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ST911
11-04-2014, 05:41 PM
Snub interest and discussion has been particularly popular of late, so I offer the following as we deepen our knowledge base and consider our options.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/Revo%20Reload%20Project/revoreloadsetup.jpg

Purpose: Compare the time required to reload and fire 20 rounds from a 5-shot snub revolver using three spare ammunition carry methods.

Start position: 5 fired cases placed in the cylinder, gun held in a two handed firing grip, covering a target placed at 7 yards. Spare ammunition set out on a table top in front of the shooter.

Instructions: On the tone from the shot timer continuously reload from the loader specified (below), firing the ammunition in the cylinder to the designated target zone until 20 total rounds have been fired.

Target: 8”/-0 zone, RGT-1 target (https://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=RGT-1)

Drill 1: Safariland Comp 1 Speed Loader
Loaded: Capacity
Time (1): 34.51, Clean, 1:1.73 sec
Time (2): 31.68, 17/20 hits, 1:1.58 sec

Drill 2: Bianchi Speed Strips
Loaded: 4 strips of 5 rounds each
Time: 52.02, 18/20 hits, 1:2.6 sec

Drill 3: Bianchi Speed Strips
Loaded: 5 strips of 4 rounds each, load to middle four slots
Time: 54.27, 18/20 hits, 1:2.71 sec

Notes and Discussion:

Target size and distance was chosen to prevent artificially rapid fire for the sake of setting up the reload.

Spares carriers (pouches, pockets, etc) were not utilized to prevent giving any reload configuration possible advantage.

20 rounds was the quantity selected as it was the lowest mathematical intersection for the chosen reload configurations.

Reloading via speed loader was ~34% and ~40% faster than the lowest time for any speed strip configuration.

The rate of fire averaged over each string with speed loaders was 1 round every 1.58 and 1.73 seconds. The best speed strip run was 1 round every 2.6 seconds.

For the two speed strip configurations, it took approximately the same amount of time to load and fire the revolver with 4 rounds 5 times, as reloading with 5 rounds 4 times. This is due to the amount of time required to index the speed strip and cylinder to load the remaining fifth round each time. The four round speed strip returns the gun to a firing condition quicker, but with 20% less ammunition. The five round speed strip leaves the gun down longer during reloads, but at full capacity when brought back to target.

Summary: The limited capacity of the snub revolver does not negate its value as life support gear, nor its ability to accurately place rounds on target if the shooter can deliver. It does require an additional layer of deliberate planning and training for keeping it loaded and able to fight. Many shooters will consider concealment and convenience in the choice of reloads, without regard to performance. The information above may be helpful to them.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/Revo%20Reload%20Project/revoreloadtarget.jpg

LSP552
11-04-2014, 06:22 PM
I like my speed strips loaded with 5. I don't use speed loaders because they, for me, defeat the purpose by being bulky. If I'm carrying a speed loader, I feel I can carry a larger gun. When I carry my 642/442 in a pocket or ankle holster, I always have two speed strips in another pocket. If you carry 5 in the speed strip, and time constraints allowed you to only load 2, 4, whatever, you can still do that.

Question for those who load 4 as a default concept; how do you ensure you index a live round on the next pull?

ST911
11-04-2014, 07:01 PM
Question for those who load 4 as a default concept; how do you ensure you index a live round on the next pull?

I don't worry about it. If I've loaded the cylinder 2x2 from a 4-rd strip, and pressed the cylinder back into the window without rotation, I've found I get a good index 50% or more of the time. If I get a click, the next one is GTG. The upside to that in training is that I get an unexpected dry fire opportunity and check my trigger press.

Hizzie
11-04-2014, 07:32 PM
How about the 8 shot tuff strips? Loaded with two rounds, space, two rounds, space, two rounds. Better grip and leverage.

Another variable is Comp I vs JetLoader.

ST911
11-04-2014, 07:46 PM
How about the 8 shot tuff strips? Loaded with two rounds, space, two rounds, space, two rounds. Better grip and leverage.

Another variable is Comp I vs JetLoader.

I don't own any JetLoaders but have used them. They are fast, but big.

