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gtmtnbiker98
11-04-2014, 10:24 AM
The Chief and I have been discussing the possibility of retiring the shotgun in favor of focusing solely on patrol carbine and pistol. The 12 ga totally beats our female officers to shreds despite technique and liquidating an inventory item streamlines the inventory and frees up money for additional 5.56 and 9mm ammunition.

In talking around the water cooler, most of the officers are rather anemic to the topic where one seasoned supervisor stated that we are losing a tool. The taking away of the tool caused me to pause. So I'm asking my fellow LE firearms instructors for their input.

What are the other agencies doing? At this point, we are gearing towards the retirement of the shotgun, but I can easily reverse this trend if given enough evidence as to why it isn't a good idea.

Not to be disrespectful, but I ask that only LE and preferably LE firearms instructors respond. Thanks.

nwhpfan
11-04-2014, 10:32 AM
Keep the shotgun because it's versatility. Primarily you can breach with it too. There is little other option for when you have to get into somewhere right now. And you can carry one in your trunk with enough rounds on a sidesaddle.

gtmtnbiker98
11-04-2014, 11:21 AM
Thanks. We are definitely keeping them in inventory, just considering removing them from the cars and annual qualifications. We already have blue guns for less than lethal munitions.

HCM
11-04-2014, 11:28 AM
We still run 14" 870s primarily because we have many of them and they last / can be re- built forever. Two years ago i received some rebuilds based on 1960's vintage wingmasters. That said they are more of a specialized tool. "Gun people" who understand the cycle of operation tend to do better with them IME. The most common issues I see with the 870 is operator error.

Indoors and emergency breaching are our niches for the shotgun. We have been trying to move to 5.56 carbines as our default long gun for some time. We are running Federal Flite control 00 and Winchester foster type slugs.

I've found "non gun" people whose primary exposure to firearms is semi auto pistols vis a LE Academy understand and have greater confidence in the carbine vs the shotgun.

Are you running pump guns or semi autos ?

What ammunition is authorized for the shotgun?

Do you have / will you keep shotguns for Less Lethal ?

Do you currently have enough 5.56 carbines for everyone ? Pool equipment is never optimal but pool shotguns work better than pool rifles.

Are personally owned / agency approved long guns allowed ?

czech6
11-04-2014, 11:32 AM
How old are your shotguns and what are they?

BLR
11-04-2014, 11:34 AM
Thanks. We are definitely keeping them in inventory, just considering removing them from the cars and annual qualifications. We already have blue guns for less than lethal munitions.

*Not a copper*

I'd not into a LOT of houses here in Wilmington with a carbine in favor of a 11-87.

That's just me though.

David Armstrong
11-04-2014, 11:52 AM
Former LE firearms instructor, and I love the shotgun. Unfortunately, very few people are willing to take the time and effort to learn to use the weapon up to its true potential, which has been the problem with it. Given the realities of life I think you can get more officers trained up to par at a lower cost and with less time than if they were using a shotgun, and saving resources does matter. So I think I'd toss it out as a mandatory item, but would argue strongly for leaving it as an optional item for those who wanted it. Given the typical urban environment I think the shotgun is head and shoulders above the carbine for performance, but the operator has to be able to get that level of performance out of it.

41magfan
11-04-2014, 11:59 AM
The SG for the run of the mill guy/gal in uniform isn't much more effective than a rabbit's foot and they would be MUCH better served with a rifle; perhaps even a pistol caliber carbine. Admittedly, there isn't much to choose from in that category of weapons, but I remain convinced that's the niche that needs to be filled as it relates to long-guns for LE.

gtmtnbiker98
11-04-2014, 12:25 PM
The SG for the run of the mill guy/gal in uniform isn't much more effective than a rabbit's foot and they would be MUCH better served with a rifle; perhaps even a pistol caliber carbine. Admittedly, there isn't much to choose from in that category of weapons, but I remain convinced that's the niche that needs to be filled as it relates to long-guns for LE.

That is a perfect summary of our stance. To answer the questions perviously asked, our current shotguns are Mossberg 590A1's and we have a single semi auto Winchester. These shotguns have been in service for an approximate 10-years. The only time they come out of the cars is for annual shotgun qualification or when the car is being serviced.

As for the rifles, yes, we have Aimpoint equipped M4 clones in each vehicle with single point slings attached. The service load is Federal and our training is M193 55gr ball. We have over 40,000 rounds of M193 on hand for training and we are seeking to up the officer's proficiency with both the carbine and pistol. The shotgun is the oddball in the mix and we already have blue guns set aside for our less than lethal munitions.

A final decision won't be made until the end of December. Every officer is currently qualified with the shotgun, but we are considering things as we move forward.

L-2
11-04-2014, 12:47 PM
I'm unfamiliar with Ohio, being in California. If Ohio is a "free" state, meaning the possession restrictions on the rifle are nil, I see the rifle taking the shotgun's place, given enough budget. I haven't done a cost comparison between shotgun and rifle, however. Great factors going for a patrol rifle are: ammo capacity; accuracy at distance; less recoil.

With that said, I love the shotgun for its manual-of-arms simplicity, which is trained & practiced, however. I believe the per unit purchase price can be much less, depending on configuration.

An agency must prepare for various scenarios and likely threats (gear-up for the mission at hand).


Background.
At my agency in California (not a "free" state), we can't buy our own patrol rifle; we can't take an issued rifle home for practice or even cleaning; we can't even transport it in our personal vehicles between offices. Hence, training & practice capability is extremely curtailed. Also, the rifle must stay in issued configuration, which is, currently, no optics, even though we have older 16" Colts with removable carry handles.

Each LEO is issued his/her rifle, depending on assignment. There aren't enough for everybody, so many aren't issued or even trained with the rifle. With the shotgun, we have less restrictions and can buy our own for personal use, but not for work. At least we can then practice with the shotgun, but can't buy a 14" version. There are more weapons-related problems where I work, but perhaps all agencies have their issues.

With that said, some of our employees do have personally-owned rifles in a patrol-ready configuration as some were owned prior to the laws getting so restrictive. Because of all these factors, the rifle can be a great tool, but where I work, it is not.

I forgot to add we're qualified and carry both 00 buck and slugs. Our cars are outfitted with two racks to be able to carry both a shotgun and a rifle. Each car will have a shotgun, but as I said, not everyone will have a rifle. Currently, for the rifle, qualification, and additional training is optional.

gtmtnbiker98
11-04-2014, 12:52 PM
I'm unfamiliar with Ohio, being in California. If Ohio is a "free" state, meaning the possession restrictions on the rifle are nil, I see the rifle taking the shotgun's place, given enough budget. I haven't done a cost comparison between shotgun and rifle, however. Great factors going for a patrol rifle are: ammo capacity; accuracy at distance; less recoil.

With that said, I love the shotgun for its manual-of-arms simplicity, which is trained & practiced, however. I believe the per unit purchase price can be much less, depending on configuration.

An agency must prepare for various scenarios and likely threats (gear-up for the mission at hand).


Background.
At my agency in California (not a "free" state), we can't buy our own patrol rifle; we can't take an issued rifle home for practice or even cleaning; we can't even transport it in our personal vehicles between offices. Hence, training & practice capability is extremely curtailed. Also, the rifle must stay in issued configuration, which is, currently, no optics, even though we have older 16" Colts with removable carry handles.

Each LEO is issued his/her rifle, depending on assignment. There aren't enough for everybody, so many aren't issued or even trained with the rifle. With the shotgun, we have less restrictions and can buy our own for personal use, but not for work. At least we can then practice with the shotgun, but can't buy a 14" version. There are more weapons-related problems where I work, but perhaps all agencies have their issues.

With that said, some of our employees do have personally-owned rifles in a patrol-ready configuration as some were owned prior to the laws getting so restrictive. Because of all these factors, the rifle can be a great tool, but where I work, it is not.

