Red dot vs iron question

[drjay9051]

I am a new shooter and currently have 2 guns with C More red dots. A Ruger .22 and a Sig 226. It took a bit of getting used to but now I can acquire the dot fairly rapidly and have no issues staying on 10 in steel at 10 yards but certainly not fast by any means.

I am picking up a Springfield Range Officer in 9mm today. It comes with adjustable rear sight so I have no intention of mounting a red dot. Price was too good to resist!

Question is to become a more proficient ( fast and accurate) marksman am I better served spending more time with the Springfield iron sights or the red dots on the .22 and the 226.

Maybe the answer is a bit of both?

When I watch videos of well known shooters like Miculek and Leatham they are amazing with and without red dots.

Safe to assume they practiced equally with both or was more time spent with iron sights as I believe they are more difficult to acquire and than the transition to red dot is easy?

I have no aspirations of competition but want to be faster and more accurate.

In terms of carry I opt for a simple J frame and when I practice with that it is pretty much point shooting

Any advice is appreciated.

Oh yes lastly, everyone says dry fire is crucial. Snap caps or not? My gunsmith says not needed except for rimfire but I have read differently.

[Peally]

Just my 2 cents, but for major "beginner" (ish) handgun practice I would stick to irons unless you CCW a pistol with a red dot or compete with one. The vast majority of pistols out there today have irons, so practicing on those (aside from giving you a good base of fundamentals like proper grip and index) would better serve you over a range of firearms. Once you have that solid base it's only a matter of acclimating to having the dot.

For dry fire I use rounds a friend loaded on a press, just with already fired primers, no powder, and a hole drilled through the case. That way I have magazines that are a similar weight to my carry/competition ones.

I'm sure someone a hell of a lot more qualified than me will be along to give better advice :)

[Chuck Haggard]

Two different systems. With a semi-auto pistol you need to develop the ability to track the sights, and the slide moves, this doesn't happen on rifles.

Now one could argue that using irons on the .22 rifle would help develop the habit of using iron sights, but I still think there isn't that much cross-over.

Ref the J frame; improve the sights and you'll find you can see them better. What J frame are you carrying? Much of what people carry nowadays are the stainless/alloy guns, the silver on silver sights are very hard to see. Paint the front orange and black out the rear with Sharpie as advised by Claude Werner and you'll find them MUCH easier to use.

If you want try dry fire extensively I'd go with snap caps, because it doesn't hurt and might help. If you broke a gun dry firing then you wouldn't be the only guy to have done so.

Think about Crimson Trace grips for the snub, they can make a huge difference in getting hits at speed, and they are a valuable dry fire tool as well.

[drjay9051]

Two different systems. With a semi-auto pistol you need to develop the ability to track the sights, and the slide moves, this doesn't happen on rifles.

Now one could argue that using irons on the .22 rifle would help develop the habit of using iron sights, but I still think there isn't that much cross-over.

Ref the J frame; improve the sights and you'll find you can see them better. What J frame are you carrying? Much of what people carry nowadays are the stainless/alloy guns, the silver on silver sights are very hard to see. Paint the front orange and black out the rear with Sharpie as advised by Claude Werner and you'll find them MUCH easier to use.

If you want try dry fire extensively I'd go with snap caps, because it doesn't hurt and might help. If you broke a gun dry firing then you wouldn't be the only guy to have done so.

Think about Crimson Trace grips for the snub, they can make a huge difference in getting hits at speed, and they are a valuable dry fire tool as well.

Thanks Chuck. The 22 is a pistol 22/45 not a rifle.

RE Crimson Trace I actually took those off the J frame and replaced with Pachymr due to my big meaty hands needing better grip.

The J frame is a S&W 360 PD. Very light. It has the fiber optic orange front sight.

[Chuck Haggard]

Thanks Chuck. The 22 is a pistol 22/45 not a rifle.

RE Crimson Trace I actually took those off the J frame and replaced with Pachymr due to my big meaty hands needing better grip.

The J frame is a S&W 360 PD. Very light. It has the fiber optic orange front sight.


Gotcha, you posted "gun" so for some reason my brain translated "Ruger .22" to 10-22

Did you have the 305s on your snub?

The front sight on that 360 is about as good as it gets on a J

[drjay9051]

The Crimsons were the smaller ones I believe they are 405 ?

As a newbie I opted for the smaller more concealable Trace grips. Clearly a mistake on my part. Want to buy them?

The Pachmayr Diamond pro grips are great. And that fiber optic front sight is hard to miss.

I always wondered how a red dot compared to laser such as Crimson for steel shooting. I imagine the laser is faster on target but possibly dances around more. I have never seen a competitive shooter with laser. Maybe due to washout in the sun ?

I have so much to learn.

