US Border Patrol rifle issue

[LittleLebowski]

http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/10/24/us-border-patrol-deadlining-rifles-at-a-rate-that-is-detrimental-to-officer-safety/

Second article is up:

http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/11/18/us-border-patrol-rifle-article-part-ii/

[Dave J]

That many rifles being deadlined makes me wonder if someone doesn't know the difference between a no-go gauge and a field gauge.

I saw that happen on a fairly large scale a few years ago, with a couple hundred M14's in an Army BCT being deadlined by support maintenance for excessive headspace. Magically, they were almost all good to go once the correct gauge was used.

[GJM]

What were the reasons the rifles were deadlined -- with that information, isn't it hard to conclude much?

[Dave J]

In the comments on the gunnuts page, the author states, "mainly failing no go gauges on the chamber and bent barrels"

I agree that's still not much information to go on.

[LittleLebowski]

In the comments on the gunnuts page, the author states, "mainly failing no go gauges on the chamber and bent barrels"

I agree that's still not much information to go on.

It's all I've got.

[GJM]

I bet department firearms, whether they be handgun or long gun, end up in much worse condition when shared, as compared to equipment issued to an individual officer.

[TGS]

I bet department firearms, whether they be handgun or long gun, end up in much worse condition when shared, as compared to equipment issued to an individual officer.

I'm talking to a close friend as I type this, who has been a border patrol agent in AZ since 2007, and he's saying about half the agents at his station have personally assigned rifles. I agree with you in theory, and he also said most of the assigned rifles are in good condition but the pool ones are "garbage and need to be replaced." he's also mentioning that just about nobody ever draws an M4. His words,


I guess. I'm wary of taking all this firepower with all these civil rights floating around.
What's more likely? You needing to shoot .223 at something or overheating/having a negligent discharge when you get into a scuffle or get hung up on a bush.
I can tell you that when I hike up a mountain, I'm scrambling to shed every ounce of weight I can. I'm still stuck with 20 lbs of shit though including my godawful uniform

Keep in mind he's a PT god. Now imagine the average agent, who isn't....

So, I can't imagine the rifles get used terribly much, causing their poor condition. I'm going to assume it's bad armory/cleaning practices. You really can ruin a rifle from bad cleaning.

He also added this:


If you want to look cool with your m4 as a cop, join swat.
then you too can be ------- useless

Which, is also an opinion I've heard voiced elsewhere. Seems like patrol carbines are a good option for patrol cops who can leave them in their vehicle, but he's stating that leaving an M4 in a vehicle, even with a gun lock, is against policy.

I thought these comments were interesting.

[Redhat]

Never mind...deleted

[Chuck Haggard]

That would be a seriously cultural and training issue

[HCM]

This is also very location dependent - the USBP isnt as monolithic as some might think. Different USBP sectors operate ... differently and have different cultures. Partially due to different operating conditions and partly due to management

Even here in TX there are differences between working in West Texas / New Mexico and working the Rio Grande Valley.

[HCM]

I also would not be surprised if the harpers ferry armorers referenced weren't retired military armorers.

[5pins]

There are three of us conduction the inspections. One is former Army and the other two former Marines.

There are several problems I have with this article. First off the person writing this article obviously has a bug up his butt about armorers and starts insulting them from the get go. The typical military armorer has had a two week class and is really just performing a supply function of handing out weapons. The three of us all started our carriers attending the small arms repair course in Aberdeen Proving Grounds and have had years of experience doing direct, general, and depot level maintenance.

I’m not at liberty to get into the detail of the inspections, but I want to make it very clear that we are doing this to get unserviceable weapons out of the field and get new ones back to them as quickly as possible. Some of the weapons are very old and way past their service life.

[LittleLebowski]

There are three of us conduction the inspections. One is former Army and the other two former Marines.

There are several problems I have with this article. First off the person writing this article obviously has a bug up his butt about armorers and starts insulting them from the get go. The typical military armorer has had a two week class and is really just performing a supply function of handing out weapons. The three of us all started our carriers attending the small arms repair course in Aberdeen Proving Grounds and have had years of experience doing direct, general, and depot level maintenance.

I’m not at liberty to get into the detail of the inspections, but I want to make it very clear that we are doing this to get unserviceable weapons out of the field and get new ones back to them as quickly as possible. Some of the weapons are very old and way past their service life.

I wrote the article and I have 8 years of dealing with Marines Corps armorers.

