How Important Is The Perfect Grip?

[McCoy]

This is a bit of a long question, so I apologize in advance. As a long-time lurker, I figured you were the guys and gals to ask.

My girlfriend got into firearms a little less than a year ago after a guy started stalking her at her job and advanced to progressively creepier and more threatening acts and the cops took the (understandable) position of, "Call us if he actually commits a crime." I'd gotten my CCW license and started taking classes a few years prior, though I still consider myself a novice. We shopped around a bit, test fired a lot of rental guns, and she eventually settled on a Gen 4 Glock 19 (which is what I carry now as well, in case, you know, we get into a Mr. & Mrs. Smith-style multiple assailant gunfight in the streets of suburbia and need magazine interchangeability or whatever).

I figured she wouldn't keep up with it, but she's surprised me, and recently got her own CCW and has been taking a lot of classes (which is great), including several outstanding female-oriented ones that she really seems to like. The problem is, she has tiny hands, and it's becoming more of an issue the more she starts working seriously on things like drawing from concealment. If she gets the proper grip on the gun - seated directly in the web of the hand so it's lined up with the forearm bones, etc. - her index finger just isn't long enough to even make it to the trigger. If she shifts her strong hand to the right a little, she can get to it, but the gun's just slightly offset from that perfect alignment, and that's really started to annoy her.

Her solution is to move to a 1911. She's been banging away with one I have but don't carry, and found that a short 1911 trigger with thin grips lets her both get the "perfect" alignment and get enough finger on the trigger for proper trigger control. She's slowly shopping around for a 1911, and I'm trying to talk her out of it. My argument's pretty simple; I think sacrificing some perfection on the grip in favor of sticking with a far less expensive gun she already owns beats transitioning to a less concealable, heavier, far more expensive pistol with less capacity. She shoots the 1911 better, but only marginally so (at least as far as her time and accuracy on the drills she shoots goes). I can field strip a 1911, but that's really about it, and I know that I'd find one a pain in the ass to carry and conceal every day, so I'm thinking it'll be even harder for her to carry (as she's a hell of a lot smaller than I am), and the extra maintenance/knowledge burden might turn her off completely after a while.

So what's the verdict? Is proper gun-wrist-forearm alignment absolutely necessary, or should I keep banging the drum on sticking with the less-than-perfect grip on the Glock? She'll do what she'll do anyway, but I'd like to talk her out of throwing a kilobuck at a Colt Railgun or whatever if I can.

[TCinVA]

The wrist forearm thing is not important. Getting the right interface on the gun for her, is.

People who have small hands often have less grip strength than we larger mammals and may attempt to compensate on the trigger by using more trigger finger, thus exaggerating their problem. She will want to steer clear of that if possible.

As for the rest of her grip, knowing what the grip is supposed to do will help. I'm stuck on my iPhone so it's tough to type a thorough description, so perhaps some others who know what I'm talking about will explain a good grip...but the "perfect" alignment with the forearm isn't perfect by any means, certainly not for every human being picking up a handgun.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'd suggest trying a Shield or a Glock 42

Handgun to hand fit is way undervalued IMHO

[JV_]

If she gets the proper grip on the gun - seated directly in the web of the hand so it's lined up with the forearm bones, etc. - her index finger just isn't long enough to even make it to the trigger. If she shifts her strong hand to the right a little, she can get to it, but the gun's just slightly offset from that perfect alignment, and that's really started to annoy her.

I have small hands and have a similar problem. I have to rotate my hand to the right a little, it's no big deal, it's certainly not the limiting factor in my shooting ability. Having small hands does complicate reaching the mag button, I have to shift my grip for that, even on a Gen4. One key part is to focus pulling the trigger straight back, don't let the grip shift impact your ability to correctly manipulate the trigger.

Can you get a picture to see how much grip shift she requires? There can be too much shift required. I'm not sure if we could tell if it's too much without seeing her shoot, but we may be able to see if something is really askew.

She may also want to look at an M&P with small back strap, if she wants a full size gun, or even an M&P compact.

[McCoy]

I have small hands and have a similar problem. I have to rotate my hand to the right a little, it's no big deal, it's certainly not the limiting factor in my shooting ability. Having small hands does complicate reaching the mag button, I have to shift my grip for that, even on a Gen4. One key part is to focus pulling the trigger straight back, don't let the grip shift impact your ability to correctly manipulate the trigger.

Can you get a picture to see how much grip shift she requires? There can be too much shift required.

She may also want to look at an M&P with small back strap, if she wants a full size gun, or even an M&P compact.
I'll see if I can get a picture when we're both at home.

The M&P was one we looked at before she settled on the Glock 19. Same issue, surprisingly, though in retrospect probably not quite as bad. Same goes for my P30 with the smallest back strap and right panels.

Any of the usual polymer double stacks, even the ones recommended for small hands, end up with her hand slightly offset and no separation at all between her trigger finger and the frame, and juuuuust enough fingertip on the trigger itself to press it. The beavertail comes close to riding the first knuckle of her thumb, if not doing so outright.

And Chuck, the Shield is one we actually didn't try, I'll have to coax her out to take a look. Edit: I stopped following much M&P discussion when it became conventional wisdom that the 9mm varietals had accuracy issues at certain ranges. That still the case, and does it affect the Shield as well?

[holygoat]

For lots of people even a full size 1911 conceals better IWB than a Glock, and a 1911 with an alloy frame isn't all that heavy.

See how she feels comparing a Shield (or other single-stack carry 9mm) to an alloy 1911.

[olstyn]

the Shield is one we actually didn't try, I'll have to coax her out to take a look.

Have her try the Walther PPS while you're at it; in addition to the benefits the Shield has, the PPS's paddle mag release can be used with the trigger finger, meaning she shouldn't have to shift her grip to get it. It's also a VERY thin gun (0.9 inches thick), which should make it easier for a smaller person to conceal, especially if close-fitting clothing is an issue. The downside, of course, is reduced capacity; it carries 6, 7, or 8 rounds of 9mm, depending on which mag you choose to use, but of course that's pretty much the same story with the Shield.

[P210-6]

The most important factors for possessing a pistol, in order are:

1. Being able to lawfully possess the gun where you are domiciled.
2. Reliability of the gun.
3. Grip.

Of course, availability of ammunition is likewise critically important, but even then if there is no ammo for the gun you need a pretty darned good reverse grip to beat the bad guy until he stops or leaves.


You ask - "how important is the grip"? Far more important than caliber, brand or size. A reliable 1911 can be had for under $650, and there are some 9mm variants I hear are stoutly reliable as well.
Ideally, both of you having the same platform makes a lot of sense (shared magazines, pouches, holsters, parts), having two Glock 19s reduces everything to deciding about stuff for one gun.