[Peally]

Lasers can cause you to chase the dot instead of paying attention to the sights, they're a very niche product and certainly have their place, but I've never seen them at a local match aside from random guys that CCW shooting their carry gear for IDPA.

[Chuck Haggard]

The 305s are bigger than the 405s, and would be a near fit to your Pachmeyr grips.

I'd bet you could sell the 405s rather easily.

In low light matches people often find the laser to be far more useful than they would have guessed.


The dot you get from the CT grips, with a snub, is like having a free SIRT revolver included in your carry piece for when you are dry firing.

[45dotACP]

I am a new shooter and currently have 2 guns with C More red dots. A Ruger .22 and a Sig 226. It took a bit of getting used to but now I can acquire the dot fairly rapidly and have no issues staying on 10 in steel at 10 yards but certainly not fast by any means.

I am picking up a Springfield Range Officer in 9mm today. It comes with adjustable rear sight so I have no intention of mounting a red dot. Price was too good to resist!

Question is to become a more proficient ( fast and accurate) marksman am I better served spending more time with the Springfield iron sights or the red dots on the .22 and the 226.

Maybe the answer is a bit of both?

When I watch videos of well known shooters like Miculek and Leatham they are amazing with and without red dots.

Safe to assume they practiced equally with both or was more time spent with iron sights as I believe they are more difficult to acquire and than the transition to red dot is easy?

I have no aspirations of competition but want to be faster and more accurate.

In terms of carry I opt for a simple J frame and when I practice with that it is pretty much point shooting

Any advice is appreciated.

Oh yes lastly, everyone says dry fire is crucial. Snap caps or not? My gunsmith says not needed except for rimfire but I have read differently.

I'd work on spending more time iron sights. Miculek and Leatham are amazing because they practice a TON. You say you do not aspire to shoot competitively, but I'd recommend it. It's fun, and it shows you exactly how good you are compared to others. As for your carry gun, I'd second the recommendation of Laser Grips. That said, I'd not discount the idea of carrying a full sized pistol. With the right belt and holster, you'd be surprised what's concealable.

Find a trainer. Somebody with a good reputation. Take a class with them. They will tell you exactly how effectively you can use your sights as opposed to point shooting. You'd be surprised how fast and accurate using sights vs. point shooting can be. A good trainer will also help critique and perfect your technique, and spending 300 bucks learning how to shoot better is a better idea than spending 300 bucks of ammo that you just burn off without learning anything from it. Look in the "Classes" section of this forum. It is well worth it.

Good luck in your journey!

[taadski]

As Chuck noted, red dot sights and lasers both can provide really good feedback for learning to press the trigger well. They can be an invaluable teaching/learning tool. They also absolutely both have their utility on carry platforms and can be HUGE force multipliers, especially in the dark.

On the down side, I believe overusing them can also lead to building training scars; specifically becoming overly target/threat focused. Iron sight shooting is a rather particular skill (and a basic building block) and requires the ability to readily change up focal depth between the target and the sights to suit particular circumstances. This is a skill that aiming via a dot (be it a laser or a RDS) won't help develop. You'll need mileage with irons.

Re dryfire, I can tell you first hand that it's advisable to use snap caps on Sig pistols in particular. I've replaced tons of all three versions of Sig's FPPPs (Firing pin positioning pin; the pin that retains the firing pin, firing pin safety, locking block if your iteration has one, etc…) due to dryfire. All three will eventually be damaged from regular dryfire and can cause function problems (read click when you want a bang) when they break.


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[drjay9051]

I'd work on spending more time iron sights. Miculek and Leatham are amazing because they practice a TON. You say you do not aspire to shoot competitively, but I'd recommend it. It's fun, and it shows you exactly how good you are compared to others. As for your carry gun, I'd second the recommendation of Laser Grips. That said, I'd not discount the idea of carrying a full sized pistol. With the right belt and holster, you'd be surprised what's concealable.

Find a trainer. Somebody with a good reputation. Take a class with them. They will tell you exactly how effectively you can use your sights as opposed to point shooting. You'd be surprised how fast and accurate using sights vs. point shooting can be. A good trainer will also help critique and perfect your technique, and spending 300 bucks learning how to shoot better is a better idea than spending 300 bucks of ammo that you just burn off without learning anything from it. Look in the "Classes" section of this forum. It is well worth it.

Good luck in your journey!

Appreciate the advice. I will look into some coaching. Regarding EDC: I used to carry a Sig 239 in IWB but never felt at all comfortable. I imagine for IWB I'd need larger than normal pant size.

Have also carried OWB with a loose shirt. I was never a big fan of " I have 12 rounds and a spare magazine if SHTF"

I feel pretty good with 5 rounds in a very concealable J frame. just my opinion.