How quickly is your organization going to replace 40% of the rifles issued that are now deadlined? Do you dispute the fact that deadlining 40% of rifles issued to a organization that works with a standard of one rifle per three agents is a problem? Why are you and your colleagues complaining about lube choice and application of lube? Do you disagree with running rifles wet with lube? Did you know that Slip2k and TW25b have NSN #s?

[5pins]

I wrote the article and I have 8 years of dealing with Marines Corps armorers.

How quickly is your organization going to replace 40% of the rifles issued that are now deadlined? Do you dispute the fact that deadlining 40% of rifles issued to a organization that works with a standard of one rifle per three agents is a problem? Why are you and your colleagues complaining about lube choice and application of lube? Do you disagree with running rifles wet with lube? Did you know that Slip2k and TW25b have NSN #s?

I can’t talk for the other two of the people conduction the inspections, but I have never complained about what lube is used. Some of the stations I have inspected have had well lube and properly cleaned rifles other have had no cleaning supplies at all and I have deadlind a few because the BCG’s where so rusted the action could not be worked. I’m all for lube, any lube, but I’m seeing most with no lube at all.

Just because something has an NSN does not mean it’s authorized. The only authorized lubes, for the mil, are listed in the TM’s.

Would you prefer that unserviceable weapon stay in the field?

[Force Majeure]

I think he is saying that a bad rifle beats no rifle.

[5pins]

I think he is saying that a bad rifle beats no rifle.

Unless that rifle malfunctions and an agent is injured or killed then the headline would be “CBP issues unserviceable and dangers weapons and puts officers lives at risk.”

[Chad]

Unless that rifle malfunctions and an agent is injured or killed then the headline would be “CBP issues unserviceable and dangers weapons and puts officers lives at risk.”

I'm curious on how often is this type of inspection conducted? How many rifles were pulled from service last year from these stations?

[JMS]

bug up his butt about armorers and starts insulting them from the get go.

It's less about armorers than it is about the system/culture from which they matriculate, which is, across the various warrior institutions (keyword), a "don't fix it until it's broke" model. Process-driven, not product-driven. 12 years in, 4+ as an outside trainer (able to throw up the occasional social-finger salute at folks with multiple rockers and glittery stuff on their collars), which included a left-to-right/top-to-bottom sweep of every armory in the GCE...the US military's overall model holds true: successful because it's the least incompetent, not the most competent. The armorers that are genuinely proactive are hamstrung by a system/workflow/process that values lock-step over function; not their fault, but the results are what they are, regardless of any blame-storming one'd care to do.

As with so many other things, armorers end up being the "public" face of their commodity area to the end-users

Point being, I'd not make an attempt to alter your feelings toward what was said, but assert that what was said about the workaday mil armory/armorer isn't without objective merit.

Also, RE: "Would you prefer...?" No preferences were stated. A series of questions was asked, including "Do you dispute that deadlining 40% of of rifles issued to a organization that works with a standard of one rifle per three agents is a problem?" Perhaps a bit superfluous, as I'd have a hard time imagining that kind of failure rate to have been assessed while those doing the work belting out stanzas from that "Everything is Awesome" tune from the Lego Movie (how far off am I in presuming that you're probably personally and professionally appalled by it...?)...

...but it also didn't even suggest in the slightest that a known NO-GO weapon being put back in the field would be seen as preferred, or as a superlative, except by the bean-countingest of bean-counting Poindexters who's pockets are empty of f@@ks.

Oh....and except by those who haven't striven to be better than their public school reading programs....

You or your colleagues surely didn't go all Johnny Appleseed and create the situation. The situation, however, rates a few shots to the running lamps....though it should be borne in mind that the folks who ARE working in good faith to do what they can to expose OR fix it most likely rate remaining unpunched.

[Jeep]

Unless that rifle malfunctions and an agent is injured or killed then the headline would be “CBP issues unserviceable and dangers weapons and puts officers lives at risk.”

5pins: Fair enough, but to be fully fair the current headline would be "Agents Killed Because CBP Lacks Rifles to Give Them." In other words, no matter what is done here it could easily turn out badly.

Now, as an armorer, you have to do your job, and if a rifle is truly unserviceable you have no choice but to suggest it be pulled from service. However, if I were the local CBP commander I wouldn't agree to take rifles out of service if no replacements were available and I thought the defects weren't bad enough to justify immediate removal.

Nor would I care much about whether a lubricant was authorized. I've never been the CBP, but I spent enough time in the Army not to care what lubricants the Army authorized (we both never were supplied with such lubricants--we were expected to buy our own--and had to remove any trace of them before handing our rifles into the arms rooms in any case). What I would care about is that the rifles had enough lubricating oil/grease on them to keep working.

