40 S&W and Glocks

[KevH]

It seems to get asked every other week on every gun forum so here is a short explanation of 40 S&W Glocks:

I've been a Glock armorer at a medium sized police department for 12 years and carried a G22 for a chunk of that time. I've run the gambit with Gen2 and Gen3 G22's. There are two main issues.

With the Gen2 G22's Glock essentially took a 9mm G17 frame and slide and bored it out to 40 S&W. They didn't account for higher pressure and didn't put enough case support in the chamber of the barrel and if you ran extra hot ammo OR you had ignition without the gun being completely in battery (which was extra likely with a G22 because the recoil spring would wear out faster due to the higher pressure ammo) you would blow up the case and possibly the gun in the process.

Glock began to correct these issues in the late Gen2 guns and early Gen3 guns. They changed the chamber specs and added an extra pin in the locking block of the frame. Some people will tell you the extra pin was superfluous. On 40 S&W Glocks I see that metal pin break fairly often. So, I can tell you that there is extra stress going on in that area of the gun and here is why…

In Gen2 and Gen3 guns the 9mm and 40 S&W use the same recoil spring assembly (RSA). Weird huh? Sig and most other brands have a different spring between those two calibers. Not Glock. The 40 S&W guns wear out RSA’s faster pure and simple. As the RSA wears out the plastic frame of the 40 S&W guns really begin to absorb a fair amount of recoil. That flexing ends up placing stress on the locking block and breaks the pin. But wait, there’s more…

When WML’s came out most were plastic. I remember around 2000/2001 when the Gen3 guns were arriving and every cop went out and bought a M3 light and a pouch for it on their belt and would draw their gun and stick it on and think they were cool (some things only look truly stupid in retrospect). Those plastic lights like the M3 and the Glock light didn’t fit super tight and their plastic bodies allowed some flex during recoil. Enter the X200 and TLR 2005ish.

Some guys started seeing feeding issues with the M3 light. When the X200 and TLR came out some really big feeding issues started to show up. What was happening is the metal light was rigid on the dustcover of the frame and wouldn’t allow it to flex. On a TLR where the light mount tightens, the issue was even more pronounced. So if a guy ran a metal light on a brand new G22 he was cool for about the first 1200 rounds or so. Then the issue started to pop up.

Few things going on:
1) No flex in the frame meant the RSA took all the recoil wearing it out faster.

2) Worn out RSA meant most hot duty ammo (like Federal HST) would cycle the gun, but practice ammo would not. Why? The higher velocity ammo would cycle the slide fast enough to function, but would beat the gun to death evidenced by peeing and a broken locking block pin.

3) The Gen3 magazines would also flex around more during recoil and the rounds would tip up in the magazine. So the slide isn’t going at the right speed and the rounds are being presented almost vertical. You end up with a classic failure to feed.


There was a lot of back and forth and denial between Glock and the LE community a lot more shenanigans and then some of us on both sides figured it out. I loved the guys that would run the light until the gun started to FTF and then take the light off and declare everything fine. Little did they know the RSA was now toast and the gun would run because the frame was taking the impact and the gun was beating itself to death. All those guys ended up with broken locking block pins and other issues. Same with the guys that said, “I’ll just shoot duty ammo because that seems to work.” Same deal.

Glock went through several new magazine followers and springs before they finally introduced the Gen4 guns with a new magazine design. They look very similar, but even the first Gen4 G22 mags that came out got it right. But magazines alone don’t solve the problem. So here is what you have to do…

If you want to carry a Gen3 G22 with a light here is the solution:
-Change your RSA every 2500 rounds or so
-Use the latest Gen4 Glock magazines. When mags start to go south dump them for new ones.
-Check the locking block pin once a year to make sure it’s still intact

It is really that simple. I have well over 30 guns in service that couldn’t get through one mag without at least three FTF’s that run flawlessly with that prescription.

Glocks in 9mm and 45 ACP don’t suffer the same issues because the pressure of the rounds is so much less (and different) than the 40 S&W. My department only issues the 9mm round in +P (duty and practice) and I can tell you it won’t wear out the gun anywhere near the way 40 S&W does. I still change the RSA’s on my own 9mm and 45 ACP guns fairly often though. They’re dirt cheap and extra insurance that everything will keep rolling.

I’ve seen a few G21’s that started to develop FTF issues. Simply changing out springs, both RSA and mags, has always solved the issue. Remember, gun springs are like the oil filter on your car. They aren’t meant to last the life of the car or gun and need to get swapped fairly frequently.

[Jeep]

It seems to get asked every other week on every gun forum so here is a short explanation of 40 S&W Glocks:

I've been a Glock armorer at a medium sized police department for 12 years and carried a G22 for a chunk of that time. I've run the gambit with Gen2 and Gen3 G22's. There are two main issues.

With the Gen2 G22's Glock essentially took a 9mm G17 frame and slide and bored it out to 40 S&W. They didn't account for higher pressure and didn't put enough case support in the chamber of the barrel and if you ran extra hot ammo OR you had ignition without the gun being completely in battery (which was extra likely with a G22 because the recoil spring would wear out faster due to the higher pressure ammo) you would blow up the case and possibly the gun in the process.

Glock began to correct these issues in the late Gen2 guns and early Gen3 guns. They changed the chamber specs and added an extra pin in the locking block of the frame. Some people will tell you the extra pin was superfluous. On 40 S&W Glocks I see that metal pin break fairly often. So, I can tell you that there is extra stress going on in that area of the gun and here is why…

In Gen2 and Gen3 guns the 9mm and 40 S&W use the same recoil spring assembly (RSA). Weird huh? Sig and most other brands have a different spring between those two calibers. Not Glock. The 40 S&W guns wear out RSA’s faster pure and simple. As the RSA wears out the plastic frame of the 40 S&W guns really begin to absorb a fair amount of recoil. That flexing ends up placing stress on the locking block and breaks the pin. But wait, there’s more…

When WML’s came out most were plastic. I remember around 2000/2001 when the Gen3 guns were arriving and every cop went out and bought a M3 light and a pouch for it on their belt and would draw their gun and stick it on and think they were cool (some things only look truly stupid in retrospect). Those plastic lights like the M3 and the Glock light didn’t fit super tight and their plastic bodies allowed some flex during recoil. Enter the X200 and TLR 2005ish.

Some guys started seeing feeding issues with the M3 light. When the X200 and TLR came out some really big feeding issues started to show up. What was happening is the metal light was rigid on the dustcover of the frame and wouldn’t allow it to flex. On a TLR where the light mount tightens, the issue was even more pronounced. So if a guy ran a metal light on a brand new G22 he was cool for about the first 1200 rounds or so. Then the issue started to pop up.

Few things going on:
1) No flex in the frame meant the RSA took all the recoil wearing it out faster.

2) Worn out RSA meant most hot duty ammo (like Federal HST) would cycle the gun, but practice ammo would not. Why? The higher velocity ammo would cycle the slide fast enough to function, but would beat the gun to death evidenced by peeing and a broken locking block pin.

3) The Gen3 magazines would also flex around more during recoil and the rounds would tip up in the magazine. So the slide isn’t going at the right speed and the rounds are being presented almost vertical. You end up with a classic failure to feed.


There was a lot of back and forth and denial between Glock and the LE community a lot more shenanigans and then some of us on both sides figured it out. I loved the guys that would run the light until the gun started to FTF and then take the light off and declare everything fine. Little did they know the RSA was now toast and the gun would run because the frame was taking the impact and the gun was beating itself to death. All those guys ended up with broken locking block pins and other issues. Same with the guys that said, “I’ll just shoot duty ammo because that seems to work.” Same deal.

Glock went through several new magazine followers and springs before they finally introduced the Gen4 guns with a new magazine design. They look very similar, but even the first Gen4 G22 mags that came out got it right. But magazines alone don’t solve the problem. So here is what you have to do…

If you want to carry a Gen3 G22 with a light here is the solution:
-Change your RSA every 2500 rounds or so
-Use the latest Gen4 Glock magazines. When mags start to go south dump them for new ones.
-Check the locking block pin once a year to make sure it’s still intact

It is really that simple. I have well over 30 guns in service that couldn’t get through one mag without at least three FTF’s that run flawlessly with that prescription.