I do have a bunch of the 8rd Tuff Strips. 3 staggered pairs would give you the same positive handling as the single 4s, but then require either retaining or abandoning the remaining rounds. Two 4rd strips seems like better time and ammo economy.

SAWBONES
11-04-2014, 08:23 PM
The Safarilland Comp I speedloaders are actually quite sufficiently compact to carry easily on the belt with an optimal carrier, e.g., Matt Del Fatti's SLC-2.

On those relatively uncommon occasions when I actually carry a J frame snub (a 649), I always carry at least one Comp I reload (and sometimes two), and just to cover all the bases, also a speedstrip loaded with 4 rounds (as 2-space-2).

A snub is such an easy CCW sidearm, it's attractive to consider just a having nothing but a speedstrip in the pocket as a reload, though I think it's SUCH a slow reload that I'd rather rely on the Comp I as a primary reloading option.
YMMV.

Malamute
11-04-2014, 08:35 PM
I carry a Safariland loader in the same pocket as the J, to the right of the gun as it sits vertically in the pocket. It rides fine like that in Carhartt pockets. I carry a strip w/6 rds in the watch pocket.

Hizzie
11-04-2014, 10:04 PM
I don't own any JetLoaders but have used them. They are fast, but big.

I do have a bunch of the 8rd Tuff Strips. 3 staggered pairs would give you the same positive handling as the single 4s, but then require either retaining or abandoning the remaining rounds. Two 4rd strips seems like better time and ammo economy.

If you are in a shootout are you really gonna care what happens to the extra round? Bonus would be the technique would transfer readily to standard six shooters.

Try it out and compare times.

Chuck Haggard
11-04-2014, 10:27 PM
I carry the four round strip, but with a space between the two set of two rounds. I find this faster and more sure to grip and index to the chambers.

MGW
11-04-2014, 10:42 PM
This seems like a good time to ask about stocks for J frames that work with speed loaders.

MD7305
11-04-2014, 10:48 PM
I use the Bianchi brand 6rd strips and load 2rds, space, 3rds. I find it easier to load them 2rds at a time but I honestly never considered loading only 4rds, derp! I need to locate some of he 8rd strips too. I tried some of the Speed Loaders but their not so great for pants pockets IMHO but a coat pocket wouldn't be too bad.

Hizzie
11-04-2014, 10:50 PM
This seems like a good time to ask about stocks for J frames that work with speed loaders.

I prefer Centennials if I'm running a S&W Snubby. Only one option. Craig Spegel centennial grips, the ones that go all the way up to the top of the frame.

GJM
11-04-2014, 10:55 PM
If you need to speed reload, as opposed to administratively reload a J frame, the beat feet strategy would be my first choice.

Lester Polfus
11-04-2014, 11:32 PM
Another option is a seven round, tuff products speed strip loaded with two rounds on either end, with a fifth in the center with a gap on either side. The strip is long and can get a little floppy though.

For those of you who carry a speedloader in a pants pocket, have you ever had the rounds come out?

Hizzie
11-04-2014, 11:37 PM
Another option is a seven round, tuff products speed strip loaded with two rounds on either end, with a fifth in the center with a gap on either side. The strip is long and can get a little floppy though.

For those of you who carry a speedloader in a pants pocket, have you ever had the rounds come out?

I ran around the range at the HiTS close quarters handgun class all weekend long with loaders in my pockets with nary an issue. Safariland Comp II's and JetLoaders. I have kept loaders stashed in jacket pockets with the same result.

Purdy Gear makes a "thing" for pocket packing a speedloader. http://www.purdygear.com/images/Accessories/Pocket%20Speedloader1000.jpg

SeriousStudent
11-05-2014, 12:53 AM
I carry the four round strip, but with a space between the two set of two rounds. I find this faster and more sure to grip and index to the chambers.

I have been doing that since you taught it to me. It has worked well in timed drills on the range, and I'm still practicing with it. Thanks again for that tip.

SeriousStudent
11-05-2014, 12:56 AM
This seems like a good time to ask about stocks for J frames that work with speed loaders.

I either use a Crimson Trace laser grip on my J-frames, or a Barami Hip Grip with a Tyler T-Grip adapter.

