KeyMod vs. M-LOK

[Jay Cunningham]

Just when it seemed like KeyMod was the new hotness, along comes M-LOK and some people are apparently already stating that KM is now obsolete!

What say you???

[texasaggie2005]

I don't think Keymod is obsolete, but I do think it's falling behind. Keymod has been out for what, 2 years, and some accessories are just now starting to trickle out from a few manufacturers. Magpul's M-Lok is barely 7 months old and Magpul has pushed 10+ accessories to date, more coming this year, and even more at SHOT show. That's not even counting the other manufacturers (100+ claimed) that are hitching to the M-Lok bandwagon. It's even gained strength with Geissele's MK8 rail, ALG's new budget EMR rail, Midwest Industry's rails, Troy's reboot of the VTAC line to use M-Lok, and I read a rumor that Noveske might remake the NSR with M-Lok. Heck, I even think the new Hodge Defense carbine is M-Lok. Those are all name brands with a lot of visibility, plus, Magpul is on a straight up rampage of product releases and PR campaigns. But, with that said, I think Keymod has had longer visibility to the .mil world, and if they adopt it, even in a small way, Keymod will be here to stay.

[Molon]

M-LOK goodness . . .


https://app.box.com/shared/static/ebm35s0zc4kyno05wn08.jpg




https://app.box.com/shared/static/g4irvc4duq52f2v366hn.jpg




https://app.box.com/shared/static/1o8b1rxj1ncjqs8ruj06.jpg



....

[Maple Syrup Actual]

My belief is that either will be fine for the foreseeable future.

I don't own any of either, though. And honestly I have almost no use for any rails other than 12 o'clock, and some way to attach a stubby grip at 6. So neither seems especially important to me.

[Unobtanium]

Just when it seemed like KeyMod was the new hotness, along comes M-LOK and some people are apparently already stating that KM is now obsolete!

What say you???

MLOK strikes me as better than KM because (and keep in mind I own neither, but plan on buying one soon):

MLOK is more durable (larger surface areas interacting)
MLOK is easier to machine
MLOK works with polymer.
MLOK is brand-neutral. (Colt, etc. use Magpul. It's not tied to a competing firearm manufacturer like KM is).
MLOK only has ONE version, not half a dozen used by various companies.
MLOK looks like something you would find on a firearm, not in a warehouse. To some people, this matters all else being equal between the two.
MLOK handles impact/recoil better on/from multiple axis.

KM strikes me as better because:

KM uses less ID of the rail to the attachment system.
KM is currently more "established" in the market.


I don't think Keymod is obsolete, but I do think it's falling behind. Keymod has been out for what, 2 years, and some accessories are just now starting to trickle out from a few manufacturers. Magpul's M-Lok is barely 7 months old and Magpul has pushed 10+ accessories to date, more coming this year, and even more at SHOT show. That's not even counting the other manufacturers (100+ claimed) that are hitching to the M-Lok bandwagon. It's even gained strength with Geissele's MK8 rail, ALG's new budget EMR rail, Midwest Industry's rails, Troy's reboot of the VTAC line to use M-Lok, and I read a rumor that Noveske might remake the NSR with M-Lok. Heck, I even think the new Hodge Defense carbine is M-Lok. Those are all name brands with a lot of visibility, plus, Magpul is on a straight up rampage of product releases and PR campaigns. But, with that said, I think Keymod has had longer visibility to the .mil world, and if they adopt it, even in a small way, Keymod will be here to stay.

MLOK released first, then KM.

Block 3 will be a tube-system, they are open to suggestions other than KM, which won't be in the running, as I understand it.

[Surf]

I really don't care much as I don't attach many things and don't reconfigure often. I need a light which I like at 12 o'clock in front of the irons and a sling set up, so no need for modularity in the majority of my rifles. Having the ability is not a bad thing and does not hurt my simplistic approach, so why not keymod? Quite frankly it is ugly and big box store like. No big deal as weight and utility is the key for true "gunfighters" so who cares about aesthetics anyway, right? While aesthetics doesn't top my list, looking like a Costco or Home Depot shelving afterthought isn't high on my list either.

I took quite a bit of heat on another forum from those who went "all in" with keymod and they took my opinions as some type of assault on the King, but I stuck to my opinion. No knock on the guys who came up with Keymod and made it open source and I appreciate the forward thought, but like anything time will tell. I have no trouble stating that I own 3 keymod rails but that is a small number in the grand scheme of how many rails I actually have and I have no plans of acquiring more keymods. Again kudos to innovation and forward thought. Without the keymod, who knows if emmlock would have emerged. Competition is good, especially for those who like to play dress up and change Barbies dress all the time. Now they can go from day time casual to evening wear with a simple or more simple click. How many different dress options are available to Barbie and on the market, plus how easily she can slip out of one and into another and how good she looks in the raw might become the deciding factors. ;)

[LittleLebowski]

I don't really care but I think M-lok will win out due to less machining time and the way it's been open sourced to quickly. I own a Keymod rail (the fantastic BCM KMR) that works fine.

[gtmtnbiker98]

1913 still works for me, all I attach is an optic, VFG and a light. I don't play Barbie with my flame stick(s).

[Unobtanium]

1913 still works for me, all I attach is an optic, VFG and a light. I don't play Barbie with my flame stick(s).

All the more reason to go Keymore or MLOK instead of having all that useless 1913 cheesegrater space.

[John Hearne]

I really don't care much as I don't attach many things and don't reconfigure often. I need a light which I like at 12 o'clock in front of the irons and a sling set up, so no need for modularity in the majority of my rifles.

This is pretty much where I am. Except for a class where I needed to mount a PEQ (12:00 X300 blocked the IR laser), I haven't changed my basic rifle setup in years.

I just bought a new upper and went with a Keymod for convenience more than anything else. I wanted a BCM and they had 11.5" uppers with 10" keymods in stock. I could have bought an upper with no rail and a FSB. I then could have cut the FSB down, refinished it and installed an M-Lok but I didn't because the BCM was such a turnkey solution.

If I had to speculate, I think that M-Lok will "win" for all of the reasons listed above but that's OK. I am still very impressed with how svelte the Keymod is and have no regrets.

[gtmtnbiker98]

All the more reason to go Keymore or MLOK instead of having all that useless 1913 cheesegrater space.
Doesn't bother me. When I replace (note I didn't say upgrade) I may consider the flavors of the month. All I need my personal and department guns to do is go bang and maintain the attached equipment.

[JM Campbell]

All the more reason to go Keymore or MLOK instead of having all that useless 1913 cheesegrater space.

Dude I like my tactical cheese grater, cheddar has never been grated so well for my camp fire chilli.

I do however wish there where some 8" keymod rails available. Specifically the KMR for my AR pistols where I want to be the lightest possible.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[rob_s]

I'm still mourning the loss of Picatinny, specifically the original DD M4 rail which (with the exception of no built-in QD sockets) was perfect when combined with Larue Index Clips. However, with there being various KM and ML handguards available for 1/2 to 1/3 the price of the Picatinny systems, it becomes harder to justify sticking with what I love.

I have both a KM and ML handguard. The KM is installed but unfired, and the ML is not yet even installed. So far, I find the ML attachment method to be more difficult. That's about the extent of my comparison.

I will say that the availability of direct-attach VFGs and plastic covers are pretty much a requirement for me. I've tried going without both and dislike what I've encountered.

I will also say that I suspect that if BCM offers up a 16" ELW-F, BFG barreled upper with 15" KMR handguard, I probably won't be able to resist plunking down the cash and making everything else I own match up to it.

[LittleLebowski]

I will also say that I suspect that if BCM offers up a 16" ELW-F, BFG barreled upper with 15" KMR handguard, I probably won't be able to resist plunking down the cash and making everything else I own match up to it.

That does sound pretty good, reminds me that I need to create a thread on barrel profiles.

[rob_s]

That does sound pretty good, reminds me that I need to create a thread on barrel profiles.

That upper came available with the non-CHF barrel, and I almost bit. I'm really not sold on the CHF voodoo but right now it's an excuse NOT to buy the goddamn upper to replace one that works just fine.

Then there is the temptation to just go all-KAC, buy three more-than-functional guns from them, and go another 10 years without changing much of anything on them like I did with my original 3 Colts. At which point I'd be invested in the Keymod anyway.

Which, to come back to the topic at hand, I think is where things will get interesting relative to the VHS/Beta we have now... what do the OEMs choose? KAC is obviously all-in with Keymod. As is Noveske. Both boutique brands, to be sure. Of course, there really aren't many rifle manufacturers who also manufacture their own handguards, so I suppose they're free to bolt the new hotness on to their standard guns at any time.

[Jay Cunningham]

The CHF thing eludes me as well. I don't *think* it's something that makes any difference for me and my uses.

[texasaggie2005]

The CHF thing eludes me as well. I don't *think* it's something that makes any difference for me and my uses.

In this Luckygunner Labs test (http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/), they shot out a Spike's Tactical CHF barrel in ~6,000rds of Tula 5.56 steel case ammo. I know it's a data point of 1 and ammo is probably to blame. But the two other non-CHF barrels in the test that shot crummy steel case ammo (Wolf & Brown Bear), lasted longer.

[Unobtanium]

The CHF thing eludes me as well. I don't *think* it's something that makes any difference for me and my uses.
I found my FN CHF CL barrels don't hold copper NEARLY as much as button rifled CL barrels.

[orionz06]

In this Luckygunner Labs test (http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/), they shot out a Spike's Tactical CHF barrel in ~6,000rds of Tula 5.56 steel case ammo. I know it's a data point of 1 and ammo is probably to blame. But the two other non-CHF barrels in the test that shot crummy steel case ammo (Wolf & Brown Bear), lasted longer.

I'm not too convinced that "event" they had gives us much useful info.