Glocks in 9mm and 45 ACP don’t suffer the same issues because the pressure of the rounds is so much less (and different) than the 40 S&W. My department only issues the 9mm round in +P (duty and practice) and I can tell you it won’t wear out the gun anywhere near the way 40 S&W does. I still change the RSA’s on my own 9mm and 45 ACP guns fairly often though. They’re dirt cheap and extra insurance that everything will keep rolling.

I’ve seen a few G21’s that started to develop FTF issues. Simply changing out springs, both RSA and mags, has always solved the issue. Remember, gun springs are like the oil filter on your car. They aren’t meant to last the life of the car or gun and need to get swapped fairly frequently.

Thanks for the extended explanation!

[Chuck Haggard]

It actually is in no way that simple. Seriously.

Your post is the pre 2005 H series G22 solution, and it normally works, most of the time. The problems with the newer guns made since then are rather more epic.

More later when I have time.

[Erick Gelhaus]

We issued the Glock 22, from 1997 until this year. We began replacing Gen 3 versions in '11 with Gen 4s. Prior to the last budget crisis that hit all of us, I had about 300 full & part time cops. We allow other, personally purchased guns but I can truthfully say I had well over 200 Glock 22s in service most of the time. Up to an armorer re-cert in '07, we never heard any recommended round count based parts replacement from the factory.

We first encountered the Gen 3 / WML issue back in 2000 (btw, Business Week devoted the better part of an issue to Glock and this problem back '10). We followed their recommendation of replacing magazine springs - and it mostly went away. Back then though I could count the number of WMLs that were on the round on one hand. Also, back then, we only had two rounds to deal with - 180gr JHP for duty and 180gr TC load for training.

Fast forward to '10. I was watching these issues all over the country and was so thankful I wasnt dealing with them. We had to track three loads - frangible, TC training and a duty JHP. We also also at least 70 Gen 3 22s with WML on them. In Dec '10, we had a K9 handle who shot some training (or tried to) on an outdoor range with duty ammo. The gun did not work, would not run. The instructors on that range had him change to training ammo - it ran; swapped slides & frames, light on or off; all sorts of inconsistencies.

I took the gun, light, training and duty rounds plus a camera to the range the next day. Significant malfunctions with duty ammo (180gr JHP). Hmmm.

We told everyone with a WML on their G22 to come to an outdoor range to test with duty loads. Out of 70, I had 36, 37 that failed to function with duty loads & WMLs. This was primarily failures to feed, mostly what I can only describe as an internal stove pipe during the feed step. Everything was photographed. We also chrono'd our ammo (from memory now), frangible was high 11 or low 12something, 180gr TC was 1055-1060, duty 180gr JHP was 1010. The guns had been running fine with frang & training ammo. We contacted Glock & the duty ammo manf at SHOT. Glock sent out parts to remediate a significant number of the failed guns. When we re-tested with Glock present, using a protocol vetted by other L/E and a couple mil, using duty ammo, we had a 25% failure rate. This included new RSAs and magazines with #9 followers and #2 bodies.

Muzzle velocity has something to do with it, look at the numbers above. The method for attaching the WML had nothing to do with it - that I could hang my hat on. We considered changing duty rounds but they did not have issues in other non-Glock .40cal pistols. Also, what if the company changed the new round or stopped making it. The protocol included fairly loose hand/wrist shooting positions, these were not an issue.

We replaced our Gen 3s in a rather wide serial number range (H through M) with Gen 4s. Late last year and into this, we experienced enough issues with the Gen 4 22s that we are now switching to Gen 4 -17s. I now have 150ish Gen 4 -17s in service and I have more coming to replace the remaining G & older serial number Gen 3s.

Hope this helps.

[BJJ]

I am very interested in this conversation. Please keep it going.

[DocGKR]

I know Angus and his agency's problems--listen to what he has to say, as it is right on target so to speak.

[JHC]

Angus concluded the method of attaching the WML wasn't a factor - but do I understand correctly that the WML is the big FAIL?

Is the prevailing theory still that the WML has some effect on the frame of a .40 (either rigidity or just total mass or something) that leads to slide velocity increasing faster than the system can keep ejecting and feeding more rounds?

[Chuck Haggard]

I tried every single light on the market, including Glock's suggested Glock light, all of them caused our guns to choke a LOT. The light hanging off of the dust cover does two things, it takes flex out of the dust cover and adds weight to the frame, both of which add slide velocity to a system that was on the ragged edge of reliability to begin with.

[JHC]

I tried every single light on the market, including Glock's suggested Glock light, all of them caused out guns to choke a LOT. The light hanging off of the dust cover does two things, it takes flex out of the dust cover and adds weight to the frame, both of which add slide velocity to a system that was on the ragged edge of reliability to begin with.

And the Gen 4 RSA was an approach to retard some of that slide velocity but apparently does not uniformly eliminate the problem.

They needed that .45GAP upper on the standard size lower frame you experimented with.

[rsa-otc]

I do not personally have experience with this problem not being a Glock shooter and only recently started shooting 40 S&W. I do though wish to throw the following observations out there:

From Angus's post 180 grain TC ammo running at 1060sh fps never gave them a lick of trouble but 180 grain Duty ammo running at 1010 fps uniformly caused malfunctions. While I wouldn't think 50sh fps difference would cause any issues, I would think the slide velocity on the training ammo would be greater so wouldn't the training ammo be problematic if slide velocity causing frame flex issues was the culprit. Now I understand that different ammo using different powders can have differing recoil impulses which is why competition shooters are particular about their powders looking for that soft shooting load while maintaining the same velocity and power factor.

After my recent issues reloading for 40 S&W where I found that bullet profile gave me feeding issues depending on the seated depth of the slug/bullet, I am wondering if that is the issue and the reason new RSA's don't completely eradicate the problem. I have never had such difficulty when loading 45 acp or 9mm, it seems to me that 40 S&W is more sensitive to COL. Could the training ammo Angus's department used have a differing bullet profile or seated depth as compared to his duty ammo? Since the frame of the gun is flexing differently when a WML is attached could it be causing the bullet to be presented to the chamber at a problematic angle for said Duty Ammo?

Just my thoughts, I know smarter folks than I have been studying this issue for years.

[LSP552]

I tried every single light on the market, including Glock's suggested Glock light, all of them caused out guns to choke a LOT. The light hanging off of the dust cover does two things, it takes flex out of the dust cover and adds weight to the frame, both of which add slide velocity to a system that was on the ragged edge of reliability to begin with.

If I were personally going to hang a light on a .40 cal Glock, it would be a G35. They just doesn't seem to have the same problem. Maybe the heavier slide is enough to make the difference? LSP SWAT had 60+ G35s in service for a long time without any light problems.

Something interesting is LSP transitioned from SIGP220s/228s to RTF G22/17s a few years ago. The SWAT G35s were worn out and have essentially been replaced by the general issue RTF 22s. As last I heard, the RTF 22s were running fine with TLRs. I guess it's like a box of chocolates; you never know what you are going to get.

Given the choice, I'd pass on a G22 of any generation if I planned to run a WML. I'd go G35 if I HAD to use .40 but I'd MUCH prefer a 17/34.

[Chuck Haggard]

The feeding issue is simply excessive slide velocity. In the case of the G22s that exhibit this issue the nose of the rounds don't even make it up to the feedramp, they stub into the front of the magazine tube. This is due to the slide completely outrunning the ability of the magazine to keep up.

The original M4s had similar feeding/timing issues. The fix did not involve a heavier magazine spring.

[Dagga Boy]

Here is my old Glock .40. I don't know what happened, but nothing works real well in it anymore........weird. No light, 100% high quality law enforcement factory ammunition (fed contract stuff).

[Chuck Haggard]

Here is my old Glock .40. I don't know what happened, but nothing works real well in it anymore........weird. No light, 100% high quality law enforcement factory ammunition (fed contract stuff).

You were obviously limp wristing the gun. Learn to shoot, slacker.

