LE Pros; You're Needed in Academia.......

[GardoneVT]

Its a nasty job, but someone has to set the young folks correct about real-life policing.Those on blood pressure meds might want to skip to the end on this one.

For the skeptical, here's a case this morning which prompted this thread. My Criminal Justice class unit is detailing the nature of how jails and corrections centers operate. The topic is highlighted by a TruTV clip of the Calipatria prison riot-after which the professor solicited comment on whether the guards were justified in using lethal force.

Stabbings-Check.
Prison Guards being beaten by gang affiliated innmates-Check.
One correctional officer having his skull stomped open-Check.

How about "F#$K Yes" for 300, Alex.

The blonde two rows down disagreed.

"Well, there was this episode of Cops where one guy had a gun and the cop, you know, used his gun, so he like had a reason to shoot him.At the prison, like, no one had guns except the guards, so like why did they have to shoot one of the innmates? It was just beatings and stabbings...."

While im doing The Facepalm, the professor jumps into the circus....what he said is unfit for repetition here. Is it any wonder the average Joe is so misguided on why police do what they do? We need guys like Chuck Haggard and Nyeti in our colleges , fast.

[DocGKR]

Some of us do teach at institutions of higher learning. Providing factual knowledge is important, but it is hard to open minds that appear closed due to preconceived "feelings" that have no basis in fact...

[Chuck Haggard]

I've taught at the college level a bit, only by riding other folks shirttails, DB wouldn't even be allowed in the building I'm pretty sure..........

[LHS]

DB wouldn't even be allowed in the building I'm pretty sure..........

It's be hilarious to watch, though.

I'd pay cash moneys to watch Super Dave teach a college class.

[David Armstrong]

Contrary to popular belief a fair number of conservative folks do teach in colleges and universities all over the country. While we do tend to not reflect the knee-jerk far-right views (unlike the left, which often tends to go that way) there are numerous former LE, military, and similar out there. The problem, of course, is that our views don't tend to get nearly as much attention as the more radical side of the house.

[John Hearne]

My experience is that academia as a whole is very hostile to folks with real world experience. For instance, very few PhD programs are setup to allow a working professional to participate. They seem to be very insular and like to keep it that way. Keeps those pesky facts away from their theories.

[orionz06]

I'd pay cash moneys to watch Super Dave teach a college class.

Dude.

Let's do a Kickstarter for it.


Contrary to popular belief a fair number of conservative folks do teach in colleges and universities all over the country. While we do tend to not reflect the knee-jerk far-right views (unlike the left, which often tends to go that way) there are numerous former LE, military, and similar out there. The problem, of course, is that our views don't tend to get nearly as much attention as the more radical side of the house.

In my engineering program almost all were conservative. Likely has something to do with thinking being a requirement.

[jlw]

<<<----------------- Teaches political science for one institution; taught criminal justice for another

[Totem Polar]

My experience is that academia as a whole is very hostile to folks with real world experience. For instance, very few PhD programs are setup to allow a working professional to participate. They seem to be very insular and like to keep it that way. Keeps those pesky facts away from their theories.

15th year in the business, here. I would agree wholeheartedly. There are many exceptions scattered around departments, but the exceptions tend to fall away the further up the administrative/decision making ladder you go.

[JV_]

I have a very limited view in to the for-profit college systems, but I've seen a lot of people with real world experience on that side of the fence.

[MichaelD]

In my engineering program almost all were conservative. Likely has something to do with thinking being a requirement.

Funniest thing I've read all day!

[Coyotesfan97]

My first criminal justice class was taught by Dr Hernandez who was a retired Cleveland cop. One of the best classes in four years of the program.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[okie john]

My experience is that academia as a whole is very hostile to folks with real world experience. For instance, very few PhD programs are setup to allow a working professional to participate. They seem to be very insular and like to keep it that way. Keeps those pesky facts away from their theories.

This, a thousand times over.

I worked in academia for a few miserable years. You would not believe the magical thinking that passes for intellectual rigor inside the walls. Full funding for the Faculty Aliveness Committee retreats (yes, they really did have one), but not one cent to rekey the building after dozens of office burglaries.

I had to laugh because crying did no good.


