View Full Version : Colt AR15A4
I have a thing for 20" AR's. I like the way they shoot, look, & feel. So when I discovered Colt had this available, basically a semi auto version of their service rifle sans KAC rail, I snatched it up. I automatically install MagPul trigger guards, grips, & stocks on my AR's, so I opted for the Magpul edition...it was actually substantially cheaper.
Now, the furniture on this model is FDE, which I'm not a huge fan of, but whatever. To my surprise today, when I got the gun, the entire upper & lower were cerakoted in FDE. The gun I ordered was black, but I actually like it so I signed for it. It was a good surprise overall. Pics & a 100yd target to follow.
Suvorov
11-12-2014, 05:45 PM
I think we have been though this before but I also have a soft spot for 20" ARs (or "muskets" as I understand they are called in some circles). Interested to hear how yours shoots. I would love to get me one o those A4 pattern FNs.
I think we have been though this before but I also have a soft spot for 20" ARs (or "muskets" as I understand they are called in some circles). Interested to hear how yours shoots. I would love to get me one o those A4 pattern FNs.
I have one of those on order too.
littlejerry
11-13-2014, 03:06 PM
My only ar today is a colt 20" A2 with a Vltor A5 stock.
I had a serious hankering for a carbine until I changed out the stock. That solved the majority of my problems.
Sometimes I wish there was an easy way to mount an optic. One day I'll get a flat top upper. The rifles just doesn't see much use as is. It gets carried more while hunting than it gets shot.
Suvorov
11-13-2014, 03:26 PM
I have one of those on order too.
Pretty sure that would end my marriage right now. :p
My only ar today is a colt 20" A2 with a Vltor A5 stock.
I had a serious hankering for a carbine until I changed out the stock. That solved the majority of my problems.
Sometimes I wish there was an easy way to mount an optic. One day I'll get a flat top upper. The rifles just doesn't see much use as is. It gets carried more while hunting than it gets shot.
What buffer are you using?
littlejerry
11-13-2014, 04:09 PM
Pretty sure that would end my marriage right now. :p
What buffer are you using?
The standard A5 buffer and spring combo. Don't recall what Vltor puts in the kit.
Works fine. Recoil impulse feels like the rifle buffer. Great upgrade overall. Even the A1 stock felt a bit long at times.
Malamute
11-13-2014, 04:09 PM
My own preference for looks and shooting is the standard A-2 rifles. Not as handy getting in and out of vehicles, but its what I tend towards most when the chance comes up. I'm starting a carbine, but it may eventually morph into a rifle. Where I shoot most (and live), its pretty open, and the majority of my practice and fun shooting is between 300 and 800 yards.
My only ar today is a colt 20" A2 with a Vltor A5 stock....
Sometimes I wish there was an easy way to mount an optic. One day I'll get a flat top upper. The rifles just doesn't see much use as is. It gets carried more while hunting than it gets shot.
I had a flat top Colt H-bar in about '05-'06. I tried several different scope mounts and never found one I really liked, and didnt like the front sight showing up so much when the scope was set to low power, I ended up going back to the ARMS carry handle mount. Its the only one I found that never changed zero with handling when I messed with AR's back in the 1900's. I know theres more mount choices, but that worked well for me and I didn't mind the cheek position too much. The bombproof irons were always attached also.
ReverendMeat
11-13-2014, 11:46 PM
I have a soft spot for a 20" setup (being the only rifle I've ever slept with and all) and have been looking at the Colt. It's between that and a PSA build kit.
Jay Cunningham
11-13-2014, 11:56 PM
They're really nice to shoot. I'm a little perplexed why Colt didn't make them as close to an exact duplicate of the M-16A4 as possible, but that's an age-old argument.
The MagPul fixed rifle stock seems nice.
Suvorov
11-14-2014, 12:42 AM
They're really nice to shoot. I'm a little perplexed why Colt didn't make them as close to an exact duplicate of the M-16A4 as possible, but that's an age-old argument.
Other than a lack of "happy switch" and most likely a semi-auto bolt carrier, what are the differences? :confused:
The MagPul fixed rifle stock seems nice.
They are quite nice! Length of pull seems just right, the trap door storage compartment is well made and generous. I have one for when I want to go "featureless" per Kalifornia law with my carbines. On my A2 that still aspirationally have service rifle matches - I've stuck with the A2 stock per the rules, but if one wasn't married to a GI stock and either didn't want or couldn't have an adjustable stock, the MagPul is a great option.
