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seabiscuit
07-28-2011, 02:40 PM
Shot the FAST today at the end of a short practice session using my new mag carrier from Cane & Derby. The shot timer app on my phone crashed, so I switched to simply recording it.

Some things I noticed: I'm letting the trigger out to far, not catching it at the reset. I'm posting here looking for feedback on what else I need to work on. All of these shots were good - it was a clean run. Just really slow.

ETA: I don't actually start the test until about 0:20. I just check for the proper number of rounds first.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP0mKwbULzs

JV_
07-28-2011, 02:43 PM
I didn't see a press-out.

Your support hand has a delay before it goes to reach for the mag (FWIW: I do the same thing). You know the reload is coming, get it down faster (right after the bang).

seabiscuit
07-28-2011, 02:44 PM
I didn't see much of a press-out.

I've been working on that. I should bring the pistol up to a high retention position, then press out from there, right?

JV_
07-28-2011, 02:46 PM
I should bring the pistol up to a high retention position, then press out from there, right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCXmZD-Rym4

JV_
07-28-2011, 02:48 PM
I would also work on a "good enough" sight picture for the 4 body shots ....

ToddG
07-28-2011, 02:58 PM
First, it's very difficult to assess in a vacuum. Is that a typical run for you? Slow, fast? Do you usually get all your hits or did you slow down to verify each shot this time?

Try to move your hands from your rest position to the gun as fast as you can. It's ok to pause there to verify your grip but there is no benefit in getting there slowly. Ditto moving the gun from the holster to your ready/intermediate/press position... going slowly from point A to point B is a waste unless you're doing something in the meantime.

You are taking a very long time to break each shot. Are you getting little one-hole groups (taking too much time) or spread across the target zone (taking the appropriate amount of time for your skill level)?

There is a distinct pause between inserting the mag and dropping the slide. You're not indexing anywhere on your body when you perform the reload so the gun moves around a lot. It looks like your reload was ~3.5 seconds which is slow, but in part it's because of the time you take to acquire your sights and break the shot after the reload.

seabiscuit
07-28-2011, 03:41 PM
That is a pretty typical run, maybe a little slower because I dropped two body shots on the previous run. On early runs, I'd miss the mag well and fumble the reload, but that hasn't happened in a while.

Thanks for the input on the press-out. That's definitely an area that needs work.

On this run, all four body shots were in a palm-sized group, I think. So I should go faster, with a "good enough" sight picture?

Do you bring the pistol all the way back to high retention for the reload? Or how do you index that?

Thanks for all the replies, this will really help me focus my training.

VolGrad
07-28-2011, 04:18 PM
Other than what's been said already ....

Your re-load was done pretty far out ... not quite at full extension but pretty far out. Bring the gun in toward your body some and higher. HACK teaches you to bring up and high to the point you can see the target through the trigger guard. It will be in your line of sight making it easier to see what you are doing and still pretty much have your eyes on target.

jslaker
07-28-2011, 07:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCXmZD-Rym4

I think one of the big take aways watching Todd and other high level shooters on the draw and press out -- and something I still struggle with at times personally -- is fighting the urge to start pushing the gun out too soon. There's a lot of self-induced pressure to get that gun out there and make a bee line for target with the front sight.

But if you watch a well-executed pressout, the gun comes straight up and level, with the rear sights passing right at chin level and then the gun goes out. The bee line is tempting because it feels fast, but the deliberate, driving movement of the pressout makes a lot of sense when you put some thought into it. All your momentum is pushing straight out, instead of arriving quickly at the target and then bouncing around as you try to level out your sight picture.

Like I said, I still have a lot of brain fart moments with this one personally, but I've found that keeping in mind that I want to index the rear sight as well as the front as part of draw stroke helps quite a bit when I catch myself trying to rush things.

beltjones
07-28-2011, 11:27 PM
I'll add a couple of things that haven't been said yet...

First, most of the really big name shooters have totally abandoned the concept of only releasing the trigger to the reset point. They don't slap the trigger, but they let it out and prep between shots. There is also evidence from the FBI that releasing to reset may be impossible when shooting at speed. This is going to be controversial around here, so I'll leave it at that.