[JV_]

A reliable 1911 can be had for under $650, and there are some 9mm variants I hear are stoutly reliable as well.Please name the make and models.

[Chuck Haggard]

While I'm not into the Shields (yet) as much as some of my friends, I hear not reports of these being inaccurate. Some of the guns I have shot are owned by guys who wouldn't tolerate an inaccurate gun, like Spencer.

Grip makes a drastic difference at times, more so with gals in my observation, and we dudes forget that.

My wife had my G26, and shot it fine, but getting her master grip on the draw was an issue, so was trigger reach as the OP has noted. She tried a borrowed Kahr on a whim while we were at the range, after firing several magazines from the Kahr she walked over with my unloaded G26, now being held like it was a smelly dead rat, and tells me that I am buying her a Kahr. The difference in ability to grip at speed, and to work the trigger, was dramatic for her. I would submit that getting solid hits with the first 2-3 shots in a gun is normally vastly more important than having 15 rounds in the gun.

[John Hearne]

I'd look at a Kahr or a Sig P320 with the small grip frame. My wife has very small hands and has a proven track record with her 1911 (thin grips, short trigger) and Kahr. The small P320 seemed very doable for her when handling it in the store (no live fire to verify).

[P210-6]

Please name the make and models.

The Ruger SR1911
The Springfield PB9108 (which I have shot but do not own) is similarly under $650
The Remington R1 is under $650

I purchased a new Springfield RO for under $650. Timing in that instance, was everything.

If you (speaking broadly) say those guns are unreliable, show me a gun under $650 that is, and with time I may be able to find issues with those guns (4th gen Glock had massive teething issues, for example).

I second the opinion that if her hands really are that small a Glock 42 will fit her hand, recoil is less pronounced compared to the G19. The downside is the perceived ineffectiveness of the .380 round. Many pistol rounds do not have the stopping capability of rifle rounds.

[Clusterfrack]

McCoy,

You didn't say whether she is shooting well, and improving with the G19. Many newer shooters get focused on things like how the gun feels in the hand, but what really matters is whether she shoots it well and can manipulate it well under stress--or whether she can do better with a different gun. Timed and scored drills will establish this. In my experience, few people perform better with a Shield than with a G19.

I do not grip my Glocks with the sides of the grip aligned with my arm bones because that unbalances my two-handed grip. As well, my trigger press is more neutral with the gun rotated slightly clockwise in my right hand. Surf has an outstanding video and description (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?6637-Glock-Trigger-Press&p=112307&viewfull=1#post112307) of how to figure out what works best for you.

[McCoy]

McCoy,

You didn't say whether she is shooting well, and improving with the G19. Many newer shooters get focused on things like how the gun feels in the hand, but what really matters is whether she shoots it well and can manipulate it well under stress--or whether she can do better with a different gun. Timed and scored drills will establish this. In my experience, few people perform better with a Shield than with a G19.

I do not grip my Glocks with the sides of the grip aligned with my arm bones because that unbalances my two-handed grip. As well, my trigger press is more neutral with the gun rotated slightly clockwise in my right hand. Surf has an outstanding video and description (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?6637-Glock-Trigger-Press&p=112307&viewfull=1#post112307) of how to figure out what works best for you.
She's definitely shooting well, a hell of a lot better than I was less than a year into starting to shoot. Of course, I also didn't wise up and start taking actual, professionally-instructed classes until much later.

The issue, as I've witnessed it, isn't so much the shooting, although she does tend to be hitting left with the Glock. It's more with the draw. She goes down, gets a good grip, draws...and then has to readjust her grip before shooting to get her finger on the trigger. It ain't much, but it's enough of a bobble that it's noticeable.

Also, Surf's video is showing up as unavailable. :(

[Clusterfrack]

Try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6-eJTS_5qg

[Alpha Sierra]

I'm with Chuck on this. Any handgun that forces you to mess with grip adjustments to get to the trigger properly, or to get the sights aligned as you index to target, is a handgun that needs to go away.

[Surf]

Sorry but the video's no longer exist publicly online anymore.

As far as grip goes, yes it is very important. Trigger finger placement and being able to properly manipulate the trigger is more important. Getting a quality weapon that properly fits the hand especially in regards to "trigger reach" is a big deal. Having said that the old concept of muzzle and forearm bone alignment made more sense in regards to a Weaver or more so a Chapman stance, but with a modern type of isosceles stance, bone alignment is not your friend. Aligning the weapon to the dominant eye more center line of the body is important.

My mother and wife both own 9mm Glock Gen 4's as their own preference and they both have small hands. It is about getting the shooter into a correct grip and stance. Now if the pistol still absolutely does not fit the hand, keep looking.

Here is a link to a post in the resource area. I also suggest reading the entire thread that post originated from. Good information.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13673-Thoughts-on-the-grip

[Surf]

I stand corrected, I guess there is still a video that remains out there.

[Chuck Haggard]

The Ruger SR1911
The Springfield PB9108 (which I have shot but do not own) is similarly under $650
The Remington R1 is under $650

I purchased a new Springfield RO for under $650. Timing in that instance, was everything.

If you (speaking broadly) say those guns are unreliable, show me a gun under $650 that is, and with time I may be able to find issues with those guns (4th gen Glock had massive teething issues, for example).

I second the opinion that if her hands really are that small a Glock 42 will fit her hand, recoil is less pronounced compared to the G19. The downside is the perceived ineffectiveness of the .380 round. Many pistol rounds do not have the stopping capability of rifle rounds.

I imagine the reason you were asked was due to it being uncommon for Glocks and such to crap the bed, while it is very common for lower priced 1911s to do so.

What long term or wide ranging info do you have that any of the 1911s you listed work?

[Lomshek]

So what's the verdict? Is proper gun-wrist-forearm alignment absolutely necessary, or should I keep banging the drum on sticking with the less-than-perfect grip on the Glock? She'll do what she'll do anyway, but I'd like to talk her out of throwing a kilobuck at a Colt Railgun or whatever if I can.

Have you looked into having a grip reduction done by ROBAR or one of the other reputable outfits. I've only heard secondhand but that has seemed to fix the problem for some small handed folks. A few hundred to make the Glock she likes fit perfectly would be money well spent.

[McCoy]

Have you looked into having a grip reduction done by ROBAR or one of the other reputable outfits. I've only heard secondhand but that has seemed to fix the problem for some small handed folks. A few hundred to make the Glock she likes fit perfectly would be money well spent.

I was actually looking into that just now, since apparently I'm going to spend my day reading forums rather than working.

The consensus seems to be that ROBAR/other grip reductions don't actually reduce trigger reach all that much, if at all. I have no idea first hand, but it's a common refrain.

[23JAZ]

This is a bit of a long question, so I apologize in advance. As a long-time lurker, I figured you were the guys and gals to ask.