Luckily we are a free state. However, we don't have that many self-motivated officers to actually buy and use personally owned weapons. If it's not issued or freely given, then they won't have anything to do with it. Now, give them the tools and the time - they'll shoot the Hell out of the ammo provided and enjoy the training. Make sense?

hufnagel
11-04-2014, 12:56 PM
You give me an issued weapon and all the ammo I'd want and I'd shoot the hell out of said weapon as well. :D

I think not having at least minimal continued training on shotguns will lead to a moment of "needing and not having" at some point. Can such a program be implemented without high cost?

BobM
11-04-2014, 12:58 PM
As we discussed a little over the weekend we're considering such a move also. We do have a couple cars with dual AR/870 mounts, but most cars just have an AR racked up front. A few officers keep their shotguns in their trunks. I typically get mine out when I know, with enough advance notice, that we may be confronting suspects in a vehicle, (another agency's pursuit coming our way, etc)
One thing we've discussed is limiting the number of officers with access to shotguns, partly to cut down on the training and ammunition load.

While I want to keep mine available I can see where an agency might benefit by diverting those resources into carbine and especially handgun training.

41magfan
11-04-2014, 01:17 PM
Some more of my drivel;

As a point of context for whole discussion of the role of the SG in law enforcement, it’s worth being reminded that the SG was designed as a fowling piece for shooting moving aerial targets and interjecting the gun into any other role is a compromise of sorts. Wacking the barrel off and telling someone to aim it instead of pointing it doesn’t drastically alter that reality.

When I started out in 1979, most factory buckshot loads couldn’t be relied upon to keep the load on target beyond 15 yards, so the SG was a close-range affair by any reasonable standard. Hans Vang addressed that issue way back when, but that custom option was impractical and too expensive to implement with tax dollars.

Most SG’s have a bead sight for shooting shot loads so accuracy with a single load (slug) is unimpressive beyond 25 yards. Putting rifle sights helps a great deal but most agencies still don’t train enough to make slugs viable at their maximum effective range.

Modern loads that much improve shot-load performance (i.e. FliteControl) lead back to the issue of pointing versus aiming. It’s easy to miss at close range with a buckshot load that’s no bigger than your fist so you’re back to that pointing vs aiming thing again.

When small-statured men and women began to inundate the LE profession, the water got real muddy because the LOP on most SG’s did not fit them at all, which compounded the matter of efficiently handling and shooting a long-gun that recoils stiffly. You can shoot a SG reasonably well with a stock that’s too short, but you can’t shoot one that’s too long. So again, a quick and easy fix with tax dollars ain’t doable.

I said all that just to say this; the SG ain’t never been a good fit for general LE use and it certainly isn’t now with many users being smaller with less experience at using firearms.

HCM
11-04-2014, 01:20 PM
If I understand correctly, you have pool shotguns and M4s assigned to each car and shared among whomever is assigned the vehicle on various shifts. If you ditch the shotguns will you be able to provide a carbine for each officer?

Given the info provided, I would ditch the shotguns for general issue and make the available to those who want them via individual issue.

L-2
11-04-2014, 01:21 PM
I like the giving-tools-and-time part. I think with either weapon and training, I'd like to see a trained officer be able to deploy either weapon, whether the department uses a shotgun or rifle, confidently.

Other costs and weapons issues at my department. For regular patrol (not SWAT): The rifles have weapon-lights. The pistols and shotguns do not. A few EOTechs were issued, but have since been re-tasked onto less-lethal launchers.

czech6
11-04-2014, 01:22 PM
The SG for the run of the mill guy/gal in uniform isn't much more effective than a rabbit's foot and they would be MUCH better served with a rifle; perhaps even a pistol caliber carbine. Admittedly, there isn't much to choose from in that category of weapons, but I remain convinced that's the niche that needs to be filled as it relates to long-guns for LE.

That's the attitude I get from a lot of younger officer regarding shotguns, to the extent that they'll go on the street with no long gun, because they don't want to check out a shotgun from the armory. They'll crow about how great that rifle that don't have is, but pass up on a working shotgun. Most officers would be better served with a .223/5.56 rifle, but very few departments have the money for enough quality rifles to go around. In most police shootings a shotgun is more than adequate for the job, and an officer with shotgun is light years ahead of an officer with a pistol. If the choice is between rifle or shotgun, I think a rifle is the obvious choice. If it's between shotgun or just a pistol, shotgun is the obvious choice.

The problem usually starts with inadequate training and the wrong equipment. My department requires a 40 hour class for carrying a rifle. Shotgun "training" in the academy is 4 hour, 50 round module. Most of our shotguns are 4 shot 870p's, with 14" LOP stocks (some speedfeed short stocks in the mix), no lights and no slings. Workable for most officers, but far from ideal. I recently taught a 105lb female officer that she could shoot an 870 standing on one foot, but that was using a 11.5" LOP shotgun and push-pull technique. While she has a hard time with it, at least she's checking out a short stocked 870 everyday.

590A1's are relatively easy to armor/overhaul and keep up with routine maintenance. I see a lot of old shotguns out there that are ticking time bombs. Depending on the gun racks you use (if any) 10 years can do a hell of number on a 590a1's receiver.

It's always a balancing act that'll leave someone unhappy...
-Are your shotguns in good enough shape to leave in service?
-Is your department willing to spend the money to keep them maintained?
-If you get rid of shotguns are you leaving officers without long guns?
-Is your department willing to spend any money to get the shotguns into "fighting" shape?
-Is there any expectation to provide shotgun training?
-If you spend money on shotguns, what's that money being diverted from?

gtmtnbiker98
11-04-2014, 01:25 PM
If I understand correctly, you have pool shotguns and M4s assigned to each car and shared among whomever is assigned the vehicle on various shifts. If you ditch the shotguns will you be able to provide a carbine for each officer?

Given the info provided, I would ditch the shotguns for general issue and make the available to those who want them via individual issue.In our newer vehicles we have dual center mounts that hold both SG and carbine. In our remaining Interceptors we have SG only. We have a pool of weapons so only the car is equipped so the load out is dependent upon the vehicle they are driving. As BobM mentioned previously, other departments are also considering the phase out or retirement of the SG.

Drang
11-04-2014, 02:36 PM
Not a LEO. Dad is retired Detroit PD, though, and we talked issue guns from time to time. I recall asking him why he still carried a Chief's Special, and he said "I'm the Lieutenant, if I need a gun I have plenty of time to grab a shotgun." Still, I remember him coming home from annual quals all black and blue because the LOP on the issue Model 12s (I think, maybe 870s) was too long for him.

Anyway. As mentioned, shotguns are superior to rifles for breaching. They also launch gas rounds, which so far as I know you'd still need a launcher for. (The one time Dad was on TV he was putting several tear gas rounds into a house with a shotgun.) I imagine an actual grenade launcher has more effective projos, but OTOH the "visuals" might be better. Ditto "beanbag" rounds.

SO, FWIW (pretty much $0.00, what with being "just" a tax paying gun nut) I'd say keep the scatterguns as specialty items.

Having dealt with the logistical side of a platoon's load-out in the Army, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with the idea of two long guns in each car; OTOH, that would depend on the agency in question. (A rural county sheriff's department has different needs than a small city.)

secondstoryguy
11-04-2014, 03:04 PM
Shotguns are good for breaching, less lethal and putting down animals that have been hit on the road. Past that, the amount of training that you need to become competent with them(especially pump guns) isn't worth it for most departments IMHO. That being said, I would still keep them around if I had them.

Lon
11-04-2014, 04:12 PM
When I got our patrol rifle program going in 2002, we (Command Staff and instructors) collectively decided to retask our shotguns to a less lethal role. Now, each patrol car has a dual mount between the front seats with a carbine and LL shotgun in them. All of our officers are trained to use the LL shotguns. We have had very good feedback from our officers about the decision. Prior to the patrol rifles, very few Officers would deploy a shotgun on a call. Feeling more confident with their handguns. Especially our smaller statured officers. Now, even our smallest Officer feels confident with their rifle skills and are quick to pull it outta the car. Our training program includes shooting our rifles with iron sights all the way back to 150 yards. Each rifle is equipped with a sling, flashlight, tritium front sight and two 30 rd mags cinched together with 4 more in a Eagle bandoleer available to go with it.