Okie John

[jlw]

Remember, academia is a place of higher learning. It is not a place of higher thinking.

For instance, regional accreditation is superior to national accreditation in general instances, but this may not apply specific programs within an institution involving a specific subject matter accredited by a national body related to that specific subject matter.

The regional accrediting body for my area is the Southern Association for Colleges and Schools (SACS). SACS rule is that in order to teach freshman and sophomore level collegiate classes, the instructor must have a masters degree with at least 18 semester hours of graduate level coursework in the subject area being taught. Upper level classes typically require a terminal degree.

While technical colleges have more wiggle room, colleges and universities have to write justifications to SACS for any variation of the above. I have a Master of Public Administration degree. Public administration is considered a subfield of political science. The institution at which I taught criminal justice wrote just such a justification to allow to teach those courses. They did so based upon my practical experience. The institution for which I teach political science does not do justifications; so, I can only teach political science there.

[John Hearne]

I have a very limited view in to the for-profit college systems, but I've seen a lot of people with real world experience on that side of the fence.

They could be like me with my only option for a PhD being a for-profit. There is one accredited, on-line PhD program in Criminal Justice and they want $54,000 minimum for the experience. The only other option I have is a PhD in Education and that does not excite.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Darn those academics - blah, blah.

Anyway - while PhD jobs are hard to come by - it turns out that there is a good market place for Criminal Justice PhDs. There are 'pros' in academic. David Klinger is one - a prof, ex officer, scholarly author and you see him discussing some reality in the Ferguson situation.

At the Texas A and M branch, there are profs with LE experience teaching.

Be very careful with the for profits - they can be quite the scam.

I apologize for just having a PhD and being interested in the area. BTW, I get a significant number of my undergrad research kids who are interested in LE or forensic careers. Gee, I just showed my class the new version of Ayoob's book - in which yours truly is cited.

Now, that research program has not always been received with open arms for some. But screw 'em. Guess what, in the discussions of gun rights and campus carry - some of the progun conservative folks were remarkably quiet. More socially liberal guess who - opened his big, born in NYC, mouth to the Faculty Senate, President and went to the state Legislature on the invite of the TSRA to testify - as a counter to other antigun faculty. There are quite a few other procarry profs there.

[Chance]

"Well, there was this episode of Cops where one guy had a gun and the cop, you know, used his gun, so he like had a reason to shoot him.At the prison, like, no one had guns except the guards, so like why did they have to shoot one of the innmates? It was just beatings and stabbings...."

You can't rationalize with people like that. What those people need is to take a trial class at an MMA gym: the first time someone mounts them, and they can't get them off, will fix their worldview in a hurry.


In my engineering program almost all were conservative. Likely has something to do with thinking being a requirement.

I have never, ever asked my professors about their political opinions, mostly because I'm worried about losing respect for them.

[David Armstrong]

My experience is that academia as a whole is very hostile to folks with real world experience. For instance, very few PhD programs are setup to allow a working professional to participate. They seem to be very insular and like to keep it that way. Keeps those pesky facts away from their theories.
I'd disagree. My brother and I both have advanced degrees, my daughter recently completed hers and a few other friends and family have a fair amount of experience with academia, and none of us have noticed any unusual hostility to those with real-world experience. Where the hostiliyt usually comes is when "real world" wants to try to argue their experience and belief trumps research and analysis based on hundered or thousands of others. About half of my Masters cohort had real world experience and a number of us were still out there working while attending classes. Same with the Ph.D. program. In fact, for the Ph.D. cohort (12 of us) only one was a pure academic. The rest of us had all worked in some version of the criminal justice system. I have found far more hostility from "the real world" to academia than the reverse, at least in the criminal justice arena.

[trailrunner]

In my engineering program almost all were conservative. Likely has something to do with thinking being a requirement.

I was a bit of an oddball: an engineering major and an art minor.

I had to do some major mental re-calibration going back and forth between my engineering classes and my art classes.

[orionz06]

You mean like making sure you weren't printing?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This is mildly amusing and a take on LEOs in class. Years ago one of my grad psych professors was going the run the famous eye witness experiment in his night psych class. A grad student would run in and shoot him with a starter pistol and run out. The shooter would curse him and then go bang. Then the prof would fall and then jump up. The class would write down what they saw.

