View Full Version : New "RDS" optic about to hit the market
Unobtanium
10-22-2014, 06:10 AM
Imagine an Eotech styled optic with an etched reticle that takes CR123 batteries and has clearer glass than an Eotech. 1 MOA dot likely.
Leupold is about to dump such a beast on the market. Astigmatism sufferers rejoice!
Any word on battery life?
Whoever comes up with an optic with Eotech's reticle and something even approaching Aimpoint's battery life is going to make a lot of money.
nycnoob
10-22-2014, 07:10 AM
It sounds like the Trijicon SRS (Sealed Reflex Sight) (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13623-Trijicon-SRS-(Sealed-Reflex-Sight)) Jay Cunningham has a thread and a review.
Jay Cunningham
10-22-2014, 07:27 AM
The SRS does not have an etched reticle.
Byron
10-22-2014, 08:22 AM
...Leupold is about to dump such a beast on the market....
Interesting! Any links to more info? Or any idea when more info will be released to the public?
Whoever comes up with an optic with Eotech's reticle and something even approaching Aimpoint's battery life is going to make a lot of money.
My thought as well. That's something I've wanted for years.
For whatever it's worth, I own one EOTech and multiple Aimpoints. While I prefer the EOTech reticle, I barely ever use that optic. For my taste, the size, weight, and battery life of the Aimpoint offerings overshadow the reticle difference.
Chuck Haggard
10-22-2014, 08:35 AM
Why does everybody prefer the EO reticle?
I'm asking because I know several people that when pinned down to answer have never put things on the timer, they just think it looks cool, or they "feel" that it's better.
Why does everybody prefer the EO reticle?
I'm asking because I know several people that when pinned down to answer have never put things on the timer, they just think it looks cool, or they "feel" that it's better.
A few of my former mil friends have used both and preferred the EOTech to a man. They felt it was superior at speed including shooting from vehicles at very odd angles, body positions etc. One of them had his Iraq tour EOT that had hardly any paint left on it; he said it had a glitch where it ATE batteries and his didn't give a single fuck. He'd put in new batts daily. He really liked that sight.
rob_s
10-22-2014, 08:51 AM
Why does everybody prefer the EO reticle?
I'm asking because I know several people that when pinned down to answer have never put things on the timer, they just think it looks cool, or they "feel" that it's better.
I think it's very hard to quantify because (A) there is probably more emotion and subjectivity to the opinion than there is document-able fact and (B) proficiency and familiarity play a part. If you take a guy who has been shooting one optic or the other exclusively for a couple of years and several thousand rounds and hand him the other optic he's probably going to be slower/less-accurate for a time as he acclimates. So you take a guy who likes the Eotech reticule because his "mil buddies" told him to, and he's been shooting it for several years, run him through a drill with the Eotech on his gun and then hand him another gun with a different optic on it and run him through the same drill, you're probably going to see a self-fulfilling prophecy in action.
All of which to say, it probably doesn't matter why. Some people like one reticule, some people like the other, some people find that other perceived factors (reliability, battery life, whatever) outweigh even a preference for a different reticule.
My guess is even if the Aimpoint had the Eotech reticule, or the Eotech had the perceived durability or confirmed battery life of the Aimpoint, you'd still have people staunchly in one camp or another and unable to articulate why.
My eyes often see the Aimpoint round dot as anything but round. Is the EO better, worse or the same in this regard?
My eyes often see the Aimpoint round dot as anything but round. Is the EO better, worse or the same in this regard?
I see most Aimpoint (esp T1s) dots as a 12 moa pixilated stripe. BAD. I find the EOTech dot better, still pixilated pretty good but more or less round . . . errr star shaped I guess.
I've seen some crazy good offhand shooting on a chest sized steel plate at 200 yards by Frank Proctor with an EOT. I'm guessing his vision is pretty tight though.
Byron
10-22-2014, 09:41 AM
Why does everybody prefer the EO reticle?