My agency is about the size of yours and we have a limited budget for ammo. I think the money and training time is better spent on rifle vs the shotgun. There's only been one time in the last twelve years where a shotgun was a better choice than the rifle. That was a search warrant our SWAT team did earlier this year where we expected to have to deal with lions, tigers and panthers. For that, the SWAT guys went out and qualified with slugs and used our SGs vs our SBRs.

LSP552
11-04-2014, 04:34 PM
A has-been LE instructor, now retired. For me, the shotgun is better suited to a specialized role instead of general issue. A pump gun is hard to run well with the typical minimum LE training. IMO, for general issue, there isn't anything a shotgun can do that a carbine can't do just as well and there are things that the rifle can do that the shotgun can't. The rifle is just so much more versatile.

Where the shotgun shines is inside the house/close range against unarmored targets. A 14" shotgun with light is about the best non-hostage rescue entry gun you can find. As you know, they also do breeching and less lethal duty. These two roles are best left to dedicated guns so there isn't a ooops moment with the wrong ammo.

Ken

Dagga Boy
11-04-2014, 04:50 PM
A topic near and dear to my heart.

The shotgun is a specialty weapon-period. It is big. It has large ammunition that is hard to handle and manage. I has a lot of recoil, that is amplified by ill fitting stocks and poor technique. They are hard to run indoors where they are most efficient. They suck for smaller statured folks and the non-dedicated. They do not work like most people, especially policy makers think. Sights are usually wrong for the mission. The list goes on..........I made the case at my agency 25 years ago that the AR-15 platform is what you give to everybody and the shotguns should be for specially trained officers. Thus.........a couple decades of being the "Village Idiot".......until they needed a rifle program.

The shotgun is my favorite LE weapon platform and I used the heck out of them.......which doesn't jive with the above. For those "DEDICATED" to them and of the appropriate stature and physicality to run them aggressively, they are a wonderful tool. With Buckshot indoors, they are devastating ballistically and tend not to be very penetrative if they get through their target. Outdoors against vehicles, slug is my load of choice. The key is being on auto-pilot with switching loads, which most officers are not.

Less lethal guns are not one of my big things. They are a separate animal and should be treated as such.

My personal utopia for LE use would be to use carbines (preferably personally owned or individually issued to only one officer) as the primary long gun for every officer. I can teach a monkey to shoot them.......and most cops;). The shotguns should be used by only those who really want them and as a specialized tool that have a dedicated training program for, and those dedicated users should be doing briefing training for the troops and supervisors as to the situations they should be used in and when they are a good fit operationally. A couple of really good officers running the 12 gauges on a shift is far better than a shift full of people who hate them and are not competent with them. Those shotgun specialists should also have "Fighting Shotguns" that are properly set up for the mission. Red dot sights, illumination and stocks and slings appropriate for hunting felons and not little birds. Shooting standards should be high, with a emphasis on gun handling under stress and in confined spaces.


Edited to add......typing at the same time as LSP552......yea, what he said.

gtmtnbiker98
11-04-2014, 05:50 PM
When I got our patrol rifle program going in 2002, we (Command Staff and instructors) collectively decided to retask our shotguns to a less lethal role. Now, each patrol car has a dual mount between the front seats with a carbine and LL shotgun in them. All of our officers are trained to use the LL shotguns. We have had very good feedback from our officers about the decision. Prior to the patrol rifles, very few Officers would deploy a shotgun on a call. Feeling more confident with their handguns. Especially our smaller statured officers. Now, even our smallest Officer feels confident with their rifle skills and are quick to pull it outta the car. Our training program includes shooting our rifles with iron sights all the way back to 150 yards. Each rifle is equipped with a sling, flashlight, tritium front sight and two 30 rd mags cinched together with 4 more in a Eagle bandoleer available to go with it.

My agency is about the size of yours and we have a limited budget for ammo. I think the money and training time is better spent on rifle vs the shotgun. There's only been one time in the last twelve years where a shotgun was a better choice than the rifle. That was a search warrant our SWAT team did earlier this year where we expected to have to deal with lions, tigers and panthers. For that, the SWAT guys went out and qualified with slugs and used our SGs vs our SBRs.
Thanks Lon, I know XPD is a squared away department and this is valued input. I just mounted Aimpoints in all of our rifles a few weeks ago and getting ready for night quals with the Patrol Carbines. Thanks for sharing, dude.

gtmtnbiker98
11-04-2014, 05:54 PM
A topic near and dear to my heart.

The shotgun is a specialty weapon-period. It is big. It has large ammunition that is hard to handle and manage. I has a lot of recoil, that is amplified by ill fitting stocks and poor technique. They are hard to run indoors where they are most efficient. They suck for smaller statured folks and the non-dedicated. They do not work like most people, especially policy makers think. Sights are usually wrong for the mission. The list goes on..........I made the case at my agency 25 years ago that the AR-15 platform is what you give to everybody and the shotguns should be for specially trained officers. Thus.........a couple decades of being the "Village Idiot".......until they needed a rifle program.

The shotgun is my favorite LE weapon platform and I used the heck out of them.......which doesn't jive with the above. For those "DEDICATED" to them and of the appropriate stature and physicality to run them aggressively, they are a wonderful tool. With Buckshot indoors, they are devastating ballistically and tend not to be very penetrative if they get through their target. Outdoors against vehicles, slug is my load of choice. The key is being on auto-pilot with switching loads, which most officers are not.

Less lethal guns are not one of my big things. They are a separate animal and should be treated as such.

My personal utopia for LE use would be to use carbines (preferably personally owned or individually issued to only one officer) as the primary long gun for every officer. I can teach a monkey to shoot them.......and most cops;). The shotguns should be used by only those who really want them and as a specialized tool that have a dedicated training program for, and those dedicated users should be doing briefing training for the troops and supervisors as to the situations they should be used in and when they are a good fit operationally. A couple of really good officers running the 12 gauges on a shift is far better than a shift full of people who hate them and are not competent with them. Those shotgun specialists should also have "Fighting Shotguns" that are properly set up for the mission. Red dot sights, illumination and stocks and slings appropriate for hunting felons and not little birds. Shooting standards should be high, with a emphasis on gun handling under stress and in confined spaces.


Edited to add......typing at the same time as LSP552......yea, what he said.Thanks to both LSP552 and NYETI. This place is by far the best resource for no bullshit info.

Lon
11-04-2014, 05:55 PM
Thanks Lon, I know XPD is a squared away department and this is valued input. I just mounted Aimpoints in all of our rifles a few weeks ago and getting ready for night quals with the Patrol Carbines. Thanks for sharing, dude.

Your welcome. Aimpoints for our rifles on my list of things I'd like to get done soon. Our SWAT SBRs have em. Just need to convince the Dept to spend the money.

gtmtnbiker98
11-04-2014, 06:03 PM
We use the LE Trust fund, since they are used for search warrants. We had to go to Council, but it was rather painless.

L-2
11-04-2014, 06:04 PM
I really liked nyeti's comments!
I like the shotgun, but I know most people won't become expert with it.
I like the rifle, I don't know to what extent of expertise will be developed by a typical patrol officer.
I got to believe fielding an AR-15 style weapons platform department-wide would be expensive.
I like that personally-owned idea (may not be a good solution for Calif. unless laws change here. I know we're talking about Ohio though.).

gtmtnbiker98
11-04-2014, 06:06 PM
I really liked nyeti's comments!
I like the shotgun, but I know most people won't become expert with it.
I like the rifle, I don't know to what extent of expertise will be developed by a typical patrol officer.
I got to believe fielding an AR-15 style weapons platform department-wide would be expensive.
I like that personally-owned idea (may not be a good solution for Calif. unless laws change here. I know we're talking about Ohio though.).
We are allocating 300+ rounds of 5.56 and 250-300 rounds of 9mm per quarter to up our departmental proficiency. Our new Chief is a go getter and receptive to training! Plus, he's a gun guy and helps me setup the range.

DocGKR
11-04-2014, 06:18 PM
My comments about 12 ga. echo Nyeti's above, as outlined here: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4340-12-gauge-shotgun-loads-for-LE-duty-use and here: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4334-Home-Defense-Long-Guns.