My girlfriend got into firearms a little less than a year ago after a guy started stalking her at her job and advanced to progressively creepier and more threatening acts and the cops took the (understandable) position of, "Call us if he actually commits a crime." I'd gotten my CCW license and started taking classes a few years prior, though I still consider myself a novice. We shopped around a bit, test fired a lot of rental guns, and she eventually settled on a Gen 4 Glock 19 (which is what I carry now as well, in case, you know, we get into a Mr. & Mrs. Smith-style multiple assailant gunfight in the streets of suburbia and need magazine interchangeability or whatever).

I figured she wouldn't keep up with it, but she's surprised me, and recently got her own CCW and has been taking a lot of classes (which is great), including several outstanding female-oriented ones that she really seems to like. The problem is, she has tiny hands, and it's becoming more of an issue the more she starts working seriously on things like drawing from concealment. If she gets the proper grip on the gun - seated directly in the web of the hand so it's lined up with the forearm bones, etc. - her index finger just isn't long enough to even make it to the trigger. If she shifts her strong hand to the right a little, she can get to it, but the gun's just slightly offset from that perfect alignment, and that's really started to annoy her.

Her solution is to move to a 1911. She's been banging away with one I have but don't carry, and found that a short 1911 trigger with thin grips lets her both get the "perfect" alignment and get enough finger on the trigger for proper trigger control. She's slowly shopping around for a 1911, and I'm trying to talk her out of it. My argument's pretty simple; I think sacrificing some perfection on the grip in favor of sticking with a far less expensive gun she already owns beats transitioning to a less concealable, heavier, far more expensive pistol with less capacity. She shoots the 1911 better, but only marginally so (at least as far as her time and accuracy on the drills she shoots goes). I can field strip a 1911, but that's really about it, and I know that I'd find one a pain in the ass to carry and conceal every day, so I'm thinking it'll be even harder for her to carry (as she's a hell of a lot smaller than I am), and the extra maintenance/knowledge burden might turn her off completely after a while.

So what's the verdict? Is proper gun-wrist-forearm alignment absolutely necessary, or should I keep banging the drum on sticking with the less-than-perfect grip on the Glock? She'll do what she'll do anyway, but I'd like to talk her out of throwing a kilobuck at a Colt Railgun or whatever if I can.

Send the G19 to Robar for a grip reduction and texturing.

just read the post that already suggested Robar. My wife is 5'2" with very small hands her Glock had a grip reduction done to it and she says it feels a million times better in her hand. Might be worth giving it a try or like someone else said try out the shield.

[McCoy]

Send the G19 to Robar for a grip reduction and texturing.

just read the post that already suggested Robar. My wife is 5'2" with very small hands her Glock had a grip reduction done to it and she says it feels a million times better in her hand. Might be worth giving it a try or like someone else said try out the shield.

Interesting. Conflicting reports on the Robar.

Worth a shot, I suppose.

[Kimura]

She'll do what she'll do anyway, but I'd like to talk her out of throwing a kilobuck at a Colt Railgun or whatever if I can.

Why? If she's uncomfortable with the Glock and wants to change, why shouldn't she? Part of gaining experience as a shooter is learning what does and does not work for the individual. She seems to be well on that course. Yes good shooters can generally shoot anything well, but everyone has his/her own preferences. Since she's not issued the gun, why not let her decide through her own experiences what works best for her.

[Alpha Sierra]

There are other solid alternatives to the Glock 19

The ones I am familiar with:
CZ P-07, P-01, and 75D PCR
S&W M&P9c
SIG P229

[McCoy]

Why? If she's uncomfortable with the Glock and wants to change, why shouldn't she? Part of gaining experience as a shooter is learning what does and does not work for the individual. She seems to be well on that course. Yes good shooters can generally shoot anything well, but everyone has his/her own preferences. Since she's not issued the gun, why not let her decide through her own experiences what works best for her.

That's a fair point.

I'm concerned that she might wind up throwing a $1300 solution at a $500 problem, though. Having done that a lot myself, I've lived to regret it. And personally, I think the 1911's disadvantages outweigh its advantages as a carry gun for novices. I may well be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.

But as I said, it's ultimately up to her. If she chooses to go that route, I'm not going to stage a sit-in or anything. Mostly looking to back up my opinion that the bore-forearm alignment thing isn't world-ending crucial. Someone, either in this thread or another, mentioned Tori Nonaka, and I think there are a lot of similarities in the way they grip Glocks, so I may just point to her as an example.

[JV_]

The 229 is an interesting option. A Sig 226/229 with an E2 grip and a short trigger might be worth a try.

[JV_]

I imagine the reason you were asked was due to it being uncommon for Glocks and such to crap the bed, while it is very common for lower priced 1911s to do so.

Exactly.

[McCoy]

There are other solid alternatives to the Glock 19

The ones I am familiar with:
CZ P-07, P-01, and 75D PCR
S&W M&P9c
SIG P229

The M&P 9C and some varietal of Sig with the E2 grips are definitely on the list of things to try out at the range.


The 229 is an interesting option. A Sig 226/229 with an E2 grip and a short trigger might be worth a try.
Is Sig QC still a roll of the dice? I've always wanted a 226, but back when I was seriously thinking about picking one up the intertubes suggested that they not only malfunction but make inappropriate comments about your mother while doing so.

[Clusterfrack]

... Mostly looking to back up my opinion that the bore-forearm alignment thing isn't world-ending crucial.

Not only isn't world-ending crucial, it's probably not a good way to grip a gun for a modern isosceles stance. While your wife may think she's doing it wrong, it may actually be right.

CZ P-01 has a very long reach to the DA trigger. I'm guessing that's a no-go.

Sigs or other higher bore axis guns, in the hands of a newer shooter who has yet to develop a strong, high grip may result in not-so-great performance. If she's really focused on hand feel, the HK P30 and VP9 are worth a look. They have one of the most adjustable grip systems.

[JV_]

Is Sig QC still a roll of the dice?

It probably depends on who you ask, but I don't have any reservations about buying a new one.

[JodyH]

The problem is, she has tiny hands, and it's becoming more of an issue the more she starts working seriously on things like drawing from concealment. If she gets the proper grip on the gun - seated directly in the web of the hand so it's lined up with the forearm bones, etc. - her index finger just isn't long enough to even make it to the trigger. If she shifts her strong hand to the right a little, she can get to it, but the gun's just slightly offset from that perfect alignment, and that's really started to annoy her.
Are her hands smaller than an 11 year old boys (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3559-Kids!&p=269306&viewfull=1#post269306)?
My 11 year old shoots a M&P 9 with the small backstrap installed just fine.

On "grip". Most new shooters don't know what a good grip feels like. They think "feels good while shooting" = "good shooting grip" and that's not correct.
My suggestion is for her to go to a good technical shooting instructor (that's probably not your local NRA pistol instructor) and learn what a solid shooting grip is before she get's wound up about how guns feel in her hand.