However, half the class was Buffalo cops. Nice guys - met from my class in the middle of a blizzard.

Anyone, we debated telling the prof. We grad students didn't really like the shooter - so it gave us pause. But we did the right thing and the experiment was aborted. The wave of SW Model 10s opening up would have been a hoot (sorry to say).

[Dagga Boy]

I LOVE debating the fantasy land folks. With that said, I was hated in my Criminal Justice Program when I was a college student as I was already running on the mega conservative side even then, and reality checking both professors and dope smoking fellow students was my passion......wait, I also found out that the professors were smoking dope too when we were on a special class visitng a bunch of prisons in California.
Anytime, anywhere, but there is not a lot of outreach to LE. Most of the guys we had "teaching" at colleges had no business teaching anybody about law enforcement as they were guys who tended to be parked under a bridge doing college work during their shifts rather than actually doing cop stuff. Same type of guys who call Glaser's "teflon coated cop killer bullets" and want to know if they are going to need any extra clips to do the qualification course...........yea, those guys.

[MD7305]

My college experience in CJ as an undergraduate student consisted of openly-anti police professors ironically teaching people who predominately wanted to be cops...in conjunction with those idiots who think they will learn how to skirt the law. All you guys know them, the toads who you arrest who always say " I'm studying CJ" while we're riding to the detention center. It was hard to swallow as a 22yr old kid who had no experience in LE and no grasp why the public loves to hate cops. 10yrs later, I see it as a good preparation of how society views cops and some of the brainless morons I encounter everyday that don't know what they don't know about my job. When someone asks me about college related to LE I encourage them to get a degree in a field they will enjoy working in when the get tired of LE ruining their lives. Geology, I liked geology. Why didn't I major in Geology?

[Shellback]

Those on blood pressure meds might want to skip to the end on this one...

The blonde two rows down disagreed.

"Well, there was this episode of Cops where one guy had a gun and the cop, you know, used his gun, so he like had a reason to shoot him.At the prison, like, no one had guns except the guards, so like why did they have to shoot one of the innmates? It was just beatings and stabbings...."

While im doing The Facepalm, the professor jumps into the circus....what he said is unfit for repetition here. Is it any wonder the average Joe is so misguided on why police do what they do?

If you're not going to post what the professor said why would someone need their BP meds? It's like a joke without the punchline. Did you bother to correct or debate the blonde you disagreed with?

[Dr. No]

I believe the adage "Those who can't do, teach" would absolutely apply here. Obviously there are exceptions to that, but ....

[John Hearne]

I'd disagree. My brother and I both have advanced degrees, my daughter recently completed hers and a few other friends and family have a fair amount of experience with academia, and none of us have noticed any unusual hostility to those with real-world experience. Where the hostiliyt usually comes is when "real world" wants to try to argue their experience and belief trumps research and analysis based on hundered or thousands of others.

My observation (based on a limited sample size) is that there isn't a lot of middle ground. My wife's CJ program was filled with practitioners and they recruited practitioners to teach. Other departments are very theory based and don't seem to have many practitioners at all.

[David Armstrong]

My observation (based on a limited sample size) is that there isn't a lot of middle ground. My wife's CJ program was filled with practitioners and they recruited practitioners to teach. Other departments are very theory based and don't seem to have many practitioners at all.
IME a lot of that is based on the type of institution. The smaller regional institutions that focus on teaching tend to be very practitioner oriented. The large flagship institutions that focus on research tend to look for theoreticians. That is the core of the situation. The flagships get the most attention and thus most people believe they reflect all levels, while they really don't tend to be representative of anything other than large flagship research institutions.

[David Armstrong]

I believe the adage "Those who can't do, teach" would absolutely apply here. Obviously there are exceptions to that, but ....
There are probably more exceptions to the rule than actually fit into the rule, particularly if you include those that already did and have started a second career.

[SteveK]

Institutional instruction gives a good background for basics but not much for real life experience. You are going to be re-taught in the academy and on the street by the BTDT guys and gals.

[Totem Polar]

I believe the adage "Those who can't do, teach" would absolutely apply here. Obviously there are exceptions to that, but ....