Second, what round are you shooting? Look at the back of your shoulders as you shoot - you're getting pushed backward quite a bit with every round, which is going to make it very difficult for the gun to recoil and come to rest back on the target. Get with a good instructor who can help with things like stanch, grip, and trigger control and you will see immediate improvement.

Otherwise, great job. You're definitely on the right path...

seabiscuit
07-28-2011, 11:44 PM
First, most of the really big name shooters have totally abandoned the concept of only releasing the trigger to the reset point.
... except Todd Green. It just seems like wasted movement to me.


Second, what round are you shooting? Look at the back of your shoulders as you shoot - you're getting pushed backward quite a bit with every round, which is going to make it very difficult for the gun to recoil and come to rest back on the target. Get with a good instructor who can help with things like stanch, grip, and trigger control and you will see immediate improvement.

Otherwise, great job. You're definitely on the right path...

Shooting 115gr FMJ. It's a Glock 26, so the grip's pretty small. But I do need to work on my stance - I think I could get lower, and that would help. And put opposing pressure on the grip, flexing my pecs.

Wow, I have a lot to work on.

JM Campbell
07-28-2011, 11:51 PM
Shooting a Glock 26, so the grip's pretty small. But I do need to work on my stance - I think I could get lower, and that would help. And put opposing pressure on the grip, flexing my pecs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBmN7mpVZWE&NR=1

Check out that Q&A session with Dave.

ToddG
07-29-2011, 01:09 AM
... except Todd Green. It just seems like wasted movement to me.

Nope. I've never taught riding the sear reset point. You're correct that it's wasted movement and if you had a robot that could move its finger precisely repeatedly it would be the fastest way to go. But we're not robots.

Let's suppose your gun resets after 0.15" of movement. If you always try to move your finger 0.15", and time you're even the slightest fraction of an inch too short you'll short stroke and prevent the gun from firing. If instead you let the trigger out just a bit more, you can safely avoid trigger freeze. Will it mean your finger is moving one or two 32nd's of an inch farther with each shot than absolutely necessary? Yup. But that's a very small -- some might argue meaningless -- price to pay for reliable function.

As was discussed around here somewhere recently, the best approach is to reset during recoil without letting your finger lose contact with the trigger and then break the shot once you've verified adequate visual alignment.

seabiscuit
07-29-2011, 04:53 AM
I was mistaken. However, in the video, it looks like I'm letting the trigger all the way out and breaking contact.

beltjones
07-29-2011, 06:45 AM
I was mistaken. However, in the video, it looks like I'm letting the trigger all the way out and breaking contact.

I'm no professional instructor, but the distance you let the trigger out is not the most critical part of the trigger manipulation cycle. Personally, I think people give it too much credence. Instead, focus on getting the trigger up to the point it's about to break, and then letting your subconscious finish the trigger pull when your vision has determined you have enough information to call the shot.

However, all of this stuff is pretty esoteric, and perhaps not as useful as it could be if being worked in isolation. I promise the best money you will spend is on a class with a good instructor. Failing that, get out to an IDPA / USPSA match and start buddying up to the Ms and GMs and glean everything you can from them.

seabiscuit
07-29-2011, 07:16 AM
On that note, does anyone know of some matches or good instructors in the Colorado Springs area?

ToddG
07-29-2011, 07:32 AM
but the distance you let the trigger out is not the most critical part of the trigger manipulation cycle.

True to a point but (a) the more distance your finger travels the more chance you have to disrupt sight alignment and (b) losing complete contact with the trigger at speed almost always leads to slapping the trigger hard which also tends to disrupt sight alignment.

When you start talking about watching GMs shoot, be careful you know what you're seeing. Someone shooting an immobile wide open target at 3yd is a lot different than shooting a difficult target under realistic conditions. Dave Sevigny shooting a slightly polished 3.5# Glock trigger is a lot different than someone with a 1911 using a 1.5# trigger with zero takeup and zero overtravel. Etc.

beltjones
07-29-2011, 07:54 AM
True to a point but (a) the more distance your finger travels the more chance you have to disrupt sight alignment and (b) losing complete contact with the trigger at speed almost always leads to slapping the trigger hard which also tends to disrupt sight alignment.

