AAR: pistol-forum.com Diagnostics Workshop

[Jay Cunningham]

Protective Shooting Concepts
pistol-forum.com Diagnostics Workshop
Nov. 8th, 2014
Beaver Falls, PA

This is the official AAR/Course Review thread for the free PF class conducted in Beaver Falls, PA on November 8th, 2014.

[Rich@CCC]

It was great to meet some P_F members in person!

Thanks to Jay, Ashton, Tim and Dan for a great class today. Very well presented and informative. Being totally unqualified to present any real AAR critique, I'll leave that up to others. I did however take a lot home with me to work with.

Thanks to Stimpee for the Beretta Swag!

[foxj66]

I will chime in.. I enjoyed the class, it was my first formal training.

Thanks Rich and stimpee for the swag.

The class was very informative to me, I learned a lot about my grip and trigger press that I can take back to improve my own practice and dry Fire.

Jay, Ashton, Tim and Dan did a great job running the class!

Thanks for putting this on

Jared

[D.O.A.F.S.]

Wow... what a day I just got home, 8 plus hours of great instruction and almost 10 hours of driving. A long day for sure, but with all the information I took away from the workshop today well worth it. With continued practice, dedication and focus it will certainly help to advance my lacking skills. One nice thing about the long drive home, it allowed me the time to reflect back over the day and actually absorb it better. Jay, Ashton, Tim and Dan I again want to THANK you guys for volunteering your time and putting together such a great curriculum. The fact that you took the extra time to make sure it "made sense" rather then the mentality of "this is how its done now just do it" went along way with me and I'm sure with the other students as well. The little details as well, example... with the grip pushing your elbows out slightly to apply torque to your grip close to the bore axis made a huge difference in control and made getting good hits on target a lot easier. It was also nice to be able meet and put faces to the screen names of the members that I had the pleasure of shooting with today. And lastly a big THANKS to Rich and Steve for the swag. Mark

[HRL]

Want to put this in while still somewhat fresh in my head...what a great experience. Learned so many technique nuances and things to keep in mind on safety. I was definitely the most inexperienced shooter there but Jay, Ashton, Dan, and Tim helped keep me working in my comfort zone. Generous gifts from Rich and Stimpee was icing on the cake. Getting to shoot steel the first time was sweet and just getting personal feedback on my issues was great. Shooting on a timer was very eye opening. It was great to meet everyone and all had awesome input. Very grateful to all who volunteered time and came from all over, looking forward to training with the western pa crew in the future.

Gear: G19 ran great. Glock stock sights need to go ASAP; astigmatism issues plus those huge blocks were wooping me today.

Belt and holster were a real...floppy combo. Rich's holster will be replacing that spongy glock thing immediately.

[Odin Bravo One]

Glad to hear it went well........I had wanted to make it, but alas, work is demanding most of my time, and the family gets what is left over as it is.

Still, I'll keep my eyes a little wider for the next one and make sure Jay and Ash get a love package of parts, accessories, and other goodies to hand out to the membership shooters.

[TumblinDown]

I was sorry I couldn't make it Friday evening to hang with everyone, but the day was a lot of fun! Jay, Ashton, Tim and Dan covered a lot of territory during instruction, including safety, risk-based decision making, body positioning/stance, aiming and sight alignment, grip and trigger control. There wasn't enough time for presentation, but we covered all of the fundamentals in detail. As others have said, it was really good to hear "why" and not just "what" and "how." Most of the time we moved between three positions from 5-25 yards. It was great to be pushed on a timer. Making 5 good shots from 25 yards in 3 seconds was not easy for me.

Discussions and practicing good grip as a foundation for trigger control (probably worthy of a thread all by itself) were particularly detailed and interesting for everyone. Most of us made significant improvements in that area. Aggressively committing to the trigger was an important topic for me. Tim had a great analogy of running the trigger quickly but still under control; he likened it to getting on the accelerator of a car without feeling a sudden, violent lurch as weight transfers. It was more about running the trigger at a consistent speed, rather than accelerating through it. The made a lot of sense to me, and seemed to help avoid disturbing sight alignment. Learning to do that at different speeds based on the difficulty of the shot is my homework. We did a lot of work on the timer to push us along. We started with an exercise at 3yds., moved out further, and eventually started working on steel from ~10yds, going from a ready position to a hit on steel with the timer. IIRC, I made 0.29s with a DA trigger, but nowhere near the best of them... two of the guys were at 0.18s and 0.19s. We finished up shooting individual runs on five steel plates, working on vision and driving the gun. A lot of fun, for sure!!!