I'm asking because I know several people that when pinned down to answer have never put things on the timer, they just think it looks cool, or they "feel" that it's better.
I've never done any timer comparisons between my EOTech and Aimpoint. Given how lopsided my shooting time has been between the two, I'm not confident that it would be an apples-to-apples comparison, as noted by Rob.
So if the threshold is hard data, then I readily admit I cannot adequately make a case for my preference.
With that said, it is my perception that my eye locates the EO reticle more easily. If it's just a matter of shouldering the rifle from a ready position, both reticles are the same since I'm indexing to the target (just like a good drawstroke). If it's a matter of my eye and the optic meeting from weird angles, however, the EO just grabs my attention easier. This can be mitigated if I increase the brightness of the Aimpoint, but then it's brighter than I prefer.
Another difference for me is precision of shot placement. With the Aimpoint, my brain wants a more precise aiming point before it sends the "go" signal to my finger. With the EO, at appropriate ranges, my brain sees the big ring inside the aiming area and sends the "go" signal without chasing an unnecessarily high level of precision.
I absolutely realize that this last issue could be fully eliminated through training. After all, "seeing what you need to see" is not a new concept, and applies to any sight system. But I find that it's easier for my brain to see what it needs to see on the EO reticle, despite spending more trigger time behind the Aimpoints.
Finally... and this is a huge one... Aimpoints "dots" look like crazy stars to me. Even wearing prescription glasses, I don't get a crisp dot (not sure if that means I need a better prescription, but everything else in the world looks crisp as hell when I wear them). The EO reticle is vastly superior for my eyes though: I actually see a dot.
Again, I still prefer to mount Aimpoints on my carbines and continue to use them, despite my astigmatism. If I need maximum precision, I peek through the aperture on my rear BUIS, turning the star back into a dot. When I don't need maximum precision I accept the blurriness of the star and drive on.
My guess is even if the Aimpoint had the Eotech reticule, or the Eotech had the perceived durability or confirmed battery life of the Aimpoint, you'd still have people staunchly in one camp or another and unable to articulate why.
I would guess the exact same thing, and think you make good points in your post.
My eyes often see the Aimpoint round dot as anything but round. Is the EO better, worse or the same in this regard?
Don't know how universal my experience is, but the EO is significantly better for me.
benEzra
10-22-2014, 10:57 AM
Why does everybody prefer the EO reticle?
I'm asking because I know several people that when pinned down to answer have never put things on the timer, they just think it looks cool, or they "feel" that it's better.
Large window is very forgiving of eye placement, the reticle is very fast at close range, the dot is sub-MOA (as small as your eyes, or your eyes + magnifier, can resolve, since it's diffraction-limited) for precision.
The downside is that it takes more energy to generate the hologram than it does to simply light a 2MOA LED (Aimpoint), which is why even the 2xCR123 models only have about 1000 hours of battery life. And the laser/diffraction grating setup is a little more complex and bulky than a regular RDS.
nalesq
10-22-2014, 11:19 AM
The EOTech dot is sharper to my slightly astigmatic eyes than the Aimpoint dot as well.
Moreover, I find the circle around the dot of the EO reticle is useful for dealing with sight offset issues at close range and leading moving targets.
shane45
10-22-2014, 12:00 PM
I DID compare the eotech and aimpoints on the clock. Despite hating the way the eotech looks to me, my times were pretty much identical. Since there was essentially no difference, I go with the one I prefer and also happens to have the battery advantage etc etc.
Shane
Cecil Burch
10-22-2014, 12:13 PM
Why does everybody prefer the EO reticle?
I'm asking because I know several people that when pinned down to answer have never put things on the timer, they just think it looks cool, or they "feel" that it's better.
Because of my particular astigmatism, I see the Aimpoint dot in my R1 as a jagged line that is about 6MOA long. Using my buddy's Eotech, I see a perfect dot inside a clear circle.