Shotguns are indeed a misunderstood specialty tool, but one that should not be eliminated lightly. Does your agency have public transit vehicles? In Santa Clara Valley, the only projectiles that were able to defeat the thick triple laminated windshields on public transit buses and light rail were bonded .308 TBBC rifle rounds and 12 ga. Brenneke slugs. Is there any potential for a large animal to cause problems in town, for example from a rural area nearby or from a zoo? Ask the SFPD officers how they felt about having a tiger on the loose a few years ago; shotguns are good tools in such a situation. Does your agency perform a lot of felony car stops? CHP discovered that fragmenting .223 bullets leave a lot to be desired against vehicles in their highly publicized 2010 shooting in Oakland; nothing penetrates vehicles better than a quality shotgun slug like a Brenneke (not soft Foster slugs).

Law enforcement 12 ga. shotguns using buckshot of #1 or larger size offer greater close range physiological incapacitation potential than virtually any other commonly used shoulder fired weapon-- this can be a significant advantage during urban entry missions and high risk warrant service in closely confined settings. Should the need arise to stop fast moving targets at close range, like aggressive dogs that could not be deterred through less lethal alternatives, 12 gauge buckshot of #1 shot or larger is the optimal ammunition choice. Keep in mind that buckshot, especially frangible types such as Hevishot, have less ricochet risk than shotgun slugs, as well as handgun and rifle projectiles when fired at objects close to the ground, such as charging dogs. Shotguns loaded with good quality deep penetrating slugs like Brenneke or the Federal Truball Deep Penetrator (PB127 DPRS) are able to defeat intermediate barriers better than handguns, SMG’s, handgun caliber carbines, & . 223/5.56mm carbines--this particularly includes defeating laminated automobile and transit vehicle windshields. They are also the best option for defense against large U.S. predators like brown bears. Slugs create very large wounds in soft tissue and easily crush through bones, similar to the devastating injuries documented with the large caliber muskets in the Civil War.

Trooper224
11-04-2014, 06:26 PM
Our troops are personally issued both shotgun and carbine. Several years ago, when we transitioned to the M4 from the Mini-14, the suggestion was made by the bean counters to get rid of the shotgun. Our folks overwhelming responded with a "hell no!" It's one more tool in the tool box and going to work with a full box is always preferable. The carbine is a great tool for the common denominator but in certain circumstances nothing beats the shotgun. Most of our work takes place around vehicles and nothing surpasses a shotgun slug when they need to be perforated. Our shotguns are the only weapon in our inventory that still relies on iron sights alone, that's the only thing I'd like to change. It's the least favorite weapon when it comes time for qualification, but see my signature line for my opinion on that. If the choice has to be made between either carbine or shotgun than the carbine is the obvious choice, but don't arbitrarily ditch the shotty if you can avoid it. There are times and places where nothing else will do.

Lon
11-04-2014, 08:07 PM
I agree wholeheartedly that the shotgun is an extremely effective weapon with the right person and the right ammo for the situation. When I worked narcotics, I asked for and received permission to have one of the SWAT SBS's assigned to me. It was stoked with 1 oz. slugs most of the time since we were doing a lot of hand to hand deals in and around cars and I knew it would do what I need it to do.

For my agency, the philosophy behind the decision then and now was essentially that we had/have limited resources and we needed to prioritize. In a perfect world, all my guys/gals would be the best gunfighters in Ohio with a pistol/rifle/shotgun and we would have the time and money to get everyone to that skill level. In the real world, we looked at our resources and decided that keeping the shotguns in the cars loaded with buckshot/slugs and the requisite amount of training/ammo costs would negatively affect the training program overall. Given the choice between the rifle and the shotgun 90+% of the Dept. would grab the rifle for use in any given situation because they were more comfortable, and hence more confident, in their skills with the rifle. I/we could force everyone to qualify with the shotgun and perform to a certain standard on the range. I/we cannot force them to choose the shotgun over the rifle when it comes time to needing a long gun on the street. So we decided to spend the extra money and time we would have used for the shotgun and devote it to the rifle and the pistol instead.

The search warrant I mentioned earlier was with a nutjob who loves large felines and other exotic animals. The last time I dealt with him (@1996), he had a Bengal tiger, a leopard, a black panther, a bear ,(which I watched get killed by the tiger) an ostrich and 13 pit bulls in his barn. He lived in the barn with them. The cats had their own cages/runs. Oh yeah, his favorite lion which had died recently was in a crypt in the barn as well. So when I heard we were going back, all my SWAT guys got taken to the range and qualified with slugs on our shotguns so bad something useful to put the cats down if necessary. Fortunately, it didn't work out that way. Right tool, right job. But that was an extremely rare situation for us.

KevH
11-05-2014, 01:13 AM
I can't say it any better than nyeti did.

Keep mounts in the cars for them. Keep them available.

We no longer mandate a long gun in the car. Everyone stays qualified on the 870. Select people have AR's or MP5's issued to them. You want to carry a long gun cool. You don't that's fine too. It's worked out that the people I would want armed with a long gun have them and the people that wouldn't take them out of the car ever anyway don't have them.

The 12 gauge shotgun is and probably will always remain my favorite LE gun.

BLR
11-05-2014, 06:42 AM
Some more of my drivel;

As a point of context for whole discussion of the role of the SG in law enforcement, it’s worth being reminded that the SG was designed as a fowling piece for shooting moving aerial targets and interjecting the gun into any other role is a compromise of sorts. Wacking the barrel off and telling someone to aim it instead of pointing it doesn’t drastically alter that reality.

When I started out in 1979, most factory buckshot loads couldn’t be relied upon to keep the load on target beyond 15 yards, so the SG was a close-range affair by any reasonable standard. Hans Vang addressed that issue way back when, but that custom option was impractical and too expensive to implement with tax dollars.

Most SG’s have a bead sight for shooting shot loads so accuracy with a single load (slug) is unimpressive beyond 25 yards. Putting rifle sights helps a great deal but most agencies still don’t train enough to make slugs viable at their maximum effective range.

Modern loads that much improve shot-load performance (i.e. FliteControl) lead back to the issue of pointing versus aiming. It’s easy to miss at close range with a buckshot load that’s no bigger than your fist so you’re back to that pointing vs aiming thing again.

When small-statured men and women began to inundate the LE profession, the water got real muddy because the LOP on most SG’s did not fit them at all, which compounded the matter of efficiently handling and shooting a long-gun that recoils stiffly. You can shoot a SG reasonably well with a stock that’s too short, but you can’t shoot one that’s too long. So again, a quick and easy fix with tax dollars ain’t doable.

I said all that just to say this; the SG ain’t never been a good fit for general LE use and it certainly isn’t now with many users being smaller with less experience at using firearms.
I'd suggest the fowling piece/compromise part is incorrect.

Think grape shot from cannons.

Dagga Boy
11-05-2014, 07:55 AM
I can't say it any better than nyeti did.

Keep mounts in the cars for them. Keep them available.

We no longer mandate a long gun in the car. Everyone stays qualified on the 870. Select people have AR's or MP5's issued to them. You want to carry a long gun cool. You don't that's fine too. It's worked out that the people I would want armed with a long gun have them and the people that wouldn't take them out of the car ever anyway don't have them.

The 12 gauge shotgun is and probably will always remain my favorite LE gun.

In regards to the MP-5..........truthfully, they and similar guns are really good for many LEO's. I have said since I saw them that I would love to see a HK MP7 based gun in a pistol cartridge for a domestic L/E gun. Yea, I know......rifles, ballistics...etc. Folks need to realize that we have a ton of folks in LE that have no business being their in regards to firearms use. Then we double down with many agencies shying away from military folks out of stupid fears of the PTSD boogeyman (could be a new thread) and you have issues with a bunch of this stuff and administrations who really don't want to invest anything but the bare minimum in firearms training.

Chuck Whitlock
11-05-2014, 01:31 PM
So I think I'd toss it out as a mandatory item, but would argue strongly for leaving it as an optional item for those who wanted it.