I do have a Bianchi Lightning Grip on an old .357 Model 60, but they stopped making them eons ago. You would have a lot of trouble finding one.

Mike Pipes
11-05-2014, 05:39 AM
This seems like a good time to ask about stocks for J frames that work with speed loaders.

Gregg I like the Eagle Secret Service grips.They allow speed loader use with no interference and feel great in my hand and are very compact.bybthe way I do carry reloads but I also carry extra j frames.........cya retro

Dagga Boy
11-05-2014, 08:02 AM
Gregg I like the Eagle Secret Service grips.They allow speed loader use with no interference and feel great in my hand and are very compact.bybthe way I do carry reloads but I also carry extra j frames.........cya retro

I honestly believe that Mike's speed-loaders are 5 shot types that actually shoot. Guy has a 5 shots all over him.......it's like the old Bianchi ad. Probably needs to roll hard when he visits HiTech Mike's trailer park. HiTech Mike has fancy polymer guns with red dot sights and "non-permanent housing"..........Retro Mike just carries lots of old school guns. I like them both.

I am still trying to warm up to 5 shots. I tend to forget I have them. In most my normal solution is a fixed blade and 15 round magazine for my primary. Currently, when it comes to speed strips, I use an 8 rounder with 6 rounds for my Model 12, and I am goofing around with the 5 round ones with four for my 5 shots.

MGW
11-05-2014, 10:38 AM
Thanks for the suggestions for stocks. I've been looking at VZ's and Desantis clip grips. I think the Desantis are probably the way to go as they add options. Are they speed loader compatible.

Chuck Haggard
11-05-2014, 11:22 AM
Claude's famous Clip Grip/Tyler T-grip/rubber slip on grip combo has proven for many people to be a winning combo

MGW
11-05-2014, 11:35 AM
Chuck, it looks to me like the Desantis grip plus slip on grip would create the same set up? Just wondering if speed loaders will clear the Desantis grip? I've searched and can't seem to get a solid answer on it.

Chuck Haggard
11-05-2014, 11:39 AM
I'll see if Claude can chime in, he has run that set up and I have not.

Chuck Whitlock
11-05-2014, 11:39 AM
Chuck, it looks to me like the Desantis grip plus slip on grip would create the same set up? Just wondering if speed loaders will clear the Desantis grip? I've searched and can't seem to get a solid answer on it.

Without having one at hand, I would imagine that any clearance issue could be remedied by removing some material. Ayoob used to whittle on Pachmayer rubber grips with a knife until the speedloaders cleared.

MGW
11-05-2014, 11:48 AM
I finally ordered Claude's snub DVD this week. I've decided to carry snub full time but not until my skills are where I want them. I'm not 100% committed to speed loaders yet but want to work both methods until I decide what works best for me. I plan on putting both to the test in some local IDPA matches this winter. Obviously, I won't be out to win just testing under stress.

Heck, maybe I'll drag out dads PPC model 10 set up and actually try to compete once or twice.

Malamute
11-05-2014, 01:24 PM
For those of you who carry a speedloader in a pants pocket, have you ever had the rounds come out?

I have a time or two. One was with an N frame 44 loader, a Comp 1 that started leaking rounds when carried in a split 6 over the belt carrier. I've had an HKS J loader dump the rounds a time or two in the pocket when the knob was accidently twisted somehow, so far the Safarilands haven't dumped rounds other than the N mentioned. They have simply hung up a time or two, both J and N, when a huge amount of force wouldn't release the rounds, then,...would. Nothing obvious was wrong.

Speed loaders seem really simple, and they are, but can have quirks. If they fail at any time, they should be destroyed on the spot is my take on it now.

HKS loaders carried for long periods in a belt carrier can wear the points that hold the rims and lock up when trying to release them (knob wont turn), Had it happen to about 5 of mine over time.

I may be harder on the J loaders than some, I pocket carry one when doing construction work. They can get sawdust, dirt and sand in them. They usually are OK, other than the one that stuck, and the HKS loaders that dumped rounds when the knobs were accidently turned.