[camsdaddy]

My glock 19 never fit my hand until I went from gen 3 to 4.

[Tamara]

What does she want to do?


My 11 year old shoots a M&P 9 with the small backstrap installed just fine.

A lot of people can "h-grip" the heck out of a gun and still shoot it just fine if they put their mind to it.

[Alpha Sierra]

CZ P-01 has a very long reach to the DA trigger. I'm guessing that's a no-go.

Easily fixable with a set of thinner, G10 or aluminum grips. The P-07 is very thin and has quite a short reach to the trigger.

[SecondsCount]

My wife runs a women's firearm training company and we work with hundreds of women each year. The worst thing we find is that a husband, boyfriend, guy she works with, or the jackwagon at the gun shop tells them what kind of gun they must use. Of course a Glock has to be the right gun because thousands of cops carry them into danger every day. ;)

My wife carries a compact 1911 in 9mm. It is an expensive custom but do I care about the cost? Not really because while she can shoot a Glock fairly well and about any pistol that you put in her hands, the 1911 is the gun that she loves to shoot. What that translates into is an increased amount of enjoyable range time.

We own a Glock, Sig, Beretta, Kahr, 1911s of various flavors, an M&P, and H&Ks but the 1911 is her favorite. When we train with ladies they get to try them all and usually the 9mm Springfield 1911 and the M&P9c come out on top as favorites. As guys, I think we get way too hung up sometimes on the nuances of gun ownership when we should just let the ladies decide what they want and let them sort the rest out by themselves.

[Tamara]

As guys, I think we get way too hung up sometimes on the nuances of gun ownership when we should just let the ladies decide what they want and let them sort the rest out by themselves.

I think it's simpler than that, even. Didn't we recently have a big, long thread about The Joy of Shooting, and how shooting a gun you liked, were passionate about even, made you want to get to the range more often?

[KeeFus]

Is Sig QC still a roll of the dice? I've always wanted a 226, but back when I was seriously thinking about picking one up the intertubes suggested that they not only malfunction but make inappropriate comments about your mother while doing so.

Sig's QC is still spotty. A couple weeks ago I was at our Justice Academy pre-qualifying for Firearms Instructor class. There is a very large agency here that just ditched their M&P 357 Sig for Sig 226's (too obvious?) in the same caliber. They are having extractor breakage problems and something about an extractor pin. Not believing that I asked around when I got back home and confirmed the issue.

Secondly, there was another agency on tap with 2012 production year Sig 226 in 40 S&W. He was having failures to feed issues. When he got off line I asked what was the problem. He retorted that ever since they had their Sigs they have had issues. Seems like they received 226's with out of spec feed ramps. Sig's solution was to send a Sig employee to the range and have EVERY employee stop by for a fix. The fix? The employee sat there and filed away on the ramp and would then give the officer his gun to go fire. If it worked it was fixed...if not the employee would file away some more until the problem was resolved. I'm sorry, but that's a NO-GO in my book. Why not just replace the barrels? There're also having some sort of sight issue that I didn't get any detail on.

Last but not least there was a Glock that was having feeding issues. As soon as I saw it I recognized it as a potential mag issue but the dude kept using it...??? At any rate it cost him his spot in an upcoming class as he was sent packing.

[farscott]

Interesting. Conflicting reports on the Robar.

Worth a shot, I suppose.

I am not a lady, but I have the small hands and fingers of one. Sucks for me, but it is true as my hands are no larger than my wife's. As such, I have tried the Robar grip reduction, and I found it inferior to that done by Lane Owens of Cold Bore Customs. I love Robar's metal finishing, but the stuff they use on Glock grip frames flakes like crazy and makes for an inconsistent grip. Not good at all. Below is a Glock 29 with the Robar work. The stuff they use to add the texture comes off on everything.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/Glock_29_001.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/Glock_29_001.jpg.html)

I also am a 1911 fan, but a 1911 that I trust is much more costly than a pair of Glock 19 pistols. If that is an issue, the HK P30 with the small side panels and back strap may be a viable alternative. That pistol is perfect for my little hands and has replaced my Glock 19 carry guns. My wife is a huge P30 fan and shoots the snot out of her pair. That alone was worth the price.

[Chuck Haggard]

I think it's simpler than that, even. Didn't we recently have a big, long thread about The Joy of Shooting, and how shooting a gun you liked, were passionate about even, made you want to get to the range more often?

^This^, and what SecondsCount said.

My bride carries either a Kahr PM9 or a Taurus 732

Yes, one is low cap, the other is a .32, however, she really likes those guns, enjoys shooting them a great deal, thus she feels comfortable in getting hits with them, and so she is willing to carry those guns around.

Would I rather she be carrying a Shield or G19 if she were to get into a fight? Yup, but it's not my call.

[Chuck Whitlock]

There are subtleties involved, too. I also have small hands. Although they are similar in size, I find the grip of the Kahr CW9 more comfortable than the Shield.

[John Hearne]

For me, the major consideration with pistol and hand interface is reliability. All pistols but especially polymer framed pistols are susceptible to malfunctions from an interface that does not solidly lock up the frame and keep it steady while the moving parts reciprocate.

[psalms144.1]

For me, the major consideration with pistol and hand interface is reliability. All pistols but especially polymer framed pistols are susceptible to malfunctions from an interface that does not solidly lock up the frame and keep it steady while the moving parts reciprocate.John, I completely agree. I used to scoff at the idea of Glock "limp wristing" as I'd NEVER been able to make a 9mm Glock malfunction, even shooting it with the loosest possible grip. Then I took a co-worker to the range who wanted to try my G26 (looking for a smaller/lighter alternative to the issued P229). My perfectly reliable G26 went to poop in her hands, failing to feed, failing to go fully into battery, etc - at least 2-3 times/magazine. She's a fine shooter with her issued pistol, and when she tried another guy's G27, had no trouble, but something about the way she "interfaced" with the G26 made it a non-starter for her (which I think is a shame).

Doesn't sound like that's an issue in this case, though...

[runcible]

In reply to the original post and question:

I'm going to alter the OP's terminology: replacing his use of "proper grip" with "idealized" or "textbook grip;" if "proper grip" is defined as the grip that allows one to execute rapid and accurate fires with the given pistol, and "textbook grip" is defined as the optimal hand in proportion to a given pistol with both in ideal positions relative to each other. Such photos often involve j-frames and 1911s held in medium to large hands, and gloss over the reasoning and hierarchy of priorities, in favor of overly-brief specifics.

For frame of reference, I wear a size 2 or 4 in the military glove sizing system.

A textbook grip is only of benefit to the shooter if their hands and weapon are in similar relativity to what is depicted and described. A proper grip is self evident by the hits and splits it enables.