My personal utopia for LE use would be to use carbines (preferably personally owned or individually issued to only one officer) as the primary long gun for every officer.

The shotguns should be used by only those who really want them and as a specialized tool that have a dedicated training program for, and those dedicated users should be doing briefing training for the troops and supervisors as to the situations they should be used in and when they are a good fit operationally.

A couple of really good officers running the 12 gauges on a shift is far better than a shift full of people who hate them and are not competent with them. Those shotgun specialists should also have "Fighting Shotguns" that are properly set up for the mission. Red dot sights, illumination and stocks and slings appropriate for hunting felons and not little birds. Shooting standards should be high, with a emphasis on gun handling under stress and in confined spaces.


Thanks. We are definitely keeping them in inventory, just considering removing them from the cars and annual qualifications. We already have blue guns for less than lethal munitions.

Since they aren't being sold off to fund rifles/ammo, I heartily agree with the above quotes.

jnc36rcpd
11-06-2014, 03:55 AM
I agree with the thought that, in an ideal world, we would be trained to proficiency with pistol, shotgun, and rifles. Of course, we know this is not a perfect world. If time or financial constraints force a choice of one long gun or another, I would choose the rifle. It doesn't do everything quite as well as the shotgun, but the rifle is no slouch on most missions best suited for slide guns (or their semi-auto equivalent). Granted, buckshot or a slug will penetrate a car better than my .223 rifle, but my rifle allows more hitting potential when I can see the threat.

If you want officers to actually deploy with shotguns, I do think they need to be more user-friendly. For many years, I rolled with a plain-Jane 870 with no light or sling and a four round magazine. At a minimum, I would suggest that a shotgun have a magazine extension, white light, sling, and some type of side-saddle. I would also suggest that we provide more training than the annual Q course with the shotty.

Beat Trash
11-06-2014, 10:17 AM
We maintain a shotgun in each vehicle. Currently only about 25% of the officers are Patrol Rifle trained. The less lethal have been pulled and are SWAT only when the manufacture of the rounds re-vamped their statements about the lethality of the ammunition if a core body hit were to occur. Plus the agency got hit hard with a civil law suit during the riots of 2001 when a LL hit someone in the throat.

The idea of training the entire department with the Patrol Rifle and dumping the shotguns looked like it might happen last year. It was researched and venders were sought who would trade used shotguns for new rifles. But the cost of training and qualifying the entire agency with the rifle was the stopping point with the senior command staff. Plus the senior command staff were resistant to Patrol Rifles in general. (Different generations, different ideas of what;s needed outside the realm of SWAT).

The push is to now made the best out of what we have. Duty ammo for shotgun is switching from Winchester reduced recon 00 buck to the Federal flight control 00 loading. Amazing to see how much effective range this adds.

We have slugs, but they are NOT readily available to those in the field. (Don't ask...) Weapon lights and slings are being researched for shotguns and may become a reality.

If I were King for a day, or Chief, I would keep a few shotguns for specialized usage by SWAT (Breaching and LL), but replace the shotgun in the filed with a Patrol Rifle.

But my ideal world and reality don't always mesh...

From a personal level, i am comfortable using a 870 for defense of my home. Been using one for over 30 years, in some fashion. But the problem is I remarried two years ago. My wife is new to shooting, about 5'6" and slim. The shotgun is a no-go for her at the moment. But she can shoot the crap out of the AR I have set up for her. So I keep weapons available for home defense that SHE is comfortable and has trained on. (AR and an M&P9)

I think this gearing to the "weakest link" philosophy has to apply to Law Enforcement also. Training time and budgets are finite. A hard fact of life that just be taken into account.

jlw
11-06-2014, 10:52 AM
My previous agency went from not having any long guns in the patrol cars when I started to corporals having shotguns to every patrol car having a shotgun. Then after the Virginia Tech incident, an AR15 was put in every patrol car. The personnel quickly adapted to shooting the rifles, but they hated shooting the shotguns. The administration made the decision to make the shotguns less-lethal only ( this took place after I left the agency).

As for rifles assigned to the cars and not individual officers, I personally experienced the sights on the rifle being wanked to the point that the rifle was shooting considerably left at 50 yards. For that reason, I determined that I would grab the shotgun in situations where I needed a long gun.

At my current agency, the Sheriff and my predecessor as Chief Deputy are rifle guys and mandated patrol rifles with shotguns being optional. I'm a shotgun guy, and as a shotgun guy and lead firearms instructor, I'm trying to breath a little life into shotgun use around here, but the preference for the rifle among the personnel is extremely high. I'm not going to try to change that. I'm simply going to try to demonstrate the usefulness of the shotgun and offer training for it.

With all of the above being written and as a shotgun guy, if a shotgun isn't going to have ghost rings or rifle sights, and if the ammo selection isn't going to include slugs, then even I am going to choose a rifle.

iWander
11-06-2014, 12:46 PM
We have shotguns and LESO supplied M16s (reduced to semi only) in every car. Our Crown Vics have shotgun racks up front & rifles in trunk vaults & the Tahoes have racks for both up front.

The shotguns are Scatter Technologies 870s that were built by our other armorer about 20 years ago. We're restricted to 00 buck, no slugs, & they all have ghost ring sights & slings. All our officers shoot them very well & we teach them the shotgun is still a viable tool. It's primary purpose though is for dispatching injured deer as our city probably has more white tail than people.

We slowly obtained rifles about 12 ago after one of our officers was shot during a domestic & pursuit. Rifle training went from optional to mandatory with the new chief & we supplement training with 22lr kits to allow more trigger time.

The rifle is our primary go to long gun for hot calls, but we remind them the shotgun is sometimes still a weapon of choice, & I run scenarios to reflect it. An AR platform would rarely if ever be appropriate for deer in our jurisdiction, and our Sigs aren't nearly as effective as the 870s. I know of other local agencies that have completely removed them from the cars & I think that's a major mistake. NEVER take away a tool from your officers unless the tool itself ineffective or unusable. The shotgun is neither.

JB326
11-08-2014, 10:24 PM
We were issued patrol rifles in 2005, and around 2007 all shotguns were taken up, stocks were painted orange, and they were then re-issued as "less lethal launchers".
Outside of Tac, no lethal shotgun ammunition is allowed to be possessed, but the only thing we use them for in the tac unit is breaching.

We were only allowed to use slugs when we were still using them as "shotguns", so they were pretty much useless after we got rifles. No one seems to miss having the shotgun capability in the least, and we would turn in the "less lethal launchers" if given the chance too.

(With my agency since 2004, Instructor since 2010)

rathos
11-08-2014, 11:38 PM
We completely disallowed shotguns two years ago and stopped issuing them and ammo 5 years prior to that. The only folks that still have any shotguns are breachers and they have old pistol gripped mossberg 500s. Basically our firearms cadre (prior to me joining) decided that the shotgun does nothing that a carbine wouldn't do besides breach and the only people that were breachers are swat. Due to the recoil of a 12 gauge and the fact that it is hard enough to get people to practice they decided it was less liability for line troops to carry a carbine that is a lot easier to control than a shotgun and only puts out one projectile with each pull of the trigger rather than 9 with the buckshot that was authorized. Rumor has it that shotguns might be making a comeback but that they would have to have some form of rifle sights. I think really it all depends on what our new sheriff wants.

stinx
11-18-2014, 07:14 PM
I am my agency's fire arms instructor. I too am in this dilemma. We currently have 10 M-4 type riffles on the street,5 colts and 5 crapmasters. The Bushmasters are being phased out in 2015 to be replaced with Colts. all rifles have an Eotech, BUIS, single point slings and surefire M-500 lights. We also have 8 Benelli M-2s equipped with Surefire forends. Our issue load for the shotgun is slug. In my place the only time a shotgun is taken is when a rifle is not available. Rifles are usually always available unless its a range week. My chief wants to ditch them. I would like to keep the shotguns, but only if I could get more time to train with them. Officers get roughly 8 hours a year on the rifles and about 2 hours on the shotgun. 2 hours to me is not enough and I would rather dump the shotgun and give the guys/gals 10 hours of rifle. YMMV

gtmtnbiker98
11-18-2014, 07:56 PM
I am my agency's fire arms instructor. I too am in this dilemma. We currently have 10 M-4 type riffles on the street,5 colts and 5 crapmasters. The Bushmasters are being phased out in 2015 to be replaced with Colts. all rifles have an Eotech, BUIS, single point slings and surefire M-500 lights. We also have 8 Benelli M-2s equipped with Surefire forends. Our issue load for the shotgun is slug. In my place the only time a shotgun is taken is when a rifle is not available. Rifles are usually always available unless its a range week. My chief wants to ditch them. I would like to keep the shotguns, but only if I could get more time to train with them. Officers get roughly 8 hours a year on the rifles and about 2 hours on the shotgun. 2 hours to me is not enough and I would rather dump the shotgun and give the guys/gals 10 hours of rifle. YMMV
We just had out quarterly training on the 14th. I get the officers for 3-hrs per quarter with practically unlimited ammo for that 3-hrs. We focused on the carbine and had to also do our annual patrol rifle quals. I opted to do this during night fire, since we've had little exposure with low light shooting during the last several years. OPOTA dropped the low light requirements, a few years ago.

