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NorthernHeat
10-24-2014, 04:06 PM
What say yall?

I am getting rid of my Kahr CM9 as I prefer a revolver for pocket carry as a backup on duty.

On duty gun is a Glock 34 and I was debating a 26 on the ankle but prefer to keep my backup at the waistline (pocket) rather than the ankle.

Debating between the S&W 442 No Lock or the LCR in 9mm...

Be Safe

Chuck Haggard
10-24-2014, 04:48 PM
The 442 is a proven reliable system, the new 9mm Ruger less so. I have learned over the years to not risk my life on gear that I am doing unpaid beta testing for the manufacturer.

Me? I'd have a G26 on my ankle and the 442 in my pocket.

KevH
10-24-2014, 04:54 PM
The 442 and its ancestors have been around for a very long time. They simply work. I carry in my pocket in a Kramer holster and/or a Renegade ankle holster.

9mm in revolvers can be somewhat problematic with extraction, even with moon clips

I'm not a fan of ankle carry in uniform and it presents some defensive tactics issues when you're fighting with someone.

NorthernHeat
10-24-2014, 05:02 PM
The 442 is a proven reliable system, the new 9mm Ruger less so. I have learned over the years to not risk my life on gear that I am doing unpaid beta testing for the manufacturer.

Me? I'd have a G26 on my ankle and the 442 in my pocket.

Having said that and having about $400, would you go with the 26 on the ankle first or the 442 in the pocket first?

The other will probably be bought a little down the road...

I really like the idea of that setup if I have both guns.

If I only have one backup, I might prefer it in the pocket to start though....

KeeFus
10-24-2014, 05:17 PM
442 all day. Reliable & proven.

ST911
10-24-2014, 09:17 PM
If starting anew, I'd grab a lock-less 642 instead of the 442, but either over the LCR.

NorthernHeat
10-24-2014, 11:00 PM
If starting anew, I'd grab a lock-less 642 instead of the 442, but either over the LCR.

Why the 642 over the 442?

Sigfan26
10-24-2014, 11:11 PM
If starting anew, I'd grab a lock-less 642 instead of the 442, but either over the LCR.

Both are proven, both are stainless. 442 is blackened, which is a plus.

NorthernHeat
10-24-2014, 11:53 PM
Ok,

I knew the 442 was black, but didn't know of any other differences that would make somebody pick the 642 over the 442...

Sigfan26
10-25-2014, 06:27 AM
Both are proven, both are stainless. 442 is blackened, which is a plus.

Correction, the 442 is a carbon steel cylinder. My bad.

LSP972
10-25-2014, 07:08 AM
Ok,

I knew the 442 was black, but didn't know of any other differences that would make somebody pick the 642 over the 442...

642 has a stainless cylinder/yoke, while the 442's cylinder/yoke is blued. 642 frame is clear-coated aluminum alloy. They have had issues in the past with that clear coat peeling off at wear points, which then causes the alloy to begin degrading if the gun is carried/used a lot. All of this was some years back, however… haven't heard of any recurrences. The 442's alloy frame is black-anodized.

.

Chuck Haggard
10-25-2014, 07:15 AM
Ref ankle carry; I've been carrying a BUG on my ankle for about 28 years now. Been in LOTS of foot pursuits and fights. Not so much now, but for quite awhile in the 1990s I consistently held the highest felony arrest rate on my department, and we were very busy. I have never had a problem with ankle carry, even when jumping fences and such. A good ankle rig is key to that being the case.

LSP972
10-25-2014, 08:13 AM
Funny anecdote…

I too carried a J frame in an ankle holster every day I spent in uniform. Not as many foot pursuits/fights as Chuck, probably (our Uniform Patrol guys mainly do traffic stuff), but enough to be confident in the technique and my chosen holster.

The only time it ever let go of the gun was during, of all places, the defensive tactics portion of an in-service class. Further funny thing about DT; they teach you all these exotic moves and techniques, but you see them a whole two times per year, so everybody ends up fighting just like they did in high school… but I digress.