However, all of that is focusing on the details. The real issue here is that the CBP's current system for the maintenance of rifles is obviously not working. The agents might be irritated at you guys, and you guys irritated at the agents, but neither of you are responsible for the mess. This is a leadership issue. The system needs to be changed to help ensure that those rifles are properly maintained and available because in the long run the current system is going to get folks killed.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm hearing concerns from officers in the field about using pool rifles. Specifically liability. Just like what I wrote about and I'm getting more and more corroborating stories.

[John Hearne]

I've never understood pool rifles, I'd rather have a pool pistol than a pool rifle. A number of Federal LE agency authorize personal rifles, the BP currently allows personally owned pistols, so allowing an agent to carry their own acceptable rifle seems like a no-brainer to me.

[HCM]

I've never understood pool rifles, I'd rather have a pool pistol than a pool rifle. A number of Federal LE agency authorize personal rifles, the BP currently allows personally owned pistols, so allowing an agent to carry their own acceptable rifle seems like a no-brainer to me.

I agree with you that allowing agents to carry personally owned, agency approved weapons is a good idea across the board and individually issued equipment is optimal.

You may be thinking of U.S. ICE, which currently allows certain personally owned, agency approved handguns, but no personally owned long guns. To the best of my knowledge, U.S. CBP does not authorize any personally owned weapons for either Border Patrol Agents (BPA) or Customs and Border Protection Officers (CBPO).

Everyone must carry the issued HK P2000 LEM or P2000SK LEM 40 caliber on and off duty. The only other authorized handgun I'm aware of for CBP is the HK P30L LEMs recently adoped by BORTAC and those are also agency issue. If they want to carry another handgun off duty it must be carried pursuant to a state issued CHL.

It is also my understanding CBP LEOs are also required to use holsters listed on the CBP authorized holster list both on and off duty. This seems like a decent idea when you consider cops are generally cheap, but the list includes the SERPA so ........

Re: pool pistols - don't give them any ideas

[John Hearne]

Everyone must carry the issued HK P2000 LEM or P2000SK LEM 40 caliber on and off duty. The only other authorized handgun I'm aware of for CBP is the HK P30L LEMs recently adoped by BORTAC and those are also agency issue. If they want to carry another handgun off duty it must be carried pursuant to a state issued CHL.


Thanks for the update. The last time I checked, USBP was allowing agents to carry privately owned DAO P229's in lieu of the Beretta. Must have stopped with the HK's.

[HCM]

Thanks for the update. The last time I checked, USBP was allowing agents to carry privately owned DAO P229's in lieu of the Beretta. Must have stopped with the HK's.

That was in the INS days. USBP had 96D Brigadier .40s's with the option for DAO P-229's if your Chief approved since the 229 was the other winner of the INS 40 cal trials in the mid 90s. They were starting to issue / allow HK USP Compact LEM .40's when the DHS / CBP happened in 2003. After the DHS handgun tests in 2004, CBP went with the HK P2000 / P2000sk across the board.

[GJM]

That was in the INS days. USBP had 96D Brigadier .40s's with the option for DAO P-229's if your Chief approved since the 229 was the other winner of the INS 40 cal trials in the mid 90s. They were starting to issue / allow HK USP Compact LEM .40's when the DHS / CBP happened in 2003. After the DHS handgun tests in 2004, CBP went with the HK P2000 / P2000sk across the board.

Any insight why they picked the P2000 .40 over the USP C .40?

[5pins]

We are doing this for the agent out in the field so they can get what they need to do their job. But the only way correct a problem is to pinpoint the problem. The alternative is to put our heads in the sand and pretend that all is rosy.

[LittleLebowski]

We are doing this for the agent out in the field so they can get what they need to do their job. But the only way correct a problem is to pinpoint the problem. The alternative is to put our heads in the sand and pretend that all is rosy.

How long before you correct the roughly 40% of the rifles that have been taken out of usage? How long before the 11.5"s arrive? Will the UMPs be phased out then?

What should an agent do with a pool rifle he doesn't know the zero on? Do you find that acceptable?

[1slow]

I've never understood pool rifles, I'd rather have a pool pistol than a pool rifle. A number of Federal LE agency authorize personal rifles, the BP currently allows personally owned pistols, so allowing an agent to carry their own acceptable rifle seems like a no-brainer to me.