There are also other reasons I'd be cautious comparing components from that event.

[texasaggie2005]

I'm not too convinced that "event" they had gives us much useful info.

There are also other reasons I'd be cautious comparing components from that event.

Like what? I'm genuinely curious. Still learning a lot about the AR platform technicalities.

Since this is pretty off topic of the thread, a PM would be fine.

[TR675]

I found my FN CHF CL barrels don't hold copper NEARLY as much as button rifled CL barrels.

Is this really an issue? I don't clean my CL rifle barrels anyway, other than to patch them when I clean out the chamber.

[Unobtanium]

Is this really an issue? I don't clean my CL rifle barrels anyway, other than to patch them when I clean out the chamber.

Define issue. I've never had a problem with bare steel barrels from colt. No need for even chrome. Right?

[JodyH]

I've never cleaned an AR barrel with anything except a Boresnake. My used and abused BCM 14.5 will still pop 8" steel at 400Y all day long.
I finally bough a free-float rail this year, a BCM KeyMod.

[Unobtanium]

I've never cleaned an AR barrel with anything except a Boresnake. My used and abused BCM 14.5 will still pop 8" steel at 400Y all day long.
I finally bough a free-float rail this year, a BCM KeyMod.
You can do the same thing with a cheap yhm tube.

[Eli]

I'm generally a fan of Magpul stuff, that was the main deciding factor when I went with the M-Lok handguard for my carbine.

One thing that sucks is that I bought an RVG M-Lok adapter and now they've come out with a direct attach RVG and AFG. I'm really liking the looks of the direct attach AVG, will probably end up picking up one of those.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee95/ceelfi/stick13.jpg

[TAZ]

I like my KMR rail as its done what it's supposed to do very well. I don't accessorize like Barbie so all I have is a BUIS and stubby VFG on the gun. Eventually it will get a light, but that's about it. Next handguard for the wife's unit will be an ALG MLOK jobber.

From a technical standpoint both KM and MLOK will get the job done. The winner will most likely be based on supply chain. Who will be able to get accessories available at your local LGS? Who will have the most variety of goodies? That is what will become the deciding factor to most shooters, the rest is all mumbo jumbo to the majority of AR owners. On that front I think MagPul has the advantage.

[rudy99]

How does the mounting system on the Centurion CMR (http://www.centurionarms.com/category-s/1819.htm) fit into this mix? Seems to be a proprietary option. That had been my pick for a new build, however MLOK/KM have given me some pause on this.

As an aside, it seems odd to me that KM might not be the winner given BCM somewhat recently came out with their KM compatible rail. Either they are just making a bet on which way the market will go or the wind changed from the start of R&D to the product hitting the market.

[Tom Fineis]

Mlok offers a number of advantages over KM, and I think the market will respond by filling in the gaps where KM is currently ahead just because it has been available longer. ML has made very quick inroads as it is.

That said, I still don't mind lightweight quad picatinny rails. DD has been doing them right for years. Their newest "M4 Rail" is nearly as thin as a tube, doesn't require adapter rails, bolts up with a lot of strength and is about the same weight when you factor in adapter rails and hardware.

In general, I find purpose built quad rails to be more sturdy than modulars/tubes. This makes a difference with barricade shooting, bipod loading, and just overall durability of the rifle. Geissele rails and a few others are the exception, in my experience.

Now, all that said I think the one of the best options going is the ALG Mlok tube. It is stupid light and stupid cheap. The barrel nut is huge and offers more stability than many other tube rails. I don't know that it's an SPR w/ bipod type rail, but for a short, lightweight, 1x optic type rifle they are great.

For me, direct attach is a must with either KM or ML. There's little point in having this fancy modular attachment if you just have to bolt on a piece of pic rail to mount what you want. The market is getting there.

[rob_s]

The CHF thing eludes me as well. I don't *think* it's something that makes any difference for me and my uses.

I may be changing my mind, based on the recent Ballistic Radio results with the SR15. Hard to find another reason besides because:CHF it appeared that accuracy was not affected by 20k+ rounds.

[Jay Cunningham]

I may be changing my mind, based on the recent Ballistic Radio results with the SR15. Hard to find another reason besides because:CHF it appeared that accuracy was not affected by 20k+ rounds.

I guess I would ask you if shooting 20,000 rounds though the same gun/barrel is something that is an important/realistic consideration for you? Or is it a "nice to have" thing vs. a "need to have" thing? I can be convinced, but I currently have the same opinion on CHF for my purposes as I had before.

[rob_s]

I guess I would ask you if shooting 20,000 rounds though the same gun/barrel is something that is an important/realistic consideration for you? Or is it a "nice to have" thing vs. a "need to have" thing? I can be convinced, but I currently have the same opinion on CHF for my purposes as I had before.

I don't shoot near the volume I used to, but there was a time that I'd hit that mark in ~3 years. Even at 2x that long, I'd prefer to "set it, and forget it" rather than deal with the possibility of re barreling.

My #1 gun has lasted longer than that with a .625" non-CHF barrel, but that's because there were long stretches where I was shooting various other T&E guns and it didn't get touched. I'd like to get another 10 year gun to replace it, but this time it will be "the" gun instead of "a" gun.

So, possibly yes. Having a gun that can do 20k rounds with no loss of accuracy for 10 years is appealing to me. In fact, I would say that right now it's the goal.

That said, I don't know that something like the standard ELW-F can't do that too. I'm not sure that anyone knows that.

[Jay Cunningham]

What is the price difference overall?

[rob_s]

What is the price difference overall?

Right now I don't know, on the ELW or ELW-F because they don't offer it in a "BFH". But in what appears to be an apples:apples, the non-BFH is $439 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-LIGHT-WEIGHT-Upper-Receiver-p/bcm-urg-mid-16lw.htm) and the BFH of the otherwise identical upper is $515 (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-light-weight-p/bcm-urg-mid-16lw%20bfh.htm), or $76 difference. In a gun that's likely to be $3k with optic and accessories, that seems pretty minor to me to have the potential insurance/assurance.

So, probably "nice to have", but the 20k+ lifespan is definitely what I'm after.

I think Johnston has moved on to some piston gun nonsense as his next "torture test", but I'd like to see someone with the free ammo he has do a 20k test on the non-BFH ELW-F.

Back to the point of this thread, weighing MLOK, vs. Keymod, vs. Pictanny, the 10 year/20k rifle idea is the only reason I really have any consternation over it at all. If I was still in the panty-of-the-month club of the revolving door of accesory changes I'd probably not care and guy whatever weighed/looked/felt/cost in line with my current feelings.

[Sparks2112]

I think Johnston has moved on to some piston gun nonsense as his next "torture test", but I'd like to see someone with the free ammo he has do a 20k test on the non-BFH ELW-F.



Ah, but the tards want to know what a piston rifle does compared to a DI, and unfortunately I don't just "get" 20K of ammo, I have to sell the broad appeal of the project. DI vs. Piston vs. AK is something even casual "gun people" are interested in. Only hardcore gun nerds (myself included) care about the long term durability of ELW-F barrel. I do have a 14.5" pinned ELW-F on one of my builds, so I will eventually have the data point you're asking about. Just might be a year or two.

[Jay Cunningham]

Let's leave the personality wars on Facebook, please.

[Sparks2112]

Let's leave the personality wars on Facebook, please.

I thought we did? He hasn't called me a joke yet and I haven't trolled him hardly at all. :)

[rob_s]

I thought we did? He hasn't called me a joke yet and I haven't trolled him hardly at all. :)

I thought we were doing quite well, actually. My "nonsense" comment had nothing to do with John, only the fact that it was a piston AR, and I thought the response re: only getting 20k free rounds if the marketing worked was a pretty good explanation of why:piston instead of something only we might find interesting.

Need to figure out a way to get the barrel AND ammo out of BCM...

[orionz06]

I thought we were doing quite well, actually. My "nonsense" comment had nothing to do with John, only the fact that it was a piston AR, and I thought the response re: only getting 20k free rounds if the marketing worked was a pretty good explanation of why:piston instead of something only we might find interesting.

Need to figure out a way to get the barrel AND ammo out of BCM...

Ask?

You have a reference of a KAC gun with before and after.

Why not ask, shoot the test, and then have a big radio show with KAC, BCM, and you and discuss the benefits of CHF over long term courses of fire.

Freedom Munitions could get more press too.

The worst they could say is no and you'd have the same amount of ammo as you do now.

[Sparks2112]

Ask?

You have a reference of a KAC gun with before and after.

Why not ask, shoot the test, and then have a big radio show with KAC, BCM, and you and discuss the benefits of CHF over long term courses of fire.

Freedom Munitions could get more press too.

The worst they could say is no and you'd have the same amount of ammo as you do now.

I'll be seeing Paul on Monday.

[Sparks2112]

I thought we were doing quite well, actually. My "nonsense" comment had nothing to do with John, only the fact that it was a piston AR, and I thought the response re: only getting 20k free rounds if the marketing worked was a pretty good explanation of why:piston instead of something only we might find interesting.

Need to figure out a way to get the barrel AND ammo out of BCM...

It's obvious to all involved when Rob and I slide off the tracks, promise. :)

[LittleLebowski]

You guys are doing fine and thank you for adding so much to this forum. Please carry on :D

[rob_s]

Ask?

You have a reference of a KAC gun with before and after.

Why not ask, shoot the test, and then have a big radio show with KAC, BCM, and you and discuss the benefits of CHF over long term courses of fire.

Freedom Munitions could get more press too.

The worst they could say is no and you'd have the same amount of ammo as you do now.

I think John is in a much better position to accomplish this than me, given his wider following, and continued interest in performing such tests.

I'm far more interested in reading the results these days than co ducting the tests.