I still use the R1 due to the superior battery life and that it never turns off. But if Eotech, or someone else, could get their reticule with the Aimpoint pluses, I would switch in a heartbeat.
1slow
10-22-2014, 12:21 PM
I went to T1 after having issues on several units with EO durability. Battery compartment springs seals etc....
The huge majority of people I talked with at Pat Rogers carbine classes favored Aimpoint for reliability and durability. I still like the EO 1moa dot and 65 moa circle better but use T1 as my go to.
Chuck Haggard
10-22-2014, 01:57 PM
Even before I got my eyeballs lasered I could see both the EO and AP reticles without too much issue, so I never had that problem.
I have broken three personal EOs, and seen over 20 others shit the bed.
On long call outs the EO will auto-off, that can be a problem. The EO eats batteries at an alarming rate. They die in recoil, battery boxes go TU, etc. I never have to bail out of the car and turn my Aimpoint on, all I have to do is rack the charging handle.
I have pinned some folks down on the "why" issue and basically it comes down to they think the reticle on the EO looks cooler.
I have not noted the 1 or 2 or 4 MOA makes a damn bit of difference in accuracy at distance for me.
My eyes often see the Aimpoint round dot as anything but round. Is the EO better, worse or the same in this regard?
I see Aimpoints as a bloom/starburst, especially as the brightness goes up. The EoTech is noticeably pixellated (IIRC, that has to do with how it's projected), but otherwise sharp.
Byron
10-22-2014, 02:15 PM
Even before I got my eyeballs lasered I could see both the EO and AP reticles without too much issue, so I never had that problem.
I'm jealous :(
orionz06
10-22-2014, 02:19 PM
The Cthulhu reticle of the Aimpoint is enough for me to pay attention to what is coming. If it can come close on battery life I'll be happy. Even 1 year would be nice.
JM Campbell
10-22-2014, 02:33 PM
The chtulu reticle of the Aimpoint is enough for me to pay attention to what is coming. If it can come close on battery life I'll be happy. Even 1 year would be nice.
What is this you speak of? Chtulu?
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rob_s
10-22-2014, 02:48 PM
So is this thread about Aimpoints, Eotechs, or the Leupold new-hotness?
Evidently there is a screen grab somewhere from a VTAC video that purports to show one.
My eyes -- combination of an Aimpoint and magnifier is useless. Just the Aimpoint is fine for quick and dirty, but a problem when shooting groups at 100 or 200 yards.
Chuck Haggard
10-22-2014, 02:53 PM
So is this thread about Aimpoints, Eotechs, or the Leupold new-hotness?
Evidently there is a screen grab somewhere from a VTAC video that purports to show one.
Somebody mentioned wanting an EO style reticle, which them caused me to steer things off into EI Tech reticla land.
If this new optic is etched then it should work regardless if the power goes dead or not. If it's got a useful reticle, it's tough, and good run time, then it's likely to be a winner.
How's that?
Byron
10-22-2014, 02:54 PM
Evidently there is a screen grab somewhere from a VTAC video that purports to show one.
Thanks for the heads up. Found this on Google:
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?6424-NEW-Leupold-LCO
And now that I know it's named the LCO, here's more talk/detail:
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?159348-NEW-Leupold-LCO-optic
Savage Hands
10-22-2014, 03:06 PM
Imagine an Eotech styled optic with an etched reticle that takes CR123 batteries and has clearer glass than an Eotech. 1 MOA dot likely.
Leupold is about to dump such a beast on the market. Astigmatism sufferers rejoice!
Aww yes!
rob_s
10-22-2014, 03:29 PM
Somebody mentioned wanting an EO style reticle, which them caused me to steer things off into EI Tech reticla land.
If this new optic is etched then it should work regardless if the power goes dead or not. If it's got a useful reticle, it's tough, and good run time, then it's likely to be a winner.
How's that?
I like it! ;)
My guess would be that the reticule would be more Prismatic than Eotech (minuscule difference, i know), especially if it's etched like everyone seems to think it will be.