One of those fancy kicks they were teaching was a sort of round-house with the shin to your opponent's common peroneal nerve. I was trying to do the technique right, secure in the knowledge that the next fight I got into would be just like the last one; grab whatever was handy for an impact weapon, or lacking same, punch/gouge/grab.

Anyway, my M-37 went skittering across the mats. There followed a great wailing and gnashing of teeth, because I had BROUGHT A LOADED GUN INTO A TRAINING SCENARIO!

Hey, I know the dangers of that, and I am not minimizing the reaction of the academy staffers present (add to that the fact that this occurred not very long after I left a long stint there as the FTU head).

My point here is two-fold:

One, my chosen ankle rig was/is so comfortable and unobtrusive that I simply forgot I had it on. I should have removed it prior to the class.

Two, I never had that happen though more than a few fights on the side of the road, several foot pursuits, more than a bit of climbing/contorting at bad wrecks with the Jaws, etc. I found it ironic that it DID happen with a defensive tactic technique.

My holster of choice is a Ken Null ANK, which is hand-molded to the specific gun out of horsehide. While it was/is superb, the moral of this story is that, for maximum security, one's ankle holster should have a retention strap.

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LSP552
10-25-2014, 08:23 AM
You can't go wrong with a no-lock 642 or 442. I have and use both. I've carried a backup gun on the ankle, in pants and jacket pockets, and in a ballistic vest holster. For me, ankle carry worked best except when wearing a jacket.

I REALLY wanted to like the G26 as a backup to my 17/34 but couldn't take the weight on my leg or vest. In theory, the G26 was perfect but I found it too heavy to carry all day, especially on the ankle. I know a bunch of folks who ankle carry the G26, so it might work for you. The 642/442, while not near as capable as the G26, just worked better for me. A speed strip in the pocket provides an easy to carry reload.

LSP972 and I bought probably the first two new 642s (no dash) to hit Baton Rouge in 1990 (?). I used them daily as a backup until I retired in 2008. They still see use in a pocket or on an ankle and should be in every serious gun person's inventory.

LSP552
10-25-2014, 08:33 AM
My holster of choice is a Ken Null ANK, which is hand-molded to the specific gun out of horsehide. While it was/is superb, the moral of this story is that, for maximum security, one's ankle holster should have a retention strap.

.

While I never kicked anyone with it, I have chased and whacked a felon or three while wearing it. Like Steve, I use the Ken Null ANK. After 20+ years, I finally wore mine out and ordered a replacement last month. Ken apologized for the two week wait for a hand made masterpiece.

Mike Pipes
10-25-2014, 09:55 AM
Chuck,which ankle rig do you prefer?...................cya retro

mosin46
10-25-2014, 06:50 PM
any opinions of a "lock" 642 or 442 having the lock disabled by a competent smith?

czech6
10-25-2014, 11:12 PM
any opinions of a "lock" 642 or 442 having the lock disabled by a competent smith?

I'm not nearly articulate to explain how to do it, but here's a pretty good video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVPYgohVCNM

Removing the lock will leave a small hole in the side of the frame. I wouldn't carry an internal lock gun on duty, and I wouldn't carry one with a safety removed either.

Chuck Haggard
10-26-2014, 05:05 AM
Chuck,which ankle rig do you prefer?...................cya retro

Depends on the gun. I have had good luck over the years with Don Hume, Galco, and oddly enough Uncles Mike's, although the UM rig is modified for my needs.

I greatly prefer a physical safety feature like a thumb break be present along with a good fit, holster molding alone doesn't cut it IMHO

LSP972
10-26-2014, 05:16 AM
any opinions of a "lock" 642 or 442 having the lock disabled by a competent smith?

You will see several different ways via the DIY YouTube crowd. There are only two "correct" ways that do not have the potential for grief down the road.

In the first place, detail-stripping a J frame, while not rocket surgery, does require a bit of patience and finesse. Basically, you either alter the mechanism or remove it entirely and install The Plug.