We just mounted Aimpoints and my main focus was teaching offsets, running the irons and shooting the tube when the dot fails. The officers really enjoyed the training, despite the 15-degree range temperature. With the new cruiser purchases (Interceptors) I am pushing to get the long guns mounted in the back storage compartment instead of between the seats or overhead. OSP mounts their rifles on a cross bar in the trunk and I love this setup, but we are going back to Ford.

John Hearne
11-18-2014, 08:42 PM
I am pushing to get the long guns mounted in the back storage compartment instead of between the seats or overhead. OSP mounts their rifles on a cross bar in the trunk and I love this setup, but we are going back to Ford.

A lessons learned from one of our officer murders was that long guns need to be up front. I can see the wisdom of keeping one long gun in the trunk but I like to be able to access the long gun and have it out of the lock on the way to a call. We are running Chargers and Utilities with dual vertical gun locks between the seats.

gtmtnbiker98
11-18-2014, 08:48 PM
A lessons learned from one of our officer murders was that long guns need to be up front. I can see the wisdom of keeping one long gun in the trunk but I like to be able to access the long gun and have it out of the lock on the way to a call. We are running Chargers and Utilities with dual vertical gun locks between the seats.
My reasoning is during the retrieval, leaning into the car, disengaging the release and wrestling the gun out. To me, that's making us vulnerable compared to being in the trunk. Thoughts?

BobM
11-18-2014, 09:08 PM
Mine's racked overhead. I can pop the release and have it my lap as I pull up and get out of the car with it charged and ready. Come over some time and I could show you.

gtmtnbiker98
11-18-2014, 09:12 PM
But how many get out with the rifle? My concern is needing to get back and then retrieving. I've been doing this since 1996 with a badge and can recall one time getting out of the car with the shotgun in hand. Any other time, we have to run and retrieve. This is my concern, the vulnerability of exposing your back side while retrieving.

I seen a Post 14 troopers setup and am convinced, it's the ideal setup.

Lon
11-18-2014, 09:25 PM
My reasoning is during the retrieval, leaning into the car, disengaging the release and wrestling the gun out. To me, that's making us vulnerable compared to being in the trunk. Thoughts?

Ours are set up and we train so that when the officer exits the car, the rifle or shotgun comes out with them. There's no need to reach back in.

John Hearne
11-18-2014, 09:25 PM
My reasoning is during the retrieval, leaning into the car, disengaging the release and wrestling the gun out. To me, that's making us vulnerable compared to being in the trunk. Thoughts?

The gun shouldn't be that hard to get out. My 14" 870 sits nicely across my lap and it can get there from the lock while going down the road. My 16" AR is slightly less convenient but still doable. The old overheads were great for this as well as the gun "flowed" out of the car very naturally.

I don't recall who it was but one of the first heavy deployments of patrol rifles in California used all 11.5" guns. The idea was that the officers could sling up in the car and step out ready to go. After playing with an 11.5" gun in and around a vehicle, I get it. An 11.5" AR is reasonably a 100 yard carbine but A RELIABLE ONE is more than enough for almost any urban police scenario.

Long gun deployment is a very proactive activity. Any form of "go back and get it" is going to be sub-optimal compared to stepping out with it. Folks need to be thinking who's deploying the long gun on the way to the call, not IF we should deploy one. I'm a bit famous for calling "dibs" in this department. I have a drop leg rig with two spare magazines and I've been able to get it clipped on (without straps around the leg yet) and have a rifle in my hands when I step out.

Lon
11-18-2014, 09:25 PM
We use a dual vertical rack between the seats. And 16" carbines.

El Cid
11-18-2014, 09:28 PM
But how many get out with the rifle? My concern is needing to get back and then retrieving. I've been doing this since 1996 with a badge and can recall one time getting out of the car with the shotgun in hand. Any other time, we have to run and retrieve. This is my concern, the vulnerability of exposing your back side while retrieving.

I seen a Post 14 troopers setup and am convinced, it's the ideal setup.

We have Big Sky overhead racks and I wouldn't trade them for a nuke in the trunk. For me, when I retrieve the rifle if I've already left the vehicle, I sit down in either front seat as I pull it down. I can see anyone approach and if I can't get to/no longer have my pistols I can at least kick them in the face if they come to my door. Even if I was overwhelmed with stress... I'd instinctively sit to get it since bending over would be beyond awkward.

gtmtnbiker98
11-18-2014, 09:39 PM
We use a dual vertical rack between the seats. And 16" carbines.thats what we have now in our Chargers and Expedition.

gtmtnbiker98
11-18-2014, 09:45 PM
Long gun deployment is a very proactive activity. Any form of "go back and get it" is going to be sub-optimal compared to stepping out with it. Folks need to be thinking who's deploying the long gun on the way to the call, not IF we should deploy one. I'm a bit famous for calling "dibs" in this department. I have a drop leg rig with two spare magazines and I've been able to get it clipped on (without straps around the leg yet) and have a rifle in my hands when I step out.Thats not our current mind set, but I hope to get there, very soon.

Kimura
11-19-2014, 01:32 PM
Out of curiosity; your current set up is one shotgun and one AR in each car, correct? If so, since you already have the shotguns, wouldn't it be beneficial to store one in the car (overhead rack or your current between the seats version) and one in the trunk? That way the officer/s would have access to a long gun either way. Also if you're running two man cars, each will have a long gun if necessary. Just a thought.

gtmtnbiker98
11-19-2014, 01:43 PM
Out of curiosity; your current set up is one shotgun and one AR in each car, correct? If so, since you already have the shotguns, wouldn't it be beneficial to store one in the car (overhead rack or your current between the seats version) and one in the trunk? That way the officer/s would have access to a long gun either way. Also if you're running two man cars, each will have a long gun if necessary. Just a thought.

Only our newer Chargers and single Expedition have the dual racks. They are in the center between the seats and are a pain to get out. Our remaining Interceptors have overhead shotgun racks. We haven't dressed out the new vehicle order(s) yet.

John Hearne
11-19-2014, 02:24 PM
They are in the center between the seats and are a pain to get out.

There are a few things to check that might make the access easier. For instance, the Setina dual gun locks ship with the lock oriented so they open out. In most modern (smaller) vehicles, the arm hits the seat and doesn't open fully. If you change the orientation of the lock so that both open towards the center, it makes life a lot easier.