Jay Cunningham
11-14-2014, 12:48 AM
Some minor weird stuff like ambi safeties.
Some minor weird stuff like ambi safeties.
Mine actually didn't have the ambi safety, which I'm glad.
Other than a lack of "happy switch" and most likely a semi-auto bolt carrier, what are the differences? :confused:
.
They come with the FA Bolt carrier & I love that Magpul stock. It's excellent!
Some minor weird stuff like ambi safeties.
Anything else? I'm curious because I like the idea of owning a Colt AR15A4. Thanks.
Anything else? I'm curious because I like the idea of owning a Colt AR15A4. Thanks.
So far as I can tell, they are only missing the KAC rail & some have the ambi safety....easily replaceable with a single side.
Jay Cunningham
11-16-2014, 07:32 PM
Nothing bad, just odd for what I assumed would be a clone of the M-16A4.
The A4 I'm pretty sure should use an F marked FSB, but I'm told they're going out with non F marked. Also It sounds like they have M4 barrel extensions and feed ramps, which isn't the usual for a 20" rifle.
Yes, no F marked FSB & has M4 extension with feed ramps. I think it's a matter of cost. They make mostly carbines, so they use carbine parts. As long as it works, I'm fine with it.
Itching to get that dang thing out on the range, but the weathers been terrible down here as of late.
Suvorov
11-17-2014, 03:09 PM
Can someone please remind me why a carbine needs feed ramps while a rifle can get by without them?
Jay Cunningham
11-17-2014, 03:12 PM
The feed ramps were part of a fix on the carbines when running balls out auto or burst.
I think. There are probably people here intimately familiar with it!
Chuck Haggard
11-17-2014, 03:16 PM
If someone made an M16a1 semi auto clone with a 1/7 or 1/8 twist barrel I would buy two of them. I always liked those guns, which was handy since I carried one quite a bit.
Maybe make it a flat top, that would be pretty much perfect for a walking around varmint gun.
texasaggie2005
11-17-2014, 04:20 PM
If someone made an M16a1 semi auto clone with a 1/7 or 1/8 twist barrel I would buy two of them. I always liked those guns, which was handy since I carried one quite a bit.
Maybe make it a flat top, that would be pretty much perfect for a walking around varmint gun.
Just saw this WTS/WTT ad this morning on M4Carbine. (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?159808-Colt-AR-15A4-(KAC-M5-RAS-13Mags))
About the F marked FSB, what's better, "F" marked or non-F marked? What's the difference? Quality?
Jay Cunningham
11-17-2014, 09:27 PM
It's not about better. The F marked FSB is supposed to be paired with a flattop upper receiver.
Molon
11-17-2014, 11:06 PM
About the F marked FSB . . . What's the difference?
"F" Marked Front Sight Base
There is no difference in the overall height of an “F” marked front sight base and a standard front sight base. The only difference between the two front sight bases is the height of the sight “shelf” above the top of the barrel.
http://www.box.net/shared/static/uei1uar8kw.jpg
http://www.box.net/shared/static/2d520zm04w.jpg
The front sight post on a standard Colt front sight base will bottom-out in the sight well at approximately 24 clicks below flush. On an “F” marked front sight base the sight “shelf” is a whopping 0.040” higher than on a standard front sight base. That means you might have to turn your front sight post down approximately 6 clicks further with an “F” marked front sight base than on a standard front sight base. (6 whole clicks difference. Oh, the inhumanity!) So unless your front sight post would be set at 18 clicks below flush with a standard front sight base, using an “F” marked front sight base on a 20" barrel will be a non-issue.
.....
Chuck Haggard
11-17-2014, 11:14 PM
Getting Bushampsters zero'd with the BUIS is a PITA due to them not using the F marked front sight assembly.
Chuck Haggard
11-17-2014, 11:15 PM
Just saw this WTS/WTT ad this morning on M4Carbine. (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?159808-Colt-AR-15A4-(KAC-M5-RAS-13Mags))
Thanks, however, I abhor the a2 barrel profile, extra weight for zero in the way of pay-off
Molon
11-17-2014, 11:29 PM
http://www.box.net/shared/static/kc9mgqaqvm.jpg
....
Jay Cunningham
11-18-2014, 06:04 AM
In case there's any misunderstanding, I'm not suggesting that these aren't well-built rifles nor am I suggesting some of these changes are even particularly important.