May as well add: those that can do neither proficiently, administrate. Again, plenty of exceptions, but the stereotype probably originates from somewhere within academia.

[Dr. No]

There are probably more exceptions to the rule than actually fit into the rule, particularly if you include those that already did and have started a second career.


Those who already did, can do ... hence they are by definition excepted from that rule. :)

[LSP972]

I would hear that tired old mantra from time to time; usually at an in-service session from a disgruntled individual who either thought he knew everything, didn't want to be there, or both.

On several occasions, it hit me the wrong way, I got up in the face of the utterer, and said, "I teach, and I can. Let's step out to the range; you pick the weapon and the goal. We'll see who can, and who can't."

Funny thing... I never had any takers.

That sort of attitude, which is a lot more prevalent than most non-LE types would believe, was one reason I wasn't sorry to finally leave the trainer environment. Trying to impart skills/knowledge to unappreciative and disinterested people tends to cool one's motivation.

.

[David Armstrong]

Institutional instruction gives a good background for basics but not much for real life experience. You are going to be re-taught in the academy and on the street by the BTDT guys and gals.
That is going to be highly dependent on the institution. Too many folks seem to believe that all college classes are sitting around in a big room listening to some guy wearing a tweed jacket drone on in a monotone. Heck, we have our own firearms training simulator that we use for lots of classes and there is plenty of overlap between some of our classroom lesson plans and the lesson plans we use at the academy. You will get additional training at the academy and on the street, but assuming a good institutional instructor you won't be re-taught, you will just have your initial teaching enhanced.

[David Armstrong]

Those who already did, can do ... hence they are by definition excepted from that rule. :)
But the rule is "those who can't, teach". So when you have so many that can do and also teach it pretty well shows the fallacy of the cliche.

[shooter220]

I taught PoliSci at the Naval Academy for a few years, and now there are a large number of us former junior faculty doing everything but teaching. One is a Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense, one works in the financial sector, one is a big firm attorney, and I am a government contractor. It is funny to watch people leave academia. It is also funny to look at who from my grad school cohorts stayed in it. Many of them couldn't work in any other setting.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Dagga Boy]

I don't recall a single one of my Criminal justice professors at a "real" four year university having a single minute of actually working in the Criminal justice system.........but they did write books about cops and how to do things better.

*On the "real" university........I had a couple Lt.'s who thought they were brilliant and touted their "college degree's" that consisted of sitting around the conference room with a bunch of their co-workers in a buy a degree program one day a week for a year or two and that made them FAR smarter than anyone else. Of course, one was apparantly very sensitive about a certain corporal reminding him when he was using the fact that he had a college degree to prove he was right on an issue, that said corporal actually went to a real university.......things were never the same between us:cool:.

[David Armstrong]

I realize it is sort of the in thing for "real cops" to complain about academia, but I will point out that many of the standard and accepted practices regarding how we do things, many of the most recognized gains in the system, and so on have come out of that academia. FWIW, one of the biggest impediments to improving the criminal justice system has been those folks who argue they know better "because they have been on the streets" as opposed to those who have never been on the streets but have learned from the experience and research of thousands of officers on the streets.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I can think of a couple that have made the jump and are doing good things for us, the community. One is David Klinger, formerly of LAPD and a smaller PD in Washington state, who seems to have focused on the use of force, specifically deadly force. He is on the faculty of the University of Missouri - StL.

The other has specialized in the training side of things. Gregory B Morrison started as a city cop before becoming the Ops Manager at Gunsite and writing The Modern Technique of the Pistol. He's on the faculty of Ball State Univ and has been doing a fair amount of research on training, along with the involvement (or lack thereof) by trainers in the aftermath to what could be improved.

This is one area where it'd be nice to get more of our experienced folks into academia. Hearne's work product is excellent, imagine if he had the time and a research staff behind him.

Have a high school classmate, who's dad and brother-in-law I have worked with in investigations and patrol, who went the academic criminal justice et al route. The guy now has a terminal degree and is repeatedly published on what cops do & why. He's smart and well written but experience is not his strong suite.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

On the way back from the American Society for Criminology meeting. Full of all academics you want. In general, the tenor of most folks is that firearms are a problem in the gun related symposia. However, that is not always true and there were some honest evals of the failure of various popular gun control measures.