[rsa-otc]

What I'm getting hung up on is this - in Angus's example the faster moving training ammo did not exhibit any issues but the slower moving duty ammo did exhibit significant problems. You would think that the faster training ammo would cause higher slide velocities. Could it be that the hollow points were digging into the plastic walls of the magazine? Although Angus described it as an internal stove pipe. Wouldn't mind seeing a picture of one of his jams.

[rsa-otc]

Here is my old Glock .40. I don't know what happened, but nothing works real well in it anymore........weird. No light, 100% high quality law enforcement factory ammunition (fed contract stuff).

DB you weren't using that as a hammer were you? :confused: A little JB weld and it will be as good as new. :p

[Chuck Haggard]

Much of their training ammo was frangible, thus a lighter bullet.

[DocGKR]

Bingo!

[rsa-otc]

Much of their training ammo was frangible, thus a lighter bullet.

OK didn't get that from his post just that the only round they had issues with was the Duty round.

[MD7305]

Some of the reports I've seen about the G22/WML issue recommended using a 180gr. instead of 165 or 155gr. rounds as the guns seemed to run better with the heavier rounds. These would seem to go with what has been mentioned about velocity and lighter bullet weights. I kinda makes me sick because my PD switched to Gen.4 G22s w/TLR-1 WML. 15 months in and we've been lucky to have had no issues but I'm just waiting for problems to arise. What would you recommend for a proactive approach to mitigating the issues? Keeping RSAs and mag springs on hand to replace on or prior to recommended intervals?

[Chuck Haggard]

180gr didn't fix our problem completely.

[LSP972]

[QUOTE=LSP552;264835]

Something interesting is LSP transitioned from SIGP220s/228s to RTF G22/17s a few years ago. The SWAT G35s were worn out and have essentially been replaced by the general issue RTF 22s. As last I heard, the RTF 22s were running fine with TLRs. I guess it's like a box of chocolates; you never know what you are going to get.
[Quote]

And don't forget EBRSO's G22s, along with the other G22s piggy-backed off our contract by LSUPD and others. Those guns all have WMLs on them, and get shot enough to know if they had an issue.

For sure, a bizarre situation. Too many verified reports to discount,yet plenty of folks without the problem.

.

[Fire-Medic]

If I were personally going to hang a light on a .40 cal Glock, it would be a G35. They just doesn't seem to have the same problem. Maybe the heavier slide is enough to make the difference?

Doesn't a G35 slide weigh the same as a G22 slide because the cutout on the top?

Not an argument brother, honest question for my educational purposes. I don't have the two slides to weigh them or I would.

[JBP55]

[QUOTE=LSP552;264835]

Something interesting is LSP transitioned from SIGP220s/228s to RTF G22/17s a few years ago. The SWAT G35s were worn out and have essentially been replaced by the general issue RTF 22s. As last I heard, the RTF 22s were running fine with TLRs. I guess it's like a box of chocolates; you never know what you are going to get.
[Quote]

And don't forget EBRSO's G22s, along with the other G22s piggy-backed off our contract by LSUPD and others. Those guns all have WMLs on them, and get shot enough to know if they had an issue.

For sure, a bizarre situation. Too many verified reports to discount,yet plenty of folks without the problem.

.

LPSO and Walker use the G35 with lights with no issues as well. When LPSO SRT Gen 3 G35's became well used after about 10 years they were replaced with Gen 4 G35's.

[JBP55]

Doesn't a G35 slide weigh the same as a G22 slide because the cutout on the top?

Not an argument brother, honest question for my educational purposes. I don't have the two slides to weigh them or I would.

The G35 slide weights approximately 1 oz. more than a G22 slide.

[El Cid]

I tried every single light on the market, including Glock's suggested Glock light, all of them caused out guns to choke a LOT. The light hanging off of the dust cover does two things, it takes flex out of the dust cover and adds weight to the frame, both of which add slide velocity to a system that was on the ragged edge of reliability to begin with.

I mentioned this recently somewhere else, but a contact at Quantico informed me that they recently tested a bunch of weapon lights and the only one that didn't cause any malfunctions was the new Inforce APL with the screw on mounting system.

I'm no engineer but it's probably a lot lighter being all plastic and using only one battery.

I've also heard that their downloading of their 40 duty ammo some years ago was more to mitigate the weapon light issues than helping weak shooters qualify.

[Chuck Haggard]

The various FBI .40 loads that I have seen have all been downloaded. Back when we were having issues and I kept getting hit with "but the FBI isn't having any problems" and had to explain to one person after another that they had proprietary (and that time) secret NDA from Speer download 165gr Gold Dot running 950fps instead of 1185fps. That lighter loading made a huge difference.

[Jeep]

Let me ask this question generally. Is anyone aware of similar problems with WML's with G-17's? I haven't heard any word of that (and of course there were plenty of early Gen 4 G-17 problems of other sorts) but has anyone experienced WML-related failures with them?

[Chuck Haggard]

Let me ask this question generally. Is anyone aware of similar problems with WML's with G-17's? I haven't heard any word of that (and of course there were plenty of early Gen 4 G-17 problems of other sorts) but has anyone experienced WML-related failures with them?

Nope, and I tested the crap out of every available combination.

[DocGKR]

Which is one of many reasons why 9 mm Glocks are the best way to go...

[Jeep]

[QUOTE=Chuck Haggard;264935]Nope, and I tested the crap out of every available combination.[/QUOTE}

This is way off topic, but your answer (as well as pretty much everything Doc writes) reminds me again just how many of the people on this forum are way ahead of everyone else when it comes to thinking through firearms-related issues. I learn something everytime I come here.

How did you guys get so many stars on one forum?

[Fire-Medic]

[QUOTE=Chuck Haggard;264935]Nope, and I tested the crap out of every available combination.[/QUOTE}

This is way off topic, but your answer (as well as pretty much everything Doc writes) reminds me again just how many of the people on this forum are way ahead of everyone else when it comes to thinking through firearms-related issues. I learn something everytime I come here.

How did you guys get so many stars on one forum?

They all got sick of mediating the threads on other forums to keep the peace :)

[Fire-Medic]

The G35 slide weights approximately 1 oz. more than a G22 slide.

Thanks for the response. It was my previous understanding that the bare slides weighed the same but the additional weight comparing the completed slides making the G35 heavier was in the longer barrel.

Much appreciated.

[Chuck Haggard]

[QUOTE=Chuck Haggard;264935]Nope, and I tested the crap out of every available combination.[/QUOTE}

This is way off topic, but your answer (as well as pretty much everything Doc writes) reminds me again just how many of the people on this forum are way ahead of everyone else when it comes to thinking through firearms-related issues. I learn something everytime I come here.

How did you guys get so many stars on one forum?

I appreciate the thought, but at the time I was just trying to take care of my troops, just doing my job as it were.

At that time I tested ammo from 88gr to 158gr, +P+ to subsonic, NATO ball, IMI black tip, Swedish/Norma AP ammo, some of that Hirtenberger and L7a1 that was "OH MA GERD!!!! SMGs ONLY!!!" high pressure stuff I had in my stash, even tried CCI snake shot (it also ran fine).
I used every light available on the market in 2006, including a prototype that Ken Good loaned me that had rails I could overtighten to make it worse than normal.
Shot the guns dry, lubed, overlubed, dirty as hell, heated to 125 degrees in an oven, frozen in the freezer, once burned 5700 rounds in one afternoon, etc.

Those 3rd gen G17s ran like the AK47 of legend.

The only issues I have seen since has been the well known crappy extractor issues some of the guns have had, which exhibited mostly as brass-to-face, and since appear to be resolved.

[JBP55]

Thanks for the response. It was my previous understanding that the bare slides weighed the same but the additional weight comparing the completed slides making the G35 heavier was in the longer barrel.

Much appreciated.

The G35 weights approximately 2 oz. more than a G22 and I think the G35 slide weights approximately 1 oz. more than a G22 slide but at my age my memory is not very good.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Let me ask this question generally. Is anyone aware of similar problems with WML's with G-17's? I haven't heard any word of that (and of course there were plenty of early Gen 4 G-17 problems of other sorts) but has anyone experienced WML-related failures with them?