Some of these DIY videos tell you to simply remove the "flag", or locking plate. That surely deactivates the lock, but it also leaves a 1.5mm space for the remaining mechanism to work free under recoil and jam the revolver just as surely as the lock does. I found this out the hard way.

What needs to be done is to remove that "flag", grind off the nub on it which engages the hammer, and replace the flag. Then it will run until the cows come home with no worries.

Removing the whole bloody thing and installing The Plug is the best option, IMO. But you will probably have to knock the circular tumbler mechanism out of the frame with a punch, and that should be done VERY carefully.

You can find all sorts of opinions regarding "disabling a safety device". But these revolvers managed to work safely for over a hundred years without the lock.

.

Chuck Haggard
10-26-2014, 05:26 AM
This is why I refuse to buy a S&W with the lock, and the only one I kept is my 317

SWAT Lt.
10-26-2014, 08:42 AM
For the last 12 years of my career I carried a G27 as a backup to my issued G22. I carried it in an Alessi ankle holster and never had an issue. To the original question, I would opt for the 642/442 over the LCR 9mm. I carried a few of the S&W 940s over the years and, other then the cases sticking when the gun got a little dirty, I wasn't enamored with trying to carry extra moon clips for reloads. In fact, I had two piles of moon clips; one dedicated only to training and the other function tested, left loaded, and used only for carry. I prefer S&W revolvers but, like Chuck, would never carry one with the ILS. FYI, Buds Gun Shop has both the 642/442 without the ILS in stock: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/1799_1800_2020/Smith+%26+Wesson/

MD7305
10-26-2014, 12:36 PM
Also check G&R Tactical (not affiliated). I got my 442 from them last month on the LE pricing option. The savings were well worth the hassle of ordering one verses buying locally. Plus I had them install an Apex trigger kit for a few bucks more.

ST911
10-26-2014, 08:12 PM
Why the 642 over the 442?

Comparative corrosion potential with the latter, based on the posts that followed yours.

JR1572
10-26-2014, 08:49 PM
I've carried 637/642/442/G26/G27 on my ankle since 2001. I've carried them in holsters made by Fobus (yeah, really) Uncle Mike's, Shooting Systems, Galco, Don Hume, and Desantis. Never had any issues with any of them.

The 26/27 gets heavy and is a PITA in a holster that uses the elastic neoprene type material. I have a Fobus holster that I've used since 2001 and it's still in good shape. It's does a good job supporting and distributing the weight of those heavy little suckers.

For my 442 I'm currently using a Galco holster and it's fine. It came with the 442 that I got so cheap that it didn't even include an internal lock.

Oh, I had a 637 and 642 back in 03-08 and the finish completely flaked off of the backstraps of each of them. My current 442 has some shiny spots on it but I wipe it off daily so I doubt I will see any corrosion.

I was considering going to pocket carry for my BUG but these trousers my employer provide me with have small pockets and the butt of the 442 can be seen poking out of the pocket.

Sorry if I'm rambling...

JR1572

Chuck Whitlock
10-27-2014, 12:09 PM
my needs.

I greatly prefer a physical safety feature like a thumb break be present along with a good fit, holster molding alone doesn't cut it IMHO

+1




The 26/27 gets heavy and is a PITA in a holster that uses the elastic neoprene type material. I have a Fobus holster that I've used since 2001 and it's still in good shape. It's does a good job supporting and distributing the weight of those heavy little suckers.

At one time I carried a BUG G27 in a Fobus holster. It did do a good job of supporting and distributing the weight, however.......one day responding to back up another officer, as I stepped out of the Crown Vic I caught the butt of the Glock on the door sill and lifted it right out of the holster. I decided that any ankle rig I used from then on would have some type of active retention device. The Fobus rig was disassembled and the holster body converted to a mounted concealment usage in the bedroom.

Rich
11-07-2014, 07:48 AM
The 442 is a proven reliable system, the new 9mm Ruger less so. I have learned over the years to not risk my life on gear that I am doing unpaid beta testing for the manufacturer.