I'm simply wondering aloud what Colt was thinking when deciding to release an M-16A4 "clone" and then tinkering with it. This gun *should* appeal to collectors and enthusiasts, but these little changes are exactly the kind of thing that drives them batshit crazy.
TR675
11-18-2014, 08:37 AM
Someone said it pretty well on another forum: Colt is run by non-gun guys who don't shoot and don't understand their market.
Colt gets it 90% right 50% of the time. They're building quality guns but aren't sure for whom.
Chuck Haggard
11-18-2014, 09:27 AM
http://www.box.net/shared/static/kc9mgqaqvm.jpg
....
Yup, however, in my experience Bushampster normally sends the guns with the short front sight and doesn't tell anyone about it. You get to make this discovery in the middle of trying to zero, then it's pulling teeth to get the correct sights mailed to you, even when you are an LE agency that just ordered 40 guns.......
Yup, however, in my experience Bushampster normally sends the guns with the short front sight and doesn't tell anyone about it. You get to make this discovery in the middle of trying to zero, then it's pulling teeth to get the correct sights mailed to you, even when you are an LE agency that just ordered 40 guns.......
Who decided it was a good idea to order 1, let alone 40, Bushwackers?
Maple Syrup Actual
11-18-2014, 05:52 PM
But ordering a few dozen radically improves your chances of getting a good one.
Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk
John Hearne
11-18-2014, 06:24 PM
Who decided it was a good idea to order 1, let alone 40, Bushwackers?
Look on the bright side, at least your predecessor didn't decide to convert all of your A2's to "M4-ish" by having Bushmaster rebarrel the rifle uppers (no feed cuts) with their 1/9 barrel that doesn't have a true 5.56 mm chamber and then sell you a cheap four-position commercial receiver extension and stock that was installed without staking. And then everyone gets pissed at you because the guns won't run after being converted to flattop on newly purchased true 5.56 mm ammo or zero properly because the BM supplied front sight isn't tall enough. And just for giggles, the guns were converted to semi-only via a DMPS safety which broke off when function checked.
Here's a hint, "buy all new uppers" is not the correct answer.
Thanks, however, I abhor the a2 barrel profile, extra weight for zero in the way of pay-off
Retro guns are pretty easy to build if you want.
Here's a 607-inspired middy I have. Barrel turned down to .575" below the handgaurds and forward of the gas block (seat is still .75"). Nodak Spud receiver and charging handle. I'm using an A1 grip and substituting the stock with a N1 CAR stock. Waiting to put it all together until I get the lower receiver anodized in XM gray to match the upper.
Oh, the comp is just a generic one from ADCO. I figured I'd go with that, as a flash hider on this rifle would be a no-go in NJ....not to mention the 3 prong wasn't used on the 607, anyway. Of course, the 607 didn't come with a 14.5" middy, either. :cool:
http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q758/Finkerfuggles/607middy_zpsffbea37e.jpg (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/Finkerfuggles/media/607middy_zpsffbea37e.jpg.html)
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/10mm4me/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps44090af2.jpg (http://s865.photobucket.com/user/10mm4me/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps44090af2.jpg.html)
Hopefully can get out to the range this weekend
Jay Cunningham
11-19-2014, 03:25 PM
http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/10mm4me/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps44090af2.jpg (http://s865.photobucket.com/user/10mm4me/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps44090af2.jpg.html)
Hopefully can get out to the range this weekend
That there is nice looking.
Now I just need an optic...prob just slap a PRO on it.
I use to have a rifle but I sold it.
Man do I miss it. Was a lot more fun to shoot at the local range than my 2 carbines.
Enjoy your rifle
Getting Bushampsters zero'd with the BUIS is a PITA due to them not using the F marked front sight assembly.
Do they still use the wrong size FSB ?
I bought 2 bushmasters back in 1999. A Rifle and Carbine. Both had A1 uppers so the FSB was fine. What is funny back then everyone was trading in there Colts for Bushmaster.
Bushmaster was the king at one time. Well until the public could buy a Colt 6920 and compare specs. Colt & LMT became GTG and later BCM. Now its seems everyone offers a AR15.,
Kyle Reese
11-19-2014, 07:58 PM
Very nice looking rifle, WDW.
MSparks909
11-20-2014, 12:14 AM
I have a thing for 20" AR's. I like the way they shoot, look, & feel. So when I discovered Colt had this available, basically a semi auto version of their service rifle sans KAC rail, I snatched it up. I automatically install MagPul trigger guards, grips, & stocks on my AR's, so I opted for the Magpul edition...it was actually substantially cheaper.