No, I am not. In our limited experience so far with G17s and WMLs, we have not see any issues. Our testing included both SF X300Us and Streamlight TLR1s. Our instructors did a recent 2 day class with an outside instructor, more than half (10+) had WMLs on the pistols - no problems.

In talking with the program manager at a specific federal agency, I was told they had not experienced any issues with WMLs in their 9mm Glock testing of over a couple hundred thousand rounds.

[Lester Polfus]

I'm guessing the number of agencies that deployed Glocks in .357 Sig is somewhere around an order of magnitude lower than the number of agencies with .40's, but I'm wondering if they had similar problems?

[45dotACP]

I'm guessing the number of agencies that deployed Glocks in .357 Sig is somewhere around an order of magnitude lower than the number of agencies with .40's, but I'm wondering if they had similar problems?

Didn't say it in the other thread, but I am very curious of the same....

But I'm willing to bet it's all about sample size. Same percentage of turds...different pool.

[Jeep]

[QUOTE=Jeep;264949]

I appreciate the thought, but at the time I was just trying to take care of my troops, just doing my job as it were.

At that time I tested ammo from 88gr to 158gr, +P+ to subsonic, NATO ball, IMI black tip, Swedish/Norma AP ammo, some of that Hirtenberger and L7a1 that was "OH MA GERD!!!! SMGs ONLY!!!" high pressure stuff I had in my stash, even tried CCI snake shot (it also ran fine).
I used every light available on the market in 2006, including a prototype that Ken Good loaned me that had rails I could overtighten to make it worse than normal.
Shot the guns dry, lubed, overlubed, dirty as hell, heated to 125 degrees in an oven, frozen in the freezer, once burned 5700 rounds in one afternoon, etc.

Those 3rd gen G17s ran like the AK47 of legend.

The only issues I have seen since has been the well known crappy extractor issues some of the guns have had, which exhibited mostly as brass-to-face, and since appear to be resolved.

Chuck: Terrific job on testing--just what it needed. Of course, that just reinforces the point I made above! Anyway, this is a great thread and I'm going to go silent now and learn some more.

[Chuck Haggard]

Many of the maintenance issues noted with the Glock .40s were also present in the .357s, which explains why so many agencies that had G31s for issue got away from them.

I have not noted as many issues with WMLs on the G31s, but there were some that I saw, and I have a theory about bullet weight and how the rounds stack in the mag differently with the .40 rounds vs the .357s

[45dotACP]

Many of the maintenance issues noted with the Glock .40s were also present in the .357s, which explains why so many agencies that had G31s for issue got away from them.

I have not noted as many issues with WMLs on the G31s, but there were some that I saw, and I have a theory about bullet weight and how the rounds stack in the mag differently with the .40 rounds vs the .357s
One would think the bottle necked pistol cartridge, for all of it's disadvantages, might feed a little better...

[Chuck Haggard]

One would think the bottle necked pistol cartridge, for all of it's disadvantages, might feed a little better...

One would, but it doesn't always work out that way.



Paul Howe is one soruce of info in .357Sig feed issues, although his were more debris related. This is from his October 2011 newsletter on his website, www.combatshootingandtactics.com :


I have been shooting the G32 as my primary work gun for some time. I changed ranges for this class and we started on the LE range which has 24 points and is where we train the two-day class. Due to the drought, there is much sand on my grass ranges. After starting my demos, I had several failures to feed and magazines jamming with the .357 sig caliber. I cleaned my gun and stripped all the mags, cleaning them and replacing any springs that looked short. The next day I did more shooting and had the same problems to include a few demos during the student class.

What I found is that the .357 magazines are incredibly sensitive to sand. The bottle neck shape of the cartridge in the magazine will lock the magazine up with sometimes one trip to the ground. I immediately brought out my backup G19's as they fit all my holsters and mag pouches. I test the 9mm mags by dropping them into sand/talc type dirt and then covering them up with sand. I picked them up, shook the dirt off and depressed the top round a couple of times to anything out and then shot them without a hitch.

My best guess is that a "straight" case such as 9mm, .40, .45 will feed more reliably dirty than the .357 will. Knowing this, I will use my .357's now for training and dry fire on "clean" ranges and then use my G19's for demos/training with students. Knowing this, I would not take a .357 round into a sandy environment as you would have to constantly do maintenance on the mags to keep the gun running.

[Chuck Haggard]

Because I haven't had time to type the whole thing out again I pulled up one of my old e-mails to a group of folks who had hit me up for information back when. I turned into the go-to guy for Glock 22 issues due to word of mouth. After Glock Inc. started to threaten people with law suits I kept every written bit on info I had for all of my sources, some of those people were threatened with being fired by their bosses of they talked about the problem, so I have redacted some of the stuff I sent out in the past and kept info to myself instead of broadcasting it to the intardnets.
The bit below is a thumbnail of what we went through in 2006, but the issues and info are still relevant to the gen 3 G22/23 system, and some of the outside agency issues I have noted are STILL being dealt with in 2014.


Gentlemen,

This is a synopsis of our issues here at the Topeka PD with our attempt to transition to the Glock 22 as a duty weapon.

(Note, for the record I am not a Glock hater, and I owned five personal Glock .40s before we had all of our issues, my guns worked fine, but I find Glock .40 reliability to be hit and miss)

We decided to transition to the Glock system from our S&W 59 series pistols after research and a shoot-off between different weapon systems, we were looking for a DAO system to replace our S&Ws.

Our Chief at the time decided to change calibers and go with the .40. We ordered guns and started a transition process in March of 2006. During the Glock Instructor Workshop we had a few issues with fails to feed using the 165gr CCI Lawman practice ammo, but this was thought to be new gun and possibly the old “limp wrist” syndrome.

The plan at that time had been to just shoot FMJ ammo for training and qual, then load up with the chosen duty load, the 165gr Gold Dot, and go to work. I insisted that we test fire the duty ammo in our guns just to be sure even though that was not the plan (that duty ammo is expensive you know?). We then found that our guns had numerous fails to feed issues, especially with the guns that had lights mounted on them.

I did more testing as we went through with the transition classes (our boss insisted that we stick to the time schedule) and found that the malfunctions were common with the 165gr Gold Dot duty ammo.

I contacted Glock and they first told me that the ammo was too hot, and that the G22 was designed around a 180gr load. I crono’d the 165gr ammo we had and found it clocked 1185fps through our guns, above the book velocity of 1150fps, so I thought, “Well, could be”. I got ahold of CCI and they graciously agreed to swap out our ammo for the 180gr Gold Dot, I knew that to be a really decent duty load from feedback from friends on the KCMOPD who have used the 180gr Gold Dot for years.

Well, the guns didn't run much better with the 180gr ammo (note; clocked at 1050fps through our guns). Glock then said that the guns were only made to run with their lights (we were issuing the Insight M3X light at that time).
I pointed out that I had two issues with that statement; 1. We had two of their lights and the guns still didn’t work with those either, and 2. Some of the guns with no lights at all didn't work either.

They then said it was “limp wristing”, by the shooters. I again pointed out two facts;

1. I was one of those shooters, I have a 350lb bench press, and I have been shooting for over 35 years, I did not believe that I was “limp wristing” the guns.

2. The guns choked when I ran them with a good strong grip, (for the record I shoot high thumbs with a strong isosceles stance) but ran when weenie gripped on purpose. When I shot with a two finger limp wrist grip the guns suddenly started working for me. Since the issue was excessive slide velocity I am dead sure that limp wristing the guns bled off enough slide impulse to slow everything down enough for the mag springs to keep up, thus the guns started working.

They said they’d get back to me on that issue.

We started to get different ammo types and do test shoots of all of the available duty ammo. I found only two types to work in most of our guns, most of the time; The Winchester Ranger-T 180gr load and the FBI special loading of the 165gr Gold Dot (loaded to 1020fps over my crono).