I believe that the trigger finger placement has priority over the placement of the web of the hand; one must fire a well-placed round before one can manage the recoil, after all. So the first is established, and then the second is made from what remains. Identifying points of reference on the weapon are essential for building a consistent and practical firing grip from the onset - tactile indexing points first for how the firing hand lands on the weapon, and then for the trigger fifer to index onto the frame as the weapon is drawn clear of the holster. The goal in identifying either is to have a proper firing grip from the initial; and barring that, to know that adjustment is needed before the trigger finger enters the trigger guard.

[1slow]

My wife has small but very strong hands (blacksmithing, stone sculpting, pottery etc...). The HK P2000SK Lem is her favorite 9mm.
She hates my Glocks and now that I am using P30 LEM 9mms and HK45s says that she was right all along.

[Chuck Haggard]

I've seen a couple of people mention "feel", we might need a reminder that "feel" is overrated.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/5108


The issues with grip that I commonly see, and as the OP noted, is in getting a solid shooting grip on the gun from the holster.
In the past when we issued the S&W 5906 we had all kinds of problems with the IBOs not being able to get a good grip on the gun, to be able to run the DA first shot, to be able to sun the safety on the gun. A couple of our Chiefs gave less than a rat's ass, with the question being "Well, they qualified didn't they?".

IMHO grip effects the ability to draw efficiently, and to get those first couple of shots off accurately. I firmly believe that one reason why so many OISs involve coppers missing like crazy is they were set up from the beginning to fail due to the "Well, they qual'd didn't they?" mentality combined with crappy gun fit, and "feelings" instead of hard data from a quality training program that measures things that are important instead of training to the LCD standards and getting troops through the qual.

[McCoy]

Thanks for all the replies, folks. I've read them with interest, and there's a lot of food for thought.

We took a quick trip to the nearest gun store yesterday and browsed around. They didn't have everything that's been recommended, but they had quite a few of them.

The Shield, according to her, is a good fit and feels good and she doesn't believe she'd have the needing to readjust grip off the draw problems with it. The M&P9c isn't as good but would probably work. With the Shield, though, she expressed the notion that if she's only going to have an eight-round magazine, why not make it an eight-round magazine of .45, and thus the 1911? I believe the hoss behind the counter was considering proposing to her right then and there.

Similar results with the slimline Walthers.

We tried out my P30 at the range again. It seems to be better than the Glock, in that she can get a decent grip from the draw on it and still reach the trigger, but she complained of pain at the base of her thumb after four or five mags and didn't want to keep shooting it.

She liked the fit of a 226 enough that we took the rental gun for a spin, where it promptly crapped the bed and had five malfunctions in the space of three mags, including the last one shot by me to make sure she wasn't doing anything weird. I think it's off the table. I doubt it's representative of all SIGs, but it turned her off.

Guess I better start reading up on what's good in the 1911 world these days.

[Chuck Haggard]

I'd throw out to try the FNS as well if you guys haven't already.

Ref Shield vs 1911; You're more likely to get a gun that works right now going with the Shield, for half or more of the cost, and with the lower recoil and all that we know the 9mm brings to the table. You can likely get a Shield, holsters, ammo, mags, and a good class all for less than what a quality 1911 is going to cost.

That said, if girl wants a 1911, can conceal it, and shoots it well, then.........

[John Hearne]

The issues with grip that I commonly see, and as the OP noted, is in getting a solid shooting grip on the gun from the holster. ... IMHO grip effects the ability to draw efficiently, and to get those first couple of shots off accurately. I firmly believe that one reason why so many OISs involve coppers missing like crazy is they were set up from the beginning to fail due to the "Well, they qual'd didn't they?" mentality combined with crappy gun fit, and "feelings" instead of hard data from a quality training program that measures things that are important instead of training to the LCD standards and getting troops through the qual.

While I agree, I think the effect is larger than that. In the FBI research on deadly force encounters, they noted that guns malfunctioned in the field a lot more than anyone would have expected. Similarly, the NTI reported that they saw a lot more malfunctions than you'd expect to see based on square range shooting.

I think this comes down the effects of getting a bad grip on the gun while trying to rapidly deploy it under high levels of stress and minimal practice. This is compounded by some of the designs of the draw-proof holsters that agencies issue. (John's casual observation - the more scared the admins are of guns, the higher the level of retention - least the guns leap out of the holster and start shooting all by themselves) Some of the level 3 designs require you that you rock back. If there is the least amount of slip while applying that backward motion, the hand will slide down and you get a very bad grip very quickly/easily.

Talk about nasty spiral that is entirely preventable - inadequate training --> gun too large for hand --> draw proof holster --> first round misses due to poor grip --> gun malfunctions due to poor grip.

[David S.]

SIG P239 or Springfield EMP?

[McCoy]

I'd throw out to try the FNS as well if you guys haven't already.

Ref Shield vs 1911; You're more likely to get a gun that works right now going with the Shield, for half or more of the cost, and with the lower recoil and all that we know the 9mm brings to the table. You can likely get a Shield, holsters, ammo, mags, and a good class all for less than what a quality 1911 is going to cost.

That said, if girl wants a 1911, can conceal it, and shoots it well, then.........

Yeah, I've been working the cost argument.

I think we might just be in the "I want a 1911 because I want a 1911" edge of the envelope right now, and having gone through that myself, there's not much to be done about it.

[ken grant]

This is a bit of a long question, so I apologize in advance. As a long-time lurker, I figured you were the guys and gals to ask.

My girlfriend got into firearms a little less than a year ago after a guy started stalking her at her job and advanced to progressively creepier and more threatening acts and the cops took the (understandable) position of, "Call us if he actually commits a crime." I'd gotten my CCW license and started taking classes a few years prior, though I still consider myself a novice. We shopped around a bit, test fired a lot of rental guns, and she eventually settled on a Gen 4 Glock 19 (which is what I carry now as well, in case, you know, we get into a Mr. & Mrs. Smith-style multiple assailant gunfight in the streets of suburbia and need magazine interchangeability or whatever).

I figured she wouldn't keep up with it, but she's surprised me, and recently got her own CCW and has been taking a lot of classes (which is great), including several outstanding female-oriented ones that she really seems to like. The problem is, she has tiny hands, and it's becoming more of an issue the more she starts working seriously on things like drawing from concealment. If she gets the proper grip on the gun - seated directly in the web of the hand so it's lined up with the forearm bones, etc. - her index finger just isn't long enough to even make it to the trigger. If she shifts her strong hand to the right a little, she can get to it, but the gun's just slightly offset from that perfect alignment, and that's really started to annoy her.