In my Utility, the arm rest was a PITA and blocked what little storage there was. I added a heavy duty hinge and now it can flop forward. I did this to make storage but I found that long gun deployment is much easier as the arm rest moves out of the way of the stock.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/ajp3jeh/2012%20Vehicles/Slicktop%20Utility/IMAG1571_zps8b64e81a.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/ajp3jeh/media/2012%20Vehicles/Slicktop%20Utility/IMAG1571_zps8b64e81a.jpg.html)

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/ajp3jeh/2012%20Vehicles/Slicktop%20Utility/IMAG1570_zpsfeb6e25f.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/ajp3jeh/media/2012%20Vehicles/Slicktop%20Utility/IMAG1570_zpsfeb6e25f.jpg.html)

(In these pictures the locks are not oriented correctly.)

czech6
11-19-2014, 02:31 PM
There are a few things to check that might make the access easier. For instance, the Setina dual gun locks ship with the lock oriented so they open out. In most modern (smaller) vehicles, the arm hits the seat and doesn't open fully. If you change the orientation of the lock so that both open towards the center, it makes life a lot easier

Flopping them to rotate in and staggering them slightly, also keeps the manual locks from getting blocked by the cage or seats. The racks are a PITA to take apart to retrieve a stuck long gun.

jnc36rcpd
11-20-2014, 06:11 PM
While there are exceptions, I would say that the majority of our long gun deployments entail the officer either exiting the cruiser with rifle or shotgun in hand or exiting and retrieving the weapon from the trunk. Many officers pull over, access the trunk, and obtain the long gun while enroute to the call. I do like El Cid's idea of sitting in the cruiser to obtain the long gun if one goes back to the cruiser for the weapon. Since unlocking our gun locks requires the ignition to be on, sitting in the car eliminates the Kabuki dance that occurs when someone needs to turn on the ignition, hit the gun release, pull the gun down, and hopefully turn off and remove the key.

My current set-up has the shotgun in an overhead dual rack and my rifle soft-cased in the trunk. I'd prefer to reverse the set-up but the rifle rack won't accept my rifle with the Surefire M500. In case anyone is wondering, the dual roof rack requires the officer to enter the back seat of the cruiser to obtain the long gun (and, of course, turning the ignition on and hitting the release---again the Kabuki dance).

cpd2110
11-20-2014, 07:15 PM
The rifle should be in the interior of the squad. I have deployed twice anticipating a shooting. The first was an attempted murder suspect who was chasing his wife in a car and shooting at her. I got behind him as he fled the scene, he stopped in his vehicle, I gave myself good distance and deployed my rifle from the trunk. I did it quick but only because I have trained to do it weekly. He ate his gun and problem was solved. Second time I was first on scene of an attempted robbery with bad guy firing shots. I deployed from the interior and was already hot as I exited the car. I was at a spot where I anticipated the guy coming as he exited the location on foot. There was no joy as he stopped and hid before he got to me. As I stood there though I could see other officers exit their squads, run to their trunks, make ready and then stand ready. I can tell you it is better to step out with your rifle ready then to do the stupid human tricks from the trunk.

iWander
11-20-2014, 07:29 PM
Amen, CPD. Having an SBR or pistol AR that you can sling and have ready before your get there makes all the difference.

El Cid
11-21-2014, 05:08 PM
And who can forget the Albuquerque officer who was using his AR to return fire while pursuing a cop killer? Can't do that with a weapon in the trunk.

Chuck Haggard
11-22-2014, 11:59 AM
Pretty sure it was Burbank with the SBR deployment that was working so well for the troops on the street

iWander
11-22-2014, 12:15 PM
The gun shouldn't be that hard to get out. My 14" 870 sits nicely across my lap and it can get there from the lock while going down the road. My 16" AR is slightly less convenient but still doable. The old overheads were great for this as well as the gun "flowed" out of the car very naturally.

I don't recall who it was but one of the first heavy deployments of patrol rifles in California used all 11.5" guns. The idea was that the officers could sling up in the car and step out ready to go. After playing with an 11.5" gun in and around a vehicle, I get it. An 11.5" AR is reasonably a 100 yard carbine but A RELIABLE ONE is more than enough for almost any urban police scenario.

Long gun deployment is a very proactive activity. Any form of "go back and get it" is going to be sub-optimal compared to stepping out with it. Folks need to be thinking who's deploying the long gun on the way to the call, not IF we should deploy one. I'm a bit famous for calling "dibs" in this department. I have a drop leg rig with two spare magazines and I've been able to get it clipped on (without straps around the leg yet) and have a rifle in my hands when I step out.
This^^^^^. We start our quals & training with them making the long gun duty ready, then unlocking it from the rack & exiting the cruiser with it already in hand. I don't care about the public's "perceptions"-I care about officer & public safety, & getting the job done. It's a lot easier to put it back after the incident than have to go back to your cruiser or do without it.

I carry my personal 7.5"pistol on duty & it's locked in the Tahoe's truck vault. I'll stop on the way to a hot call, unlock it & sling it before I get there so it's already in hand. If I roll up on something & don't have a chance to get it beforehand, I know I have the agency rifle & 870 at hand between the seats.

KevinB
11-22-2014, 12:44 PM
7.5" 5.56mm gun have no business off a range FWIW - your terminal effectiveness is around .22LR...

I'm from the Shotty is a Breaching/LL tool. I would never pull from the cars - mainly as in an AS situation, the patrol guys are going to need to breach in all likelihood.

As far as a useful tool - well lets just say I am a big fan of Patrol Carbines, but I do not go below 11.5" on 5.56mm

iWander
11-22-2014, 01:19 PM
7.5" 5.56mm gun have no business off a range FWIW - your terminal effectiveness is around .22LR...

I'm from the Shotty is a Breaching/LL tool. I would never pull from the cars - mainly as in an AS situation, the patrol guys are going to need to breach in all likelihood.

As far as a useful tool - well lets just say I am a big fan of Patrol Carbines, but I do not go below 11.5" on 5.56mm
We'll have to agree to disagree, Kevin. I've heard that over and over, so I did my own testing with my gun. PM me & we can talk about it.

KevinB
11-22-2014, 03:20 PM
PM sent

CanineCombatives
11-30-2014, 06:09 PM
Started deploying the shotty on the street in 86, was one of the first authorized with the auto around 91 which was the M1 super 90,
later on the M2 and SLP, now the R12 and 1301, in addition to breaching I'd say the one scenario where the shotty still has no peers
is on felony vehicle stops with multiple occupants, I'll still take it over any M4 carbine in that scenario, with 12 pellet 00 federal LE.

On the patrol carbines, I think 10.5" is the sweet spot and should be the standard. I'm also a big proponent of dedicated suppressed
operation.

Beat Trash
12-01-2014, 12:13 PM
Never Mind.

Beat Trash
12-02-2014, 07:37 PM
We are slowly adding Explorers to our vehicle fleet. These have duel weapon mounts up front. Prior to that, the rifle is carried in the trunk. The officer pulls over prior to arriving on scene and grabs the rifle out of the trunk. Not ideal at all. When I first started, the shotguns were also kept in the trunk. Times change.

I've only had access to an Explorer with the duel mounts for about a month (We don't have take home cars). I've deployed from it a few times. The last time was when I personally heard full auto fire from a housing project that I was driving past, the night before the announcement of the Ferguson GJ findings. The combination of the large doors of the Explorer and the interior mount was very nice.

A post or two has mention Patrol guys needing breaching. I understand Law Enforcement policies and guidelines are very regional. I'm with a Midwest agency of about 1,000 officers. In my area, non-SWAT units would never deploy breaching shotguns. Are Uniformed Patrol officers in your part of the country trained with and utilizing breaching rounds without SWAT present?

The only rounds available to our Patrol Officers is the OO Buck ammunition.

We pulled the less lethal beanbag guns from Patrol after the ammunition manufacture changed their opinion on the lethality of the ammunition. This was largely in part to civil law suits following deployments during the riots we had in 2001. We still qualify and train with slugs, but they are kept in vans containing riot gear.

I've been asked to meet with some individuals within my agency after the holidays. We are going to debate the pros and cons of retiring the shotgun for Uniform Patrol and replacing it with Patrol Rifles for all vehicles. My feeling is that the OO Buck loaded shotgun can be an effective tool. Just like the 4" barreled S&W Model 64 38 sp revolver can be an effective tool. But I feel that, just like our issued M&P9 pistols, the AR brings more to the table.