Is started to dig deeper and found out several things. The FBI had an agreement with CCI for the special 165gr mid-range load, they also had a non-disclosure agreement at that time and could not sell that ammo to anyone else. This ammo had been developed by the FBI to help cure reliability, durability and recoil issues that they had with their earlier 180gr ammo. Even then the FBI issues the G17 to folks who have problems with qualification with the .40s.

I also found out that the Indiana State Police were having issues with their G22s at the same time we were, so I eventually was able to get ahold of their senior range guy, Sgt. Kevin Rees. I found that they were having the exact same issue we were with fails to feed. The ISP had absolutely no weapon mounted lights, so lights wasn’t the problem.

The ISP guys had a shoot-off with all of the available duty ammo and found that they could not get their guns working. Glock took about 100 of the guns back and reworked them but they still did not work. The ISP eventually traded the G22s for G17s in order to get a reliable weapon system.

After alot of shooting and weapons testing, including parts swapping, turning reliable 9mm framed guns into .40s, and vice versa, only to find that the .40s still didn’t work but the 9mms did, I tracked the issue down to one variable; the frames.

Glock changed the frame design of their weapons in Dec of 2005, the design changed how they build the dust cover/serial number area. This led to less flex in the frame in that area. The older guns had a serial# plate that protruded from the frame like a big staple, the new frames had the plate imbedded in the plastic about 1/10” or so.

This frame change led to a repeat of the same issue that first popped up back when the finger groove/rail guns (FGR) first came out and folks started hanging lights on the guns.
History lesson for folks who don’t know; When the FGR guns first came out the .40s started to have fails to feed issues due to the light being on the dust cover rail. The lights took some of the frame flex out of the system during recoil, this led to greater slide velocity and thus fails to feed issues due to the slide running so fast that the mag springs could not keep up. The fix back then was the 11 coil magazine spring.

The problems we had WERE NOT the same issue, we had brand new mags with 11 coil springs, the new issue was the same in effect (fails to feed) but was caused by the frame redesign which brought less flex to the system, thus when a light (or sometimes not) was hung on the gun there was even less flex and the 11 coil mag springs still couldn’t keep up with the greater slide velocity.

I deduced that our issue was excessive slide velocity. Months later this was confirmed for me in conversation XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. XXXXXXXXX advised that they had done some high speed camera work and found that slide velocity was in fact the issue. I suspected frame bounce (much like bolt bounce in M4 carbines) but XXXXX is of the opinion that the stripper rail underneath the slide causes the rounds in the mag to be pushed down so fast that by the time the slide is coming forward again the mag spring has not been able to feed the rounds back up to the feedlips, thus the top round stubs into the front of the mag tube never reaching the feed ramp.

This is the same issue as described by many other departments to me, most recently last month by a Sgt. from Milwaukee PD (they have about 900 G22s that don’t work).

What I have found;

Lower recoil and intensity ammo will work almost all of the time. Specifically the 180gr Ranger-T and the FBI spec 165gr Gold Dot seem to work for almost everyone almost all of the time. We did have a few guns that would not run with the Ranger-T with lights mounted on the guns though.

Heavier recoil springs; I found that the Wolff springs with the SS guide rod made a difference. The heavier 20 and 22lb springs (as I recall without notes) cured the issue, most of the time, for most shooters, with most ammo.

I am told that the 14 coil ISMI mag springs also work, but that you lose one round from the magazine capacity.

Whatever the attempted fix I have found that the factory recoil springs on the Glock .40s should not be allowed to go more than 3000 rounds without being changed, as in ever. I recommend swapping springs after 2000 just to be safe.

The issue with the guns is simple; excessive slide velocity. The cause is, IMHO, a design flaw in the weapon system. The Glock small frame guns were made to be 9mms, which they absolutely excel at. I firmly believe that the G17 may be the most reliable handgun ever made, mine run like an AK47, every ammo, dirty or not, light mounted or not, etc.

Even in the guns that actually work the Glock .40s (and .357Sigs as well) suffer from the frame gun not being made to handle the beating it takes, much like the old S&W model 66 didn’t hold up to being shot with .357mag ammo in the long run, thus the 686 being developed.

There is more, but I have to make it upstairs to my Lt. promotion interview now.

Let me know what else you need and what else I can do to help out.

Chuck




Since that time I had occasion to run a G37 with a .40S&W conversion barrel in it, it ran great, light or not light. I figured it would since one of my experiments back in 2006 was to hot glue bird shot to the slide of a G22 that was having issues in order to get the slide weight up. That actually worked rather well to get the slide slowed down enough for the gun to feed, even with a light mounted.

Back then I told the Glock rep they needed to do one of two things, chamber the GAP pistols in .40 and call it good, or take the double nested RSA design from the G26/27 and apply it to the full sized guns. The heavier slide would be the way to go IMHO. Note when the M4 system was having issues they invented heavier buffers, they didn't build a stouter recoil spring. We know which route they chose (note, I am not claiming to have invented the idea of the gen 4 Glocks, but it's pretty simple engineering really, so even this knuckledragger could figure it out)

[Prdator]

Im glad to see that the problem dosent seem to be on the G35's Ive ran the gen 4 G35 since I could get one.. and that one is flat wore out now... They have always been very reliable for me.

[JHC]

Ha! The father of the GEN 4 is outed! ;) Denials notwithstanding. Great read.

[GJM]

My gut says if you want a .357 Sig, the 229 is the platform to launch it from.

[Chuck Haggard]

My gut says if you want a .357 Sig, the Glock 20 is the platform to launch it from.


Fixed that for you

[1slow]

Chuck thanks for that clear concise summary on Glock 40.

[45dotACP]

That was a heck of a read Chuck. Very informative

[Prdator]

Chuck

any thougths on the Fed 165 Tactical bonded? it runs like 950 ish IIRC ? Givens gave me some a year or so back, Some big PD back East issues it. and the G22 I think.

[gtmtnbiker98]

My gut says if you want a .357 Sig, the 229 is the platform to launch it from.

..and .40 for that matter.

[BLR]

Some thoughts -

The excessive wear (I don't like the term "wear" as it doesn't really describe the situation correctly) is not a function of pressure. Pressure would result in barrel or locking surface failure, which isn't the case. The issue is excessive slide velocity and early (again, it's not really "early", but that can be argued) as a result of the principals of striker fired firearm operation.

A little while ago, I said in a thread that if HK was really "over engineered" they would make use of the energy dissipated by cocking the hammer rather than simply adapt the SIG operating principal. Like it or not, and you can argue this all you like, the SIG design is the HK design and so on. It dissipates little to no energy through cocking the hammer. This is a direct result of trying to make the gun easier to cock with the slide, rather than thumb cock the gun.

While on the surface, that seems like a reasonable goal to strive for, it serves to necessarily increase the slide mass significantly. This is germane to the discussion because these guns, the striker fired guns and the SIG principal guns are essentially the same operating theory. Initial slide velocity (the most important when it comes to the 40Cal failures discussed) is determined not by spring constant (aka "spring weight") rather by slide mass (if you don't believe this, I suggest looking up Hook's Law). Unlocking time is determined by slide mass and the locking block position/geometry. This is how one could easily dismiss the M&P accuracy issues as NOT "early unlocking". Weigh a 9mm M&P slide, a G17 slide, and compare rearward travel before unlocking.

So, the issue really boils down to initial slide velocity. Increasing the recoil spring weight will reduce the final slide velocity, but not a thing for the durability issue. In fact, it will actually serve to hinder durability, as slide velocity will increase in the area that causes one of the stress components of the locking block pins to increase. So, that's not a great solution.

With striker fired/SIG design guns, the real solution is to match slide mass and unlocking geometry, not spring weight. The pressure difference between a 9mm and 40 just isn't causing any real issues. It's the momentum/energy difference. A 40 might as well be a 45 wrt the slide/frame. Especially with lighter, higher energy bullets.

The reason the 1911 gets away with 45/10mm/9mm use, is that the majority of the energy is dissipated through cocking the hammer. While it's popular to slam Browning, dude was a great engineer. The original 1911 had a flat bottom FPS, and it wasn't until (IIRC) the Marines complained the gun was too hard to rack with the hammer down, did a radiused FPS get used. Maybe you don't like the weight/mag capacity/whatever, but we certainly haven't progressed (in my not so humble opinion) mechanically since 1911. Materials, sure.