Now, the furniture on this model is FDE, which I'm not a huge fan of, but whatever. To my surprise today, when I got the gun, the entire upper & lower were cerakoted in FDE. The gun I ordered was black, but I actually like it so I signed for it. It was a good surprise overall. Pics & a 100yd target to follow.
I wasn't aware Colt was doing a Magpul edition of the AR15A4. If you don't mind me asking, who did you order from?
I wasn't aware Colt was doing a Magpul edition of the AR15A4. If you don't mind me asking, who did you order from?
Budsgunshop.com....use the make an offer feature. I got this for almost $300 off what it listed for.
Got the A4 out to the range today. Wasn't able to take any pics unfortunately. I got 1-1.5" 3 shot groups @ 100 yds with a MagPul rear sight & standard front sight base. I'm satisfied. Prob gonna throw a 1-4x Leupold on it. Very soft shooting rifle. I forgot how easy the rifle length has systems are. I should have my FN A4 in here in by January to do a comparison.
ReverendMeat
12-19-2014, 11:46 PM
Cool man, I have yet to see any of the FN rifles in person so I'm looking forward to a comparison.
DocGKR
12-20-2014, 12:27 AM
Please shoot 10 shot slow fire groups; 3 shots don't reveal ANYTHING about a rifle...
Chuck Haggard
12-20-2014, 03:34 AM
Who decided it was a good idea to order 1, let alone 40, Bushwackers?
Sometimes you have to deal with other people's decisions.
Oh, and "just as good as"...........
Chuck Haggard
12-20-2014, 03:36 AM
Do they still use the wrong size FSB ?
Yes
Wayne Dobbs
12-20-2014, 08:00 AM
There have been epic discussion on Bushwhackers all over the net. Suffice it to say, they are in no way "as good as" any TDP compliant gun. In my travels I see lots of BMs and they're not duty quality rifles. They are for folks who won't shoot them much or for shooting turtles and cans at Granny's farm pond, hence my classification of them and their ilk as "turtle guns".
I want to learn more about the FN A4. I've heard nothing but good things about their barrels but haven't found a lot of info about their complete rifles yet. I've been saving to get back into an AR and the FN is one I'm looking closely at.
I've carried A2's, M4's, and qualified with an A4. The M4's are very handy to carry and make climbing in and out of things a lot less cumbersome. But shooting, and furthermore as a civilian, I think the A4 makes so much more sense.
Some of it might be me getting older but the A4 is so much easier to shoot accurately out to 300 meters. They also feel a lot more balance to me. M4s are awesome for quick in close work. They're not so great at longer ranges, specially when I'm not as quick as I used to be.
I want to learn more about the FN A4. I've heard nothing but good things about their barrels but haven't found a lot of info about their complete rifles yet. I've been saving to get back into an AR and the FN is one I'm looking closely at.
I've carried A2's, M4's, and qualified with an A4. The M4's are very handy to carry and make climbing in and out of things a lot less cumbersome. But shooting, and furthermore as a civilian, I think the A4 makes so much more sense.
Some of it might be me getting older but the A4 is so much easier to shoot accurately out to 300 meters. They also feel a lot more balance to me. M4s are awesome for quick in close work. They're not so great at longer ranges, specially when I'm not as quick as I used to be.
For some reason, not that I care, FN is not currently using their CHF barrels in their rifles & carbines. They do however offer individual CHF barrels for sale, if one was so inclined to install one.
Wayne Dobbs
12-20-2014, 01:55 PM
I heard last week from an industry source that in a big change from original plans, FN's guns are NOT going to be built to TDP standards, but will be another outsourced parts gun. I don't have any confirmation of that, but if somebody is considering them in a serious gun role, I'd ask some very hard and pointed questions and then look even harder. When I saw the gun introduced at SHOT 2014, I was very encouraged, but now, I'm not so sure.
My expectation for this rifle is that it will be about on par with the M&P line....maybe not 100% TDP, but quality nonetheless & "good enough" for my needs. I'm just curious to get one & look it over. If I don't like it, I'll send it on down the river.
I just don't see FN putting out a shoddy product. Plus, it can't be any worse than the DD rifle I briefly owned.
I heard last week from an industry source that in a big change from original plans, FN's guns are NOT going to be built to TDP standards, but will be another outsourced parts gun. I don't have any confirmation of that, but if somebody is considering them in a serious gun role, I'd ask some very hard and pointed questions and then look even harder. When I saw the gun introduced at SHOT 2014, I was very encouraged, but now, I'm not so sure.