[Unobtanium]

Keymod is pretty much relegated to civilian life, regarding M4 type weapons, as I understand it. M-LOK has not yet been ruled out for Block III.

[saints75]

I am going with MLok because it is the new hotness:cool: All kidding aside, I am going with the MLok. I like Magpul stuff, and I have been using them for a while. I know it is good quality and will hold up under hard use.

[Unobtanium]

MLOK solves a lot of issues KM has. Much more durable setup.

[Default.mp3]

MLOK solves a lot of issues KM has. Much more durable setup.

What issues does Keymod have? I honestly haven't heard much by way of KM failures, although I'm a bit leery how there seem to be multiple iterations of it.

[Unobtanium]

What issues does Keymod have? I honestly haven't heard much by way of KM failures, although I'm a bit leery how there seem to be multiple iterations of it.

KM attachment can't tolerate too much abuse, over-tightening, or other forces. Some rails are stronger than others. Ripping the attachment hardware through the rail has happened somewhat easily. I've seen several pictures of KMR's especially. Recoil force is not very well distributed, comparatively. It has its fans, sure, it's just not nearly as robust as M-LOK.

[rob_s]

KM attachment can't tolerate too much abuse, over-tightening, or other forces. Some rails are stronger than others. Ripping the attachment hardware through the rail has happened somewhat easily. I've seen several pictures of KMR's especially. Recoil force is not very well distributed, comparatively. It has its fans, sure, it's just not nearly as robust as M-LOK.

ARe these failure pictures somewhere online that we can see? A google image search of "keymod failure" gave me nothing.

[Unobtanium]

ARe these failure pictures somewhere online that we can see? A google image search of "keymod failure" gave me nothing.

Not that I am aware. Nor were they given to me to share.

[HCM]

Keymod is pretty much relegated to civilian life, regarding M4 type weapons, as I understand it. M-LOK has not yet been ruled out for Block III.

KAC is coming out with an MLOK version of the URX 4 rail.

http://soldiersystems.net/2015/04/10/nraam-2015-kac-introduces-m-lok-urx4-handguard/

[breakingtime91]

does anyone have any documentation/real specs to show that Mlok is worth dumping keymod? I feel like this argument is close to the 45 vs 9mm debate in some ways.

[Unobtanium]

does anyone have any documentation/real specs to show that Mlok is worth dumping keymod? I feel like this argument is close to the 45 vs 9mm debate in some ways.

Magpul has made open claims that in vibratory and shock testing KM would always bend the thin edges of the holes things were mounted to. Noone has seen fit to counter their open claims. I also have seen plenty of pictures of accessories ripped through a rail. None of my friends run KM, so I have not seen it in person, but their friends send them pix, etc. It also depends on the rail. The BCM KMR's are flimsy, the rails like KAC's are a lot tougher. All the issues I've personally seen evidence of were KMR's.

However, I cannot get over, aside from all of that, the burning desire NOT to have a rail with what looks like a congo-line of miniature cartoonish dicks parading down the sides of it.
I feel that if the Magpul logo is fair game, so is this.

Yeah, I know, you will never un-see it, now.

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/81/45/06/8145066499d4055eb365052b50fc4217.jpg

[SLG]

As long as the dicks are pointed to the front in a fight, all is good! Its a guide...

[Unobtanium]

As long as the dicks are pointed to the front in a fight, all is good! Its a guide...
:(
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7328/11956063283_cfa09c2069_c.jpg

[SLG]

Thats some bad mojo right there...;-)

[Unobtanium]

Thats some bad mojo right there...;-)

Heckler and...Koch.

[JodyH]

Heckler and...Koch.
Hey, if the bullets will work backwards in the magazines what's the worst that could happen if the key-mod dicks are aimed the wrong way?

[breakingtime91]

First time I have heard of the bcm rail being flimsy

[JM Campbell]

On m4carbine.net this has come up about the bcm KMR, it has been stated that people are installing the keymod accessories backwards and that is the main reason why there has been pull through failures with damage to the rails. Also improper torque value applied to retaining hardware. Mlok is designed to be installed in either direction.

The material the KMR is made from is some light weight stuff and pretty thin compared to the standard materials used in the Mlok rails I have seen.

I own a KMR rail, a ALG Defense keymod and a MI Mlok. I like each for the role it is being used.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[breakingtime91]

Magpul has made open claims that in vibratory and shock testing KM would always bend the thin edges of the holes things were mounted to. Noone has seen fit to counter their open claims. I also have seen plenty of pictures of accessories ripped through a rail. None of my friends run KM, so I have not seen it in person, but their friends send them pix, etc. It also depends on the rail. The BCM KMR's are flimsy, the rails like KAC's are a lot tougher. All the issues I've personally seen evidence of were KMR's.

However, I cannot get over, aside from all of that, the burning desire NOT to have a rail with what looks like a congo-line of miniature cartoonish dicks parading down the sides of it.
I feel that if the Magpul logo is fair game, so is this.

Yeah, I know, you will never un-see it, now.

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/81/45/06/8145066499d4055eb365052b50fc4217.jpg

This was bothering me. OF COURSE magpul would say that. Also are you basing your observation of the bcm rail on personal experience?

[Unobtanium]

Hey, if the bullets will work backwards in the magazines what's the worst that could happen if the key-mod dicks are aimed the wrong way?
Whatever happens, captioning it "Brazzers" will make it even better (worse?)

[Unobtanium]

This was bothering me. OF COURSE magpul would say that. Also are you basing your observation of the bcm rail on personal experience?

No. I wouldn't run a BCM KMR and noone else I know personally does either. They break. Have I seen pictures of others who found out the hard way and their results. Yeah. Was I there/were they my rails? No.

If Magpul is lying, BCM should call them out on it. Hell, BCM will sue inventors of other products just because they are afraid that they themselves might have to pay royalties for infringing patents. They should be ALL OVER Magpul, if Magpul weren't dead right.

[Unobtanium]

On m4carbine.net this has come up about the bcm KMR, it has been stated that people are installing the keymod accessories backwards and that is the main reason why there has been pull through failures with damage to the rails. Also improper torque value applied to retaining hardware. Mlok is designed to be installed in either direction.

The material the KMR is made from is some light weight stuff and pretty thin compared to the standard materials used in the Mlok rails I have seen.

I own a KMR rail, a ALG Defense keymod and a MI Mlok. I like each for the role it is being used.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

That is a big part of it, yes. The other part is that the thin/light material and chamfers simply don't hold up to repeated stresses. As with a bipod, etc.

[SLG]

I have not seen the KMR issues and it seems like a nice forearm, but a good friend has personal experience with them failing as described above.

[DocGKR]

I have a KMR for a lightweight carbine; so far it has held up fine and not broken, but then again I don't play Lego's with my rifles...

[breakingtime91]

I also have a kmr on my rifle, but I only have a foregrip on it with everything else on the top pic rail.

[breakingtime91]

No. I wouldn't run a BCM KMR and noone else I know personally does either. They break. Have I seen pictures of others who found out the hard way and their results. Yeah. Was I there/were they my rails? No.

If Magpul is lying, BCM should call them out on it. Hell, BCM will sue inventors of other products just because they are afraid that they themselves might have to pay royalties for infringing patents. They should be ALL OVER Magpul, if Magpul weren't dead right.

I'm trackin you don't like key mod. I just find it strange that Mlok hasn't caught on like everyone said. Keymod seems to be going strong and I do not see it going anywhere.

[Failure2Stop]

I'm trackin you don't like key mod. I just find it strange that Mlok hasn't caught on like everyone said. Keymod seems to be going strong and I do not see it going anywhere.
Anecdotally, Magpul's MLok line alone has higher sales quantity than all KeyMod combined.

They both have positives and negatives, and nobody is locked to either based on a single purchase.

From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff

[SLG]

They both have positives and negatives, and nobody is locked to either based on a single purchase.


Jack,

None of my actual use guns have keymod or M-lok, and my experience with them is very limited. Can you go into a little more detail on the two halves of your statement above? I've been wanting to go to a light, small diameter forearm, but because of some of the issues I have heard about, I've mostly shelved the project for now. Any extra info would be very helpful.

ETA: I have a Noveske Keymod carbine, that seems very nice, but I have not used it very much at all. I've heard from various sources that they're not very durable either.

[SLG]

I just read the thread from the beginning and may be able to add something to the earlier discussion on barrel life.

I have shot 6 Colt M4 uppers to death. All were military, full auto, 14.5" configurations. Standard chrome-lined barrel, I assume. Each one went 20,000 rds without a meaningful loss of accuracy. That is, they started life at around 2moa, and ended life at about the same. Each upper was shot out in a year or less, but with very little full auto through them. Almost exclusively shot with green tip, but a small amount of other rds were fired as well.

Before the first one was done, we assumed that I'd get 10,000 rds out of it, based on conventional (at the time) wisdom.

[breakingtime91]

Anecdotally, Magpul's MLok line alone has higher sales quantity than all KeyMod combined.

They both have positives and negatives, and nobody is locked to either based on a single purchase.

From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff

intersting. are you talking about their plastic handguards?

[JodyH]

I have a KMR for a lightweight carbine; so far it has held up fine and not broken, but then again I don't play Lego's with my rifles...
I give this post a bump, +1, Like, thumbs up, #nogunlego, and all that other social media bullshit that shows approval.

[breakingtime91]

I'm just really suprised how quickly people jump to bash something as soon as a new flavor comes around.

[Chance]

They break. Have I seen pictures of others who found out the hard way and their results. Yeah.

I would like to see photos of that as well. I have seen John McPhee lament KMR on his Instagram feed, stating something to the effect that you can twist KM bipods off with your bare hand. He's never posted photos, though.


They both have positives and negatives, and nobody is locked to either based on a single purchase.

I'd like to hear an expansion of this too. KM came equipped on my DDM4v11, but I know nothing about them.