Chuck Haggard
11-05-2014, 03:37 PM
Back in the day it was common for a guy to have to break out the sander paper and get to work on grips, even for service sized wheelguns, so that a speedloader would work.

LSP972
11-06-2014, 08:31 AM
Yeah, even when S&W came out with the "speedloader cut" on the Goncalo Alves target stocks, you still needed to remove some wood to prevent snags.

.

Sherman A. House DDS
11-06-2014, 12:12 PM
I have the Werner set-up, as well as the DeSantis clip grips for my Airweight.

The Werner set-up, due to the angle of the, "clip," compared to the DeSantis, was more comfortable, secure and durable for me. My only, "addition," to the excellent system that Claude worked out with that, is that I replaced the slip on Hogue grip with a bunch of thick, evenly spaced rubber bands. Kinda retro, but it IS for a revolver, after all!

LSP972
11-06-2014, 01:43 PM
Rubber bands on one's J or K frame snubby, at the top of the grip frame just beneath the recoil shoulder, were all the rage among plain clothes cops back in the day. They allowed one to carry his piece mexican, without it dropping through your pants and out of the trouser leg.

.

Chuck Haggard
11-06-2014, 01:49 PM
Rubber bands on one's J or K frame snubby, at the top of the grip frame just beneath the recoil shoulder, were all the rage among plain clothes cops back in the day. They allowed one to carry his piece mexican, without it dropping through your pants and out of the trouser leg.

.

Mostly, but sometimes not.

I showed up to help cuff a dude one of our UCs had tried to stop and it ended up in a fight, then on the ground. Our guy's gun ended up sliding out the bottom of his pants leg and then it was a fight over the gun on the ground.

Bad ju-ju


I generally prefer strips of bicycle inner tube to rubber bands.

SeriousStudent
11-06-2014, 09:41 PM
I have the Werner set-up, as well as the DeSantis clip grips for my Airweight.

The Werner set-up, due to the angle of the, "clip," compared to the DeSantis, was more comfortable, secure and durable for me. My only, "addition," to the excellent system that Claude worked out with that, is that I replaced the slip on Hogue grip with a bunch of thick, evenly spaced rubber bands. Kinda retro, but it IS for a revolver, after all!

Nice to see you here, Dr. House. Welcome aboard.

Sherman A. House DDS
11-06-2014, 09:42 PM
Thank you! Glad to be here!


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LSP552
11-06-2014, 09:47 PM
Back in the day it was common for a guy to have to break out the sander paper and get to work on grips, even for service sized wheelguns, so that a speedloader would work.

That makes me feel sooo old.

Chuck Haggard
11-06-2014, 10:22 PM
That makes me feel sooo old.

Me too.

ST911
11-06-2014, 11:10 PM
Back in the day it was common for a guy to have to break out the sander paper and get to work on grips, even for service sized wheelguns, so that a speedloader would work.


That makes me feel sooo old.


Me too.

If it's any consolation, I just did the freezer-and-dremel thing to my new 442's poly stocks. Same concept, different tech.

JR1572
11-06-2014, 11:24 PM
If it's any consolation, I just did the freezer-and-dremel thing to my new 442's poly stocks. Same concept, different tech.

Can you post a picture of what you did? I have the same little beast and I would like to get an idea of what I need to do mine.

Thanks.

JR1572

LSP972
11-07-2014, 08:13 AM
Mostly, but sometimes not.

I showed up to help cuff a dude one of our UCs had tried to stop and it ended up in a fight, then on the ground. Our guy's gun ended up sliding out the bottom of his pants leg and then it was a fight over the gun on the ground.

Bad ju-ju

.

True enough. I didn't say I "condoned" it. In fact, I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I actually carried my issue 2.5" M-66... and those times were in a an old Bianchi belt slide holster. Still got that, come to think of it.

But I'm not seeing what strips of bicycle inner tube do that rubber bands won't.

.

Chuck Haggard
11-07-2014, 09:24 AM
True enough. I didn't say I "condoned" it. In fact, I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I actually carried my issue 2.5" M-66... and those times were in a an old Bianchi belt slide holster. Still got that, come to think of it.

But I'm not seeing what strips of bicycle inner tube do that rubber bands won't.