It really is all about energy/momentum management. Not pressure. Not RSAs.

[Wondering Beard]

Chuck

any thougths on the Fed 165 Tactical bonded? it runs like 950 ish IIRC ? Givens gave me some a year or so back, Some big PD back East issues it. and the G22 I think.

I have some from the mid to late 00s and they ran at about 1065 fps out of my G23.

[jetfire]

Some thoughts -

The excessive wear (I don't like the term "wear" as it doesn't really describe the situation correctly) is not a function of pressure. Pressure would result in barrel or locking surface failure, which isn't the case. The issue is excessive slide velocity and early (again, it's not really "early", but that can be argued) as a result of the principals of striker fired firearm operation.

A little while ago, I said in a thread that if HK was really "over engineered" they would make use of the energy dissipated by cocking the hammer rather than simply adapt the SIG operating principal. Like it or not, and you can argue this all you like, the SIG design is the HK design and so on. It dissipates little to no energy through cocking the hammer. This is a direct result of trying to make the gun easier to cock with the slide, rather than thumb cock the gun.

While on the surface, that seems like a reasonable goal to strive for, it serves to necessarily increase the slide mass significantly. This is germane to the discussion because these guns, the striker fired guns and the SIG principal guns are essentially the same operating theory. Initial slide velocity (the most important when it comes to the 40Cal failures discussed) is determined not by spring constant (aka "spring weight") rather by slide mass (if you don't believe this, I suggest looking up Hook's Law). Unlocking time is determined by slide mass and the locking block position/geometry. This is how one could easily dismiss the M&P accuracy issues as NOT "early unlocking". Weigh a 9mm M&P slide, a G17 slide, and compare rearward travel before unlocking.

So, the issue really boils down to initial slide velocity. Increasing the recoil spring weight will reduce the final slide velocity, but not a thing for the durability issue. In fact, it will actually serve to hinder durability, as slide velocity will increase in the area that causes one of the stress components of the locking block pins to increase. So, that's not a great solution.

With striker fired/SIG design guns, the real solution is to match slide mass and unlocking geometry, not spring weight. The pressure difference between a 9mm and 40 just isn't causing any real issues. It's the momentum/energy difference. A 40 might as well be a 45 wrt the slide/frame. Especially with lighter, higher energy bullets.

The reason the 1911 gets away with 45/10mm/9mm use, is that the majority of the energy is dissipated through cocking the hammer. While it's popular to slam Browning, dude was a great engineer. The original 1911 had a flat bottom FPS, and it wasn't until (IIRC) the Marines complained the gun was too hard to rack with the hammer down, did a radiused FPS get used. Maybe you don't like the weight/mag capacity/whatever, but we certainly haven't progressed (in my not so humble opinion) mechanically since 1911. Materials, sure.

It really is all about energy/momentum management. Not pressure. Not RSAs.

2708

[JHC]

Some thoughts -

The excessive wear (I don't like the term "wear" as it doesn't really describe the situation correctly) is not a function of pressure. Pressure would result in barrel or locking surface failure, which isn't the case. The issue is excessive slide velocity and early (again, it's not really "early", but that can be argued) as a result of the principals of striker fired firearm operation.

A little while ago, I said in a thread that if HK was really "over engineered" they would make use of the energy dissipated by cocking the hammer rather than simply adapt the SIG operating principal. Like it or not, and you can argue this all you like, the SIG design is the HK design and so on. It dissipates little to no energy through cocking the hammer. This is a direct result of trying to make the gun easier to cock with the slide, rather than thumb cock the gun.

While on the surface, that seems like a reasonable goal to strive for, it serves to necessarily increase the slide mass significantly. This is germane to the discussion because these guns, the striker fired guns and the SIG principal guns are essentially the same operating theory. Initial slide velocity (the most important when it comes to the 40Cal failures discussed) is determined not by spring constant (aka "spring weight") rather by slide mass (if you don't believe this, I suggest looking up Hook's Law). Unlocking time is determined by slide mass and the locking block position/geometry. This is how one could easily dismiss the M&P accuracy issues as NOT "early unlocking". Weigh a 9mm M&P slide, a G17 slide, and compare rearward travel before unlocking.

So, the issue really boils down to initial slide velocity. Increasing the recoil spring weight will reduce the final slide velocity, but not a thing for the durability issue. In fact, it will actually serve to hinder durability, as slide velocity will increase in the area that causes one of the stress components of the locking block pins to increase. So, that's not a great solution.

With striker fired/SIG design guns, the real solution is to match slide mass and unlocking geometry, not spring weight. The pressure difference between a 9mm and 40 just isn't causing any real issues. It's the momentum/energy difference. A 40 might as well be a 45 wrt the slide/frame. Especially with lighter, higher energy bullets.

The reason the 1911 gets away with 45/10mm/9mm use, is that the majority of the energy is dissipated through cocking the hammer. While it's popular to slam Browning, dude was a great engineer. The original 1911 had a flat bottom FPS, and it wasn't until (IIRC) the Marines complained the gun was too hard to rack with the hammer down, did a radiused FPS get used. Maybe you don't like the weight/mag capacity/whatever, but we certainly haven't progressed (in my not so humble opinion) mechanically since 1911. Materials, sure.

It really is all about energy/momentum management. Not pressure. Not RSAs.

Very cool. Question: how does a G27 run as well or better than a G22 - although one cannot hang a light off of a G27 to match the G22 WML failures, it's slide velocity should be much greater right? Its short frame may be stiffer.

[JR1572]

Very cool. Question: how does a G27 run as well or better than a G22 - although one cannot hang a light off of a G27 to match the G22 WML failures, it's slide velocity should be much greater right? Its short frame may be stiffer.

My guess is the combination of the shorter, stiffer frame and the RSA is why they work so well. My dad has my old G3 27 (which I got used in 1999) and that gun has never given us any trouble.

That's just my guess. If I'm wrong, I hope someone will let me know why.

JR1572

[BigT]

How many 27's actually get shot enough to tell? The vast majority I come across are carried lots and shot little.

[JHC]

How many 27's actually get shot enough to tell? The vast majority I come across are carried lots and shot little.

They run pretty well. I shot the hell out of one and about ruined the nerves in my right hand with it in the '90's. They have a pretty good rep.

[Chuck Haggard]

Chuck

any thougths on the Fed 165 Tactical bonded? it runs like 950 ish IIRC ? Givens gave me some a year or so back, Some big PD back East issues it. and the G22 I think.

Indianapolis Metro has used that loading for years I am told, and to good effect. I am also told they haven't had the issues that many other PDs have had with the G22, so the mid-range velocity is my guess as to why. I have not had a chance to try that ammo myself, although I tested damn near every other .40 load on the planet.

[Chuck Haggard]

Thanks Bill, that confirms what I was suspecting from my translating the dynamics of what was going on from my experience with the M4 system.

Again I'll note that the "fix" for many of the M4's problems was not a stronger magazine spring, or recoil spring, it was a heavier buffer. The H and H2, etc., exist for good reasons.

I really think Glock missed the boat not turning the GAP models into .40s and calling it a day.

[WilsonCombatRep]

Great thread. As an aside, my XD longslide ammo test gun in .357 SIG works great!

[Fire-Medic]

Thanks Bill, that confirms what I was suspecting from my translating the dynamics of what was going on from my experience with the M4 system.

Again I'll note that the "fix" for many of the M4's problems was not a stronger magazine spring, or recoil spring, it was a heavier buffer. The H and H2, etc., exist for good reasons.

I really think Glock missed the boat not turning the GAP models into .40s and calling it a day.

A Gen 4 G21/G20 size gun chambered in 40SW would appeal to many folks as well, but I can understand the need for the pistol to fit a broader audience with the smaller grip.