I'm glad I didn't pull the trigger on a Leu Prismatic last month.
What is this you speak of? Chtulu?
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Yeah that was me mid-Summer when these guys took a thread all Chtulu. They wouldn't tell me. I had to look up. ;) It's a thing.
JM Campbell
10-22-2014, 04:40 PM
Hmmmm....
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu
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I am an old school Aimpoint type and I have several Aimpoint's and EoTech's. Aimpoint durability and battery life cannot be argued, however I do prefer the Eo reticle for a few reasons. I am splitting hairs here, but I am known for that. For most individuals, quite frankly their skill sets / needs may not show them a definable difference or a difference that may matter for their application. Up close I am faster with the Eo, again splitting hairs. At close distances I do not use the center MOA dot but rather use the 65 MOA ring as a large dot so to speak. Also up close for precision shots I am quicker with the Eo as I utilize the bottom hash at the 65 MOA ring as the dot. At longer distances, I very much prefer the finer or smaller dot for precision.
Other benefits of the Eo reticle for myself is that I will use the 9 or 3 o'clock hash as hold off references under certain distance / wind situations, or more so I can quickly extrapolate hold off distance quickly similar in theory to a mil dot reticle. I also use the 65 MOA ring as a way of ranging, definitely without magnification it is limited but has some good advantages if you understand ranging with mil dots or similar. At distance I also use the bottom hash as a measurable point on a target in which to more quickly come up with a hold off. I use the Eo reticle for shooting moving targets, either tracking or ambush methods. I also like that the size of the Eo window allows for even more variation in rifle position in improvised shooting positions. There is more leeway to have a less than perfect placement behind the rifle.
I will note that I have owned several generations of EoTech's and have seen all of the various issues that have come and gone with EoTech. I will note that I have 3 of the single battery / transverse battery compartment EXPS models and I have not seen any issues as of yet. The oldest being at least 3 years old, or when they were first released. Not a large sample but we did just pick up 50 of them recently and I will be tracking durability results.
As for any new product I am never "married" to any weapon, piece of gear, or product. I am always hoping for something better to come along. I would love to see a new optic that combined many of my desires in one unit. I look forward to checking out this new Leupold optic.
Trajan
10-22-2014, 10:42 PM
For you guys with astigmatisms: Go see an optometrist. I have an astigmatism that causes an aimpoint to look like an eotech. With correction, it just looks like a tiny dot. A good eye doctor can fix this assuming it's not horrifically bad (ie above 3).
Eotech uncorrected looks even worse for me.
Originally I really liked the idea of Eotechs, but I have come to appreciate the simplicity of my 4MOA T-1.
Unobtanium
10-22-2014, 11:33 PM
For you guys with astigmatisms: Go see an optometrist. I have an astigmatism that causes an aimpoint to look like an eotech. With correction, it just looks like a tiny dot. A good eye doctor can fix this assuming it's not horrifically bad (ie above 3).
Eotech uncorrected looks even worse for me.
Originally I really liked the idea of Eotechs, but I have come to appreciate the simplicity of my 4MOA T-1.
How would a doctor correct astigmatism?
-Laser surgery=Risks/money
-Contacts=Have you ever tried to put them in at 2am just having woken up while knowing you have seconds to grab your weapon and make ready?
-Glasses=Ever tried to find them at 2am?
Also, assuming a battery or electronics go down, which is ALWAYS a possibility with ANY optic, the etched reticle is the fastest BUIS around.
Yes, correct the vision, by all means, but this LCO, if executed as well as I hope, offers a legitimate game-changer for many.
How would a doctor correct astigmatism?
-Laser surgery=Risks/money
-Contacts=Have you ever tried to put them in at 2am just having woken up while knowing you have seconds to grab your weapon and make ready?
-Glasses=Ever tried to find them at 2am?
Also, assuming a battery or electronics go down, which is ALWAYS a possibility with ANY optic, the etched reticle is the fastest BUIS around.