Thanks to AlphaSierra for letting me shoot one of his CZs! Different feel for me, but still very nice. I can see why there's all the love... and it was still a stock gun.

Steve with his prototype Beretta was a hit... it will be interesting to see if that gun makes it to production early next year. I only dry-fired it a couple of times, but the DA trigger was pretty nice, although at ~8.5lbs lighter than what I am used to. Lots of guys seemed to be hoping he had stuff in that black case that wouldn't make it back to his office in MD!

Overall, this was really a great time and I hope that we'll have more opportunities for P-F members to get together and do what we all love to do!

[Alpha Sierra]

I'm gonna echo everyone's thanks to Jay, Ashton, Dan and Tim for investing that most important commodity (their time) on us.

Jay's focus on the things that we as armed citizens will find most useful was a welcome change from other training that I've had and something that I think others would do well to follow.

Being only one day, the sharp focus on the fundamentals of trigger control AND the diagnostic tools to take home and work with made the day very, very productive. I've already made some changes based on direct input (thanks Tim, Jay) as well as other nuggets that were directed at others in specific or to the group in general but made me go AHA! For example, I thought I was gripping the gun hard. And I was, just not directing the force of my hands to where it would do the most good. Dry firing today showed me the difference for real and I'm itching to try out some of those changes in live fire tomorrow.

It was a lot of fun putting faces to the names and I think we all want to do this again. Someone mentioned scheduling similar get togethers in different areas of the country and that is definitely an idea worth following through on.

[Jay Cunningham]

Glad to hear it went well........I had wanted to make it, but alas, work is demanding most of my time, and the family gets what is left over as it is.

Still, I'll keep my eyes a little wider for the next one and make sure Jay and Ash get a love package of parts, accessories, and other goodies to hand out to the membership shooters.

I'm still handing out pieces parts from your last love package - thanks again for your generosity!

[Jay Cunningham]

Here's a link to my Dry Practice Misconceptions (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?7708-Dry-Practice-Misconceptions) post. Guys in this weekend's class: now that you've had in depth context on the front end, I think what I wrote here should really resonate with you. Let me know if you have any questions, comments, or concerns.

[stimpee]

This will probably end up being long, since the Engineer in me will take over, but here are my thoughts:

Technical vs Tactical

That is the best way I can characterize the day. The outline for the class spoke of shooting diagnostics and various techniques to improve skills and develop concepts. The class delivered on those promises.

I have taken two previous practical shooting classes, and each had their value in various areas. However this class definitely struck a chord with me, since Jay and Ashton are both engineering types, and their thought process and approach was in tune with the way I learn. As others have mentioned, the class was not a "do it this way" class. It was more about the WHY and the HOW, not necessarily the WHAT.

My shooting experience is still quite limited, and as we got into the timed drills, particularly with the three second drills, the mind-F took over for me. Couple that with my relative inexperience with the DA/SA action of my Beretta, and the challenges of my eyesight once I get out to 25 yards, and I was a bit overwhelmed. However my target spoke a language that the instructors understood, and as we progressed through the class, they were able to diagnose my problems and provide guidance to make corrections.

The fundamentals of grip and trigger control as they were taught in this class ended up being PFM for me. Although I am far from being able to apply the concepts consistently, I was able to clearly know when I screwed up as the hammer dropped, and I knew where I was going to hit before ever looking at the target. This class "disturbed" everything I had been taught to date on how to deal with the DA trigger pull. My first gun, nearly 25 years ago, was a Ruger GP100 revolver. But since getting back into shooting about 4 years ago, I have used striker fired guns almost exclusively until picking up a Beretta 92. I could not believe that by the end of the day, I had shots on steel from the timer in 0.23s with the DA trigger. Frankly amazing to me.

I also enjoyed the conversational and discussion aspects of the class. The discussions on probablistic risk assessment may sound scary, but it is something I deal with regularly, and again it made perfect sense to me. And frankly it provides good fodder for argument when dealing with libtards or other more intelligent people on why I choose to carry a gun.

The other point I think it is important to make, is that although the class was certainly far more technical than my previous experiences, it was also quite understandable and effective. You didn't have to be an engineer to extract the value. That was clear when looking at everyone's targets and listening to their conversations during and after the class. I think everyone walked away with a clear understanding of the concepts, and based on the results on the targets, clear evidence that the concepts worked. You can't beat that. I can't thank Jay, Ashton, Tim and Dan enough for donating their time to provide this training. I had a great time, and would look for opportunity to train with them again. I also enjoyed meeting everyone else. Although I am relatively quiet on the forum, I have started to hang around a bit more frequently, and it was great to meet some people face to face and have the opportunity to hang out with people with similar interests and passions.