Recently, I had a conversation with our lead instructor (OPOTA Certified to certify LE trainers within Ohio, Whatever that classification is called and has been an instructor for about 15 years) I was able to list several advantages the Patrol rifle offers the Officer (16" semi auto AR) over the OO Buck loaded 870. I challenged him to list any and all advantages the OO Buck loaded 870 offers over a Patrol Rifle. He's a huge shotgun fan. He couldn't list any advantages.

My personal opinion is that the shotgun is still a valid tool for special purpose tasks such as breaching. But for general issue for Uniform Patrol, I feel it should be retired inferior of the Patrol Rifle.

gtmtnbiker98
12-02-2014, 07:43 PM
We are slowly adding Explorers to our vehicle fleet. These have duel weapon mounts up front. Prior to that, the rifle is carried in the trunk. The officer pulls over prior to arriving on scene and grabs the rifle out of the trunk. Not ideal at all. When I first started, the shotguns were also kept in the trunk. Times change.

I've only had access to an Explorer with the duel mounts for about a month (We don't have take home cars). I've deployed from it a few times. The last time was when I personally heard full auto fire from a housing project that I was driving past, the night before the announcement of the Ferguson GJ findings. The combination of the large doors of the Explorer and the interior mount was very nice.

A post or two has mention Patrol guys needing breaching. I understand Law Enforcement policies and guidelines are very regional. I'm with a Midwest agency of about 1,000 officers. In my area, non-SWAT units would never deploy breaching shotguns. Are Uniformed Patrol officers in your part of the country trained with and utilizing breaching rounds without SWAT present?

The only rounds available to our Patrol Officers is the OO Buck ammunition.

We pulled the less lethal beanbag guns from Patrol after the ammunition manufacture changed their opinion on the lethality of the ammunition. This was largely in part to civil law suits following deployments during the riots we had in 2001. We still qualify and train with slugs, but they are kept in vans containing riot gear.

I've been asked to meet with some individuals within my agency after the holidays. We are going to debate the pros and cons of retiring the shotgun for Uniform Patrol and replacing it with Patrol Rifles for all vehicles. My feeling is that the OO Buck loaded shotgun can be an effective tool. Just like the 4" barreled S&W Model 64 38 sp revolver can be an effective tool. But I feel that, just like our issued M&P9 pistols, the AR brings more to the table.

Recently, I had a conversation with our lead instructor (OPOTA Certified to certify LE trainers within Ohio, Whatever that classification is called and has been an instructor for about 15 years) I was able to list several advantages the Patrol rifle offers the Officer (16" semi auto AR) over the OO Buck loaded 870. I challenged him to list any and all advantages the OO Buck loaded 870 offers over a Patrol Rifle. He's a huge shotgun fan. He couldn't list any advantages.

My personal opinion is that the shotgun is still a valid tool for special purpose tasks such as breaching. But for general issue for Uniform Patrol, I feel it should be retired inferior of the Patrol Rifle.After your meeting, can you share some insight via PM? I know who you are with and we are nearby. Would love to share ideas and concerns.

czech6
12-04-2014, 01:21 PM
The only rounds available to our Patrol Officers is the OO Buck ammunition.

We pulled the less lethal beanbag guns from Patrol after the ammunition manufacture changed their opinion on the lethality of the ammunition. This was largely in part to civil law suits following deployments during the riots we had in 2001. We still qualify and train with slugs, but they are kept in vans containing riot gear.

I've been asked to meet with some individuals within my agency after the holidays. We are going to debate the pros and cons of retiring the shotgun for Uniform Patrol and replacing it with Patrol Rifles for all vehicles. My feeling is that the OO Buck loaded shotgun can be an effective tool. Just like the 4" barreled S&W Model 64 38 sp revolver can be an effective tool. But I feel that, just like our issued M&P9 pistols, the AR brings more to the table.

Recently, I had a conversation with our lead instructor (OPOTA Certified to certify LE trainers within Ohio, Whatever that classification is called and has been an instructor for about 15 years) I was able to list several advantages the Patrol rifle offers the Officer (16" semi auto AR) over the OO Buck loaded 870. I challenged him to list any and all advantages the OO Buck loaded 870 offers over a Patrol Rifle. He's a huge shotgun fan. He couldn't list any advantages.

My personal opinion is that the shotgun is still a valid tool for special purpose tasks such as breaching. But for general issue for Uniform Patrol, I feel it should be retired inferior of the Patrol Rifle.

At least from I've seen in the news, it seems like Ohio is the epicenter of loonies with zoo animals for pets. Zanesville should make a pretty strong case for keeping at least few dedicated slug guns in circulation for dealing with unusually big pest problems.

HCM
12-04-2014, 02:22 PM
We are slowly adding Explorers to our vehicle fleet. These have duel weapon mounts up front. Prior to that, the rifle is carried in the trunk. The officer pulls over prior to arriving on scene and grabs the rifle out of the trunk. Not ideal at all. When I first started, the shotguns were also kept in the trunk. Times change.

I've only had access to an Explorer with the duel mounts for about a month (We don't have take home cars). I've deployed from it a few times. The last time was when I personally heard full auto fire from a housing project that I was driving past, the night before the announcement of the Ferguson GJ findings. The combination of the large doors of the Explorer and the interior mount was very nice.

A post or two has mention Patrol guys needing breaching. I understand Law Enforcement policies and guidelines are very regional. I'm with a Midwest agency of about 1,000 officers. In my area, non-SWAT units would never deploy breaching shotguns. Are Uniformed Patrol officers in your part of the country trained with and utilizing breaching rounds without SWAT present?

The only rounds available to our Patrol Officers is the OO Buck ammunition.

We pulled the less lethal beanbag guns from Patrol after the ammunition manufacture changed their opinion on the lethality of the ammunition. This was largely in part to civil law suits following deployments during the riots we had in 2001. We still qualify and train with slugs, but they are kept in vans containing riot gear.

I've been asked to meet with some individuals within my agency after the holidays. We are going to debate the pros and cons of retiring the shotgun for Uniform Patrol and replacing it with Patrol Rifles for all vehicles. My feeling is that the OO Buck loaded shotgun can be an effective tool. Just like the 4" barreled S&W Model 64 38 sp revolver can be an effective tool. But I feel that, just like our issued M&P9 pistols, the AR brings more to the table.

Recently, I had a conversation with our lead instructor (OPOTA Certified to certify LE trainers within Ohio, Whatever that classification is called and has been an instructor for about 15 years) I was able to list several advantages the Patrol rifle offers the Officer (16" semi auto AR) over the OO Buck loaded 870. I challenged him to list any and all advantages the OO Buck loaded 870 offers over a Patrol Rifle. He's a huge shotgun fan. He couldn't list any advantages.

My personal opinion is that the shotgun is still a valid tool for special purpose tasks such as breaching. But for general issue for Uniform Patrol, I feel it should be retired inferior of the Patrol Rifle.

For general issue, i agree the AR is generally more effective than the shotgun however, will you be issuing each officer a rifle or will you be using pool rifles assigned to the car ? I ask because as detailed in the USBP rifle thread, pool rifles suck.

Re Breaching: the shotgun with 00 can be an effective breaching tool in an emergency such as an active shooter event where you can't wait for SWAT. Breaching with 00 is addressed in the ALERRT program for patrol officers here in TX.

Beat Trash
12-04-2014, 09:35 PM
Pool rifles, except for personally owned, departmentally approved rifles.

Yes pool rifles suck.

Non SWAT get zero training with breaching.

Chuck Haggard
12-04-2014, 09:44 PM
We had pool rifles in our squads for awhile. Every single bad thing we warned would happen turned out to be true, except thankfully we didn't whack a bystander due to an F'd up zero.

Good luck with that. I seriously hope it works out.

Dagga Boy
12-06-2014, 09:15 PM
Ditto what Chuck said. Our guys personally owned rifles worked well and were well maintained. The pool guns looked like they were towed behind the units and always had jacked up zero's.

GJM
12-06-2014, 09:24 PM
If the only option was a pool long gun, wouldn't the pool shotgun with buck be a better policing option than the pool AR?

Lon
12-06-2014, 11:01 PM
In the 12 years we've had ARs in the cars, we haven't had issues with "pool rifle syndrome".