Yes, correct the vision, by all means, but this LCO, if executed as well as I hope, offers a legitimate game-changer for many.
That sounds real good to me except for one unknown factor--price. Any idea how much this miracle worker will cost?
That sounds real good to me except for one unknown factor--price. Any idea how much this miracle worker will cost?
On another forum, I read MSRP is $799.
Chuck Haggard
10-23-2014, 08:41 AM
How would a doctor correct astigmatism?
-Laser surgery=Risks/money
-Contacts=Have you ever tried to put them in at 2am just having woken up while knowing you have seconds to grab your weapon and make ready?
-Glasses=Ever tried to find them at 2am?
Also, assuming a battery or electronics go down, which is ALWAYS a possibility with ANY optic, the etched reticle is the fastest BUIS around.
Yes, correct the vision, by all means, but this LCO, if executed as well as I hope, offers a legitimate game-changer for many.
I used to have really bad progressive myopia, so yes, I know what it's like to be reaching for glasses at O dark 30, and you should too. Seeing your target to PID is kind of a big deal.
If I was worried about home defense carbine and not general purpose, and I had astigmatism issues as bad as some of ya'll describe, then I'd go with a combo of laser and irons. At home defense distances in the dark the irons stand out rather nicely against that 120-1000 lumen hot spot down range.
Jay Cunningham
10-23-2014, 09:42 AM
If I was worried about home defense carbine and not general purpose, and I had astigmatism issues as bad as some of ya'll describe, then I'd go with a combo of laser and irons. At home defense distances in the dark the irons stand out rather nicely against that 120-1000 lumen hot spot down range.
I think this is great advice.
I def agree on the laser part, but my experience is that aperture sights are lousy darker conditions, especially with eyeglasses if you normally are a contacts wearer. My issue with the red dot is shooting groups at distance, and any deformation isn't an issue for me for HD style shooting.
Now a laser and good open sights like HD style on a pistol, as I have on my Benelli, would also be fine.
I def agree on the laser part, but my experience is that aperture sights are lousy darker conditions, especially with eyeglasses if you normally are a contacts wearer. My issue with the red dot is shooting groups at distance, and any deformation isn't an issue for me for HD style shooting.
Now a laser and good open sights like HD style on a pistol, as I have on my Benelli, would also be fine.
Same here. Hits are find on close ranges CQB out to 25 yds etc. But I don't even presently own an RDS and just go with irons and white light for HD and magnified optics hunting.
rob_s
10-23-2014, 10:55 AM
I def agree on the laser part, but my experience is that aperture sights are lousy darker conditions, especially with eyeglasses if you normally are a contacts wearer. My issue with the red dot is shooting groups at distance, and any deformation isn't an issue for me for HD style shooting.
Now a laser and good open sights like HD style on a pistol, as I have on my Benelli, would also be fine.
At indoor distances, indexing only the front sight on a target will get perfectly acceptable hits for most people. At one time this was taught pretty commonly, but I assume that since optics became so commonplace it stopped being relevant. It works especially well in very dark rooms with a weaponlight. And it even takes a bit of the holdover issue out of the equation!
But, as you point out, the RDS is also fine for even the most astigmatized at those distances, so it works just as well. I suppose one might argue that if I can't use the optic at distance, and there's a trick to using irons at close range, why spend the money and add the weight of the optic?
Chuck Haggard
10-23-2014, 11:00 AM
At inside the house ranges I was shockingly fast with just indexing off of my cheek weld, ignoring the rear sight, and bracketing the target with the front sights ears, ignore the top of the front sight, the rounds at close range will hit where the base of the front sight sits.
In darkness, I just looked over the rear sight, to take the aperture out of the equation. Of course, if you are smart enough to know to do that, or use the optic tube (dot off) with the front sight, or other work arounds, it probably isn't important what you have on the carbine.
