Sig P226 DAO or DAK

[frankepc]

Anyone have any experience with either of these models that can give me some feed back?? I've shot Sigs before in the army, but never in these configurations. I love the ergonomics of the gun, the 226 has always pointed very natural for me and I can manipulate all the controls without moving my grip around. How would you guys rate the double action only configurations as far as quality, accuracy, reliability and which trigger is more beneficial for duty use? Both of the guns I'm looking at are about 4-6 years old, very good condition and have a stainless slide. Is there any benefit to this trigger system vs a glock which is what I currently carry? I've dry fired both guns and have no issues with the trigger weight.

[ToddG]

I'd opt for the DAK over the DAO, lighter trigger pull and the option for a shorter reset (at the expense of a weird heavier-than-normal trigger pull when you reset it short). But personally, I'd much prefer a standard DA/SA configuration SIG over either the DAO or DAK.

[frankepc]

Thanks for the quick response. I just did a search on the net in regards to my original post and found a similar thread on another forum were you discussed in further detail the pros and cons of the DAK vs DAO. Unfortunately for me my department only allows only DAO sig 226, S&W 5943 DAO, and glock 17 and 21.

[frankepc]

Anybody know what parts are required to change from standard DAO to the DAK system?

[Gadfly]

Our agency issued the Berretta 96D Brigadier (DAO .40) for years, with an optional personal purchase of a Sig 229 DAO if an officer felt it fit their hand better. What I personally found was the 96D trigger pull of around 8lbs was far superior to the Sig DAO trigger pull of 11 to 12 lbs. I opted to tote the 96D and never felt under gunned. My only complaint was how big the pistol was for only holding 11+1.

Time and purchase contracts move on, and for a brief time we had HK USPc LEM, and Glock 19 pistols in the mix. For the last few years we are issued the Sig 229 DAK, with an option to personally purchase a 229 DA/SA. The DAK system on my pistol comes in at about 6.5lbs, and is smooth as glass. I actually purchased the DA/SA model and installed the Short Reset Trigger with the intent of transitioning to it. I shot our qual course with both and score 98 to 99% with both pistols... No real difference except having to remember to de-cock with one...

All that being said, I stuck with the DAK. If I ever have to use it in the real world, I will probably be in full adrenaline dump mode, and I feel more comfortable with one consistent trigger pull. If I were shooting bulls-eye competition, I might want the DA/SA, but for fighting the DAK is the way to go. I would not go with the DAO, due to its heavier trigger pull. Also, it is possible to "short stroke" the DAO trigger by not allowing it to move all the way forward to reset. As Todd mentioned above, the DAK has a sort of half way reset. If you move the trigger all the way forward, you get your standard 6.5 to 7 lbs pull, but if you short stroke and catch the half way reset point, you get a shorter, heavier pull of 7.5 to 8 lbs. Still, a very manageable trigger pull even at the increased weight.

The DAK System is smooth, like a quality revolver, once it is broken in. Mine has been carried since 2005, and has close to 8K rounds through it. Its trigger is noticeably smoother than the new pistols we get shipped in. Like most guns, it will smooth out the more you shoot it. It is not quite as fast on hammer drills, or the el presidente as a Glock trigger, but for a fighting handgun it works... and works well.

All I have had to replace is the recoil spring and the take down lever. In all fairness, I have had to replace close to 25 takedown levers on our Sigs. Recoil just beats on them until the rivet pops lose and the take down lever spins free…

Stay safe...

[ToddG]

Anybody know what parts are required to change from standard DAO to the DAK system?

Unless your frame is DAK-compatible, you cannot. Otherwise, you need to change a handful of parts including the trigger bar and hammer.


I shot our qual course with both and score 98 to 99% with both pistols... No real difference except having to remember to de-cock with one...

Assuming it's the qual course I'm thinking of (250 points?) the times are very generous especially past the initial contact-distance part. I wouldn't expect the benefits of the DA/SA to show themselves under such easy time constraints. If you're consistently in the 240's then I'm willing to bet you're beating the PAR times by a significant margin already anyway, especially when you're given 20sec at 25yd.