.

I didn't think that you did.


The bicycle inner tube bits are more sturdy and last quite a bit longer. Also flat black, and thus tactical.....

LSP972
11-07-2014, 01:27 PM
Also flat black, and thus tactical.....

Ah... of course.:D

.

OlongJohnson
11-06-2019, 12:54 PM
Picked this out of the several potentially applicable threads to necro, just because it's the oldest of the ones I read through that came up, and P-F threads should live forever.

If one had a chance to pick up one or more J-frame Jet Loaders at only moderately usurious price, would one bother? Or does the additional bulk of the big Jet Loader knob put them in the "harder to conceal and slower into action than a second J-frame" category?

RevolverRob
11-06-2019, 01:25 PM
Depends on your philosophy. Me? I never pass on extra accessories of any type if I can afford them.

But I’ll say this, in years of carrying J-Frames, since they are pocket or shoulder holster guns for me, I never carry more than a speed strip or two.

Only belt carried guns get speed loaders. And I almost never carry a J-frame on the belt.

Totem Polar
11-06-2019, 01:43 PM
So long as this thread is back, I'll chime in... only because I am a pretty die-hard snobby guy.

On desantis clip grip: these are now a hard no-go for me, thanks to JodyH first pointing out that the medallion screw can come loose and lock up the gun. Forget that. I haven't spent decades in the vociferous online "no-lock S&W" camp just to have some cheap plastic grips come in to do substitute Murphy's law duty.

On reloads: I have at least 2 HKS speedloaders in my pockets anytime I have a 5-shot snub. HKS will clear the common stocks (uncle mikes version of spiegel, OEM J-rubber, and flat panels with a Tyler-T--a combo which gives the best clearance).

As to reload speed, any wheelgun is glacial, relatively speaking. But Js don't have to be any more glacial than a K or GP with HKS.

When I ran ECQC with centennials (one for live, one for sims), SouthNarc even commented that I wasn't slowing things down with the HKS reloads. Plenty else to troubleshoot in an up close environment like that, and reload speed with a snub is not one of them. JMO.

Again, I'm no expert, but I've shot a good amount of J-frame over the last several years, relatively speaking, and that's my observations on spare/reload prep. FWIW.

OlongJohnson
11-06-2019, 03:18 PM
So long as this thread is back, I'll chime in... only because I am a pretty die-hard snobby guy.

Hadn't noticed, but I'll memorialize this just to mess with you later.

CWM11B
11-06-2019, 03:58 PM
How much? I have a few for both K and J frames. I carry one in a JOX pouch when I'm carrying a snub. New they are around 40 bucks IIRC

Correction, just checked, 30 bucks new

Totem Polar
11-06-2019, 08:34 PM
Hadn't noticed, but I'll memorialize this just to mess with you later.

LoL, F’ing autocorrect. Although, that’s certainly true too.

OlongJohnson
11-06-2019, 08:46 PM
Correction, just checked, 30 bucks new

I've managed to round up a decent fleet for J and K frames. I think my average price paid is in the low teens. Haven't seen J's anywhere close to $30 in well over a year of looking.

nalesq
11-06-2019, 09:03 PM
If I’m carrying a snub, it’s usually in a pocket. If I bother carrying a minimal amount of extra ammo, it’s in a DeSantis 2x2x2 carrier, the purpose of which would be able to top off a partially fired cylinder. (I prefer this to using a so-called “speed strip.”) But if I feel like having a speedloader too, then I carry it in a Safariland Split 5 pouch, inverted on my belt, near the gig line. This method conceals pretty well for me, and is much faster and more consistent than trying to fish a loose speedloader out of a pocket. Plus I prefer to carry other useful crap in my remaining side pocket.

Behold:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191107/aabab4457def1dcfefd8da7a7f7990b6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191107/99c7a6de1a6c5083206d2fcfd0bac879.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191107/0e3ca176e6ad479eff964c0af527d797.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191107/6b07a11e7b87675c2aea790b1ffdff6d.jpg


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CWM11B
11-06-2019, 09:11 PM
https://www.pistoleer.com/jetloader/

jetfire
11-07-2019, 05:07 AM
Picked this out of the several potentially applicable threads to necro, just because it's the oldest of the ones I read through that came up, and P-F threads should live forever.