I had a very serious sniper tell me ''Your rifle is either in your hand or locked up, F'tards will diddle with the knobs /settings etc.... , when a shot goes through the wrong person because they diddled your rifle they will not own up to it and you are screwed."

[HCM]

Any insight why they picked the P2000 .40 over the USP C .40?

The modular grip / replaceable back straps. They were looking for "one gun to rule them all". The ability to scale the grip size and trigger reach up or down to fit the shooter is a great benefit when you are trying to make one gun work for 40k officers / agents.

[Unobtanium]

I had a very serious sniper tell me ''Your rifle is either in your hand or locked up, F'tards will diddle with the knobs /settings etc.... , when a shot goes through the wrong person because they diddled your rifle they will not own up to it and you are screwed."

I have heard that from tons of people. This is why I and everyone I know "paints in" their zero knobs adjustments etc. once zeroed. It isn't perfect, but it can let you know if someone's been dicking around with your weapon obviously so.

Me personally? I work in healthcare. I would never take a syringe from someone I didn't personally know (draw a weapon from an armory that had people diddling with it, etc. maybe?), and inject the contents into a PICC line (fire a bullet into the air at another person). That's just all sorts of kill someone and lose your license and go to jail type thoughts of bad. Jeez.

[JodyH]

We are doing this for the agent out in the field so they can get what they need to do their job. But the only way correct a problem is to pinpoint the problem. The alternative is to put our heads in the sand and pretend that all is rosy.
Rock on!
Sometimes the only way to right the ship is to toss everything overboard.

[HCM]

So Fox news has picked this up and in the process confirmed everything Michael Crichton ever said about the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect.

Border Patrol agents say agency’s gun recall puts them in danger

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/11/12/border-patrol-agents-say-agencys-gun-recall-puts-them-in-danger/

[Don Gwinn]

UH - OH they are on to you, 5Pins.
http://downtrend.com/vsaxena/white-house-m4-carbine-rifles-gun-grab/

Turns out was just an Obama conspiracy to disarm the Border Patrol all along! Or something.

[LittleLebowski]

Yeah, the Fox article is pretty terrible. Googling the "trainer" they quote is interesting.....

[LittleLebowski]

Second article is up:

http://www.gunnuts.net/2014/11/18/us-border-patrol-rifle-article-part-ii/

[JodyH]

I just spent two days shooting with and BS'ing with multiple USBP guys who know exactly what's up. Their version of what's going on does not match up with the Internet version of what's going on.

[TGS]

I'm not sure I agree that replacing the M4 with a 11.5" variant is smart. If the agency couldn't maintain an M4, why would they be able to maintain an SBR with an even tighter PM regimen and shorter service lives? Seems to me that a mid length 14.5"-16" would be a better choice, given the backend operations (lack thereof).

[JodyH]

The field guys who know carbines aren't impressed with the switch to sbr's. The guys who stand around with a carbine at inspection stations or who are always in and out of vehicles with their carbines like the switch.

[LittleLebowski]

I just spent two days shooting with and BS'ing with multiple USBP guys who know exactly what's up. Their version of what's going on does not match up with the Internet version of what's going on.

Shoot me a PM if you like.

[Chuck Haggard]

I concur ref going to shorter guns. Out in the boonies I'd much rather have a 16" gun, or even a 14.5, vs the shorties. Even indoors I find there to be little reason for needing anything shorter than a 16" gun.

[LittleLebowski]

I think ditching both the UMP .40 and the M4 makes sense. With regards to what agents in the field are saying, the guys (double digits) I have heard from that gave me the raw data for this second article, range from New York to California to Arizona and in between. I just got a word of thanks on this second article from a field agent, not 15 minutes ago.

[Chuck Haggard]

The whole bent barrel thing is pegging my "full retard" meter.

How in the hell do they have that many bent barrels, and if they don't then how in the hell is their armorer program so inept that they are deadlining barrels as bent that ain't bent?

[LittleLebowski]

The whole bent barrel thing is pegging my "full retard" meter.

How in the hell do they have that many bent barrels, and if they don't then how in the hell is their armorer program so inept that they are deadlining barrels as bent that ain't bent?

After talking things over with Sully and many agents, it sounds like the inspectors were looking for reasons to deadline barrels. Also, remember that if the barrel isn't squeaky clean, it will read as bent.

[Chuck Haggard]

After talking things over with Sully and many agents, it sounds like the inspectors were looking for reasons to deadline barrels. Also, remember that if the barrel isn't squeaky clean, it will read as bent.

Glad they are so free with taking working guns out of the field, and throwing my taxpayer money around for no good reason.