Also, many thanks to Rich and Jay for the Kydex goodies and the T-shirt. I think I will wear that T shirt around DC and see what happens!!

Now, I have to unpack my gun case and see what is missing....:eek:

Steve

[Jay Cunningham]

We had 10 shooters and four instructors. The weather was chilly and bright in the morning. It warmed up a bit but the clouds rolled in later; pretty decent weather overall.

I thoroughly enjoyed teaching this class. Experience and skill levels of the shooters varied a bit, but we accommodated all and individual performance seemed to converge as the day went on. All shooters had great attitudes and were safe.

This workshop was highly focused. I wanted to make the biggest impact that I could in a one day format, so we got straight to the point:



general safety brief

risk assessment & mitigation

body alignment

building the grip

ammunition management

aiming

grip as foundation to trigger control

trigger control

seeing what you need to see


We did a fair bit of our shooting at 25 yards which was a good range to really see where the guns were hitting and where the shooters were hitting with the guns. 25 was our "far" range; we also shot at an intermediate range and a close range. The targets were over-sized bullseyes which facilitated development and gathering of data to check for trends and patterns. The par times started generously and worked their way down.

Later in the day we switched to TacStrike 1/4 scale steel targets. We built the bulk of our trigger control on the steel targets with shot timers. We also worked on reaction drills with from the ready position to try and get people to "see" faster than they were used to.

Thanks to Ashton, Dan, and Tim for the huge assist - what a great instructor crew. Thanks to Rich, Steve, and Tom for some cool free stuff and also again to Tom for taking pics with his nice camera.

Finally thanks to Tom Jones for bankrolling dinner and some swag.

I do intend on conducting dedicated PF classes in the future.

[Aray]

Most of the shooty stuff has been covered, so I'd like to comment on the students.

I suspect from some of the comments I heard over the course of the day that most of these guys showed up not really knowing what to expect. This was a forum get together of some sort with sum doods that were going to show them some stuff.

This is actually a pretty fatiguing and focus intensive curriculum that they walked into, and every one of them stepped right up and got serious.

What I'm getting at is the idea that P-F is "for Teachers and Students of the Pistol", and every student demonstrated that they were just that, Students of the Pistol. This is one of a handful of times that I've seen an entire line of shooters that were totally focused and truly putting in the work.

Great work guys, it was my pleasure.

[TCinVA]

Hopefully one of the lessons everyone takes away from this is that you really can accomplish quite a bit in a one day class even with a relatively low round count...IF the course is structured well. You can't teach everything worth knowing in a day, but if the program is set up properly you can teach a few solid foundational concepts and give folks the tools to further develop their skills in that area when they leave.

If this was your first formal firearms training experience you might think that what I just described is common. Trust me: It isn't. It takes a fair bit of teaching experience and a lot of critical thinking to put together a tight program that can accomplish all that...so kudos to Jay, Ashton and Dan for putting such a thing together.

It was good to put some faces to screen names and hopefully give folks a look at the kind of thing we like to be about at PF.

[martinmj]

Wow, what an awesome day! I'm not sure there is much left to say that hasn't already been covered by the rest of the class. I would like to thank Jay, Ashton, Tim and Dan for taking taking time away from their busy schedules to make this day happen. The training was so much more than I expected and more than I think most of us are used to receiving in one day courses. The fact that Jay and company took the time to explain WHY they were teaching a certain method or technique was refreshing. Too often instructors say "do this, because I said so," and leave out "WHY" they are teaching one technique over the other. By explaining the WHY, I believe many in this class had a better grasp of the concepts being taught and therefore a better understanding of how to properly implement the technique or method that was being demonstrated. I know that by understanding the philosophy behind the concepts I now can take the lessons learned home with me and train on what was taught and know when I am carrying out the technique properly.

In addition to the style of instruction, I would like to also commend Jay and company on their ability to run a class that took into consideration various skill levels and backgrounds to make everyone feel comfortable without moving too fast for the less experienced nor moving too slow for those with greater abilities.

It was great to finally put together names with faces...I'm already looking forward to the next opportunity to meet up with folks from P-F and continue to learn!

Finally, I'd like to thank Rich from from Custom Carry Concepts for hooking everyone up with holsters and mag carriers (if you don't have of these you're missing out!), and Steve and Jay for all the awesome swag!

[Jay Cunningham]

http://i.imgur.com/Vr8IaMt.jpg

Target: Black paster in the head. Just how aggressively can we manipulate our triggers and still keep our shots tight? It depends largely upon our grip.