If one had a chance to pick up one or more J-frame Jet Loaders at only moderately usurious price, would one bother? Or does the additional bulk of the big Jet Loader knob put them in the "harder to conceal and slower into action than a second J-frame" category?

Having used both jet loaders and Speed Beez, I'd recommend the readily available Speed Beez instead of the jet loader. I've used Speed Beez to reload relatively quickly on the clock, and have found the loader to be easier to conceal than a Jet loader.

deputyG23
11-08-2019, 08:41 AM
If I’m carrying a snub, it’s usually in a pocket. If I bother carrying a minimal amount of extra ammo, it’s in a DeSantis 2x2x2 carrier, the purpose of which would be able to top off a partially fired cylinder. (I prefer this to using a so-called “speed strip.”) But if I feel like having a speedloader too, then I carry it in a Safariland Split 5 pouch, inverted on my belt, near the gig line. This method conceals pretty well for me, and is much faster and more consistent than trying to fish a loose speedloader out of a pocket. Plus I prefer to carry other useful crap in my remaining side pocket.

Behold:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191107/aabab4457def1dcfefd8da7a7f7990b6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191107/99c7a6de1a6c5083206d2fcfd0bac879.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191107/0e3ca176e6ad479eff964c0af527d797.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191107/6b07a11e7b87675c2aea790b1ffdff6d.jpg


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I have one of the split 5 loader carriers but the belts I use are too thick for it to work. What belt is pictured there?
The 2x2x2 pouch is a necessity for me on the rare occasion I carry wheelguns as primary firearms. It allows me to feed both my K Smith/Ruger GP belt gun and pocket J from the same source. Two speed strips loaded with four rounds each go in the same pocket as the 442.
If VA goes completely dumbass on gun laws next year, these revolvers will probably become my primary EDC whenever I finally retire.

nalesq
11-08-2019, 11:05 AM
I have one of the split 5 loader carriers but the belts I use are too thick for it to work. What belt is pictured there?.

I agree the split 5s don’t work very well with thicker leather gun belts. The belt I’m using is a Graith, which is not being made right now (hopefully only temporarily).


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jandbj
11-08-2019, 03:19 PM
I agree the split 5s don’t work very well with thicker leather gun belts. The belt I’m using is a Graith, which is not being made right now (hopefully only temporarily).


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Graith specialist is back as mastermind tactics: https://www.mastermindtactics.com/shop/specialist-pro. Excellent belts!

Navin Johnson
11-09-2019, 12:20 PM
I don't remember if this was discuss or not. I use speed strips that carry 6 with 4 rounds in them. From the handle I have rounds in 1 2 4 and 5 positions. This way I have a tab to hold it with on either end.

This to me is the fastest speed strip when loading a J.

sparkyfender
11-10-2019, 09:02 AM
I usually carry one speed strip with my Detective Special, 6 rounds in it.

I have the speed loaders and the means to carry them, but I honestly can't see me effectively using those to reload during a time of duress. I am fumble fingered with them even when using them during practice, but I'm sure others can use them more effectively.

BobM
11-10-2019, 11:32 AM
The revolver guy blog recently posted a lengthy comparison of speedloaders available for L and J frame 38/357 revolvers.

deputyG23
11-10-2019, 05:10 PM
I don't remember if this was discuss or not. I use speed strips that carry 6 with 4 rounds in them. From the handle I have rounds in 1 2 4 and 5 positions. This way I have a tab to hold it with on either end.

This to me is the fastest speed strip when loading a J.

Michael de Bethencourt teaches that technique. I have used it for couple of years now and agree.
Trying to get that fifth or sixth round in is just not efficient in my view.

Norville
11-10-2019, 06:44 PM
I ran across this today:

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2019/10/18/mag-load-a-revolver-a-how-to-practice-drill/

Of course I had to try it, and the 3 mags I tried all didn’t seem confidence inspiring.

I go 2 - 3 on 6 round strips. if I have the time I can load all 5, or drop it and go with what I have in there.