Her solution is to move to a 1911. She's been banging away with one I have but don't carry, and found that a short 1911 trigger with thin grips lets her both get the "perfect" alignment and get enough finger on the trigger for proper trigger control. She's slowly shopping around for a 1911, and I'm trying to talk her out of it. My argument's pretty simple; I think sacrificing some perfection on the grip in favor of sticking with a far less expensive gun she already owns beats transitioning to a less concealable, heavier, far more expensive pistol with less capacity. She shoots the 1911 better, but only marginally so (at least as far as her time and accuracy on the drills she shoots goes). I can field strip a 1911, but that's really about it, and I know that I'd find one a pain in the ass to carry and conceal every day, so I'm thinking it'll be even harder for her to carry (as she's a hell of a lot smaller than I am), and the extra maintenance/knowledge burden might turn her off completely after a while.

So what's the verdict? Is proper gun-wrist-forearm alignment absolutely necessary, or should I keep banging the drum on sticking with the less-than-perfect grip on the Glock? She'll do what she'll do anyway, but I'd like to talk her out of throwing a kilobuck at a Colt Railgun or whatever if I can.

Just how many GOOD shooters have the pistol in line with their forearm when using an ISO stance?

[Mr_White]

Quick question for those who aren't concerned about having the slide/barrel align with the bones of the forearm when shooting freestyle from mod iso: do you think that lack of alignment becomes more significant when the pistol is fired with one hand only?

What I'm getting at is whether there may be a difference between lacking that alignment in mod iso because of back pressure in the wrist/forearm of the strong hand, vs. lacking that alignment because the hand and gun don't fit well so the h-grip is used out of necessity, and how effectively those two arrangements might translate to shooting the gun one-handed.

[Kimura]

Yeah, I've been working the cost argument.

I think we might just be in the "I want a 1911 because I want a 1911" edge of the envelope right now, and having gone through that myself, there's not much to be done about it.

Has she tried a P2000 in TDA or a USP compact with a safety only? Maybe she'll like one of those.

Regarding the 1911; like any pistol I would make sure I could shoot it one handed with either hand. And since she's going to carry it, if you have a 2.5lb pound all steel pistol hanging around and a holster to fit it, she might want to try wearing one around the house for a day or two before making a final decision. The only 1911 I've done a decent amount of shooting with is a TRP Operator and it clocked in at 41 or 42oz. It was a great gun, but it was also really heavy. May or may not make a difference to her.

[EricM]

Could someone please define the term "h-grip"? This thread is the first time I've come across it.

[Clusterfrack]

That's a great question, Gabe. I'll answer for how it works for me. If I make a U shape with my hand, so the thumb is straight, a small frame Glock is aligned with the thumb, the backstrap is square against my palm, and my trigger finger can form a neutral position on the trigger when it breaks. The gun seems to be ideally aligned in my hand in an unambiguous grip, which is one reason I like Glocks so much. With a two handed grip, proper alignment of the sights with my eye requires a slight rotation of my wrist, which "misaligns" the gun with the bones of the forearm. I don't see much of a difference in wrist angle when I transition to SHO--just enough to maintain sight alignment when I move my left foot back a bit.

When my 14-year old daughter shoots a Glock, she has to H-grip, and that kittens up her SHO and WHO shooting.

[Mr_White]

Could someone please define the term "h-grip"? This thread is the first time I've come across it.

h-grip is what a person does when the reach to the trigger is too long for a person's hand size/finger length/finger strength, and they need to adjust their grip to get more finger on the trigger. The side effect is normally to make it harder to reach controls with the strong hand thumb on the support side of the gun, and to prevent alignment between the slide/barrel and the bones of the forearm when the gun is held with one hand. Having that slide-forearm alignment is something that is often (traditionally, I think?) taught as part of a 'proper grip' and part of 'proper' gun-to-hand fit, but that is not universally agreed upon. That more traditional grip is also not possible when the factual situation is that a person is stuck with a gun (issued, economic, or other situational necessity) that is too big for their hands, so it does have to be dealt with at least some of the time.



That's a great question, Gabe. I'll answer for how it works for me. If I make a U shape with my hand, so the thumb is straight, a small frame Glock is aligned with the thumb, the backstrap is square against my palm, and my trigger finger can form a neutral position on the trigger when it breaks. The gun seems to be ideally aligned in my hand in an unambiguous grip, which is one reason I like Glocks so much. With a two handed grip, proper alignment of the sights with my eye requires a slight rotation of my wrist, which "misaligns" the gun with the bones of the forearm. I don't see much of a difference in wrist angle when I transition to SHO--just enough to maintain sight alignment when I move my left foot back a bit.

When my 14-year old daughter shoots a Glock, she has to H-grip, and that kittens up her SHO and WHO shooting.

That's pretty much how it breaks down for me too and that's exactly what I was getting at. I used to 'overgrip' comparatively speaking, which was probably a hangover from when I shot an old school G21, which I h-gripped slightly. A few years ago I changed to gripping less, which allowed the more traditional slide-forearm alignment and gets less finger on the trigger (this was with the G17 and later the G34.)

[runcible]

H-grip is a new term, for me.

As described, I H-grip almost every pistol that I've ever picked up, minus some modern single-stacks.

While having some of the described alignments and indexes would probably be nice, in the end, they're absence is not an unassailable obstacle to proficiency. I do alright when it comes to qualifications, tests, and at classes; as do others with such hands and the same metal-framed, double stacked, high bore axis duty-weapon.

One must often ignore the preached "ideal" as depicted with the ideal hands on the most suitable of guns, and do what it takes to get the rounds where they need to be from the gun you hold in your own hand(s).

[Mr_White]

I'm not at all suggesting that 'good shooting' or 'proficiency', whatever we want those kinds of terms to mean, can't be done with the h-grip. As noted, some people in some circumstances are stuck with the h-grip. Clearly it is workable. I think the question is whether it is an impediment, and whether it makes a difference freestyle, one-handed, neither, or both.

[Clusterfrack]

A while ago I was experimenting with a slight h grip that allowed me to get some support hand thumb base behind the gun. It was great for recoil control but I moved away from that for multiple reasons: trigger finger mechanics, consistency with SHO, and mag release.

[Surf]

Quick question for those who aren't concerned about having the slide/barrel align with the bones of the forearm when shooting freestyle from mod iso: do you think that lack of alignment becomes more significant when the pistol is fired with one hand only?

What I'm getting at is whether there may be a difference between lacking that alignment in mod iso because of back pressure in the wrist/forearm of the strong hand, vs. lacking that alignment because the hand and gun don't fit well so the h-grip is used out of necessity, and how effectively those two arrangements might translate to shooting the gun one-handed.I was a Chapman type of shooter from 25+ years ago, so the "muzzle alignment with the forearm bone" was more advantageous at that time as that type of stance aligns the muzzle, forearm and eye from an offset or canted stance in a straight alignment. It took me many years to get over that ingrained concept even after adapting to the Mod Iso, where I thought I still needed that bone alignment. The argument is recoil mitigation along the bone structure, yada, yada. Hell I taught that alignment for years admittedly out of dogmatism, even though I myself had gone completely away from it. I only completely scrapped teaching it within my program in the last 3 years or so, instead attempting to get a natural point of aim first and if forearm alignment does or does not happen so be it, with one caveat. If the shooters hand is so small that the natural point of aim alignment puts the backstrap of the weapon on the knuckle of the primary shooting hands thumb, than this can also be an issue.