[Jay Cunningham]

http://i.imgur.com/6FD6hpZ.jpg

It's remarkable to see such uniformity in grip, especially considering no one was told to "make your grip look like this". What we did was tell shooters what was important and why, and how to achieve it. The shooter in the foreground (whilst otherwise displaying excellent overall marksmanship throughout the day) was encouraged to lift his chin up and break out of the "turtle"... this can be difficult to deprogram but we got there little by little.

[TCinVA]

Target: Black paster in the head. Just how aggressively can we manipulate our triggers and still keep our shots tight? It depends largely upon our grip.

This is the bit that a lot of folks have never been taught.

The stronger your grip, the more aggressively you can work the trigger and still get a hit. Team that with the understanding of using a "rolling break" (consistent application of pressure to the trigger in a continuous motion) to properly control the trigger and it puts someone way ahead in terms of their shooting skill.

I wish I had learned that in my first training course. Or even the first 1/2 dozen I went to...

[Jay Cunningham]

http://i.imgur.com/z5iwM62.jpg

Seeing what we need to see: how confident are we in our own ability and in the mechanical accuracy of both the gun and the ammunition? How large is the target? How far is the target? Is there a compressed timeframe to shoot it? Do we need a razor sharp focus on our front sight, or just a general awareness of it? What can we get away with and still get the hit?

[Mr_White]

I enjoyed reading everyone's reports. Sounds like a great class, wish I were closer!

[olstyn]

I enjoyed reading everyone's reports. Sounds like a great class, wish I were closer!

Likewise. MN --> PA just wasn't happening, otherwise it would have fit right into my schedule. No question that I could have benefitted greatly from it.

[Jay Cunningham]

I know for a fact that there will be more dedicated PF events in the future.

[olstyn]

Well, if there's ever one that's a touch closer to me (like, say, 1 state away instead of 5), I'll be highly motivated to attend. :)

[Jay Cunningham]

Well, if there's ever one that's a touch closer to me (like, say, 1 state away instead of 5), I'll be highly motivated to attend. :)

Hope to see you!

[orionz06]

Pics finally coming! Had some export issues that still aren't resolved how I would like. If the pics are bright and you want one lemme know and I can individually edit it.


I was gonna give away some stuff but we ran outta daylight.... Using the class list:


carlj73
D.O.A.F.S.
Alpha Sierra
TumblinDown
Rich@CCC
martinmj
stimpee
Sharkman74
foxj66
HRL


Random number generator gave me 4, 1, 4, and 9. The highlighted folks get a free ______. Email me and we'll work it out.

[orionz06]

Full image set (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tomkelley/sets/72157649451490176/)



https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7533/15282210693_6279d8d8bb_c.jpg

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8581/15714360868_b7222d1cd5_c.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7536/15715800859_a9806cbb8f_c.jpg

Small handed people helping small handed people shoot a large handgun...
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8669/15901182602_3805de2555_c.jpg

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8645/15714540450_c5afb3dbe7_c.jpg

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8647/15715796679_c5c2c85daf_c.jpg

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8564/15899861091_f3412f4ba1_c.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7514/15279569674_f9c4f9ae4c_c.jpg

[foxj66]

Pictures look awesome. My unique load was making a fireball.

[C45P312]

Great pictures. Definitely would like to try and make it out the next time y'all do this. Wife has family in mckeesport and elizabethtownship. Don't know if those are the right places lol.

[Jay Cunningham]

Those are close!

[orionz06]

Now is a good time to refresh... Only one person who got a free anything has emailed me.

[HRL]

Finally looked through the pictures, great shots!

[stimpee]

What is that purdy gun that the small handed guy is using?

:cool:

[orionz06]

What is that purdy gun that the small handed guy is using?

:cool:

No one has caught on. I'm a little disappointed.

[HRL]

Was that the m9a3? I wish I had asked to handle it. I remember the earth tone beretta but didn't put it together til now... Wanted a 92g vertec so badly before getting the g19 to start serious training with. Looks like this may have to be a da/sa learning tool down the road. Signed up for the m9a3 newsletter!

[stimpee]

Was that the m9a3? I wish I had asked to handle it. I remember the earth tone beretta but didn't put it together til now... Wanted a 92g vertec so badly before getting the g19 to start serious training with. Looks like this may have to be a da/sa learning tool down the road. Signed up for the m9a3 newsletter!

I can neither confirm nor deny...

:D

[Jay Cunningham]

LOOK AT ME I KNOW A SECRET

lolz

[Aray]

Gold Star for HRL.

[stimpee]

More info:

http://www.beretta.com/en-us/m9a3/