This will most likely be my next Glock pursuit when funds allow. Buying a G20 Gen 4 and getting a 40SW conversion barrel fit to it. I have had the chance to fire this combo in a Gen 3 in the past and it was very pleasant to handle and shoot. It would also in my humble and non professional opinion be a hit with the competition guys who could have a much softer shooting 40 with physically bigger magazines to grab hold of and a much larger mag well area. I would imagine being able to shoot that in SSP or Production would go a long ways with many guys. I am also aware that the comp guys make up a small minority compared to the LE market but I would just see that model as a win win for LEO and Civilian/Comp guys alike.

[Chuck Haggard]

I have a friend with a G20 with a Robar grip reduction, he also has a .40 and a .357 barrel fitted to the gun. That is a very nice .40

Jim Cirillo told me that he thought the .40 should have never been shoe-horned into the 9mm guns, that it needed a larger frame. Jim was a pretty smart guy.


I think a G35 without the slide cut-out on top would also be a good .40/.357 platform.

[ranger]

I have a Gen 3 Glock 20 with KKM conversion barrel to 40. Put the combo together to shoot Limited Class in USPSA. There are several threads on competition oriented forums about the G20 in 40 for Limited.

[Fire-Medic]

I have a friend with a G20 with a Robar grip reduction, he also has a .40 and a .357 barrel fitted to the gun. That is a very nice .40

Jim Cirillo told me that he thought the .40 should have never been shoe-horned into the 9mm guns, that it needed a larger frame. Jim was a pretty smart guy.


I think a G35 without the slide cut-out on top would also be a good .40/.357 platform.

I'm no expert but I would agree with him on that statement. You won't have issues beating up a setup built for 10MM.........

[Kimura]

I have a Gen 3 Glock 20 with KKM conversion barrel to 40. Put the combo together to shoot Limited Class in USPSA. There are several threads on competition oriented forums about the G20 in 40 for Limited.

What do you use for mags? I thought the 40 round was too short for 10mm mags, how do you compensate for that?

[Fire-Medic]

What do you use for mags? I thought the 40 round was too short for 10mm mags, how do you compensate for that?

Load them longer if needed

[ranger]

What do you use for mags? I thought the 40 round was too short for 10mm mags, how do you compensate for that?

They run fine in the G20 mags so far at normal 40 length or you can load longer if your conversion barrel will accept the longer loaded bullets. You can also use heavier bullets - 200s and 220s.

[Jeep]

I have a friend with a G20 with a Robar grip reduction, he also has a .40 and a .357 barrel fitted to the gun. That is a very nice .40

Jim Cirillo told me that he thought the .40 should have never been shoe-horned into the 9mm guns, that it needed a larger frame. Jim was a pretty smart guy.


I think a G35 without the slide cut-out on top would also be a good .40/.357 platform.

My guess is that the .40 is not going to be a huge focus going forward. Instead, I think the world is going to go increasingly to the 9mm and is going to standardize there, which should also result in 9mm ammo becoming even cheaper compared to other calibers. If that happens, more people will move to the 9mm.

I don't think the .40 is a bad round at all--M&P's and 229s launch them well--and it offers some advantages over 9mm, but as those advantages become increasingly marginal standardization around the 9 seems to me to be probably inevitable. Which is a long way of saying that I tend to doubt that Glock will keep putting a lot of work into .40 guns. We'll see.

[JHC]

My guess is that the .40 is not going to be a huge focus going forward. Instead, I think the world is going to go increasingly to the 9mm and is going to standardize there, which should also result in 9mm ammo becoming even cheaper compared to other calibers. If that happens, more people will move to the 9mm.

I don't think the .40 is a bad round at all--M&P's and 229s launch them well--and it offers some advantages over 9mm, but as those advantages become increasingly marginal standardization around the 9 seems to me to be probably inevitable. Which is a long way of saying that I tend to doubt that Glock will keep putting a lot of work into .40 guns. We'll see.

Won't that be wild when it becomes a niche round for action pistol sports and maybe as a semiauto option as a woods pistol. Oh how the mighty have fallen sort of thing. I thought it was pretty phenomenal shooting a friends 2011 in .40.

[psalms144.1]

My guess is that the .40 is not going to be a huge focus going forward. Instead, I think the world is going to go increasingly to the 9mm and is going to standardize there, which should also result in 9mm ammo becoming even cheaper compared to other calibers. If that happens, more people will move to the 9mm. Wouldn't it be a kick in the rear if the new MHS the Army's working on ends up as a .40 S&W, and CONUS LE goes "back" to 9mm? "But, but, the SEALS use .40, it must be better!" "No, the FBI uses 9mm, they know what they're doing!" "No, if it's not a 45 American Communist Perforator, it's going to get you killed on da streetz! The muzzle blast from a Fohtay Fahv will knock people down in the 45 degree arc in front of the muzzle!"

I can't wait!

[MD7305]

I imagine it's fairly tight lipped but wasn't 1st SFOD-D using G22s (or was it G35)? I wonder what their experience with the platform has been?

[Chuck Haggard]

Many of the .40s you have heard of may have had an optic mounted. Adding an optic to a pistol slide would add weight...........


Although the intardnets like to claim otherwise, I'd bet money the .mil never goes to anything except 9mm for standard issue. Special guys will always get what they want at times. I know of a case where a large purchase was made of Glock 20s and a bunch of FMJFP right after 9/11, the unit involved had the money to pull it off, and no one stopped them from doing so. Still, not a smart move IMHO

[ranger]

When I was in Iraq, my Infantry unit operated adjacent to multiple Special Operations units (not just Army but multiple DOD Spec Ops). At that time and in that limited experience, I saw Special Operations soldiers of multiple branches carry a variety of pistols - many M9s, some Glocks (small frame - not sure if 9, 357SIG, or 40), some 1911s, and some SIGs.

If - and I emphasize if - DOD invests in a new pistol I suspect it will be 9mm and a key requirement will be ergonomics to best support our diverse staffing. The Special Operations forces I suspect have access to whatever weapons systems best meet their requirements.

[Chuck Haggard]

There are a lot of G19s being carried by folks in the US military

[MD7305]

Many of the .40s you have heard of may have had an optic mounted. Adding an optic to a pistol slide would add weight....

Thanks, I wasn't aware those particular guns had a mounted RDS. My info on that topic is solely what I've read on the "error-net." But you've given me an idea...Heaven forbid our G22s start getting fussy but if they do I'll push for RDS to be mounted on all guns! (That's a joke of course, or the chief would think so at least).

[Lester Polfus]

What do you use for mags? I thought the 40 round was too short for 10mm mags, how do you compensate for that?

I put many, many thousands of rounds through a Glock 20 with a .40 conversion barrel with nary an issue. I always thought the Glock 20 made a much better .40 gun than the Glock 22.

[El Cid]

I imagine it's fairly tight lipped but wasn't 1st SFOD-D using G22s (or was it G35)? I wonder what their experience with the platform has been?

I was told by a reliable source earlier this year that they have transitioned to 9mm Glocks.

As for using optics in their pistols, it's also my understanding that the Safariland holster in Multicam with the optic shroud (DO models) was designed for that unit.

[Kimura]

Load them longer if needed


They run fine in the G20 mags so far at normal 40 length or you can load longer if your conversion barrel will accept the longer loaded bullets. You can also use heavier bullets - 200s and 220s.


I put many, many thousands of rounds through a Glock 20 with a .40 conversion barrel with nary an issue. I always thought the Glock 20 made a much better .40 gun than the Glock 22.

Thank you.

[JHC]

I was told by a reliable source earlier this year that they have transitioned to 9mm Glocks.

As for using optics in their pistols, it's also my understanding that the Safariland holster in Multicam with the optic shroud (DO models) was designed for that unit.

Have also heard that from folks who know some of those folks.

[Chuck Haggard]

My friend with the .40 and .357Sig barrels for his G20 just runs the stock 10mm mags without any problems.

[Mr_White]

The various FBI .40 loads that I have seen have all been downloaded. Back when we were having issues and I kept getting hit with "but the FBI isn't having any problems" and had to explain to one person after another that they had proprietary (and that time) secret NDA from Speer download 165gr Gold Dot running 950fps instead of 1185fps. That lighter loading made a huge difference.