[BK14]

Well, guys like Pat Rogers, Pat Macnamara, Frank Proctor, etc are all testing out KMRs, and I haven't heard any negatives from those trainers. Just shot with Mr. Proctor at his performance carbine class last week, he was still running a KMR, as was I and I think one other person. No problems. I have a KAG from BCM mounted, then BUIS and a light off the top rail, so maybe I'm missing something. But I see a solid mounting system of the rail to the upper, a modular system that lets me put a hand stop on easily, and a super light hand guard. I like it.

I will say, my experience with M-Lok hasn't left me pleased. Part of Magpul's claims were that keymod and polymer don't mix (I guess B5 hasn't gotten the memo). Well I mounted two pieces to a new M-Lok SL hand guard this past week, and it sucked at what it was supposed to do. It wouldn't lock down right, then while trying to tighten it, the backers torqued through the sides of the M-Lok slot letting the backer free spin. So, grabbed some pliers and everything is fine and tight now. I just think it's stupid that M-Lok working better with polymer hand guards being a selling point ends with me torquing through M-Lok slots before even getting close to having them tightened down. I do go cave man on stuff though, so maybe it's my fault.

Anywho. I like my KMR and other keymod handguard, seems like plenty of other people who are actually credible do too, and my one experience with M-Lok just pissed me off until I got pliers.

YMMV
- BK

[Unobtanium]

Everyone's selling something. Keep that in mind and salt everything liberally with common sense a d a solid understanding of physics.

[rob_s]

Over and over I hear that Keymod is failing, and over and over people refuse to produce the pictures and the explanations of the failures because:secret-squirrel.

I have handguards with both systems, and I frankly still prefer Picatinny, but the mlok seems to be winning in the "I have friends so cool I can't tell you about them other than to tell you I have friends so cool that I can't tell you about them" camp. Lots of innuendo, references to secret photos, stories from uber-ninjas that are apparently so open-source that they told YOU but so secret you can't tell anyone else, etc.

If you can't produce pictures and explanations of the failures, you shouldn't be citing secret stories as your evidence. It's not that I don't believe you Without them, but I don't believe you.

[LittleLebowski]

Keymod works for me. I suspect M-Lock would as well. Is anyone else making a rail as light as the KMR?

[Unobtanium]

Over and over I hear that Keymod is failing, and over and over people refuse to produce the pictures and the explanations of the failures because:secret-squirrel.

I have handguards with both systems, and I frankly still prefer Picatinny, but the mlok seems to be winning in the "I have friends so cool I can't tell you about them other than to tell you I have friends so cool that I can't tell you about them" camp. Lots of innuendo, references to secret photos, stories from uber-ninjas that are apparently so open-source that they told YOU but so secret you can't tell anyone else, etc.

If you can't produce pictures and explanations of the failures, you shouldn't be citing secret stories as your evidence. It's not that I don't believe you Without them, but I don't believe you.

That's fine. I'm not selling anything. I answered a question. I provided my rationale. I described my rationale. If I had some money to make here, I would buy a KMR and show you. But...I don't.

I have seen this with a TON of products.

Keep in mind how interconnected this community is. I am not affiliated with anyone, so I can say whatever I want. However, not everyone has that "luxury". They may do business with a company selling something they feel negatively about, but won't say/show because hey, they love their whatevers, and are friends with the owner, and so on. I don't have to explain all the ins and outs of it, you get where I'm going. It's not that "secret squirrel". It's just that "Hey bro, as a friend...don't buy one of those, but you didn't hear me say that..." I've had plenty of those tips from people and I suspect you have, too, if you want to be honest about it, while watching them pimp the same thing on their YouTube channel or whatever like it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Kyle Lamb is in bed with Leupold.
LAV with Aimpoint.
Taran Butler with Trijicon.

You will see them pimping every product in the line-ups, no matter how shitty they think it is. This is just a highly visible example-set.

[breakingtime91]

That's fine. I'm not selling anything. I answered a question. I provided my rationale. I described my rationale. If I had some money to make here, I would buy a KMR and show you. But...I don't.

I have seen this with a TON of products.

Keep in mind how interconnected this community is. I am not affiliated with anyone, so I can say whatever I want. However, not everyone has that "luxury". They may do business with a company selling something they feel negatively about, but won't say/show because hey, they love their whatevers, and are friends with the owner, and so on. I don't have to explain all the ins and outs of it, you get where I'm going. It's not that "secret squirrel". It's just that "Hey bro, as a friend...don't buy one of those, but you didn't hear me say that..." I've had plenty of those tips from people and I suspect you have, too, if you want to be honest about it, while watching them pimp the same thing on their YouTube channel or whatever like it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Kyle Lamb is in bed with Leupold.
LAV with Aimpoint.
Taran Butler with Trijicon.

You will see them pimping every product in the line-ups, no matter how shitty they think it is. This is just a highly visible example-set.

can I ask what your affiliation is with the industry and where your getting your information about key mod from?

[Failure2Stop]

Jack,
None of my actual use guns have keymod or M-lok, and my experience with them is very limited. Can you go into a little more detail on the two halves of your statement above? I've been wanting to go to a light, small diameter forearm, but because of some of the issues I have heard about, I've mostly shelved the project for now. Any extra info would be very helpful.


My point about volume of sales is purely anecdotal, I simply do not have access to the info, working off of what I have been told and what seems to be supported by market presence.

Keymod
Pros:
Open source, not restrained by a TDP, which allows a manufacturer to improve upon the mounting method.
Shows better alignment of mounted items, as the attachment nut is conical and tightens into a beveled recess.

Cons:
Open source, not restrained by a TDP, which allows a manufacturer to screw-up the mounting method.
Requires higher than usual toque for a small screw to avoid loosening, but must remain low enough to prevent damage to the nut or handguard.
The attachment nut and mounting slot must be able to withstand significant torque without deforming, which makes both highly sensitive to material and hardening processes.
To reverse an item, the nut recess must first allow it, and the user must loosen and flip the nut.

M-Lok
Pros:
Patented and controlled by Magpul, which ensures that everyone that is making an M-lok accessory that bears the M-Lok logo has to have been approved by them, which keeps everyone at the standard that they want.
Attachment method can bear very high torque, ensuring that accessories won't loosen if mounted correctly.
Attachment hardware can withstand high pull force.
Items are immediately able to be reversed when mounting.

Cons:
Patented and controlled by Magpul, which prevents outside manufacturers from changing the attachment method for a specific purpose.
Attachment hardware can be shifted (without loosening) with lateral leverage.

[Failure2Stop]

intersting. are you talking about their plastic handguards?

The information was in regard to all M-Lok items.

[breakingtime91]

The information was in regard to all M-Lok items.

thanks Jack.

[rob_s]

That's fine. I'm not selling anything. I answered a question. I provided my rationale. I described my rationale. If I had some money to make here, I would buy a KMR and show you. But...I don't.

I have seen this with a TON of products.

Keep in mind how interconnected this community is. I am not affiliated with anyone, so I can say whatever I want. However, not everyone has that "luxury". They may do business with a company selling something they feel negatively about, but won't say/show because hey, they love their whatevers, and are friends with the owner, and so on. I don't have to explain all the ins and outs of it, you get where I'm going. It's not that "secret squirrel". It's just that "Hey bro, as a friend...don't buy one of those, but you didn't hear me say that..." I've had plenty of those tips from people and I suspect you have, too, if you want to be honest about it, while watching them pimp the same thing on their YouTube channel or whatever like it's the best thing since sliced bread.

Kyle Lamb is in bed with Leupold.
LAV with Aimpoint.
Taran Butler with Trijicon.

You will see them pimping every product in the line-ups, no matter how shitty they think it is. This is just a highly visible example-set.

So then, no pics?

[StraitR]

I have a KMR on a Noveske, and a SR15 Mod 2 with URX 4. I'm not a ninja and I don't kick in doors. Not being patronizing, just saying that I'm probably not as hard on my gear as others may be. That said, KM works just fine for me. If either of those two KM rails start falling apart, I suspect I'll change it to something else. If KM stops being supported, I'll start attaching rail sections until the whole thing falls apart. I'm not in love with either rail, but I have what I have, and it works, so I'm not worried about changing anytime soon.

I imagine ML would work just the same, for my purposes, and I would feel the same way.

[Failure2Stop]

I have a KMR on a Noveske, and a SR15 Mod 2 with URX 4. I'm not a ninja and I don't kick in doors. Not being patronizing, just saying that I'm probably not as hard on my gear as others may be. That said, KM works just fine for me. If either of those two KM rails start falling apart, I suspect I'll change it to something else. If KM stops being supported, I'll start attaching rail sections until the whole thing falls apart. I'm not in love with either rail, but I have what I have, and it works, so I'm not worried about changing anytime soon.

I imagine ML would work just the same, for my purposes, and I would feel the same way.

Frankly, most people will never notice a difference if they just pick the one that they think looks the coolest, so long as high quality parts are used.



NOTE: My use of the word "frankly" is not at all condescending, but rather indicates bare honesty on my behalf, with as few words used as necessary.

[StraitR]

Jack, that's my feeling on it as well. It's like there's a disturbance in the force unless it's established that one is superior to the other.

[SLG]

Frankly, most people will never notice a difference if they just pick the one that they think looks the coolest, so long as high quality parts are used.



NOTE: My use of the word "frankly" is not at all condescending, but rather indicates bare honesty on my behalf, with as few words used as necessary.

26/1

:-)

[SLG]

Jack, that's my feeling on it as well. It's like there's a disturbance in the force unless it's established that one is superior to the other.