In all fairness, I have had to replace close to 25 takedown levers on our Sigs. Recoil just beats on them until the rivet pops lose and the take down lever spins free…

In all the years I worked at SIG, I saw that only once on one of my guns, a P229 in 357 with somewhere between 13k and 14k through it. The exact notes I took when it happened:takedown lever loosened (lever and cylinder no longer move as single unit)
lever rotated 45deg clockwise during shooting, causing the top front edge to dig into the slide just forward of the takedown notch; result was that the slide was completely locked in place and could not be moved forwards or backwards by hand even with significant force; only fix was to take a small hammer and bang the lever back into normal position


I filed a report in accordance with our ISO procedures regarding the failure but my boss (who is still with the company) instructed me to retract it. That was in January of 2006. Within a couple of years, the problem became so widespread the company considered a complete recall. There is absolutely no reason that part should behave that way. For years it worked fine. The version your agency tested worked fine. But SIG changed the company sourcing the part and the rest is unfortunate history.

[Gadfly]

Assuming it's the qual course I'm thinking of (250 points?) the times are very generous especially past the initial contact-distance part.

Yes Todd, it is the qual course you are thinking of. The times are VERY, VERY generous. I consider shooting a 245 having a bad day. I shoot IDPA with a stock gen 3 and gen 4 Glock 22. I am much faster with the Glocks, but given my options for duty carry, I feel very confident with the DAK. I must admit I now drink the "one-type-of-trigger-pull" kool aid. We have many shooters whine and complain about the DAK during transition, but most like it now. I actually prefer it to our old USP compact LEMs. There are perhaps a dozen who have purchased DA/SA for duty carry.

Additionally, my duty back up is a G26. Since policy dictated that your primary and secondary weapon must both be DAO, or both DA/SA, I would have to give up my G26 if I switched to the Sig in DA/SA.

We have about 225 Sig 229's and about 100 Sig 239's in my office. I have yet to replace parts on a 239. I have 17 broken take down levers in my tool kit. I threw away several before I started to save them. The other armorer in my office has replaced a few as well. When this problem was kicked up my chain of command, the response was to send me 50 new takedown levers with a note basically telling me to "replace as needed".... My pistol was one of the first batch issued nation wide, and one of the first to break between 3k to 4 k rounds. My frame is marked "Made in Germany" in '04. I attempted to find a pattern of breakage, but with guns marked “made in USA” from '06 to '08, some marked "made in the USA" on the frame, others "made in the USA" on the slide, the list is all over the place...

[ToddG]

Gadfly -- Origin of the frame is no indication of which revision takedown lever a gun has. Regardless of where the frame was manufactured, all your guns were assembled in the US with parts sourced by the US company. Your takedown levers could be made in Germany, the US, Canada, Israel, Indonesia, or anywhere else on the planet.

Finding a G26-sized DA/SA backup that even had a chance of getting approved is probably snowball-in-hell probability. That's an interesting policy and not one I'd heard before.

[Gadfly]

Origin of the frame is no indication of which revision takedown lever a gun has.

I was not sure if where it was assembled mattered or not. I checked out of curiosity, but there was no rhyme or reason I could find...


That's an interesting policy and not one I'd heard before

Yeah, primary and secondary pistols possesed by and individual must be in the same trigger configuration of both DAO, or both DA/SA. Interesting side note, all of the Glock 26s were supposed to be retired along with our Glock 19's when we went to Sig 229s and 239's a few years back. Nasty rumor is when all of our headquarters types went to the range to transition to the 239, there was such a dislike for the new pistol that the "approved pistol" list was re-written to grandfather in the Glock 26 so all the higher ups could keep the little pistol they liked. At least that is the "urban legend"...

[ToddG]

Not an urban legend.

--
Todd "Snopes" Green

[Jimichanga]

To the OP, I vote for the SRT configuration if you must have a Sig.

From the sound of it, I work for the same agency as Gadfly and I am not a fan of the 229DAK to say the least. I am not alone. Most of us bought G26s when they took away our G19s. Our qualification scores went down on the easy qualification course. Many of our female agents or males with smaller hands have trouble shooting the 229DAK.

The DAK trigger is an administrator's/lawyer’s delight … heavy and long. The older agents who shot revolvers back in the day don’t seem to mind the trigger but the younger folks seem to prefer striker fired guns. On the plus side, the Sig is accurate as hell and the DAK is smooth (heavy and long with a long reset... but smooth). However, in the modern area of polymer pistols, the 226/229 is a thick boat anchor and not fun to carry concealed.