[LittleLebowski]

Glad they are so free with taking working guns out of the field, and throwing my taxpayer money around for no good reason.

Yeah, it would be different if they were actually.....replacing the rifles they took right then and there.

[Chuck Haggard]

My question woulda been, assuming my carbine had just passed a qual and was holding decent groups at the 100, who gives a shit if the gauge says the barrel is "bent"?

[LittleLebowski]

My question woulda been, assuming my carbine had just passed a qual and was holding decent groups at the 100, who gives a shit if the gauge says the barrel is "bent"?

That happened to quite a few agents.

[czech6]

Often when dealing when governmental organizations, embarrassment is one of the few catalyst for change. Seemingly straight forward issues have to be escalated to the point of a full blown crisis to fix minor problems.

It would seem pretty straight forward, that agents in the field need to be assigned their own rifles, that the rifles need to be inspected on at least an annual basis and replaced/rebuilt at regular intervals. These are some of the few guys in law enforcement that have a high probability of being in a long range gunfight. There also some of the few guys that have a reasonable expectation of confronting a foreign military. Yet, look at the situation they were in before this hit the news, pooled rifles of dubious quality. The real story IMO, was for an agency as large as ICE and with a $5.5ish billion budget, why was fielding enough rifles an issue in the first place? I'm not even going to say leadership, but there's a serious management break down, when the stakes for the guys in the field are as high as they, and they don't have the basic equipment they need.

Unfortunately guys in the field may have to take a short term screwing, in order to sufficiently embarrass the management in Washington and get a fire lit under their butts to do the right thing. Sometimes it as simple as, if you stick with the status quo, nothing changes until someone dies.

Edited: If the way agents treat their vehicles is any indication of a general attitude towards pooled equipment, bent barrels and other damage from abuse/neglect wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[TGS]

Czech, are you talking about ICE or CBP?



Edited: If the way agents treat their vehicles is any indication of a general attitude towards pooled equipment, bent barrels and other damage from abuse/neglect wouldn't surprise me in the least.

I did some pretty atrocious things, and saw some pretty atrocious things, performed to the AR15 platform when I was in the military. Dudes falling on top of them, rifles dropped from 6 feet onto concrete, ect. They're very robust rifles, unlike the popular opinion among fudds would have anyone believe. From my experience, I really can't imagine a bent barrel coming from an agent being careless, unless he/she was careless about letting the carbine be used as a brace for heavy equipment.

Also, IME from emergency services and the military, pooled equipment just about never gets the respect that personally owned equipment would. Well, except for firetrucks. Firemen don't really have any work to do like the other public services or military, so their day is usually spent as a massive oogie-cookie over the maltese cross and ludicrously expensive apparatus.

[Wayne Dobbs]

The barrel straightness guage is .219 OD and it takes a very nasty barrel to stop one. I've seen one (last year) and it had over 20K rounds down the bore and hadn't ever been bore cleaned (!!!) according to the owner. 15-20 strokes of a solvent soaked bronze brush and a patch out job and it passed. I don't know what's happening with the BP guns but I'd guess there are multiple factors of stupid involved. As an armorer trainer for Colt, I see lots of this in microcosm in my travels of organizations just not doing the simplest PM routines that would prevent this kind of mess.

[Jeep]

The barrel straightness guage is .219 OD and it takes a very nasty barrel to stop one. I've seen one (last year) and it had over 20K rounds down the bore and hadn't ever been bore cleaned (!!!) according to the owner. 15-20 strokes of a solvent soaked bronze brush and a patch out job and it passed. I don't know what's happening with the BP guns but I'd guess there are multiple factors of stupid involved. As an armorer trainer for Colt, I see lots of this in microcosm in my travels of organizations just not doing the simplest PM routines that would prevent this kind of mess.

My experience is that PM generally only happens in organizations if the leadership is willing to leave their offices and conduct occasional equipment inspections themselves. . . .

[Rich]

The field guys who know carbines aren't impressed with the switch to sbr's. The guys who stand around with a carbine at inspection stations or who are always in and out of vehicles with their carbines like the switch.

Getting in and out of vehicle no wonder they want a shorter carbine. That and clearing houses .

I use to laugh at 10.5 and 11.5 5.56mm carbines thinking they are worthless . But with the big selection of B.B. Ammo like TSX & TTBC I think the 5.56mm SBR have a place.

If I didn't have to go a do all the paper work and pay cash for a tax stamp and have a S# engraved I would give up my 14.5+phantoms carbines for 11.5`s or better yet 9inch 6.8.