At least for me, I am interested in buying gear that will hold up. Work guns and work gear get tested to a level beyond the casual user's needs. Given my mostly good experience with highly tested stuff, I prefer to buy personal gear that will pass the test as well. I have no personal knowledge of either system's durability, but when a good buddy in the industry tells me that the KMR has some issues with the alloy, I listen. He may be wrong, but if he's right, then I have avoided buying a potential problem. If other guys I trust, like F2S, think it works, then the "issue" likely won't affect me, if it indeed exists. Not doubting my buddy at all, but changes are often made to a product over time, and what was once true, may no longer be true.

[El Cid]

Keymod works for me. I suspect M-Lock would as well. Is anyone else making a rail as light as the KMR?

The Midwest is not technically lighter (9.3 vs 8.1) but it has 5 QD sockets built into it. The KMR would have to add ounces to mount a QD sling.

https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=1266

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-KMR15-Free-Float-Handguard-p/bcm-kmr-15-556-blk.htm

[StraitR]

At least for me, I am interested in buying gear that will hold up. Work guns and work gear get tested to a level beyond the casual user's needs. Given my mostly good experience with highly tested stuff, I prefer to buy personal gear that will pass the test as well. I have no personal knowledge of either system's durability, but when a good buddy in the industry tells me that the KMR has some issues with the alloy, I listen. He may be wrong, but if he's right, then I have avoided buying a potential problem. If other guys I trust, like F2S, think it works, then the "issue" likely won't affect me, if it indeed exists. Not doubting my buddy at all, but changes are often made to a product over time, and what was once true, may no longer be true.



SLG, I'm not doubting the word of your friend, and he very well may have found the KMR alloy too lightweight for his application. Owning both a KMR and URX4, the KMR certainly feels fragile in comparison, so if anything, it's a KMR issue and not a KM issue. That sounds a bit defensive of KM, but see my prior post about indifference based on my needs.

That said, I was referencing the casual user, and I used myself as an example. I don't require a "work gun", outside of my daily CCW G19, which has been vetted. My daily work equipment is an iPhone, a Macbook Pro, and a Tumi briefcase, all of which have been selected for the same reason, they hold up. My point is, I also value reliable kit and the durability of my work tools is equally important, we just do different kinds of work. I think we can both agree, my needs are not your needs, and vice versa. The vast majority of end users fall into the casual user category. What I was poking fun at, is the constant go around about the superiority of this system over that, when few if any will subject said equipment to treatment that will push it's durability to failure.

I wholly subscribe to buy once cry once, which is why the safe is filled with the likes of KAC, Noveske, BCM, Wilson, HK, and Glock etc etc. I doubt there are many on this board who feel otherwise. And to be honest, if I needed a rifle for work, I'm not convinced it would utilize either KM or ML.

This has been a pretty good thread. I'm still waiting to see some failure pictures. There are some of a KMR on another board, can't remember which, but it was established by the end user that he installed the attachment backwards. If anything, "not" being able to install something in a way that invites failure is definite plus for ML. Still, attention to detail would have prevented that failure.

[Default.mp3]

As posted in another thread:


A consideration if you plan on using a foregrip with KeyMod as a brace or other stressed part:
http://i.imgbox.com/K72eXKBV.png (http://imgbox.com/K72eXKBV)


Roland obviously isn't his real name, but it is the same guy that the Roland Special was named after; the guy's currently in an SMU, FWIW.

I've also heard first hand of issues with Keymod mounted bipods being pushed out of place (occurred at a John McPhee precision course of some sort, I believe with a BCM KMR). Personally, I've heard enough issues with KM to make me prefer M-LOK, all things being equal, but it's not something I will worry about, and things will never be equal between a Keymod rail and an M-LOK rail (Keymod will almost always be lighter). Right now, the only things I mount in the Keymod sections is a QD sling stud on my NSR (my PWS upper has built-in QD studs in the Keymod holes) and lights (which I can easily switch to mounting off the top Picatinny using the Unity Tactical FUSION Hub or perhaps their new Monkey Bar); in the .308 I plan on building, I'm willing to capitalize the 0.5 oz difference between Keymod and M-LOK rails and go with Keymod anyway.

[breakingtime91]

As posted in another thread:



I've also heard first hand of issues with Keymod mounted bipods being pushed out of place (occurred at a John McPhee precision course of some sort, I believe with a BCM KMR). Personally, I've heard enough issues with KM to make me prefer M-LOK, all things being equal, but it's not something I will worry about, and things will never be equal between a Keymod rail and an M-LOK rail (Keymod will almost always be lighter). Right now, the only things I mount in the Keymod sections is a QD sling stud on my NSR (my PWS upper has built-in QD studs in the Keymod holes) and lights (which I can easily switch to mounting off the top Picatinny using the Unity Tactical FUSION Hub or perhaps their new Monkey Bar); in the .308 I plan on building, I'm willing to capitalize the 0.5 oz difference between Keymod and M-LOK rails and go with Keymod anyway.

Unless I see pictures and information directly from people there, I consider most of this propaganda :cool:

[Unobtanium]

So then, no pics?

Nope. No worries whether you buy product xyz or not either.

[StraitR]

Chalk up another good reason not to work out. Again, everyone's needs are different. If you're hardcore, buy hardcore stuff. The only balls to four raids I go on are in the kitchen, so I should be pretty safe with KM.

[John Hearne]

So... If Keymod rails have this alleged problem, do M-Lok's avoid it or is it inherent in the ultra-light rails?

[JSGlock34]

I found this an intriguing development for MLOK...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x27g4TNuvnM

[Luke]

Now that is sick!^^ and there for end for the AR's is sick too!! I'm supposed to like keymod though, my Daniel has it :( so I love it.

[Default.mp3]

Keymod works for me. I suspect M-Lock would as well. Is anyone else making a rail as light as the KMR?
A slight necro, but I figured you might be interested in the new Midwest Industries rails that come pretty close to weight, albeit they cheat it by taking off the top Picatinny rail:
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/images/products/g3lwmseries.jpg

Personally, I've been looking to replace my NSR on my 14.5" with a KMR, but those seem to be OOS everywhere, so I may end up with a Geissele, one of these new Midwest rails, or maybe even the Wedge Lock.

[StraitR]

The biggest issue I see with the MI rail is that they're going super light (read thin) to compete with the KMR coupled with clamping the rail at the bottom, which has shown to be problematic in some past designs. Instead of trying to describe the problem with this design, go to 3:40 in this video...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AjlvIsCFp0

[davisj]

KMR Alloy Shortage = Something New from BCM

For the last 6-7 weeks I've been watching the BCM site for a complete upper (the BCM-URG-MID-16-BFH-ELW-KMR13) to come back in stock. I thought maybe the barrel was the reason for the delay but after seeing it was in stock I emailed BCM to see if they could provide an estimate on when the URG might be in stock. Below is the reply I received today:

"We are grateful for the overwhelming demand for the BCM® KMR and regret that we have not been able to keep up with this demand. The unique and proprietary alloy, with which we own 100% of domestic distribution, is in very short supply and has been the sole reason for sporadic inventory. Recent advancements from the BCM® Product Development Team have enabled the imminent release of several new BCMGUNFIGHTER™ offerings, including additional alloy options for the highly coveted BCM® KMR. This will enable us to raise KMR inventory levels quite a bit over the next 4 months. We are anticipating this inventory situation will be resolved by the end of this year.

It is our intent to close out 2015 with several exciting new products we are confident will exude the same quality BCM® customers have come to rely on, offered at more competitive prices. Thank you for your continued support and loyalty through often chaotic times. Please stay tuned to our Newsletter and social media pages for upcoming product announcements."

info@bravocompanyusa.com
Bravo Company USA
www.BravoCompanyUSA.com
www.BravoCompanyMFG.com

While I'd like the upper sooner rather than later the prospects of KMRs made with "additional alloy options" is intriguing. Hopefully there isn't much variance from the current weight.

Now, let the conspiracy theories and rampant speculation begin.

[Luke]

Wonder what this will do to the weight?

[davisj]

Weight only increases by 2.2 ounces on the 13.4" KMR Alpha rail. I can live with that. Thickness appears to be the same as the original. Cost is $80 less too!

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-KMR-ALPHA-13-KeyMod-Free-Float-Handguard-p/bcm-kmr-a13-556-blk.htm

Looks like the 15" Alpha is in stock now for those interested in that length.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-KMR-ALPHA-15-KeyMod-Free-Float-Handguard-p/bcm-kmr-a15-556-blk.htm

[JSGlock34]

Interesting. I wonder if this is holding up the rollout of BCM's .300 Blackout models.

[Default.mp3]

A bit of a necro, but I figured this might be of interest, even if it is from a source that has every reason to be biased:


OK...I've tried to stay out of this one, but I need to address some things that could use some clarification.

M-LOK and Keymod both repeat to <1MOA. M-LOK you just bias the accessory to one side and forward before tightening. Keymod can vary with torque values on return to zero or with slot damage.

The conical seating surface without other design features in application( that are not present in KeyMod) are an engineering NO-NO.

M-LOK doesn't NEED tighter torques, in fact, in poly it's 15in/lbs, but it can accept higher torques and it is not as narrow of a range. It's easy to hit an acceptable torque. KeyMod flirts between too loose to hold and causing mounting surface damage.

The wear on KeyMod surfaces can occur simply from retightening accessories because they keep coming loose from creep/compression of the conical seating surface and/or the nut. See engineering NO-NOs above. Then the slot is all buggered out.

Stronger pullout...Many KeyMod metal rails allow accessory pullout at forces significantly less (like almost half) than what it even requires to pull M-LOK out of polymer. M-LOK has a larger seating surface (and it's flat so when you add the force vectors KeyMods seating surfaces are really small), thicker mounting surface, stronger nuts, larger fasteners, and none of the conical seating surface problems.