I carry the G26 everywhere and the P229 stays locked in my filing cabinet in my office. On quarterly range days the 229 comes out of the office when I qualify and then gets locked it back into the cabinet.
On scheduled enforcement operations policy requires the P229 to be carried. So it goes in the lockbox in the car and the G26 gets stuffed with G17 mags.

Word on the street is that the powers that be are opening up the list of personally owned weapons due to the strong dissatisfaction with the P229DAK in the field.
If that doesn’t happen shortly, I have a P229 with the SRT that I recently purchased on my own dime. I greatly prefer it to the DAK but would dump it in a heartbeat for a M&P or Glock if the policy changes.

[ToddG]

Our qualification scores went down on the easy qualification course.

While I'm not trying to defend the DAK, I will say that we saw a very consistent pattern when it came to DAK adopters:

Agencies that brought us in to teach a transition program (which I wrote, so I'm biased :cool:) to instructors before guns were issued saw qual scores increase, often significantly.
Agencies that said they didn't need us to teach them anything about guns and shooting -- including the agency in question here -- saw qual scores decrease.
You also have to keep in mind that regardless of what the "official" trigger weight is, the average P229 DAK has a trigger pull around 7.5-7.75 pounds. The guns submitted for testing averaged out at 7.2# and that was before the extra-power mainspring was designed which adds about another half pound to the trigger pull. That's a significant increase over a 5.5 Glock trigger.

As you said, the guys with time on revolvers shoot the DAK easily. Folks whose experience has been primarily Glock are faced with something completely different and need to be trained properly. As for the grip circumference, prototype "slim grips" were developed in '06 and finally came online last year as part of the "E2" series. They are retrofittable on earlier P229s.

[Chaswick]

Is there a difference in the trigger that the agency in question specified on the issued DAK vs a "normal" DAK? I am not fond of the issue pistol but have shot a non issued P229 DAK and the trigger was a larger profile and seemed almost buttery smooth.

I can attest to the Glock 26 love...I carry mine everyday and now the Sig comes out only when mandated. Almost everyone in my office does the same. On qual days, the G26 scores never fall below 240...the Sigs seem dependent on if the shooter has good karma going that session. I want my old Glock 19 back...

Any word on when this new list of approved weapons will come out?

[ToddG]

The gun you tried probably lacked the "short" trigger that is requested by many LE agencies.

Train hard & stay safe!
Todd Louis Green, pistol-training.com (http://pistol-training.com)
Speed is the essence of war. Sun Tzu

[jslaker]

the trigger was a larger profile

Maybe your agency is issuing guns with the short trigger option (not to be confused with the short reset trigger)?

While they make the guns easier to handle for some people, my P226 had the short trigger installed when I got, and I had to swap in a standard trigger to make the gun work right for me. I have large hands, and I had to curl my index finger so much more to manipulate the short trigger that it was difficult for me to get proper leverage on the trigger. No such issue with the standard profile trigger.

Maybe that accounted for some of why the non-issue gun felt smoother to you?

[Chaswick]

I wonder if they would allow me to have the office armorer swap out the trigger for a normal profile one.

I will have to ask on Monday.

Anyway, since the Glock 40s apparently failed the trials and lost to Sig and HK to begin with and now with all the Glock Gen 4 problems, I would be surprised to see any new Glocks being authorized. I wonder if HQ is going to allow the P2000 for us investigative types as a primary handgun.

Maybe the new list will come out with new badges...;)

[Gadfly]

I was used to the 96D, so to me, the DAK feels light... That said, I would prefer a Glock over any of our current choices. Our agency is VERY hung up on using the ammo they issue. It is a good load, and I feel safe with it, but it beats the crap out of our pistols. I have heard rumors that the gen 4 Glock was built in response to the issues the .40 Glocks had in our last pistol trial. I hope Glock gets selected when the current contract is up. Most of our office wants them.

But, that does not make the DAK a bad gun. It just takes a bit of practice. Something most of our agents hate. I will never understand the amount of whining I hear at the range. I try to explain that they are getting paid (well) to come out and shoot. They are given a respectable quality pistol. They are given free ammo, and they can practice as much as they want. All for free. And yet they whine. I try to explain that most folks, and a good percent of cops, had to pay for ammo and training out of their own pockets. Most don't care. Even when you explain to them that the qual course is not about putting holes in paper, it is about practicing to survive a deadly force encounter... Still, most don't care. They shoot 71%, and they are happy.