In a true Mod Iso, the main concern IMO is the neutrality of the grip. Keeping the weapons alignment straight with the LOS without the need for any tension, be it muscular, counter tension or counter torquing of the weapon. Of course people can be phenoms and do things with high success that most cannot. From any stance I believe we should align the weapon in the same manner we align a rifle with a natural point of aim, or the natural LOS without any influence from the grip, fingers or tension applied on the weapon to get the alignment.

As for your question directly in regards to one handed shooting, think of this. Go from a two handed Mod Iso without bone alignment. Then remove your support hand and push the weapon and your primary hand forward at bit. Your shoulders rotate slightly, the head moves slightly and the pistol and hand comes in to a bone alignment allowing for more stability that you lost with the support hand. Your grip on the weapon does not change but the alignment straightens itself out. For myself and those that I work with most often will tend to pronate the grip slightly, never going beyond 45* cant. This is often a default for myself as a good deal of my one handed shooting revolves around a shield and unless if you have orangutan length arms you must bend at the elbow and cant the pistol in order to be able to even get on the sights. I used to have video shooting rapid strings of fire on steel from this pronated or canted position and I used to get quite a bit of inquiry or comments over it. Bottom line is if you start to pronate the palm, the wrist structure gets stronger, which manages recoil efficiently. You must however get used to the path of recoil as recovery of the weapon is no longer up and down. But with one hand on the weapon will still need to learn a varied path of recovery anyway.

[P210-6]

I imagine the reason you were asked was due to it being uncommon for Glocks and such to crap the bed, while it is very common for lower priced 1911s to do so.

What long term or wide ranging info do you have that any of the 1911s you listed work?


Hello Chuck,

On 1911s: No experience as such to write home about, especially in comparison to company here.
To answer your question in completion would mean access to MTBF rates and actual statistical (quality assurance/control) data from production, and access to service/repair logs at the manufacturer service level. Of those three only the first is potentially available to “the public”.
I have seen a fair number of guns do weird things under multiple day / day long activity. Of the lot it is my (again limited) experience that 1911s across the board suffer a higher failure rate – where failure is defined as the inability to immediately return the gun to service without major intervention (parts, or armorer/gunsmith action) when compared to M&Ps, Glocks, classic SIGS (P2xx).
At best, my response is based solely on anecdotal data, as I do not have a swath of data wide or deep enough to boldly make claims. It is not enough to say that FNS9’s are garbage because my personal model had problems where the gun ran off the rails and into the river, or likewise that a specific model of 1911/Glock/Walther is awesome because I’ve put 2k trouble free rounds thru mine.
But, I’ve worked on enough guns - I have been an armorer for SIG, 1911, AR15, Glock, M&P, etc , as well as having had been a NYS licensed gunsmith, and interacted (interact) with a broad enough pool of shooters on the ranges and in classes to make what I consider to be a sound practical statement on the models I’ve mentioned.

I have seen $1100 Kimbers do what you describe on the range (fail) , and I’ve seen Glocks and SIGS likewise fail – some enough to be classified as a stoppage, others where some mechanism on the gun fails but where the gun will continue to run if the user/operator understands how to work around/beyond the malfunction. I have also seen higher end 1911s fail – one in particular, which was no fault of the manufacturer but due to the shooter not following mfgr recommendations on use & service. Likewise I have seen Berettas, SIGs, Glocks, revolvers etc to failure from lack of proper maintenance.

In your experience, and with your access, what evidence have to seen to discount my claim that those specific models I’ve listed are unreliable for CCW duty? I’ve made my initial statement in this thread based on the stated need(s) McCoy's girlfriend. Yes, you are rolling the dice on a lower end 1911 in a 2 day 800 round class – especially if the gun requires a break-in period. A similar conundrum is not a part of a G19s reality; it can be taken out of box, cleaned (or not) and pressed into service with that stated round count without batting an eye.

I’ve always recommended to folks they get the most reliable gun they can afford that fits their hands, and whose recoil they can deal with. I meant to add in my original post to the OP a question on how much is his or his girlfriend’s peace of mind and ultimately life worth – the difference between a $500 gun and a $1100 gun? Absolutely the difference ($600) will get you two days of quality training and hotel rooms at many of the top/intermediate tier gun-training entities, but if you extrapolate that difference in cost of the gun (say 1911 vs Glock) over the useful service life of the pistol (conservatively speaking, 20 years) then the difference in cost really is negligible. If she (his girlfriend) gets a G19 – and I did list some of the pluses of doing so, but shelves if after a fashion because of slight discomfort with the grip, the gun ends up where I see many guns here end up – not being carried as originally intended.

On occasion when I am faced with a man-woman team where the man is helping the woman choose the gun, what is really happening is the man is overpowering the woman’s perspective and ends up with a gun that he likes, but she is not fully comfortable with. I’ve had enough pairs come to me where I’ve recommended additional training with a shotgun, knowing the female’s handgun does not get as utilized as planned. I aint saying this is what is happening here – his girl seems all squared away with being a gunny. I did not post this because


The OP did not ask for this opinion! :) and
Sometimes advice from the FNG may be sound or practical, it may come across the wrong way. Had I included this piece in my original response folks may have seen the balance in my thoughts.


Hope this all makes sense. In closing, women who are earnest about shooting makes me warm all over. I've long preached that we (ardent shooters & 2A proponents) need to help women as much as possible be comfortable on the range, in the class and with their selected guns. Women have a bigger impact than men for passing on the love of shooting to our offspring because in general women in our society spend more time raising our kids, and from a "personal security" perspective - and this is an original thought of mine and was pleasantly pleased when I heard Chris Costa voice a similar if not identical opinion...the difference being he is much more handsome, proficient, and makes videos I cannot replicate in my dreams on a very good day, I heard Costa in a video say that lots of men go to training and bulk up on training because they want to "protect their families" but leave a big ol blind spot in their training because their girlfriends and wives often have much lesser training than they do, but are the ones running around with the kids to dance class, Jr karate, pee-wee soccer, etc (not his exact words, paraphrasing here).

Have a safe, productive day out there folks.
P210-6

[benq]

Thinking outside the box :
What about a 380auto? Or sticking with a 9mm, the Springfield XDS in 9mm. It is a single stack 9mm that fits the bill for me as a ccw. Good luck.