Yes, it doesn't take much in many cases to pull bipods out of keymod, or even vert grips with a semi concerted effort, and anything that takes a good knock or drop can come loose. M-LOK Bipod adapters can take a bipod load that exceeds anything even remotely sensible, as in barrel touching rail on the test guns. We use them in precision classes all the time, and we have a Manfrotto tripod head mount that supports the entire rifle in a semi-cantilevered situation with ease.

Also...M-LOK is as much just the slots and lug spacing as anything. An update of the MOE slots and adaptation of a commercial Bosch type T-Nut used in industrial applications for the current backside solution. It's open to QD attachment systems as long as it works universally within the system, and you'll see more of those soon, including ones that deal with adjusting to tolerancing for lateral stability and return to zero with even greater fidelity than the 1 MOA current standard.

If anyone is happy with keymod, great. I'm not trying to dictate what a consumer should be pleased with. I just jumped in to correct some things so that information is accurate. If you go to any of the M-LOK products on our web site and look under "related info" there are two docs that lay out the what's and why's of M-LOK pretty well.Source: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?178699-Magpul-MLOK-vs-Keymod&p=2244669#post2244669

[StraitR]

It amazes me how many people simply refuse to choose one or the other and drive on. The derp on M4C and Arfcom will not cease until a winner has been declared.

[breakingtime91]

It amazes me how many people simply refuse to choose one or the other and drive on. The derp on M4C and Arfcom will not cease until a winner has been declared.

obviously its the most important factor when considering marksmanship with a carbine..

[LittleLebowski]

I'll take either or. I personally know people that work for BCM and Magpul companies, I respect them all. To my uneducated eye, the MLOK design looks better but if a Keymod rail is $20 cheaper or if BCM makes it over a lesser manufacturer, I'll go Keymod, I won't die in the streets, and I'll be fine.

[breakingtime91]

I'll take either or. I personally know people that work for BCM and Magpul companies, I respect them all. To my uneducated eye, the MLOK design looks better but if a Keymod rail is $20 cheaper or if BCM makes it over a lesser manufacturer, I'll go Keymod, I won't die in the streets, and I'll be fine.

yup, completely agree. I care wau more about the trigger then anything else now. Milspec=good to go but I really like a nice clean trigger

[Unobtanium]

All arguments about dimensional stability aside, I like thay mlok is QD. I don't think key mod offers qd accessories.

[Jay Cunningham]

My current opinion is that KeyMod and MLOK are both ok for civilian and *probably* LEO patrol rifle use, but I can't imagine them replacing picatinny rails in a .mil environment.

Let me qualify that by saying that I don't pretend to know what the military or law enforcement needs - however the M1913 system has been proven rugged, reliable, and repeatable.

My guns will never be neglected nor terribly abused, and either of the two novelty mounting systems will work just fine for me. That said, it wouldn't surprise me if KeyMod went the way of 6.8mm in a few years.

[Unobtanium]

My current opinion is that KeyMod and MLOK are both ok for civilian and *probably* LEO patrol rifle use, but I can't imagine them replacing picatinny rails in a .mil environment.

Let me qualify that by saying that I don't pretend to know what the military or law enforcement needs - however the M1913 system has been proven rugged, reliable, and repeatable.

My guns will never be neglected nor terribly abused, and either of the two novelty mounting systems will work just fine for me. That said, it wouldn't surprise me if KeyMod went the way of 6.8mm in a few years.

Interestingly, MLOK is already replacing 1913 in military environments.

[breakingtime91]

Interestingly, MLOK is already replacing 1913 in military environments.

like where?

[Unobtanium]

like where?

Like Canada.
http://calibremag.ca/colt-canada-mrr-the-modular-railed-rifle/

[breakingtime91]

Like Canada.
http://calibremag.ca/colt-canada-mrr-the-modular-railed-rifle/

how many have been used in the field, do you know?

[Unobtanium]

how many have been used in the field, do you know?
I do not, nor do I know the T&E process or procedure.

[breakingtime91]

I do not, nor do I know the T&E process or procedure.

trackin. I think as long as blue loctite is used I can not imagine that a keymod rail or mlok wouldn't stand up to the typical deployment.

[Unobtanium]

trackin. I think as long as blue loctite is used I can not imagine that a keymod rail or mlok wouldn't stand up to the typical deployment.

I have friends who have trashed LMT MRP uppers. I dunno...

The main issue with the KM is that it's not "person proof" AT ALL. Same as with LaRue mounts. They are constantly getting fucked up. Someone doesn't tighten the bottom screws first fully, or someone adjusts it where it's not going to hold zero the first time it get's bumped, etc. Same thing happens with KM. Someone REALLY torques down on it, and it bends the tiny chamfer in the holes of the rail surface. Then they torque it more because it gets loose. So on. Or they don't loctite it. Or they don't tighten it enough. Or...

With MLOK, you just put it on there, and torque it down. yes, it does have a torque spec, I am aware, but so does everything else. It's just not nearly as "critical" as with KM by a long shot. It's also much more resistant to tear/pull-through. I have seen plenty of pictures of KM ripped through rails. Granted, they were BCM's rails and not a KAC or something, but show me a SINGLE PHOTO of a butchered MLOK attachment/rail.

MLOK isn't idiot proof, but it's a darn sight moreso than KM.

[rob_s]

Like Canada.
http://calibremag.ca/colt-canada-mrr-the-modular-railed-rifle/

There's a lot of "upcoming" language in that article. Have any actually been fielded? It also mentions the gun being shown at SHOT 2016 which has come and gone. Anyone that went remember seeing one?

[Unobtanium]

There's a lot of "upcoming" language in that article. Have any actually been fielded? It also mentions the gun being shown at SHOT 2016 which has come and gone. Anyone that went remember seeing one?

Well, I don't have any insider info into this one, so I can only go off of the same things you can read, but Diemaco features it on their site, so I presume it's coming "to market", as it were:

http://www.coltcanada.com/mrr.html

[Maple Syrup Actual]

There's a lot of "upcoming" language in that article. Have any actually been fielded? It also mentions the gun being shown at SHOT 2016 which has come and gone. Anyone that went remember seeing one?

They were in the Colt booth and on Monday they saw about 10,000 rounds at the military expo. Not only have I seen one...thousands of people have seen a bunch of them. And the guy who wrote that article, who I know well, has put a couple of thousand rounds through one of their suppressed 300blk versions...I have no idea how much through the .223s.


Colt Canada just doesn't really have much interest in the civilian market so whether you'll see any around is doubtful. I have one of their IURs here and A) I doubt there are any in the US at all, and B) they were "upcoming" for a long time.

I don't have time right now to find pics of the Colt booth but they had a wall of MRRs there.


I don't personally know who the MRRs were intended to please but I know that Colt Canada had no interest in a Keymod version from anyone. They went with Mlok because "that's all anyone wanted". They're very simple like that.

[rob_s]

They were in the Colt booth and on Monday they saw about 10,000 rounds at the military expo. Not only have I seen one...thousands of people have seen a bunch of them. And the guy who wrote that article, who I know well, has put a couple of thousand rounds through one of their suppressed 300blk versions...I have no idea how much through the .223s.


Colt Canada just doesn't really have much interest in the civilian market so whether you'll see any around is doubtful. I have one of their IURs here and A) I doubt there are any in the US at all, and B) they were "upcoming" for a long time.

I don't have time right now to find pics of the Colt booth but they had a wall of MRRs there.


I don't personally know who the MRRs were intended to please but I know that Colt Canada had no interest in a Keymod version from anyone. They went with Mlok because "that's all anyone wanted". They're very simple like that.

So I guess that still leaves the question, have they been issued or not?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I have no idea and since Colt Canada is not particularly interested in commercial sales we might not know for months even after they get issued. It's normal for them to work in the dark.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[rob_s]

I guess my point is this, not knowing much about military side, Canadian especially...

The SCAR is often touted as an "issue item", which I suppose it is, but it isn't exactly widely issued as most Soldiers and Marines still seem to be getting the standard AR-pattern guns. if this MLOK version is like that, then it's somewhat irrelevent, I think, as it's sort of not exactly issued which means it isn't really going to change the standard anytime soon. Certainly not stateside.

I think the original point TK was trying to make is that while MLOK and Keymod are tying to fight over Betamax/VHS status, the biggest customer, the US military, is still using 8mm film so the debate is kind of pointless outside of the enthusiast market. Couple that with the fact that there isn't really anything "wrong" with picatinny, and the "change-to-change" driver that seems to have generated these two new systems, and it becomes even less relevant.

[orionz06]

http://i.imgur.com/25eLRHh.jpg


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[David S.]

mmmmm.... Gadget.




Oh yeah, I'm digging that Colt MRR 14.5.

[HCM]

Giving this a bump, apparently the DOD is switching rails on the recently selected HK CSASS from HK's reverse keymod to a Geisselle MLOK rail.

http://soldiersystems.net/2016/09/27/mdm-csass-goes-m-lok/?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed

10876

[TiroFijo]

Good move... :)

[helothar]

is that why I can't find a 13" mk8 anywhere?

[texasaggie2005]

is that why I can't find a 13" mk8 anywhere?

http://www.primaryarms.com/geissele-13-super-modular-rail-mk8-mlok-black/p/05-285b/

[El Cid]

With regard to the Canadian rifles. Anyone see this?

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/09/29/colt-canada-sas-iur-uppers-sold-public/

[Default.mp3]

A bit of a necro, but it appears that BCM has finally given in on the M-LOK thing:


We wanted to expand the KMR handguard line last year, but industry demands (from the election) made it so we were overrun with backorders. As such we couldn't shut down machines to prototype or run new SKUs if the KMR demands exceed supply. We expect 2017 to return back to normal volumes. A KMR version in Mlok and Picatinny should be out in late 2017. (along with some other cool new parts)

Thank you very much for your interest in BCM products!Source: https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_138/280792_Why-won-t-BCM-make-an-MLOK-KMR-.html#i3093292

[SLG]

A bit of a necro, but it appears that BCM has finally given in on the M-LOK thing:

Source: https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_138/280792_Why-won-t-BCM-make-an-MLOK-KMR-.html#i3093292

I'm glad they announced that. I talked to Paul last week and they have some exciting stuff coming out in Mlok that I'm looking forward to seeing.