I would love to see a wider variety of pistols to select from. One size dose not fit all. We have a 6'7" guy on the large end, down to a 5'2" female tipping the scales at 115 pounds. One gun to fit all is a tall order. I will keep my fingers crossed that some one up the chain will think of this and give us more than a full size 226 or 229 to chose from....

[Chaswick]

I hear you brother! I may not be crazy about the Sig, but it really is a decent pistol...and we have a few folks that manage 250 every stinkin time with that gun. I just cant seem to shoot it as well as the Glocks. I truly believe that I am the problem much more than any "flaw" with the gun itself. Having said all that, it's not like anyone is failing quals with it...it's is just a little harder to shoot to potential with...for me. We are lucky here that the majority of the agents really try to get good scores and get pissed at themselves when they dont meet their personal standards even though they qualed with room to spare and are out on the line again to try to improve. I also think the AFTEs are invaluable...more moving and shooting gets you thinking...

It really is a kick ass job! They just need to pick an agency name and stick to it...I will go broke buying new business cards!

[Gadfly]

It really is a kick ass job! They just need to pick an agency name and stick to it...I will go broke buying new business cards!

I have sat in the same office, on the same floor, doing the same type of job, for 13 years, and I have 3 different badges so far... The new name change will make it 4. By the time I retire, it will look like I switched jobs every few years, when I have been in the same damn place.

I bitch a lot, but it really is a kick ass job. I can't see doing anything else...

[fuse]

Dying to know where y'all work. It's like office-forum.com all up in here.

sent via Android 3.1

[frankepc]

So does anyone have the actual parts list to convert a DAO to DAK???

[Jimichanga]

While I'm not trying to defend the DAK, I will say that we saw a very consistent pattern when it came to DAK adopters:

Agencies that brought us in to teach a transition program (which I wrote, so I'm biased :cool:) to instructors before guns were issued saw qual scores increase, often significantly.
Agencies that said they didn't need us to teach them anything about guns and shooting -- including the agency in question here -- saw qual scores decrease.


I wish the agency would have sprung for the transition training. I imagine the average working agent's perception would not have been quite as frosty. Our transition consisted of getting issued the new pistol and shooting the qualification course. If you didn't qualify then you went to "remedial training"... which consisted of of the employee shooting the qual course until they passed.


So does anyone have the actual parts list to convert a DAO to DAK???

I've seen the parts at Top Gun Supply before. IIRC the conversion parts will cost you over $200. You can send the pistol back to the Sig "custom shop" and have them do it for a little less. The fact that the DAK conversion is not up on their website should be an indicator of its popularity. From what I have observed, people generally either love or hate the DAK system. If you sign up for the mailing list, the Sig "custom shop" has sales from time to time that are pretty good. Do a search at Sigforum and you can see who to buy the parts from and what it costs to have Sig do it.

[frankepc]

Disregard I just came back from the range. Although the 226 DAO points naturally and feels really good in the hand the length of pull is horrendous. the trigger seems very manageable until you try adding speed. Also if your use to shooting a gun with a short action and positive reset you'll probably end up short stroking using this configuration. Both guns I tried also failed to lock back after the magazine went empty. I guess I'm sticking to my glock 21until something else gets put on the approved list. Also the mechanical accuracy on the glock 21 seems to be a little better than the sig 226.

[Chaswick]

It is sounding like the agency in question here is going to allow personally owned Gen 4 Glock 40s, in addition to the issue Sig DAK...not sure when this is going to be finalized or announced. I would like to know what problems Oakland PD had with their Gen 4s before plopping down money on one myself.

[Gadfly]

It is sounding like the agency in question here is going to allow personally owned Gen 4 Glock 40s, in addition to the issue Sig DAK...not sure when this is going to be finalized or announced.

Can you say (or P.M.) the source? How credible do you think this is? My source/pals at HQ have not heard a whiff of this...

If true, I am VERY excited about the possibilities.:cool:

[Chaswick]

PM sent...

[frankepc]

Todd or anyone who has some experience with the sig internals. Sorry to bring this topic back up but I just got a deal on a sig that was too good to pass up. Not to mention a huge discount I got on the DAK parts for the P226. Anyways to get back on track If I installed a 19 lb main spring and a SIG or TJ custom short trigger (not SRT trigger) could this bring the length (or feel) as well as the weight to a more reasonable configuration. I'm trying to keep the gun within my department standards, some form of DAO (for duty use), as well as build something I can play around with in local matches.