I'm going to admit that I don't completely understand the AR TDP. What little I do understand (I think) is that FN can't legally sell a civilian rifle based on the TDP. I thought this was the reason that FN rifles were going to be built in a different facility from the .mil rifles.
As far as that goes, is Colt even able to sell TDP spec rifles to the public? Does it been matter?
Genuinely curious about this. I prefer to buy once. The FN15 and Colt AR15A4 are priced pretty similarly.
Suvorov
12-20-2014, 04:47 PM
For some reason, not that I care, FN is not currently using their CHF barrels in their rifles & carbines. They do however offer individual CHF barrels for sale, if one was so inclined to install one.
Very sad to here this as this will be a deal breaker for me. While I would dig the roll mark, I can't see buying a rifle just to have it re barreled when I can get a BCM upper that is every bit its equal...
Very sad to here this as this will be a deal breaker for me. While I would dig the roll mark, I can't see buying a rifle just to have it re barreled when I can get a BCM upper that is every bit its equal...
Not really a big deal for me. Colt doesn't use CHF barrels either. I don't shoot enough for it to matter either, to be honest.
Suvorov
12-20-2014, 05:55 PM
Not really a big deal for me. Colt doesn't use CHF barrels either. I don't shoot enough for it to matter either, to be honest.
Yeah, but FN CHF barrels are considered mythril in some circles....
elsquid
12-20-2014, 11:18 PM
For some reason, not that I care, FN is not currently using their CHF barrels in their rifles & carbines. They do however offer individual CHF barrels for sale, if one was so inclined to install one.
I don't believe that M16s/M4s have CHF barrels. So if somebody wants a 'milspec' rifle...
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/08/foghorn/a-look-inside-fnms-south-carolina-barrel-shop/
One of the more interesting things about the FNM barrel shop is that while button rifling is cheaper, everything that they make is cold hammer forged by default. The only reason they even have a button rifling process in the factory is that some U.S. military TDPs or “Technical Data Packages,” which outline product specifications, require the process to be used. But given the choice, J-P seems to prefer producing cold hammer forged barrels instead.
-- Michael
ReverendMeat
12-21-2014, 03:09 AM
it can't be any worse than the DD rifle I briefly owned.
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/98/9824f0e9637320de49de4f92a41553e3040593f68703eae2b1 848873b0825d62.jpg
Joke, obviously. As far as the barrels go, do we know if FN is still manufacturing them or if they're sourcing parts out to other companies and slapping their rollmark on the lower? And why is it that for whatever reason they can't manufacture a "TDP" rifle for the civilian market but Colt can?
Wayne Dobbs
12-21-2014, 11:03 AM
I'm going to admit that I don't completely understand the AR TDP. What little I do understand (I think) is that FN can't legally sell a civilian rifle based on the TDP. I thought this was the reason that FN rifles were going to be built in a different facility from the .mil rifles.
As far as that goes, is Colt even able to sell TDP spec rifles to the public? Does it been matter?
Genuinely curious about this. I prefer to buy once. The FN15 and Colt AR15A4 are priced pretty similarly.
FN and Colt both possess legal versions of the TDP. Colt makes all their commercial, military and LE guns to the TDP and it does matter if you're getting a gun for serious/hard use purposes. If it's a toy for shooting turtles and cans, it doesn't matter. There are no constraints in selling a fully compliant gun to the public and in fact there are plenty of reasons to do so, even if it raises the cost of a unit another $250-300 over the cost of the hobby grade guns.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?150908-Colt-AR15A4-and-FN15-Side-by-Side-Picture-Comparison
Here's a link on M4C comparing the FN to the Colt. I found it informative.
FN and Colt both possess legal versions of the TDP. Colt makes all their commercial, military and LE guns to the TDP and it does matter if you're getting a gun for serious/hard use purposes. If it's a toy for shooting turtles and cans, it doesn't matter. There are no constraints in selling a fully compliant gun to the public and in fact there are plenty of reasons to do so, even if it raises the cost of a unit another $250-300 over the cost of the hobby grade guns.
Appreciate the information Wayne.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?150908-Colt-AR15A4-and-FN15-Side-by-Side-Picture-Comparison
Here's a link on M4C comparing the FN to the Colt. I found it informative.
Thanks for the link. From that it sounds like the two rifles are very close.
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