Me? I'd have a G26 on my ankle and the 442 in my pocket.

I`m with Chuck! That and I just love the J frame

Rich
11-07-2014, 08:11 AM
This is why I refuse to buy a S&W with the lock, and the only one I kept is my 317

So far I've been lucky with my M642. I trust it enough to use as a BUG.
I never use to key to lock it , but I do carry a key on my key ring.

I've sent emails to S&W and they claim they cant get it to happen??
Now I've seen one that was jammed up and the key couldn't unlock it. The dealer sent it in to S&W.
But they guys wasn't shooting it at the time.


I'm surprised that S&W doesn't drop the lock with all the dislike on all the forums.

The Fuzz
11-14-2014, 12:53 PM
During my career, I have tried the following: Glock 30, S&W 36, Glock 27, Glock 26, Kel Tec 3AT, Glock 23, S&W 442, and the Kahr CW9. The Glocks were to large for me and the Kel Tec was JUNK. The Kahr CW9 was good to go but I needed money, sadly. As I got older and a little smarter, I realized that the snubs trump the auto loaders in a BUG role at ECQB. I have dry fired a few 642's and found that the triggers seem to be smoother and lighter than the 442's. Unfortunately I had a 442 all ready. I ended up trading it for a S&W 640 Pro, that has been tuned by Denny at Sand Burr. It is a sweet shooting machine I tried the ankle rig but disliked it and carried it in a pants pocket in a pocket holster or in a holster in my outer vest cover. I like them a little higher so if I am fighting over my primary, I can deploy my snub and deliver a world of pain. FYI, I also carry two speed strips in a pager case for my snub...just in case.

Rich
12-10-2014, 09:50 AM
During my career, I have tried the following: Glock 30, S&W 36, Glock 27, Glock 26, Kel Tec 3AT, Glock 23, S&W 442, and the Kahr CW9. The Glocks were to large for me and the Kel Tec was JUNK. The Kahr CW9 was good to go but I needed money, sadly. As I got older and a little smarter, I realized that the snubs trump the auto loaders in a BUG role at ECQB. I have dry fired a few 642's and found that the triggers seem to be smoother and lighter than the 442's. Unfortunately I had a 442 all ready. I ended up trading it for a S&W 640 Pro, that has been tuned by Denny at Sand Burr. It is a sweet shooting machine I tried the ankle rig but disliked it and carried it in a pants pocket in a pocket holster or in a holster in my outer vest cover. I like them a little higher so if I am fighting over my primary, I can deploy my snub and deliver a world of pain. FYI, I also carry two speed strips in a pager case for my snub...just in case.

I wonder why the M442 & M642 have 2 different pull weights? Or feels smoother?

I prefer shooting the M640 and M649. But I cant pocket carry them they are just to heavy and I cant ankle carry since I don't wear pants here in SWF.

LSP972
12-10-2014, 11:45 AM
I wonder why the M442 & M642 have 2 different pull weights? Or feels smoother?



Many things can affect the pull weight of a DA revolver; no two are exactly alike. One thing that surprised me was this; after a lot of shooting and/or dry firing, MIM parts "smooth up" just as good as milled steel.

But things you cannot (SHOULD not) change, like the height/smoothness of the boss (bearing surface) on the hammer and trigger studs and their corresponding bosses on the side plate, age/strength of the main spring, etc., also play a big part in the overall feel of the action.

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JR1572
12-26-2014, 12:21 PM
Has anyone managed to get their hands on one of the 9mm LCR's?

JR1572

LSP972
12-26-2014, 02:08 PM
Has anyone managed to get their hands on one of the 9mm LCR's?

JR1572

I thought we had killed that idea via discussion??? Been into the Pennsylvania Dutch egg nog a bit, have you?:D

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GunRacer
12-26-2014, 02:12 PM
I'm not LE, but maybe I can help since I actually have a 9mm LCR.

