tool-less disassembly to ease cleaning. In addition, low profile ribs and aggressive front and rear texture gives positive control in all environments, and a paint pen dot matrix has been added to the bottom panel of the body to allow easy marking by the end user for identification. The easy to disassemble GEN M3 flared floorplate aids in extraction and handling, and is slimmer than factory Steyr floorplates for better fit in magazine pouches.
Durable, dual-side transparent windows allow for quick determination of approximate number of rounds remaining in the magazine. Utilizing a high visibility indicator coil on the spring and numerical markers on the magazine body, the MagLevel™ system provides positive verification with the added benefit over translucent magazines of displaying round-count even when the cartridge stack is obscured within the magwell.
FEATURES:
Next-generation impact and crush resistant polymer construction
Designed specifically for Mil-issue Steyr AUG, F88 Austeyr, and F90
Modified dimensions provide a slimmer footprint than factory Steyr magazines
Constant-curve internal geometry for smooth feeding
Anti-tilt, self-lubricating follower for increased reliability
Long life USGI-spec stainless steel spring, black-oxide coated (MIL-DTL-13924D)
Anti-glare translucent MagLevel windows on both sides of the body along with a painted indicator on the spring allows for easy determination of rounds remaining from 1 to 30
Over-travel insertion stop on the spine
Ribbed gripping surface and aggressive front and rear texture for positive magazine handling
Paint pen dot matrix panels on the bottom of the body to allow for identification marking
Flared floorplate aids magazine handling and disassembly yet is slim enough for use with many mag pouches
Made in U.S.A.
Learn more at www.magpul.com (http://www.magpul.com/)
http://www.magpul.com/Admin/Public/GetImage.ashx?Image=/Files/Files/Images/Products/Magazines/MAG575/Single/MAG575_Single.jpg&altFmImage_path=/Files/Files/Images/Products/noImage.png&Width=950&Height=450&Crop=5
http://www.magpul.com/Admin/Public/GetImage.ashx?Image=/Files/Files/Images/Products/Magazines/MAG575/Double/MAG575_Double_1.jpg&altFmImage_path=/Files/Files/Images/Products/noImage.png&Width=500&Height=320&Crop=5
http://www.magpul.com/Admin/Public/GetImage.ashx?Image=/Files/Files/Images/Products/Magazines/MAG575/Double/MAG575_Double_2.jpg&altFmImage_path=/Files/Files/Images/Products/noImage.png&Width=500&Height=320&Crop=5
http://www.magpul.com/Admin/Public/GetImage.ashx?Image=/Files/Files/Images/Products/Magazines/MAG575/Double/MAG575_Double_3.jpg&altFmImage_path=/Files/Files/Images/Products/noImage.png&Width=500&Height=320&Crop=5
http://www.magpul.com/Admin/Public/GetImage.ashx?Image=/Files/Files/Images/Products/Magazines/MAG575/Double/MAG575_Double_4.jpg&altFmImage_path=/Files/Files/Images/Products/noImage.png&Width=500&Height=320&Crop=5
http://www.magpul.com/Admin/Public/GetImage.ashx?Image=/Files/Files/Images/Products/Magazines/MAG575/Double/MAG575_Double_5.jpg&altFmImage_path=/Files/Files/Images/Products/noImage.png&Width=500&Height=320&Crop=5
https://www.magpul.com/Admin/Public/GetImage.ashx?Image=/Files/Files/Images/Products/Magazines/MAG575/Double/MAG575_Double_6.jpg&altFmImage_path=/Files/Files/Images/Products/noImage.png&Width=500&Height=320&Crop=5
https://www.magpul.com/products/pmag-30-aus-gen-m3-window
Well, it is cheaper than the Steyr 30 round OEMs.
The Steyr OEM's are some of the best made 5.56/plastic magazines ever. SIG 550 series are the others. Worth the money, imo.
Poconnor
06-30-2016, 09:18 AM
I want to know more about the vertical grip mount in the magpul photo above.