[LittleLebowski]

Gonna be an MLOK world.

[orionz06]

It's particularly cool to see a company so significantly into Keymod also offer it. Their rails are pretty killer as it is but with M-Lok now it's gonna be hard to ignore the other options out there. 2017 is looking up in the gun world.

[Whiskey_Bravo]

I have a Centurion Arms quad rail on my go to rifle. I previously owned BCM KMRs. I was planning on buying a Centurion CMR M-Lok to swap out on my rifle. If BCM was to release a Rail with continuous pic rails at 9 and 12 o'clock and M-Lok everywhere else...I would be a VERY happy camper

[Poconnor]

Did anyone go to the colt Canada website? Checkout the 16" 7.52 with Mlok rail?

[Soggy]

Did anyone go to the colt Canada website? Checkout the 16" 7.52 with Mlok rail?

Not till you mentioned it. They have a lot of interesting items on there. Thanks for the tip.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

CC does nice stuff. The MRRs are really nice rifles. Accuracy is exceptional (although to be honest it's a free-floated AR with a Colt Canada barrel...if they weren't extremely accurate, what planet would we be on?)

I have not shot the 7.62 yet but I imagine it's well-built. Their other stuff has been very good. There were some contract overrun SAS guns (or uppers, I forget now) recently that were pretty cool. My IUR definitely turned out to be a keeper.

[Soggy]

CC does nice stuff. The MRRs are really nice rifles. Accuracy is exceptional (although to be honest it's a free-floated AR with a Colt Canada barrel...if they weren't extremely accurate, what planet would we be on?)

I have not shot the 7.62 yet but I imagine it's well-built. Their other stuff has been very good. There were some contract overrun SAS guns (or uppers, I forget now) recently that were pretty cool. My IUR definitely turned out to be a keeper.

Pardon the thread drift, but does anyone know if it is possible to get Canadian Colts in the US?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

It's technically possible to get CC barrels, but I'm not sure about whole guns.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[JSGlock34]

It's technically possible to get CC barrels, but I'm not sure about whole guns.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

I may have this wrong, but I seem to recall earlier KAC SR-15s used CC barrels. I'm sure one of the KAC guys on the board can set me straight if this is in error.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Yeah, that's what I was referring to. Technically, CC barrels were available, but they kept wrapping SR15s around them which drove the price up somewhat.

I think KAC has stopped using them but I'm not sure.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[StraitR]

A bit of a necro, but it appears that BCM has finally given in on the M-LOK thing:

Source: https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_138/280792_Why-won-t-BCM-make-an-MLOK-KMR-.html#i3093292


I almost jumped the Keymod ship last year thinking this could be coming, but thought BCM would stay the course. Dammit. Without the KMR being Keymod only, Keymod is doomed. Thanks BCM. My eventual replacement rails will be KAC and Geissele.

[John Hearne]

I almost jumped the Keymod ship last year thinking this could be coming, but thought BCM would stay the course. Dammit. Without the KMR being Keymod only, Keymod is doomed. Thanks BCM. My eventual replacement rails will be KAC and Geissele.

I bought six Keymod uppers for work and my AR pistol sports one. For the accessories that are mounted and the light weight, I won't be replacing any of them with Keymod. Will I buy keymod in the future? Probably not. Anything new will be M-Lok as assimilation is inevitable.

The only place where I was even thinking about a swap was my current duty upper. I've had it since 07/08 and it has Troy's non-standard VTAC rail. I'm pretty much talked out of a swap because everything I need is on there (thanks to Unity direct mount VFG) already and I don't gain anything but the ability to add more crap to the rifle that hasn't been necessary for 10 years.

[Default.mp3]

Looks like M-LOK wins an important battle: http://soldiersystems.net/2017/03/31/ussocom-selects-m-lok-for-weapon-programs/

Some interesting data comparing M-LOK to 1913:

Failure load testing demonstrated that M-LOKTM systems support the highest load of all modular rail systems tested. In fact, the test equipment used to interface with 1913 accessory rails secured with the respective modular rail system across testing repeatedly failed prior to failure of the M-LOKTM attachment system. Even so, testing of the M-LOKTM systems failed at loads as high as over three times the maximum failure load of some other modular rail systems.

[Unobtanium]

Looks like M-LOK wins an important battle: http://soldiersystems.net/2017/03/31/ussocom-selects-m-lok-for-weapon-programs/

Some interesting data comparing M-LOK to 1913:

Everyone with any brains who has held a KM and a MLOK system knew this would be the case. BCM jumped ship probably as soon as they found out they would be putting them head to head in a test that the internet warriors would FINALLY accept "as gospel" and that results would be public. All about them sales and reading the market.

[Default.mp3]

The Crane test results are in the open now: http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/05/details-on-the-ussocom-sponsored-keymod-vs-m-lok-test-conducted-at-nswc-crane/

Some interesting pictures, too, if you don't like reading.

[Jay Cunningham]

The Crane test results are in the open now: http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/05/details-on-the-ussocom-sponsored-keymod-vs-m-lok-test-conducted-at-nswc-crane/

Some interesting pictures, too, if you don't like reading.

Ain't no one got time fo dat.

[orionz06]

Ain't no one got time fo dat.

TL;DR Version: MLOK > shelves

[StraitR]

The Crane test results are in the open now: http://soldiersystems.net/2017/05/05/details-on-the-ussocom-sponsored-keymod-vs-m-lok-test-conducted-at-nswc-crane/

Some interesting pictures, too, if you don't like reading.

The day before I post my KAC SR-15 Mod2 with KM rail for sale, they release this.

16313

[Trajan]

I'm amazed the consumer market cares so much about this. How many things are you attaching to your hand guard? Top rail is still 1913, so a vfg/hand stop and a sling? A light if you're still using a FSP.

And lets be real, no one is hard using anything at your carbine class.

I personally own neither, but Keymod has been way easier to install things on from my experience.

[bravo7]

Well then you're doing it wrong.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm amazed the consumer market cares so much about this. How many things are you attaching to your hand guard? Top rail is still 1913, so a vfg/hand stop and a sling? A light if you're still using a FSP.

And lets be real, no one is hard using anything at your carbine class.

I personally own neither, but Keymod has been way easier to install things on from my experience.

I've seen stuff broken off of rails at classes.

[orionz06]

I'm amazed the consumer market cares so much about this. How many things are you attaching to your hand guard? Top rail is still 1913, so a vfg/hand stop and a sling? A light if you're still using a FSP.


All we worry about it potential and extremes. When looking at a brand new rail for $250 one can get the same thing from most any companies. Why choose the one with the least potential?

[Trajan]

All we worry about it potential and extremes. When looking at a brand new rail for $250 one can get the same thing from most any companies. Why choose the one with the least potential?

The real question is: Why is someone paying $250 for a rail? You're not attaching much. If I had a timmy spell and wanted to build a new AR, I'd probably use one of those ALG tubes.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. The gun sitting in your safe doing nothing won't notice a difference.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. The gun sitting in your safe doing nothing won't notice a difference.

And for those of us who do gun stuff for a living, does it still make no difference? Or are we all just taking as a given that everyone's AR is for fantasy fulfillment?


Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[Trajan]

And for those of us who do gun stuff for a living, does it still make no difference? Or are we all just taking as a given that everyone's AR is for fantasy fulfillment?


Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

Usually the guys who do it for a living are issued a rifle, so it doesn't matter.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Unless, of course, either

a) you don't fall under "usually" (I don't, for example) or

b) the people doing the issuing are influenced by this kind of testing, which, as someone who's job used to be getting organizational sales on the basis of arguments such as longevity-per-dollar, I find to actually matter quite a bit.



I agree that for you it probably doesn't matter, but not everyone is in your situation.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[Jay Cunningham]

If your feelings on this topic are along the lines of HURR DURR LARPERS DONT NEED NO CARBINE WHY DOES ANYBODY CARE NOBODY SHOULD CARE then keep your opinion to yourself - since this is a discussion forum about guns and shooting and people are clearly interested in the topic.

Alternately, the domain rights for everybodys_stupid_but_me.com are available.

[LittleLebowski]

Send all KMR rails to me for disposal, PM me for shipping address.

[StraitR]

And people say mods here are shit™. Take that naysayers.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I can't believe I was so drunk last night that I spelled it "who's".

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk

[rob_s]

If your feelings on this topic are along the lines of HURR DURR LARPERS DONT NEED NO CARBINE WHY DOES ANYBODY CARE NOBODY SHOULD CARE then keep your opinion to yourself - since this is a discussion forum about guns and shooting and people are clearly interested in the topic.

Alternately, the domain rights for everybodys_stupid_but_me.com are available.

Noted.

However...

Use case should certainly be part of any discussion of guns and accessories. The question from these kinds of tests that people should be asking themselves is "does it matter TO ME?" not just the theoretical "better" from a government test. If Mlok goes up to 11, but your use only goes up to 5, and all the products in the test go up to 6, then it really doesn't matter which one you choose.

There's a parallel between this and the Stoic Ventures thread regarding training. If it doesn't matter that someone was employed by the government to train someone, then it shouldn't matter what the government decides is "best".

The test is interesting nonetheless, but hopefully we aren't reducing these discussions down to only talking about a very narrowly defined band.

[Jay Cunningham]

Noted.

However...

Use case should certainly be part of any discussion of guns and accessories.


Yes, it should be.

However...

I know that you know the difference between discussing "use case" and bitching.