I've been pocket carrying a 9mm LCR for the last month. My initial impressions are mostly positive. It has a nice, linear trigger pull with very little stacking. The replaceable stock sights are way better than S&W. I think it's definitely easier to shoot than a 642, but your milage may vary. I really dig the moon clips, and I don't understand the consternation over them. They are easy to load / unload and make reloads grossly faster over speed strips. I don't think they are a hassle to carry at all.

Cons: It weighs 4 oz heavier than the .38 model. At 17 oz unloaded it's on the heavy side for pocket carry without a belt. That said, I really don't think the extra weight matters in reality. Also, the stock Tamer grips are too big and tacky for pocket carry in my opinion. I've since ordered the factory Boot grip to replace it.

All of my competition and carry pistols are chambered in 9mm. I also reload 9mm exclusively. It just made sense for me to pick the LCR over a 642 / 442. I'm not interested in buying or reloading .38 for one or two guns.

Merry Christmas!

LSP972
12-26-2014, 02:24 PM
All of my competition and carry pistols are chambered in 9mm. I also reload 9mm exclusively. It just made sense for me to pick the LCR over a 642 / 442. I'm not interested in buying or reloading .38 for one or two guns.

Merry Christmas!

^This is the most sensible justification for a 9mm snubby (regardless of brand) that I've heard to date.

Given those parameters, if I were you I'd find some 147gr JHP (don't know of any 147gr hollow point molds, but a cast bullet would do too) and load me up some rhino rollers for that LCR… ;)

.

Erick Gelhaus
12-26-2014, 03:18 PM
I carried a 442 in a pocket holster for pushing 20 years as a BUG. As it is not available to me for carry, I've switched over to a 9mm Shield. While bigger than the LCP, it is concealable and accessible in a Mika pocket holster.

Skyviking
12-30-2014, 12:37 AM
I've carried various J-frames over the years as a BUG. Great little wheel guns, but strictly BUG duty. I started carrying a G27 as a BUG to my G22 and G23, then the G26 when we were forced to go to the issued G19 and G26. I carried the G26/27 in an Aker pocket holster for many vears, whenon duty and off. UNlike the J-frame, I never felt under-gunned when carrying it as a primary such as going to the local STOPnROB.
I would go with a G26 in a pocket holster and carry a G17 as a primary.

P.S.: If your employer-provided pants have pockets that are to "short" a good seamstress shop can sew in pockets the appropriate depth and material to carry the weight. The pants will pass inspection unless your supv. insists on sticking his/her hands in your pockets to check the "depth" (then you have other problems).

JodyH
12-30-2014, 07:12 PM
While researching the LCR 9mm I've come across a couple people complaining about their ammo jumping crimp and binding up the cylinder.
Something to test for and keep an eye on.

Symmetry
01-12-2015, 02:40 PM
While researching the LCR 9mm I've come across a couple people complaining about their ammo jumping crimp and binding up the cylinder.
Something to test for and keep an eye on.

Not surprised. A semi auto cartridge uses a taper grip which isn't as strong as the revolver cartridge roll crimp. You can only make a taper crimp so tight given that an auto cartridge head spaces off of the case mouth.

JR1572
01-12-2015, 04:03 PM
I read somewhere on the Internet this weekend that this is an issue with 115 grain ammo. I've also read that Ruger sent out paperwork with the LCR 9mm warning the use of lighter than 125 grain ammo in the LCR 9mm. I'll post that link if I find it.

JR1572

LSP972
01-13-2015, 08:17 AM
I've also read that Ruger sent out paperwork with the LCR 9mm warning the use of lighter than 125 grain ammo in the LCR 9mm. I'll post that link if I find it.

JR1572

S&W issues the same warning with the Ti-Scan .357 AirLite revolvers... right on the side of the barrel shroud.

FWIW, this is not a new phenomenon. Cooper mentioned it in one of his treatises on airweight snubbies... written in 1958.

.

JodyH
01-13-2015, 09:39 AM
The difference is most 9mm practice ammo is 115, most .38 and .357 is in the 130+ weight.