[PetRats]

There is no such thing as the "perfect" grip, but it is impoertant enough to ditch one gun in favor of another if the first one doesn't feel or fit right.

My advice will be different than anyone else because I have a range of unconventional grips that I use depending on the gun and the circumstances.

For the momewnt, let's keep the circumstances to the real-world, life-or-death decisions and situations in which you may actually have to use your gun to save a life and possibly take another in the process. George Scott's memorable opening speech in the movie "Patton" always comes to mind when I think of this. If I may, allow me to repeat it:

NO MAN EVER WON A WAR BY WANTING TO DIE FOR HIS COUNTRY

First of all: the whole Weaver vs. Triangle stance is

[zacii]

At the risk of exposing myself a total novice, I believe that I can relate here.


I have small hands, too. It was very frustrating learning to shoot pistols. My first training experience was a 4 day affair with a 1911 from a less than desirable manufacturer. I was using what I had.

It became very apparent that my finger placement on the trigger was paramount for accuracy. I was really struggling because to guarantee my 1st shot was good meant that my follow-up shot was rushed and thrown low and left. I had to choose between good trigger finger placement, or forearm alignment. Couldn't have both.

The instructors insisted that I used their preferred grip, which they called a modified Weaver.

It just didn't work for me. No matter what, I couldn't make that pistol recoil straight back like I was supposed to. Very frustrating.

Later on, I took a 2 day class from the same people. This time I took an XD Subcompact 9 and a Glock 23. I was experiencing the same problems. I attributed my lack of control to my small hands and the inability to line the pistol up with my forearm.

After taking those 2 classes, I tried numerous different pistols; read tons of info and watched tons of videos, including many from Surf.

I was very discouraged because I wanted to shoot the pistols that I wanted. I didn't want to be limited to the small revolvers, and small semiautomatics that supposedly fit properly.

One day I just decided to hell with it. I'm gonna shoot what I want to shoot and figure out a way to drive them that works for me.

I found some Jerry Miculek videos and also some videos by a guy calling his technique 'Fist Fire'. Now, maybe this was being taught all along and I didn't hear it, but I found my solution: it's all in the weak hand.

I started experimenting and focusing more on my left hand for recoil control, and my right hand was positioned so that I had perfect trigger control. I rolled my left wrist dramatically forward and locked my wrist so that it was a stationary wall in front of the pistol handle. I was trying to use leverage in front of the pistol, rather than bone mass behind the pistol.

Holy smokes. I can't tell you how happy I was when my M&P 45 started going straight back and then forward again on target! I tried it with all my semi-autos and I was able to do it with consistency.

The downside side is that some instructors may give me a hard time, because my grip is not textbook.

But it works for me and I can shoot any pistol I please, and that's all I care about. My forearm and wrist aren't aligned with the bore of the pistol and I don't care.

[Casual Friday]

Like Chuck stated earlier, hand to handgun fit is important. I have big wide hands and my carry gun is a Sig Pro with the large grip. The large grip allows me to get just the right amount of finger on the trigger all the way through the trigger press. My wife has small slender hands and can't shoot the Sig worth a darn. My S&W SD9VE is much smaller in the grip area, which allows her a much firmer grip and reaching the trigger without shifting her hand further around the grip is possible.

[RJ]

I started experimenting and focusing more on my left hand for recoil control, and my right hand was positioned so that I had perfect trigger control. I rolled my left wrist dramatically forward and locked my wrist so that it was a stationary wall in front of the pistol handle. I was trying to use leverage in front of the pistol, rather than bone mass behind the pistol.

Holy smokes. I can't tell you how happy I was when my M&P 45 started going straight back and then forward again on target! I tried it with all my semi-autos and I was able to do it with consistency.

The downside side is that some instructors may give me a hard time, because my grip is not textbook.

But it works for me and I can shoot any pistol I please, and that's all I care about. My forearm and wrist aren't aligned with the bore of the pistol and I don't care.

I'm also a noob, and funnily enough, I went through a very similar experience recently with my M&P FS9.

I'd been watching a Bob Vogel video about the fundamentals of grip. I also moved my support (right, in my case) hand much farther forward than before, almost cupping the trigger guard.

Mr. Vogel's comments about controlling the pistol "where the bullet comes out" made a lot of sense to me.

[Aray]

At the risk of exposing myself a total novice, I believe that I can relate here.


I have small hands, too. It was very frustrating learning to shoot pistols. My first training experience was a 4 day affair with a 1911 from a less than desirable manufacturer. I was using what I had.

It became very apparent that my finger placement on the trigger was paramount for accuracy. I was really struggling because to guarantee my 1st shot was good meant that my follow-up shot was rushed and thrown low and left. I had to choose between good trigger finger placement, or forearm alignment. Couldn't have both.

The instructors insisted that I used their preferred grip, which they called a modified Weaver.

It just didn't work for me. No matter what, I couldn't make that pistol recoil straight back like I was supposed to. Very frustrating.

Later on, I took a 2 day class from the same people. This time I took an XD Subcompact 9 and a Glock 23. I was experiencing the same problems. I attributed my lack of control to my small hands and the inability to line the pistol up with my forearm.

After taking those 2 classes, I tried numerous different pistols; read tons of info and watched tons of videos, including many from Surf.

I was very discouraged because I wanted to shoot the pistols that I wanted. I didn't want to be limited to the small revolvers, and small semiautomatics that supposedly fit properly.

One day I just decided to hell with it. I'm gonna shoot what I want to shoot and figure out a way to drive them that works for me.

I found some Jerry Miculek videos and also some videos by a guy calling his technique 'Fist Fire'. Now, maybe this was being taught all along and I didn't hear it, but I found my solution: it's all in the weak hand.

I started experimenting and focusing more on my left hand for recoil control, and my right hand was positioned so that I had perfect trigger control. I rolled my left wrist dramatically forward and locked my wrist so that it was a stationary wall in front of the pistol handle. I was trying to use leverage in front of the pistol, rather than bone mass behind the pistol.

Holy smokes. I can't tell you how happy I was when my M&P 45 started going straight back and then forward again on target! I tried it with all my semi-autos and I was able to do it with consistency.

The downside side is that some instructors may give me a hard time, because my grip is not textbook.

But it works for me and I can shoot any pistol I please, and that's all I care about. My forearm and wrist aren't aligned with the bore of the pistol and I don't care.

There are a number of instructors out there who aren't wrapped up with forearm alignment.

[runcible]

On one hand, there is the desire to be as good as one can be; which draws in a range of nuances and esoterica that may not be wholly relevant to most shooters' lot in things.

On the other hand, there is the economy of time to impart sufficient ability to get holes in the right places in the right timeframe.

The latter probably has precedent before the former, though there's no charge for learning things right in the first place, except when the minutiae bog down the main effort.