Default.mp3
06-30-2016, 09:35 AM
I want to know more about the vertical grip mount in the magpul photo above.Looks like just an AUG A3 with a Magpul RVG is all. Not sure what kind of rail that is, but it appears to be some kind of factory option, as this is seen on Steyr's own website about the A3:
https://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_assaultrifle_STEYR_AUG_A3_16113c631a.png
Josh Runkle
06-30-2016, 12:20 PM
Looks like just an AUG A3 with a Magpul RVG is all. Not sure what kind of rail that is, but it appears to be some kind of factory option, as this is seen on Steyr's own website about the A3:
https://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_assaultrifle_STEYR_AUG_A3_16113c631a.png
That looks like a Kriss CRB grip to me (which I'd guess is just a cheap, rebranded grip made by another company). It does not look like a Magpul RVG to me.
Josh Runkle
06-30-2016, 01:32 PM
He was referring to the VFG in a image in a previous post:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14062-Let-s-talk-about-the-AUG&p=465242&viewfull=1#post465242
Ah. Gotcha. My bad.
Drang
07-03-2016, 01:46 PM
It's this:
https://steyrarms.com/steyr-aug-factory-accessory-rail-kit.html
8884
Now with tuning fork!
QuickStrike
07-12-2016, 11:57 PM
Got one today. Forgot I had an aimpoint laying around. Took the light and sling from an AK. :D
https://i.imgur.com/1mQO4DK.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/OJZrEyG.jpg
Adding the light was a little tricky and this is the item most likely to change. Without the tape switch I had to stick my thumb over the pic. rail and under the aimpoint to activate. With the tape switch I have to move my support hand back and under to work it. Feels better like this?
Are tape switches the suck, and prone to breakage?
Joe in PNG
07-13-2016, 05:48 AM
Now with tuning fork!
Or one of these (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WaveMotionTuningFork?from=Main.DoubleProngedEnergy Gun)
Kyle Reese
07-13-2016, 09:37 AM
Nice setup, QuickStrike.
Ryan127
07-13-2016, 09:40 AM
I bought a couple of the new Magpul AUG mags. I ran about 100-150 rounds through the three mags I bought with no problems. The Magpul magazines are a tad longer than the Steyr magazines. I have a good supply of the Steyr mags, but will probably get some more Magpul ones too.
9085
9086
K.O.A.M.
07-14-2016, 02:30 PM
I just bought a couple of the Magpul magazines with some other stuff I was ordering from Brownells. I am completely a Nyeti disciple on these rifles-I traded him one of his four a while back and missed it so much that I went out and bought another one. I'm looking for a regional 2-day class to take that will allow me to try it out in a setting with some pressure. Mine wears an Aimpoint CompM4, a Surefire Scout, and a VTAC sling. I'm also on the list for one of the anniversary ones from PJ's.
I have seen some of the accessories Nyeti references in this thread-a lot of good stuff, designed by a SME on the AUG's. Once he makes them public, I will post pictures.
jeep45238
07-14-2016, 05:11 PM
I hate you all so much.
JSGlock34
07-14-2016, 06:08 PM
I have seen some of the accessories Nyeti references in this thread-a lot of good stuff, designed by a SME on the AUG's. Once he makes them public, I will post pictures.
I've definitely been intrigued by nyeti's posts on the AUG accessories, particularly the optic setup. I'm just hoping that whatever comes out is usable on the A3 as well as the A3/M1.
Poconnor
07-20-2016, 09:02 AM
I've been seeing hints about new AUG acessories for the last 8 months. I got tired of waiting. I picked up a Surefire scout light on sale that I mounted on the right side rail. I can activate it with my right thumb, not ideal but doable. I just picked up an American defense modular mount for an aimpoint T1. Went to mount it; opened the socom riser box. Found a little card that said my purchase had been checked for quality. Now the little screws were missing. Emailed the place I purchased it from. They told me to contact American defense. I emailed them and they mailed me the screws. Hopefully I will finally get to shoot it this week
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