I happened into some of the mid-velocity 165gr Gold Dot back when I shot .40. Very soft-shooting and very accurate. Did not expand well, especially through barriers, in my hobbyist level testing.

[psalms144.1]

I was told by a reliable source earlier this year that they have transitioned to 9mm Glocks.

As for using optics in their pistols, it's also my understanding that the Safariland holster in Multicam with the optic shroud (DO models) was designed for that unit.Last time I spoke with people who know, I was told they were moving considering the switch back to G19s for high capacity, and 1911s for precision work. I'm unfortunately not in a position anymore to confirm with any greater certainty...

[jetfire]

There are a lot of G19s being carried by folks in the US military

I'm pretty sure a pistol without a manual safety/visible hammer would give someone at the Army Ordnance board (is that still a thing?) a pretty bad fit of the vapors.

ETA: were it to offered for adoption by the entire force and not just special warriorbros.

[Jeep]

I'm pretty sure a pistol without a manual safety/visible hammer would give someone at the Army Ordnance board (is that still a thing?) a pretty bad fit of the vapors.

ETA: were it to offered for adoption by the entire force and not just special warriorbros.

Having seen too many soldiers killed in too many stupid accidents during my time in the Army (admittedly, a time when the accidental death rate was much higher than now), I would be worried about any weapon without a manual safety being made general issue as well.

Now Glock could, and has, put a manual safety on a G19 . . . .

However, in the end, with the administration dedicated to pushing defense spending down to just about 2% of GDP, I don't think we are going to see anything but well-worn M9's for decades to come.

As for the JSOC and Socom units, they will get the money to buy what they need, but if they shoot Glocks I'd expect them to keeping heading to 9mm's, if they shoot SIGs, I think those will stay 9mm, and if they use 1911's or H&K .45(c)'s, I imagine that those will stay in the inventory for a while but that normal usage will be 9mm.

[dbateman]

I have been doing a little research, but haven't really found an answer. I don't think my question warrants it's own thread, so I thought I would ask it here.


Have the latter gen4 G22 fixed the issues that have been mentioned in this thread ?
I ask because I have an opportunity to buy a new(ish) production G22 for a good price, and I am wondering whether it's worth a buying or not.

[Jeep]

I have been doing a little research, but haven't really found an answer. I don't think my question warrants it's own thread, so I thought I would ask it here.


Have the latter gen4 G22 fixed the issues that have been mentioned in this thread ?
I ask because I have an opportunity to buy a new(ish) production G22 for a good price, and I am wondering whether it's worth a buying or not.

My quick answer is that if you get it at a good price and it is not an early Gen 4, and if you mainly shoot 180 gr. loads through it, you probably won't regret it. Some early Gen 4's had lots of problems, of course, and hot loads and .40 cal. Glocks don't seem to be a good combination. Even then, though, there are folks who fire nothing but hot loads and haven't and any problems with their particular pistols.

[dbateman]

Thanks, I will mainly be running factory ammo and the odd reload.

I'm not interested in hotroding it.

[LSP972]

My guess is that the .40 is not going to be a huge focus going forward. Instead, I think the world is going to go increasingly to the 9mm...

You and your crystal ball…;)

So, dust it off and tell us who's going to be the next president.

.

[Nephrology]

My quick answer is that if you get it at a good price and it is not an early Gen 4, and if you mainly shoot 180 gr. loads through it, you probably won't regret it. Some early Gen 4's had lots of problems, of course, and hot loads and .40 cal. Glocks don't seem to be a good combination. Even then, though, there are folks who fire nothing but hot loads and haven't and any problems with their particular pistols.

How early is early? I picked up a Gen 4 G35 that was probably made in 4/2012, haven' had the change to put a ton of ammo through it. I've had 1 malfunction so far (of only ~250) but that was most likely shooteri nduced.

[Jeep]

How early is early? I picked up a Gen 4 G35 that was probably made in 4/2012, haven' had the change to put a ton of ammo through it. I've had 1 malfunction so far (of only ~250) but that was most likely shooteri nduced.

2012 should be ok.

[Jeep]

You and your crystal ball…;)

So, dust it off and tell us who's going to be the next president.

.

Joe Biden. Expect him to declare war (without remembering to ask Congress) on a friendly country that he has mistaken for an enemy within days of taking office. It will be a fun filled four years!

[LSP972]

Joe Biden. Expect him to declare war (without remembering to ask Congress) on a friendly country that he has mistaken for an enemy within days of taking office. It will be a fun filled four years!

LOL.

.

[Drang]

Joe Biden. Expect him to declare war (without remembering to ask Congress) on a friendly country that he has mistaken for an enemy within days of taking office. It will be a fun filled four years!

No worries. Steven Harper will just discharge a side-by-side in the air and President Biden will order a retreat.

[Kyle Reese]

Joe Biden. Expect him to declare war (without remembering to ask Congress) on a friendly country that he has mistaken for an enemy within days of taking office. It will be a fun filled four years!

Bernie Sanders. He'll lament that we have too many deodorant (https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2015/05/30/bernie-sanders-deodorant-comment-ignores-realities-economic-growth/2OfPVj77EsJlZiPSeH1kQN/story.html), pretty much dismantle the Armed Forces and exponentially expand the welfare state.

***Sorry for the thread drift, couldn't resist***

[deputyG23]

Are there any known issues with Gen 3 or Gen 4 Glock 23s? My agency issues Gen 3 and has just bought 50+ Gen 4 versions.

[Nephrology]

Are there any known issues with Gen 3 or Gen 4 Glock 23s? My agency issues Gen 3 and has just bought 50+ Gen 4 versions.

I know that the Gen 3 pistols were known to have feeding issues when run with weapon mounted lights (see earlier posts). Not sure about Gen 4.

[Jeep]

I know that the Gen 3 pistols were known to have feeding issues when run with weapon mounted lights (see earlier posts). Not sure about Gen 4.

The early Gen 4's certainly had issues in feeding and extraction, which the new ejector seems to have helped with. Some, at least, also had trouble with excessive slide velocity from hot rounds. I don't know whether that issue has been fixed or not, but I'd feel more comfortable with 180 grain rounds instead of 165's or 155's.

[deputyG23]

We do not use weapon mounted lights and use Winchester 180 grain Ranger T for duty. The guns have worked fine with this ammo and the 180 grain flat point Winchester practice rounds.
We had a locking block break during a basic academy range session about a month ago. Glock rep quickly sent a replacement and the gun is back on line. That being said, our Gen 3s are ten years old and will hopefully be traded sometime this fiscal year to standardize on Gen 4 models.

[SLG]

We do not use weapon mounted lights and use Winchester 180 grain Ranger T for duty. The guns have worked fine with this ammo and the 180 grain flat point Winchester practice rounds.
We had a locking block break during a basic academy range session about a month ago. Glock rep quickly sent a replacement and the gun is back on line. That being said, our Gen 3s are ten years old and will hopefully be traded sometime this fiscal year to standardize on Gen 4 models.

The G23 has never, in any generation, been as reliable as the G22. The Gen4's are much better, but usually fail with lights at a much higher rate than the G22. If you don't use lights, you may get away with them. Then again, you may not.

I carry a Gen4 G22 by choice, fwiw.

[Up1911Fan]

I carry a Gen4 G22 by choice, fwiw.

Just for work, or on your own time as well?

[Jeep]

The G23 has never, in any generation, been as reliable as the G22. The Gen4's are much better, but usually fail with lights at a much higher rate than the G22. If you don't use lights, you may get away with them. Then again, you may not.

I carry a Gen4 G22 by choice, fwiw.

What weight round do you use?

[deputyG23]

The G23 has never, in any generation, been as reliable as the G22. The Gen4's are much better, but usually fail with lights at a much higher rate than the G22. If you don't use lights, you may get away with them. Then again, you may not.

I carry a Gen4 G22 by choice, fwiw.
Thanks for your response. I am being issued a Gen 4 tomorrow.

[DocGKR]

SLG should currently be issued a Win 180 gr bonded.

[JonInWA]

This is an incredibly informative and useful thread-many thanks to all the SMEs and participants who contributed.

Best, Jon