When you start talking about watching GMs shoot, be careful you know what you're seeing. Someone shooting an immobile wide open target at 3yd is a lot different than shooting a difficult target under realistic conditions. Dave Sevigny shooting a slightly polished 3.5# Glock trigger is a lot different than someone with a 1911 using a 1.5# trigger with zero takeup and zero overtravel. Etc.

Great points. Obviously I agree, not that anyone needs my validation.

As far as gleaning information from GMs goes, definitely choose a GM who shoots in your division. To your point, someone who has only ever shot Open might be able to give great points on a lot of things, but I wouldn't go to them with my questions about Glock trigger manipulation and calling shots with iron sights.

On the other hand, I haven't met many GMs who wouldn't stick around for a few minutes with a new shooter to show them a few pointers about grip, stance, reload technique, etc. Hanging around and being a sponge to these guys is a great way to get free lessons. With that said, clearly the best way to shorten the learning curve is to get into a good class for a couple of days with a great instructor.

VolGrad
07-29-2011, 08:15 AM
First, most of the really big name shooters have totally abandoned the concept of only releasing the trigger to the reset point. They don't slap the trigger, but they let it out and prep between shots
Names please. I have taken classes from a few of the "big names" within the past year or two and haven't heard of anyone abandoning utilization of the reset.

MODS, if this needs to be split off please feel free.

beltjones
07-29-2011, 09:32 AM
Names please. I have taken classes from a few of the "big names" within the past year or two and haven't heard of anyone abandoning utilization of the reset.

MODS, if this needs to be split off please feel free.

I started a thread to discuss it in the marksmanship forum. I'll post names a bit later when I have more time.

seabiscuit
08-03-2011, 08:39 PM
Did some dry-fire practice on press-outs and reloads with my new STActionPro snap caps. Open to feedback, tried to incorporate the advice given here. I'm still working on making my press-out level all the way through. I indexed my elbow inside my hipbone. If this should be a new thread, that's fine.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6rmNvrqPIw

ToddG
08-03-2011, 09:07 PM
I only watched the first 22 seconds.

You are not getting the gun up to your eye level. You are pressing straight out from your center chest to your final extension point which means you're not seeing the sights until the gun is more or less at extension. That means you'll either have to get a less precise sight picture before breaking the shot or you'll need to take additional time to refine your sight picture after the gun stops moving.

Perform all of your manipulations high and in front of you, even when you're just racking the slide to reset the trigger. Get in the habit of working with the gun in a specific place in front of you. Doing administrative stuff at your belly is wasting opportunity to practice.

Slavex
08-04-2011, 12:49 PM
a small note about the things you do in between your drills. Holster the gun before you pick up any mags, people have a tendency to sweep the gun to either side when they are bending over to grab stuff. On pretty much every course I've ever taken that was one of the first items mentioned after the safety rules and commands. When the gun is in your hand, focus on the things you are working on, when you are doing extraneous things like picking stuff up, fixing holster position or such, put the gun away, preferably in whatever condition you need it to be in on the draw. If you need mags that are on the dirt for that, then put it away empty. I'm probably not the only one here who's been swept by someone picking up a magazine.

seabiscuit
08-05-2011, 12:16 PM
Working on getting the pistol up to eye level before pressing out. Feels really strange at first. But then, so did shooting support side. Makes breaking the shot as soon as I get to full extension a lot easier. Thanks.

Slavex, 'preciate the feedback. I'll working on making that process much safer and smoother, keeping the pistol in the holster.

NickA
08-05-2011, 04:15 PM
IIRC Todd mentioned that practicing your press out SHO and WHO is a good way to get the motion down, maybe that will help.

mongooseman
08-31-2011, 06:29 PM
"Wow, I have a lot to work on."

I've been shooting for over twenty years and wish something like these websites and information were available when I was your age (you look late teens, early twenties to me). You're on the right track, find what works for you and discard what doesn't. Don't get discouraged when your skill level plateaus and then dips, it will come back up to a higher level. Good luck!