There were a fair number of police tech and procedure symposia that seemed reasonable. There were of course rabid antigun well known folks who spout silliness.

I did meet profs, like moi, who have done the gun training exercise. TDI, Insights and others, etc. I did my jury stuff and it went over well. One presenter had an interesting take on NRA's rather simplistic training posture. She argued that it promoted a good guy with a gun interventionist paradigm. I discussed with her that most higher level training was more sophisticated and that evaluation, avoidance, if possible was promoted. I pointed out TX CHL promoted a noninterventionist view if possible. There was a discussion of why manly men refuse to train.

An interesting tidbit was that the Florida stand your ground laws do NOT cover a woman in her home if attacked by an abuser. Some prosecutorial horrors stores on that dimension were related.

One presented on school violence/ rampages pointed out that school training - run,hide,fight was absolutely useless in the VT, Lanza horror show. Yep, in close quarters you might grab the guy but that's luck. Armed folks engendered controversy - basic pro vs antigun. I was told that last year the pro carry vs anti carry school debate almost came to blows.

Some presenter on rampages (criminologists) know nothing about mental health predictions and/or firearms technicalities. Sad - others are right on.

For the UBC debate - If a gun is held by the original owner or sold to an FFL, if it is used in crime - it takes about 12 years for that usage. If the gun is bought at and FFL and sold to a second private party - time to crime was about 5 to 6 years. If true, it won't make some folks happy.

One CA type was discussing how LA county's ammo purchase rules seem to do nothing and no one even know about them! It was funny, she was saying that some in LA thing you can just walk into a store and buy ammo. Horror! You have to get fingerprinted. Where I live, I count about 8 big box stores full of ammo and guns within 5 to 15 minute drives , depending on traffic.

[Totem Polar]

An interesting tidbit was that the Florida stand your ground laws do NOT cover a woman in her home if attacked by an abuser. Some prosecutorial horrors stores on that dimension were related.

I found your whole post compelling, thanks for that. I'd be interested in hearing more about this bit, time permitting.

[John Hearne]

This is one area where it'd be nice to get more of our experienced folks into academia. Hearne's work product is excellent, imagine if he had the time and a research staff behind him.


Thanks for that.

For what it's worth, I already have a potential dissertation including experiments to test the hypotheses. Wanna look at the applicability of Hick's law to the skilled and unskilled in terms of shooting.

I've been waiting five years for the local university to start their PhD program but they've decided to back out so I think the technical term for my position is "screwed."

[iWander]

I would hear that tired old mantra from time to time; usually at an in-service session from a disgruntled individual who either thought he knew everything, didn't want to be there, or both.

On several occasions, it hit me the wrong way, I got up in the face of the utterer, and said, "I teach, and I can. Let's step out to the range; you pick the weapon and the goal. We'll see who can, and who can't."

Funny thing... I never had any takers.

That sort of attitude, which is a lot more prevalent than most non-LE types would believe, was one reason I wasn't sorry to finally leave the trainer environment. Trying to impart skills/knowledge to unappreciative and disinterested people tends to cool one's motivation.

.
Agreed, however I concentrate on those that do want to learn and improve. I set up extra time for them & get the know-it-all's & disinterested out of the way!

Regarding education from someone who hasn't completed their degree but has 18 years road experience, I've found I'm stuck where I am in my career mainly because I don't have a degree.

I'm willing to deal with the uninformed & liberally ignorant if it means I have options on the job...it will be weird going back & being almost twice as old as most of the other students...

[Sensei]

How relivent academia is to real life often depends on the discipline. When it comes to hard sciences and medicine I see very few slackers. Things may be different in the faculty lounges for the departments of English, history, urban studies, etc.

I can tell you that some of the best research on police use of force, particularly involving the safety of Tasers, is coming out of my department at Wake Forest. Bill Bozeman is not a cop, but his research has been a very powerful ally to LE when it comes to providing as many tools as possible to officers.

http://www.wakehealth.edu/News-and-Media/Medical-Experts/Bozeman-William-Pyle.htm

[ToddG]

I know I've mentioned this previously on the forum so I'll just give the short version:

Last year of law school for a criminal justice seminar semester project I covered UOF laws. This was during the Ruby Ridge & Waco investigations so it was very topical. I made arrangements with the DEA to have my class invited down to Quantico to do some Sims at the FBI/DEA Hogan's Alley training area. Half the class and the professor volunteered to go. They were subjected to real "live fire" experiences like Tueller, coming upon a guy pointing his gun at the ground and appearing non-threatening in a closet, etc.