And you know that I know that you know.



Whew I'm ready to towel off now.

[Beat Trash]

Usually the guys who do it for a living are issued a rifle, so it doesn't matter.

Not always...

And the "Pool Guns" are crap, when available...

[bravo7]

That's how ridiculous this thread is getting.....paralleling stoic fantasyventures to a test on mounting platforms.

[Jay Cunningham]

Please leave the moderation to site staff. If anyone feels strongly that a post requires moderation, use the report post feature. Staff will carefully consider your report.

[RJ]

And people say mods here are the shit[emoji769]. Take that naysayers.

FIFY

[45dotACP]

Not gonna lie, my AR just has a regular Nordic free float tube. My intermittent rifle match that I play around in doesn't require much from me.

For guys shooting real bad dudes in the face, I suspect options to mount a light, BUIS etc...would be useful. Keymod and MLOK are way lighter than the full length quad rail I installed on a friend's gun.

Jeebus that was a heavy gun, but he wanted it.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Paul D]

Kind of curious. Seems like even the accessories for the Keymod is more expensive. Take Midwest Industries which makes accessories for both: the Keymod 5 slot rail is a $1 more than the MLok one.

Keymod 5 slot aluminum rail (https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/MI-KeyMod-Rail-2-1-inch-length-p/mi-ssk-r2.1.htm) vs MLok 5 slot aluminium rail. (https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/product-p/mi-5mr.htm)

I have a Keymod BCM rifle and I have noticed that getting parts for it require some searching.

[Unobtanium]

This thread reminds me of all the people trying to justify a DMPS or Bushmaster. You ain't goin to war! Screw spending more.

[Jay Cunningham]

ENOUGH with the incessant bitching. How much more clear do I need to make myself?

[rob_s]

This thread is 2.5 years old. I point that out to say that really both systems are still in their infancy. It does appear that Mlok will now likely be the VHS to Keymod's Betamax. Better is better, and by all accounts the latest rounds of testing show Mlok to be better in all regards, whether one *needs* that better or not. One good argument for selling off keymod rails now and switching to Mlok might be that keymod could fully go the way of Betamax and finding parts later may get more difficult. Not so much an issue if you have just one gun, but if you plan on having more than one having a common system is not a bad thing.

The most interesting thing to come out of the Brazilian handguard wars, to me, is that BCM is evidently planning on offering a quad-rail version of the KMR, with QD sockets front and rear.

[Unobtanium]

This thread is 2.5 years old. I point that out to say that really both systems are still in their infancy. It does appear that Mlok will now likely be the VHS to Keymod's Betamax. Better is better, and by all accounts the latest rounds of testing show Mlok to be better in all regards, whether one *needs* that better or not. One good argument for selling off keymod rails now and switching to Mlok might be that keymod could fully go the way of Betamax and finding parts later may get more difficult. Not so much an issue if you have just one gun, but if you plan on having more than one having a common system is not a bad thing.

The most interesting thing to come out of the Brazilian handguard wars, to me, is that BCM is evidently planning on offering a quad-rail version of the KMR, with QD sockets front and rear.

With BCM offering MLOK now, I think the writing is on the wall for Keymod. Kincel is still with BCM, correct?

Basically, if you have KM, I understand the financial and maybe emotional attachment, but if you have neither, why would you buy KM? I can't see a selling point what-so-ever to it.

[rob_s]

With BCM offering MLOK now, I think the writing is on the wall for Keymod. Kincel is still with BCM, correct?

Basically, if you have KM, I understand the financial and maybe emotional attachment, but if you have neither, why would you buy KM? I can't see a selling point what-so-ever to it.

I agree. This pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of keymod now, regardless of why, the market will kill it.

The only question left, for those that care, is whether to sell off the keymod now while some folks are still in denial, or wait a few more years until it has zero value. I have a few Brazilian handguards (Vtacs) that are pre-Mlok/keymod and I practically can't give them away. Not because anything is wrong with them, but because the market says they are bad and they aren't the new hotness anymore.

[Unobtanium]

I agree. This pretty much puts the nail in the coffin of keymod now, regardless of why, the market will kill it.

The only question left, for those that care, is whether to sell off the keymod now while some folks are still in denial, or wait a few more years until it has zero value. I have a few Brazilian handguards (Vtacs) that are pre-Mlok/keymod and I practically can't give them away. Not because anything is wrong with them, but because the market says they are bad and they aren't the new hotness anymore.

Back when the VLTOR monolithic Noveske guns were popular, I bought one. I sold it for $1200 less than I paid a few years later. Things that the industry moves on from just don't seem to hold value, so what I think will happen is that people who have good, solid, reliable MLOK guns will keep them, and if they ever break, BCM will honor the warranty and the customers will ask for MLOK replacements. That's just my guess. The cheaper guns? Next gun panic they can move for what they were bought for, at least, at gunshows. That's what I told my Dad to do with his A2 uppered Colt and an Olympic Arms, and a few SKS's that he didn't want. I told him to wait for the next panic. He did, and he got what he paid + some out of them, and whistled all the way home.

[LittleLebowski]

With BCM offering MLOK now, I think the writing is on the wall for Keymod. Kincel is still with BCM, correct?

Basically, if you have KM, I understand the financial and maybe emotional attachment, but if you have neither, why would you buy KM? I can't see a selling point what-so-ever to it.

Guys doing ultralight weight builds often use KMRs.

[Unobtanium]

Guys doing ultralight weight builds often use KMRs.

This is true, and when it's offered in MLOK, it will be stronger and still weigh the same.

[rob_s]

Back when the VLTOR monolithic Noveske guns were popular, I bought one. I sold it for $1200 less than I paid a few years later. Things that the industry moves on from just don't seem to hold value, so what I think will happen is that people who have good, solid, reliable MLOK guns will keep them, and if they ever break, BCM will honor the warranty and the customers will ask for MLOK replacements. That's just my guess. The cheaper guns? Next gun panic they can move for what they were bought for, at least, at gunshows. That's what I told my Dad to do with his A2 uppered Colt and an Olympic Arms, and a few SKS's that he didn't want. I told him to wait for the next panic. He did, and he got what he paid + some out of them, and whistled all the way home.

I have a ban-era A2 Bushmaster Dissipator HBAR sitting in my safe. Imagine how hard that is to get rid of...

[orionz06]

I don't know that the Keymod owners are gonna take a bath on their rails, they'll just be a little harder to sell. Most folks aren't attaching things to the sides anyway to much of that is all moot. Given the choice the answer always was MLOK unless you wanted a specific rail and those rails were desirable and will still be for a few years.


Like Rob I have a few of the Troy TRX Extreme rails. With the continuous 12:00 and still available sling attachments I can't find a reason to ditch it. While they're obsolete in one sense I can't think if anything I want that I can't get.

[JHC]

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. The gun sitting in your safe doing nothing won't notice a difference.

Ha! He's talking to me alright. That's pretty much what my Troy railed N4 Recce does between deer seasons. :D

[breakingtime91]

I have two keymod rails, neither of which I plan on getting rid of. With that said, I don't attach anything to my rail besides a light at 12 o clock and back up irons. Other than that I have the bcm grip inserts that plug into the keymod holes. So for me, it really doesn't matter but I probably would buy mlok if I get interested in another upper

[Unobtanium]

I have a ban-era A2 Bushmaster Dissipator HBAR sitting in my safe. Imagine how hard that is to get rid of...

My Dad sold his Colt HBAR 6601 ban-era gun with no problems at all during Newtown. It's disgusting to say this, but there will be a time when you can sell it for a pretty penny, I'm sure. Always is.

[OlongJohnson]

The M4C thread on BCM MLOK rails is heating up.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?193899-BCM-KMR-M-LOK-late-2017/page40

Looks like there are review samples in the wild headed to a YouTube channel near you.

Product listings on the site, and you can sign up for in-stock emails when they finally hit.

https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-MMR-M-LOK-MLOK-Handguard-s/227.htm

Made of 6061, will be a few ounces heavier than KMR. Supposed to be happening in October.

[JSGlock34]

BCM's MLOK (MCMR) rails are in stock and available for order.

BCM MCMR MLOK (https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-MCMR-M-LOK-MLOK-Handguard-s/227.htm)

[JSGlock34]

Swapped out a KMR for a MCMR hand guard on my SBR. Easy install; rezero'd today.

https://i.imgur.com/HPDfweC.jpg

[MSparks909]

Swapped out a KMR for a MCMR hand guard on my SBR. Easy install; rezero'd today.

https://i.imgur.com/HPDfweC.jpg

Not knocking your decision at all but what did you gain by swapping out the handguard? Besides aesthetics? Just curious.

[JSGlock34]

It was my only Keymod upper and I have other MLOK stuff, so I just decided to standardize around that. I already sold the Keymod handguard, so it wasn't a great expense to switch. To your point, shoots the same.

[t1tan]

It was my only Keymod upper and I have other MLOK stuff, so I just decided to standardize around that. I already sold the Keymod handguard, so it wasn't a great expense to switch. To your point, shoots the same.

Planning to do the same thing, all my current projects are based on MLOK and only my first build is Keymod.

I just need to get around to selling my KMR9. It’s one of the lithium-aluminum rails so I figure I can at least get enough for basically an even swap for an MCMR9

[OlongJohnson]

My first build used a light profile ARP barrel and KMR13, everything else very normal selections. Came in at 5 lb., 10 oz. without even trying to lightweight it other than those two choices. I think I'll keep that KMR piece until I find it doing/not doing something I don't like. Future stuff will get MCMR, though.

[OlongJohnson]

Found a deal on MCMRs last week. Arrived today. Denser than the original KMR. Shorter this time, so I can’t compare weight directly. Very nicely made, perfect anodizing. Typical BCM quality appearance. Pleased so far.