LSP972
01-13-2015, 09:51 AM
The difference is most 9mm practice ammo is 115, most .38 and .357 is in the 130+ weight.

Yes, but I believe Cooper was referring to 158 RNL and maybe 148 WC, since he based much of that writing on his experiences while at Quantico, liasing with the FBI. Of course, the Air Force had been using the 130 FMJ for a while, but talking with army CID types from that era, I was told the general-issue .38 cartridge for army types using revolvers was 158 RNL, up until Vietnam got rolling good. The reason, they said, was because the CID guys were considered non-combatants and thus not bound by the Geneva Accords FMJ rule.

All academic, to be sure... moral of the story, avoid light bullets in flyweight revolvers.

.

LSP972
01-13-2015, 11:44 AM
All academic, to be sure... moral of the story, avoid light bullets in flyweight revolvers.

.

And I'll add that, if one is reloading bunny farts for less-painful practice, light bullets are okay. I load 110gr JHPs over 4.0 grains of N340 with desired results. I use the feloniously expensive VitaVihouri (sp?) powder for this because it burns clean and leaves no unburnt residue; which can cause issues in small revolvers- and big ones too, in sufficient quantities. The usual suspects for "blasting ammo" powder (231, WST, Unique, etc.) leaves a lot of unburnt residue/mess at very low charge rates.

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Symmetry
01-13-2015, 12:48 PM
And I'll add that, if one is reloading bunny farts for less-painful practice, light bullets are okay. I load 110gr JHPs over 4.0 grains of N340 with desired results. I use the feloniously expensive VitaVihouri (sp?) powder for this because it burns clean and leaves no unburnt residue; which can cause issues in small revolvers- and big ones too, in sufficient quantities. The usual suspects for "blasting ammo" powder (231, WST, Unique, etc.) leaves a lot of unburnt residue/mess at very low charge rates.

.

I've found over the years that many of the cheaper spherical or flake powders do not even reliable burn up during detonation in various cartridges and loads. Cold temperatures generally cause even more powder to fail to burn. Not so with Vihtavuori powders. You get what you pay for, and in some ways you might be paying about the same for performance since you get less product waste with Vihtavuori.

LSP972
01-13-2015, 01:10 PM
I hear you, but please define "product waste".

IOW, charge weights (and/or volume) are roughly the same... the VV stuff just burns cleaner.

So I'm not totally tracking with you.

.

Symmetry
01-13-2015, 02:26 PM
I hear you, but please define "product waste".

IOW, charge weights (and/or volume) are roughly the same... the VV stuff just burns cleaner.

So I'm not totally tracking with you.

.

It has been my experience with reloading over the years, that large spherical or flake powders tend to not burn during detonation(particularly with lower pressure cartridges). The result is large amounts of unburned powder becoming lodged in the firearm or collection on the concrete shooting lane surface after firing. This is particularly apparent the colder the cartridge and outside temperature is. Shotgun powders are especially prone to this. Other than messy cleanup, the result is velocity loss which may or may not concern the shooter......not so when trying to make power factor. Essentially, wasted gun powder and money when unburned powder ends up on the ground instead of burning and enhancing performance.

LSP972
01-13-2015, 02:52 PM
It has been my experience with reloading over the years, that large spherical or flake powders tend to not burn during detonation(particularly with lower pressure cartridges). The result is large amounts of unburned powder becoming lodged in the firearm or collection on the concrete shooting lane surface after firing. This is particularly apparent the colder the cartridge and outside temperature is. Shotgun powders are especially prone to this. Other than messy cleanup, the result is velocity loss which may or may not concern the shooter......not so when trying to make power factor. Essentially, wasted gun powder and money when unburned powder ends up on the ground instead of burning and enhancing performance.

Gotcha. Concur.

.

idahojess
01-13-2015, 11:38 PM
Here is an article from John Farnham written about the 9mm bullet crimp issue, reprinted at the Truth About Guns (couple years old -- maybe there's more suitable rounds out there now.)

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/03/robert-farago/lightweight-revolvers-and-the-dangers-of-bullet-jump/