Shortly thereafter I had to present my paper to the whole class. The half that had attended the Sim experience sat on one side of the room, the other half along the opposite side. I basically had nothing to do. As soon as I mentioned a knife-wielder at twenty one feet, the folks who'd opted out of the day at DEA unanimously said such a person wasn't a deadly threat. Then the dozen students who'd gone down to Quantico screamed their heads off at how stupid the ones who'd never "been there done that" were.

The FBI always brought USAO prosecutors who might catch UOF cases down to Quantico and ran them through a few FATS scenarios. Those attorneys always came back with a completely reset brainspace as far as shooting bad guys was concerned.

[David Armstrong]

Agreed, however I concentrate on those that do want to learn and improve. I set up extra time for them & get the know-it-all's & disinterested out of the way!

Regarding education from someone who hasn't completed their degree but has 18 years road experience, I've found I'm stuck where I am in my career mainly because I don't have a degree.

I'm willing to deal with the uninformed & liberally ignorant if it means I have options on the job...it will be weird going back & being almost twice as old as most of the other students...
Maybe not as weird as you think. The "non-traditional student" is now the majority on some campuses, and are certainly a large part of most campuses these days. It is not at all unusual to have 40, 50 and 60 year old students in the classroom.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The local state colleges and universities run full night programs that have the majority being adult students. Being San Antonio, there are quite a few vets and you can get folks asking how depth perception interacted with the night goggles they used in Afghanistan. Or having force recon marines ask about color perception. Some want to talk about knives when they see the Spyderco clip.

Thus, going to school for the adult student is not a problem. A word of advice - you want the degree. If you don't like what the professor says - unless it is wildly bigoted - approach it rationally (after class if need be), pass the test and move on.

Life is pragmatic.

[Dagga Boy]

Somebody just sent a quip to FOX News that its the college professors and politicians who need body cameras on them at all times. Pretty funny and true.....

[TCinVA]

I know I've mentioned this previously on the forum so I'll just give the short version:

Last year of law school for a criminal justice seminar semester project I covered UOF laws. This was during the Ruby Ridge & Waco investigations so it was very topical. I made arrangements with the DEA to have my class invited down to Quantico to do some Sims at the FBI/DEA Hogan's Alley training area. Half the class and the professor volunteered to go. They were subjected to real "live fire" experiences like Tueller, coming upon a guy pointing his gun at the ground and appearing non-threatening in a closet, etc.

Shortly thereafter I had to present my paper to the whole class. The half that had attended the Sim experience sat on one side of the room, the other half along the opposite side. I basically had nothing to do. As soon as I mentioned a knife-wielder at twenty one feet, the folks who'd opted out of the day at DEA unanimously said such a person wasn't a deadly threat. Then the dozen students who'd gone down to Quantico screamed their heads off at how stupid the ones who'd never "been there done that" were.

The FBI always brought USAO prosecutors who might catch UOF cases down to Quantico and ran them through a few FATS scenarios. Those attorneys always came back with a completely reset brainspace as far as shooting bad guys was concerned.

That would be the basis for an excellent blog post, dude...

[MichaelD]

Agreed, however I concentrate on those that do want to learn and improve. I set up extra time for them & get the know-it-all's & disinterested out of the way!

Regarding education from someone who hasn't completed their degree but has 18 years road experience, I've found I'm stuck where I am in my career mainly because I don't have a degree.

I'm willing to deal with the uninformed & liberally ignorant if it means I have options on the job...it will be weird going back & being almost twice as old as most of the other students...

I'm headed back to school in January. I was surprised to see a lot of people older than me (I'm 40) in the student orientation I attended. I really don't think you'd be that out of place.

[ToddG]

That would be the basis for an excellent blog post, dude...

Good idea! I just wish I had some video of it.