Without my eyeglasses or contacts, the laser is straight up the best solution for me in dark conditions. Or the shotgun with buck. :)
Coyotesfan97
10-23-2014, 03:32 PM
I've never liked Eotechs. The reticle is too cluttered for my tastes. I like the single dot of the Aimpoint.
We had Eotechs on our Sage guns. The batteries were always dead because they didn't get turned off.
I have astigmatisms in both eyes. The red dot has always been clear to me unless the intensity gets turned way up.
Include me in the eyeglasses group. I must be a little OCD but glasses, gun, flashlight, phones always go in the same spot on the nightstand. It cuts down on the fumbling.
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laser
The ones who gripe about shape for nothing better than shape's sake will still pitch a bitch, once they shine their lazerz on a matte, diffuse surface and discover that they almost universally fall in an oblong or hourglass shape AND tend to bloom. :p
I must be a little OCD but glasses, gun, flashlight, phones always go in the same spot on the nightstand. It cuts down on the fumbling.
Being a little OCD in those circumstances is a very good thing.
Unobtanium
10-29-2014, 10:45 PM
Learned today that it's NOT an etched reticle. :(
Imagine an Eotech styled optic with an etched reticle that takes CR123 batteries and has clearer glass than an Eotech. 1 MOA dot likely.
Leupold is about to dump such a beast on the market. Astigmatism sufferers rejoice!
Was this at SHOT?
Default.mp3
02-02-2015, 12:25 PM
Was this at SHOT?
I assume that this was suppose to be about the Leupold LCO: http://www.leupold.com/tactical/scopes/lco/
LSP972
02-02-2015, 02:11 PM
My eyes often see the Aimpoint round dot as anything but round.
Could be because, with those tiny 2MOA "dots", in anything other than near-absolute darkness you gotta crank it up to 7+ to see the damn thing, and it blooms as a result.
I intensely dislike anything smaller than a 4MOA dot due to this. IMO, if you need the "precision" of the small dot, you need a telescope, not an RDS. I have 2MOA H-1s on mine and the wife's carbines; they work, but if I ever run across somebody local with a 4MOA example who wants to trade, and his/hers is in the same excellent shape as mine... done deal. No long-distance trades, because I want to be able to yank the 2MOA off of mine, install the 4MOA and go zero the sucker right then.
.
Lomshek
02-02-2015, 06:41 PM
I assume that this was suppose to be about the Leupold LCO: http://www.leupold.com/tactical/scopes/lco/
And only $1250! What a bargain.
Dagga Boy
02-03-2015, 08:08 AM
Could be because, with those tiny 2MOA "dots", in anything other than near-absolute darkness you gotta crank it up to 7+ to see the damn thing, and it blooms as a result.
I intensely dislike anything smaller than a 4MOA dot due to this. IMO, if you need the "precision" of the small dot, you need a telescope, not an RDS. I have 2MOA H-1s on mine and the wife's carbines; they work, but if I ever run across somebody local with a 4MOA example who wants to trade, and his/hers is in the same excellent shape as mine... done deal. No long-distance trades, because I want to be able to yank the 2MOA off of mine, install the 4MOA and go zero the sucker right then.
.
Holy crap.....somebody who gets it? If I had a nickel for every time I have to listen to drone on about needing a 1MoA dot because the usually shoot 1/2 minute groups and the Aimpoint "holds them back".
Let me check and see if I have a 4MOA micro around here somewhere.
joshs
02-03-2015, 11:55 AM
Holy crap.....somebody who gets it? If I had a nickel for every time I have to listen to drone on about needing a 1MoA dot because the usually shoot 1/2 minute groups and the Aimpoint "holds them back".
Almost as bad as the "X MoA dot completely obscures the target" argument, which completely ignores the fact that dot size is pretty much irrelevant to "obscuring the target" at any distance except for the zero intersections or very close to them. I've never found it particularly more difficult to hold a 4 MoA dot over a target than a 2 MoA dot. Not that I particularly mind very much since it drives down the price on the 4 MoA Aimpoints.
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